The UPCI & Change

[unitedpraise10]

It is no lie that the UPCI is going through a huge demographic change at the moment, along with various other changes. I was recently told, by someone whom I trust and look up to, that in ten years time (2021), the United Pentecostal Church International will look very different. I'm trying to wrap my brain around what changes might take place. What do you think?

[NorCal]

Soothsaying is of Satan!

[pelathais]

It is no lie that the UPCI is going through a huge demographic change at the moment, along with various other changes. I was recently told, by someone whom I trust and look up to, that in ten years time (2021), the United Pentecostal Church International will look very different. I'm trying to wrap my brain around what changes might take place. What do you think?

Who said? And just how different?

Given current trends, unless a major move is made to clean up the atmosphere of wackiness ("bifurcated garments?") and the silent pandering that the leadership feels it must do to prevent more radicals from splintering away, the demographics of the UPC will completely lack ministers under 40 years of age.

[pelathais]

Soothsaying is of Satan!

Typical response to those with vision from those who lack it.

1 Samuel 3:1

[unitedpraise10]

Who said? And just how different?

Given current trends, unless a major move is made to clean up the atmosphere of wackiness ("bifurcated garments?") and the silent pandering that the leadership feels it must do to prevent more radicals from splintering away, the demographics of the UPC will completely lack ministers under 40 years of age.

I wouldn't dare say. You would probably know exactly who is was.

[NorCal]

Who said? And just how different?

Given current trends, unless a major move is made to clean up the atmosphere of wackiness ("bifurcated garments?") and the silent pandering that the leadership feels it must do to prevent more radicals from splintering away, the demographics of the UPC will completely lack ministers under 40 years of age.

I would have to totally deny that. We under 40 are going strong in sound doctrine.

I am an Conservative though (not Ultra Con).

[unitedpraise10]

I would have to totally deny that. We under 40 are going strong in sound doctrine.

I am an Conservative though (not Ultra Con).

You have no doubt seen the dramatic change within our movement in the last 10-15 yrs have you not. We've all experienced the shift...we cannot deny that. I will say that these are our best days, and brighter days are ahead. With all of that being said, and the need to be moving forward continually, what changes do you think will take place...even with you staying in the conservative state of mind you are in? Change is inevitable.

[Truthseeker]

Change is not always bad.

[unitedpraise10]

Change is not always bad.

Agree

[pelathais]

I wouldn't dare say. You would probably know exactly who is was.

gimme a hint... or a PM. :thumbsup

[pelathais]

Change is not always bad.

They have to do something. The fact that more people leave than are coming in has been a fact for decades. We're not even treading water here.

Does anyone remember that video of DKB and HM director Coon where they talked about how since the UPC was unable to retain those who are brought up in the movement, they must focus on those on the "outside" coming in?

It says a lot about the condition of an org when they are willing to sacrifice their own children to Molech because it's "easier" than being honest with them.

[Sam]

They have to do something. The fact that more people leave than are coming in has been a fact for decades. We're not even treading water here.

Does anyone remember that video of DKB and HM director Coon where they talked about how since the UPC was unable to retain those who are brought up in the movement, they must focus on those on the "outside" coming in?

It says a lot about the condition of an org when they are willing to sacrifice their own children to Molech because it's "easier" than being honest with them.

:thumbsup:thumbsup

[The Lemon]

Just speculating here...but I believe that as the old guard moves on (either to retirement etc.), the youger generation will no doubt introduce a more liberal view.

To what extent I don't know..maybe gradual and slow. There is no doubt that for the most part the younger generations coming up are no where near as conservative, generally speaking.

In truth this has its good points, but equally has its bad points.

[scotty]

We have two UPC churches within 8 miles of each other. One is considered liberal the other moderate. Many from the liberal have left and started going to the moderate church over the past year. Most of those that have switched to the moderate are 18 to 50 in age range. The pastor of the moderate church made (what I thought ) was an interesting statement in a wenesday night service a couple weeks ago. It went something like this:

"I don't care what standards or teachings I have lived by years ago, they have changed, they will change again over the next 5, 10, or 20 years, all I care about is whether I'm standing in the word of God."

[deltaguitar]

It is no lie that the UPCI is going through a huge demographic change at the moment, along with various other changes. I was recently told, by someone whom I trust and look up to, that in ten years time (2021), the United Pentecostal Church International will look very different. I'm trying to wrap my brain around what changes might take place. What do you think?

When I was UPC I just knew that we were on the verge of changing the movement and at any moment people were going to renounce the doctrine, and then make a slow steady move toward mainline Christianity while keeping the some UPC distinctive like holy ghost altar services, pentecostal preaching, and the worship style.

I was so wrong. Almost 100% of everyone I knew that questioned the doctrine seriously and tried to reconcile things in the word just left. There is almost no chance to ask serious questions and if you do then you are blamed as not believing or just wanting to be "worldly".

There comes a point that if you love people, you cannot stay in a movement that is so harmful to new converts.

I honestly don't see anything worth saving in the movement. The people that are there will probably never leave because that is all they have known and to leave is very traumatic.

I was once very that the movement would not exist as we know it in 30 years. So many people are leaving that are truly hungry for God. Now I am not so sure. I realize that there are so many people out there that are so wrapped up in the subculture that for them to leave would devistate them. It is not about seeing right from wrong and making a decision it is about their whole identity being taken from them.

Now, there is one thing in my mind that could start the ball rolling toward change and that would be if the concept of the gospel without Acts 2:38 and then justification by faith started to be preached.

[Charnock]

The UPC will never change it's doctrine or holiness bylaws.

[deltaguitar]

We have two UPC churches within 8 miles of each other. One is considered liberal the other moderate. Many from the liberal have left and started going to the moderate church over the past year. Most of those that have switched to the moderate are 18 to 50 in age range. The pastor of the moderate church made (what I thought ) was an interesting statement in a wenesday night service a couple weeks ago. It went something like this:

"I don't care what standards or teachings I have lived by years ago, they have changed, they will change again over the next 5, 10, or 20 years, all I care about is whether I'm standing in the word of God."

I think this trend is true. When I was UPC I lived it. If you are going to be in something you need to follow it all the way. Also, many just want to sin and will go where ever they think they can get away with it.

[onefaith2]

When I was UPC I just knew that we were on the verge of changing the movement and at any moment people were going to renounce the doctrine, and then make a slow steady move toward mainline Christianity while keeping the some UPC distinctive like holy ghost altar services, pentecostal preaching, and the worship style.

I was so wrong. Almost 100% of everyone I knew that questioned the doctrine seriously and tried to reconcile things in the word just left. There is almost no chance to ask serious questions and if you do then you are blamed as not believing or just wanting to be "worldly".

There comes a point that if you love people, you cannot stay in a movement that is so harmful to new converts.

I honestly don't see anything worth saving in the movement. The people that are there will probably never leave because that is all they have known and to leave is very traumatic.

I was once very that the movement would not exist as we know it in 30 years. So many people are leaving that are truly hungry for God. Now I am not so sure. I realize that there are so many people out there that are so wrapped up in the subculture that for them to leave would devistate them. It is not about seeing right from wrong and making a decision it is about their whole identity being taken from them.

Now, there is one thing in my mind that could start the ball rolling toward change and that would be if the concept of the gospel without Acts 2:38 and then justification by faith started to be preached.

Acts 2:38 will never be taken out of the word of God and should never be taken out of the gospel.

[deltaguitar]

Acts 2:38 will never be taken out of the word of God and should never be taken out of the gospel.

Well, then I don't expect the movement to change much but it may not exists in 25 years. It is already irrelevant.

People at my current church just do not believe that a movement like the UPC really exist even though they do see UPC people out and about. It is so far from what they are able to fathom that they cannot understand the concept.

Recently, a young christian lady told me and my wife that the only thing she new about the UPC church was when she worked at a restaurant that she would wait on the UPC people as a witness to her coworkers. She was trying to shield them from having to deal with them.

[MissBrattified]

I don't know...feels like it's going back in the other direction to me. Maybe it's the district I'm in.

[deltaguitar]

I don't know...feels like it's going back in the other direction to me. Maybe it's the district I'm in.

Do you mean back towards the old paths? I think this is true. There has been a tightening down in the last few years. Things that were not preached are being preached now.

[deacon blues]

There will always be a UPC. I mean, look, the ALJC still exists! I doubt the UPC will ever regain its peak of the 1960s-1980s. There were some opportunities for change and growth that got hijacked by politics, personal vendettas and lack of vision.

First its hierarchical form of government isn't Biblical. The foundation of its structure is built on democracy, voting, politics, etc. What usually surfaces are men who are driven to be elected, versus who is the best person for the job. The leadership structure of the UPC is rife with nepotism, cronyism and corruption. It can't be helped. Human government leads to such.

A courageous examination of scripture to determine the Biblical structure of deacons, elders, bishops, apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers would be the only way to save the UPC from fading into obscurity IMO. Do away with votes and resolutions, paraliamentary procedures, elections, superintendents, prebyters, district boards, etc. Do away with all of the monetary perks of elected offices. HQ should consist only of administrative staff. Leaders should be appointed. Leaders should be selected based upon ministry and the fruit of their labors. There is no need for full-time heads of departments, etc.

The largest Protestant denomination is the Southern Baptist Convention. Did you know that their presidents are not full time and do not reside in an HQ? Charles Stanley pastored one of the largest churches in the SBC and was the president. Same goes for Adrian Rogers.

In 10-15 years the UPC will lighten up on the TV, ball games, bowling, cinemas, etc. issues, but will never discard women's dress standards and shorts on men and jewelry on men. They will always hold to the A238 formula for salvation and their explanation of the Godhead. 100 years from now it will exist but it will always be considered out of the mainstream and a bit cultish.

And a lot of people in the UPC will live for God in sincerity, will have Christ centered lives, will be full of the Spirit and will demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit. They will lead many people to Jesus and they'll go to heaven, albeit in the context of a very flawed system.

[sandie]

There will always be a UPC. I mean, look, the ALJC still exists! I doubt the UPC will ever regain its peak of the 1960s-1980s. There were some opportunities for change and growth that got hijacked by politics, personal vendettas and lack of vision.

First its hierarchical form of government isn't Biblical. The foundation of its structure is built on democracy, voting, politics, etc. What usually surfaces are men who are driven to be elected, versus who is the best person for the job. The leadership structure of the UPC is rife with nepotism, cronyism and corruption. It can't be helped. Human government leads to such.

A courageous examination of scripture to determine the Biblical structure of deacons, elders, bishops, apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers would be the only way to save the UPC from fading into obscurity IMO. Do away with votes and resolutions, paraliamentary procedures, elections, superintendents, prebyters, district boards, etc. Do away with all of the monetary perks of elected offices. HQ should consist only of administrative staff. Leaders should be appointed. Leaders should be selected based upon ministry and the fruit of their labors. There is no need for full-time heads of departments, etc.

The largest Protestant denomination is the Southern Baptist Convention. Did you know that their presidents are not full time and do not reside in an HQ? Charles Stanley pastored one of the largest churches in the SBC and was the president. Same goes for Adrian Rogers.

In 10-15 years the UPC will lighten up on the TV, ball games, bowling, cinemas, etc. issues, but will never discard women's dress standards and shorts on men and jewelry on men. They will always hold to the A238 formula for salvation and their explanation of the Godhead. 100 years from now it will exist but it will always be considered out of the mainstream and a bit cultish.

And a lot of people in the UPC will live for God in sincerity, will have Christ centered lives, will be full of the Spirit and will demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit. They will lead many people to Jesus and they'll go to heaven, albeit in the context of a very flawed system.

Deacon, you have alot of grace and should be commended for it.

:thumbsup

[deacon blues]

Sandie, I have required monumental amounts of grace---I want to reciprocate. The thing is that we who have left the UPC must be vigilant about is that we don't become self-righteous toward what we felt was self-righteous. If you don't forgive, you'll become the very thing you detest.

[deltaguitar]

There will always be a UPC. I mean, look, the ALJC still exists! I doubt the UPC will ever regain its peak of the 1960s-1980s. There were some opportunities for change and growth that got hijacked by politics, personal vendettas and lack of vision.

First its hierarchical form of government isn't Biblical. The foundation of its structure is built on democracy, voting, politics, etc. What usually surfaces are men who are driven to be elected, versus who is the best person for the job. The leadership structure of the UPC is rife with nepotism, cronyism and corruption. It can't be helped. Human government leads to such.

A courageous examination of scripture to determine the Biblical structure of deacons, elders, bishops, apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers would be the only way to save the UPC from fading into obscurity IMO. Do away with votes and resolutions, paraliamentary procedures, elections, superintendents, prebyters, district boards, etc. Do away with all of the monetary perks of elected offices. HQ should consist only of administrative staff. Leaders should be appointed. Leaders should be selected based upon ministry and the fruit of their labors. There is no need for full-time heads of departments, etc.

The largest Protestant denomination is the Southern Baptist Convention. Did you know that their presidents are not full time and do not reside in an HQ? Charles Stanley pastored one of the largest churches in the SBC and was the president. Same goes for Adrian Rogers.

In 10-15 years the UPC will lighten up on the TV, ball games, bowling, cinemas, etc. issues, but will never discard women's dress standards and shorts on men and jewelry on men. They will always hold to the A238 formula for salvation and their explanation of the Godhead. 100 years from now it will exist but it will always be considered out of the mainstream and a bit cultish.

And a lot of people in the UPC will live for God in sincerity, will have Christ centered lives, will be full of the Spirit and will demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit. They will lead many people to Jesus and they'll go to heaven, albeit in the context of a very flawed system.

Good post. I think you are right on everything but the shorts on men. I see many within the movement who serve God with all their heart. I do think that God uses movements like the UPC to bring people to himself but not sure exactly what his end game is because there seems to be so much hard.

DB, aren't you are UPC minister? If so, your honestly is appreciated.

[sandie]

Sandie, I have required monumental amounts of grace---I want to reciprocate. The thing is that we who have left the UPC must be vigilant about is that we don't become self-righteous toward what we felt was self-righteous. If you don't forgive, you'll become the very thing you detest.

Can I ever relate!

I never left the UPC, it looks like the Lord edged me out.

Again, great attitude. God's blessing.

[Sam]

Sandie, I have required monumental amounts of grace---I want to reciprocate. The thing is that we who have left the UPC must be vigilant about is that we don't become self-righteous toward what we felt was self-righteous. If you don't forgive, you'll become the very thing you detest.

:thumbsup:thumbsup

AMEN

[aegsm76]

There will always be a UPC. I mean, look, the ALJC still exists! I doubt the UPC will ever regain its peak of the 1960s-1980s. There were some opportunities for change and growth that got hijacked by politics, personal vendettas and lack of vision.

First its hierarchical form of government isn't Biblical. The foundation of its structure is built on democracy, voting, politics, etc. What usually surfaces are men who are driven to be elected, versus who is the best person for the job. The leadership structure of the UPC is rife with nepotism, cronyism and corruption. It can't be helped. Human government leads to such.

A courageous examination of scripture to determine the Biblical structure of deacons, elders, bishops, apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers would be the only way to save the UPC from fading into obscurity IMO. Do away with votes and resolutions, paraliamentary procedures, elections, superintendents, prebyters, district boards, etc. Do away with all of the monetary perks of elected offices. HQ should consist only of administrative staff. Leaders should be appointed. Leaders should be selected based upon ministry and the fruit of their labors. There is no need for full-time heads of departments, etc.

The largest Protestant denomination is the Southern Baptist Convention. Did you know that their presidents are not full time and do not reside in an HQ? Charles Stanley pastored one of the largest churches in the SBC and was the president. Same goes for Adrian Rogers.

In 10-15 years the UPC will lighten up on the TV, ball games, bowling, cinemas, etc. issues, but will never discard women's dress standards and shorts on men and jewelry on men. They will always hold to the A238 formula for salvation and their explanation of the Godhead. 100 years from now it will exist but it will always be considered out of the mainstream and a bit cultish.

And a lot of people in the UPC will live for God in sincerity, will have Christ centered lives, will be full of the Spirit and will demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit. They will lead many people to Jesus and they'll go to heaven, albeit in the context of a very flawed system.

A good post, but not one I totally agree with!
I do agree with the leadership/government part.

[NotforSale]

There will always be a UPC. I mean, look, the ALJC still exists! I doubt the UPC will ever regain its peak of the 1960s-1980s. There were some opportunities for change and growth that got hijacked by politics, personal vendettas and lack of vision.

First its hierarchical form of government isn't Biblical. The foundation of its structure is built on democracy, voting, politics, etc. What usually surfaces are men who are driven to be elected, versus who is the best person for the job. The leadership structure of the UPC is rife with nepotism, cronyism and corruption. It can't be helped. Human government leads to such.

A courageous examination of scripture to determine the Biblical structure of deacons, elders, bishops, apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers would be the only way to save the UPC from fading into obscurity IMO. Do away with votes and resolutions, paraliamentary procedures, elections, superintendents, prebyters, district boards, etc. Do away with all of the monetary perks of elected offices. HQ should consist only of administrative staff. Leaders should be appointed. Leaders should be selected based upon ministry and the fruit of their labors. There is no need for full-time heads of departments, etc.

The largest Protestant denomination is the Southern Baptist Convention. Did you know that their presidents are not full time and do not reside in an HQ? Charles Stanley pastored one of the largest churches in the SBC and was the president. Same goes for Adrian Rogers.

In 10-15 years the UPC will lighten up on the TV, ball games, bowling, cinemas, etc. issues, but will never discard women's dress standards and shorts on men and jewelry on men. They will always hold to the A238 formula for salvation and their explanation of the Godhead. 100 years from now it will exist but it will always be considered out of the mainstream and a bit cultish.

And a lot of people in the UPC will live for God in sincerity, will have Christ centered lives, will be full of the Spirit and will demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit. They will lead many people to Jesus and they'll go to heaven, albeit in the context of a very flawed system.

As others have said, good post.

I've been in the UPC for 32 years, and have been an ordained minister for the last 16 years. Change is definitely coming and this Organization has been changing for many years already. I don’t think any Religious movement avoids change, good or bad.

From the time I came in during the 70's vs. now, the UPCI is far different than back then. I've watched the TV issue, modesty guidelines, divorce, music, and involvement in sports (all of these and more) evolve. There is way more tolerance, and the radical UC's of yesterday are deeply criticized.

I personally see the UPCI as more of a Big Business operation, and this became more relevant when the financial balloon popped during this last Recession. I recently attended a District meeting, and the ORG is over 10 million in debt.

The scrambling for money and the killing of the Sacred Cow, Harvestime, is proof that funds are more than tight. They've outsourced PPH, have laid off scores of people, and the begging for money continues. The last PH was full of monetary information and many are tired of the constant offering agendas.

[Sam]

"I am not afraid that the people called Methodists should ever cease to exist either in Europe or America. But I am afraid lest they should only exist as a dead sect, having the form of religion without the power. And this undoubtedly will be the case unless they hold fast both the doctrine, spirit, and discipline with which they first set out.” attributed to John Wesley

How long has there been a group/organization/denomination called "Methodist"?

How does the political structure of the United Methodist Church today compare to the way it was organized in the days of the Wesley brothers?

How do the "Methodists" live today compared to how they lived while the Wesley Brothers were preaching?

Do we still have "shouting Methodists"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Morvoko9ak

[Jermyn Davidson]

Sandie, I have required monumental amounts of grace---I want to reciprocate. The thing is that we who have left the UPC must be vigilant about is that we don't become self-righteous toward what we felt was self-righteous. If you don't forgive, you'll become the very thing you detest.

You are an inspiration to me and have been since I met you.

[pelathais]

We have two UPC churches within 8 miles of each other. One is considered liberal the other moderate. Many from the liberal have left and started going to the moderate church over the past year. Most of those that have switched to the moderate are 18 to 50 in age range. The pastor of the moderate church made (what I thought ) was an interesting statement in a wenesday night service a couple weeks ago. It went something like this:

"I don't care what standards or teachings I have lived by years ago, they have changed, they will change again over the next 5, 10, or 20 years, all I care about is whether I'm standing in the word of God."

What is it about the "liberal church" that makes them so "liberal?" Around here, the statement:

"I don't care what standards or teachings I have lived by years ago, they have changed, they will change again over the next 5, 10, or 20 years..."

... would get that pastor labeled and the "Big Time Lib" and not a "moderate" at all. But then again, maybe that was 10 years ago, too. :lol

[pelathais]

Sandie, I have required monumental amounts of grace---I want to reciprocate. The thing is that we who have left the UPC must be vigilant about is that we don't become self-righteous toward what we felt was self-righteous. If you don't forgive, you'll become the very thing you detest.

:thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup

[Jimmyjay]

It is no lie that the UPCI is going through a huge demographic change at the moment, along with various other changes. I was recently told, by someone whom I trust and look up to, that in ten years time (2021), the United Pentecostal Church International will look very different. I'm trying to wrap my brain around what changes might take place. What do you think?

I believe God's church will be with him by 2015, Just mine.

[crakjak]

They have to do something. The fact that more people leave than are coming in has been a fact for decades. We're not even treading water here.

Does anyone remember that video of DKB and HM director Coon where they talked about how since the UPC was unable to retain those who are brought up in the movement, they must focus on those on the "outside" coming in?

It says a lot about the condition of an org when they are willing to sacrifice their own children to Molech because it's "easier" than being honest with them.

This is symptomatic of serious decline, which most older denominations have/are experiencing.

[scotty]

What is it about the "liberal church" that makes them so "liberal?" Around here, the statement:

"I don't care what standards or teachings I have lived by years ago, they have changed, they will change again over the next 5, 10, or 20 years..."

... would get that pastor labeled and the "Big Time Lib" and not a "moderate" at all. But then again, maybe that was 10 years ago, too. :lol

The "liberal" church seems to have moved away from most teachings of the UPC. One step salvation, no modesty teachings at all, most women come to church in outfits that would make a southern baptist blush. Those leaving say its pretty much live how you want to live, there is no guide in the pastors teaching. He seems to be all over the board in an attempt to hold on to conservatives and liberals alike. He preaches happy, joyful, better yourself messages while avoiding salvational or doctrinal teachings all together.

Your right about the statement, it kinda floored me coming from a conservative background yet at the same time I was glad to hear him say it.

[deltaguitar]

The "liberal" church seems to have moved away from most teachings of the UPC. One step salvation, no modesty teachings at all, most women come to church in outfits that would make a southern baptist blush. Those leaving say its pretty much live how you want to live, there is no guide in the pastors teaching. He seems to be all over the board in an attempt to hold on to conservatives and liberals alike. He preaches happy, joyful, better yourself messages while avoiding salvational or doctrinal teachings all together.

Your right about the statement, it kinda floored me coming from a conservative background yet at the same time I was glad to hear him say it.

This is typical of many who leave the UPC to become "charismatic". This is documented by the former UPC minister Bernie Gellespie. Many who leave jump way over into license and head down the path to sin. Others just drop the standards and the gossip is so bad that people just think there is a lot of sin going on.

[onefaith2]

This is typical of many who leave the UPC to become "charismatic". This is documented by the former UPC minister Bernie Gellespie. Many who leave jump way over into license and head down the path to sin. Others just drop the standards and the gossip is so bad that people just think there is a lot of sin going on.

Do you think those in Global and AWCF are like that? The only think I'm seeing mostly is standards drop but a compromise on who could be saved and lost usually is also present, at least somewhat.

I'm glad there are good middle road men still in the UPC.

[deltaguitar]

Do you think those in Global and AWCF are like that? The only think I'm seeing mostly is standards drop but a compromise on who could be saved and lost usually is also present, at least somewhat.

I'm glad there are good middle road men still in the UPC.

No I do not think that. But the perception is that there are many who are just leaving so they can sin.