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Monarchianism
04-12-2011, 02:17 AM
John 6:38 - For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

This one is the most confusing for me..
He came down from Heaven not to do His own will?
Expound unto me the way of God more perfectly.

mfblume
04-12-2011, 08:11 AM
This is my take. God gave dominion on earth to mankind. Adam blew it, but God never forgot that purpose. So Christ became the Last man Adam, and would do what Adam failed to do, while also rectifying the mess Adam created. Adam's failure was to stick with God's will. So, Christ would stick to His will as a man, and as a man give us an example at the same time of what we must do. If Jesus as a man would not do anything except what the Father led Him to do, how much more must we?

Satan's greatest fear is for mankind to dominate the earth and him. And he knows we cannot do it independently of God's Life and Spirit. The fruit of life is analogous to the Spirit of God in us. And Satan did all he could to divert mankind away from that LIFE. He does the same today. Satan knows that if we have God's Spirit within, and learn to be led by that Spirit, then we will successfully dominate all things in this life. (BTW, do not wait for dying and going to heaven for this. lol)

So Jesus is simply saying He will be led by the Spirit as a man, and not let humanity lead him.

pelathais
04-12-2011, 09:20 AM
I agree with Mike's take, however, there is something more when we take a look at the Gospel of John as a whole.

The "Word" which was "made flesh" was with God in the beginning. There is a complexity that John wants us to understand here.

In the beginning, the Word was God, so John is in agreement with Paul's summation in 1 Timothy 3:16. However, there has to be a reason for all of the verbal gymnastics in John 1:1-14 and throughout the Gospel of John which will explain why John chose to emphasize this complexity in the nature of God.

There is a distinction between "the Word" and "the Father." This distinction is important for the believer to be aware of, even if we might not fully understand it. This distinction does not mean that Jesus Christ was anyone other than "God manifest in the flesh."

And, since there is only one God, this distinction is not telling us that Jesus and the Father are "two separate Beings." Also, even with all of the verbal gymnastics employed here by John and in other portions of Scripture by other writers, there is nothing in the Bible that says Jesus and the Father are "two distinct Persons" or "Personalities" as many modern Trinitarians will insist.

Sam
04-12-2011, 10:30 AM
...And, since there is only one God, this distinction is not telling us that Jesus and the Father are "two separate Beings." Also, even with all of the verbal gymnastics employed here by John and in other portions of Scripture by other writers, there is nothing in the Bible that says Jesus and the Father are "two distinct Persons" or "Personalities" as many modern Trinitarians will insist.

"verbal gymnastics"?
"godhead gobbledy gook"?
"theology"?
"philosophy"?

They are not separate persons (as individual beings) but they are separate persons (as roles)?

Michael The Disciple
04-12-2011, 02:14 PM
I agree with Mike's take, however, there is something more when we take a look at the Gospel of John as a whole.

The "Word" which was "made flesh" was with God in the beginning. There is a complexity that John wants us to understand here.

In the beginning, the Word was God, so John is in agreement with Paul's summation in 1 Timothy 3:16. However, there has to be a reason for all of the verbal gymnastics in John 1:1-14 and throughout the Gospel of John which will explain why John chose to emphasize this complexity in the nature of God.

There is a distinction between "the Word" and "the Father." This distinction is important for the believer to be aware of, even if we might not fully understand it. This distinction does not mean that Jesus Christ was anyone other than "God manifest in the flesh."

And, since there is only one God, this distinction is not telling us that Jesus and the Father are "two separate Beings." Also, even with all of the verbal gymnastics employed here by John and in other portions of Scripture by other writers, there is nothing in the Bible that says Jesus and the Father are "two distinct Persons" or "Personalities" as many modern Trinitarians will insist.

The literal Greek from my two lexicons as well as other sources:

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and God was the word. John 1:1

pelathais
04-12-2011, 02:25 PM
"verbal gymnastics"?
"godhead gobbledy gook"?
"theology"?
"philosophy"?

They are not separate persons (as individual beings) but they are separate persons (as roles)?

Using the ancient Latin word "persona" as coined by Tertullian in this regard, I would agree that the Logos (later, the Son) and the Father are different "persona."

The word "persona" means literally, "speaking through" or more generally, "a sound coming through" and referred to the ornate theater masks that a single actor would don as he assumed different roles in a play.

For me however, the modern usage of the word "Person" which is used to describe one's being smacks a bit too much like Tritheism when applied to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

... just my observations and of course, imho.

pelathais
04-12-2011, 02:38 PM
The literal Greek from my two lexicons as well as other sources:

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and God was the word. John 1:1

Which is pretty much the way even the KJV puts it.

But why not simply say, "God was manifest in the flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory...?" Why even bring up the idea of a "Logos," especially in a Hellenistic world where the concept of the Logos was already a highly developed philosophy?

Why tell us that it was "the Word" that was "made flesh" and not just simply say, "God was made flesh?"

There is a complexity in the nature of God that John wants us to understand. He wants us to understand that this complexity exists even if we fall short in comprehending it completely. It seems to be an important point, not just in Chapter 1, but throughout the book.

Praxeas
04-12-2011, 02:51 PM
John 6:38 - For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

This one is the most confusing for me..
He came down from Heaven not to do His own will?
Expound unto me the way of God more perfectly.
There is more than one way to look at this

The word here means "descend". It could mean literally lofting down physically from heaven. That is problematic though since spirits are not physical beings and if Jesus is truly God he could not leave heaven literally.

However it can be more symbolic of becoming human and lowering himself (see Phil 2).

In that case he took on a human nature and as a human had a human will. The human will is distinct from the Divine will

Another way to view the "descending" is all good things ordained from God are said to come down from heaven

The Manna
Joh 6:31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"
Joh 6:32 Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
Joh 6:34 They said to him, "Sir, give us this bread always."
Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Every good and perfect gift
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.

And likewise prophets are said to come from God
Joh 3:2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him."

Sent from God
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Luk 1:26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,

Into the World
Joh 6:14 Then seeing the miracle that Jesus did, those men said, This is truly the Prophet, the One coming into the world.
Joh 16:21 The woman has grief when she bears, because her hour has come. But when she brings forth the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, because of the joy that a man is born into the world.
Joh 17:18 As You have sent Me into the world, even so I have sent them into the world.

pelathais
04-12-2011, 03:04 PM
oooo! Prax is sharper by the day. Nifty analysis, Bro.

Praxeas
04-12-2011, 03:08 PM
lol, thanks

Monarchianism
04-12-2011, 08:04 PM
There is more than one way to look at this

The word here means "descend". It could mean literally lofting down physically from heaven. That is problematic though since spirits are not physical beings and if Jesus is truly God he could not leave heaven literally.

However it can be more symbolic of becoming human and lowering himself (see Phil 2).

In that case he took on a human nature and as a human had a human will. The human will is distinct from the Divine will

Another way to view the "descending" is all good things ordained from God are said to come down from heaven

The Manna
Joh 6:31 Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'"
Joh 6:32 Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
Joh 6:33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
Joh 6:34 They said to him, "Sir, give us this bread always."
Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Every good and perfect gift
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.

And likewise prophets are said to come from God
Joh 3:2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him."

Sent from God
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Luk 1:26 In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,

Into the World
Joh 6:14 Then seeing the miracle that Jesus did, those men said, This is truly the Prophet, the One coming into the world.
Joh 16:21 The woman has grief when she bears, because her hour has come. But when she brings forth the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, because of the joy that a man is born into the world.
Joh 17:18 As You have sent Me into the world, even so I have sent them into the world.


He said "I" came down from heaven. He most def. could not be speaking of being the Father coming from heaven. He must be speaking as man in flesh? I am not quite seeing it. Are you saying that "came down" is being "sent" into the world as John was? John 6:39 says "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me.." Sent.

mizpeh
04-12-2011, 08:08 PM
Which is pretty much the way even the KJV puts it.

But why not simply say, "God was manifest in the flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld His glory...?" Why even bring up the idea of a "Logos," especially in a Hellenistic world where the concept of the Logos was already a highly developed philosophy?

Why tell us that it was "the Word" that was "made flesh" and not just simply say, "God was made flesh?"

There is a complexity in the nature of God that John wants us to understand. He wants us to understand that this complexity exists even if we fall short in comprehending it completely. It seems to be an important point, not just in Chapter 1, but throughout the book.Pel, I agree that there is a complexity in God that we cannot possibly fathom. Just the fact that He can put his Spirit in every believer...that is his very person, even himself, that he fills each of us with. And despite putting himself in every believer, it doesn't diminish him nor does it make him more than one person. From our perspective as humans, if we had the ability to put our spirit in someone else and remain in our own body, wouldn't that make us two persons? But because of God's complexity this doesn't happen to him.

Also his ability to hear the prayer of many people at once and respond to each simultaneously boggles the mind. If we have more than one of our children talking to us at once we all but one be quiet so that we can understand what is being said, but that is not a problem for God. For us to hear each child without confusion, we would have to be more than one person.

God is definitely much more complex than a human person. And I believe that this complexity allows him the ability to become a man and remain transcendent simultaneously.

Praxeas
04-12-2011, 08:09 PM
He said "I" came down from heaven. He most def. could not be speaking of being the Father coming from heaven. He must be speaking as man in flesh? I am not quite seeing it. Are you saying that "came down" is being "sent" into the world as John was? John 6:39 says "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me.." Sent.
He is a man. When he says this HE is a man. He has a complete human nature.

Im saying exactly what I posted in the previous post of mine.

Did you think about now all these phrases are used in the bible? That is why I gave examples. Do you understand "came down from" can't literally mean "left heaven and lofted down" if Christ is God?

Did you get that the Manna did not loft down from a Manna factory in heaven but what the text means is Heaven is the origin of this gift just as every good and perfect gift comes down from God? Did you?

kclee4jc
04-12-2011, 08:25 PM
So much of the Godhead confusion can be cleared up with one simple understanding. Jesus was Spirit and flesh. Spirit=God and flesh=humanity. Spirit and flesh are distinct substances and often stand contrary to one another. This is why Paul spoke of a inward war.

Monarchianism
04-12-2011, 08:55 PM
He is a man. When he says this HE is a man. He has a complete human nature.

Im saying exactly what I posted in the previous post of mine.

Did you think about now all these phrases are used in the bible? That is why I gave examples. Do you understand "came down from" can't literally mean "left heaven and lofted down" if Christ is God?

Did you get that the Manna did not loft down from a Manna factory in heaven but what the text means is Heaven is the origin of this gift just as every good and perfect gift comes down from God? Did you?

No, I did not get it at all. Bleh. -_-
I see where you are coming from.

Praxeas
04-13-2011, 12:41 AM
No, I did not get it at all. Bleh. -_-
I see where you are coming from.
Im not really sure how else to explain it. "sent", "come down from" etc etc does not always mean literally from one kind of world into another

Monarchianism
04-13-2011, 01:47 AM
Im not really sure how else to explain it. "sent", "come down from" etc etc does not always mean literally from one kind of world into another

Okie!
Thank you for your answer.
It helped.

Praxeas
04-13-2011, 02:40 AM
Okie!
Thank you for your answer.
It helped.
Good :thumbsup

The other point is that we definitely believe Christ originated in Heaven before becoming human. Speaking from the perspective of being human now he can speak of His will in distinction to God's

pelathais
04-13-2011, 04:27 PM
So much of the Godhead confusion can be cleared up with one simple understanding. Jesus was Spirit and flesh. Spirit=God and flesh=humanity. Spirit and flesh are distinct substances and often stand contrary to one another. This is why Paul spoke of a inward war.

If "Spirit=God" and "Flesh=Man" as you have said, then what about BEFORE the Word was made flesh?

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God" (John 1:1-2).

So, if the Word was God and God was God, then wouldn't we have two Gods in the beginning?

:wacko

Add to that John 3:34 - God gives the Spirit to Jesus... and we end up with three Gods?