This Place Is The Only Source Of...

[Jermyn Davidson]

my dose of (if I can borrow someone else's term) Apostolica.

It is with real sadness that I admit that I have not attended my Apostolic church in over a month now.


I don't know how to bring myself to bid my Pastor good bye.

I want to, I really, really want to. But I love the man and his wife, and my old church. I miss them dearly. I miss our services and going to the prayer room there sorely. It bothers me that the church I attend does not have an official prayer room with a times designated throughout the week for prayer . It bothers me that my church thinks clapping their hands with a few seconds of scattered, "Hallelu-Jah's" are worship. My word, do I miss my church! :(


I tried a few months back, to tell my Pastor good-bye, but he convinced me that it was not the best decision and that I may be under some kind of attack. Together, we were convinced that there was room for our diversity, as long as we still believed that the three things are a part of the saved life.

Even if he believes that way, it's not what the UPCI stands for. It just isn't and I know it.

I am not about to bad mouth the UPCI or my former Pastor.


I respectfully disagree with him and the stance of the organization he represents.

Since that is the case, I've changed my place of fellowship.


This has been a very difficult time for me, sincerely.

[scotty]

what stance exactly is it you disagree with ?

[onefaith2]

Where are you going?

[The Mrs]

I wish you well on your journey Jermyn. It's not an easy road. Keep your eyes and heart on God. :heart

[aegsm76]

JD - from my experience, I believe you are headed the wrong way. But, we all have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

[crakjak]

my dose of (if I can borrow someone else's term) Apostolica.

It is with real sadness that I admit that I have not attended my Apostolic church in over a month now.


I don't know how to bring myself to bid my Pastor good bye.

I want to, I really, really want to. But I love the man and his wife, and my old church. I miss them dearly. I miss our services and going to the prayer room there sorely. It bothers me that the church I attend does not have an official prayer room with a times designated throughout the week for prayer . It bothers me that my church thinks clapping their hands with a few seconds of scattered, "Hallelu-Jah's" are worship. My word, do I miss my church! :(


I tried a few months back, to tell my Pastor good-bye, but he convinced me that it was not the best decision and that I may be under some kind of attack. Together, we were convinced that there was room for our diversity, as long as we still believed that the three things are a part of the saved life.

Even if he believes that way, it's not what the UPCI stands for. It just isn't and I know it.

I am not about to bad mouth the UPCI or my former Pastor.


I respectfully disagree with him and the stance of the organization he represents.

Since that is the case, I've changed my place of fellowship.


This has been a very difficult time for me, sincerely.

At some point in each of our lives we must make decisions based on what we know, instead of what we believe. What we know comes from the heart what we believe often is just what we have be told by others and by tradition.

Scripture is foundational for the believer, but must be recieved with the heart.

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

JD, may you find all the paths that HE has set before you.

[Aleks Fife]

my dose of (if I can borrow someone else's term) Apostolica.

It is with real sadness that I admit that I have not attended my Apostolic church in over a month now.


I don't know how to bring myself to bid my Pastor good bye.

I want to, I really, really want to. But I love the man and his wife, and my old church. I miss them dearly. I miss our services and going to the prayer room there sorely. It bothers me that the church I attend does not have an official prayer room with a times designated throughout the week for prayer . It bothers me that my church thinks clapping their hands with a few seconds of scattered, "Hallelu-Jah's" are worship. My word, do I miss my church! :(


I tried a few months back, to tell my Pastor good-bye, but he convinced me that it was not the best decision and that I may be under some kind of attack. Together, we were convinced that there was room for our diversity, as long as we still believed that the three things are a part of the saved life.

Even if he believes that way, it's not what the UPCI stands for. It just isn't and I know it.

I am not about to bad mouth the UPCI or my former Pastor.


I respectfully disagree with him and the stance of the organization he represents.

Since that is the case, I've changed my place of fellowship.


This has been a very difficult time for me, sincerely.

I would tell you to quit trying so hard to please your pastor and to be fearful of him, but I may agree with your pastor (that you shouldn't make a decision when you have questions).

[pelathais]

I would tell you to quit trying so hard to please your pastor and to be fearful of him, but I may agree with your pastor (that you shouldn't make a decision when you have questions).

"Fearful of him..." ??? C'mon.

You're probably just like everyone else - you pick and choose the "pastors" that you're "fearful" of. This isn't a very "fearful" methodology for subitting oneself to "God's anointed" if that is your goal.

JD's pastor (former pastor?) happens to be one of the good guys, or at least one of the better guys in the org. I seriously doubt if even he goes around demanding "fear" from his parishioners. I have family at that church and I know that they don't "fear" the pastor nor have they ever been asked to. They don't even particularly agree with all of the the "standards" or the Three Step but they still like and respect the pastor because he's a likable and respectable guy.

The "fear the pastor" days are coming to an end - hopefully. Such cult like mentalities are not helpful to developing mature qualities in saints and they sure don't do the pastor any good in the long run.

[Aleks Fife]

"Fearful of him..." ??? C'mon.

You're probably just like everyone else - you pick and choose the "pastors" that you're "fearful" of. This isn't a very "fearful" methodology for subitting oneself to "God's anointed" if that is your goal.

JD's pastor (former pastor?) happens to be one of the good guys, or at least one of the better guys in the org. I seriously doubt if even he goes around demanding "fear" from his parishioners. I have family at that church and I know that they don't "fear" the pastor nor have they ever been asked to. They don't even particularly agree with all of the the "standards" or the Three Step but they still like and respect the pastor because he's a likable and respectable guy.

The "fear the pastor" days are coming to an end - hopefully. Such cult like mentalities are not helpful to developing mature qualities in saints and they sure don't do the pastor any good in the long run.

Fear can be self-imposed, and if often connected to desiring the approval of others.

[pelathais]

Fear can be self-imposed, and if often connected to desiring the approval of others.

Yes. But II Kings 2:23-24, gives us the only condition for which we should "fear" a pastor... if he's bald!

:highfive

Where's Charnock to give me an "Amen!"

[CC1]

German, I am not sure I understand but then it has been a long day. For that matter a long year!

Do I understand correctly that you are currently attending a UPC church but are not happy with it and want to change? Or that you have already made a change to another church? If so what kind of church is it and what made you leave your UPC one? You mentioned not enough scheduled prayer and worship not boistrous enough for you but frankly those sound like lame excuses.

[ILG]

Sorry to hear you're going through that, Jermyn. Leaving can be really tough.

[CC1]

Sorry to hear you're going through that, Jermyn. Leaving can be really tough.

Hopefully will not abandon church completely as you and your husband have.:foottap

[canam]

Hopefully will not abandon church completely as you and your husband have.:foottap

Turn your bullet proof vest around backwards ILG , Quick !!

[berkeley]

Hopefully will not abandon church completely as you and your husband have.:foottap

...dang

[berkeley]

JD,

I know that this was not a spur of the moment decision, but that you have been contemplative for a thousand years. Leaving your church family for another isn't easy. Sometimes you have to spread your wings and fly. I do support your reason to leave. I have been there. It's a leap of faith, and you feel alone at a time when you really need to be in good company. The Lord is with you, He has never abandoned you. He is watching over this situation. You are going to learn alot about yourself through this, and you are going to be amazed at the hand of God. I need you to do yourself a favor. When doubts begin to settle in, I need you to remind yourself of His promises to you. I am not sure if I told you about something that I was going through last yr. The only time I felt safety and assurance is when I was in the tangible presence of God. Any other time I was full of doubt and fear. Three times through this, men of God who I was barely aquainted with spoke words to me that were from the Lord and I was assured that God was in it. I know it's vague, but I do not wish to get into detail here. I love you, JD. Give me a call sometime on Saturday. M-F our schedules are in conflict.

[Jermyn Davidson]

what stance exactly is it you disagree with ?

I see the expectation (or demand even) for someone to speak in togues before they are to be considered saved as the foundation for a bad relationship with Jesus Christ and not biblical.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Where are you going?



I have been attending the Assembly of God church in my area.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I wish you well on your journey Jermyn. It's not an easy road. Keep your eyes and heart on God. :heart

Thank you. That is what I am striving for.

[Jermyn Davidson]

At some point in each of our lives we must make decisions based on what we know, instead of what we believe.

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

JD, may you find all the paths that HE has set before you.



So amazingly true!
Thank you.



John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

JD, may you find all the paths that HE has set before you.[/QUOTE]

[Jermyn Davidson]

I would tell you to quit trying so hard to please your pastor and to be fearful of him, but I may agree with your pastor (that you shouldn't make a decision when you have questions).

Your post, and even your further explanation confuses me.

[ILG]

Hopefully will not abandon church completely as you and your husband have.:foottap

Sheesh, CC1. Do ya have to say something about that all the time? You remind me of someone nagging a charismatic about wearing makeup, only one step removed. :girlytantrum

[Jermyn Davidson]

"Fearful of him..." ??? C'mon.

You're probably just like everyone else - you pick and choose the "pastors" that you're "fearful" of. This isn't a very "fearful" methodology for subitting oneself to "God's anointed" if that is your goal.

JD's pastor (former pastor?) happens to be one of the good guys, or at least one of the better guys in the org.

Absolutely true!


I seriously doubt if even he goes around demanding "fear" from his parishioners. I have family at that church and I know that they don't "fear" the pastor nor have they ever been asked to. They don't even particularly agree with all of the the "standards" or the Three Step but they still like and respect the pastor because he's a likable and respectable guy.

Indeed he is the one of the best Pastors, maybe even the BEST Pastor I've ever had as an adult.

Even now, I miss being in church with him.

[ILG]

Turn your bullet proof vest around backwards ILG , Quick !!

LOL! Yeah, CC1 keeps on snipering me.

[onefaith2]

I have been attending the Assembly of God church in my area.

Will you convert to Trinitarianism because they do not have the expectation of every to speak in tongues?

Acts 2:38 is two commands and a promise. THE AOG while embracing the promise of the HG as a priviledge to every believer, does not emphasive their converts to earnestly seek for it.

The General Superintendent or overseer says this about the baptism of the HG "Why would you want a 4 cylinder when you can have a 6 cynliner motor"

I'm not so sure this is healthy either because it is obvious that the HG was a normulative experience for believers in the NT.

If the condemning to hell would leave and the promise stay, believers wouldn't feel so bad that they hadn't got it yet in the UPC. I think it just needs to be expressed differently so people can understand salvation is a process and just because you haven't spoken in tongues, does not mean you are not part of the body of Christ (as in baptism you unite with Christ). There is a reason though a high percentage of new converts claim the Holy Ghost baptism in the UPC. Its made imperative that is necessary and God wants everyone to have it. Threat of hell is not needed for this though in my opinion.

[Jermyn Davidson]

German, I am not sure I understand but then it has been a long day. For that matter a long year!

Do I understand correctly that you are currently attending a UPC church but are not happy with it and want to change? Or that you have already made a change to another church? If so what kind of church is it and what made you leave your UPC one? You mentioned not enough scheduled prayer and worship not boistrous enough for you but frankly those sound like lame excuses.

I was attending AN EXCELLENT UPCI church in the central Florida region and have since stopped for the last month or so.


I have been attending an Assembly of God church.

I left the EXCELLENT UPCI church because of doctrinal issues.


My criticisms of the church I have been attending recently are not lame excuses to me-- not in the least bit!

Prayer, Praise and Worship are three of the things that most Apostolic chruches get right!

It's the other junk that I can't bring somebody else into because I know where it will lead them-- I've seen it too often.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Sorry to hear you're going through that, Jermyn. Leaving can be really tough.

Yep. Tearfully tough.

[Jermyn Davidson]

JD,

I know that this was not a spur of the moment decision, but that you have been contemplative for a thousand years. Leaving your church family for another isn't easy. Sometimes you have to spread your wings and fly. I do support your reason to leave. I have been there. It's a leap of faith, and you feel alone at a time when you really need to be in good company. The Lord is with you, He has never abandoned you. He is watching over this situation. You are going to learn alot about yourself through this, and you are going to be amazed at the hand of God. I need you to do yourself a favor. When doubts begin to settle in, I need you to remind yourself of His promises to you. I am not sure if I told you about something that I was going through last yr. The only time I felt safety and assurance is when I was in the tangible presence of God. Any other time I was full of doubt and fear. Three times through this, men of God who I was barely aquainted with spoke words to me that were from the Lord and I was assured that God was in it. I know it's vague, but I do not wish to get into detail here. I love you, JD. Give me a call sometime on Saturday. M-F our schedules are in conflict.



You know me too well! :)

I will call you this weekend, but if not, feel free to call me.

Thanks for your prayers.

[onefaith2]

Yep. Tearfully tough.

maybe you should locate a Global church.. their stance is not quite as harsh. I am with not condeming people because of tongues but I can live in the UPC culture teaching that we all should receive this experience and God doesn't want any believe to not experience this. I leave the condemnation to God. Others however can't do this and have to leave. I wish some could find a medium.

[deltaguitar]

I was attending AN EXCELLENT UPCI church in the central Florida region and have since stopped for the last month or so.


I have been attending an Assembly of God church.

I left the EXCELLENT UPCI church because of doctrinal issues.


My criticisms of the church I have been attending recently are not lame excuses to me-- not in the least bit!

Prayer, Praise and Worship are three of the things that most Apostolic chruches get right!

It's the other junk that I can't bring somebody else into because I know where it will lead them-- I've seen it too often.

Leaving the pentecostal culture was the hardest thing for me.

These were the stages for me.
1) Longing, I missed the worship and the energy and people receiving the baptism often. It was like losing a part of me for a while. I missed being able to recongnize other apostolics and identifying with them in other towns like I had done my whole life.

2) Peace, I started to enjoy the sweetness of worship in silence and peace that was so wonderful. I started to realize that a lot of what I had loved before was not godly at all but it was my flesh that loved the music, excitement of seeing someone fall out in the spirit or speak in tongues, and the tension that the pentecostal worship service had. We still fellowshiped with some local AOG and COG folks but I realized that they didn't have the same peace that I was looking for. They were constantly looking for more power and the second blessing. They were more loving and offered friendship at a time when we had almost no one.

3) Admitting, I finally had to admit that I didn't get any value from the wild worship, falling out, hysterical altar calls, and hazing that new converts had to go through called the (baptism of the holy ghost). I admitted to myself that although I believed in speaking in tongues I had lied to myself and others for over 20 years that I had received this experience. This was the hardest step because I had lied to myself for so long. At this point there was nothing left of my old self. I also had to question why these groups craved this atmosphere so much. What flaw in their doctrine or personal issues would make them want to put people through all that? Were they even saved? Could people who were regenerated by the Holy Spirit have so many problems?

3) Anger, I then realized that I had been caught up in a system that had damaged me, my close friends, and my family spiritually. I was not so angry at the Pentecostals but I was angry at myself for allowing myself to get caught up in the frenzy of it all. I still deal with this to this day. But I wake up at night having dreams of being back in those situations and I cannot get away. I remember all the times as a child I was seeking the holy ghost and couldn't get it only to be told, just keep trying, yield your tongue, just block everything out, blah blah blah. I remember how people would gather around and hold our hands up and pray and pray for ever and the only way we could stop would be to just put our hands down and walk away. Every time one of our friends would decided to pray we would do the same thing, crowding around to help them pray through. Making enough noise to drowned out their stammering lips so they wouldn't feel awkward while seeking. Looking back it was complete torture and I pray I never allow my children to go through anything like this.

4) Total disconnect, I think this is where I am now. I have joined a semi-reformed church that doesn't have altar calls (the worship is amazing though), embrace the doctrine of the trinity, and only hang around people who know nothing about pentecostalism. I have almost no connection, other than my immediate family, to any apostolics. I have moved to a town where they do not have a stronghold although there are UPC churches in the area. I have the greatest peace. God is working through my pride and my hurt and pointing out my sin. Though I don't have "standards" to follow, I am more committed to Christ than ever and notice my sin and try to put it to death.

[deltaguitar]

I was attending AN EXCELLENT UPCI church in the central Florida region and have since stopped for the last month or so.


I have been attending an Assembly of God church.

I left the EXCELLENT UPCI church because of doctrinal issues.


My criticisms of the church I have been attending recently are not lame excuses to me-- not in the least bit!

Prayer, Praise and Worship are three of the things that most Apostolic chruches get right!

It's the other junk that I can't bring somebody else into because I know where it will lead them-- I've seen it too often.

Remember, many religious people have prayer, praise, and worship down but have no saving faith.

[aegsm76]

Amazing thread...
and a sad one.

[deltaguitar]

Amazing thread...
and a sad one.

Of course.

[NorCal]

Amazing thread...
and a sad one.

I agree. I find it very sad that the biblical stuff that the UPCI does preach is being mock, ridiculed, etc. When that is how ALL the Pentecostals (and non Pentecostals) did it 100 Years ago.

My Grandmother was raised Nazarene. As a little child she remembers the pastor getting up there and preaching Holiness Standards, and other things that the UPCI still holds on to. People have turned away from Holiness, unto self indulging pleasures. Very sad situation. However, I believe that the further that the Modern Day Church moves toward the world, the more power you will see in the Apostolic Movement (Not just the UPCI).

I will say that the UPCI may have its governmental system in a flawed state. But anything man made is going to be.

[Brad Murphy]

However, I believe that the further that the Modern Day Church moves toward the world, the more power you will see in the Apostolic Movement (Not just the UPCI).

That could win you $1,000,000 from the James Randi Foundation:

http://www.skepdic.com/randi.html

[RandyWayne]

I agree. I find it very sad that the biblical stuff that the UPCI does preach is being mock, ridiculed, etc. When that is how ALL the Pentecostals (and non Pentecostals) did it 100 Years ago.

My Grandmother was raised Nazarene. As a little child she remembers the pastor getting up there and preaching Holiness Standards, and other things that the UPCI still holds on to. People have turned away from Holiness, unto self indulging pleasures. Very sad situation. However, I believe that the further that the Modern Day Church moves toward the world, the more power you will see in the Apostolic Movement (Not just the UPCI).

I will say that the UPCI may have its governmental system in a flawed state. But anything man made is going to be.

I don't believe JD was complaining about holiness "standards".

[aegsm76]

No, JD is saying that the Acts 2 experience is not necessary for salvation.
I'm sure he will correct me if my assumption is wrong.

[Orthodoxy]

I admitted to myself that although I believed in speaking in tongues I had lied to myself and others for over 20 years that I had received this experience. This was the hardest step because I had lied to myself for so long. At this point there was nothing left of my old self.

Great post. But what do you mean that you had lied to yourself about the HG experience? Do you believe that you had "counterfeit tongues"?



But I wake up at night having dreams of being back in those situations and I cannot get away. I remember all the times as a child I was seeking the holy ghost and couldn't get it only to be told, just keep trying, yield your tongue, just block everything out, blah blah blah. I remember how people would gather around and hold our hands up and pray and pray for ever and the only way we could stop would be to just put our hands down and walk away. Every time one of our friends would decided to pray we would do the same thing, crowding around to help them pray through. Making enough noise to drowned out their stammering lips so they wouldn't feel awkward while seeking. Looking back it was complete torture and I pray I never allow my children to go through anything like this.



I can completely relate to this experience. Although I had been raised UPC, I never actually spoke in tongues until a later age (I was late teens). I was not rebellious; I had prayed/tarried/fasted for years for the HG. During my late childhood, early teen years, I had some humiliating experiences at the altar where people were trying to pray me through.

I was absolutely petrified of children/youth revival services, and would not wish my experiences on my worst enemy. Well-meaning people would usher me down to the altar (without asking my preferences) and begin to yell in my ear. I was an introvert, and this practice scared the daylights out of me; never was I in a spiritual mindset during those altar call moments. I was scared, and believed I was going to hell. An evangelist told me he was "hot on my trail."

The word "rapture" made me tremble because I didn't have the Holy Ghost, although I had wept and prayed my heart out over and over. I can't just sit back and say nothing about this. Unfortunately, my story is not unique.

None of this should be a bad reflection on my parents; they loved me and were not overly pressuring me about the HG. All of these experiences happened during camp meetings, youth revivals, and Bible Quiz rallies. Where was the cross in all of this? Why didn't my teachers tell me that Jesus had absorbed the Father's wrath and had given me His righteousness so that I didn't have to feel ashamed and guilty anymore? Where was the Gospel?

Do I love and value the gift of tongues? Absolutely. Do I believe that we should terrorize people into believing that that they are lost if they have never received tongues? No.

[Rose]

I was attending AN EXCELLENT UPCI church in the central Florida region and have since stopped for the last month or so.


I have been attending an Assembly of God church.

I left the EXCELLENT UPCI church because of doctrinal issues.



I am sorry that you are having a difficult time... but, I have a question. Do you agree with the all of the AOG church's doctrine?

Sometimes I wonder if we just trade one set of issues for another? I wish you God's direction and blessings.

[Praxeas]

I have friends that attend an AOG up in Northern Ca.

They left my church over standards. Eventually they moved up north and went to a local UPC. They talked with the pastor and she told him they left the other UPC over standards but were willing to obey the standards to attend his church.

The pastor refused them when he found out their position on standards so the attended an AOG.

The pastor knows her views on the Godhead and water baptism in Jesus name and is ok with her and her family. In fact they are very involved and she teaches classes.

[Rose]

Sometimes circumstances force us to make the best decisions for our family, even if they would not be our first choice.

It seems that JD's Pastor was willing to accept their diversity just as the AOG Pastor was willing to accept your friend's doctrinal beliefs. I am just concerned that that JD will face similar issues in most churches. Prayerfully, he will let the Holy Ghost guide him.

[berkeley]

JD is PCI. He will fit better with the AG.

[CC1]

Sheesh, CC1. Do ya have to say something about that all the time? You remind me of someone nagging a charismatic about wearing makeup, only one step removed. :girlytantrum

"All the time"?????? I challenge you to find where I have said anything in a long time. I continually restrain myself and just pray for you guys. It honestly breaks my heart for you guys to abandon church life because of your bad exrperience.

The Bible clearly talks about the value of assembling together and of pastors, teachers, etc. You are missing out on some things God put in place to help you get over the hurt you experienced.

I don't say any of this with anything but love and hope for you and your husband. I know you guys have a lot to offer the Kingdom of God.

[NotforSale]

Sheesh, CC1. Do ya have to say something about that all the time? You remind me of someone nagging a charismatic about wearing makeup, only one step removed. :girlytantrum

ILG, don't let CC1 get to you. Guilt trips only take us down. God can touch you wherever you are, and the Bible fully supports a man seeking God by the sea, on a mountain, or in a strange land.

:thumbsup

[canam]

ILG, don't let CC1 get to you. Guilt trips only take us down. God can touch you wherever you are, and the Bible fully supports a man seeking God by the sea, on a mountain, or in a strange land.

:thumbsup

:thumbsup Which is the only reason anybody in Cali has even a remote chance !:)

[UnTraditional]

ILG, don't let CC1 get to you. Guilt trips only take us down. God can touch you wherever you are, and the Bible fully supports a man seeking God by the sea, on a mountain, or in a strange land.

:thumbsup

And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
(Hebrews 10:24-25 NKJV)

God has commanded us to be assembled with other believers. Those who refuse are doing so for no good reason, IMHO. A Christian without church fellowship is doomed to fail.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Sometimes circumstances force us to make the best decisions for our family, even if they would not be our first choice.

It seems that JD's Pastor was willing to accept their diversity just as the AOG Pastor was willing to accept your friend's doctrinal beliefs. I am just concerned that that JD will face similar issues in most churches. Prayerfully, he will let the Holy Ghost guide him.

My Pastor would, yes.

Still it becomes problematic for people who are inspired to serve the Lord in greater capacities when they have not conformed to the 3-step and all the other extra stuff that comes after that (and my Pastor has never been a clothesline holiness preacher-- like so many others.)

Problematic in our church, IMPOSSIBLE in just about every other Apostolic church I have ever attended (except the one in Okinawa, Japan.)

[Jermyn Davidson]

Will you convert to Trinitarianism because they do not have the expectation of every to speak in tongues?

If being a Trintarian means firmly believing that the Son is NOT the Father, then I am probably almost there in your book.


Acts 2:38 is two commands and a promise. THE AOG while embracing the promise of the HG as a priviledge to every believer, does not emphasive their converts to earnestly seek for it.

A Promise and not a command is EXACTLY how I see it. Apostolics add to the Bible when we present the infilling of the Holy Ghost in any other light.




The General Superintendent or overseer says this about the baptism of the HG "Why would you want a 4 cylinder when you can have a 6 cynliner motor"

I'm not so sure this is healthy either because it is obvious that the HG was a normulative experience for believers in the NT.

If the condemning to hell would leave and the promise stay, believers wouldn't feel so bad that they hadn't got it yet in the UPC. I think it just needs to be expressed differently so people can understand salvation is a process and just because you haven't spoken in tongues, does not mean you are not part of the body of Christ (as in baptism you unite with Christ). There is a reason though a high percentage of new converts claim the Holy Ghost baptism in the UPC. Its made imperative that is necessary and God wants everyone to have it. Threat of hell is not needed for this though in my opinion.



I've held out as long as I have been willing to, hoping for that change.

For the sake of honesty it is just better for me to pitch my tent with Christians that I agree with on such a crucial issue.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I don't believe JD was complaining about holiness "standards".

No I wasn't, but it comes part and parcel with the Apostolic experience.

In a way, it is easier to teach outside standards than to encourage inside change.


The Bible teaches modesty, not "standards".

[Brad Murphy]

"All the time"?????? I challenge you to find where I have said anything in a long time. I continually restrain myself and just pray for you guys. It honestly breaks my heart for you guys to abandon church life because of your bad exrperience.

The Bible clearly talks about the value of assembling together and of pastors, teachers, etc. You are missing out on some things God put in place to help you get over the hurt you experienced.

I don't say any of this with anything but love and hope for you and your husband. I know you guys have a lot to offer the Kingdom of God.

I can honestly say that I do not need a pastor, or a church of any sort... there is nothing that either a pastor or church can provide for me that I cannot find for myself. When I listen to phone calls of people that for some reason have to talk to my dad (a pastor) almost daily, or even several times a day, it intrigues me more than anything else. I just can't imagine how their lives must be if they feel they cannot make any decision, or go through any sort of emotions without calling the pastor or pastor's wife to discuss them. At 39 years old and about to turn 40, I can't think of a single thing that has happened in my life that a church or pastor would have been able to help me with, and I am being completely honest. I will say that other churches and pastors frequently help my mom and dad since they choose to live "on faith" and regularly find that the ends don't meet when you live on faith, but they don't see it that way. They live life in such a way that even if they can't pay their rent, or their utilities, as long as they had a can of beans for supper, then God provided (even if it took someone who DIDN'T live on faith to provide the can of beans...)

At the same time, I do try to nurture my relationships with my friends and certain family members that have a life outside of church. I believe that being around other people that care is rewarding to all parties involved in the relationship, but there are many places you can find that outside of church. I see no reason to subject myself to church, a pastor, or even religion of any sort. I don't need anything that they are selling... and feel free to call me selfish, but I DO practice giving to charity and volunteering my time as well, and I also don't live in the gutter (like is predicted of anyone who "backslides").

[Hoovie]

Jesus, the only begotten Son of God was divine and God almighty. It does not necessarily follow that he was the Father in heaven as well. The Father, by definition is God beyond the incarnation while the Son is/was God in and through the incarnation.

[deltaguitar]

Great post. But what do you mean that you had lied to yourself about the HG experience? Do you believe that you had "counterfeit tongues"?



I can completely relate to this experience. Although I had been raised UPC, I never actually spoke in tongues until a later age (I was late teens). I was not rebellious; I had prayed/tarried/fasted for years for the HG. During my late childhood, early teen years, I had some humiliating experiences at the altar where people were trying to pray me through.

I was absolutely petrified of children/youth revival services, and would not wish my experiences on my worst enemy. Well-meaning people would usher me down to the altar (without asking my preferences) and begin to yell in my ear. I was an introvert, and this practice scared the daylights out of me; never was I in a spiritual mindset during those altar call moments. I was scared, and believed I was going to hell. An evangelist told me he was "hot on my trail."

The word "rapture" made me tremble because I didn't have the Holy Ghost, although I had wept and prayed my heart out over and over. I can't just sit back and say nothing about this. Unfortunately, my story is not unique.

None of this should be a bad reflection on my parents; they loved me and were not overly pressuring me about the HG. All of these experiences happened during camp meetings, youth revivals, and Bible Quiz rallies. Where was the cross in all of this? Why didn't my teachers tell me that Jesus had absorbed the Father's wrath and had given me His righteousness so that I didn't have to feel ashamed and guilty anymore? Where was the Gospel?

Do I love and value the gift of tongues? Absolutely. Do I believe that we should terrorize people into believing that that they are lost if they have never received tongues? No.

Your experience sounds very close to mine. I was very self conscious and many times at the altar was just trying to please the people around me. I too fasted and prayed and didn't want to go to Hell. I guess, deep down, as a young child, I knew that the baptism experience wasn't real because I figured that as long as I convinced myself and others I was saved. Deep down I knew I wasn't saved though. It would take another twenty years before I would be born again after leaving the UPC.

Lets be real, who can really tell if someone is speaking in tongues or not. I have heard many big time preachers in the UPC speak in tongues over the mic and it didn't sound spirit led at all. It just sounded like the same phrases that we hear everybody do. In other denominations they have a different tone or phrase that is consistantly repeated. This just shows me that a lot of it is just learned behavior.

I do not feel like I had false tongues. I just didn't speak in tongues at all. I got excited and wanted it so bad that I just said, jesus jesus, jesus so fast that it probably sounded like tongues. The culture was such that once I told folks I had it there was a collective sign of relief. A couple of other times in my life I was kind of forced into a situation where I had to react or either look like a cold hearted backslider.

Once, our church was having a great "revival". Because I played the guitar I was basically exempt from the altar call and the whole frenzy. Well, there was a young man in our church who was going to JCM and figured he could pray anyone through. The service got heated and he pranced around laying hands on anyone who could be blessed with his anointing. Well, there had been talk that if they could ever get those cold hearted musicians to respond then that just might be the key to revival. (there had been many prophecies and messages in tongues given that a huge revival would take place and fill the building up). So he issued the challenge in front of the whole church, he walked over and waved me down to the altar, well of course I knew I was lost as ever and I wanted to get back to God. The only way I knew that could happen was to pray back through. I calmly put my guitar down and walked over and the music got louder, people started clapping and crying and surrounding me and I just knew it was my chance to get back right with God. A typical praying through altar call started, the young preacher slapped his hand on my head and bent my head back. They had me and were not about to let me go until I prayed through.

I never spoke in tongues at that time. I cried and bawled my eyes out and looked emotional enough that I still have people tell me to this day that they know I spoke in tongues and got the Holy Ghost. I didn't. I knew I didn't. I was just as empty after that as I had ever been. It would still be six or seven years later before I could admit that I still had never spoken in tongues.

I cringe at the thought of ever being in that situation again. I wake up having nightmares about those altar calls. I start to get angry when I think about how stupid I was to allow those people to manipulate me for so long. I don't hate my heritage because I know God allows things to happen for a reason.

[onefaith2]

If being a Trintarian means firmly believing that the Son is NOT the Father, then I am probably almost there in your book.
.

No you are where I am in my book. I firmly believe the form of the Son and the Father are distinct. I just hope you don't go to where you see God as an US eternally when He said I am alone and there is no God beside me (that was the Father, WOrd, and Spirit speaking, else the other two aren't God)


A Promise and not a command is EXACTLY how I see it. Apostolics add to the Bible when we present the infilling of the Holy Ghost in any other light.
.

They don't add to the Bible, they interpret the birth of the Spirit to be the infilling of the HG. The phrase "so is everyone that is born of the Spirit" (sound of wind Acts 2:1) gets the church on this. How I read it is.. so is everyone that is born of the Spirit, NOT so is everyone WHEN they are born of the Spirit. THere is a difference. THe UPC emphasizes that every believer should experience the HG baptism and that is the Bible. Anyone that doesn't preach this is not adding to, but taking away in my opinion. It just WHEN someone is baptized with the HG that is in argument. Acts 8 and Acts 19 clearly show me it doesn't always happen at belief and baptism. That Jermyn is what we have to go on, the Bible. The AOG have backed away from the exhortation to receive this gift in a lot of their assemblies but not all. So if you are going there, try to get them to see the importance of exhortance every believer, while embracing them as "being" saved.

Also try to show them the name of Jesus is not a bad thing to call on in baptism. A lot of their pastors baptize either way or both ways and thats a plus in my book!





I've held out as long as I have been willing to, hoping for that change.

For the sake of honesty it is just better for me to pitch my tent with Christians that I agree with on such a crucial issue.

Honesty? If you preach the Bible and fellowship with those who you may disagree with, thats dishonest? Honestly you are not going to agree with the AOG either on some things. A know salvation is a crucial issue but understand that no one has "made" heaven their home yet. Salvation is not just an event and that has done more damage to Christianity than any other doctrine in my opinion. When a person says, I've got it all; and just trusts on their experiences, vs., the abiding presence of Christ to lead them; any church gets in danger whether its Apostolic, Baptist, Methodist, etc.

I'm just letting you know those of us who leave condemnation to God and believe the HG baptism as for everyone and a promise can coexist and agree to disagree on "when" someone is forgiven of sins, etc. as long as we continue to pursue all that God has for us. Thats why I continue my lot with the Oneness truth and fellowship with the UPC. We believe the baptism has salvational importance and so it does. We are going to need everything we can get from the Lord Jesus to take care of this flesh and walk in the overcoming power of the Lord.

[onefaith2]

I cringe at the thought of ever being in that situation again. I wake up having nightmares about those altar calls. I start to get angry when I think about how stupid I was to allow those people to manipulate me for so long. I don't hate my heritage because I know God allows things to happen for a reason.

I've been on both sides of the fence and I know of a certainly the baptism of the HG did something to enhance my relationship with Jesus. So do MANY others who came out of denominal churches. You can't compare your experience to everyone acrossed the board. THe HG baptism made me on fire for Jesus like nothing else did. It wasn't false or hocus pocus.

[onefaith2]

Jesus, the only begotten Son of God was divine and God almighty. It does not necessarily follow that he was the Father in heaven as well. The Father, by definition is God beyond the incarnation while the Son is/was God in and through the incarnation.

Actually Jehovah was the father in Heaven and the Son on the earth at the same time. THe Son is not the Father in form, but in transcendance God is all three. Just each of the forms have a distinct personality that we see. That is the beauty of the incarnation that God can be three and yet be the I AM while he is this three at the same time! What an amazing revelation of the One God.

[deltaguitar]

I've been on both sides of the fence and I know of a certainly the baptism of the HG did something to enhance my relationship with Jesus. So do MANY others who came out of denominal churches. You can't compare your experience to everyone acrossed the board. THe HG baptism made me on fire for Jesus like nothing else did. It wasn't false or hocus pocus.

True but we don't know that it was the speaking in tongues or maybe just the first time you truly committed yourself to Christ. God will meet us where we are. If we think we need to have that experience or something like that he will allow it to happen. I just don't like the idea of hazing new converts.

Also, we are commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit and to seek after God with all our hearts. That is a good thing. Why can't we just keep tongues separate? If we really believe that God has control and the Holy Spirit moves where it wills then we should back off and stop trying to force it.

[mfblume]

Jesus, the only begotten Son of God was divine and God almighty. It does not necessarily follow that he was the Father in heaven as well. The Father, by definition is God beyond the incarnation while the Son is/was God in and through the incarnation.

Right! :thumbsup

[deltaguitar]

Actually Jehovah was the father in Heaven and the Son on the earth at the same time. THe Son is not the Father in form, but in transcendance God is all three. Just each of the forms have a distinct personality that we see. That is the beauty of the incarnation that God can be three and yet be the I AM while he is this three at the same time! What an amazing revelation of the One God.

How is this not trinitarian doctrine? The whole concept of the trinity is that there is relationship within the godhead.

[Timmy]

I can honestly say that I do not need a pastor, or a church of any sort... there is nothing that either a pastor or church can provide for me that I cannot find for myself. When I listen to phone calls of people that for some reason have to talk to my dad (a pastor) almost daily, or even several times a day, it intrigues me more than anything else. I just can't imagine how their lives must be if they feel they cannot make any decision, or go through any sort of emotions without calling the pastor or pastor's wife to discuss them. At 39 years old and about to turn 40, I can't think of a single thing that has happened in my life that a church or pastor would have been able to help me with, and I am being completely honest. I will say that other churches and pastors frequently help my mom and dad since they choose to live "on faith" and regularly find that the ends don't meet when you live on faith, but they don't see it that way. They live life in such a way that even if they can't pay their rent, or their utilities, as long as they had a can of beans for supper, then God provided (even if it took someone who DIDN'T live on faith to provide the can of beans...)

At the same time, I do try to nurture my relationships with my friends and certain family members that have a life outside of church. I believe that being around other people that care is rewarding to all parties involved in the relationship, but there are many places you can find that outside of church. I see no reason to subject myself to church, a pastor, or even religion of any sort. I don't need anything that they are selling... and feel free to call me selfish, but I DO practice giving to charity and volunteering my time as well, and I also don't live in the gutter (like is predicted of anyone who "backslides").

And that is why http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=35072. ;)

[onefaith2]

True but we don't know that it was the speaking in tongues or maybe just the first time you truly committed yourself to Christ. God will meet us where we are. If we think we need to have that experience or something like that he will allow it to happen. I just don't like the idea of hazing new converts.

Also, we are commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit and to seek after God with all our hearts. That is a good thing. Why can't we just keep tongues separate? If we really believe that God has control and the Holy Spirit moves where it wills then we should back off and stop trying to force it.

Th reason we can't keep tongues separate is that tongues came with the baptism each time a sign is listed. The idea is that we want to experience the same thing they did in the book of Acts. When they got it they spoke in tongues and Joel prophecied about this experience that it would be poured out upon all flesh. Peter said the tongues and Spirit filling was that which was spoken by Joel.

That is why tongues aren't kept separate in my opinion. We just need to speak where the Bible speaks and be silent otherwise. Thats my motto.

[onefaith2]

How is this not trinitarian doctrine? The whole concept of the trinity is that there is relationship within the godhead.

Trinitarian Doctrine says Jehovah is eternally three persons, Father, SOn and SPirit. We don't see the personality of the Son until the incarnation, therefore before the incarnation God was Father, Word, and SPirit and those three spoke as a single personality, I AM alone. That is why its different than trinity.

Trinitarians that use argument like ice, water, and vapor OR yolk, egg, and shell are actually more oneness than Trinity.

It is important to note that the Catholic trinity has a Single Divine mind and will. They are much closer to oneness than typical evangelical views of the Trinity.

[onefaith2]

Once, our church was having a great "revival". Because I played the guitar I was basically exempt from the altar call and the whole frenzy. Well, there was a young man in our church who was going to JCM and figured he could pray anyone through. The service got heated and he pranced around laying hands on anyone who could be blessed with his anointing. Well, there had been talk that if they could ever get those cold hearted musicians to respond then that just might be the key to revival. (there had been many prophecies and messages in tongues given that a huge revival would take place and fill the building up). So he issued the challenge in front of the whole church, he walked over and waved me down to the altar, well of course I knew I was lost as ever and I wanted to get back to God. The only way I knew that could happen was to pray back through. I calmly put my guitar down and walked over and the music got louder, people started clapping and crying and surrounding me and I just knew it was my chance to get back right with God. A typical praying through altar call started, the young preacher slapped his hand on my head and bent my head back. They had me and were not about to let me go until I prayed through.

.

At what time period did you know this guy from JCM (year?) I was Student Body president at one time there.

[deltaguitar]

At what time period did you know this guy from JCM (year?) I was Student Body president at one time there.

Maybe I shouldn't say. Ok, why not. Probably between 2000 and 2003.

[onefaith2]

Maybe I shouldn't say. Ok, why not. Probably between 2000 and 2003.

Then I knew that person! LOL Those are my exact years there.

[Cindy]

Oh my heart hurts for you, Jermyn. I know you have been searching for so long. A relationship with men cannot replace our relationship with God. However, assembling together and under the care of a true shepherd, we grow in our faith.

I will pray that you find your place in the body of Christ. And that God will provide assurance as you seek His face.

[deltaguitar]

Trinitarian Doctrine says Jehovah is eternally three persons, Father, SOn and SPirit. We don't see the personality of the Son until the incarnation, therefore before the incarnation God was Father, Word, and SPirit and those three spoke as a single personality, I AM alone. That is why its different than trinity.

Trinitarians that use argument like ice, water, and vapor OR yolk, egg, and shell are actually more oneness than Trinity.

It is important to note that the Catholic trinity has a Single Divine mind and will. They are much closer to oneness than typical evangelical views of the Trinity.

Ok, I see your difference then. I believe that the son existed prior to the incarnation.

The ice, water, and vapor is actually modalism.

I think that I would agree that God has a single divine mind and will yet within himself there is relationship and roles and submission to those roles.

[deltaguitar]

Then I knew that person! LOL Those are my exact years there.

Maybe you ARE that person?

[onefaith2]

Ok, I see your difference then. I believe that the son existed prior to the incarnation.

The ice, water, and vapor is actually modalism.

I think that I would agree that God has a single divine mind and will yet within himself there is relationship and roles and submission to those roles.

I believe He existed before too, as the Word.

John 1:1

1 John 5:7

My beliefs closely match those of Bishop Iraneaus. That the Word and SPirit are the "hands" of God.

Yeh but the ice water vapor is one many trinitarians describe the Trinity. They aren't trinitarian in my book.

Notice you said within "himself" Even you can understand that all the fullness of God is a Himself. Does that mean that you also believe the father, Son, and HG have a singular personality aside from being distinct persons in the Godhead? If so you aren't far from oneness either.

[deltaguitar]

Th reason we can't keep tongues separate is that tongues came with the baptism each time a sign is listed. The idea is that we want to experience the same thing they did in the book of Acts. When they got it they spoke in tongues and Joel prophecied about this experience that it would be poured out upon all flesh. Peter said the tongues and Spirit filling was that which was spoken by Joel.

That is why tongues aren't kept separate in my opinion. We just need to speak where the Bible speaks and be silent otherwise. Thats my motto.

I would disagree with you that each time someone received the Holy Spirit they spoke in tongues. But I doubt I will ever convince you. :thumbsup

[onefaith2]

Maybe you ARE that person?

No I didn't go around believing I could pray through everyone. I am careful about that stuff.

[onefaith2]

I would disagree with you that each time someone received the Holy Spirit they spoke in tongues. But I doubt I will ever convince you. :thumbsup

name one where it says they did not?

Its not there.. trust me.. I've searched. Unless there are portions I am not reading.

Acts 8 is the only one that doesn't mention it and it doesn't mention anything. That is a weak argument to say they didn't speak in tongues. Did you have another in mind that you could bring to my attention? I am referring to post Pentecost; not what mary or elizabeth or John the Baptist got. Those were not called the baptism of the HG.

[deltaguitar]

I believe He existed before too, as the Word.

John 1:1

1 John 5:7

My beliefs closely match those of Bishop Iraneaus. That the Word and SPirit are the "hands" of God.

Yeh but the ice water vapor is one many trinitarians describe the Trinity. They aren't trinitarian in my book.

Notice you said within "himself" Even you can understand that all the fullness of God is a Himself. Does that mean that you also believe the father, Son, and HG have a singular personality aside from being distinct persons in the Godhead? If so you aren't far from oneness either.

Ha ha. If you said that the singular personality is the attributes of God then I might agree.

What solidifies me into trinitarian thinking is that the Father sent the son, that the Father gave to the son a bride, that Jesus said that he was there at creation, that the Father and the Son would send the Holy Spirit, etc.

It is hard to try to explain God. To me the Oneness position leaves out so much of the redemption plan. I do not believe that oneness people are serving another God like some do.

[onefaith2]

Ha ha. If you said that the singular personality is the attributes of God then I might agree.

What solidifies me into trinitarian thinking is that the Father sent the son, that the Father gave to the son a bride, that Jesus said that he was there at creation, that the Father and the Son would send the Holy Spirit, etc.

It is hard to try to explain God. To me the Oneness position leaves out so much of the redemption plan. I do not believe that oneness people are serving another God like some do.

Oneness doesn't disagree that the Father sent the Son, etc. What they disagree with is that One divine person sent another divine Person. Rather they believe that God the father Sent his Son (which was his Word made flesh) Not another person but part of his being, the Word of the Father. THe SOn became distinct and functioned as someone else when he became a man. We really don't see this until the NT. That is what solidifies me on the oneness position. I ask myself what changed between the OT and the NT that God starting talking like an US most of the time. The incarnation is the only difference. SOmething happened in the incarnation to cause a God who is singular in personality as Father, Word, and SPirit to become Father, Son, and Spirit and have a relationship within those roles.

I clearly recognize the distinction between Father and Son. Thats why I am so adamant for folks not to go around saying the Father is the Son, but rather the Father is in the Son and vise versa. Biblical terminology in my opinion is really the only way God meant for us to describe Him. Everything else is theory and has caused much division in Christendom.

[deltaguitar]

name one where it says they did not?

Its not there.. trust me.. I've searched. Unless there are portions I am not reading.

Acts 8 is the only one that doesn't mention it and it doesn't mention anything. That is a weak argument to say they didn't speak in tongues. Did you have another in mind that you could bring to my attention? I am referring to post Pentecost; not what mary or elizabeth or John the Baptist got. Those were not called the baptism of the HG.

I have had this settled in my mind for a few years now so it is not something I think about.

Remember, Acts spans a period of time and I think there are three or four instances of people receiving the Holy Spirit. I think only one place actually mentions tongues exclusively. You have tongues of fire in Acts 2, and prophesying in another instance along with receiving but it makes me question why we don't have prophesying or fire as an initial evidence as well as tongues.

We just have to read so much into scripture and then tongues is not mentioned at all anywhere in the rest of the bible as evidence of salvation.

[deltaguitar]

Oneness doesn't disagree that the Father sent the Son, etc. What they disagree with is that One divine person sent another divine Person. Rather they believe that God the father Sent his Son (which was his Word made flesh) Not another person but part of his being, the Word of the Father. THe SOn became distinct and functioned as someone else when he became a man. We really don't see this until the NT. That is what solidifies me on the oneness position. I ask myself what changed between the OT and the NT that God starting talking like an US most of the time. The incarnation is the only difference. SOmething happened in the incarnation to cause a God who is singular in personality as Father, Word, and SPirit to become Father, Son, and Spirit and have a relationship within those roles.

I clearly recognize the distinction between Father and Son. Thats why I am so adamant for folks not to go around saying the Father is the Son, but rather the Father is in the Son and vise versa. Biblical terminology in my opinion is really the only way God meant for us to describe Him. Everything else is theory and has caused much division in Christendom.

Father, son, and spirit are the same being. The concept of God is very difficult and there has been much error about the trinity taught and has led to many misconceptions.

This is from an article by John Piper that has helped me understand:

Within God's one, undivided being is an "unfolding" into three personal distinctions. These personal distinctions are modes of existence within the divine being, but are not divisions of the divine being. They are personal forms of existence other than a difference in being. The late theologian Herman Bavinck has stated something very helpful at this point: "The persons are modes of existence within the being; accordingly, the Persons differ among themselves as the one mode of existence differs from the other, and-using a common illustration-as the open palm differs from a closed fist."[4]

Because each of these "forms of existence" are relational (and thus are Persons), they are each a distinct center of consciousness, with each center of consciousness regarding Himself as "I" and the others as "You." Nonetheless, these three Persons all "consist of" the same "stuff" (that is, the same "what," or essence). As theologian and apologist Norman Geisler has explained it, while essence is what you are, person is who you are. So God is one "what" but three "whos.

http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/articles/what-is-the-doctrine-of-the-trinity

[onefaith2]

I have had this settled in my mind for a few years now so it is not something I think about.
.

Its something I think about quite often and not just that its necessary either. Pentecostals need to be so versed in the scripture and also open to other explanations that challenge their own because we need to know WHY we believe what we believe, not just because Pastor says so. Or thats what I've always been taught. Denominal folks are so guilty of this too. It is what my mother or grandmother always believed and thats a trap. Everyone has got to search for themselves in my opinion, even those who grew up in church. Make sure what you are being taught lines up I would say. There is too much false doctrine that is going under the radar that organizations don't pick up until its a big issue. (For instance the divine flesh doctrine of OPism that crept up.)


Remember, Acts spans a period of time and I think there are three or four instances of people receiving the Holy Spirit. I think only one place actually mentions tongues exclusively. You have tongues of fire in Acts 2, and prophesying in another instance along with receiving but it makes me question why we don't have prophesying or fire as an initial evidence as well as tongues.
.

There are four instances where it is mentioned. Acts 2, Acts 8, Acts 10, and Acts 19.

Of the four, three mentioned tongues and something else. Acts 2 is prophecy, Acts 10 is magnifying God, Acts 19 is prophecy. Prophecy is magnifying God in a language that people can understand, whether its convicting a heart or stepping into the office of a prophet and foretelling. The Spirit of prophecy is that Jesus is come in the flesh according to John. I would say the fire that didin't physically appear per say is the description of the zeal and exuberance of the experience called the HG baptism. I have witnessed very few where people were filled with the HG and spoke in tongues that they did not magnify God also. I have witness once or twice where one began to prophecy afterwards. I even witness an american Louisianna boy speak in an African native tongue and the African student wrong down what they said. It was magnifying God.



We just have to read so much into scripture and then tongues is not mentioned at all anywhere in the rest of the bible as evidence of salvation.

I would accompany the baptism of the HG as things that accompany salvation, not just the evidence thereof. Again I'm a little different on the subject.

[onefaith2]

Father, son, and spirit are the same being. The concept of God is very difficult and there has been much error about the trinity taught and has led to many misconceptions.

This is from an article by John Piper that has helped me understand:

Within God's one, undivided being is an "unfolding" into three personal distinctions. These personal distinctions are modes of existence within the divine being, but are not divisions of the divine being. They are personal forms of existence other than a difference in being. The late theologian Herman Bavinck has stated something very helpful at this point: "The persons are modes of existence within the being; accordingly, the Persons differ among themselves as the one mode of existence differs from the other, and-using a common illustration-as the open palm differs from a closed fist."[4]



This is very close to how I believe and classic modalistic principles of eternal forms of God. Modalism isn't just sequenial (meaing the Father changed to the Son, etc.) Modalism also can believe God has existed in these three forms of existence from the beginning. Hence 1 John 5:7 (Father, Word, Spirit)


Because each of these "forms of existence" are relational (and thus are Persons), they are each a distinct center of consciousness, with each center of consciousness regarding Himself as "I" and the others as "You." Nonetheless, these three Persons all "consist of" the same "stuff" (that is, the same "what," or essence). As theologian and apologist Norman Geisler has explained it, while essence is what you are, person is who you are. So God is one "what" but three "whos.



The problem I have with the second paragraph are as follows. While the three forms are relational to one another and exhibit a distinct center of consciousness (howbeit the SPirit's distinct center is quite debatable) God revealed Himself as the I AM that I AM, not We are that We are. While God is certainly plural, especially with these forms; these forms also speak as a singular personality. Saying that I am alone and there is no Saviour beside me. The singularity of God's being emcompasses then the distinct forms. That is why JEsus can say before Abraham was, I AM and that He was with the Father in the beginning (John 1:1). Jesus and the father and the Spirit form the I AM of the Bible. Since God revealed Himself first as a single personality, we must also view Him in light of the NT as such also. Therefor the persons, while distinct, are swallowed up in the fullness of God as the I AM, not the We are.

[deltaguitar]

Onefaith,

You are so close to trinitarian doctrine. Why not just take the step? Why divide against the rest of Christianity on this issue?

[onefaith2]

Onefaith,

You are so close to trinitarian doctrine. Why not just take the step? Why divide against the rest of Christianity on this issue?

I'm not dividing anything. The division came from the Council of Nicea that you have to view Father and Son as distinct persons within the Godhead. They are the ones who excommunicated the followers of Sabellius and Arius and deemed them heretics and lost.

Besides The three are really one person, else God would have said We are that We are, not I AM THAT I AM. I can't compromise the singular personality of God just because I recognize there are also distinctions within Him.

Why don't the Trinitarians and ONeness stop calling each other Heretics? Do you honestly think its one side?

[deltaguitar]

I'm not dividing anything. The division came from the Council of Nicea that you have to view Father and Son as distinct persons within the Godhead. They are the ones who excommunicated the followers of Sabellius and Arius and deemed them heretics and lost.

Besides The three are really one person, else God would have said We are that We are, not I AM THAT I AM. I can't compromise the singular personality of God just because I recognize there are also distinctions within Him.

Why don't the Trinitarians and ONeness stop calling each other Heretics? Do you honestly think its one side?

No. Oneness Pentecostals are labeled heretics by mainstream Christianity. I understand this. It was settled 1700 years ago. If oneness Pentecostals do not want to be viewed this way then it might be up to them to initiate dialogue with the churches.

The council of Nicaea, the way I understand it, claimed the Son as eternal. The issue of separate persons was not the issue but if Jesus was of the same stature as the Father and of the same substance.

[onefaith2]

No. Oneness Pentecostals are labeled heretics by mainstream Christianity. I understand this. It was settled 1700 years ago. If oneness Pentecostals do not want to be viewed this way then it might be up to them to initiate dialogue with the churches.

The council of Nicaea, the way I understand it, claimed the Son as eternal. The issue of separate persons was not the issue but if Jesus was of the same stature as the Father and of the same substance.

Actually both Jesus' eternality (which oneness embraces) and his person eternal was up for grabs. Nicea was held, not against oneness, but against Arianism which believe that Jesus was a created being by God and not God himself. I would agree with Nicea's choice of eternality with Jesus but not that they had to be distinct persons from eternity. God doesn't show me that self revelation in the OT. HE shows a singular personality self revelation.

Dialogue has been opened but the claim of heresy has not been removed (from either side's point of view)


The Christological arguments were in the next Century where the first church split happened. The CHurch of the East still exists today as they took Nestorian's side of the argument. Yet another split happened when the filoque was added to the dogma, where the HG is proceeding from both Father and SOn. THe church that rejected this split because they tend to see a hierchy within God and that the HG comes only from the Father. The Trinitarian issue has not been fully resolved, ever. You got people believing God is a group to people believing God has three heads and one body.

Its far from agreed upon.

[onefaith2]

Sorry for the Hijack Jermyn.

[NotforSale]

And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
(Hebrews 10:24-25 NKJV)

God has commanded us to be assembled with other believers. Those who refuse are doing so for no good reason, IMHO. A Christian without church fellowship is doomed to fail.

Balance must be sought when using Scripture to define whether a man needs to go to Church (as we define Church). Jesus never supported the commands you're talking about. When the Lord walked this Earth, He spoke from a ship, a hillside, and in the houses of people. Jesus also avoided those of Organized Faith, and his visit to the Temple was to overthrow tables.

Becoming a Christian is a journey, and this journey can include time away from Organized Religion.

Also, consider those who explored the World. When people came to America, many lived in remote parts of this Country and Faith was a very personal experience. The only real spiritual authority might be a man, raising his family in a primitive place, where travel was limited.

Organized Faith can drain a man of his or her personal experience, and the Relationship that God intended for us can suffer and dry up in the fixed environment of a Denomination that puts God in their Box.

[onefaith2]

Balance must be sought when using Scripture to define whether a man needs to go to Church (as we define Church). Jesus never supported the commands you're talking about. When the Lord walked this Earth, He spoke from a ship, a hillside, and in the houses of people. Jesus also avoided those of Organized Faith, and his visit to the Temple was to overthrow tables.

Becoming a Christian is a journey, and this journey can include time away from Organized Religion.

Also, consider those who explored the World. When people came to America, many lived in remote parts of this Country and Faith was a very personal experience. The only real spiritual authority might be a man, raising his family in a primitive place, where travel was limited.

Organized Faith can drain a man of his or her personal experience, and the Relationship that God intended for us can suffer and dry up in the fixed environment of a Denomination that puts God in their Box.

God never wanted any part of his body to be ostracized or alone. They met in houses, on hills, by rivers, and even in Jewish temples. They were always together, even Paul always had companions. This is the apostolic way to walk with other believers, in some form or fashion.

[NotforSale]

God never wanted any part of his body to be ostracized or alone. They met in houses, on hills, by rivers, and even in Jewish temples. They were always together, even Paul always had companions. This is the apostolic way to walk with other believers, in some form or fashion.

I agree and disagree;

Sometimes the only fellowship and real Spiritual support a man had was his Family; the Original Church.

Sometimes being alone is absolutely necessary for a man to regain his focus and bearing. Jesus, Moses, Elijah, Jacob, and many others spent time alone and the blessing of God was with them.

[onefaith2]

I agree and disagree;

Sometimes the only fellowship and real Spiritual support a man had was his Family; the Original Church.

Sometimes being alone is absolutely necessary for a man to regain his focus and bearing. Jesus, Moses, Elijah, Jacob, and many others spent time alone and the blessing of God was with them.

Paul spent some time alone after he spent time with the church and the apostles. I don't find "alone" time being the practice of the early church outside a few. They met house to house and brake bread, sold lands, and distrubuted to each other. They were a community in the purest sense.

[NotforSale]

Paul spent some time alone after he spent time with the church and the apostles. I don't find "alone" time being the practice of the early church outside a few. They met house to house and brake bread, sold lands, and distrubuted to each other. They were a community in the purest sense.

I don't feel it's accurate to assume what people did 2000 years ago, simply because the Bible doesn't point out all of the details. We do know for sure, traveling was very difficult and there were many other obstacles preventing people from getting together like we do in America today.

For instance, we have people who live 40 miles from our Church. If they had to walk, use a boat, or ride a horse, we might not see them very much. My previous pastor told us they would see the Evangelist every few months, and other than that, Church was in the home by the parents. This primitive form of Spiritual upbringing has been lost with a Church on every corner.

To be quite frank, I think people spend too much time together. I've been pastoring for 15 years, and we've churched people to death, and they still backslide more than they ever have (since I've been a Christian).

I personally feel that people need to learn to stand on their own two feet. They need to love God whether there is a Church or isn't a Church. They need to shout when there is no music, no emotion, and no people. It's almost like we've created a co-dependent environment, where the fear of no Church means the end of a solid Relationship with God.

Even as a pastor, I absolutely love my time in the woods or on a mountain where I can soak in what God made, not man. And whether we like it or not, our Church model is fabricated from ideas of flesh (Music, sound systems, buildings, screaming and yelling, peer pressure). Don’t get me wrong, I feel Church is important, but I believe we’ve fallen short by not teaching people about the importance of spending some time in the Wilderness.

[CC1]

I can honestly say that I do not need a pastor, or a church of any sort... there is nothing that either a pastor or church can provide for me that I cannot find for myself. When I listen to phone calls of people that for some reason have to talk to my dad (a pastor) almost daily, or even several times a day, it intrigues me more than anything else. I just can't imagine how their lives must be if they feel they cannot make any decision, or go through any sort of emotions without calling the pastor or pastor's wife to discuss them. At 39 years old and about to turn 40, I can't think of a single thing that has happened in my life that a church or pastor would have been able to help me with, and I am being completely honest. I will say that other churches and pastors frequently help my mom and dad since they choose to live "on faith" and regularly find that the ends don't meet when you live on faith, but they don't see it that way. They live life in such a way that even if they can't pay their rent, or their utilities, as long as they had a can of beans for supper, then God provided (even if it took someone who DIDN'T live on faith to provide the can of beans...)

At the same time, I do try to nurture my relationships with my friends and certain family members that have a life outside of church. I believe that being around other people that care is rewarding to all parties involved in the relationship, but there are many places you can find that outside of church. I see no reason to subject myself to church, a pastor, or even religion of any sort. I don't need anything that they are selling... and feel free to call me selfish, but I DO practice giving to charity and volunteering my time as well, and I also don't live in the gutter (like is predicted of anyone who "backslides").

Ephesians 4:11-13 clearly states that there is a place in our lives for pastors, teachers, etc. I have no doubt that someone stranded on a deserted island could live for God and make it. All others are clearly expected to assemble together, be ministered to by pastors, teachers, etc according to the Word of God. You are a smart guy so I bet deep down you know all of this but because of your personal experience with those ministries being misused you reject it.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I really wish my decision did not have me walking away from this.

Why don't other Christians believe in praise and worship?!

I don't want to leave this.

THis isn't my church, but I recognize the same Holy Spirit of God.

This does not happen at the Assembly of God I now attend.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRSGKeErqWA&feature=related

[onefaith2]

I really wish my decision did not have me walking away from this.

Why don't other Christians believe in praise and worship?!

I don't want to leave this.

THis isn't my church, but I recognize the same Holy Spirit of God.

This does not happen at the Assembly of God I now attend.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRSGKeErqWA&feature=related

They used to.. Jermyn maybe you should attend both .. I'm not sure what makes it distinct

[Jermyn Davidson]

They used to.. Jermyn maybe you should attend both .. I'm not sure what makes it distinct

What is it that you are unsure about?

[onefaith2]

What is it that you are unsure about?

The difference in the worship.. why the AOG who at one time most likely worshipped just like Apostolics have not emphasized the same refervor.

[Jermyn Davidson]

The difference in the worship.. why the AOG who at one time most likely worshipped just like Apostolics have not emphasized the same refervor.

Same here!

It is saddening.

I haven't joined this church, but probably will because it's so close to my house and there are opportunities for me to actually get involved in the church in a little while, once I officially "join".

From a conversation I had with this Pastor about 9 months ago, when I first visited the church, I don't even think he thinks what used to happen in the AOG church and what happens in Apostolic churches today (concerning the demonstrative praise and worship) is biblical.

Which may be the one thing that keeps me from joining here-- but I need to find somewhere to worship....

[Timmy]

The difference in the worship.. why the AOG who at one time most likely worshipped just like Apostolics have not emphasized the same refervor.

They got tired. :D

Only half kidding, by the way. Or less. ;) They still have that fervor on occasions, like revivals or camp meetings. Maybe they prefer it that way. Makes it more special. :dunno

[onefaith2]

Same here!

It is saddening.

I haven't joined this church, but probably will because it's so close to my house and there are opportunities for me to actually get involved in the church in a little while, once I officially "join".

From a conversation I had with this Pastor about 9 months ago, when I first visited the church, I don't even think he thinks what used to happen in the AOG church and what happens in Apostolic churches today (concerning the demonstrative praise and worship) is biblical.

Which may be the one thing that keeps me from joining here-- but I need to find somewhere to worship....

The dancing, singing, shouting, leaping, etc. is very biblical if we take in kind to psalms. Surely you can find a place.. or visit both.. :)

[Jermyn Davidson]

The dancing, singing, shouting, leaping, etc. is very biblical if we take in kind to psalms. Surely you can find a place.. or visit both.. :)

Not interested in visiting another Apostolic church.

Either I attend the one that I know and love here in Central Fl or I find another non-Apostolic church all together and I have since decided that it is best that I stop attending the Apostolic church here.

[Praxeas]

The difference in the worship.. why the AOG who at one time most likely worshipped just like Apostolics have not emphasized the same refervor.
Well that depends on which AOG and what you mean by 'ferver'.

If you look back at Azusa and Topeka, they were prayer meetings. There was no loud thumping music. People were not running the aisles.

Give me a group of people that pray "fervently" over a group of people that run around in circles, scream and jump any day. Most of that stuff is pure emotionalism, some is exhibitionism and the rest is someone's non-biblical idea of what pleases God.

When there is genuine rejoicing, that's fine, but a lot of what goes on is a human version of Pavlov's dogs..play the music, watch then run for a reward

[onefaith2]

Well that depends on which AOG and what you mean by 'ferver'.

If you look back at Azusa and Topeka, they were prayer meetings. There was no loud thumping music. People were not running the aisles.

Give me a group of people that pray "fervently" over a group of people that run around in circles, scream and jump any day. Most of that stuff is pure emotionalism, some is exhibitionism and the rest is someone's non-biblical idea of what pleases God.

When there is genuine rejoicing, that's fine, but a lot of what goes on is a human version of Pavlov's dogs..play the music, watch then run for a reward

You can have fervent worship without nonsensicals. Jermyn is talking about the annointed praise and worship found in apostolic churches is not readily found in the AOG and he is right.

[onefaith2]

Not interested in visiting another Apostolic church.

Either I attend the one that I know and love here in Central Fl or I find another non-Apostolic church all together and I have since decided that it is best that I stop attending the Apostolic church here.

So you would not visit any other Apostolic church, not even Global or AWCF or Aljc or any of the 100's of orgs out there?

Sam is licensed in a OP org and also in a Trinitarian org. He has found that he can fit quite well in both. Remember not all oneness folks are staunch in some of the areas that you have trouble with agreeing with.

[CC1]

Well that depends on which AOG and what you mean by 'ferver'.

If you look back at Azusa and Topeka, they were prayer meetings. There was no loud thumping music. People were not running the aisles.

Give me a group of people that pray "fervently" over a group of people that run around in circles, scream and jump any day. Most of that stuff is pure emotionalism, some is exhibitionism and the rest is someone's non-biblical idea of what pleases God.

When there is genuine rejoicing, that's fine, but a lot of what goes on is a human version of Pavlov's dogs..play the music, watch then run for a reward

Amen and amen. Many Pentecostals worship the worship.

[onefaith2]

Amen and amen. Many Pentecostals worship the worship.

and many enjoy the annointing they feel in the worship

[Praxeas]

Father, son, and spirit are the same being. The concept of God is very difficult and there has been much error about the trinity taught and has led to many misconceptions.

This is from an article by John Piper that has helped me understand:
Within God's one, undivided being is an "unfolding" into three personal distinctions. These personal distinctions are modes of existence within the divine being, but are not divisions of the divine being. They are personal forms of existence other than a difference in being. The late theologian Herman Bavinck has stated something very helpful at this point: "The persons are modes of existence within the being; accordingly, the Persons differ among themselves as the one mode of existence differs from the other, and-using a common illustration-as the open palm differs from a closed fist."[4]

Because each of these "forms of existence" are relational (and thus are Persons), they are each a distinct center of consciousness, with each center of consciousness regarding Himself as "I" and the others as "You." Nonetheless, these three Persons all "consist of" the same "stuff" (that is, the same "what," or essence). As theologian and apologist Norman Geisler has explained it, while essence is what you are, person is who you are. So God is one "what" but three "whos.

http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/articles/what-is-the-doctrine-of-the-trinity
One personal God who has three forms of being will fit that bill just as easily. In Oneness the same Person of God is both Father and Son, but in distinct modes of being. And since the Son is in His human mode of Being he also has a human mind/will. Not a second conscious person but a distinct way of being consciously aware

Therefore you have a functional relationship between God the Father and Christ the man which is different than the functional relationship between God the Father and God the Son, two divine persons

[Praxeas]

Onefaith,

You are so close to trinitarian doctrine. Why not just take the step? Why divide against the rest of Christianity on this issue?
So he should change his doctrine out of peer pressure? :foottap

[onefaith2]

So he should change his doctrine out of peer pressure? :foottap

did you read my reply?

[Praxeas]

No. Oneness Pentecostals are labeled heretics by mainstream Christianity. I understand this. It was settled 1700 years ago. If oneness Pentecostals do not want to be viewed this way then it might be up to them to initiate dialogue with the churches.

The council of Nicaea, the way I understand it, claimed the Son as eternal. The issue of separate persons was not the issue but if Jesus was of the same stature as the Father and of the same substance.
Actually it was not settled 1700 years ago.

First of all the Trinity as a doctrine developed over the course of several hundred years.

It was not "settled" in 300 AD. Rather in 320 AD the secular Roman government called for bishops to come and discuss the Arian controversy.

Most of the attendees were arian opponents. They "settled" on Arianism being a heresy.

What they concluded was forced on everyone living in the Roman Empire by law and threat of punishment.l

Several years later after Constantine a new Emperor came into power and he was sympathetic to Arianism and reversed that, by law, by decree.

Eventually the Trinity one out again because Roman Law demanded it. That is how it became the majority by numbers

The original creed though did not settle the issue. The "Trinity" continued to evolve over the years to include more detail about the Spirit and identify what a person was. The original word used by Tertullian did not mean what we commonly refer to "person" today.

[Praxeas]

did you read my reply?
no

[Praxeas]

On the tongues issue. I wish we stressed tongues/Holy Ghost as a dynamic issue and not a salvational one.

The Pentecostals that got this in the beginning of last century saw it that way. Many of them took off on missionary journeys believing they were empowered to speak the language of the other countries though obviously that did not happen.

I'd like to see more stressed placed on the gifts. Pentecostals tend to focus so much on tongues and many very conservative churches and liberal churches de-emphasize the gifts

[On The Wheel]

The dancing, singing, shouting, leaping, etc. is very biblical if we take in kind to psalms. Surely you can find a place.. or visit both.. :)

A great deal of "traditional" apostolic worship cannot be found in scripture. There was no record of running of the aisles, nor "shuck and jive, herky jerky" dancing as we see it today. Our definition of "shouting", which includes much of the above, with the addition of screaming, wailing, pew jumping, and any other sundry uncontrolled outburst is also not found in the Word.

What we can find in the bible is dancing (mostly choreographed), singing (practiced and rehearsed most of the time), clapping, praising, loud music, etc... Not all "traditional" apostolics would be comfortable in a Biblical worship service containing all of these elements.

In addition, even speaking in tongues in the public worship service is very much frowned upon because it causes confusion among those that are not a part of the church. Of course, apostolic worship services are designed primarily to keep the faithful happy.

If the sinners are offended, that's just too bad!! We had church!!!!!

[deltaguitar]

Actually it was not settled 1700 years ago.

First of all the Trinity as a doctrine developed over the course of several hundred years.

It was not "settled" in 300 AD. Rather in 320 AD the secular Roman government called for bishops to come and discuss the Arian controversy.

Most of the attendees were arian opponents. They "settled" on Arianism being a heresy.

What they concluded was forced on everyone living in the Roman Empire by law and threat of punishment.l

Several years later after Constantine a new Emperor came into power and he was sympathetic to Arianism and reversed that, by law, by decree.

Eventually the Trinity one out again because Roman Law demanded it. That is how it became the majority by numbers

The original creed though did not settle the issue. The "Trinity" continued to evolve over the years to include more detail about the Spirit and identify what a person was. The original word used by Tertullian did not mean what we commonly refer to "person" today.

I cannot disagree with most of what you wrote. It hasn't been an easy doctrine to formulate or understand. I come in contact with "trinitarians" all the time who do not understand the theology. I don't completely understand it but I do know that I believe in the son prior to Bethlehem.

Even though Oneness is deemed a heresy I do not believe that the two doctrines are that far apart and I believe oneness people are saved. There are other issues that really separate the Oneness from mainline Christianity.

[onefaith2]

A great deal of "traditional" apostolic worship cannot be found in scripture. There was no record of running of the aisles, nor "shuck and jive, herky jerky" dancing as we see it today. Our definition of "shouting", which includes much of the above, with the addition of screaming, wailing, pew jumping, and any other sundry uncontrolled outburst is also not found in the Word.


So the men who got healed at the gate beautiful, didn't think he might have ran while he was walking and leaping and praising God? I ask you to prove that all Jewish worship choreographed? Have you ever seen dancing in the Jewish culture? Some of it is spontaneous. Screaming? I'm not sure how long they were on the day of Pentecost but it was loud enough to be noised abroad and they were on the second floor...pew jumping? They didn't have pews to jump.

Worship is often found in emotion. Everyone shows that emotion differently. Since the Bible doesn't say you can't do these things, it would be adding to the scripture to say you could not or would not.


In addition, even speaking in tongues in the public worship service is very much frowned upon because it causes confusion among those that are not a part of the church. Of course, apostolic worship services are designed primarily to keep the faithful happy.

If the sinners are offended, that's just too bad!! We had church!!!!!

I see you must think that people cannot pray and worship to God in a public setting. Paul is talking about people coming to speak to the crowd. He says if you do not have an interpreter pray to yourself and God and keep silent in the church. Now do you believe Paul meant we could not speak any words in public church? We don't find that in the book of acts at least. When they got together, it was different. Paul was correcting a travesty in the corinthian church, not telling someone that they can't speak in church to God privately.

I was scared to death coming to a Pentecostal church. Most people are, but people come back. I doubt folks being exuberant in worship causes souls to be lost. They might just find a calmer church to go to. That doesn't mean every church has to be calm in worship, because many like to be exuberant. There has to be a church for everyone.

Some like red carpet, Some like soft music, others like blue carpet and loud music.

So if every church tried to please everyone seeking God, where would those who worship exuberantly when they feel the Spirit go?

Tons of people have testified that they said they would never go back to a Pentecostal church after the first time, but they came back and joined them later.

[onefaith2]

I cannot disagree with most of what you wrote. It hasn't been an easy doctrine to formulate or understand. I come in contact with "trinitarians" all the time who do not understand the theology. I don't completely understand it but I do know that I believe in the son prior to Bethlehem.

Even though Oneness is deemed a heresy I do not believe that the two doctrines are that far apart and I believe oneness people are saved. There are other issues that really separate the Oneness from mainline Christianity.

Why do you believe Jesus was the Son prior to Bethlehem? John calls him the Word on several occasions.

[Jermyn Davidson]

On the tongues issue. I wish we stressed tongues/Holy Ghost as a dynamic issue and not a salvational one.

The Pentecostals that got this in the beginning of last century saw it that way. Many of them took off on missionary journeys believing they were empowered to speak the language of the other countries though obviously that did not happen.

I'd like to see more stressed placed on the gifts. Pentecostals tend to focus so much on tongues and many very conservative churches and liberal churches de-emphasize the gifts

This is EXACLTY as the Bible presents it.

[onefaith2]

This is EXACLTY as the Bible presents it.

Depends on what type of salvation.. from sin? from hell?

According to Romans 8 the Holy Ghost is to quicken our mortal bodies so it is essential to our walk with Christ and they received tongues when they received the experience. However this is no open condemnation per say unless one truly believes the birth of the SPirit is the baptism of the HG. Thats the only way the HG baptism could be considered a heaven/hell issue.

I say the promises of God are yea and amen.

[Aquila]

Will you convert to Trinitarianism because they do not have the expectation of every to speak in tongues?

Acts 2:38 is two commands and a promise. THE AOG while embracing the promise of the HG as a priviledge to every believer, does not emphasive their converts to earnestly seek for it.

The General Superintendent or overseer says this about the baptism of the HG "Why would you want a 4 cylinder when you can have a 6 cynliner motor"

I'm not so sure this is healthy either because it is obvious that the HG was a normulative experience for believers in the NT.

If the condemning to hell would leave and the promise stay, believers wouldn't feel so bad that they hadn't got it yet in the UPC. I think it just needs to be expressed differently so people can understand salvation is a process and just because you haven't spoken in tongues, does not mean you are not part of the body of Christ (as in baptism you unite with Christ). There is a reason though a high percentage of new converts claim the Holy Ghost baptism in the UPC. Its made imperative that is necessary and God wants everyone to have it. Threat of hell is not needed for this though in my opinion.

What if a lot of what is seen in the Pentecostal movement isn't "biblical tongues"? We have examples ranging from the ancient pagan cults to Voodoo to Sufi Islam of people speaking in unintelligible sounds. On the day of Pentecost the Apostles spoke languages that were understood by those who spoke a different native tongue. We don't see this among those who "speak in tongues" today. The tongues of today don't even reflect those governed by I Corinthians 14. Here's a video of Voodoo tongues....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxsQkKdqR2Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVSLc0cqlZM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMWD5mWxMSo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mBKzQN8RS4&feature=related

One has to admit... it is thought provoking. Having Pentecostal roots... I find it a rather important contemplation.

[UnTraditional]

What if a lot of what is seen in the Pentecostal movement isn't "biblical tongues"? We have examples ranging from the ancient pagan cults to Voodoo to Sufi Islam of people speaking in unintelligible sounds. On the day of Pentecost the Apostles spoke languages that were understood by those who spoke a different native tongue. We don't see this among those who "speak in tongues" today. The tongues of today don't even reflect those governed by I Corinthians 14. Here's a video of Voodoo tongues....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxsQkKdqR2Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVSLc0cqlZM

Now, I do take exception with these cessationists and their 'reasoning' away tongues. John MacArthur claims that the tongues in Corinthians were demonic. Let me state directly that the tongues back then are the same tongues today.

In addressing the tongues spoken at Pentecost, let us look at Acts 2.

And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.
(Acts 2:6 NKJV)

Notice what is said. They all heard them speak in their own language. The modern argument against tongues is that each heard someone there speak in their own language. The fact is, as tongues were spoken, they all heard them all speak in different languages. In other words, as tongues were spoken, The Parthians heard them all speak in their own language, the Greeks in their own, etc.

You are accusing tongues of being voodoo. To me, that is borderline blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. I would be very careful of not crossing that line.

[Praxeas]

And what if it's NOT Aquila and you just implicated a lot of people AND the work of the Holy Ghost attributed to Satan...not good

[Aquila]

And what if it's NOT Aquila and you just implicated a lot of people AND the work of the Holy Ghost attributed to Satan...not good

I'm not going to say either way on this one, because I sincerely don't want to offend the Lord. However, the points about "tongues" as they are practiced in many churches today should cause us a pause for serious consideration.

In Pentecostalism we see cults of personality and controlling pastors.
Accentric legalism and bondage.
Even the uncut hair bit is something found among witches (some have even used occult sources to validate a supposed mystical "power" in uncut hair).

Since we see such patterns in Voodoo and other pagan religions... we do well to consider, are our tongues pagan? Or are they real and practiced biblically?

Those are fair questions. Be a Berean. Search the Scriptures. Don't go by "feeling" (sensual religion)... have faith in solid truth.

[Aquila]

Now, I do take exception with these cessationists and their 'reasoning' away tongues. John MacArthur claims that the tongues in Corinthians were demonic. Let me state directly that the tongues back then are the same tongues today.

In addressing the tongues spoken at Pentecost, let us look at Acts 2.

And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.
(Acts 2:6 NKJV)

Notice what is said. They all heard them speak in their own language. The modern argument against tongues is that each heard someone there speak in their own language. The fact is, as tongues were spoken, they all heard them all speak in different languages. In other words, as tongues were spoken, The Parthians heard them all speak in their own language, the Greeks in their own, etc.

I used to see it this way too. But this would mean that the miracle is in the ears of the hearer, not the tongues themselves. It would then be a gift of "hearing" imparted to the unsaved.

You are accusing tongues of being voodoo. To me, that is borderline blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. I would be very careful of not crossing that line.

Not "accusing".

Thanks dear friend. I'm trying not to cross the line. Thank you for the admonishment. But I am bringing this up for sincere consideration. I'm not denying that the gift of tongues may be real. My question is... Is what we see in so many churches both biblical and practiced biblically?

I know how science has established that the lower nervous system takes over when one is in a hightened spiritual state leading to ecstatic language and stammering lips. We see this in things such as cults and pagan religions. No doubt, the true gift is a powerful one.

Why is it that pagan religions have had this ecstatic speech, dance, running, and falling down for thousands of years... and why would God bring Christians to experience something so "pagan-like"?

John McArthur's point about what Christ said regarding "vain repititions" caused me serious pause.

Matthew 6:7 (King James Version)
7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen (Pagans) do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

[Praxeas]

In Pentecostalism we see cults of personality and controlling pastors.

Been around far longer than Pentecost. Please tie the above statement to tongues

Accentric legalism and bondage.
Been around far longer than Pentecost. Please tie the above statement to tongues

Even the uncut hair bit is something found among witches (some have even used occult sources to validate a supposed mystical "power" in uncut hair)
Please tie the above statement to tongues

Since we see such patterns in Voodoo and other pagan religions... we do well to consider, are our tongues pagan? Or are they real and practiced biblically?
Ive yet to see worshipers of Jesus in paganism associated with tongues. Remember tongues has occurred in Christianity many times over the centuries and as seen in the Wesleyans, was associated with a group of people who prayed and worshipped Jesus, not the Devil

[Aquila]

Been around far longer than Pentecost. Please tie the above statement to tongues

True. However, those led of the Holy Spirit wouldn't lead in such a way.

Been around far longer than Pentecost. Please tie the above statement to tongues

True. However, those led of the Holy Spirit wouldn't lead in such a way. Tongues aren't necessarily tied to this. But error does beget error.

Please tie the above statement to tongues

If an entire movement would embrace a pagan notion such as "magic hair", are they beyond embracing a form of spirit possession as seen in Voodoo that has "tongues" and ecstatic experiences? I've been in services where the women took their hair down while speaking in unintelligiable tongues and moved ecstatically with hair flailing to fight spirits, hanging their hair over children, and the sick in order to minister "healing". Is this "Christian" or even "biblical"?

Ive yet to see worshipers of Jesus in paganism associated with tongues.

I have. See my statement above.

Remember tongues has occurred in Christianity many times over the centuries and as seen in the Wesleyans, was associated with a group of people who prayed and worshipped Jesus, not the Devil

Yes. However, we also know that Satan has repeatedly sought to infiltrate the church. How do we know that what we see as "outpourings" aren't actually "invasions"? Also, these were Trinitarians. Why would the Holy Ghost fall on those in false doctrine? According to us... they don't even worship the true God. I know many Apostolics who teach that the Trinitarian experiences should be regarded as demonic. Certainly you've heard this, right?

Paul wrote,

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

In the last days we'd expect to see a rise in seducing spiritism and doctrines of devils within the church.

It's something that I think should cause every Pentecostal to search themselves, to be assured that what they are practicing isn't of the enemy. Does the gift bring religious pride and "self" edification? Or is it indeed a gift that builds up the body? Is the gift used according to I Corinthians 14? Questions like these.

[Aquila]

I'm just asking. Do we see the same spiritual experiences in Voodoo and pagan cults? Yes or no? How can one be SURE that they're not in error?

[Sam]

...You are accusing tongues of being voodoo. To me, that is borderline blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. I would be very careful of not crossing that line.

yeppers


"Speaking with tongues" is seen among many pagan religions. It was part of the pagan religions of Corinth. But, just because speaking with tongues happens in pagan religions or devil worship does not mean all speaking with tongues is demonic.

Only one time is it recorded in the New Testament that hearers understood what speakers in tongues were saying. That is in Acts 2 where it is recorded that about 12-15 languages/tongues are understood by the hearers. There were Jews there from the whole known world. Other places where it is recorded or implied that speaking with tongues occurred there is no mention of anyone understanding what was said.

[Aquila]

yeppers


"Speaking with tongues" is seen among many pagan religions. It was part of the pagan religions of Corinth. But, just because speaking with tongues happens in pagan religions or devil worship does not mean all speaking with tongues is demonic.

I agree. Not all speaking in tongues is demonic. However, how would one know if they were filled with the Holy Spirit or a demonic spirit? For example, the first church I attended was DEEPLY involved with the "magic hair" doctrine (a pagan doctrine) and EXRTEMELY legalistic. Like I said, I remember the women being whipped up into a frenzy and letting their hair loose, flailing ecstatically to "unleash the power". Others let their hair loose to fall on children to pray blessings and protection. Others dropped their hair over the sick and infirm. All was to "unleash the power". I remember the voice boomintg over the sound system, "Unleash the power! You've got power! You've got it! You've got it! You've got it!" Sadly... Jesus wasn't invoked once that I can remember. I was just "freaked out". How would I know if I received the REAL Holy Spirit? I ask, because I certainly want the real thing. And I'm sure anyone in Pentecost would agree that they want the real thing too.

Only one time is it recorded in the New Testament that hearers understood what speakers in tongues were saying. That is in Acts 2 where it is recorded that about 12-15 languages/tongues are understood by the hearers. There were Jews there from the whole known world. Other places where it is recorded or implied that speaking with tongues occurred there is no mention of anyone understanding what was said.

I know there are verses where it states that they spoke in tongues "and prophesied" or "magnified God".

Acts 10:46
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

What if this means that those speaking did prophesy and magnify God in a human language unknown to them as the Apostles did at Pentecost?

Acts 2:11
Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

This could imply that tongues were essentially used the same way (in at least these instances ) as they were at Pentecost (the unlocking of human languages).

Lastly, remember, we're commanded not to pray as the heathen (pagans) do...

Matthew 6:7 (King James Version)
7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen (Pagans) do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

The words are "vain repetition" or "meaningless repetition". English speakers tend to focus on the word "meaningless," because we use this word in a euphemistic way. That is not the intent of the words here. The phrase means what is being spoken is:

1 Meaningless. In other words, they are not really saying anything. It is just a noise: in fact, the Greek "word" here is not even a word. It's what we call an onomatapoiea. It is a sound, like saying "The fan went SWISHHH." Specifically, it is "Bata."

2 Repetitious. Over and over again.

This would mean that Jesus is condemning pagan jibberish. If this is what Jesus meant... how do we distinguish what we do from the pagan practice?

[Orthodoxy]

If we really needed to be concerned about "false tongues," don't you think Paul would have mentioned it in at least one of his epistles? Especially the epistle to the deviant Corinthians.

But no, in 1 Cor. 14 he says, "Now I want you all to speak in tongues," and "Do not forbid speaking in tongues." Nowhere does he say, "Be on your guard against pagan tongues."

This book (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0830733922/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_3?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0977173909&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=12SWRQVC3M7MVYVK596N) from Sam Storms is really helpful on this issue.

[Orthodoxy]

Why do you believe Jesus was the Son prior to Bethlehem? John calls him the Word on several occasions.

John 17:5

5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

[Aquila]

If we really needed to be concerned about "false tongues," don't you think Paul would have mentioned it in at least one of his epistles? Especially the epistle to the deviant Corinthians.

But no, in 1 Cor. 14 he says, "Now I want you all to speak in tongues," and "Do not forbid speaking in tongues." Nowhere does he say, "Be on your guard against pagan tongues."

This book (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0830733922/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_3?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0977173909&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=12SWRQVC3M7MVYVK596N) from Sam Storms is really helpful on this issue.

The video from John MacArthur addresses this. If the Epistle is looked at another way, it's specifically addressing pagan-like tongues among the Corinthians.

[Orthodoxy]

The video from Douglas MacArthur addresses this. If the Epistle is looked at another way, it's specifically addressing pagan-like tongues among the Corinthians.

I know, I've listened to his entire "Charismatic Chaos" audio series. I think he is way off in his interpretation of 1 Cor. 13 and 14.

And I usually really like John MacArthur.

[Aquila]

If we really needed to be concerned about "false tongues," don't you think Paul would have mentioned it in at least one of his epistles? Especially the epistle to the deviant Corinthians.

But no, in 1 Cor. 14 he says, "Now I want you all to speak in tongues," and "Do not forbid speaking in tongues." Nowhere does he say, "Be on your guard against pagan tongues."

This book (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0830733922/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_3?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0977173909&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=12SWRQVC3M7MVYVK596N) from Sam Storms is really helpful on this issue.

When Paul states that he wants them all to speak in tongues, first we understand that Paul is speaking about true tongues that are interpreted and edify the body of Christ. Second, Paul is using a hyberbole. It's like when Paul stated that he would have every man be as he was (celibate). Paul was comparing the corrupt tongues that the Corinthians were using to the true gift. Paul would rather have all of them have the true gift, but as stated in I Corinthians 12, not all do.

When Paul instructed them not to forbid speaking in tongues, definitely this would be in regards to the true gift. However, Paul had already addressed how their pagan practice of "self edifying tongues" wasn't of value to the body. So Paul regulated the use of the true gift in the church, but condemned the false saying that he'd rather that they prophesy.

[Aquila]

You mean John MacArthur. I know, I've listened to his entire "Charismatic Chaos" audio series. I think he is way off in his interpretation of 1 Cor. 13 and 14.

Yes, "John MacArthur". lol My fingers go on autopilot sometimes. lol

[Aquila]

John 17:5

5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

:thumbsup

We might not like it... but it says what it says.

I'd add...

Psalm 2:12
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Psalm 110:1
1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Hebrews 1:7-12 (King James Version)
7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

[onefaith2]

I'm not going to say either way on this one, because I sincerely don't want to offend the Lord. However, the points about "tongues" as they are practiced in many churches today should cause us a pause for serious consideration.

In Pentecostalism we see cults of personality and controlling pastors.
Accentric legalism and bondage.
Even the uncut hair bit is something found among witches (some have even used occult sources to validate a supposed mystical "power" in uncut hair).

Since we see such patterns in Voodoo and other pagan religions... we do well to consider, are our tongues pagan? Or are they real and practiced biblically?

Those are fair questions. Be a Berean. Search the Scriptures. Don't go by "feeling" (sensual religion)... have faith in solid truth.

Satan has a counterfeit for everything regarding signs. This is what the Bible teaches.

However the signs are very real and every Spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God. The Holy Ghost experience set afire a blazing love for Jesus in me that wasn't there before. Trust me, what I got was not from the Devil.

[onefaith2]

John 17:5

5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the WOrd was God.

The preexistence of Jesus is not called the SOn, He is called the Word.

Luke 1:35 is where Jesus begins to be called the Son

[onefaith2]

:thumbsup

We might not like it... but it says what it says.

I'd add...

Psalm 2:12
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Psalm 110:1
1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Hebrews 1:7-12 (King James Version)
7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

Again the Bible calls Jesus the Word until HE is born. The scriptures in Psalms is fulfilled when Jesus arose..


Thats what the Bible teaches. Psalms 2 is also a prophecy

look

http://www.icr.org/article/2533/

there was no way for anyone to kiss a son not yet revealed

nice context ripper lol

[Praxeas]

If an entire movement would embrace a pagan notion such as "magic hair", are they beyond embracing a form of spirit possession as seen in Voodoo that has "tongues" and ecstatic experiences? I've been in services where the women took their hair down while speaking in unintelligiable tongues and moved ecstatically with hair flailing to fight spirits, hanging their hair over children, and the sick in order to minister "healing". Is this "Christian" or even "biblical"?
An entire movement has not embraced "magic hair" and that still does not prove your assertion about tongues.

I have. See my statement above.
Subjective

Yes. However, we also know that Satan has repeatedly sought to infiltrate the church. How do we know that what we see as "outpourings" aren't actually "invasions"? Also, these were Trinitarians. Why would the Holy Ghost fall on those in false doctrine?
Show me where false doctrine of any kind prevents someone from being blessed by God. In the bible, in Acts, nobody ever received a 12 week bible study to correct all false doctrines before they were filled with the Spirit

According to us... they don't even worship the true God.
Speaking for Who? You claim to be a Trinitarian. Please don't pretend now to be Oneness and condemn Trinitarians and say "according to us". That's gotta be the craziest thing I've ever heard. What are you? A waffle? One week you are Oneness, the next Trinitarian, then Oneness, back to Trinitarian and now you are claiming to be Oneness and condemning all Trinitarians?

I know many Apostolics who teach that the Trinitarian experiences should be regarded as demonic. Certainly you've heard this, right?
No

Paul wrote,
1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;In the last days we'd expect to see a rise in seducing spiritism and doctrines of devils within the church.

It's something that I think should cause every Pentecostal to search themselves, to be assured that what they are practicing isn't of the enemy. Does the gift bring religious pride and "self" edification? Or is it indeed a gift that builds up the body? Is the gift used according to I Corinthians 14? Questions like these.
That's nice. My earlier questions about association remains.

[UnTraditional]

Cessationism is a tool of the enemy to destroy the faith of the people of God.

[Aquila]

Satan has a counterfeit for everything regarding signs. This is what the Bible teaches.

However the signs are very real and every Spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God. The Holy Ghost experience set afire a blazing love for Jesus in me that wasn't there before. Trust me, what I got was not from the Devil.

Same here. After I got the Holy Ghost the Scriptures just came "alive". It was beautiful.

[Aquila]

in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the WOrd was God.

The preexistence of Jesus is not called the SOn, He is called the Word.

Luke 1:35 is where Jesus begins to be called the Son

Since Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever more... what Jesus was, He is. Jesus had always been the Son of God. It was just manifest to US that He was the Son of God in His incarnation.

[Aquila]

Again the Bible calls Jesus the Word until HE is born. The scriptures in Psalms is fulfilled when Jesus arose..


Thats what the Bible teaches. Psalms 2 is also a prophecy

look

http://www.icr.org/article/2533/

there was no way for anyone to kiss a son not yet revealed

nice context ripper lol

Prophetically Christ is acknowledged as the Son. Since Christ is divine in nature, Christ never changes. He wasn't the Word and then "became" the Son. What defines Christ as "Son" isn't His fleshly incarnation, it's the fact that He is the eternal express image of the Father's own person. The term Logos was a literary divice used by John to define Christ as the very image of God to Hellenist Jews and Greeks (John's audience).

[Aquila]

Cessationism is a tool of the enemy to destroy the faith of the people of God.

Can be.

My question wasn't so much based on the notion that gifts have ceased (I definately don't believe that). My question is... how do we know we have the "biblical" manifestation of tongues? Also, how do we know we practice the gift biblically?

For example... you have Trinitarian Pentecostals and Oneness Pentecostals. Do both have the real Holy Ghost? Or has one received a false Holy Ghost? We see false "tongues" manifest among Voodoo believers. Clearly we can't take for granted that "tongues" are always the "real deal".

[Jermyn Davidson]

In a nostalgic moment yesterday afternoon, I sang the lyrics to a song that meant so much to me that is appropriate to the turn our conversation has taken.

"The Mighty God is Jesus,
the Prince of Peace is He.
The Everlasting Father,
The King Eternally.
The Wonderful in wisdom,
By whom all thnigs were made.
The fullness of the Godhead
in Jesus is displayed."

"I't's all in Him.
It's all in Him.
The fulness of the Godhead,
is all in Him.
It's all in Him.
It's all in Him.
The Mighty God is Jesus and it's all in Him."


My favorite verse...

"The Alpha and Omega,
Beginning and the End.
The Living Word Incarnate,
the helpless sinner's friend.
Our wisdom and perfection,
Our righteousness and power.
Yes all we need in Jesus,
we find this very hour."



I used to sing this song with such gusto, such a surety. I had not thought of the song in years and it came back to me yesterday.

Wow.

[Aquila]

In a nostalgic moment yesterday afternoon, I sang the lyrics to a song that meant so much to me that is appropriate to the turn our conversation has taken.

"The Mighty God is Jesus,
the Prince of Peace is He.
The Everlasting Father,
The King Eternally.
The Wonderful in wisdom,
By whom all thnigs were made.
The fullness of the Godhead
in Jesus is displayed."

"I't's all in Him.
It's all in Him.
The fulness of the Godhead,
is all in Him.
It's all in Him.
It's all in Him.
The Mighty God is Jesus and it's all in Him."


My favorite verse...

"The Alpha and Omega,
Beginning and the End.
The Living Word Incarnate,
the helpless sinner's friend.
Our wisdom and perfection,
Our righteousness and power.
Yes all we need in Jesus,
we find this very hour."



I used to sing this song with such gusto, such a surety. I had not thought of the song in years and it came back to me yesterday.

Wow.

It is a beautiful song. However, songs are often "bad theology". Jesus speaks of a personal pre-existence with the Father. The Bible is firm... the Father and the Son are "one" in that they have a mutual indwelling. This is described well by Jesus....

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)

Notice, Jesus doesn't say that He "is" the Father. Christ describes a mutual indwelling, a unity of being. Christ says, "the Father is in me, and I in him." Notice the personal distinction of person drawn by Christ in regards to Himself and the Father. This is the biblical relationship between the Father and the Son.

[Sam]

How many of God's Spirits are dwelling in us?
Christ is in us. The Spirit of Christ is in us. We say that Jesus is in our heart. We are the temple or dwelling place of God. God says He will dwell in us and be a father. The Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost/Spirit of God dwells in us. How many Spirits is that and how many divine persons is that?

[onefaith2]

Since Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever more... what Jesus was, He is. Jesus had always been the Son of God. It was just manifest to US that He was the Son of God in His incarnation.

LOL Jesus was not a man yesterday, today, and forever. Or do you believe he was?

Jesus being the same yesterday, today, and forever does not speak of his mode of being.

[onefaith2]

Prophetically Christ is acknowledged as the Son. Since Christ is divine in nature, Christ never changes. He wasn't the Word and then "became" the Son. What defines Christ as "Son" isn't His fleshly incarnation, it's the fact that He is the eternal express image of the Father's own person. The term Logos was a literary divice used by John to define Christ as the very image of God to Hellenist Jews and Greeks (John's audience).

The Term Logos is how John describes the preexistent Christ in heaven.

There are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the WOrd, and the HOly Ghost, and these three are one.

[Aquila]

How many of God's Spirits are dwelling in us?
Christ is in us. The Spirit of Christ is in us. We say that Jesus is in our heart. We are the temple or dwelling place of God. God says He will dwell in us and be a father. The Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost/Spirit of God dwells in us. How many Spirits is that and how many divine persons is that?

Jesus drew distinction between Himself, the Father, and the Holy Ghost in John 14:26,

John 14:26 (King James Version)
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So we have three distinct "persons". Now, since they share being, all that one is the other is also. Therefore, the Holy Spirit is also the Spirit of Christ and the agent of the Father in Christ's incarnation.

[onefaith2]

Jesus drew distinction between Himself, the Father, and the Holy Ghost in John 14:26,

John 14:26 (King James Version)
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So we have three distinct "persons". Now, since they share being, all that one is the other is also. Therefore, the Holy Spirit is also the Spirit of Christ and the agent of the Father in Christ's incarnation.

Jesus said I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you.

How does he do this when someone else is the comforter?

He also said for the Father to make the church one even as him and the Father are one. How are they one? THese questions alone will form the framework to great revelation concerning WHO the Holy Ghost is.

[On The Wheel]

So the men who got healed at the gate beautiful, didn't think he might have ran while he was walking and leaping and praising God? I ask you to prove that all Jewish worship choreographed? Have you ever seen dancing in the Jewish culture? Some of it is spontaneous. Screaming? I'm not sure how long they were on the day of Pentecost but it was loud enough to be noised abroad and they were on the second floor...pew jumping? They didn't have pews to jump.

Worship is often found in emotion. Everyone shows that emotion differently. Since the Bible doesn't say you can't do these things, it would be adding to the scripture to say you could not or would not.



I see you must think that people cannot pray and worship to God in a public setting. Paul is talking about people coming to speak to the crowd. He says if you do not have an interpreter pray to yourself and God and keep silent in the church. Now do you believe Paul meant we could not speak any words in public church? We don't find that in the book of acts at least. When they got together, it was different. Paul was correcting a travesty in the corinthian church, not telling someone that they can't speak in church to God privately.

I was scared to death coming to a Pentecostal church. Most people are, but people come back. I doubt folks being exuberant in worship causes souls to be lost. They might just find a calmer church to go to. That doesn't mean every church has to be calm in worship, because many like to be exuberant. There has to be a church for everyone.

Some like red carpet, Some like soft music, others like blue carpet and loud music.

So if every church tried to please everyone seeking God, where would those who worship exuberantly when they feel the Spirit go?

Tons of people have testified that they said they would never go back to a Pentecostal church after the first time, but they came back and joined them later.

I'll try to address your issues briefly.

First of all, I never said all apostolic worship cannot be found in scripture, just some of the manifestations I mentioned.

Secondly, I do believe noise takes place in a worship service. Exuberant singing, praising, clapping, loud music, and dancing can be found in scripture. My only point concerning the dancing is that what is often seen in our services as "dancing" is not what is found in the Word. I doubt very seriously we can find scriptural record for Jews jerking and bucking all over the front of the synagogue, bumping into people and knocking over the flowers before falling unceremoniously under the front pew with their dress hiked up above the mid-thigh, a scene all too often played out in modern day "pentecost". Also, I never said all dancing in scripture was choreographed. I said that most was, which is a fact. Apostolics would label any choreographed dancing as "charismatic" or excessively worldly.

Thirdly, the war hoop or wailing kind of "screaming" is not edifying, and not surprisingly absent from scriptural worship as far as I can tell.

Forthly, concerning the Corinthian church, I don't have time to address all your concerns. I'll just say that I have never heard anyone in Pentecost interpret the scripture as you have here. Never does the text indicate that it is only the main person addressing the crowd that must abide by the guidelines given by Paul. To make things clear, I don't have any problem with tongues during a public worship service, as long as it is done in an orderly fashion during times of prayer or exuberant worship. What we often see in Pentecost that might have disturbed Paul also, is the loud and ostentatious tongue talker that drowns out whatever else is going on. It is not in concert with the service, but a "solo" if you will. Since tongues without interpretation is meant to only edify the speaker, people should not yell or scream at the top of their voice in tongues. The only purpose that serves is to attract attention to themselves and away from what God is doing for the body as a whole. That is not edifying to the church.

Lastly, we worship to please God, not others. However, God is only pleased when his kingdom is advanced. We must be careful to follow the doctrines of scripture in worship as we do in all other things. I find it strangely amazing that apostolics, who claim to follow the apostles doctrine explicitly, get so riled up when anyone points out the discrepancies that may exist between real "old time Pentecost" worship and modern "old time Pentecost" worship.

I don't claim to know all the answers in this area, but I approach the worship of my Lord with awe and devotion. I don't think it is too much to expect that my worship be pleasing to him first and foremost. Scripture is a pretty good guide.

[Aquila]

Jesus said I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you.

How does he do this when someone else is the comforter?

He also said for the Father to make the church one even as him and the Father are one. How are they one? THese questions alone will form the framework to great revelation concerning WHO the Holy Ghost is.

I look at it this way....

Jesus does say,

John 14:18
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Yet, Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father and the Holy Ghost in regards to person....

John 14:26 (King James Version)
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So we are forced by the Scriptures to acknowledge two things. First, distinction of person ("I" vs. "he") with regards to the Holy Ghost (distinct "persons"). Second, unity of being, "I will come to you." Clearly just as Jesus and the Father are one with an essential coinherence, so too is Christ and the Holy Ghost one with an essential coinherence. Therefore wherever the Spirit is, Christ is also. If all three exist with a coinherence of person, where one is, the others are also. So in receiving the Holy Ghost... one can expect both the Father and Son to be present also. Notice what Jesus says,

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Notice that Jesus says "we will come", and "make our abode". How? Via the Holy Spirit. So when the Holy Spirit comes, so to does Christ and His Father.

John 14:18
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

This is why the Holy Ghost can be both "another comforter" and a distinct "he" in relation to Jesus Christ... yet also be the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of God (the Father), and when He (the Holy Spirit) comes... both the Father and Son are present.

John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:18
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 14:16 - Distinction of persons. Jesus (one person) prays to the Father (a second person) that He might send the Holy Ghost, "another comforter" identitified as a distinct "he" (a third person).
John 14:18 - Unity of being (with coinherence) with the Spirit, thus when the Spirit comes Jesus can say, "I will come unto you."
John 14:23 - Unity of being (with coinherence) between all three. "...we shall make our abode..."

[onefaith2]

I look at it this way....

Jesus does say,

John 14:18
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Yet, Jesus distinguishes Himself from the Father and the Holy Ghost in regards to person....

John 14:26 (King James Version)
26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.



I'll make it easier.. the HG is the SPirit of the Father and of the Son. When you receive the HG you get BOTH the Father and the Son.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Hard to believe it has been this long!

"Oh! Say, but I'm glad."

[Esaias]

I heard an old timer say this once:

When people leave This, they always have in the back of their mind, a remembrance of what it felt like. You cannot forget what the Presence of God feels like. And no matter how far they wander, its always there, that memory, they remember what it feels like...

JD, I pray that you work through whatever it is you are going through. I pray you find peace.

[shazeep]

Hard to believe it has been this long!

"Oh! Say, but I'm glad."amen. God is where you find Him, and you are not alone.

[CC1]

I heard an old timer say this once:

When people leave This, they always have in the back of their mind, a remembrance of what it felt like. You cannot forget what the Presence of God feels like. And no matter how far they wander, its always there, that memory, they remember what it feels like...

JD, I pray that you work through whatever it is you are going through. I pray you find peace.

I left old time Pentecost but I certainly have never left the presence of God! Forsaking the pentecostal culture of hopping, jumping, doing the whirly bird, jumping pews, screaming the name of Jesus loudly over and over as fast as you can, etc, etc is not the presence of God.

[houston]

I left old time Pentecost but I certainly have never left the presence of God! Forsaking the pentecostal culture of hopping, jumping, doing the whirly bird, jumping pews, screaming the name of Jesus loudly over and over as fast as you can, etc, etc is not the presence of God.

This! :happydance

[Esaias]

I left old time Pentecost but I certainly have never left the presence of God! Forsaking the pentecostal culture of hopping, jumping, doing the whirly bird, jumping pews, screaming the name of Jesus loudly over and over as fast as you can, etc, etc is not the presence of God.

You know, hopping, jumping, doing the whirly bird, shouting the name of the Lord are all entirely Biblical.

But you've progressed beyond that, of course.

[houston]

You know, hopping, jumping, doing the whirly bird, shouting the name of the Lord are all entirely Biblical.

But you've progressed beyond that, of course.

What..?

[Esaias]

What..?

Why..?

[Jermyn Davidson]

I agree with him on this, but I am very curious as to if and how he responds.

[CC1]

You know, hopping, jumping, doing the whirly bird, shouting the name of the Lord are all entirely Biblical.

But you've progressed beyond that, of course.

Please show me where. I don't find it in my bible. The account of the day of Pentecost has been twisted to cover any and all behavior in "worship". Show me where there are New Testament accounts of what we typically see in old time Pentecostal churches today.

Also reconcile the practice of speaking in tongues in church a lot with no interpretation with the guidelines given in I Corinthains 14. In particular verses 18 and 19.

[aegsm76]

I am "old time pentecost" and I have seen most of those, at some point.
And I believe that most of those can be done in the Spirit.
However, I was also trained that all things should be done, "decently and in order".
Sometimes, those things can become out of order.

[Disciple4life]

I could probably play guitar in the Spirit, but that doesn't mean it is in the Bible.

I could probably do a lot of things in the Spirit (like popping popcorn) but that does not make it Biblical!