Endtime Prophecy Questions

[jediwill83]

Ok guys I havent got into the whole endtime prophecy thing...juts kinda went with the flow but I do have some questions. 1.Is there any scriptural evidence of salvation after the rapture and 2.When the rapture happens is there any evidence God "removes" His Spirit from the Earth entirely.I know theres lots of viewpoints on these things but I just want some open logical discussion please.

[Sam]

oh boy!

I'll give you some thoughts first so every one can begin shooting.
This is based on the theory of a future rapture followed by a future tribulation.

First question about people being saved after the rapture:
--Church age is Revelation chapters 2 and 3.
--Rapture and glorified Church in Heaven is Revelation chapters 4 and 5.
--Tribulation begins in Revelation 6 and continues until Jesus returns with His church in Revelation 19.
--A group of Jews described as 144,000 with the Father's name in their foreheads and made up of 12,000 from each tribe are found in Revelation 7:1-8; 14:1-5) and a group of gentiles described as "a great multitude, of all nations and kindreds and tongues" in Revelation 6:8-9 and 7:10-17 would be what we call the "tribulation saints."

Second question about God "removing" His Spirit when He removes the church at the rapture. I assume you are referring to 2 Thessalonians 2:1-10. Some pre-trib dispensationalists teach that there is a reference here to "the antichrist" who cannot be revealed until "he who now letteth will let until he be taken away." "He who now letteth" is seen as the Holy Spirit in the Church and at the rapture the Holy Spirit will leave when the church leaves. Some teach that the "falling away" or "departure" or "apostasia" here is the departure of the church or the rapture. Will the Holy Spirit "leave" when the church leaves? Well, He can't actually leave because He is omnipresent so He will still be here in His "omnipresence" but perhaps not in his "manifest presence." However, it seems to me that if there are folks preaching the gospel and folks accepting the gospel and folks laying down their lives for the Lord, the Holy Spirit must still be active and working among, upon, and within them.

[jediwill83]

thats what I was thinking....if the mark of the beast supposedly dooms your soul what does it matter since supposedly there is no salvation after the rapture? If there are 144,000 evangelists what are they preaching? And how are people being saved by their ministry if there is no work of the Spirit?It would be interesting to do a word search in my Strongs about 2 Thessalonians 2:1-10 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=2+Thessalonians+2%3A1-10).

[SRM]

Ok guys I havent got into the whole endtime prophecy thing...juts kinda went with the flow but I do have some questions. 1.Is there any scriptural evidence of salvation after the rapture and 2.When the rapture happens is there any evidence God "removes" His Spirit from the Earth entirely.I know theres lots of viewpoints on these things but I just want some open logical discussion please.

How can God remove his Spirit FROM the earth...HE IS OMNIPRESENT ?!!!!

That is a Old Pentecostal teaching that has no Biblical support..

[jediwill83]

yeah...didnt make sense to me either...which makes the "If you cant live for God with his spirit being here how do you expect to do it when his spirit isnt here" argument fall to pieces.Even David said "If I make my bed in hell you are there"

[Austin]

:highfive:highfive
How can God remove his Spirit FROM the earth...HE IS OMNIPRESENT ?!!!!

That is a Old Pentecostal teaching that has no Biblical support..

[egalejiya]

the endtimes are a description of human history, Violence, there is no difference with how bad the world is now and how bad it was 2k years ago.

[mfblume]

Since I believe the rapture takes us directly to the white throne judgment without any trib afterwards or any millennium afterwards, and the white throne judgment is the final judgment for everyone, I believe there is no chance for salvation for anyone after the rapture.

[UnTraditional]

I agree with the bearded guy from Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA.

[Sam]

I agree with the bearded guy from Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA.

and there are other folks here on the forum (and in the Body of Christ) who believe in various forms of preterism.

The main thing is that we love the Lord and love and respect one another and not "fight" over stuff like this.

[mfblume]

and there are other folks here on the forum (and in the Body of Christ) who believe in various forms of preterism.

The main thing is that we love the Lord and love and respect one another and not "fight" over stuff like this.

Amen.

[vrblackwell]

Heresy I say, its all heresy! :)

[jediwill83]

hehe no fightin intended ya'll....just trying to weed out "tradition" with what the Word actually says...you guys are a big help I appreciate any viewpoint....just want em backed up with scripture.

[Sam]

hehe no fightin intended ya'll....just trying to weed out "tradition" with what the Word actually says...you guys are a big help I appreciate any viewpoint....just want em backed up with scripture.

tradition?


well the preterists will probably tell you that dispensationalism is Darby/Scofield/Plymouth Brethren tradition that has been brought into our churhes.

and others may quote the 2005 UPC position paper against preterism

[Austin]

I guess the gathering together of the Hebrew people from all over the earth where they have been scattered by evil men down through the past 1800 some years was just a coincidence. Giving them back their land and city was again just a coincidence. During the fighting to gain their land and during the time of the 70' and 80's wars and they having the victory was just a coincidence. All of this in the times that we are now seeing in global exchange is just again a coincidence. The world council of churches headed up by the ecumenical counsel that also in just a coincidence. The son of perdition is really not anyone at all that we should be concerned about since it's all over isn't that a coincidence? The debate whether Revelation was written in 70AD or 90 AD doesn't matter either. I myself have heard enough of this preterism if that's what people want to believe then go on and believe it. I chose not! In that ream of belief their is division among those that have chosen that theology. Just something else to add to the confusion of Christianity ism's. Those of you who wish to post in reply to my post well and done, don't waste your time address it directing to me I won't reply I've said my peace.

[jediwill83]

yeah preterism isnt something ive done alot of study on...until I came on here I only had heard of post....mid....and pre trib...and little else.Like I said I'm not looking for a knock down drag out...I just want some logical back n forth...stuff has been jumping out at me lately and I wanna kinda continue that trend.

[Falla39]

Years ago, I started studying my Bible and endeavoring to draw closer to God. This went
on for a few years. Meanwhile I prayed for God to open my understanding to His Word. I
had been trained up by my godly parents in the way I should go. There were things I did
not understand. In seeking God for Truth and nothing but the Truth, I was led to a passage
of scripture in 2 Timothy 3:14-17

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

I felt the Spirit was directing me as to what to do about the confusion I had.
Telling me to continue in the things I had been taught and learned and been
assured of, also knowing of whom I had learned the holy scriptures.

It was not taking away anything that I had previously been taught. But I felt
HE was taking me deeper in HIM. I believe there are things we will not under-
stand until we have a strong desire to go deeper in HIM! No need to get in
arguments and treat others ugly just because they have SEEN some things
you may not have seen or that they have received some truths you may not
have yet seen. Get to digging deeper in HIM. They may have found some dia-
monds while digging deeper. Students who stay home and burn the midnight
oil usually make better grades, and why shouldn't they. If others had done the
same instead of staying out late and not studying, they may have had better
grades too.
If all we know is what someone else told or taught us, that's is all we will
know. But why not pursue Him in a deeper way.

Falla39

[pelathais]

Ok guys I havent got into the whole endtime prophecy thing...juts kinda went with the flow but I do have some questions. 1.Is there any scriptural evidence of salvation after the rapture and 2.When the rapture happens is there any evidence God "removes" His Spirit from the Earth entirely.I know theres lots of viewpoints on these things but I just want some open logical discussion please.

Why do you assume that there is even a "Rapture" in the Dispensational sense? The idea of people "beaming up" into the clouds is a relatively modern innovation. The ancients had no such concept.

There are a host of presuppositions behind the OP/Dispensational teachings. Remember, just because John Nelson Darby invented it, Ellen G. White popularized it and the good Baptist folks at Dallas Theological Seminary have endorsed it, it still ain't necessarily so.

[mfblume]

I guess the gathering together of the Hebrew people from all over the earth where they have been scattered by evil men down through the past 1800 some years was just a coincidence. Giving them back their land and city was again just a coincidence. During the fighting to gain their land and during the time of the 70' and 80's wars and they having the victory was just a coincidence. All of this in the times that we are now seeing in global exchange is just again a coincidence. The world council of churches headed up by the ecumenical counsel that also in just a coincidence. The son of perdition is really not anyone at all that we should be concerned about since it's all over isn't that a coincidence? The debate whether Revelation was written in 70AD or 90 AD doesn't matter either. I myself have heard enough of this preterism if that's what people want to believe then go on and believe it. I chose not! In that ream of belief their is division among those that have chosen that theology. Just something else to add to the confusion of Christianity ism's. Those of you who wish to post in reply to my post well and done, don't waste your time address it directing to me I won't reply I've said my peace.

It is disappointing to read the "coincidence" references. You may not agree, and that is fine. But preterism is not something that is stupid and dumb, but there are genuinely intelligent people who believe it and adhere to it, and weighed it out in contrast with the popular views and found it better. There are intelligent and convincing responses to your questions about coincidence. The bottom line is it that it does not matter what and what has not happened, but "what saith the scriptures?"

Until a person fully hears the basics of an alternative viewpoint and hears out how all the issues are dealt with, we are only giving knee-jerk reactions to it.

:thumbsup

[pelathais]

I guess the gathering together of the Hebrew people from all over the earth where they have been scattered by evil men down through the past 1800 some years was just a coincidence. Giving them back their land and city was again just a coincidence. During the fighting to gain their land and during the time of the 70' and 80's wars and they having the victory was just a coincidence. All of this in the times that we are now seeing in global exchange is just again a coincidence. The world council of churches headed up by the ecumenical counsel that also in just a coincidence. The son of perdition is really not anyone at all that we should be concerned about since it's all over isn't that a coincidence? The debate whether Revelation was written in 70AD or 90 AD doesn't matter either. I myself have heard enough of this preterism if that's what people want to believe then go on and believe it. I chose not! In that ream of belief their is division among those that have chosen that theology. Just something else to add to the confusion of Christianity ism's. Those of you who wish to post in reply to my post well and done, don't waste your time address it directing to me I won't reply I've said my peace.

The "World Council of Churches" is hardly the global behemoth your statement appears to be implying. In fact, they are inconsequential as far as the vast, vast majority of Christian believers are concerned. Gotta throw your rocks at a better target. These guys have consigned themselves to insignificance.

Israel has thrived in large part because American evangelicals have trumpeted her cause. So this one is actually a self-fulfilling "prophecy." And, I support Israel, but I don't support her because it means "the end of the world" (as if that were a 'good thing'). I support Israel because it is a liberal democracy in a region of hate fueled dictatorships, and for other, moral reasons as well.

The "son of perdition" is both "all over with" AND always a problem. Paul's words to the Thessalonians (2 Thessalonians 2) were a warning of a THEN PRESENT danger. "Coincidently," Paul's words have the same meaning for us today.

I'm no Preterist myself, but I do see the validity of many of their arguments... except the very early date for the Revelation... and the idea that "the Son of Man" was seen "by all the nations of the earth" (Matthew 24:30) in 70 A.D. as Full Preterists teach (Mike is a Partial Preterist and doesn't hold to this idea either).

[MissBrattified]

Seeing the words "endtime" and "prophecy" together in a title kind of grates on my nerves. I'm still recovering from the endtime and Richard Heard overkill of the 70's/80's. I've never bothered to figure out what I believe about the end of the world, the end of people, the end of a church age, the end of anything...and I probably never will. :foottap

[mfblume]

Seeing the words "endtime" and "prophecy" together in a title kind of grates on my nerves. I'm still recovering from the endtime and Richard Heard overkill of the 70's/80's. I've never bothered to figure out what I believe about the end of the world, the end of people, the end of a church age, the end of anything...and I probably never will. :foottap

It's a shame that such ministries have hurt people's interests in learning from these issues that God included in what His word is intended to relate to us.


2 Peter 2:2 KJV ...by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

[mfblume]

Jediwill83,

Partial preterism proposes that the resurrection to come in our future is going to provide us with immortal physical bodies in order to facilitate the mandate God first created man to carry out in having dominion on this earth. We believe the ultimate goal is not to die and go to heaven and be there forevermore. Adam was not meant to die and go to heaven. And in order to restore that back to mankind, why would God ultimately desire us to die and go to heaven to stay there?

Anyway, partial preterism proposes that the idea of a resurrection at the end of the church age sometime before a literal millennium of 1000 years, followed by an ADDITIONAL resurrection at the end of the millennium, is offkey. We believe it is confusing passages that are actually dealing with one and the same resurrection and mistaking them to be speaking of two different resurrections.

Futurism proposes there is a resurrection at the end of the church age and another one at the end of the millennium. It also proposes there is a judgment of the devil at the end of the church age and another one at the end of the millennium. Partial preterism claims there is just ONE FUTURE final judgment of satan as well as one future and final resurrection. We claim what scriptures people refer to a literal millennium are actually scriptures speaking about the church age in which we presently live.

And seeing we propose one resurrection to come, we believe both sinners and saints will experience this resurrection as follows:

John 5:28-29 KJV Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil], unto the resurrection of damnation.

Acts 24:15 KJV And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


And this is the ONLY resurrection to occur in our future and will take everyone to the Great White Throne judgment as follows:

Revelation 20:11-12 KJV (11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


We believe the mistake futurists have made about the millenniumm, thinking it is not the same period as the present church age, is their idea of satan being bound. They argue that satan cannot be bound now, so the millennium in Rev 20 cannot be the present church age.

Revelation 20:2-3 KJV And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (3) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


But we read this about binding:

Matthew 12:29 KJV Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.


And since you cannot spoil a strong man til you first bind him, then how could Jesus have spoiled the devil unless he first bound the devil?

Colossians 2:15 KJV And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.


The devil is not said to be bound so as for there to be no more evil in the world. Rev 20 says HE IS BOUND TO STRICTLY BE UNABLE TO DO ONE THING.... GATHER ALL NATIONS AGAINST THE CHURCH:

Revelation 20:7-9 KJV And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, (8) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. (9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


We do not read murder reconvenes again once satan is loosed, or that drug dealing begins again and rape and incest begin. We read HE DECEIVES THE NATIONS TO BATTLE AGAINST THE SAINTS, and that has not happened on a world scale yet!

So, the point is that since nothing occurs with sinners after the white throne judgment, since all sinners are cast into the lake of fire after the resurrection to yet come, there will be nobody in sinful existence on the earth after this resurrection for there to require salvation after the resurrection.

My thoughts, anyway.