Mystery Babylon the Great

[Truth Files]

Revelation
17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, mystery, Babylon the great, the mother of harlots and abpminations of the earth.


The symbolic meaning of Mystery Babylon the Great is revealed for the first time from the Lord's comprehensive point of view in Revelation 17 and 18. This adultrous [unfaithful] "woman" represents the prevailing condition of lost humanity estranged from Him on a global scale.

This historical and end time view of the Lord is revealed regarding His evaluation of the same and His ultimate intent to bring the rule of earth by a lost civilization to an abrupt ending. [Psalms 2; Daniel 2:31-45; 1Thessalonians 5:1-6; 2Thessalonians 2:1-17; Revelation 6:12-17]

The term Babylon is used symbolically to describe human organizational behavior apart from His providence and direction. Humans began to organize shortly after the flood for the purpose escaping the Lord's intervention and control. [Genesis 10:10; 11:1-9]

They did this by grouping collectively and developing political, social, and false religious systems, etc.; and building cities and related infrastructures.

Post flood inhabitants living in the Tigris and Euphrates river valley believed they could become self-sufficient and create survival measures which would prohibit the Lord's intervention so that they could control their own destiny.

One essential requirement for the accomplishment of their ambitions was a common language which they had. This feature coupled with human intelligence allowed for great potential to move in the direction of self-determination.

The Lord observed their activities, warned them of the consequences, and as a deterrent He confused their language so that they could not understand one another. [Genesis 11:1-9]

This had the temporary effect of halting the building projects and dispersing the people. His action was His way of getting attention and making a point which was soon ignored. Many cities and their collective habitations were eventually constructed in the river valley and beyond.

Some of them became city/states with their own king, government, offensive and defensive military, false religions, culture, and economic trading systems. These then grew into larger dominions, and then into empires by forming alliances and by conquest.

The name Babylon, which is derived from the word "Babel" [confused languages], was the name of the first major city of the ancient Sumerian civilization in the land of Shinar [southern Iraq].

This was also the name of the greater neo-Babylonian Empire which ruled most of the Middle East in the 6th century B.C.. This model of advanced human organizational structure has been repeated many times through out history and exists today as a connected worldwide integration.

The name "Babylon" has been used in scripture to define other cities like Jerusalem because of its intransigence and likeness to the ancient city of Babylon. Jerusalem is defined as a "great city" in the book of Revelation [Revelation 11], but different from the "great city" part of Mystery Babylon the Great [Revelation 17 and 18].

The concept and process of human organization is not the problem. It is the fallen condition of humanity that becomes amplified by the environment created by human interactions and intransigence against the Lord.

Humans have lived in a fallen state of existence since Adam and Eve decided not to trust the Lord's providence and direction [Genesis 3:16-24]. Post-flood populations decided to do the same thing and continued on without regard for His presence. [Genesis 11:1-9]

His warning to Adam and Eve was that they would die physically and spiritually, and would eventually cease to exist if they refused to trust Him and then to separate themselves from Him.

We are all in this same condition and must turn, seek His forgiveness and grace, and receive His gift of eternal life by accepting Him as our Lord and savior. [Romans 1:16-32; 2:1-8]

Mystery Babylon the Great has been and is influenced and controlled by satan who is called the god of this world and of the kingdoms of the nations.

He knows that humans have been created for eventual eternal life and his objective is to deceive them and turn them away from the Lord. All of Mystery Babylon's attributes are vulnerable to satan's manipulations.

The woman in Revelation 17 is Mystery Babylon the Great and she is shown sitting on the heads [dominions, kingdoms] of the beast indicating a connection with the heads.

These heads symbolize successive and specific human kingdoms [dominions] and related king positions; and these dominions contain the lost human civilizations represented by the symbol of the unfaithful "woman".

Satan rules over the seven specific kingdoms presented in the scope of the visions through his beast Abaddon-Apollyon who is another fallen angelic, and they symbolize seven successive dominions which have and will exist in the Middle East. [Revelatyion 13:1, 17:8]

Each of them has a human king "position" that rules the dominion, or kingdom, which represents the geographical extent of the king's influence control.

The woman is unsaved organized humanity existing within the domain [kingdom]. Babylon is used symbolically to describe her. She is the prevailing condition of lost humanity over time.

She also has and does exist in other parts of the world outside of the Middle East, but these dominions are not seen in the scope of the visions recorded in the Bible [many known civilizations of the past are not recorded in the visions].

The exception is her "great city" part [possibly a great nation] seen in the book of Revelation which will be located outside of the Middle East at the time of the end of this present age. [Revelation 17, 18]

This core great city part of lost humanity is seen dominating all of the other nations, their kings, and their cities in the world with specific reference to worldwide economic influence and control.

Abaddon-Apollyon is a fallen angelic prince who influences and rules over all of the seven human king positions and their dominions of the Middle East for satan. His presence is revealed with specific connection to the earth and world of humans centered in the Middle East. [Psalms 83; Ezekiel 38; Micah 5:5; Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 17:8]

[Truth Files]

Mystery Babylon the Great continued .....

The woman is always present as the rule of each dominion falls and the next prevails. Her first five dominion relationships of the past recorded in the scope of Bible prophecy were all centered in the Middle East. [Revelation 17:8]

The Lord reveals her past and future existence in the book of Revelation. In the broader context she represents all of the dominions [nations] and their cities in the world during the coming time of the end.

Her future great city part will be dominant over the sixth dominion of satan's beast located in the Middle East and all of the other nations and their cities in the world at the time of the end.

satan [the dragon], Abaddon-Apollyon [the beast], the human little horn [human king], and the ten other horns [human kings] will hate her great city part and destroy it with fire in one day. This will occur just the beginning of the Lord's coming judgment. [Revelation 8:7-12; 14:8; 17:16-18; 18:1-21]

The Lord will draw satan and his agents to carry out His judgment process against her great city part.

This will be His first direct response and judgment against an unbelieving world of humanity just at the beginning of the coming tribulation period. He will strike at the woman's core civilization [the great city] and destroy it in one hour.

The rest of her dominion relationships of the cities of the nations will remain during the coming tribulation period and will include the sixth and seventh dominions of satan's beast in the Middle East.

She will be completely destroyed when the Lord destroys the dominion of the beast and all of the remaining dominions [nations] and their cities in the world. Not one will be left standing and all human rule of self government will come to an end. [Revelation 16:17-20]

Mystery Babylon's attributes [the lost condition of humanity] are deception, arrogance, self-sufficiency, greed, materialism, vice, corruption, violence, crime, murder, false religion, religious persecution, and offensive warfare.

She is the corporate collection of unbelieving unsaved human societies and empires that have existed since the flood and have separated themselves from the Lord.

He considers her accountable for the killing of prophets, believers, and all humans who have been slain on the earth. The nations [dominions] of the Gentiles and Israel have been guilty of all of these actions in many ways over time. [Revelation 17, 18]

Any combination of her attributes and behavior can influence and contribute to the ultimate destruction of humans by distraction and by keeping them from seeking and finding the right relationship to the Lord.

She will have grown to enormous advanced proportions [Mystery Babylon the Great] by the time of the end and her most prominent feature will be her commercial, financial, and economic dominance on a worldwide scale. [Revelation 18]

The Lord will judge her by motivating the little horn [the beast incarnate] and the ten other horns [human kings] to attack and destroy her great commercial and economic center of influence with fire in one day. [Revelation 17:16-18]

Her great city's destruction will occur just at the beginning of the tribulation period of the Lord's coming wrath and it is recorded within the first 4 trumpet soundings recorded in the book of Revelation. [Revelation 8]

The smoke of her burning will be viewed by those far off who depend upon her commercial and economic strength and presence; both as a provider and a market place. [Revelation 18]

Her abrupt fall will cause worldwide economic upheaval and huge environmental contaminations. Much of the world will reel in the confusion as the result of her destruction.

If we are close to the time of the end of this present age, her great city may very well be the combined cities of the USA [a unified nation of states .... a great city]. I am speculating on this possibility.

These states are all connected via financial, economic, and commercial interests which in turn dominate most of the world's commercial trade, wealth, and finance. The USA is the current leading economic power of the group and could be the part of the woman called the "great city" described in Revelation 17 and 18.

The little horn [the beast] and the other ten horns will be in the Middle East where his sixth and seventh dominions will be located.

I am speculating about the actual identification and location of the "great City", but not about the location of the sixth and seventh dominions [kingdoms] of satan's beast. [Ezekiel 38; Daniel 8:9-13; 11:36-45; Micah 5]

satan and Abaddon-Apollyon will dominate the Middle East through the human little horn and he will cause much difficulty and destruction on a worldwide scale during the coming tribulation period. His sixth kingdom will be a small one [the one that "is"] located in the northern sector of the Middle East. [Revelation 17:10]

He will then expand the sixth into the seventh and final divided kingdom incorporating the ten other Middle Eastern kings and their kingdoms. [Ezekiel 38; Daniel 7]

The current Islamic factor in the Middle East will be part of this picture. This religion is the common denominator that will produce the cult worship of the beast. The core of Islamic fundamentalism is located in the Middle East. [Psalms 83; Ezekiel 38; Revelation 13:11]

The student of Bible prophecy needs to be aware of these things as we move closer to the end of this age. We could be on the very door step of the beginning of the time of the end of this present age.

Current conditions may change over the course of time and could present a different picture, but there are significant similarities existing today which resemble the Bible's descriptions of the coming end time events.

Two declarations are made in Revelation in conjunction with the Lord's judgment of Mystery Babylon's great city part, her other cities of the world, and the battle of Armageddon.

He will call His people to, "come out of her", so that they do not experience her calamities when her great city is destroyed. [Revelation 18:4]

This will be a command and action by the Lord to remove living believers from her great city part and the rest of the world just before the destruction comes. [Matthew 25:1-13; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; Revelation 3:10]

"I will come as a thief", is the other declaration made which is what the Lord has said regarding His unannounced return to start the judgment process of His hour of trial against an unbelieving world. [1Thessalonians 5:1-4; 25:13; 2Peter 3:10; Revelation 16:15 (parenthetical)]

His warning is that believers must be prepared [keeping the truth], and watching, and waiting for this event so that they are not caught off guard and subjected His the hour of trial [judgment] that is coming.

[Lafon]

"His warning to Adam and Eve was that they would die physically and spiritually,...."

I have yet to read in any Bible where it states this, either explicitly or implicity! I do read, however, that God warned Adam he would "surely die" should he choose to partake of the fruit from the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" though (implying a physical, but NOT a spiritual death... as clearly evidenced by the words of Genesis 3:19), as you have explicitly asserted otherwise within the context of the above quoted statement.

Does not the English word "death" imply the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions? Of course! So tell me, I pray thee, just how would it be possible for one to "die spiritually," as you've asserted to have been the case with Adam and Eve, only to read shortly after they were removed from the garden at Eden that Eve said (when she had given birth to her firstborn son Cain), "I have gotten a man from the LORD"? (Genesis 4:1) That statement, my friend, certainly doesn't appear to be one that would escape the lips of an individual who was "spiritually dead"!

If Adam experienced a "spiritual" death, as you've asserted, then who do you suppose informed men of "the name of the LORD," as we read in Genesis 4:26?

If both Adam and Eve (both) became "spiritually" dead following God's imposition of the penalty of death upon their physical bodies as a consequences of their willful, rebellious act of violating His explicit commandment concerning the forbidden fruit, then who do you suppose informed their sons (Cain and Abel) of the requirement to bring an offering (including the specific type) unto God as an atonement for their sins?

Nay, my friend, you are guilty of adding something to the written context of the sacred Writ which simply is not there, thus violating one of its most important principles (see Deuteronomy 4:2 & Revelation 22:18). And, if this were not sufficiently egregious, you have also, in essence, condemned both Adam and Eve to the eternal flames of the lake of fire, have you not? Would not such, if it were true, represent the invisible Spirit rendering a verdict of eternal judgment, when the Lord Jesus Himself explicitly asserted that "...the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son"? (John 5:22) (And that judgment is yet to transpire in the future.)

Are you yet unaware of the fact that it only takes "a little leaven to leaveneth the whole lump"? (I Corinthians 5:6 & Galatians 5:9) IMHO, when one violates this sacred precept, either willfully or unwittingly, causes their entire doctrine to become corrupt and void. This single factor, alone, causes me to immediately suspect the scriptural merits of the things which you publicly publish to be the indisputable truth of God's sacred written word.

Not meaning to be "mean spirited" here.... simply being candid.

[Truth Files]

"how would it be possible for one to "die spiritually"

Eccleasiates
9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Revelation
20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Do you have any other questions related to the OP?

[Lafon]

Stephen, to imply that its possible for one experience a "spiritual" death (as you've asserted in the case with Adam and Eve), then is it not the same as stating that such a one is still alive (i.e., physically), yet has been rendered incapable of discerning the truth about "spiritual" matters, which is to say, the truth of God's written word?

None of the scriptural references you've noted addressed the things (& questions) which I tendered in my previous posting, rather they represent an (apparent) deliberate attempt to "skirt" the matter, which also appears to be the modus operandi which you follow in responding to the statements of others which point out the glaringly evident errors of your expressed beliefs.

Seeing that you are unwilling to "talk turkey" concerning things, this posting will be my last in response to the things which you might post (on this, or any other forum).

[Falla39]

TF,
When did Samson know he had lost his "power". It doesn't usually happen
overnight.

At what point did King Saul know he had lost his Anointing? There is usually a
space of grace for repentence.

Would it not be when the Spirit departs, that one would be dead spiritually!

It is the spirit/Spirit that makes/gives LIFE! The body without the spirit is dead.
The body without the Spirit is spiritually dead!

Falla39

[Lafon]

The body without the spirit is dead.

Falla, the word "spirit," as you've quoted from James 2:26, is one which is defined as "breath," that is to say, the energetic life-giving element which God places within the human body at birth, thereby providing the physical "body" and the eternal invisible "soul" the ability to operate in a state of harmony/unison. Its removal from the "body" causes the flesh to be dead, hence James' statement.

The body without the Spirit is spiritually dead!

Although there is no scriptural passage which explicitly states this (of which I am aware, that is), nevertheless it is a factual truth. Is this not what Jesus was implying when He said, "Follow me; and let the dead bury the dead"? (Matthew 8:22) Indeed, in a very real sense, all who are void of the indwelling Spirit can be said to be "spiritually dead," for as Paul penned in I Corinthians 2:14 -- "...the natural man receiveth not the things of God:... neither can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned."

If I am correctly understanding Stephen's assertion concerning the "spiritual deaths" of Adam and Eve, I have concluded he was alleging that following God's imposition of the penalty of death upon their physical bodies, their minds were rendered incapable of comprehending the truth of God's word, which, IMHO, is an improper, misleading interpretation of the situation which confronted them as a consequences of this punishment for their sin.

I would also be quick to note that neither Sampson or Saul possessed the indwelling Spirit, therefore it could not be said that they became "spiritually dead" by God departing from them. One must remember that it is written in John 7:38-39 whereby Jesus said, "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." This statement of our Lord was followed immediately with this explanation -- (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) This would imply that no one who lived prior to the death, burial, resurrection and "glorification" of Christ Jesus possessed the indwelling Spirit.

[mfblume]

Lafon,

I noticed you indicated you did not agree there is a concept like spiritual death. I would refer to Ep 2:1 where Paul said we were dead in trespasses and sins before we were saved. We know that is not physical death. And then Rom 6:13 says we are alive from the dead once we are saved. Would that not be a spiritual death from which we are resurrected in salvation? Then Jude spoke of people twice dead, plucked up by the roots. That is not physical death, so what would you say about that? Thanks!

[Lafon]

Lafon,

I noticed you indicated you did not agree there is a concept like spiritual death. I would refer to Ep 2:1 where Paul said we were dead in trespasses and sins before we were saved. We know that is not physical death. And then Rom 6:13 says we are alive from the dead once we are saved. Would that not be a spiritual death from which we are resurrected in salvation? Then Jude spoke of people twice dead, plucked up by the roots. That is not physical death, so what would you say about that? Thanks!


Mike, I believe for "openers" one needs to closely examine the definition of two important words:

Spiritual = Influenced or controlled by godly thoughts; concerned with righteous values; seeking earnestly to live in a right relationship with God; having a nature (i.e., mindset) in which a concern for God predominates; assumptions, methods or notations held by an individual which is so established that it creates a powerful incentive to be concerned with things pertaining to God, therein causing one to adopt or accept behaviors, choices which are pleasing to God.

Death = The total, permanent cessation of all vital functions without the possibility of recovery (i.e., irretrievable, beyond recall, and no way back); the permanent end of all life in an organism, thus rendering it inanimate (Related words: decease, demise, dying, destruction). II Samuel 14:14 provides an excellent portrayal of death, being likened unto water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again.

Within the context of the scriptural passages you've noted (Romans 6:13; Ephesians 2:1; and Jude 12) one does not find these two words being used... only the singular word dead. Therefore for one to attempt to somehow interject the word spiritual therein, and everything which it connotes (i.e., implies or suggests as a consequence of being dead), simply cannot be justified (IMHO): at least such is the case with Paul's statements of Romans and Ephesians.

When Jude wrote of those who are twice dead, plucked up by the roots, I have always construed that as a reference to one who has become reprobate in their thinking and mannerisms, which is to say, so hardened (in their mind) as to feel no remorse or misgiving of conscience.

IMHO, and in recognition of the above noted definitions of the words spiritual and death, then whenever one employs these (jointly) within the context of the same sentence (i.e., "spiritual death"), as Stephen has done in his initial posting, then it would seem to be implying that God has caused the ability of the affected individuals (Adam and Eve) to be incapable of comprehending the truth of those things which pertain to Him, His kingdom, or eternal life.

In a very real sense, Stephen has effectively judged Adam and Eve unworthy of eternal salvation, sentencing them to eternal damnation (something which the scriptures do not do).

Are there those who are dead in trespasses and sins, as noted by Paul? Of course! Such is the lot of every man prior to their being made aware of the consequences of such, the acquired knowledge of the eternal consequences of such enables them to make the conscious decision regarding the proper manner in which such personal misgivings against God must be handled. However, this does not imply or suggest that such a one is rendered incapable (i.e., dead in the spiritual sense) of recognizing, acknowledging and reacting in the proper manner to their sins and trespasses which they have committed (unwittingly as a direct consequences of their corrupt nature inherited from their father Adam).

I refute, with righteous indignation, Stephen's assertion that when God imposed the penalty of death upon the substantive, physical bodies of Adam and Eve as a consequence of their willful act of disobedience to His commandment, that this penalty also included a judgment of spiritual death. Nothing within the entire context of the Bible either implies or even remotely suggests such a thing! Were this true, then it would have effectively rendered them (as well as anyone else upon whom such a judgment might be imposed), utterly incapable of comprehending anything pertaining to God, and effectively causing them to be judged unworthy of salvation. Such was definitely NOT the case with this first man and woman, and to assert otherwise is a blatant disregard of God's righteous behavior!

I pray that this answers your questions.

[Godsdrummer]

Just a few thoughts to maybe cause one to take another look at what has been seen as irrefutable truth.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

What we have IMHO are the doctrines based on the deffinition of a word in our language or out of the context of the verse in question. The definition of the words Spiritual, or Death does not apply to the suject in question. We are forgetting the basic rule of study that is the context of the original passage not the building of doctrines based on our own compilation of verses to say what we want them to say.

Two things to note God said "In the day thou eat" This death that took place happened in the day they ate of the tree.

The word "Die" in this verse can be litural or figuritive.

I have heard the subject taught that the death was physical but it just did not happen to them right away. This idea is contradictory to the verse. "In the day thou eat".

The point, lets all take a step back from the doctrines we preach as the only truth and take a overall look at all things. And then make a true understanding based on what the spirit of God directs instead of man made doctrines.

That being said anyone that does not and will not take another look at what they teach and beleive whenever faced with a differance is bordering on false doctrine and cultish ideas.

[mfblume]

Mike, I believe for "openers" one needs to closely examine the definition of two important words:

Spiritual = Influenced or controlled by godly thoughts; concerned with righteous values; seeking earnestly to live in a right relationship with God; having a nature (i.e., mindset) in which a concern for God predominates; assumptions, methods or notations held by an individual which is so established that it creates a powerful incentive to be concerned with things pertaining to God, therein causing one to adopt or accept behaviors, choices which are pleasing to God.

There is where the problem is, then. I do not believe that is the only definition for "spiritual."

Please look up the Greek term PNEUMATIKOS and see what SPIRITUAL means:

THAYER
G4152
πνευματικός
pneumatikos
Thayer Definition:
1) relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ
1a) that which possesses the nature of the rational soul
2) belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God
3) belonging to the Divine Spirit
3a) of God the Holy Spirit
3b) one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God
4) pertaining to the wind or breath; windy, exposed to the wind, blowing
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4151
Citing in TDNT: 6:332, 876


Your definition is valid, and is indicated above in 3b). But the first 1) definition Thayer gave is what I am referring to. Spiritual also means OF THE SPIRIT. It can be OF GOD'S Spirit, or OF OR RELATED TO MAN'S spirit. Man has a spirit which is entirely human, and then there is God's Spirit and heavenly angels that are ministering spirits, and then evil spirits.

Using your definition, one can be spiritually dead by having backslidden since one's influence from God is gone. But then there is the spiritual death of the spirit (noun) actually being dead. Spiritual death in that sense would refer to a spirit that is dormant or dead or ineffective. Those who claim spiritual death is real are trying to say mankind's spirit was inactive or dead and actually unknown by such people who would be considered spiritually dead. It's like they do not even have a spirit, whereas their souls and bodies are all they utilize and are aware of.

Death = The total, permanent cessation of all vital functions without the possibility of recovery (i.e., irretrievable, beyond recall, and no way back); the permanent end of all life in an organism, thus rendering it inanimate (Related words: decease, demise, dying, destruction). II Samuel 14:14 provides an excellent portrayal of death, being likened unto water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again.

Again, that is ONE definition. But look what Paul said:

2 Corinthians 5:8 KJV We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

What part of Paul would be absent from his body? Paul spoke of HIMSELF being absent from the body. He distinguished himself from his body. This is what Paul meant for death.

He said the same thing about death using that idea here:

Philippians 1:23 KJV For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

What departs the body and this present life? Paul was referring to himself departing. This is the reason people say DEATH is a SEPARATION OF TWO THINGS. Soul/spirit from body, in Paul's case, and Adam's spirit from God's Spirit, making his sin a spiritual death.

Notice the two passages that relate, where the second one concerning Shimei referred to death:

Gen 2:17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die.

1 Kings 2:42 "Did I not make you swear by the Lord and solemnly warn you, saying, ‘You will know for certain that on the day you depart and go anywhere, you shall surely die’

Adam died the very single day he ate the forbidden fruit. What would be the nature of that death if he physically lived 930 more years?

Within the context of the scriptural passages you've noted (Romans 6:13; Ephesians 2:1; and Jude 12) one does not find these two words being used... only the singular word dead.

But what would DEATH refer to in those instances? What died? The body is not in view here as dying. But something is dead. The word "SPIRITUAL" is an adjective. What ADJECTIVE would you use to describe what sort of DEATH Paul spoke of in Eph 2:1 if it was not "spiritual"?

Therefore for one to attempt to somehow interject the word spiritual therein, and everything which it connotes (i.e., implies or suggests as a consequence of being dead), simply cannot be justified (IMHO): at least such is the case with Paul's statements of Romans and Ephesians.

But Spiritual does not only mean influenced by God. It simply means of the spirit, whether that spirit is human or divine. It cannot be the soul of a person because that is mind, emotions and will of a person, and we were all alive in soul while in sin. So if man is a spirit, soul and body, and the soul and body was not dead, it can only mean the spirit.

When Jude wrote of those who are twice dead, plucked up by the roots, I have always construed that as a reference to one who has become reprobate in their thinking and mannerisms, which is to say, so hardened (in their mind) as to feel no remorse or misgiving of conscience.

So would you say that is conscience-death? I actually believe the conscience is part of the human spirit. And since conscience is a SPIRITUAL thing, contrasted with PHYSICAL, it would constitute spiritual death to say one is dead in conscience.

You see, SPIRITUAL is contrasted with NATURAL. And those refer to SOURCES OF LIFE. The term SPIRITUAL is not limited in the bible to the definition you gave. 1 Cor 10 says there is SPIRITUAL MEAT AND DRINK. The Greek IKOS suffix in PNEUMATIKOS designates the thoughts of WHAT DRIVES or ENLIVENS a thing. An ancient machine operated by wind was found in ancient Greek writings to be called a PNEUMATIKOS. That is literally a SPIRITUAL. PNEUMA means both WIND and SPIRIT. Hence, the thought of wind driving a machine makes it a PNEUMA (WIND)-T-IKOS (DRIVEN).

IMHO, and in recognition of the above noted definitions of the words spiritual and death, then whenever one employs these (jointly) within the context of the same sentence

That is the problem, though. Your definitions are not the only ones the Greek lexicons provide.

(i.e., "spiritual death"), as Stephen has done in his initial posting, then it would seem to be implying that God has caused the ability of the affected individuals (Adam and Eve) to be incapable of comprehending the truth of those things which pertain to Him, His kingdom, or eternal life.

That definition cannot apply to SPIRITUAL MEAT and DRINK. These would involve the definitions about something BEING RELATED TO SPIRIT, or OF SPIRIT. The meat and drink of 1 Cor 10 is therefore not meat and drink that can hear from God like spiritual people can in the context of your definition, but rather meat and drink that CAME FROM THE SPIRIT OF GOD'S POWER, or simply MEAT AND DRINK that had a spiritual message or position in typology. Otherwise, how would MEAT AND DRINK be spiritual in the context you are using?

1 Corinthians 10:3 KJV And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1 Corinthians 10:4 KJV And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Are there those who are dead in trespasses and sins, as noted by Paul? Of course! Such is the lot of every man prior to their being made aware of the consequences of such, the acquired knowledge of the eternal consequences of such enables them to make the conscious decision regarding the proper manner in which such personal misgivings against God must be handled. However, this does not imply or suggest that such a one is rendered incapable (i.e., dead in the spiritual sense) of recognizing, acknowledging and reacting in the proper manner to their sins and trespasses which they have committed (unwittingly as a direct consequences of their corrupt nature inherited from their father Adam).

Again, that is not the only definition of SPIRITUAL that exists in the Greek. Being dead in trespasses and sins would simply mean in relation to spiritual life they were like a dead man, just as a physically dead man is unaware of physical things around him. This shows something important. There is a SPIRITUAL REALM and a PHYSICAL REALM. This demands a definition of SPIRITUAL that you did not present but is nonetheless accurate.

I refute, with righteous indignation, Stephen's assertion that when God imposed the penalty of death upon the substantive, physical bodies of Adam and Eve as a consequence of their willful act of disobedience to His commandment, that this penalty also included a judgment of spiritual death. Nothing within the entire context of the Bible either implies or even remotely suggests such a thing!

...If you limit SPIRITUAL to the definitions you presented, then you are correct. But spiritual does not ONLY mean what you presented. It also means OF OR RELATING TO THE SPIRIT. And there is an entire REALM OF THE SPIRIT, or SPIRITUAL REALM. God's SPIRIT dwells in the unseen realm. The invisibles. That which is not seen is eternal, and that which is seen is temporal. This is contrasting actual realities. The physical realities are not the only realities that exist. You know as well as I do that Science only relates to things the five senses can relate to. PHYSICAL things, in other words. But there are things of the SPIRIT REALM that exist, like angels and demons and God and satan. These would be CALLED SPIRITUAL realities because they are of that which is SPIRIT and not BODY.

If SPIRITUAL ONLY MEANT something influenced or controlled by God, then why are demons called EVIL SPIRITS? The English suffix -UAL relates the thought of something being OF the term used as the root word to which UAL is added. SPIRIT-UAL would simply mean OF THE SPIRIT. And since demons are evil spirits, then there is such a thing as a reality that is OF THE DEMON SPIRIT. This can mean that HATRED is spiritual when a demon spirit is causing or, or NATURAL if it is from the human source of what drives things. Hence, NATURAL AND SPIRITUAL are again contrasted.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[mfblume]

REGARDING SPIRITUAL DEATH:

There are three words Paul used to describe the level of Christianity all believers are divided into.

1. Spiritual

2. Natural

3 Carnal.

NATURAL in the Greek has the root word of SOUL not BODY.

CARNAL is rooted in the Greek word for BODY.


SPIRITUAL means DRIVEN BY SPIRIT.

NATURAL means DRIVEN BY SOUL.

CARNAL means DRIVE BY FLESH.

So when Paul speaks of a NATURAL BODY and SPIRITUAL BODY he is not speaking about material composition any more than saying something is SOUL DRIVEN means it is FLESH DRIVEN.Look at the terms:

1 Corinthians 2:15 KJV But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
SPIRITUAL: G4152 πνευματικός pneumatikos

1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NATURAL: G5591 ψυχικός psuchikos

1 Corinthians 3:1 KJV And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
CARNAL: G4559 σαρκικός sarkikos



SPIRIT: pneuma

SOUL: psuche

FLESH: sarx

Man is comprised of these three things in 1 Thess 5:23.

This shows that SPIRITUAL does not only mean someone who is keen and sensitive to be controlled and led by God. It also means anything related to the SPIRIT, be it God's Spirit, man's spirit or even evil spirits. In this case DRIVEN by the Spirit of God and the LIFE which is SUPERNATURAL rather than NATURAL. (Remember, spiritual is contrasted with NATURAL in 1 Cor 15 regarding BODIES). How can a BODY be spiritual if it is talking about people sensitive to the Spirit of God?

LAFON, to show my point, let me ask you what would be a SPIRITUAL BODY in your understanding?

Jesus said what is born of the Spirit (God's Spirit) is spirit (man's spirit). So a spirit can be BORN of God. I actually believe a spirit is DEAD before salvation and brought into life by new birth of God's Spirit, just as a fleshly womb brings forth a fleshly body. That which is born of flesh is flesh. And a backslider can become dead in spirit again, which is what Jude meant by TWICE DEAD.

If there is TWICE BORN (born again) then there is TWICE DEAD, and they both refer to the human spirit.

[Lafon]

Mike, I've read your response and will comment on it later, however, seeing that my schedule keeps me quite busy, I must request your patience in doing so as time allows.

I will say this briefly though - I am not in agreement with Thayer's definitions, for it appears that he has concluded "soul" and "spirit" as being synonymous (i.e., equivalent in meaning; expressing or implying the same idea), which they are not.

I find it written in the scriptures that God created the "soul" and "body" of man, but nowhere is it to be found written that God "created" man's "spirit."

I'll try to elaborate in my reply.

Thanks for your patience.

[mfblume]

Mike, I've read your response and will comment on it later, however, seeing that my schedule keeps me quite busy, I must request your patience in doing so as time allows.

I will say this briefly though - I am not in agreement with Thayer's definitions, for it appears that he has concluded "soul" and "spirit" as being synonymous (i.e., equivalent in meaning; expressing or implying the same idea), which they are not.

I find it written in the scriptures that God created the "soul" and "body" of man, but nowhere is it to be found written that God "created" man's "spirit."

I'll try to elaborate in my reply.

Thanks for your patience.

No problem abut your response time.

However, EVERY DICTIONARY makes SPIRITUAL to simply mean the definition Thayer related.

WEBSTER:Spiritual
SPIRITUAL, a.

1. Consisting of spirit; not material; incorporeal; as a spiritual substance or being.

2. Mental; intellectual; as spiritual armor.

3. Not gross; refined from external things; not sensual; relative to mind only; as a spiritual and refined religion.

4. Not lay or temporal; relating to sacred things; ecclesiastical; as the spiritual functions of the clergy; the lords spiritual and temporal; a spiritual corporation.

5. Pertaining to spirit or to the affections; pure; holy.

Gods law is spiritual; it is a transcript of the divine nature, and extends its authority to the acts of the soul of man.

6. Pertaining to the renewed nature of man; as spiritual life.

7. Not fleshly; not material; as spiritual sacrifices. 1 Pet 2.

8. Pertaining to divine things; as spiritual songs. Eph 5.

Spiritual court, an ecclesiastical court; a court held by a bishop or other ecclesiastic.

INTERNATIONAL STANDARD BIBLE ENCYCLOPEDIA:Spiritual
spir´it̬-ū́-al (πνευματικός, pneumatikós, “spiritual,” from πνεῦμα, pneúma, “spirit”): Endowed with the attributes of spirit. Any being made in the image of God who is a Spirit (Joh_4:24.), and thus having the nature of spirit, is a spiritual being.
(1) Spiritual hosts of wickedness (Eph_6:12), in distinction from beings clothed in “flesh and blood” - the devil and his angels. This use of the word has reference to nature, essence, and not to character or moral quality. God, angels, man, devil, demons are in essence spiritual. The groundwork and faculties of their rational and moral being are the same. This limited use of the word in the New Testament has its adverb equivalent in Rev_11:8, “which (the great and wicked city) spiritually is called Sodom.” As the comprehensive term moral includes immoral, so spiritual includes unspiritual and all that pertains to spirit.
(2) With the above exception, “spiritual” in the New Testament signifies moral, not physical antithesis: an essence springing from the Spirit of God and imparted to the spirit of man. Hence, spiritual in this sense always presupposes the infusion of the Holy Spirit to quicken, and inform. It is opposed (a) to σαρκρκός, sarkikós, “fleshly” (1Co_3:1), men of the flesh and not of the spirit; (b) to ψυχικός, psuchikós, “natural,” man in whom the pneúma, “spirit,” is over-ridden, because of the Fall, by psuchḗ, the principle of the animal life, “soul”; hence, the unrenewed man, unspiritual, alienated from the life of God (1Co_2:14; 2Pe_2:12; Jud_1:10). See MAN, NATURAL; (c) to natural, meaning physical, “... sown a natural body;... raised a spiritual body” (1Co_15:44).
(3) In the New Testament and general use “spiritual” thus indicates man regenerated, indwelt, enlightened, endued, empowered, guided by the Holy Spirit; conformed to the will of God, having the mind of Christ, living in and led by the Spirit. The spiritual man is a new creation born from above (Rom_8:6; 1Co_2:15; 1Co_3:1; 1Co_14:37; Col_1:9; 1Pe_2:5).
(4) Ecclesiastically used of things sacred or religious, as spiritual authority, spiritual assembly, spiritual office. See SPIRIT.


I also disagree that soul is the same thing as spirit. But that does not retract from the point that anything to do with a SPIRIT of any sort, human, demonic or God, can be said to be SPIRITUAL, and not just that SPIRITUAL means controlled by God as in the thought of MORALITY and GODLINESS. The bible is clear about that as in my example in 1 Cor 10 where MEAT and DRINK were called SPIRITUAL, and they were not like people who can be morally led by God and not carnal, which your definition restricts it. We cannot make up definitions or make up what definitions alone can be used for a term in the bible. Your definition is correct but it by no means is the only definition of SPIRITUAL. Your definition does not fit with the spiritual meat and drink scenario, nor with SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS in high places. If SPIRITUAL only means controlled by the Soirit of God, then how could there be SPIRITUAL WICKEDNESS?

Spiritual simply means OF THE SPIRIT REALM or OF SPIRITS, bnot only controlled by God as an adjective of what people should be. If your definition were true, then wickedness is good when it is SPIRITUAL wickedness, because that would mean such wickedness is controlled by God! And we know that is silly. :thumbsup.

God bless and thanks for your time. Respond whenever you can.

[mfblume]

More on the term SPIRITUAL.

Spiritual does not solely mean controlled by God. We speak of things that are not of this world, and we call them spiritual realities. That does not mean they are controlled by God like a spiritual person who is led by the Spirit is. It has a completely different definition in that sense than the sense you present, Lafon. Your definition is valid ONLY IN SOME CASES. We can say that devils are SPIRITUAL beings, because they are SPIRITS. We can also say that there is an entire realm that is not natural because it is SPIRITUAL, and involves angels, devils, satan and God. So spiritual is an adjective that describes anything that is SUPERNATURAL, too.