2007 NA Youth Congress: A Pivotal Moment for UPC

[deacon blues]

This afternoon we had a Holy Week prayer service. One of the songs playing over the system during prayer was "All I Need is You". I was taken back to one of the most poigniant moments in my life.

We had taken three vanloads of teenagers and adults to Greensboro, NC for the 2007 North American Youth Congress. For many it was their first taste of such an event. Walking into that arena filled with 18,000 teenagers and young adults was a powerful experience. The worship was the best worship setting I had ever been in. It seemed like every song was a home run that elicited sincere praise and worship from the tens of thousands there. Our group was greatly impacted by that week. The highlight moment was when the praise band played "All I Need Is You". Words cannot describe the depth of worship that was demonstrated there. In all of my years in the UPC I had never seen anything like it. Our young people were hungry. The youth leadership seemed poised to really launch some things that would make history.

I had never been more proud to be in the UPC. It felt like this was a pivotal moment where the youth of the UPC were going to bridge the past with the present and lead us to a brighter future. The sessions during the day were on target, relevant and challenging. The activities were well planned and exciting. Special guests and interviews showcased young people who were making a difference. The messages at night were spot on. Todd Gaddys sermon the final night was from the heart. No hype, just straight, visionary and inspiring.

After all the events I had been to over the years, I had never been to a finer one in the UPC. No BOTT topped this one, no campmeeting, no crusade, no other event like 2007 NAYC. I talked about it for weeks after we came home.

I started to hear rumblings of criticism and discontent from other circles. I heard stories about preachers calling for Wayne Francis to be removed. I heard about Todd Gaddy taking shots from preachers who had attended NAYC and didn't like it.

The dye was cast. It didn't matter that kids by the thousands went home encouraged, inspired and ready to make a differenc ein their churches and community. It didn't matter that some people found Jesus at that event. It didn't matter that a young girl, Amber, from our group got saved. She had no family in church, but her life was changed forever at that meeting.

No, politics ruled the day. HQ got barraged with complaints from preachers who had attended or simply heard the rumors. The youth leadership got a good scolding and was asked why Brother Haney or Brother Jones weren't invited to speak to the youth. Why did they invite the young lady who was the voice of Dora the Explorer who was also a member of a UPC church to be interviewed and placed on the platform? Why all the contemporary music? Why were the praise singers encouraged to move and sway and gyrate to the music? The worship leader didn't wear a tie! Many of the praise singers wore jeans on the platform and had untucked shirts! On and on it went.

The internet burned up with negativity about the direction of the UPC. Preaching at subsequent marqee events made references to the appalling state of affairs of the UPC. In October at the Tampa General Conference, Mark Johnston emerged as a powerful voice for the young people and young ministers of the UPC. His sermon "I'd Rather Be a Hero than a Celebrity" was the talk of the conference. Yet the entire conference was overshadowed by a vote to allow tv advertising in the UPC. The resolution narrowly passed. The most conservative among us had been planning to bolt should the resolution pass. Household UPC names would leave within the year and form a new organization.

Panic about the future of the UPC began to mount. With the loss of very conservative men and ministries, would the UPC become a liberal fellowship? There were enough traditionalists left that they were going to make sure that would not happen. Mark Johnston became persona non grata after his message about Jesus and the Pharisees entitled "This Preemminent Jesus" at BOTT 2008. His popularity would wane and his invitations to large events would end in the UPC. Campmeetings and preaching conferences were charged with references to "these young preachers" trying to leave "this" truth, labels like "emergent church" were being slapped on anything and anybody asking questions or challenging the status quo, reputations were being defamed simply by fantasy or by association.

A group of young preachers met in Pontiac, MI for fellowship and encouragement. It was by invitation only. The conspiracy theories produced by those two days abounded. More innuendo, more internet alienation, more castigation. Young preachers began dropping off here and there. The environment became so caustic, many guys just couldn't stay around. It was obvious there would be no let up until anyone perceived as a threat to the established way of thinking and doing things was gone.

It was an opportunity missed. It was a moment squandered. The summer of 2007 presented us with a chance to launch the youth and young ministers of the UPC into a new era of growth and unity. Instead, the system turned on itself and cut off its nose to spite its face.

A sat in the prayer service today visualizing that profound worship moment as "All I Need Is You" played and people prayed. It was feeling of mixed emotions. Whereas it was a pleasant memory of a powerful, deep and lasting time of heartfelt praise and worship I'll not soon forget, it was tinged with sorrow at the thought that we had been presented with an epic opportunity that slipped through our fingers.

[Digging4Truth]

I often say... The current church & organizational model will always, without fail, find a way to kill a move of God if it's big enough.

I was offered a church a year or so ago. My wife said "You would make such a great pastor" and I do believe I would.

But the nature of the beast will always prevail. If I ever have an assembly it will be a dozen or so and it will be in my home. When we get close to 2 dozen we will multiply into 2 assemblies and continue to worship together as a unit from time to time but operating as 2, then 3 or 4 entities etc.

Why?

Because it is the nature of the beast and no man is bigger than the power it possesses. If I partake of it then it will eventually make me what I don't want to be.

Great post DB.

[POWERUP]

WOW!!!!!!!!!! 2007 must have been the year............ I left the UPC in the fall of 2007..

Yep, I walked away from it all............Sad thing is............... I remember every moment you described Deacon Blues.........

Its all good now. I don't harbor any bad feelings............. It was my decesion!!!!!!

[unitedpraise10]

This afternoon we had a Holy Week prayer service. One of the songs playing over the system during prayer was "All I Need is You". I was taken back to one of the most poigniant moments in my life.

We had taken three vanloads of teenagers and adults to 1. Greensboro, NC for the 2007 North American Youth Congress. For many it was their first taste of such an event. Walking into that arena filled with 18,000 teenagers and young adults was a powerful experience. The worship was the best worship setting I had ever been in. It seemed like every song was a home run that elicited sincere praise and worship from the tens of thousands there. Our group was greatly impacted by that week. The highlight moment was when the praise band played "All I Need Is You". Words cannot describe the depth of worship that was demonstrated there. In all of my years in the UPC I had never seen anything like it. Our young people were hungry. The youth leadership seemed poised to really launch some things that would make history.

I had never been more proud to be in the UPC. It felt like this was a pivotal moment where the youth of the UPC were going to bridge the past with the present and lead us to a brighter future. The sessions during the day were on target, relevant and challenging. The activities were well planned and exciting. Special guests and interviews showcased young people who were making a difference. The messages at night were spot on. Todd Gaddys sermon the final night was from the heart. No hype, just straight, visionary and inspiring.

After all the events I had been to over the years, I had never been to a finer one in the UPC. No BOTT topped this one, no campmeeting, no crusade, no other event like 2007 NAYC. I talked about it for weeks after we came home.

I started to hear rumblings of criticism and discontent from other circles. I heard stories about preachers calling for Wayne Francis to be removed. I heard about Todd Gaddy taking shots from preachers who had attended NAYC and didn't like it.

The dye was cast. It didn't matter that kids by the thousands went home encouraged, inspired and ready to make a differenc ein their churches and community. It didn't matter that some people found Jesus at that event. It didn't matter that a young girl, Amber, from our group got saved. She had no family in church, but her life was changed forever at that meeting.

No, politics ruled the day. HQ got barraged with complaints from preachers who had attended or simply heard the rumors. The youth leadership got a good scolding and was asked why Brother Haney or Brother Jones weren't invited to speak to the youth. Why did they invite the young lady who was the voice of Dora the Explorer who was also a member of a UPC church to be interviewed and placed on the platform? Why all the contemporary music? 2. Why were the praise singers encouraged to move and sway and gyrate to the music? The worship leader didn't wear a tie! Many of the praise singers wore jeans on the platform and had untucked shirts! On and on it went.

The internet burned up with negativity about the direction of the UPC. Preaching at subsequent marqee events made references to the appalling state of affairs of the UPC. In October at the Tampa General Conference, Mark Johnston emerged as a powerful voice for the young people and young ministers of the UPC. His sermon "I'd Rather Be a Hero than a Celebrity" was the talk of the conference. Yet the entire conference was overshadowed by a vote to allow tv advertising in the UPC. The resolution narrowly passed. The most conservative among us had been planning to bolt should the resolution pass. Household UPC names would leave within the year and form a new organization.

Panic about the future of the UPC began to mount. With the loss of very conservative men and ministries, would the UPC become a liberal fellowship? There were enough traditionalists left that they were going to make sure that would not happen. Mark Johnston became persona non grata after his message about Jesus and the Pharisees entitled "This Preemminent Jesus" at BOTT 2008. His popularity would wane and his invitations to large events would end in the UPC. Campmeetings and preaching conferences were charged with references to "these young preachers" trying to leave "this" truth, labels like "emergent church" were being slapped on anything and anybody asking questions or challenging the status quo, reputations were being defamed simply by fantasy or by association.

A group of young preachers met in Pontiac, MI for fellowship and encouragement. It was by invitation only. The conspiracy theories produced by those two days abounded. More innuendo, more internet alienation, more castigation. Young preachers began dropping off here and there. The environment became so caustic, many guys just couldn't stay around. It was obvious there would be no let up until anyone perceived as a threat to the established way of thinking and doing things was gone.

It was an opportunity missed. It was a moment squandered. The summer of 2007 presented us with a chance to launch the youth and young ministers of the UPC into a new era of growth and unity. Instead, the system turned on itself and cut off its nose to spite its face.

A sat in the prayer service today visualizing that profound worship moment as "All I Need Is You" played and people prayed. It was feeling of mixed emotions. Whereas it was a pleasant memory of a powerful, deep and lasting time of heartfelt praise and worship I'll not soon forget, it was tinged with sorrow at the thought that we had been presented with an epic opportunity that slipped through our fingers.

1.It wasn't in Greensboro that year...it was in Charlotte NC. Just thought I'd clarify.

2. I don't remember being told this. It just happened. When, I'm in the presence of God....I can't help but MOVE. As a praise team member for NAYC 07 it was our job to usher in the presence of God....to engage the congregation in praise and worship....furthermore, you cannot do all of that by just standing there like statues. The audience will feed off of what ever is going on on the stage. If everything is still...no movement, so will the audience be. It's almost like a science....it's hard to explain. We are human, we are flesh, we are visual.

I'm so glad to be a part of the ever changing United Pentecostal Church International.

[POWERUP]

1.It wasn't in Greensboro that year...it was in Charlotte NC. Just thought I'd clarify.

2. I don't remember being told this. It just happened. When, I'm in the presence of God....I can't help but MOVE. As a praise team member for NAYC 07 it was our job to usher in the presence of God....to engage the congregation in praise and worship....furthermore, you cannot do all of that by just standing there like statues. The audience will feed off of what ever is going on on the stage. If everything is still...no movement, so will the audience be. It's almost like a science....it's hard to explain. We are human, we are flesh, we are visual.

I'm so glad to be a part of the ever changing United Pentecostal Church International.

???????????????????????????

[aegsm76]

DB - a view from the other side.
The NAYC of 07 was a great time, as most NAYC's have been. However, with the impending vote on TV, there were some events that made some of the UC's look a little skeptically at some things.
An interview with someone who was a hero on TV? Seems like this would have been deemed to be taking a side in the discussion.
Also, an interview with a young man who overcame a physical handicap and was a wrestler? Again, seems to be taking a side.
For the UC's in the org, it seemed to be just another attempt to overthrow things that had long been preached and taught against.
The way the leadership of the org seemed to be determined to bring up the TV vote, every year, until it passed? Seemed to be taking a side.
I had young people at NAYC 07, but was not able to go myself.
They were touched and had a great time.
I knew Todd Gaddy.
I knew Wayne Francis.
My sons went on mission trips with them.
I think they are good men, but they are men and did have a viewpoint that they may have wanted to push, a little.

[Praxeas]

???????????????????????????

Please elaborate.

[Praxeas]

Ironically the UPC was started and shaped by critical thought and preaching when they preached baptism in Jesus name and Oneness. The AOGers frowned and the OPs left.

Now we do the same thing to those in our ranks, attempting to stifle anythng "new" without discussion

[Hoovie]

Ok I can see this. So now what? The UC's took their toys and left..

DB - a view from the other side.
The NAYC of 07 was a great time, as most NAYC's have been. However, with the impending vote on TV, there were some events that made some of the UC's look a little skeptically at some things.
An interview with someone who was a hero on TV? Seems like this would have been deemed to be taking a side in the discussion.
Also, an interview with a young man who overcame a physical handicap and was a wrestler? Again, seems to be taking a side.
For the UC's in the org, it seemed to be just another attempt to overthrow things that had long been preached and taught against.
The way the leadership of the org seemed to be determined to bring up the TV vote, every year, until it passed? Seemed to be taking a side.
I had young people at NAYC 07, but was not able to go myself.
They were touched and had a great time.
I knew Todd Gaddy.
I knew Wayne Francis.
My sons went on mission trips with them.
I think they are good men, but they are men and did have a viewpoint that they may have wanted to push, a little.

[Digging4Truth]

DB - a view from the other side.
The NAYC of 07 was a great time, as most NAYC's have been. However, with the impending vote on TV, there were some events that made some of the UC's look a little skeptically at some things.
An interview with someone who was a hero on TV? Seems like this would have been deemed to be taking a side in the discussion.
Also, an interview with a young man who overcame a physical handicap and was a wrestler? Again, seems to be taking a side.
For the UC's in the org, it seemed to be just another attempt to overthrow things that had long been preached and taught against.
The way the leadership of the org seemed to be determined to bring up the TV vote, every year, until it passed? Seemed to be taking a side.
I had young people at NAYC 07, but was not able to go myself.
They were touched and had a great time.
I knew Todd Gaddy.
I knew Wayne Francis.
My sons went on mission trips with them.
I think they are good men, but they are men and did have a viewpoint that they may have wanted to push, a little.

The view from the other side seems to confirm DB's take on the story.

[CC1]

Interesting thread Deacon. It is rather ironic that an org. that is facing a huge deficit in young preachers would stifle the younger generation.

I think it is natural for the older folks to start to hold sacred the form and fashion they are used to even when it is not biblical (opposing blue jeans and casual shirts with no ties on the platform, etc). However it is a time where they must not react in knee jerk fashion but should take another look at the book and see what is really important. They don't have to agree with or like how the younger generation has church or worships as long as it is within biblical guidelines.

[Orthodoxy]

I think it is natural for the older folks to start to hold sacred the form and fashion they are used to even when it is not biblical (opposing blue jeans and casual shirts with no ties on the platform, etc). However it is a time where they must not react in knee jerk fashion but should take another look at the book and see what is really important. They don't have to agree with or like how the younger generation has church or worships as long as it is within biblical guidelines.

Good post.

[Pastor Keith]

When a organization makes decisions based on fear, rather than moving out in faith and risk taking, its days are numbered.

This is the pattern of history, notably church history, ebbs and flows of the Spirit upon humanity. He will move on to others, I believe mostly Asians and Africans.

[Charnock]

Very good, Deacon.

[Pendragon]

Is there anywhere online I can hear Mark Johnston, specifically from Because of the Times 2008? Or transcripts?

[Charnock]

Btw, Deacon, Mark Johnston had a bullseye on his back from the moment he preached at General Conference. The establishment was hopping mad!

Of course, MJ has a bit of an arrogance problem, and that didn't help anything.

[Aleks Fife]

Btw, Deacon, Mark Johnston had a bullseye on his back from the moment he preached at General Conference. The establishment was hopping mad!

Of course, MJ has a bit of an arrogance problem, and that didn't help anything.

How about who was this kid? Such a political move. Some great preachers who have never been asked to preach a general conference, and then they have this arrogant kid up there.

[unitedpraise10]

Btw, Deacon, Mark Johnston had a bullseye on his back from the moment he preached at General Conference. The establishment was hopping mad!

Of course, MJ has a bit of an arrogance problem, and that didn't help anything.

Whats the story behind him leaving....and events leading up to his leaving. I've not heard anything on why yet...

[Aleks Fife]

Whats the story behind him leaving....and events leading up to his leaving. I've not heard anything on why yet...

He emerged with the emergent movement. Still has a blog and posts regularly on FB. He got his face time in the spotlight and used that influence to drag people into the emerging wave with him.

[unitedpraise10]

He emerged with the emergent movement. Still has a blog and posts regularly on FB. He got his face time in the spotlight and used that influence to drag people into the emerging wave with him.

Very vague......

[Aleks Fife]

Very vague......

do you want it oprah style? he was a home missions pastor, got self-righteous about his work, saw the upc has an old dinosaur movement, and turned his card in (or let it expire)

[deacon blues]

1.It wasn't in Greensboro that year...it was in Charlotte NC. Just thought I'd clarify.

2. I don't remember being told this. It just happened. When, I'm in the presence of God....I can't help but MOVE. As a praise team member for NAYC 07 it was our job to usher in the presence of God....to engage the congregation in praise and worship....furthermore, you cannot do all of that by just standing there like statues. The audience will feed off of what ever is going on on the stage. If everything is still...no movement, so will the audience be. It's almost like a science....it's hard to explain. We are human, we are flesh, we are visual.

I'm so glad to be a part of the ever changing United Pentecostal Church International.

My bad on confusing Charlotte/Greensboro.

When I said singers were "told" to gyrate I was speaking on behalf of those who had that perception, the critics. I thought the music and the singing was as good as I had heard in all my years in the UPC. The critics wanted to tear down anything they could think of about that youth congress. The music was an obvious and easy target. It always is to the malcontents in church.

[deacon blues]

How about who was this kid? Such a political move. Some great preachers who have never been asked to preach a general conference, and then they have this arrogant kid up there.

No one more cocky than Jeff Arnold. He gets a pass because of his friends and connections. He says inflammatory things and everyone laughs. Mark told the truth, stripped off the facade of the elitism among the UPC establishment and got crucified.

Funny thing, preaching against celebrity and Phariseeism should get a hearty "Amen!" from everyone. Instead preachers who see themselves as celebrities and practice Phariseeism got offended and killed the messenger.

[deacon blues]

He emerged with the emergent movement. Still has a blog and posts regularly on FB. He got his face time in the spotlight and used that influence to drag people into the emerging wave with him.

Mark only reflected what was the reality. First, none of the so-called emergent guys among us considered themselves emergent. It was a way to demonize people, just like you're doing now. Labels like "trinitarian" "compromiser" "worldly" "liberal" "charismatic" have been used to blackball and defame individuals for years in the UPC. Akin to inquisitions in the Roman Catholic Church.

[Digging4Truth]

He emerged with the emergent movement. Still has a blog and posts regularly on FB. He got his face time in the spotlight and used that influence to drag people into the emerging wave with him.

I don't know anything about this particular situation but reading this post it makes me wonder what all went on.

It is common to ostracize a person in such a manner as to drive them out and then to go on to mark everything they do and all they get involved in as evil.

It makes me wonder if 2007 is behind the constant negative rhetoric against anything that contains the word emergent.

[The Lemon]

I don't know the details, and quite frankly they are not my business, but I have been around Mark and i don't see him as arrogant, zealous, but not arrogant.

From what I have seen, folks in alot of Churches are hungry for real relationship with Jesus, and like it or not, sometimes you have to peel away some layers of "religion" to find that and start over. There is nothing evil or wrong about having standards and convictions, but some folks have made the list equal in all standings to their relationship with Christ.

Imagine waking up one day and realizing that the greatest link to your God is performance and perception - not saying that was the case with Mark, but I know for others it is and was. Sometimes we need to get rid of our trophies and crowns of accomplishment and go back to the simple and yet profound message of the cross..

[Digging4Truth]

I don't know the details, and quite frankly they are not my business, but I have been around Mark and i don't see him as arrogant, zealous, but not arrogant.

From what I have seen, folks in alot of Churches are hungry for real relationship with Jesus, and like it or not, sometimes you have to peel away some layers of "religion" to find that and start over. There is nothing evil or wrong about having standards and convictions, but some folks have made the list equal in all standings to their relationship with Christ.

Imagine waking up one day and realizing that the greatest link to your God is performance and perception - not saying that was the case with Mark, but I know for others it is and was. Sometimes we need to get rid of our trophies and crowns of accomplishment and go back to the simple and yet profound message of the cross..

:thumbsup:highfive:thumbsup

[rgcraig]

This afternoon we had a Holy Week prayer service. One of the songs playing over the system during prayer was "All I Need is You". I was taken back to one of the most poigniant moments in my life.

A sat in the prayer service today visualizing that profound worship moment as "All I Need Is You" played and people prayed. It was feeling of mixed emotions. Whereas it was a pleasant memory of a powerful, deep and lasting time of heartfelt praise and worship I'll not soon forget, it was tinged with sorrow at the thought that we had been presented with an epic opportunity that slipped through our fingers.

The lesson is hard to learn when men are involved........."All I Need is You"

[POWERUP]

How about who was this kid? Such a political move. Some great preachers who have never been asked to preach a general conference, and then they have this arrogant kid up there.

Arrogant............. or just confident............ or maybe just preach what
God tells him to preach!!!!!!!!

Not what the board wants him to preach........Just saying.......Only my
thoughts..

[POWERUP]

He emerged with the emergent movement. Still has a blog and posts regularly on FB. He got his face time in the spotlight and used that influence to drag people into the emerging wave with him.

Oh Boy................. here we go................:foottap

[Digging4Truth]

The lesson hard to learn when men are involved........."All I Need is You"

Indeed. It is said of government that "It's dangerous to be right when the government is wrong".

The same could be said of church bodies & organizations as well.

[POWERUP]

I don't know anything about this particular situation but reading this post it makes me wonder what all went on.

It is common to ostracize a person in such a manner as to drive them out and then to go on to mark everything they do and all they get involved in as evil.

It makes me wonder if 2007 is behind the constant negative rhetoric against anything that contains the word emergent.

D4T, Alot of people wouldn't know what emergent meant if it hit them in
the mouth!!!!!!!!!!!

[Digging4Truth]

D4T, Alot of people wouldn't know what emergent meant if it hit them in
the mouth!!!!!!!!!!!

Yep... So true.

[CC1]

Whats the story behind him leaving....and events leading up to his leaving. I've not heard anything on why yet...

If you go to 'The D.A's Office" part of AFF there is a thread titled "Mark Johnson Drops.....". There you will find discussion of him leaving and links to his church website, blog, etc.

[Orthodoxy]

D4T, Alot of people wouldn't know what emergent meant if it hit them in
the mouth!!!!!!!!!!!

You're right; the word is often not defined well. There is more than one kind of "emergent."

For example, there's "Mark Driscoll emergent" and then there's "Rob Bell emergent." Two totally different strains of the emerging movement.

[Sam]

...Imagine waking up one day and realizing that the greatest link to your God is performance and perception - not saying that was the case with Mark, but I know for others it is and was. Sometimes we need to get rid of our trophies and crowns of accomplishment and go back to the simple and yet profound message of the cross..

Someone said, "It's easier to cast out devils than it is to cast out religion."

[Bella1]

This afternoon we had a Holy Week prayer service. One of the songs playing over the system during prayer was "All I Need is You". I was taken back to one of the most poigniant moments in my life.

We had taken three vanloads of teenagers and adults to Greensboro, NC for the 2007 North American Youth Congress. For many it was their first taste of such an event. Walking into that arena filled with 18,000 teenagers and young adults was a powerful experience. The worship was the best worship setting I had ever been in. It seemed like every song was a home run that elicited sincere praise and worship from the tens of thousands there. Our group was greatly impacted by that week. The highlight moment was when the praise band played "All I Need Is You". Words cannot describe the depth of worship that was demonstrated there. In all of my years in the UPC I had never seen anything like it. Our young people were hungry. The youth leadership seemed poised to really launch some things that would make history.

I had never been more proud to be in the UPC. It felt like this was a pivotal moment where the youth of the UPC were going to bridge the past with the present and lead us to a brighter future. The sessions during the day were on target, relevant and challenging. The activities were well planned and exciting. Special guests and interviews showcased young people who were making a difference. The messages at night were spot on. Todd Gaddys sermon the final night was from the heart. No hype, just straight, visionary and inspiring.

After all the events I had been to over the years, I had never been to a finer one in the UPC. No BOTT topped this one, no campmeeting, no crusade, no other event like 2007 NAYC. I talked about it for weeks after we came home.

I started to hear rumblings of criticism and discontent from other circles. I heard stories about preachers calling for Wayne Francis to be removed. I heard about Todd Gaddy taking shots from preachers who had attended NAYC and didn't like it.

The dye was cast. It didn't matter that kids by the thousands went home encouraged, inspired and ready to make a differenc ein their churches and community. It didn't matter that some people found Jesus at that event. It didn't matter that a young girl, Amber, from our group got saved. She had no family in church, but her life was changed forever at that meeting.

No, politics ruled the day. HQ got barraged with complaints from preachers who had attended or simply heard the rumors. The youth leadership got a good scolding and was asked why Brother Haney or Brother Jones weren't invited to speak to the youth. Why did they invite the young lady who was the voice of Dora the Explorer who was also a member of a UPC church to be interviewed and placed on the platform? Why all the contemporary music? Why were the praise singers encouraged to move and sway and gyrate to the music? The worship leader didn't wear a tie! Many of the praise singers wore jeans on the platform and had untucked shirts! On and on it went.

The internet burned up with negativity about the direction of the UPC. Preaching at subsequent marqee events made references to the appalling state of affairs of the UPC. In October at the Tampa General Conference, Mark Johnston emerged as a powerful voice for the young people and young ministers of the UPC. His sermon "I'd Rather Be a Hero than a Celebrity" was the talk of the conference. Yet the entire conference was overshadowed by a vote to allow tv advertising in the UPC. The resolution narrowly passed. The most conservative among us had been planning to bolt should the resolution pass. Household UPC names would leave within the year and form a new organization.

Panic about the future of the UPC began to mount. With the loss of very conservative men and ministries, would the UPC become a liberal fellowship? There were enough traditionalists left that they were going to make sure that would not happen. Mark Johnston became persona non grata after his message about Jesus and the Pharisees entitled "This Preemminent Jesus" at BOTT 2008. His popularity would wane and his invitations to large events would end in the UPC. Campmeetings and preaching conferences were charged with references to "these young preachers" trying to leave "this" truth, labels like "emergent church" were being slapped on anything and anybody asking questions or challenging the status quo, reputations were being defamed simply by fantasy or by association.

A group of young preachers met in Pontiac, MI for fellowship and encouragement. It was by invitation only. The conspiracy theories produced by those two days abounded. More innuendo, more internet alienation, more castigation. Young preachers began dropping off here and there. The environment became so caustic, many guys just couldn't stay around. It was obvious there would be no let up until anyone perceived as a threat to the established way of thinking and doing things was gone.

It was an opportunity missed. It was a moment squandered. The summer of 2007 presented us with a chance to launch the youth and young ministers of the UPC into a new era of growth and unity. Instead, the system turned on itself and cut off its nose to spite its face.

A sat in the prayer service today visualizing that profound worship moment as "All I Need Is You" played and people prayed. It was feeling of mixed emotions. Whereas it was a pleasant memory of a powerful, deep and lasting time of heartfelt praise and worship I'll not soon forget, it was tinged with sorrow at the thought that we had been presented with an epic opportunity that slipped through our fingers.

I also was there that year. I was with 55 young adults from our church in West Houston. EVERY young person left that meeting with thier mind made up to serve God a little harder, with more compassion, with more love.

I was PROUD of the Praise Singers, due to the fact that two of our own Young Adults from our church was on the platform. One singing. One playing the drums. I moved. I danced. THAT meeting has carried me through one of the WORST times of my life.

There was such a spirit of Unity in that Arena. Thank you for the Post, DB. You brought back some GREAT memories!

[POWERUP]

You're right; the word is often not defined well. There is more than one kind of "emergent."

For example, there's "Mark Driscoll emergent" and then there's "Rob Bell emergent." Two totally different strains of the emerging movement.

I guess what I'm trying to say is............. If people don't know what there talking about............. Just Hush!!!!! My mom taught me to not say the other........:happydance

[Pastor Keith]

Some time back, either on this forum or another, I proved strongly there are no emergents in the UPCI as defined by Evangelicals. I even asked for names so we could examine them further to see if there are emergent themes, and not one forum member could present a single name.

Some believe if your not preaching against something, then your not having revival. We are so removed from a Cross Centered preaching.

Cross centered preaching is about what Jesus did, not about what I do.

[Aleks Fife]

You're right; the word is often not defined well. There is more than one kind of "emergent."

For example, there's "Mark Driscoll emergent" and then there's "Rob Bell emergent." Two totally different strains of the emerging movement.

and neither of those groups are apostolic

[Pastor Keith]

You're right; the word is often not defined well. There is more than one kind of "emergent."

For example, there's "Mark Driscoll emergent" and then there's "Rob Bell emergent." Two totally different strains of the emerging movement.

Mark defines himself as being missional.

Rob is, well Rob is...

[Sam]

...Some believe if your not preaching against something, then your not having revival. We are so removed from a Cross Centered preaching.

Cross centered preaching is about what Jesus did, not about what I do.

:thumbsup:thumbsup

[Theophil]

do you want it oprah style? he was a home missions pastor, got self-righteous about his work, saw the upc has an old dinosaur movement, and turned his card in (or let it expire)

He emerged with the emergent movement. Still has a blog and posts regularly on FB. He got his face time in the spotlight and used that influence to drag people into the emerging wave with him.

At best, misconceptions and slander...at worst lies and slander.

[POWERUP]

At best, misconceptions and slander...at worst lies and slander.

Now thats a fact!!!!!!!!!!!!!:thumbsup

[Aleks Fife]

your own reality

[aegsm76]

The 07 NAYC could have been just an impactful, without trying to be "cutting edge".
And without seeming to take sides in an upcoming debate.

As far as Mark Johnston, does anyone know what he believes it takes to be saved?
I've been to the church website and I cannot find it.

[Aleks Fife]

The 07 NAYC could have been just an impactful, without trying to be "cutting edge".
And without seeming to take sides in an upcoming debate.

As far as Mark Johnston, does anyone know what he believes it takes to be saved?
I've been to the church website and I cannot find it.

save your time, he's a strong one stepper

[LifeGuide]

This afternoon we had a Holy Week prayer service. One of the songs playing over the system during prayer was "All I Need is You". I was taken back to one of the most poigniant moments in my life.

We had taken three vanloads of teenagers and adults to Greensboro, NC for the 2007 North American Youth Congress. For many it was their first taste of such an event. Walking into that arena filled with 18,000 teenagers and young adults was a powerful experience. The worship was the best worship setting I had ever been in. It seemed like every song was a home run that elicited sincere praise and worship from the tens of thousands there. Our group was greatly impacted by that week. The highlight moment was when the praise band played "All I Need Is You". Words cannot describe the depth of worship that was demonstrated there. In all of my years in the UPC I had never seen anything like it. Our young people were hungry. The youth leadership seemed poised to really launch some things that would make history.

I had never been more proud to be in the UPC. It felt like this was a pivotal moment where the youth of the UPC were going to bridge the past with the present and lead us to a brighter future. The sessions during the day were on target, relevant and challenging. The activities were well planned and exciting. Special guests and interviews showcased young people who were making a difference. The messages at night were spot on. Todd Gaddys sermon the final night was from the heart. No hype, just straight, visionary and inspiring.

After all the events I had been to over the years, I had never been to a finer one in the UPC. No BOTT topped this one, no campmeeting, no crusade, no other event like 2007 NAYC. I talked about it for weeks after we came home.

I started to hear rumblings of criticism and discontent from other circles. I heard stories about preachers calling for Wayne Francis to be removed. I heard about Todd Gaddy taking shots from preachers who had attended NAYC and didn't like it.

The dye was cast. It didn't matter that kids by the thousands went home encouraged, inspired and ready to make a differenc ein their churches and community. It didn't matter that some people found Jesus at that event. It didn't matter that a young girl, Amber, from our group got saved. She had no family in church, but her life was changed forever at that meeting.

No, politics ruled the day. HQ got barraged with complaints from preachers who had attended or simply heard the rumors. The youth leadership got a good scolding and was asked why Brother Haney or Brother Jones weren't invited to speak to the youth. Why did they invite the young lady who was the voice of Dora the Explorer who was also a member of a UPC church to be interviewed and placed on the platform? Why all the contemporary music? Why were the praise singers encouraged to move and sway and gyrate to the music? The worship leader didn't wear a tie! Many of the praise singers wore jeans on the platform and had untucked shirts! On and on it went.

The internet burned up with negativity about the direction of the UPC. Preaching at subsequent marqee events made references to the appalling state of affairs of the UPC. In October at the Tampa General Conference, Mark Johnston emerged as a powerful voice for the young people and young ministers of the UPC. His sermon "I'd Rather Be a Hero than a Celebrity" was the talk of the conference. Yet the entire conference was overshadowed by a vote to allow tv advertising in the UPC. The resolution narrowly passed. The most conservative among us had been planning to bolt should the resolution pass. Household UPC names would leave within the year and form a new organization.

Panic about the future of the UPC began to mount. With the loss of very conservative men and ministries, would the UPC become a liberal fellowship? There were enough traditionalists left that they were going to make sure that would not happen. Mark Johnston became persona non grata after his message about Jesus and the Pharisees entitled "This Preemminent Jesus" at BOTT 2008. His popularity would wane and his invitations to large events would end in the UPC. Campmeetings and preaching conferences were charged with references to "these young preachers" trying to leave "this" truth, labels like "emergent church" were being slapped on anything and anybody asking questions or challenging the status quo, reputations were being defamed simply by fantasy or by association.

A group of young preachers met in Pontiac, MI for fellowship and encouragement. It was by invitation only. The conspiracy theories produced by those two days abounded. More innuendo, more internet alienation, more castigation. Young preachers began dropping off here and there. The environment became so caustic, many guys just couldn't stay around. It was obvious there would be no let up until anyone perceived as a threat to the established way of thinking and doing things was gone.

It was an opportunity missed. It was a moment squandered. The summer of 2007 presented us with a chance to launch the youth and young ministers of the UPC into a new era of growth and unity. Instead, the system turned on itself and cut off its nose to spite its face.

A sat in the prayer service today visualizing that profound worship moment as "All I Need Is You" played and people prayed. It was feeling of mixed emotions. Whereas it was a pleasant memory of a powerful, deep and lasting time of heartfelt praise and worship I'll not soon forget, it was tinged with sorrow at the thought that we had been presented with an epic opportunity that slipped through our fingers.

Great post deac. I also took a charter bus of young people. Many of which did not have an Apostolic background. Their lives were eternally impacted. Several were baptized with the HG having never been in an event like NAYC '07. I personally went home feeling a deeper call on my life. For the first time, i felt like I could fit. The movement I had been raised in was making room for my ministry. I even contemplated ordination. But then, not even 2 weeks after arriving home. My phone lit up. "What did you think about...", "Can you believe they..."? I was taken totally off-guard. I couldn't imagine how anyone who attended those services could have been offended. My friends who ministered @ NAYC '07, of whom some have already been mentioned, were also surprised. I felt badly for them. Their intentions were not to hurt or offend anyone. And for those who must always point out the "sides" to certain issues, none of the programming was intended to influence anyone's "vote" or opinion. Each interview and message was focused on forwarding The Kingdom. There was no hidden agenda. I ended up not seeking ordination from the movement I love. I still minister to young people in the same church, with the same pastor whose name many on this forum would know. We still invite our friends to come and minister to our congregation and @ special events. They have moved on. I've heard it said that Ministry is all about walking into the pain. You've got to walk into the pain. They've lost friends as people have chosen "sides", but God has used them and is continuing to use their ministries to open doors to places our movement has never been allowed to walk through. Sorry for the rant. I appreciate your spirit Deacon. And I love everyone who has posted. I just pray that we can get beyond the "sides" issue and unite for the sake of the kingdom.

[CC1]

I am surprised that anybody is surprised at the general response to something progressive happening within the UPC. It is a religious sect built around distinctives. Doctrinal (Oneness), dress code, and traditions.

Anything that challenges any of those areas is rejected and attacked. It has to be to maintain the status quo. Any change has to be so incremental as to be almost invisibile.

[Pastor Keith]

I am surprised that anybody is surprised at the general response to something progressive happening within the UPC. It is a religious sect built around distinctives. Doctrinal (Oneness), dress code, and traditions.

Anything that challenges any of those areas is rejected and attacked. It has to be to maintain the status quo. Any change has to be so incremental as to be almost invisibile.

The UPCI is like those Jews in Fiddler of the Roof, freaked out if anyone changes anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRdfX7ut8gw&feature=share

[On The Wheel]

No one more cocky than Jeff Arnold. He gets a pass because of his friends and connections. He says inflammatory things and everyone laughs. Mark told the truth, stripped off the facade of the elitism among the UPC establishment and got crucified.

Funny thing, preaching against celebrity and Phariseeism should get a hearty "Amen!" from everyone. Instead preachers who see themselves as celebrities and practice Phariseeism got offended and killed the messenger.

Ultra-cons go on and on about an "unfettered pulpit" and preaching the truth "without fear or favor". That stands until somebody with guts stands up to preach to the preachers using the Word of God to back up his assertions. Then they have to shut him up.

Only certain truths are allowed to be proclaimed in certain pulpits. Every time I hear those UC's speak about an "unfettered pulpit" now I almost puke.

[Sam]

I am surprised that anybody is surprised at the general response to something progressive happening within the UPC. It is a religious sect built around distinctives. Doctrinal (Oneness), dress code, and traditions.

Anything that challenges any of those areas is rejected and attacked. It has to be to maintain the status quo. Any change has to be so incremental as to be almost invisibile.

:thumbsup:thumbsup

[deltaguitar]

2007 was the year that I left the UPC. I was a wreck and I had no foundation. Less than six months after leaving my faith in christ was stronger by 100 times anything I had ever had in the UPC.

Leading up to 2007 there was something changing with people I was connected to. People were ready to break out. We had started having a revival at our church that pushed us past the boundaries. We went after serving Christ and getting away from the dogma. We loved those who were different and we invited those kids that were the trouble makers.

Somehow we were thinking that the mindset of the UPC was changing. We went to visit Jeremy Foster down in Monroe and were amazed at how they were doing things. We saw kids who were not pentecostal who were coming to their services.

The truth, we had no clue what we were doing. For the first time in our lives we were doing something that had never been allowed and we were running as fast as we could. There were moves of God and lives changed. We took the youth to the Mississippi youth convention in fall of 2006 and even though the speakers were good and preached a "relevant" message and the UPC seemed as progressive as we had ever known, we made up in our minds at that moment that we could not subject our new youth to the
culture or the mindset of the UPC.

Our kids didn't fit in. They didn't have the right look nor did they understand the culture. The preachers mentioned standards or cutting hair and they looked at us like we were crazy.

It was then that we decided, and because we were young we didn't know any better, we vocally started voicing our concerns to people we thought would understand. By that time it was out of control. We couldn't go back to what we had known.

We were accused of not teaching truth (baptism and holy ghost infilling). We already were not enforcing the standards and that upset a lot of folks. Even the youth that loved us turned on us because they were entrenched in the UPC way of thinking and they were upset that we were moving away from the truth.

DB, the reason I mention all of this is because your story brings back a lot of those memories. There was a time when I felt God's spirit so strong in the movement and I thought that the movement would change.

Now, almost four years later, I thank God for getting me out. I still wake up with nightmares that I am in a pentecostal church and people are expecting me to perform at the altar.

I couldn't have done it on my own but because of the way things happened God exploded our lives. It all started with hunger and wanting revival. I just couldn't reconcile that people that I loved and cared for would never make it in our church and might actually never be saved because of the way our church was.

So much has happened in four years. I have seen the collapse of my former church which went through at least two splits during that time. I have myself not only left the UPC but Pentecostalism totally. Many young people that I know have left the UPC, some to go on to be better Christians, and then some who have gone into the depths of sin.

I moved to the Dallas area and go to a reformed church where the gospel is preached and hundreds are turned away every week for lack of space. They gave $280,000 to missions just last month.

DB, there is a revival. It is happening. I see it everyday. Your post reminds me so much of how I once felt. At some point we need to cut our losses and realize we cannot change the movement.

The young preachers are not leaving because they aren't given power or chances. They are leaving because they cannot fight the uphill battle anymore. There are lines drawn in the sand that have absolutely no biblical basis.

[POWERUP]

2007 was the year that I left the UPC. I was a wreck and I had no foundation. Less than six months after leaving my faith in christ was stronger by 100 times anything I had ever had in the UPC.

Leading up to 2007 there was something changing with people I was connected to. People were ready to break out. We had started having a revival at our church that pushed us past the boundaries. We went after serving Christ and getting away from the dogma. We loved those who were different and we invited those kids that were the trouble makers.

Somehow we were thinking that the mindset of the UPC was changing. We went to visit Jeremy Foster down in Monroe and were amazed at how they were doing things. We saw kids who were not pentecostal who were coming to their services.

The truth, we had no clue what we were doing. For the first time in our lives we were doing something that had never been allowed and we were running as fast as we could. There were moves of God and lives changed. We took the youth to the Mississippi youth convention in fall of 2006 and even though the speakers were good and preached a "relevant" message and the UPC seemed as progressive as we had ever known, we made up in our minds at that moment that we could not subject our new youth to the
culture or the mindset of the UPC.

Our kids didn't fit in. They didn't have the right look nor did they understand the culture. The preachers mentioned standards or cutting hair and they looked at us like we were crazy.

It was then that we decided, and because we were young we didn't know any better, we vocally started voicing our concerns to people we thought would understand. By that time it was out of control. We couldn't go back to what we had known.

We were accused of not teaching truth (baptism and holy ghost infilling). We already were not enforcing the standards and that upset a lot of folks. Even the youth that loved us turned on us because they were entrenched in the UPC way of thinking and they were upset that we were moving away from the truth.

DB, the reason I mention all of this is because your story brings back a lot of those memories. There was a time when I felt God's spirit so strong in the movement and I thought that the movement would change.

Now, almost four years later, I thank God for getting me out. I still wake up with nightmares that I am in a pentecostal church and people are expecting me to perform at the altar.

I couldn't have done it on my own but because of the way things happened God exploded our lives. It all started with hunger and wanting revival. I just couldn't reconcile that people that I loved and cared for would never make it in our church and might actually never be saved because of the way our church was.

So much has happened in four years. I have seen the collapse of my former church which went through at least two splits during that time. I have myself not only left the UPC but Pentecostalism totally. Many young people that I know have left the UPC, some to go on to be better Christians, and then some who have gone into the depths of sin.

I moved to the Dallas area and go to a reformed church where the gospel is preached and hundreds are turned away every week for lack of space. They gave $280,000 to missions just last month.

DB, there is a revival. It is happening. I see it everyday. Your post reminds me so much of how I once felt. At some point we need to cut our losses and realize we cannot change the movement.

The young preachers are not leaving because they aren't given power or chances. They are leaving because they cannot fight the uphill battle anymore. There are lines drawn in the sand that have absolutely no biblical basis.

I'm with you bro.............:thumbsup

[Digging4Truth]

2007 was the year that I left the UPC. I was a wreck and I had no foundation. Less than six months after leaving my faith in christ was stronger by 100 times anything I had ever had in the UPC.

Leading up to 2007 there was something changing with people I was connected to. People were ready to break out. We had started having a revival at our church that pushed us past the boundaries. We went after serving Christ and getting away from the dogma. We loved those who were different and we invited those kids that were the trouble makers.

Somehow we were thinking that the mindset of the UPC was changing. We went to visit Jeremy Foster down in Monroe and were amazed at how they were doing things. We saw kids who were not pentecostal who were coming to their services.

The truth, we had no clue what we were doing. For the first time in our lives we were doing something that had never been allowed and we were running as fast as we could. There were moves of God and lives changed. We took the youth to the Mississippi youth convention in fall of 2006 and even though the speakers were good and preached a "relevant" message and the UPC seemed as progressive as we had ever known, we made up in our minds at that moment that we could not subject our new youth to the
culture or the mindset of the UPC.

Our kids didn't fit in. They didn't have the right look nor did they understand the culture. The preachers mentioned standards or cutting hair and they looked at us like we were crazy.

It was then that we decided, and because we were young we didn't know any better, we vocally started voicing our concerns to people we thought would understand. By that time it was out of control. We couldn't go back to what we had known.

We were accused of not teaching truth (baptism and holy ghost infilling). We already were not enforcing the standards and that upset a lot of folks. Even the youth that loved us turned on us because they were entrenched in the UPC way of thinking and they were upset that we were moving away from the truth.

DB, the reason I mention all of this is because your story brings back a lot of those memories. There was a time when I felt God's spirit so strong in the movement and I thought that the movement would change.

Now, almost four years later, I thank God for getting me out. I still wake up with nightmares that I am in a pentecostal church and people are expecting me to perform at the altar.

I couldn't have done it on my own but because of the way things happened God exploded our lives. It all started with hunger and wanting revival. I just couldn't reconcile that people that I loved and cared for would never make it in our church and might actually never be saved because of the way our church was.

So much has happened in four years. I have seen the collapse of my former church which went through at least two splits during that time. I have myself not only left the UPC but Pentecostalism totally. Many young people that I know have left the UPC, some to go on to be better Christians, and then some who have gone into the depths of sin.

I moved to the Dallas area and go to a reformed church where the gospel is preached and hundreds are turned away every week for lack of space. They gave $280,000 to missions just last month.

DB, there is a revival. It is happening. I see it everyday. Your post reminds me so much of how I once felt. At some point we need to cut our losses and realize we cannot change the movement.

The young preachers are not leaving because they aren't given power or chances. They are leaving because they cannot fight the uphill battle anymore. There are lines drawn in the sand that have absolutely no biblical basis.

Great post.

A preacher called me once and asked "What can we do to fix the church?". I told him I would pray about it and call him back. After some prayer I called him back and said "Sometimes the cost of maintenance begins to rival the cost of replacement and you have to cut your losses and just do something new."

As oneness pentecostals we make up less than 1% of the population of the world. Why even spend time fighting against headstrong leadership with there is 99% of the world out there waiting to be ministered to?

One doesn't enjoy lengthy success when they stand against the movement of a glacier. The movement is slow... but it's steady and it won't be stopped.

[The Lemon]

Interesting post Delta...thanks for being so transparent. I am glad you left a movement but di not leave the move of God. In my life, I am trying to weed out many things, not the least of which is the performanced based mentality that I was under for 14years. This process is agonizingly hard. I too have seen folks move on and be blessed, and have seen folks turn their back on God altogether..it is a travesty.

I want relationship..pure and simple, and you are right it is very difficult going to a church that you know your extended family and neighbors would not attend, even if you tried to make a deal with them! I understand the culture, and I can deal with what I don't agree with peaceably...but those who are not familiar are totally turned off with some of the super spiritual services.

The other issue, at least for me, is the business model of "the church", it is set up like a corporation with a CEO etc. and I just don't agree with it. I have to admit, I want nothing to do with any more fundraisers, building fund programs, and all the rest of the things that take care of the "house of God". There is a simplicity that I am trying to uncover in my life that revolves around loving God, loving my family, and loving people.

I realize that it takes time, money, etc. to make an impact for God. I just think that for the most part the system that is set up makes for alot of burnout, frustration, and leads to leagalism, and a stagnent relationship that is more tied to perception and religious exercise then it is to the reality of Jesus and his ever present love and grace.

Just my thoughts..

[POWERUP]

Great post.

A preacher called me once and asked "What can we do to fix the church?". I told him I would pray about it and call him back. After some prayer I called him back and said "Sometimes the cost of maintenance begins to rival the cost of replacement and you have to cut your losses and just do something new."

As oneness pentecostals we make up less than 1% of the population of the world. Why even spend time fighting against headstrong leadership with there is 99% of the world out there waiting to be ministered to?

One doesn't enjoy lengthy success when they stand against the movement of a glacier. The movement is slow... but it's steady and it won't be stopped.

D4T, I remember several years ago I was at my Dads and we were listening
to some old General Conference Records.......... Yep......... Records.. Lol

Anyway, my dad had a preacher on the record he was trying to get me to
guess who it was......... I guessed until I finally just gave up...The guy
was very eloquent in his speech, had a great thought, and you could tell
he was being used by God.......

He was talking about how the UPC needed to change directions, do something
different, sounded like a message me or you would preach......

Wellllllllllllllllllll............. the year was 1974!!!!! Speaker was Kenneth Phillips!!:thumbsup

[deltaguitar]

Interesting post Delta...thanks for being so transparent. I am glad you left a movement but di not leave the move of God. In my life, I am trying to weed out many things, not the least of which is the performanced based mentality that I was under for 14years. This process is agonizingly hard. I too have seen folks move on and be blessed, and have seen folks turn their back on God altogether..it is a travesty.

I want relationship..pure and simple, and you are right it is very difficult going to a church that you know your extended family and neighbors would not attend, even if you tried to make a deal with them! I understand the culture, and I can deal with what I don't agree with peaceably...but those who are not familiar are totally turned off with some of the super spiritual services.

The other issue, at least for me, is the business model of "the church", it is set up like a corporation with a CEO etc. and I just don't agree with it. I have to admit, I want nothing to do with any more fundraisers, building fund programs, and all the rest of the things that take care of the "house of God". There is a simplicity that I am trying to uncover in my life that revolves around loving God, loving my family, and loving people.

I realize that it takes time, money, etc. to make an impact for God. I just think that for the most part the system that is set up makes for alot of burnout, frustration, and leads to leagalism, and a stagnent relationship that is more tied to perception and religious exercise then it is to the reality of Jesus and his ever present love and grace.

Just my thoughts..

Good post. One of the things that attracted me to the group I am with now it the biblical elders and deacons. Even the pastor is accountable to another pastor. They will not build another building because they want to keep planting churches and sending to missions. Last month they sent $280,000 out to other churches or missions.

There is a good series preached last Fall on authority and church government you might enjoy. I think it is seven sermons long. If you go to the site below you can download the sermons or search the village church on itunes.

http://fm.thevillagechurch.net/sermons

[Orthodoxy]

There is a good series preached last Fall on authority and church government you might enjoy. I think it is seven sermons long. If you go to the site below you can download the sermons or search the village church on itunes.

http://fm.thevillagechurch.net/sermons

I'm listening through the The Village's Habakkuk series right now on my iPod.

[Digging4Truth]

D4T, I remember several years ago I was at my Dads and we were listening
to some old General Conference Records.......... Yep......... Records.. Lol

Anyway, my dad had a preacher on the record he was trying to get me to
guess who it was......... I guessed until I finally just gave up...The guy
was very eloquent in his speech, had a great thought, and you could tell
he was being used by God.......

He was talking about how the UPC needed to change directions, do something
different, sounded like a message me or you would preach......

Wellllllllllllllllllll............. the year was 1974!!!!! Speaker was Kenneth Phillips!!:thumbsup

Yes sir.

It's easier to just step outside these invisible lines we are continually asked to mind and just walk out into a big world and do what God says to do.

[deltaguitar]

I'm listening through the The Village's Habakkuk series right now on my iPod.

I saw it from the front row! :) My wife is deaf so we have saved seats.

[Sam]

2007 was the year that I left the UPC. I was a wreck and I had no foundation. Less than six months after leaving my faith in christ was stronger by 100 times anything I had ever had in the UPC.

Leading up to 2007 there was something changing with people I was connected to. People were ready to break out. We had started having a revival at our church that pushed us past the boundaries. We went after serving Christ and getting away from the dogma. We loved those who were different and we invited those kids that were the trouble makers.

Somehow we were thinking that the mindset of the UPC was changing. We went to visit Jeremy Foster down in Monroe and were amazed at how they were doing things. We saw kids who were not pentecostal who were coming to their services.

The truth, we had no clue what we were doing. For the first time in our lives we were doing something that had never been allowed and we were running as fast as we could. There were moves of God and lives changed. We took the youth to the Mississippi youth convention in fall of 2006 and even though the speakers were good and preached a "relevant" message and the UPC seemed as progressive as we had ever known, we made up in our minds at that moment that we could not subject our new youth to the
culture or the mindset of the UPC.

Our kids didn't fit in. They didn't have the right look nor did they understand the culture. The preachers mentioned standards or cutting hair and they looked at us like we were crazy.

It was then that we decided, and because we were young we didn't know any better, we vocally started voicing our concerns to people we thought would understand. By that time it was out of control. We couldn't go back to what we had known.

We were accused of not teaching truth (baptism and holy ghost infilling). We already were not enforcing the standards and that upset a lot of folks. Even the youth that loved us turned on us because they were entrenched in the UPC way of thinking and they were upset that we were moving away from the truth.

DB, the reason I mention all of this is because your story brings back a lot of those memories. There was a time when I felt God's spirit so strong in the movement and I thought that the movement would change.

Now, almost four years later, I thank God for getting me out. I still wake up with nightmares that I am in a pentecostal church and people are expecting me to perform at the altar.

I couldn't have done it on my own but because of the way things happened God exploded our lives. It all started with hunger and wanting revival. I just couldn't reconcile that people that I loved and cared for would never make it in our church and might actually never be saved because of the way our church was.

So much has happened in four years. I have seen the collapse of my former church which went through at least two splits during that time. I have myself not only left the UPC but Pentecostalism totally. Many young people that I know have left the UPC, some to go on to be better Christians, and then some who have gone into the depths of sin.

I moved to the Dallas area and go to a reformed church where the gospel is preached and hundreds are turned away every week for lack of space. They gave $280,000 to missions just last month.

DB, there is a revival. It is happening. I see it everyday. Your post reminds me so much of how I once felt. At some point we need to cut our losses and realize we cannot change the movement.

The young preachers are not leaving because they aren't given power or chances. They are leaving because they cannot fight the uphill battle anymore. There are lines drawn in the sand that have absolutely no biblical basis.

Great post DG.

I have said repeatedly that "The House of God is much larger than the little room we were living in."

We each have to find the place in the Body of Christ where we feel like we fit.

I left a UPC church in 1963/64 to attend an ALJC church with "relaxed standards." About 15 years later we (my wife and I) felt like we had to leave that church because the pastor had taken a stand for long hair on women and against facial hair on men. For over 10 years we did not go to church. We just sorta dropped out. I attended some Bible Studies at General Electric where I worked so I still had a walk with God but did not feel like He was using me. I attended a Vineyard Church from 1992 to 2006. There I took part in outreach, did some teaching, was a POC (Pastor On Call) and was part of the prayer ministry. Just before Easter 2006 we started attending the Hamilton Dream Center http://www.hamiltondreamcenter.org/
It is more of a ministry than it is a church. We work a lot with children and youth. It bothers me a little to see new converts baptized using the traditional FS&HG words but I do believe that the condition of their hearts is more important than the words spoken. I am active in FGBMFI (Full Gospel Business Men's Fellowship International); I'm the clergy advisor to the local "Aglow International" group; I've done some teaching/preaching/speaking at our local church midweek services, at a nearby FGBMFI meeting, and at a weekly prayer meeting of 12-25 people that has been meeting for just over 49 years; I am still part of the home and hospital team for the Vineyard even though I left there 6 years ago (we made one home visit Tuesday and will be making a hospital visit later today); I've even preached a couple of times in the last few months at a local Jesus' name church about 78 miles away and the pastor of that church and I both signed the ministerial application for credentials of a man for affiliation with The Churches of Jesus Christ International with which I have maintained my ordination.

[soldoutochrist]

How about who was this kid? Such a political move. Some great preachers who have never been asked to preach a general conference, and then they have this arrogant kid up there.

I don't remember much from GC Tampa, but I do remember that MJ's sermon was one of the few that stuck with me.

[aegsm76]

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

[Digging4Truth]

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Go ahead. Finish the point. Go ahead and put the whole thought into words. You know you want to.

[Sam]

... Some great preachers who have never been asked to preach a general conference, and then they have this arrogant kid up there.

I have never in my life (I'm 73 years old) been asked to preach at the UPC GC, and probably never will be.

[POWERUP]

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

I've heard the wind blow before.................:foottap

[aegsm76]

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?


I firmly believe there will be some who believe they have/had it all together that will fit into this category.
Some may be UC's and some may be UL's.

[NorCal]

Sigh, that just notes it comes down to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Even trinitarians do things "in the name of Jesus". So to point fingers at anyone is wrong.

[pelathais]

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

... and the Lord will say, "I don't even know you with your women who trim their hair and wear bifurcated garments and men with facial hair wearing cargo shorts..." ????

Nope. That's not what the Lord will say.

[pelathais]

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?


I firmly believe there will be some who believe they have/had it all together that will fit into this category.
Some may be UC's and some may be UL's.

Those labels are such misnomers. "Ultra-conservative" and "Ultra-liberal." Even the "Conservative/Liberal" dichotomy is deceptive.

Those on this board who have proudly claimed the tag of "UC" were actually pursuing a path of radical change. By definition, a "conservative" is someone who seeks less change and the change they allow is sought more slowly.

These guys were always wanting to kick somebody out of the fellowship to assuage their brittle egos. That's not how a conservative behaves.

Just my two cents concerning a pet peeve of mine. Thanks for being there. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Sister Alvear]

Well...we are in for surprises on that Day...

[Sam]

... and the Lord will say, "I don't even know you with your women who trim their hair and wear bifurcated garments and men with facial hair wearing cargo shorts..."

.


Preach it, Brutha!
Preach it!

You preach it and I'll take the offering.

Halleluyer!!!!

[Digging4Truth]

... and the Lord will say, "I don't even know you with your women who trim their hair and wear bifurcated garments and men with facial hair wearing cargo shorts..." ????

Nope. That's not what the Lord will say.

And then someone will point to Jesus... with his facial hair... and say Oooops. :)

[aegsm76]

Funny how a simple quoting of the word leads people to jump to their own conclusions.
:):)
As Sis. Alvear says, I think we are in for some surprises on that Day.
I really didn't mean to point fingers at anyone.
But there is an old saying, something to the tune of, the one who squawks is usually the one who got hit!

[deacon blues]

Some time back, either on this forum or another, I proved strongly there are no emergents in the UPCI as defined by Evangelicals. I even asked for names so we could examine them further to see if there are emergent themes, and not one forum member could present a single name.

Some believe if your not preaching against something, then your not having revival. We are so removed from a Cross Centered preaching.

Cross centered preaching is about what Jesus did, not about what I do.

The history of the UPC is rife with demonization those that you can't control. I guess its the nature of all religious hierarchies. Use labels to defame soneone's character, build the straw man that we have to fight.

The last few meetings I went to after that NAYC, someone had to get up and take potshots at these "young preachers trying to change this message". I just thought to myself, "You know, I've seen this before. Several times. Its never going to end. Time to ride off into the sunset."

[Digging4Truth]

Funny how a simple quoting of the word leads people to jump to their own conclusions.
:):)
As Sis. Alvear says, I think we are in for some surprises on that Day.
I really didn't mean to point fingers at anyone.
But there is an old saying, something to the tune of, the one who squawks is usually the one who got hit!

I simply asked you to finish your point because, depending on ones take on the situation, the verse could equally be applied to either side.

[deacon blues]

2007 was the year that I left the UPC. I was a wreck and I had no foundation. Less than six months after leaving my faith in christ was stronger by 100 times anything I had ever had in the UPC.

Leading up to 2007 there was something changing with people I was connected to. People were ready to break out. We had started having a revival at our church that pushed us past the boundaries. We went after serving Christ and getting away from the dogma. We loved those who were different and we invited those kids that were the trouble makers.

Somehow we were thinking that the mindset of the UPC was changing. We went to visit Jeremy Foster down in Monroe and were amazed at how they were doing things. We saw kids who were not pentecostal who were coming to their services.

The truth, we had no clue what we were doing. For the first time in our lives we were doing something that had never been allowed and we were running as fast as we could. There were moves of God and lives changed. We took the youth to the Mississippi youth convention in fall of 2006 and even though the speakers were good and preached a "relevant" message and the UPC seemed as progressive as we had ever known, we made up in our minds at that moment that we could not subject our new youth to the
culture or the mindset of the UPC.

Our kids didn't fit in. They didn't have the right look nor did they understand the culture. The preachers mentioned standards or cutting hair and they looked at us like we were crazy.

It was then that we decided, and because we were young we didn't know any better, we vocally started voicing our concerns to people we thought would understand. By that time it was out of control. We couldn't go back to what we had known.

We were accused of not teaching truth (baptism and holy ghost infilling). We already were not enforcing the standards and that upset a lot of folks. Even the youth that loved us turned on us because they were entrenched in the UPC way of thinking and they were upset that we were moving away from the truth.

DB, the reason I mention all of this is because your story brings back a lot of those memories. There was a time when I felt God's spirit so strong in the movement and I thought that the movement would change.

Now, almost four years later, I thank God for getting me out. I still wake up with nightmares that I am in a pentecostal church and people are expecting me to perform at the altar.

I couldn't have done it on my own but because of the way things happened God exploded our lives. It all started with hunger and wanting revival. I just couldn't reconcile that people that I loved and cared for would never make it in our church and might actually never be saved because of the way our church was.

So much has happened in four years. I have seen the collapse of my former church which went through at least two splits during that time. I have myself not only left the UPC but Pentecostalism totally. Many young people that I know have left the UPC, some to go on to be better Christians, and then some who have gone into the depths of sin.

I moved to the Dallas area and go to a reformed church where the gospel is preached and hundreds are turned away every week for lack of space. They gave $280,000 to missions just last month.

DB, there is a revival. It is happening. I see it everyday. Your post reminds me so much of how I once felt. At some point we need to cut our losses and realize we cannot change the movement.

The young preachers are not leaving because they aren't given power or chances. They are leaving because they cannot fight the uphill battle anymore. There are lines drawn in the sand that have absolutely no biblical basis.

Really, really great post. I think you encapsulate a lot of what your generation has experienced. It is sad to think of the young people who were damaged in that atmosphere. God responds to the hunger of young people. Its incumbent upon us who should be mature to reach out and create a life-giving environment for newborn or potentially newborn Christians. Unfortunately there are a lot of Pentecostal churches, sad to say, that are rife with immature people who should be mature considering all the years they have been in church and the volumes of preaching and teaching they have received. And yet so many still don't "get it".

Glad to know you didn't let it destroy your faith.

[Narrow Is The Way]

1.It wasn't in Greensboro that year...it was in Charlotte NC. Just thought I'd clarify.

2. I don't remember being told this. It just happened. When, I'm in the presence of God....I can't help but MOVE. As a praise team member for NAYC 07 it was our job to usher in the presence of God....to engage the congregation in praise and worship....furthermore, you cannot do all of that by just standing there like statues. The audience will feed off of what ever is going on on the stage. If everything is still...no movement, so will the audience be. It's almost like a science....it's hard to explain. We are human, we are flesh, we are visual.

I'm so glad to be a part of the ever changing United Pentecostal Church International.
Proverbs 24:21

[aegsm76]

I simply asked you to finish your point because, depending on ones take on the situation, the verse could equally be applied to either side.

And that is exactly the way I meant it!

Another appropriate scripture would be "and by their fruits, ye shall know them".