God Loves Me More than He Loves You Because...

[Charnock]

This is something I've noticed more and more as I've aged. People that write or testify about the tornado that struck 14 houses in the area and killed all of the inhabitants, and yet the person writing or speaking was spared. They normally say something like, "I'm thankful for the goodness of God!"

Isn't that akin to saying God loves you more than He loved the ones who died?

Or..."All of my coworkers got laid off, but my job was spared. Thank you, Jesus!"

Isn't that akin to saying God loves you more than He loved the ones who lost their job?

Or..."I saw a 3 car pile-up on my way home tonight. If I would have left a few minutes earlier, I would have been in the wreck too."

Isn't that like saying that God protected you, and didn't protect the others?

Isn't this line of thinking very self-absorbed? Is good fortune always a sign of the favor of God? Do bad things ever happen to good people?

[*AQuietPlace*]

I struggle with this issue. If we truly believe in God, it doesn't seem that we should believe in 'fate'. And yet, it's hard to understand why 1 person out of 100 has their life saved. Or why truly awful things happen to some people. It really is very hard to wrap your mind around.

[MissBrattified]

Not something I've really figured out (why bad things happen to good people), but I do intend to continue thanking God for the good things that come our way. Narcissistic or not, I feel that it's important. :) Good fortune isn't always a sign of God's favor anymore than disaster is a sign of His wrath.

If you follow your own logic, you'll need to stop praying over your meals and thanking God for your food--there are people starving in other parts of the world. If you assume God provided your meals (or the means to stock your pantry), then you're assuming that He loves you more than those who are starving to death. You must determine, then, that your food is on your table purely by chance or by your own hand, and God had nothing to do with it. It's the only way to assume that He is fair (and equally uninvolved) in the meals of the starving or satisfied.

[Adam]

John was called the "beloved disciple". Does that mean Jesus loves him more than he loves me?

[Pressing-On]

I don't think about it because I know that God has been very kind, caring, forgiving and merciful in my life. Knowing that I am not more important than anyone else, I know He is watching everything going on around us and I simply leave it all in His capable hands.

[houston]

"...it rains on the just and the unjust..."

[houston]

"Life happens."

[Hoovie]

This is one of the reasons I find myself yet again returning to the teachings I recieved in my youth. We were taught there is no direct correlation between wealth/health and the favor of God. There are plenty who have wealth and health but know not God.

There are exceptions of course, like those who abuse their health and harm their bodies - and those who aren't good stewards with what they have recieved. We do often reap what we sow in this life.

Bottom line is, the sovereignty of God and His unsearchable ways are THE operative in all our lives. If we pretend to fully know and understand the will of God we are usually outside our realm. The key for mortals is to seek the Lord, submit to His will, as it is revealed in and through our lives, and to be thankful in all things.

[houston]

Luke 13:1-5

[Praxeas]

This is something I've noticed more and more as I've aged. People that write or testify about the tornado that struck 14 houses in the area and killed all of the inhabitants, and yet the person writing or speaking was spared. They normally say something like, "I'm thankful for the goodness of God!"

Isn't that akin to saying God loves you more than He loved the ones who died?

Or..."All of my coworkers got laid off, but my job was spared. Thank you, Jesus!"

Isn't that akin to saying God loves you more than He loved the ones who lost their job?

Or..."I saw a 3 car pile-up on my way home tonight. If I would have left a few minutes earlier, I would have been in the wreck too."

Isn't that like saying that God protected you, and didn't protect the others?

Isn't this line of thinking very self-absorbed? Is good fortune always a sign of the favor of God? Do bad things ever happen to good people?
Then what can we thank God for?

Don't thank God for healing. Don't thank him for any blessing. Someone might be offended and take that to mean God loves you more than others

[Hoovie]

I think the implication is that we must give thanks in all things for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus.

Our thanksgiving towards God should not be performance or results driven. The cross was enough.

[Charnock]

We should absolutely thank God in all these situations, but we shouldn't consider His mercy a sign that He loves us more than the less fortunate.

If we both live healthy lifestyles and yet one of us lives 30 years longer than the other, does that mean God prefers one of us over the other?

[Hoovie]

We should absolutely thank God in all these situations, but we should'nt consider His mercy a sigm that He loves us more than the less fortunate.

If we both live healthy lifestyles and yet one of us lives 30 years longer than the other, does that mean God prefers one of us over the other?

No. I agree. This is all fallout from the prosperity and faith healer (God does not want you to be sick) teachings.

We presume waaaay to much. It's arrogance instead of Biblical humility.

[Hoovie]

This might be a good thread to interject that I have moderate back pain and some joint pain I would love to get shed of.

While I covet any well wishes and prayers, there is no need to question the love of God towards me. I know in whom I have believed.

[Timmy]

I struggle with this issue. If we truly believe in God, it doesn't seem that we should believe in 'fate'. And yet, it's hard to understand why 1 person out of 100 has their life saved. Or why truly awful things happen to some people. It really is very hard to wrap your mind around.

Not for me. ;)

[Aquila]

God's ultimate purpose for the believer is that they be conformed into the image of Jesus. For some believers this takes tragedy and pain. For others it seems to take a long life, filled with blessing. We should rejoice and be thankful as God works this work in us, come what may.

Should God choose cancer as a tool to conform us into the image of Christ, we should rejoice in it, testifying of His goodness. If God chooses blessing we should do the same.

[ILG]

These testimonials (and I used to say the same stuff) are a problem for me in regards to the faith. I was taught that we knew all the truth and it was just our job to spread it around. Also, things like you mention were always attributed to God's favor on our lives and, in reality, that's quite sick, because it really, really hurt those who ended up sick or in an accident or losing their job. Not only did they have to deal with the issue itself, but their own beliefs and the attitudes of those who judged them for bad things happening. Ironically, some would quote Job and say that bad things happened to him but you were always left wondering. How much better if we could really trust in God.

[Timmy]

God's ultimate purpose for the believer is that they be conformed into the image of Jesus. For some believers this takes tragedy and pain. For others it seems to take a long life, filled with blessing. We should rejoice and be thankful as God works this work in us, come what may.

Should God choose cancer as a tool to conform us into the image of Christ, we should rejoice in it, testifying of His goodness. If God chooses blessing we should do the same.

:blink

[Michlow]

God's ultimate purpose for the believer is that they be conformed into the image of Jesus. For some believers this takes tragedy and pain. For others it seems to take a long life, filled with blessing. We should rejoice and be thankful as God works this work in us, come what may.

Should God choose cancer as a tool to conform us into the image of Christ, we should rejoice in it, testifying of His goodness. If God chooses blessing we should do the same.

:blink

I thought God was supposed to be like a parent? Gently guiding his children. If you decided that your child needed "tragedy and pain" to have good character, I think that would result in the state taking your children away!

[Timmy]

I thought God was supposed to be like a parent? Gently guiding his children. If you decided that your child needed "tragedy and pain" to have good character, I think that would result in the state taking your children away!

Don't get me started. :toofunny

[ILG]

Well.....you know, there is a difference between discipline and abuse. But, sometimes little children get cancer.

[Timmy]

Well.....you know, there is a difference between discipline and abuse. But, sometimes little children get cancer.

Not because their (earthly) parents thought it would be best for them.

[Aquila]

These testimonials (and I used to say the same stuff) are a problem for me in regards to the faith. I was taught that we knew all the truth and it was just our job to spread it around. Also, things like you mention were always attributed to God's favor on our lives and, in reality, that's quite sick, because it really, really hurt those who ended up sick or in an accident or losing their job. Not only did they have to deal with the issue itself, but their own beliefs and the attitudes of those who judged them for bad things happening. Ironically, some would quote Job and say that bad things happened to him but you were always left wondering. How much better if we could really trust in God.

As I type this I have a friend named Elizabeth who has cancer. Of course she's praying for healing and being encouraged to "have faith" almost to the point of denying the reality she faces. Everyone around her is "standing in faith with her" and assuring her that God will "come through miraculously". Recently she sunk into a deep depression because her most recent examination brought forth bad news. So far... the cancer is winning. Everyone encouraged her to "hang in there" and "believe God for a healing" and not to allow her "faith to waver". My heart was broken by this. I wanted to tell her that God's purpose for her is simply this... that she be conformed into the image of Jesus. That means...taking up and embracing our cross (the very thing that will kill us) and following Jesus. I wanted to tell her that should God choose to heal her, she should rejoice and give testimony to God's goodness and grace. And if God chooses not to, she should live in a way that reflects thankfulness for God's blessings. Each day is a priceless gift. Through her trial she could give God much glory in surrender, sharing His love, and demonstrating what it means to trust God with our very lives. I wanted to encourage her to accept that if this road is what it takes to be conformed into the image of Jesus, she should rejoice and give thanks, because the Father is working to glorify her. Her giving glory and honor to God in the shadow of cancer could be a greater witness than her healing. I haven’t said anything to her because most would say I’m being faithless. But I’d like to share these thoughts if I had a chance to talk to her.

[John Atkinson]

This is something I've noticed more and more as I've aged. People that write or testify about the tornado that struck 14 houses in the area and killed all of the inhabitants, and yet the person writing or speaking was spared. They normally say something like, "I'm thankful for the goodness of God!"

Isn't that akin to saying God loves you more than He loved the ones who died?

Or..."All of my coworkers got laid off, but my job was spared. Thank you, Jesus!"

Isn't that akin to saying God loves you more than He loved the ones who lost their job?

Or..."I saw a 3 car pile-up on my way home tonight. If I would have left a few minutes earlier, I would have been in the wreck too."

Isn't that like saying that God protected you, and didn't protect the others?

Isn't this line of thinking very self-absorbed? Is good fortune always a sign of the favor of God? Do bad things ever happen to good people?

I don't believe that this doctrine holds up scripturally.

2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

People who are serving God die in car wrecks, plane crashes, get laid off from jobs, get cancer, and all the whole bit like everybody else.

I don't think that Jesus was telling the guys that repentance is a get out of calamity free card, just that when calamity comes there is a solid backup plan even if the tower falls on you and squashes you like a bug.

It is possible for two people to get laid off from the same job, one serving God, one not. A year later both still unemployed, both still in the same unpleasant situation and the one without this hope eats a bullet while the one with lets the Joy of the Lord be his strength and faith keeps him afloat.

In similar scenario, the one serving the Lord does not get laid off, while the one not serving him does, and maybe that is nothing more than statistics, or maybe it is because the one serving Jesus is a better employee because he works as unto the Lord, not as a boss pleaser.

In a true scenario almost two years ago now the guy I worked with in my office, also a Christian was laid off. It wasn't because God loves me better because of Jesus name baptism. It was simply because he could only do his job and my skill set and adaptability meant I could do mine and his.

In that time the poor guy has yet to find another job... but he is doing ok because the Lord is on his side.

That is the difference.

What we have to be thankful for is that when the rug gets yanked out from under us, we still have something to keep us upright. And if by chance the rug being yanked causes us to break our neck and die, then we have a place prepard for us... so its all good.

Sure, if I narrowly miss a car accident I am going to praise the Lord for it. But I understand that the next one might get me regardless.

[NorCal]

I thought God was supposed to be like a parent? Gently guiding his children. If you decided that your child needed "tragedy and pain" to have good character, I think that would result in the state taking your children away!

Doth not nature teach us by pain? Put your hand on a hot stove. Now tell me you will do that again on purpose?

The bible saids "Spare the rod and you spoil the child". God never Gently guided Israel. They sinned, they were punished. Pestilence, Famine, Slavery, even Death.

I love home people preach "God is Love / merciful" but forget that he is Just and "slow to wrath". Does not mean he abstains from it.

Go ahead an Lie to the Holy Spirit. Ananias and Sapphira found that out the hard way what happens when you do. And that was in the New Testament.


As to the subject at hand. Life happens. Deal with it.

[Timmy]

Doth not nature teach us by pain? Put your hand on a hot stove. Now tell me you will do that again on purpose?

The bible saids "Spare the rod and you spoil the child". God never Gently guided Israel. They sinned, they were punished. Pestilence, Famine, Slavery, even Death.

I love home people preach "God is Love / merciful" but forget that he is Just and "slow to wrath". Does not mean he abstains from it.

Go ahead an Lie to the Holy Spirit. Ananias and Sapphira found that out the hard way what happens when you do. And that was in the New Testament.


As to the subject at hand. Life happens. Deal with it.

Exactly what I'm doing, thanks. ;)

[Hoovie]

As I type this I have a friend named Elizabeth who has cancer. Of course she's praying for healing and being encouraged to "have faith" almost to the point of denying the reality she faces. Everyone around her is "standing in faith with her" and assuring her that God will "come through miraculously". Recently she sunk into a deep depression because her most recent examination brought forth bad news. So far... the cancer is winning. Everyone encouraged her to "hang in there" and "believe God for a healing" and not to allow her "faith to waver". My heart was broken by this. I wanted to tell her that God's purpose for her is simply this... that she be conformed into the image of Jesus. That means...taking up and embracing our cross (the very thing that will kill us) and following Jesus. I wanted to tell her that should God choose to heal her, she should rejoice and give testimony to God's goodness and grace. And if God chooses not to, she should live in a way that reflects thankfulness for God's blessings. Each day is a priceless gift. Through her trial she could give God much glory in surrender, sharing His love, and demonstrating what it means to trust God with our very lives. I wanted to encourage her to accept that if this road is what it takes to be conformed into the image of Jesus, she should rejoice and give thanks, because the Father is working to glorify her. Her giving glory and honor to God in the shadow of cancer could be a greater witness than her healing. I haven’t said anything to her because most would say I’m being faithless. But I’d like to share these thoughts if I had a chance to talk to her.


Spot on! You say it so well here.

No false hope or false promise. Just the facts - through Christ, we win. May He be glorified in all in all things.

[Michlow]

Doth not nature teach us by pain? Put your hand on a hot stove. Now tell me you will do that again on purpose?

The bible saids "Spare the rod and you spoil the child". God never Gently guided Israel. They sinned, they were punished. Pestilence, Famine, Slavery, even Death.

I love home people preach "God is Love / merciful" but forget that he is Just and "slow to wrath". Does not mean he abstains from it.

Go ahead an Lie to the Holy Spirit. Ananias and Sapphira found that out the hard way what happens when you do. And that was in the New Testament.


As to the subject at hand. Life happens. Deal with it.

This reminds me of the crossroads that I found myself at when I finally decided to walk away. I realized that either god was nothing like I had been taught he was (i.e. your description of him above), and if he was, I wanted absolutely nothing to do with him.

[NorCal]

This reminds me of the crossroads that I found myself at when I finally decided to walk away. I realized that either god was nothing like I had been taught he was (i.e. your description of him above), and if he was, I wanted absolutely nothing to do with him.

Even Jesus was driven to wrath at the money changers in the temple. I think the problem with Christian society today is that there is not fear of God or eternal damnation. All that is preached is "Love Love Love Love". What ever happened to messages like "Sinners in the hands of an Angry God"?

God is Absolutely Holy. Sin can not glory in his presence. The wages of sin is death eternal, but the gift of God is eternal life.

He is a loving God in that he became our Savior and did not eliminate us (humans) when we sinned. He gave us a way.

[Michlow]

Even Jesus was driven to wrath at the money changers in the temple. I think the problem with Christian society today is that there is not fear of God or eternal damnation. All that is preached is "Love Love Love Love". What ever happened to messages like "Sinners in the hands of an Angry God"?

God is Absolutely Holy. Sin can not glory in his presence. The wages of sin is death eternal, but the gift of God is eternal life.

He is a loving God in that he became our Savior and did not eliminate us (humans) when we sinned. He gave us a way.

You misunderstand me. I heard NOTHING but about wrath and judgment and damnation and punishment and suffering. I lived every waking moment of my life in fear that I was in some way doing something wrong. My life became a prison where every thought, every deed, every word could possibly be the thing that was going to send me to hell.

[NorCal]

You misunderstand me. I heard NOTHING but about wrath and judgment and damnation and punishment and suffering. I lived every waking moment of my life in fear that I was in some way doing something wrong. My life became a prison where every thought, every deed, every word could possibly be the thing that was going to send me to hell.

Ah, OK understand you now.

We just have to remember that God is a Balanced God. He both Loves and Hates. Merciful and Vengeful.

We also have to remember that the problems of this life are due to the corruption of the first man Adam. We are not free from that corruption until we have a Glorified body. So until then "Life" happens.

[Parkbench]

I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all....hmmmm

[Aquila]

Even Jesus was driven to wrath at the money changers in the temple. I think the problem with Christian society today is that there is not fear of God or eternal damnation. All that is preached is "Love Love Love Love". What ever happened to messages like "Sinners in the hands of an Angry God"?

I do see what you're saying. However, Christ's anger and warnings concerning judgment were typically directed towards the religious Pharisees...not tax collectors, drunkards, prostitutes, and sinners. Interestingly, Jesus fellowshipped the broken and the sinners over the prim and proper religionists and legalists. In fact... the sinners found such grace in Christ's message the entire city was moved to welcom Him in celebration shouting, "Hosana!"

I'm reminded of a verse in Romans...

Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

God loved us, and Christ died for us... while we were yet sinners. Yes, we deserve Hell... but God provided grace. Messages of judgment must always be tempered with grace. Because it is the discovery of God's goodness that draws the human heart.

God is Absolutely Holy. Sin can not glory in his presence. The wages of sin is death eternal, but the gift of God is eternal life.

He is a loving God in that he became our Savior and did not eliminate us (humans) when we sinned. He gave us a way.

Amen. Thank you Jesus for the cross.

[Aquila]

You misunderstand me. I heard NOTHING but about wrath and judgment and damnation and punishment and suffering. I lived every waking moment of my life in fear that I was in some way doing something wrong. My life became a prison where every thought, every deed, every word could possibly be the thing that was going to send me to hell.

It's been my experience that the message of Grace is by and large missing from the Apostolic Pentecostal church.

[Aquila]

Ah, OK understand you now.

We just have to remember that God is a Balanced God. He both Loves and Hates. Merciful and Vengeful.

We also have to remember that the problems of this life are due to the corruption of the first man Adam. We are not free from that corruption until we have a Glorified body. So until then "Life" happens.

I praise God that Christ was my propitiation. That the wrath and vengence of every sin I've ever committed or will commit was poured out on my Savior who died in my place. On Calvary He took on my every sin, even my old man (sin nature) and nailed it to the cross. I am justified before God, pure, clean, white and holy. Why? Because Christ not only took upon Himself my sin and sin nature, He performed an exchange. He took my sin and sin nature upon Himself, in fact becoming sin, so that He might freely offer me His holiness and righteousness. Now my sin nature is dead and the Law consideres me dead. Now I wear a righteousness and holiness that isn't my own. I have received a new and holy nature that is Christ in my, partaking in the Holiness that isn't my own. The greatest discovery I've made is that I am in fact a NEW CREATURE with the divine nature of the Spirit living within. My battle isn't with an old nature that was nailed to the cross... my battle is with the carnal mind that must be renewed. I must now discover who I am in Christ and appropriate that reality, freeing my to allow Christ to live His life through me.

Remember, a creature is born possessing it's parents nature. When I was born again, I was given the Spirit and partook in Christ's own nature thereby making me a new creature. I am a saint. I am no longer a sinner. When the carnal mind gets the best of me and I sin... I am not a sinner who sinned. I am a saint who has sinned. The very new nature of a born again believer will prevent them from continual and habitual sin. They will be grieved by said sin and desire to be free from said sin, and our Father delivers us from our sins as we pray that He change us.

The grace of God and the truth of our new identity in Christ as new creatures has become the greatest revelation I've ever received.

I am crucified with Christ and yet I live. Not I, but Christ who lives within me!

Praise God!

[ILG]

As I type this I have a friend named Elizabeth who has cancer. Of course she's praying for healing and being encouraged to "have faith" almost to the point of denying the reality she faces. Everyone around her is "standing in faith with her" and assuring her that God will "come through miraculously". Recently she sunk into a deep depression because her most recent examination brought forth bad news. So far... the cancer is winning. Everyone encouraged her to "hang in there" and "believe God for a healing" and not to allow her "faith to waver". My heart was broken by this. I wanted to tell her that God's purpose for her is simply this... that she be conformed into the image of Jesus. That means...taking up and embracing our cross (the very thing that will kill us) and following Jesus. I wanted to tell her that should God choose to heal her, she should rejoice and give testimony to God's goodness and grace. And if God chooses not to, she should live in a way that reflects thankfulness for God's blessings. Each day is a priceless gift. Through her trial she could give God much glory in surrender, sharing His love, and demonstrating what it means to trust God with our very lives. I wanted to encourage her to accept that if this road is what it takes to be conformed into the image of Jesus, she should rejoice and give thanks, because the Father is working to glorify her. Her giving glory and honor to God in the shadow of cancer could be a greater witness than her healing. I haven’t said anything to her because most would say I’m being faithless. But I’d like to share these thoughts if I had a chance to talk to her.

I am so glad that when my husband got cancer, we were not of that mindset. That would have made things SOOOO much worse.

[ILG]

You misunderstand me. I heard NOTHING but about wrath and judgment and damnation and punishment and suffering. I lived every waking moment of my life in fear that I was in some way doing something wrong. My life became a prison where every thought, every deed, every word could possibly be the thing that was going to send me to hell.

Mich,

I understand. I had much more fear after I got into church than I ever had before that. I'm still recuperating.

[Aquila]

Mich,

I understand. I had much more fear after I got into church than I ever had before that. I'm still recuperating.

I've been out of the UPCI for a little over a year now. And I'm also still recuperating in many ways. The church I now attend has a professional Christian counselor who specializes with helping those who leave cults and cultic churches discover what true biblical Christianity and Christian identity is about. Believe it or not, but many who leave cults often have symptoms of PTSD that they have to cope with for years, or even the rest of their lives. I had never heard of that before. I don't think that pastors always understand the damage they can do... or know the condition of broken saints in their churches.

[ILG]

I've been out of the UPCI for a little over a year now. And I'm also still recuperating in many ways. The church I now attend has a professional Christian counselor who specializes with helping those who leave cults and cultic churches discover what true biblical Christianity and Christian identity is about. Believe it or not, but many who leave cults often have symptoms of PTSD that they have to cope with for years, or even the rest of their lives. I had never heard of that before. I don't think that pastors always understand the damage they can do... or know the condition of broken saints in their churches.

I had pretty severe PTSD when I left the UPC. If a leaf blew across the street in front of my car, I would jump so much and lift my foot to stomp the brake. It was ridiculous.

[Michlow]

Mich,

I understand. I had much more fear after I got into church than I ever had before that. I'm still recuperating.

I've been out of the UPCI for a little over a year now. And I'm also still recuperating in many ways. The church I now attend has a professional Christian counselor who specializes with helping those who leave cults and cultic churches discover what true biblical Christianity and Christian identity is about. Believe it or not, but many who leave cults often have symptoms of PTSD that they have to cope with for years, or even the rest of their lives. I had never heard of that before. I don't think that pastors always understand the damage they can do... or know the condition of broken saints in their churches.

I had pretty severe PTSD when I left the UPC. If a leaf blew across the street in front of my car, I would jump so much and lift my foot to stomp the brake. It was ridiculous.

I had a really rough time of it the first few years or so. To be honest, one of the things that really helped me was moving further away from Christianity. I still believe in God, and I still tend to think of Him as Jesus. But I admit that this doesn't have a huge impact on my day to day life.

Yes, sometimes I find it comforting to believe that there is someone in control of the universe, but I like to think that he's not a micro-manager. And yes, I try to live my life in such a way as to "do the right thing", and I confess I don't always know what that means. But I don't overly stress about it. I try to be a good person, a good wife, a good daughter in taking care of my Mom post-transplant, and soon a good mother. But I don't obsess about things the way that I used to. I just kind of live.

[Aquila]

I had a really rough time of it the first few years or so. To be honest, one of the things that really helped me was moving further away from Christianity. I still believe in God, and I still tend to think of Him as Jesus. But I admit that this doesn't have a huge impact on my day to day life.

Yes, sometimes I find it comforting to believe that there is someone in control of the universe, but I like to think that he's not a micro-manager. And yes, I try to live my life in such a way as to "do the right thing", and I confess I don't always know what that means. But I don't overly stress about it. I try to be a good person, a good wife, a good daughter in taking care of my Mom post-transplant, and soon a good mother. But I don't obsess about things the way that I used to. I just kind of live.

What has really helped me is discovering a Biblical understanding of grace.

[onefaith2]

I've been out of the UPCI for a little over a year now. And I'm also still recuperating in many ways. The church I now attend has a professional Christian counselor who specializes with helping those who leave cults and cultic churches discover what true biblical Christianity and Christian identity is about. Believe it or not, but many who leave cults often have symptoms of PTSD that they have to cope with for years, or even the rest of their lives. I had never heard of that before. I don't think that pastors always understand the damage they can do... or know the condition of broken saints in their churches.

I haven't left and I'm recuperating from riding the fence of being committed to God or enjoying the pleasures of life. One of them had to go. Its sad for those that leave the UPC, that they lived their life under the "cult" mentality. I am living proof you do not have to live under that mentality and be in the UPC.

[onefaith2]

I do see what you're saying. However, Christ's anger and warnings concerning judgment were typically directed towards the religious Pharisees...not tax collectors, drunkards, prostitutes, and sinners. Interestingly, Jesus fellowshipped the broken and the sinners over the prim and proper religionists and legalists. In fact... the sinners found such grace in Christ's message the entire city was moved to welcom Him in celebration shouting, "Hosana!"

.

The Bible condemns drunkards, prostitution, and sinning too. Read Galatians 5. The difference is Jesus went to those who practices these things to help them recover. He knew the religious pharisees were too "holy" to see their sin. The drunkards and the prostitutes were not too "holy" to see they needed a Saviour.

[Aquila]

I haven't left and I'm recuperating from riding the fence of being committed to God or enjoying the pleasures of life. One of them had to go. Its sad for those that leave the UPC, that they lived their life under the "cult" mentality. I am living proof you do not have to live under that mentality and be in the UPC.

I regret to inform you but your words contradict what you're saying. You said,

I haven't left and I'm recuperating from riding the fence of being committed to God or enjoying the pleasures of life.

By this you imply that you cannot be committed to God without being a part of the UPCI. You also imply that leaving the UPCI would result in "enjoying the pleasures of life". Yet there is a subconscious acknowledgement... that one cannot enjoy the "pleasures of life" within the UPCI. And that is true. However, it isn't the "pleasures of life" that are wrong. God intends for us to enjoy the "pleasures of life". It is the carnal pleasures of this world that we are to flee from. In all honesty, this is a stereo typical cult mentality.

[onefaith2]

I regret to inform you but your words contradict what you're saying. You said,



By this you imply that you cannot be committed to God without being a part of the UPCI. You also imply that leaving the UPCI would result in "enjoying the pleasures of life". Yet there is a subconscious acknowledgement... that one cannot enjoy the "pleasures of life" within the UPCI. And that is true. However, it isn't the "pleasures of life" that are wrong. God intends for us to enjoy the "pleasures of life". It is the carnal pleasures of this world that we are to flee from. In all honesty, this is a stereo typical cult mentality.

You are reading too much into what I said. I mean that I haven't left but I am recoopering in a different way. You are recouperating after leaving. Totally different.

Pleasures of life include carnal pleasures. How can we separate the two on our own? Christ in us has to do that.

Again I am living proof you don't have to be in a "cult" mentality to be in the UPC. Thats how the pastors and most likely Satan made you feel.

[NorCal]

What I see when people leave the UPC (or other Holiness Church) is all they see is a big list of "Do Nots". That is the total wrong view of living for Christ. That is the true Pharisee-ic attitude. Jesus taught "Love me and you will follow the commandments". The Pharisees preached, follow the Commandments to Love God.

That is the point that most "Christians" do not understand. That is what Onefaith2 and I have been saying all along. UPC is not a list of Can and Can-Nots. If you live like that in your walk, you are not truly saved (and changing towards Christ). You have given over to the "Feel Good" self indulgence that Satan as deceived many with (in Apostolic and Non-Apostolic churches).

[onefaith2]

What I see when people leave the UPC (or other Holiness Church) is all they see is a big list of "Do Nots". That is the total wrong view of living for Christ. That is the true Pharisee-ic attitude. Jesus taught "Love me and you will follow the commandments". The Pharisees preached, follow the Commandments to Love God.

That is the point that most "Christians" do not understand. That is what Onefaith2 and I have been saying all along. UPC is not a list of Can and Can-Nots. If you live like that in your walk, you are not truly saved (and changing towards Christ). You have given over to the "Feel Good" self indulgence that Satan as deceived many with (in Apostolic and Non-Apostolic churches).

Yes there are lots of do's and donts in Holiness churches, JW's, Mormons, and even the Catholic church. Are all they cults? Most would say JW's and Mormons are.

[NorCal]

Yes there are lots of do's and donts in Holiness churches, JW's, Mormons, and even the Catholic church. Are all they cults? Most would say JW's and Mormons are.

There are a lot of "Do and Do Nots" in your Average Christian church also.

JWs? Yes as they do not believe that Jesus Christ is God. Same with Mormons.

Catholics are a touchy subject. Do I believe they are wrong. Yes. A Cult? Possible as they have quite a bit of Non-Biblical practices. Most Apostolic teachings are based on Scripture.

I was listening to Rev Bernard and he explained it quiet well. The UPC believes in Apostolic Authority, not Apostolic Succession. The Catholics believe in Succession with Tradition. That means Scripture and Tradition have equal weight.

Most Apostolics teach the Principles behind the Scriptures.

[Aquila]

The Bible condemns drunkards, prostitution, and sinning too. Read Galatians 5.

Yes. But we read...

Galatians 6:9-11
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Were they sanctified and justified by their "efforts" (works) to change? NO. They were sanctified and justified through the power of Christ's name, and the Spirit of our God. They were justified and sanctified through the product (fruit) of the Spirit, not by their works or efforts. It was the Spirit of God that changed them supernaturally.

The difference is Jesus went to those who practices these things to help them recover.

Wrong. Jesus doesn't need our "help" in sanctifying us. Jesus needs our self to die and efforts to cease. He needs only our complete surrender to His indwelling Spirit as the Spirit produces the fruit of an imputed righteousness that isn't our own. The Christ-life living through us. Struggling with sin? Pray that Christ renew your mind through the Word, appropriate your new identity in Him. Sadly saints think they are "sinners saved by grace" so they act like it. They are no longer sinners. The old man (the old nature) has been nailed to the cross. They are only battling the carnal mind that has yet to be renewed. So many saints don't even know who they are in Christ Jesus. They are like the Japanese unit that was stranded on an island in the Pacific who didn't know the war was over. They need to be reprogrammed, convinced by truth, that they might reckon their old nature nailed to the cross and Christ being the very life living in them. In a legalistic fury they are still at war... a war won on Calvary's hill almost 2,000 years ago. Satan's greatest strategy is to keep a saint immobilized on their knees seeking a rightouesness and identity they already possess in Christ Jesus.

Jesus didn't come to help you make you a better you. Jesus came that you might be crucified in Him, buried in Him, and regenerated, made alive, resurrected, empowered by His indwelling Spirit. Alive unto Christ and Christ alone. It is no longer you that lives... but Christ in you. HE is the air your breathe. Because if it requires your "help" or "effort" it isn't good enough. You can't produce ANYTHING that meets God's holy requirement. All good works produced by effort originate from "self"... a self that should be dead. Die and be animated, possessed, owned, and alive... by the Spirit of the indwelling Christ. Martin Luther once spoke through his door to a man seeking him out saying, "I regret to inform you that Martin Luther is dead." The man disappointed and asked, "Who lives here now?" The voice of Martin Luther then answered from behind the door, "Only Christ."

The notion that Jesus came to "help" you become a better you will leave you in a Satanic defeat and bondage. Jesus came to nail you (your "self") to a Christ with Himself...that He might now live His life through you.

He knew the religious pharisees were too "holy" to see their sin. The drunkards and the prostitutes were not too "holy" to see they needed a Saviour.

The Pharisees thought God was impressed by their futile efforts to live for God. The legalist does the same. It was the sinner who surrendered to the SUPERNATURAL change resulting from Christ's touch.

[Aquila]

The Father doesn't want you to change your behaviors. The Father desires to change your nature and identity, conforming you to the image of Jesus Christ. That's Christianity's ultimate purpose and goal for EVERY believer.

[NorCal]

The Father doesn't want you to change your behaviors. The Father desires to change your nature and identity, conforming you to the image of Jesus Christ. That's Christianity's ultimate purpose and goal for EVERY believer.

And in return, your action, appearance, and spirit (attitude) will change. Remember Faith without Works is dead. If you are not being changed into the Image of the Son, then you do not have Faith.

[ILG]

I had a really rough time of it the first few years or so. To be honest, one of the things that really helped me was moving further away from Christianity. I still believe in God, and I still tend to think of Him as Jesus. But I admit that this doesn't have a huge impact on my day to day life.

Yes, sometimes I find it comforting to believe that there is someone in control of the universe, but I like to think that he's not a micro-manager. And yes, I try to live my life in such a way as to "do the right thing", and I confess I don't always know what that means. But I don't overly stress about it. I try to be a good person, a good wife, a good daughter in taking care of my Mom post-transplant, and soon a good mother. But I don't obsess about things the way that I used to. I just kind of live.

I don't go to church, Mich. It has helped. My kids are raised and pretty much despise any church and won't go either. I can't blame them so I don't.