Explain these verses against eternal security???

[corvet786c]

No one responded in a previous thread so here is a new one. I copied this from someone's blog... please explain how you can have eternal security, is that the phrase? These verses scare me! I know its about what He did on the cross and Grace, but what do these verses mean?

Let's take a look at Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

What happens if someone doesn't overcome? What will happen to his name in the book of life? Apparently, it will be blotted out. So, if a name that was in the book of life can be blotted out … what does that tell you?

Now see Hebrews 10:38,
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

And 1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

So, apparently one can draw back and depart from the faith. Does this mean they were never saved to begin with? Negative. It means that they LOST what they HAD. They departed.

What does depart mean? It means to go away, to quit, leave, or separate, to withdraw, to forsake. So if one is departing from the faith as 1 Timothy says some will, it means they are forsaking it, which means they had to have it in the first place in order to forsake it.

The Bible says that nothing will enter heaven that defileth, maketh a lie, or worketh abomination (Revelation 21:27). So if someone is trying to say that once you are a Christian you can never lose your salvation, you are sealed, hell-proof, fire-proof, and couldn't go to hell if you wanted to no matter what you ever do in the future, that makes one of two people a liar. It either makes the person spouting that off a liar, or it makes God a liar.

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; [Titus 1:2]


A person has a free will before salvation, and none after? Foolish, and unbiblical logic!

Romans 11:21-23
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

2 Peter 2:19-22
While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Hebrews 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Hebrews 2:2-3
For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

2 Peter 3:16-18
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.


If we could never depart from the faith, err, or turn away, why would we be warned to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"? "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation?"

Just think. The angels were in Heaven and they didn't have eternal security! They sinned. God cannot allow sin in Heaven. Those who sin are called sinners. God will not allow sinners into Heaven."
__________________
Krt

Keep your religiousity and traditions and just give me Jesus

[Michael The Disciple]

Amen theres nothing anyone can say to refute the truth.

[corvet786c]

68 Views can anyone explain this or not ?????

Please look at these verses and explain it this is not associated with my other post.

[kclee4jc]

68 Views can anyone explain this or not ?????

Please look at these verses and explain it this is not associated with my other post.

What you have said in this post is absolutely true. Eternal security is a doctrine of devils. It enables it's adherants to live in sin and feel ok about it. But, it does not save them!

[Aquila]

The doctrine of "eternal security" (as it relates to the concept of the perseverance of the saints) and the doctrine of "free will" are both absolute truths. In theology we call this a theological antinomy. It's when two apparently contradictory concepts, principles, or truths are both equally true. The limited and finite human mind finds this baffling, seeing that we cannot grasp the fulness of the divine perspective of God.

I typically answer the issue like this:

"I'm an Arminian... God's a Calvinist." lol

[Ferd]

you are on the wrong forum. find a baptist forum and i am sure they can twist this nine ways from sunday.

most folk here, dont believe that. how could we be expected to defend it?

[Aquila]

you are on the wrong forum. find a baptist forum and i am sure they can twist this nine ways from sunday.

most folk here, dont believe that. how could we be expected to defend it?

Ferd, I believe that some things are just beyond human reasoning. And yes, there are antinomies in Scripture. Things that would drive the human mind insane trying to comprehend. Because we are not God.

But hey, if some of us feel we've got it all figured out, more power to 'em. But my God is just too big for that.

[NorCal]

How can one not preach true repentance?
John preached REPENT!
Jesus preached REPENT!
Peter preached REPENT!

Not, say your "Hail Mary's", Ask for forgiveness and the turn around and slap God in the Face by continuing in Sin.

[pelathais]

No one responded in a previous thread so here is a new one. I copied this from someone's blog... please explain how you can have eternal security, is that the phrase? These verses scare me! I know its about what He did on the cross and Grace, but what do these verses mean?

Let's take a look at Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

What happens if someone doesn't overcome? What will happen to his name in the book of life? Apparently, it will be blotted out. So, if a name that was in the book of life can be blotted out … what does that tell you?

Now see Hebrews 10:38,
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
....

If we could never depart from the faith, err, or turn away, why would we be warned to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"? "How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation?"

Just think. The angels were in Heaven and they didn't have eternal security! They sinned. God cannot allow sin in Heaven. Those who sin are called sinners. God will not allow sinners into Heaven."


While I personally think the idea of "once saved, always saved" ignores a number of important points, as you have pointed out; I also feel that to ignore the concept of the Preservation of the Saints as you appear to also have done is equally deficient.

For example, Hebrews 10:26... The manner in which you seem to be wanting to apply this passage smacks of "Christian Perfectionism" through works, a doctrine that I know MichaeltheDisciple heartily supports but for which we find little support for in the Scriptures.

It is a simple fact; those that "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling" and never "depart from the faith" are SECURE in their salvation in Christ. They were "once saved" and they shall always remain saved!

[pelathais]

The doctrine of "eternal security" (as it relates to the concept of the perseverance of the saints) and the doctrine of "free will" are both absolute truths. In theology we call this a theological antinomy. It's when two apparently contradictory concepts, principles, or truths are both equally true. The limited and finite human mind finds this baffling, seeing that we cannot grasp the fulness of the divine perspective of God.

I typically answer the issue like this:

"I'm an Arminian... God's a Calvinist." lol

:thumbsup :lol

[Aquila]

How can one not preach true repentance?
John preached REPENT!
Jesus preached REPENT!
Peter preached REPENT!

Not, say your "Hail Mary's", Ask for forgiveness and the turn around and slap God in the Face by continuing in Sin.

If you so much as turn and sin once after repentance, it's as bad as turning and sinning 100 times. Do people who believe in what you are saying repent and NEVER sin again???

The same grace that saves and keeps the person who turns and sins 1 time, saves those who turn and sin 10, 100, 200, or 300 more times. We are not Muslims, we are not saved by works. We are saved by being IN Christ.

Now...anyone truly born again biblically, has the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, dwelling within them. Also, the Spirit of God has regenerated their dead human spirit by virtue of their oneness with the Lord. Thereby they are partakers in the divine nature. Any true believer who has a new nature is a new creature. And no new creature can live in continual sin and rebellion against God. The one truly born again will turn from self to God, and will surrender to Christ Jesus, Him living through them.

[Aquila]

While I personally think the idea of "once saved, always saved" ignores a number of important points, as you have pointed out; I also feel that to ignore the concept of the Preservation of the Saints as you appear to also have done is equally deficient.

For example, Hebrews 10:26... The manner in which you seem to be wanting to apply this passage smacks of "Christian Perfectionism" through works, a doctrine that I know MichaeltheDisciple heartily supports but for which we find little support for in the Scriptures.

It is a simple fact; those that "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling" and never "depart from the faith" are SECURE in their salvation in Christ. They were "once saved" and they shall always remain saved!

I firmly believe in "working out our faith with fear and trembling." But I think this is often taken out of context. Please note what it is teaching...

Philippians 2:11-13 (King James Version)
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Notice, we are not the ones working out our salvation. It is "God which worketh in" us to will and to do of "his good pleasure". We are His workmanship in Christ Jesus. God Himself is the one perfecting and sanctifying through the convicting power of the Spirit. It ISN'T our efforts or our works. Therefore, working out our salvation is predicated upon denying self and allow Christ to work in us. Not keeping religious rules and standards.

[pelathais]

I firmly believe in "working out our faith with fear and trembling." But I think this is often taken out of context. Please note what it is teaching...

Philippians 2:11-13 (King James Version)
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Notice, we are not the ones working out our salvation. It is "God which worketh in" us to will and to do of "his good pleasure". We are His workmanship in Christ Jesus. God Himself is the one perfecting and sanctifying through the convicting power of the Spirit. It ISN'T our efforts or our works. Therefore, working out our salvation is predicated upon denying self and allow Christ to work in us. Not keeping religious rules and standards.

:thumbsup

[Jason B]

While I personally think the idea of "once saved, always saved" ignores a number of important points, as you have pointed out; I also feel that to ignore the concept of the Preservation of the Saints as you appear to also have done is equally deficient.

For example, Hebrews 10:26... The manner in which you seem to be wanting to apply this passage smacks of "Christian Perfectionism" through works, a doctrine that I know MichaeltheDisciple heartily supports but for which we find little support for in the Scriptures.

It is a simple fact; those that "work out their own salvation with fear and trembling" and never "depart from the faith" are SECURE in their salvation in Christ. They were "once saved" and they shall always remain saved!

:thumbsup

Right. While not believing in OSAS, I believe that its difficult to lose your salvation. Basically, if you don't want to lose it, God's not taking it from you. In order to "lose" your salvation it seems one would have to life in open rebellion, unrepentance, and unbelief, endure the chastening of God which is meant to straighten them out, and reject his grace and mercy which would reach out to such a one in that situation. But if one persists in that unbelief and disobedience, I do certainly believe that God is not obligated to remember their righteousness (Ezekiel18:23-32).

HOWEVER, I used to think someone could "lose" their salvation or be "backslid" (which meant the same) by simply trimming their hair, missing church a few week (thus being termed "out" of church), wearing shorts or pants, and a multitude of silly things. I know of folks who in their own mind have been both lost and found (thorugh the falling "out of church" and "praying back through" doctrine) multiple times in a year, to say nothing of a week or even a day. Salvation is not a fickle thing, neither does it rest solely on our shoulders.

[Aquila]

:thumbsup

Right. While not believing in OSAS, I believe that its difficult to lose your salvation. Basically, if you don't want to lose it, God's not taking it from you. In order to "lose" your salvation it seems one would have to life in open rebellion, unrepentance, and unbelief, endure the chastening of God which is meant to straighten them out, and reject his grace and mercy which would reach out to such a one in that situation. But if one persists in that unbelief and disobedience, I do certainly believe that God is not obligated to remember their righteousness (Ezekiel18:23-32).

HOWEVER, I used to think someone could "lose" their salvation or be "backslid" (which meant the same) by simply trimming their hair, missing church a few week (thus being termed "out" of church), wearing shorts or pants, and a multitude of silly things. I know of folks who in their own mind have been both lost and found (thorugh the falling "out of church" and "praying back through" doctrine) multiple times in a year, to say nothing of a week or even a day. Salvation is not a fickle thing, neither does it rest solely on our shoulders.

:thumbsup

[Sam]

:thumbsup

Right. While not believing in OSAS, I believe that its difficult to lose your salvation. Basically, if you don't want to lose it, God's not taking it from you. In order to "lose" your salvation it seems one would have to life in open rebellion, unrepentance, and unbelief, endure the chastening of God which is meant to straighten them out, and reject his grace and mercy which would reach out to such a one in that situation. But if one persists in that unbelief and disobedience, I do certainly believe that God is not obligated to remember their righteousness (Ezekiel18:23-32).

HOWEVER, I used to think someone could "lose" their salvation or be "backslid" (which meant the same) by simply trimming their hair, missing church a few week (thus being termed "out" of church), wearing shorts or pants, and a multitude of silly things. I know of folks who in their own mind have been both lost and found (thorugh the falling "out of church" and "praying back through" doctrine) multiple times in a year, to say nothing of a week or even a day. Salvation is not a fickle thing, neither does it rest solely on our shoulders.

Thank you.
Too many people in our churches are "afraid" they are going to do something or mess up or fail to do something they should do and their salvation will be withdrawn from them and they will be lost.

1 Peter 1:5 says that we are "kept by the power of God." We don't have to keep ourselves saved. The verse goes says we are "kept by the power of God through faith." So, just as we trusted Jesus for salvation initially, we trust Him to keep us saved. It's by faith, not by works, but it's by a faith which works.

[Aquila]

I'm learing that the TRUE “greasy grace” is the one that’s preached as though it can slip right through your fingers if you stumble.