The Switching

[Truth Files]

A switching between an historic overview and the specific time of the end of this present age during the 70th week decreed for Israel, the Lord and Satan

Revelation
12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven [portent]; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

This is the nation of Israel from its beginnings and over time into the future [Genesis 37:9]

12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

This is Israel in the first century at the Lord’s first advent

12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

This is Satan from his beginnings viewed over a vast period of time and his ruling [through his beast Abaddon-Apollyon over human kings and their Middle Eastern kingdoms

12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth [at his rebellion long long ago]: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born [this is Satan in the first century].

12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne [this is Jesus caught up in the first century].

12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. [Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-16]

This is the believing remnant part of Israel in the land at the time of the end during the 70th week

12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

This setting is at the beginning of the 70th week decreed for Israel [Daniel 12:1]

12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out [Revelation 6:13; 8:10; 9:1] with him.

No more access to heaven for Satan and his fallen ones; they will be cast out and confined to the earth during the 70th week

12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

This is Satan’s casting to the earth at the time of the end; his position of the “god” of this world of this present age is about to be terminated just after his rant on the earth during the 70th week decreed [Revelation 20:1-3]

“Our brethren” here refers to the believing part of Israel of the past and at the time of the end [all of Israel who have followed the Lord in the past and will at the time of the end]

This voice is coming from the midst of the immortal pre-tribulation church [the Lord] observing the tribulation period on the earth

12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

All of the martyrs of the believing remnant part of Israel, both of the past and at the time of the end of this present age

12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rejoice immortal pretribulation church [Revelation 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17], but woe unto the inhabiters of the earth at Satan’s casting there at the time of the end during the 70th week [Psalms 2; Matthew 24:36-39; 1Thessalonians 5:3]

12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. [Ezekiel 38; Daniel 11:41; Revelation 11:2]

Satan and his confederation will attack and occupy Israel at the middle of the 70th week decreed

12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle [Symbolic of the Lord], that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time [last 1260 days of the tribulation period], from the face of the serpent. [Zechariah 14:4-5; Matthew 24:15-15; Revelation 11:2-3]

This is the beliving remnant part of Israel in the land who will flee at the middle of the 70th week for protection from Satan

12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

Satan’s angelic and human armies will pursue them but will not be able to reach them

12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. [Zechariah 14:4-5]

12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is the believing remnant part of Israel still residing in the nations that Satan will pursue when he is prevented from those who flee Israel [Luke 21:21]

[seekerman]

The 70th week of Daniel is over, gone, done with....2000 years ago.

[Bowas]

The 70th week of Daniel is over, gone, done with....2000 years ago.

Agreed. So much written about something that is past as though it is future.
Forever learning...:)

[seekerman]

Correctly understanding the 70th week of Daniel was the beginning of the end of futurism for me.

[Bowas]

Correctly understanding the 70th week of Daniel was the beginning of the end of futurism for me.

Tradition and pride has hindered so many for "searching for MORE truth"

[Falla39]

If my late parents were to awake from their sleep, there are many things that have
happened that they would not know had happened since they have been asleep. Perhaps
many have been asleep and have not been awakened yet! Just a thought!

2 Peter 3:4 "And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.

The Jews were spiritually asleep, (their eyes were blinded by unbelief when the Messiah came the first time. Many still don't
believe He came. Many then and even now didn't know He came (in another form) at
Pentecost.

Hey, WAKE UP, CHURCH!!

Oh, say but I'm glad, I'm glad,
Oh, say but I'm glad, I glad.
Jesus has come and my cup's overrun
Oh, say but I'm glad!!

Luke 17:21 "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 14:17 "For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Still asleep!

Falla39

[acerrak]

If my late parents were to awake from their sleep, there are many things that have
happened that they would not know had happened since they have been asleep. Perhaps
many have been asleep and have not been awakened yet! Just a thought!

2 Peter 3:4 "And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.

The Jews were spiritually asleep, (their eyes were blinded by unbelief when the Messiah came the first time. Many still don't
believe He came. Many then and even now didn't know He came (in another form) at
Pentecost.

Hey, WAKE UP, CHURCH!!

Oh, say but I'm glad, I'm glad,
Oh, say but I'm glad, I glad.
Jesus has come and my cup's overrun
Oh, say but I'm glad!!

Luke 17:21 "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 14:17 "For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Still asleep!

Falla39

The Spirit came at pentacost this was not however the second comming that is spoke of in acts chapter 1. They were told to wait on the Spirit, Jesus did not say go and wait on Jesus to come. and the angels specifically stated that the way he left he will return.

That did not happen at pentacost.

However i believe the Holy Spirit is both the father and the Spirit of Christ in One, cause there is refference to both throughout the scriptures.

[Falla39]

The Spirit came at pentacost this was not however the second comming that is spoke of in acts chapter 1. They were told to wait on the Spirit, Jesus did not say go and wait on Jesus to come. and the angels specifically stated that the way he left he will return.

That did not happen at pentacost.

However i believe the Holy Spirit is both the father and the Spirit of Christ in One, cause there is refference to both throughout the scriptures.

John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient (necessary) for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

If Jesus comes back in person, will the Comforter (Holy Ghost/Spirit) have to leave us!

[acerrak]

John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient (necessary) for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

If Jesus comes back in person, will the Comforter (Holy Ghost/Spirit) have to leave us!

when he comes back in person he takes the Holy ghost and everyone who is filled with it. The world will be destroyed and a new heaven and earth will be made.

So no he doesnt take the Holy ghost away from you, he removes you from this world.

and there is No (if) sister, the bible clearly teaches it. He will come back just like He said.

john 14:3

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

New Living Translation (©2007)
When everything is ready, I will come and get you, so that you will always be with me where I am

look at these verses

After he said this, while they were watching, he was taken up, and a cloud hid him from sight. While they were intently staring into the sky as he went -- Look! two men in white clothing stood by them. They said, "Men of Galilee, why are you standing looking into the sky? The same Jesus, who was taken from you into heaven, will come in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

has then been fullfilled Fella, Has Jesus came back in the same way?

[mfblume]

Acerrak, John 14 is not talking about resurrection and going to heaven to mansions. The word for MANSIONS is MONE. It is the same word used later in the same chapter that speaks about the Father and Son making their MONE (ABODE) in us. Notice also that Jesus said where He was when he was speaking, with them standing right there, is where we shall be. And the Father's House is His own body, since He said the Father dwelt in Him. WE BECOME the Father's mansions (rooms) because Christ went to the cross (I GO TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU).

I believe in the resurrection yet to come. But we were not created to die and go to heaven forever. The resurrection will see us return to earth and rule here forever.

Just some thoughts.

[mfblume]

Correctly understanding the 70th week of Daniel was the beginning of the end of futurism for me.

Amen.

[acerrak]

Acerrak, John 14 is not talking about resurrection and going to heaven to mansions. The word for MANSIONS is MONE. It is the same word used later in the same chapter that speaks about the Father and Son making their MONE (ABODE) in us. Notice also that Jesus said where He was when he was speaking, with them standing right there, is where we shall be. And the Father's House is His own body, since He said the Father dwelt in Him. WE BECOME the Father's mansions (rooms) because Christ went to the cross (I GO TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU).

I believe in the resurrection yet to come. But we were not created to die and go to heaven forever. The resurrection will see us return to earth and rule here forever.

Just some thoughts.

on the new earth,,

edit
and a more correct interpretation in my fathers house is many rooms, but i however do not agree with your current exegesis. He was Leaving and He wanted His disciples to be with Him where he goes.

Though we Paul uses the term Body of believers and we sure are in Christ, I dont believe its present on how you have depicted this certain verse.

There is a new city that will be on the New earth and truely believe that will be our Home with God.

[mfblume]

on the new earth,,

edit
and a more correct interpretation in my fathers house is many rooms, but i however do not agree with your current exegesis. He was Leaving and He wanted His disciples to be with Him where he goes.


Actually that is not what he said. He said that where he then was is where they would be, not where He was going.


Though we Paul uses the term Body of believers and we sure are in Christ, I dont believe its present on how you have depicted this certain verse.

There is a new city that will be on the New earth and truely believe that will be our Home with God.

The city is soething we have already come. Heb 12:22. The city is a picture of the bride, the church. Isaiah foretold we would be a city not forsaken. The people. Seeing Heb 12:22 says we are alredy come to the city, wee need to interpret Revelation by such words.

[mfblume]

Consider Isa 51:16 in regards to new earth.

16 And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

Note the creation language used in referring to a making of a people into His people. THese are the interpretations provided for us in the bible re. Revelation.

[acerrak]

i do not believe that we are living on a new earth, for the old heaven and earth shall pass away. tat has not happened i dont believe it to be spiritual.

i do believe that there will be a new earth created and a new heaven with the new city comming out of it.

all of those may have some meaning to it, but i dont believe it has been fullfilled.

[Truth Files]

You are correct acerrak

[Revelation 20:9-11; 21:1-7]

2Peter
3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers [historical preterism], walking after their own lusts,

3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

[Bowas]

You are correct acerrak

[Revelation 20:9-11; 21:1-7]

2Peter
3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers [historical preterism], walking after their own lusts,

3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

In your studies, what are "the elements" referred to here? You have studied it, yes?

[Truth Files]

"In your studies, what are "the elements" referred to here?"

This passage of scripture does not give enough information to be certain as to what the "elements" specifically are, but I would suggest #3 ..... components of the heavenly bodies of the Lord's creation including the earth

A renovation by fire is most likely the Lord's intent .... the basis for the restoration of His universe using the same heavenly bodies to the original creation

Lexicon Results Strong's G4747 - stoicheion στοιχεῖον
Transliteration
stoicheion
Pronunciation
stoi-khā'-on (Key)
Part of Speech
neuter noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From a presumed derivative of the base of στοιχέω (G4748)

TDNT Reference
7:670,1087
Vines
View Entry

Outline of Biblical Usage 1) any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal

1. the letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters, but the spoken sounds

2. the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe

3. the heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens or (as others think) because in them the elements of man, life and destiny were supposed to reside

4. the elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of any art, science, or discipline

The main theme of the passage involves those who teach that the Lord does not and will not intervene to cause instantanious and catastrophic great changes of His creation .... and therefore no judgment is coming

[Bowas]

"In your studies, what are "the elements" referred to here?"

This passage of scripture does not give enough information to be certain as to what the "elements" specifically are, but I would suggest #3 ..... components of the heavenly bodies of the Lord's creation including the earth

A renovation by fire is most likely the Lord's intent .... the basis for the restoration of His universe using the same heavenly bodies to the original creation

Lexicon Results Strong's G4747 - stoicheion στοιχεῖον
Transliteration
stoicheion
Pronunciation
stoi-khā'-on (Key)
Part of Speech
neuter noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From a presumed derivative of the base of στοιχέω (G4748)

TDNT Reference
7:670,1087
Vines
View Entry

Outline of Biblical Usage 1) any first thing, from which the others belonging to some series or composite whole take their rise, an element, first principal

1. the letters of the alphabet as the elements of speech, not however the written characters, but the spoken sounds

2. the elements from which all things have come, the material causes of the universe

3. the heavenly bodies, either as parts of the heavens or (as others think) because in them the elements of man, life and destiny were supposed to reside

4. the elements, rudiments, primary and fundamental principles of any art, science, or discipline

The main theme of the passage involves those who teach that the Lord does not and will not intervene to cause instantanious and catastrophic great changes of His creation .... and therefore no judgment is coming

Ok, I will try to simplify this a bit. Do a simple study in the Bible and see where this exact word was used elsewhere in the Bible, then apply it here and it will become a bit less convoluted and makes more sense.
It may surprise you.

[Truth Files]

I am satisfied with the Lord's intend to renovate His original creation for eternity

And I see you attempting to create a diversion from the subject of the OP

One that I have no interest in

Not only that, but you also move away from the substance of 2Peter 3 because these verses expose preterism for what it is

You are following and using the same historical allegory of Augustine and Oriegn [the fathers of the RCC] .... and your contemporary mentors have dressed this up in a new package [a totally bankrupt theology without hope spread about by the likes of Hanegraaff, Demar, MacPherson ..............]

..... "since the fathers fell asleep all continues" with no future intervention from the Lord

"Where is the promise of His coming?" .... the cry of the preterist who says He is not

.... a "kingdom now" theology that steals the Lord's coming millennial kingdom on the earth

Only those who lack adequate knowledge of the scriptures are vulnerable to the clutches of preterism

[Bowas]

Ok, I will try to simplify this a bit. Do a simple study in the Bible and see where this exact word was used elsewhere in the Bible, then apply it here and it will become a bit less convoluted and makes more sense.
It may surprise you.

I am satisfied with the Lord's intend to renovate His original creation for eternity

And I see you attempting to create a diversion from the subject of the OP

One that I have no interest in

Not only that, but you also move away from the substance of 2Peter 3 because these verses expose preterism for what it is

You are following and using the same historical allegory of Augustine and Oriegn [the fathers of the RCC] .... and your contemporary mentors have dressed this up in a new package [a totally bankrupt theology without hope spread about by the likes of Hanegraaff, Demar, MacPherson ..............]

..... "since the fathers fell asleep all continues" with no future intervention from the Lord

"Where is the promise of His coming?" .... the cry of the preterist who says He is not

.... a "kingdom now" theology that steals the Lord's coming millennial kingdom on the earth

Only those who lack adequate knowledge of the scriptures are vulnerable to the clutches of preterism

So I take it you refuse to search the scripture to see if what you are claiming is consistant with prior usesages of the same word?
There is nothing wrong to add to ones understanding of scripture, even if it means correction.

[Truth Files]

"So I take it you refuse to search the scripture"

Extreme presumption .... and a debating tactic

Your out of context selection of subject is an obvious diversion as you attempt change the game .... you avoid the contextual subject because you cannot get around it without exposing your preteristic views

Stick to the overall subject of Peter's teaching

Believe me I know what you are doing .... trolling the posts of others for the purpose of spreading preterist doctrine is your obvious motive

If you want to teach preterism start your own posts instead of attaching to the writings of others ..... let them stand on their own .... and learn to respect other views at least to the extent of agreeing to disagree

If you do not agree with the views of others you do not have to read them

Your behavior tells me that you are out to push your views on others by argumentation and debate .... this does not reflect the work of the believer in Jesus Christ

What you do gains nothing for the cause of Christ, but only to satisfy your own lack of confidence in what you say you believe .... which is exactly why you do it

[Bowas]

Ok, I will try to simplify this a bit. Do a simple study in the Bible and see where this exact word was used elsewhere in the Bible, then apply it here and it will become a bit less convoluted and makes more sense.
It may surprise you.

So I take it you refuse to search the scripture to see if what you are claiming is consistant with prior usesages of the same word?
There is nothing wrong to add to ones understanding of scripture, even if it means correction.

But your selection is an obvious diversion as you change the game

Stick to the subject

Believe me I know what you are doing .... trolling the posts of others for the purpose of spreading preterist doctrine is your obvious motive

If you want to teach preterism start your own posts instead of attaching to the writings of others ..... let them stand on their own .... and learn to respect other views at least to the extent of agreeing to disagree

If you do not agree with the views of others you do not have to read them

Your behavior tells me that you are out to push your views on others by argumentation and debate .... this does not reflect the work of the believer in Jesus Christ

What you do gains nothing for the cause of Christ, but only to satisfy your own lack of confidence in what you say you believe .... which is exactly why you do it

Oh well. I see you refuse to do a quick and simple little study to see if your thoughts on the phrase, "the elements" has the same biblical definition as the one you claim. It is not off subjet of the verse you posted.
I do respect others views, and I do not push my views on others. I simply thought you were a studier and would be able to see how the term "elements" were used in the New testament, but you apparently do not care to explore the word.
Lord Bless you.

[Truth Files]

"Oh well. I see you refuse to do a quick and simple little study"

>There you go again

>Why don't you start a thread on the "element" study instead of using it as a diversion from the subject at hand in this case?

>If you do, I will consider a discussion on the subject to see where you are going with it

>Your argument regarding one's refusal to entertain you is as old as preterism ..... a favorite of those who reside in your camp

[mfblume]

i do not believe that we are living on a new earth, for the old heaven and earth shall pass away. tat has not happened i dont believe it to be spiritual.

i do believe that there will be a new earth created and a new heaven with the new city comming out of it.

all of those may have some meaning to it, but i dont believe it has been fullfilled.

I am not dogmatic about this. But I do believe there is often, maybe not all the time, allusion to COVENANT PEOPLE when referring to Heaven and earth. Adam Clarke once noted that things in heaven and earth reconciled in one body of Christ in Eph. 1 may refer to Jews and Gentiles. Jews being heaven since their entire culture and government was from heaven and directed by God, while Gentiles would be the earth. And Ephesians reads onward with that very note in mind in chapter 2.

I am just saying there are statements in the bible that use creative language and should be considered. Even 2 Cor 5 speaks of NEW CREATION in referring to the believers, even using the term OLD THINGS PASSED AWAY AND ALL ARE BECOME NEW.


2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature (Gr. lit. CREATION): old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Revelation 21:1 KJV And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Revelation 21:4-5 KJV And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

It may be literal, but it may not. Why would you refuse a spiritual thought? Rev 22 shows the LAMB on the throne after sitting there earlier in Rev, with a river of life coming from it, and Peter said in Acts 2 the SPIRIT (rivers of living water) were SHED FORTH (river language in Gr.) because Jesus sat on the throne (the lamb).

Then Rev 22 ends by saying that river was there THEN in John's day for anyone to come and drink if they are thirsty.


Revelation 22:17 KJV And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

John 7:37-39 KJV In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. (38) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (39) (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Bible interprets bible.

[acerrak]

what i have is book of hebrews target audience. which was attended for jews who were leaving christianity heading back to the losaic law and old covenant.

So he makes many comparisons to the old and new, and alot of what he discusses is spiritual.

He shows them how good the old covenant was, and how it is waxing away, and he shows them how greater the new covenant is with Jesus.

He uses so many shadows from the past to draw comparisons, the author wa sa biblical scholar at heart. He was also dealing with specific things happening back in there day.


such as worshipping of angels, which came from the pharasees, stating renounce jesus and state he was angel or prophet of God and we will let you back in.

so he goes into great detail, and i view this verse in hebrews only as a comparison, not as the literal one that will come one day, after judgment. Judgment has not been given so the city has not come yet.

you also have told me your self that every thing up to chapter 20 has been fullfilled but the rest has not this is the start of 21 the new heaven and new earth.

thought it is considered to be the bride of the lamb the new jeruslaem i believe the redeemed are in it

that is just my thoughts

[mfblume]

what i have is book of hebrews target audience. which was attended for jews who were leaving christianity heading back to the losaic law and old covenant.

So he makes many comparisons to the old and new, and alot of what he discusses is spiritual.

He shows them how good the old covenant was, and how it is waxing away, and he shows them how greater the new covenant is with Jesus.

He uses so many shadows from the past to draw comparisons, the author wa sa biblical scholar at heart. He was also dealing with specific things happening back in there day.


such as worshipping of angels, which came from the pharasees, stating renounce jesus and state he was angel or prophet of God and we will let you back in.

so he goes into great detail, and i view this verse in hebrews only as a comparison, not as the literal one that will come one day, after judgment. Judgment has not been given so the city has not come yet.

you also have told me your self that every thing up to chapter 20 has been fullfilled but the rest has not this is the start of 21 the new heaven and new earth.

thought it is considered to be the bride of the lamb the new jeruslaem i believe the redeemed are in it

that is just my thoughts

I see Rev 21-22 as unfulfilled yet, but not that any of it is not here in embryonic form, though. I see the CITY being the people, not an actual city, and FINISHED when judgment comes. And the same river we drink from now, the Spirit, will forever continue after judgment. Still figurative and not literal by any means, though.

[Truth Files]

The switching continued .....

The past rule of Abaddon-Apollyon ..... and his future return to rule again:

Revelation
17:8 The beast that thou sawest was ruling in the ancient past], and is not [was not ruling in the first century .... and still is not]; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit [at the time of the end of this present age to rule again [Revelation 9:1; 9:11, 11:7]] , and go into perdition [his destruction [Revelation 19:20]]: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. [this angelic beast rules over 7 Middle Eastern kingdoms for Satan ..... 5 have fallen .... 2 will follow at the time of the end of this present age]

17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads [kingdoms of the Middle East] are seven mountains, on which the woman [the great city part of MBG [lost humanity]], sitteth [this great city of the gentiles is dominating the beast's kingdom of the Middle East] [Revelation 17:16-18; 18:1-21].

17:10 And there are seven kings [human king positions of the beast's kingdoms]: five are fallen [neo-Babylon [lion], Media-Persia [bear], Alexander-Syrio/Babylonia [leopard]] [Daniel 7:3-7; Revelation 13:1-4], and one is [at the beginning of the time of the end of this present age .... the smaller kingdom; Daniel 8:9], and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh [the beast], he must continue a short space. [Revelation 11:2; 11:7; 13:5]

17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth [will fully possess the little horn of Daniel's visions [Daniel 8:9-12; 23-25; 9:26-27; 11:36-45; 12:7]; and become the 8th king himself .... the combination of a human king and fallen angel], and is of the seven [rules over all of the 7 human kingdoms and related king positions], and goeth into perdition [to his destruction [Daniel 11:45; Revelation 19:20]].

17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings [Daniel 7:7-8], which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour [a short period of 42 months [Revelation 11:2; 13:5] with the beast.

17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. [Revelation 19:11-21]

[Godsdrummer]

"Oh well. I see you refuse to do a quick and simple little study"

>There you go again

>Why don't you start a thread on the "element" study instead of using it as a diversion from the subject at hand in this case?

>If you do, I will consider a discussion on the subject to see where you are going with it

>Your argument regarding one's refusal to entertain you is as old as preterism ..... a favorite of those who reside in your camp

Reading you go back and forth with Bowas I see one thing, you take the idea that you have the only answers and refuse to consider others thoughts. This in the face of scripture that exhorts us as individuals to search out our own salvation with fear and trembling. This is a discusion forum last time I check not a place to preach your personal doctrine with out discusion or debate. Or maybe you don't teach the passage that say, "contend for the faith".

The fact of the matter is you are the one that refuses to interain any idea other than your own.

Let me ask you this maybe you can give me a strait answer. If the sacrifice of Christ was the supreme sacrifice for all time. and now God dwells in temples not made with hands. How pray tell will the building of another temple by the Jews cause God to look favorably upon them? And how can a supposed anti-christ become an abomination buy profaining said temple. As God does and will not recognize any temple built by man as a holy place?

The holy place in and forever within the hearts of spirit filled men/women.

[Falla39]

Reading you go back and forth with Bowas I see one thing, you take the idea that you have the only answers and refuse to consider others thoughts. This in the face of scripture that exhorts us as individuals to search out our own salvation with fear and trembling. This is a discusion forum last time I check not a place to preach your personal doctrine with out discusion or debate. Or maybe you don't teach the passage that say, "contend for the faith".

The fact of the matter is you are the one that refuses to interain any idea other than your own.

Let me ask you this maybe you can give me a strait answer. If the sacrifice of Christ was the supreme sacrifice for all time. and now God dwells in temples not made with hands. How pray tell will the building of another temple by the Jews cause God to look favorably upon them? And how can a supposed anti-christ become an abomination buy profaining said temple. As God does and will not recognize any temple built by man as a holy place?

The holy place in and forever within the hearts of spirit filled men/women.

AMEN!!!:highfive

Falla39

[Truth Files]

"How pray tell will the building of another temple by the Jews cause God to look favorably upon them? And how can a supposed anti-christ become an abomination buy profaining said temple. As God does and will not recognize any temple built by man as a holy place?"

>There will be no tribulation temple on the temple mount [the holy place]

>The Lord said there would not be one stone left standing at the time of the end .... and there still is not .... no tribulation temple

>This teaching is false and a favorite of some of the fundamental sects of professing christianity

>There are no instructions to build a tribulation temple and there would be if it was to happen

>In fact Revelation 11:2 plainly states "the court "without" the temple"

>The Lord's temple is currently in heaven and not on the earth, and true during the coming tribulation period

>Satan's beast in the little horn will sit in a temple of "his" god during the tribulation period .... not one of the Lord's .... and this temple is already on the temple mount today

>However, there will be a temple built for the Lord's coming millennial kingdom on the earth just after the tribulation period [Ezekiel 40-48]

[acerrak]

"How pray tell will the building of another temple by the Jews cause God to look favorably upon them? And how can a supposed anti-christ become an abomination buy profaining said temple. As God does and will not recognize any temple built by man as a holy place?"

>There will be no tribulation temple on the temple mount [the holy place]

>The Lord said there would not be one stone left standing at the time of the end .... and there still is not .... no tribulation temple

>This teaching is false and a favorite of some of the fundamental sects of professing christianity

>There are no instructions to build a tribulation temple and there would be if it was to happen

>In fact Revelation 11:2 plainly states "the court "without" the temple"

>The Lord's temple is currently in heaven and not on the earth, and true during the coming tribulation period

>Satan's beast in the little horn will sit in a temple of "his" god during the tribulation period .... not one of the Lord's .... and this temple is already on the temple mount today

>However, there will be a temple built for the Lord's coming millennial kingdom on the earth just after the tribulation period [Ezekiel 40-48]

so do you believe that the one israel has been in preparation to build is the said temple of the beast in revelations? since again they have already gathered material to build, and sacrificed a red heffer to commition it?

[seekerman]

There will never be another God ordained temple in Jerusalem, there's no need for it.

The antichrist jews in antichrist israel may attempt to build a temple because of their rejection of Jesus though.

[Godsdrummer]

"How pray tell will the building of another temple by the Jews cause God to look favorably upon them? And how can a supposed anti-christ become an abomination buy profaining said temple. As God does and will not recognize any temple built by man as a holy place?"

>There will be no tribulation temple on the temple mount [the holy place]

>The Lord said there would not be one stone left standing at the time of the end .... and there still is not .... no tribulation temple

>This teaching is false and a favorite of some of the fundamental sects of professing christianity

>There are no instructions to build a tribulation temple and there would be if it was to happen

>In fact Revelation 11:2 plainly states "the court "without" the temple"

>The Lord's temple is currently in heaven and not on the earth, and true during the coming tribulation period

>Satan's beast in the little horn will sit in a temple of "his" god during the tribulation period .... not one of the Lord's .... and this temple is already on the temple mount today

>However, there will be a temple built for the Lord's coming millennial kingdom on the earth just after the tribulation period [Ezekiel 40-48]

Wow

No tribulation temple than what pray tell me will be the abomination of desolation futrist teach is going to happen in said "tribulation" and what is the covenant that will be made and broken by the so called anti-christ?

[Falla39]

Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are writtenmay be fulfilled.

Who was Jesus talking to! He was talking to his disciples. To those that were living in his generation. Jesus said also that that generation wouldnot pass away until all things be fulfilled. Luke 21:32

Jerusalem was surrounded by the armies that met together with the Roman armies, and came against Jerusalem. Those that remembered Jesus words, fled to the mountains and not one perished. They were the ones who would take the gospel to the ends of the earth.

Jerusalem knew not the day of her visitation.

HE visited the town where my late grandparents lived in 1933. Those who heard, believed and obeyed the words of an old white haired preacher, received salvation. Many heard but few believed and obeyed. The years have shown the folly of not obeying the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who heard, believed and obeyed have lived lives filled with the blessings of the LORD.

Falla39

[seekerman]

Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are writtenmay be fulfilled.

Who was Jesus talking to! He was talking to his disciples. To those that were living in his generation. Jesus said also that that generation wouldnot pass away until all things be fulfilled. Luke 21:32

Jerusalem was surrounded by the armies that met together with the Roman armies, and came against Jerusalem. Those that remembered Jesus words, fled to the mountains and not one perished. They were the ones who would take the gospel to the ends of the earth.

Jerusalem knew not the day of her visitation.

HE visited the town where my late grandparents lived in 1933. Those who heard, believed and obeyed the words of an old white haired preacher, received salvation. Many heard but few believed and obeyed. The years have shown the folly of not obeying the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who heard, believed and obeyed have lived lives filled with the blessings of the LORD.

Falla39

You're a preterist, falla?

[Falla39]

You're a preterist, falla?


I am a Christian, seekerman! What are you!

[seekerman]

I am a Christian, seekerman! What are you!

A one God, holy ghost filled, tongue talking, born again christian who believes the preterist position of eschatology.

Now, again, are you a preterist? :)

[Falla39]

Seekerman,
I am a Bible believing, praying lady who believes that there are things that men teach,
and there are other things which the Holy Ghost teaches. I have learned from both!
After we have received the Holy Ghost (the Spirit of Truth), if we walk in the Spirit, HE
will lead and guide us into all truth. That is what I depend on! The Spirit of TRUTH! If
that is what you call a preterist, then so be it! I don't really care for labels myself.

Falla39

[mfblume]

You're a preterist, falla?

Yes she is. She simply does not like labels. But her beliefs are more full preterist. She's a great lady of God, though I disagree with full preterism.

[Falla39]

Yes she is. She simply does not like labels. But her beliefs are more full preterist. She's a great lady of God, though I disagree with full preterism.

Bro. Blume,
What beliefs do I have that makes you think I would be considered more of
a full preterist! I am on a journey and have not yet arrived. The things I see
and hear, I must depend on the Holy Ghost to illuminate my understanding. I
don't trust my own understanding. I look to him for full illumination! Until then,
I will ..

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Prov. 3:5,6

Falla39

[mfblume]

Bro. Blume,
What beliefs do I have that makes you think I would be considered more of
a full preterist! I am on a journey and have not yet arrived. The things I see
and hear, I must depend on the Holy Ghost to illuminate my understanding. I
don't trust my own understanding. I look to him for full illumination! Until then,
I will ..

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Prov. 3:5,6

Falla39

We already discussed this. You believe Jesus will not return physically in a physical body with which He resurrected from the grave. And you believe we will not physically resurrect from the graves in one great big resurrection in the future when our actual bodies of arms and legs will be made immortal and remain physical. Those are full preterist teachings. No other group believes that except full preterists. No offense intended. It is just that your beliefs are full preterist, whether you change them later or not in your journey.

[Truth Files]

"No tribulation temple than what pray tell me will be the abomination of desolation futrist teach is going to happen in said "tribulation" and what is the covenant that will be made and broken by the so called anti-christ?"


The abomination of desolation will be "set up" [Daniel 12:11; Matthew 24:15-16] on the temple mount when satan's beast and his followers invade and occupy Israel at the middle of the 70th week decreed for the nation .... these will be the Muslims [Psalms 83; Ezekiel 36:1-3; 38; Micah 5:4-5] of the Middle East

The scriptures do not specifically tell what this abomination will be, but I would suggest that it will be connected with the identification of the beast and his presence in the little horn of Daniel's visions [a human king of the northern Middle East] who will sit in the temple of "his" god ..... Satan's lawless one [2thessalonians 2:2-12]

When the believing remnant part of Israel see this setting of the abomination they will flee into the Jordanian wilderness for protection by the Lord [Zechariah 14:4-5; Mathew 24:15-16; Revelation 12:6; 12:14

There is no "covenant" contrived and or broken by the "other prince" [Satan's beast in the little horn]

It is the Lord who will confirm the covenant [Jeremiah 31:31-37] that He has with a believing remnant part of Israel [the "many"] during the 70th week decreed for the nation

The idea that this covenant is some sort of peace treaty between Israel and the beast is a ruse .... not true .... total speculation

The Lord is the first "He" in 9:27 .... the beast is the second "he" in the verse [9:27 is a repeating of 9:26]

Only the Lord can confirm this covenant .... the other prince cannot .... and would not

..... this "anti-christ" will confirm nothing, or will he break anything, but he will successfully invade and occupy Israel for 42 months [second 1260 days of the 70th week decreed for Israel] [Ezekiel 38; Daniel 11:41; 12:7; Revelation 11:2; 13:5]

[Falla39]

We already discussed this. You believe Jesus will not return physically in a physical body with which He resurrected from the grave. And you believe we will not physically resurrect from the graves in one great big resurrection in the future when our actual bodies of arms and legs will be made immortal and remain physical. Those are full preterist teachings. No other group believes that except full preterists. No offense intended. It is just that your beliefs are full preterist, whether you change them later or not in your journey.

Bro. Blume,
There are some things I have not seen clearly yet. Those are the things I
will trust God to open my eyes of understanding to. I, as you have said at
times, I am not dogmatic about some things. If I respond to them, it is more
like a question, or "could it be that, etc., etc.". That is one reason I do not
like labels. Once a label is put on you, you are labeled. Sometimes others will
try to label you. A label is not usually placed on a product until the process is
finished. God isn't finished with me yet!

Falla39

[acerrak]

Bro. Blume,
There are some things I have not seen clearly yet. Those are the things I
will trust God to open my eyes of understanding to. I, as you have said at
times, I am not dogmatic about some things. If I respond to them, it is more
like a question, or "could it be that, etc., etc.". That is one reason I do not
like labels. Once a label is put on you, you are labeled. Sometimes others will
try to label you. A label is not usually placed on a product until the process is
finished. God isn't finished with me yet!

Falla39

currently fella do you believe in a physical resurrection? and do you believe that Jesus returned in the way he left in the ch 1 of the book of acts according to the angels testimony?

[Falla39]

Rev. 14: 13,14
Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

The above passage caused me to wonder if we don't now go directly to be with the LORD. To those who die in the LORD.

Rev. 20:26
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Ephesians 2:5,6
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved).
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Is this the first resurrection for the people of God? IF so, the second death has no power to those who die in the Lord.

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this!
__________________________________________________ _______________
God sent His Only Begotten Son (humanity) into the world so that through him they might be saved. He finished the work his Father had sent him to do.
Then it came time for the Father to bring many sons to glory. God was going to pour out the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead and raised him back up. At some time after his resurrection he ascended up and submitted to the Father that God might fill all in all.
God is still filling vessels that emptied themselves of self, vanity and pride. Vessels that are empty and longing to be filled with the Spirit of the Living GOD.

Eph. 4:10
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1 Cor. 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. For the Father seeketh such to worship Him.

What God could not do as Spirit, He did in and through the body of the Son. Deity and humanity working together as one! I and Father are (as) one. Why can we not understand that we as humanity can do nothing without Jesus Christ. He told his disciples that "without me you can do nothing (no thing). Are we any different! GOD (Spirit) working in and through us today as the Body of Christ.

These are a few verses that I have considered. I am still in the process and have not arrived!

Falla39

[acerrak]

Rev. 14: 13,14
Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

The above passage caused me to wonder if we don't now go directly to be with the LORD. To those who die in the LORD.

Rev. 20:26
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Ephesians 2:5,6
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved).
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Is this the first resurrection for the people of God? IF so, the second death has no power to those who die in the Lord.

John 11:26
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this!
__________________________________________________ _______________
God sent His Only Begotten Son (humanity) into the world so that through him they might be saved. He finished the work his Father had sent him to do.
Then it came time for the Father to bring many sons to glory. God was going to pour out the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead and raised him back up. At some time after his resurrection he ascended up and submitted to the Father that God might fill all in all.
God is still filling vessels that emptied themselves of self, vanity and pride. Vessels that are empty and longing to be filled with the Spirit of the Living GOD.

Eph. 4:10
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1 Cor. 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. For the Father seeketh such to worship Him.

What God could not do as Spirit, He did in and through the body of the Son. Deity and humanity working together as one! I and Father are (as) one. Why can we not understand that we as humanity can do nothing without Jesus Christ. He told his disciples that "without me you can do nothing (no thing). Are we any different! GOD (Spirit) working in and through us today as the Body of Christ.

These are a few verses that I have considered. I am still in the process and have not arrived!

Falla39

while i agree whern we die are spirit goes to Christ, jusy as Paul said to be away from the body is to be with Christ.

Though because our spirit is with God that in itself is not the ressurection. Christ was the First fruits of many. and just as he was raised from the dead we must be also.

i also want to make a point of those who believe the ressurection is already passed, we even see people in the apostle pauls time teaching that the ressurection has past, just as full preteriest try and justify. This is the words he gave to timothy on the matter

2timothy2:17-18
And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Paul about to face execution was still admonishing timothy to continue to look to the ressurection of the dead.

If we do not rise like Christ did then the bible would be in err, as it specifically speaks of the him being the 1st fruits the ressurection. remember he showed them the scars on his hands and his side.

also Jesus and the Father were One in Unity, as we also see in john chapter 17:22

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Jesus prayed that we would be one (unity) as him and His father is One (unity)

cause i agree we cant do nothing with out the spirit, we cant even come to Christ with out the spirit drawing us to Him.

i also want to make a note on this you have erred in your saying
God sent His Only Begotten Son (humanity) into the world so that through him they might be saved

you must remove the humanity from it, that is not in your bible, humanity didnt die on the cross and humanity doesnt pray to God.

God Sent the word into the world, the Word became flesh, The son was the word, and the Son who is our creator died for our sins.

The the flesh died the Spirit went back to God as Jesus stated father into your hands
luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

God Bless

[mfblume]

Bro. Blume,
There are some things I have not seen clearly yet. Those are the things I
will trust God to open my eyes of understanding to. I, as you have said at
times, I am not dogmatic about some things. If I respond to them, it is more
like a question, or "could it be that, etc., etc.". That is one reason I do not
like labels. Once a label is put on you, you are labeled. Sometimes others will
try to label you. A label is not usually placed on a product until the process is
finished. God isn't finished with me yet!

Falla39

I like your approach to things. I also always wan to remain open for correction, etc. After being corrected in several things, I know there are likely more to be corrected on that I even may think I am sure about.

[Falla39]

I like your approach to things. I also always wan to remain open for correction, etc. After being corrected in several things, I know there are likely more to be corrected on that I even may think I am sure about.


Thank you, Bro. Blume,
I certainly don't know it all, but I know One who does! I so desire to be open to hear the Voice of the Chief Shepherd and Bishop of our souls.

Blessings,
Falla39

[Bowas]

"So I take it you refuse to search the scripture"

Extreme presumption .... and a debating tactic

Your out of context selection of subject is an obvious diversion as you attempt change the game .... you avoid the contextual subject because you cannot get around it without exposing your preteristic views

Stick to the overall subject of Peter's teaching

Believe me I know what you are doing .... trolling the posts of others for the purpose of spreading preterist doctrine is your obvious motive

If you want to teach preterism start your own posts instead of attaching to the writings of others ..... let them stand on their own .... and learn to respect other views at least to the extent of agreeing to disagree

If you do not agree with the views of others you do not have to read them

Your behavior tells me that you are out to push your views on others by argumentation and debate .... this does not reflect the work of the believer in Jesus Christ

What you do gains nothing for the cause of Christ, but only to satisfy your own lack of confidence in what you say you believe .... which is exactly why you do it

Simple observation I have noticed about you. It does not seem you are really coming to an open public forum to discuss, debate or even PROVE your point, you just want to come and MAKE your point.
Perhpas you should just start your own little blogspot so you can control who, what and how much of a particular subject can be discussed. I know a website that is so exclusive (and they have every right to) that one needs their pastors name just to be a member. It really "wrecks" my "heart" to see such methods, but whatever.
Consider starting a blog and you will not have any serious, difficult questions asked of your views, as you can just delete them. ;)

[mfblume]

.... and a debating tactic

Talk about a debating tactic, TF will not even discuss scriptures and claims he knows all about what we believe and has not made one single statement to prove it nor one statement showing why his interpretation of a verse is right and ours is not. He not only violates Proverbs words about fully researching a matter before one answers it, but violates peter's words about always being ready to give an answer to someone who asks you of your hope.

.... and a debating tactic