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Digging4Truth
09-23-2011, 07:13 AM
You'd think, from the way I Peter 3:21 is most often quoted that it said the following.

1 Peter 3:21 Baptism doth also now save us

But it doesn't.

It says the following...

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

So... I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on the further explanation found in parenthesis.

The statement is made that, in like figure to the ark & the flood, baptism doth also now save us.

Then a further explanation is given that says "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God"

What does that mean?

Amanah
09-23-2011, 08:10 AM
getting my ESV out before Prax starts teasing us about the doth, brb

Steve Epley
09-23-2011, 08:12 AM
Twas not a ceremonial cleansing as in the law but in baptism the penitent have their sins washed away.

Amanah
09-23-2011, 08:13 AM
1 Peter 3:21

English Standard Version (ESV)


21Baptism, which corresponds to this,(A) now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but(B) as an appeal to God for a good conscience,(C) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

mfblume
09-23-2011, 09:12 AM
Twas not a ceremonial cleansing as in the law but in baptism the penitent have their sins washed away.

Amen. God does many wonderful things beyond the sight of man in such things like baptism. Col 2:11-12 says there is an operation God performs in baptism that is not done with human hands, while human hands baptize. In other words, the real work is not the preacher baptizing the person, but the faith in the obedient one being baptized causes God to operate and cut away the body of the sins of the flesh. That is why baptism is a spiritual circumcision. But when spiritual issues are in focus, many cannot fathom them, so they do not see any spiritual value in water baptism.

Digging4Truth
09-23-2011, 09:29 AM
Amen. God does many wonderful things beyond the sight of man in such things like baptism. Col 2:11-12 says there is an operation God performs in baptism that is not done with human hands, while human hands baptize. In other words, the real work is not the preacher baptizing the person, but the faith in the obedient one being baptized causes God to operate and cut away the body of the sins of the flesh. That is why baptism is a spiritual circumcision. But when spiritual issues are in focus, many cannot fathom them, so they do not see any spiritual value in water baptism.

In other words... what it is stating is that the cleansing going on is not a physical cleansing but a spiritual one?

mfblume
09-23-2011, 09:30 AM
In other words... what it is stating is that the cleansing going on is not a physical cleansing but a spiritual one?

Yes, a cleansing of sin is a spiritual cleansing. Or a spiritual circumcision. Cutting away not physical flesh but the body of sins of the flesh.

berkeley
09-23-2011, 09:35 AM
Abraham's faith before circumcision imputed righteousness. Think on these things.

Digging4Truth
09-23-2011, 09:37 AM
Abraham's faith before circumcision imputed righteousness. Think on these things.

How does that pertain to the question?

Steve Epley
09-23-2011, 09:40 AM
How does that pertain to the question?

NOT a thing.

Amanah
09-23-2011, 09:40 AM
How does that pertain to the question?

because baptism is the NT circumcision

TGBTG
09-23-2011, 09:41 AM
How does that pertain to the question?

I think he's trying to say that if baptism is where the body of sin is cut off, (iow, no more sin but now righteousness) then Abraham could not have been righteous until he got circumcised.

berkeley
09-23-2011, 09:42 AM
How does that pertain to the question?

Abe was saved, if you will, before circumcision. What many are promoting is a salvation through/after (spiritual) circumcsion.

TGBTG
09-23-2011, 09:43 AM
because baptism is the NT circumcision

I have heard this statement, but how is this true? 'cause honestly, I was baptized twice as an adult, but my heart surely was not circumcised UNTIL the day I got the baptism of the HolyGhost.

What scripture states baptism is the NT circumcision?

mfblume
09-23-2011, 09:44 AM
Abraham's faith before circumcision imputed righteousness. Think on these things.

That is very important to know. But it implies the faith Abraham had was the kind of faith that God knew WOULD WORK. In other words, God knew Abraham would submit to circumcision before Abraham did it because God knew the heart of Abraham that believed had the kind of faith that was alive and WOULD WORK, or WOULD OBEY.

mfblume
09-23-2011, 09:44 AM
I have heard this statement, but how is this true? 'cause honestly, I was baptized twice as an adult, but my heart surely was not circumcised UNTIL the day I got the baptism of the HolyGhost.

What scripture states baptism is the NT circumcision?

Col 2:11-12.

mfblume
09-23-2011, 09:45 AM
I think he's trying to say that if baptism is where the body of sin is cut off, (iow, no more sin but now righteousness) then Abraham could not have been righteous until he got circumcised.

Col 2:11-12 is not speaking about righteousness, though.

Steve Epley
09-23-2011, 09:46 AM
NO OT type is perfect that is why it is called a shadow or type the argument is moot. IN the NT ONLY at baptism are the sins of the penitent remitted.

TGBTG
09-23-2011, 09:55 AM
NO OT type is perfect that is why it is called a shadow or type the argument is moot. IN the NT ONLY at baptism are the sins of the penitent remitted.

Acts 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Also, consider what Peter said again:

Acts 15

7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Their hearts were already purified by God even before they were baptized.

mfblume
09-23-2011, 09:58 AM
Acts 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Also, consider what Peter said again:

Acts 15

7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Their hearts were already purified by God even before they were baptized.

I agree with all your points, but baptism was still demanded, and without it I think they would be lost if they refused it. Abraham was deemed righteous before circumcision, but do you think God would have done that had God seen his heart would refuse circumcision when it was required of him?

Baptism is a SIGNATURE on a contract, so to speak. God's seal is the Holy Ghost. Ours is baptism. It is part of cutting the covenant.

TGBTG
09-23-2011, 10:01 AM
Col 2:11-12.

Col 2
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

It doesn't say when we're baptized, our heart is circumcised?? Anyway, maybe it's just me who hasn't seen it yet.

If baptism is what circumcises the heart, then how do we explain Simon the sorcerer's heart after baptism?

TGBTG
09-23-2011, 10:03 AM
I agree with all your points, but baptism was still demanded, and without it I think they would be lost if they refused it. Abraham was deemed righteous before circumcision, but do you think God would have done that had God seen his heart would refuse circumcision when it was required of him?

Baptism is a SIGNATURE on a contract, so to speak. God's seal is the Holy Ghost. Ours is baptism. It is part of cutting the covenant.

Yes, agreed

mfblume
09-23-2011, 10:05 AM
Col 2
11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

It doesn't say when we're baptized, our heart is circumcised?? Anyway, maybe it's just me who hasn't seen it yet.

If baptism is what circumcises the heart, then how do we explain Simon the sorcerer's heart after baptism?

Two possible answers. 1) Simon did not have faith that he should have had. Baptism is only good when our faith is correct. 2) Simon was tempted after a genuine heart cleansing, as ALL CHRISTIANS ARE, and gave in as many do.

Steve Epley
09-23-2011, 10:09 AM
Acts 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Also, consider what Peter said again:

Acts 15

7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Their hearts were already purified by God even before they were baptized.

NOPE! Baptism was included in the purifying of the heart. v.48 Part of the SAVING words was baptism. Acts 11:14-15

ForeverBlessed
09-23-2011, 05:50 PM
I have heard this statement, but how is this true? 'cause honestly, I was baptized twice as an adult, but my heart surely was not circumcised UNTIL the day I got the baptism of the HolyGhost.

What scripture states baptism is the NT circumcision?

I agree with you...the baptism that Jesus came to bring was baptism of the Spirit...which is the Spiritual circumcision of the heart. Peter remembered the words of Jesus Acts 11:16

Baptism of the Spirit can happen before water baptism Acts 10:47 and of course after water baptism Act 19

HRea
09-23-2011, 07:02 PM
What scripture states baptism is the NT circumcision?

Romans 6:3-7 is the companion reference to Colossians 2:11-12 that speaks to baptism being the NT circumcision, the "cutting away and destruction" of the old man, the body of sin.

mfblume
09-23-2011, 07:40 PM
I agree with you...the baptism that Jesus came to bring was baptism of the Spirit...which is the Spiritual circumcision of the heart. Peter remembered the words of Jesus Acts 11:16

Baptism of the Spirit can happen before water baptism Acts 10:47 and of course after water baptism Act 19

Although Spirit baptism can occur before or after water baptism, I do not think circumcision is involved in Spirit baptism. Spirit baptism is not a death with Christ as is water baptism. To cut or circumcise body of sins away is what water baptism is involved with. Spirit baptism is more of a giving of life rather than a taking away of sins. That is why water baptism is said to be part of washing away sins in Acts 22:16.

Water baptism is part of coming into union with Christ's death. And it is in speaking of death in Romans 6 that water baptism is involved. 1 Peter 3 notes water baptism and chapter 4 says the same thing Romans 6 says -- we should no longer live the rest of our time in the flesh, or after the flesh. Spirit baptism causes Him to be inside us in order to live through us, but water baptism is involved directly with dealing with sin.

pelathais
09-23-2011, 08:24 PM
That is very important to know. But it implies the faith Abraham had was the kind of faith that God knew WOULD WORK. In other words, God knew Abraham would submit to circumcision before Abraham did it because God knew the heart of Abraham that believed had the kind of faith that was alive and WOULD WORK, or WOULD OBEY.

God had predestined Abraham to good works? Right on! The NT believer is also predestined to good works in Christ: Ephesians 2:10.

As I've understood Bezerkly, Abraham was "saved" (righteousness was imputed upon him) by God in Genesis 15:6. Later, God established the covenant of circumcision (Genesis 17) with Abraham and Abraham was faithful to follow God's covenant. That's good, sound Bible exegesis.

Thus, Abraham was "saved" before he was circumcised. In the same manner, a NT believer is saved from sin BEFORE he/she is baptized in water (Romans 4:3-9) and THEN, as a part of joining the NT body of believers, is later baptized in water ("buried with Christ" - Romans 6:4).

Genesis 15:6 comes before Genesis 17.

Romans 4 comes before Romans 6.

... and, in a similar manner, Colossians 1:18-23, comes before Colossians 2:11-12.

Again, notice how the pioneers of the UPC saw this matter. I know that neither Mike nor Steve are UPC themselves, but this might be said to represent "the majority opinion" of Oneness believers. When are "sins remitted?" At Repentance and Conversion" and NOT at "Water Baptism."

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc275/pelathais/repent_conversion.png

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

pelathais
09-23-2011, 08:35 PM
I have heard this statement, but how is this true? 'cause honestly, I was baptized twice as an adult, but my heart surely was not circumcised UNTIL the day I got the baptism of the HolyGhost.

What scripture states baptism is the NT circumcision?

Col 2:11-12.

That's not entirely fair to TGBTG ("The Country's Best Yogurt is Grape Jelly?" Or something?) Anyhoo... In Colossians 2:11-12 we do find Paul making this comparison. However, Ephesians 2 has a different take. The fact that Paul himself wasn't too dogmatic about this "typology" should serve as a warning to us to be careful not to be so demanding ourselves.

In Ephesians 2:11-22, it is the "cutting" of Jesus Christ on the cross and not the "cutting" of the flesh (see Ephesians 2:16) in a literal circumcision that makes us a part of the people of God. It is an operation of God's Spirit and not that of a rabbi with a flint blade (See Ephesians 2:18) that performs this for us. In any case, water baptism isn't even in view here; nor is anything that you can do "with hands" (See Ephesians 2:11) like baptizing people.

pelathais
09-23-2011, 08:37 PM
NO OT type is perfect that is why it is called a shadow or type the argument is moot. IN the NT ONLY at baptism are the sins of the penitent remitted.

Scripture? (See Romans 3:25) ... oh, and give us the name of a "heretick" from the writings of the "Church Fathers" who preached this doctrine of yours. One name. :thumbsup

pelathais
09-23-2011, 08:45 PM
I agree with you...the baptism that Jesus came to bring was baptism of the Spirit...which is the Spiritual circumcision of the heart. Peter remembered the words of Jesus Acts 11:16

Baptism of the Spirit can happen before water baptism Acts 10:47 and of course after water baptism Act 19

Ephesians 2:11-22 again. "Circumcision" is under discussion in this passage and it concludes with, "In him (Jesus) you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit;" but there is no mention nor any indication at all that water baptism plays a part in any of this.

Water baptism is important - I would say that it is nearly universally necessary (with the exceptions like Mike's "Guy Who Dies in the Car on the Way to Be Baptized"). However, the grace it imparts is NOT "the forgiveness of sins." It involves a few steps that each believer will take along their journey to the Promised Land.

pelathais
09-23-2011, 09:16 PM
There are records throughout history. I have the Post Nicean Fathers and if you know what you are looking for they are mentioned as hereticks. Remember victors are the folks who write histories. The RCC from the 4th century onward ruled or influenced the world. That does not mean if you search they are not there. There is ample evidence from my studies and I am no historian of folks preaching the Acts 2:38 message and the absolute Oneness of God throughout history until the present.

Name one. From about 200 AD through 1899. Name one.

Steve Epley
09-23-2011, 11:33 PM
Name one. From about 200 AD through 1899. Name one.

I named Sabellius. You didn't like him.

pelathais
09-24-2011, 05:55 AM
I named Sabellius. You didn't like him.

Oh I like him fine. You never told me how he baptized, though. We'll need at least some evidence if not "ample evidence." You never gave us "ample evidence" that he ever "spoke in tongues" either. You haven't responded to most of my questions, for that matter.

And, as you recall our differences here, he really lived in the "dawn" of the time period under question. You asserted that you had "ample evidence" of those who held your beliefs just from the "POST Nicene Fathers" (these were the "Fathers" whose careers and writings followed 325 AD). To make things a bit easier, I have expanded the range and enlarged your target by over 1,500 years. Surely you can hit something there.

We need folks who "preached the full package of Acts 2:38 salvation." All the stuff that you have said is essential for one's salvation. Still, we have no one from about 200-225 through 1899 AD. Almost the entire "Church Age" without a "full package Acts 2:38 preacher." Was no one saved?

Steve Epley
09-24-2011, 11:04 AM
Oh I like him fine. You never told me how he baptized, though. We'll need at least some evidence if not "ample evidence." You never gave us "ample evidence" that he ever "spoke in tongues" either. You haven't responded to most of my questions, for that matter.

And, as you recall our differences here, he really lived in the "dawn" of the time period under question. You asserted that you had "ample evidence" of those who held your beliefs just from the "POST Nicene Fathers" (these were the "Fathers" whose careers and writings followed 325 AD). To make things a bit easier, I have expanded the range and enlarged your target by over 1,500 years. Surely you can hit something there.

We need folks who "preached the full package of Acts 2:38 salvation." All the stuff that you have said is essential for one's salvation. Still, we have no one from about 200-225 through 1899 AD. Almost the entire "Church Age" without a "full package Acts 2:38 preacher." Was no one saved?

So you have a quote where Sabellius did not speak in tongues? Elders Chalfant & Wisner both have books order them.

berkeley
09-24-2011, 11:08 AM
So you have a quote where Sabellius did not speak in tongues? Elders Chalfant & Wisner both have books order them.

Do you have quotes that he did?

Amanah
09-24-2011, 11:27 AM
http://www.acts238saves.org/id17.html

in the interest of considering all evidence, please review and comment

please note that various church history in interspersed with the evidence of peoples who baptized in Jesus Name and/or had the HG. This does not prove that there is any church history that corresponds directly with the UPC model though. please comment

AD 33-100

�� AD 34 Phillip baptized the Ethiopian. This new convert took the Acts message to North Africa and started North African Christianity. This message spread through all of Africa. (A. Neander,pp.71,79,132,424) It never perished.

�� AD 46-50 Paue, et.al., evangelized Asia Minor and lower Europe. (Acts 15:14)

�� AD 51 Paul preached on Mars Hill at Athens, Greece. (Acts 17:22)

�� AD 50-60 Apostle Thomas indoctrinated Malabar, India with Acts 2:38 doctrine. (A.S. Atiya, pp. 53,261)

�� AD 66-90 THEY WENT OUT FROM US, because they were not of us. (1 John 2:19;Jude 1- 3). Most were apostate Greeks who had been seethed in Platonism, polytheism, mythology and philosophy. Some could never understand monotheism.

�� AD 90 CATHOLIC CHURCH starts. TRINITARIANISM invented. (L. Paine, pp.86,287). It was derived from Plato's celestial arithmetic. (L. Hogben, p.266). Tertullian twisted Plato's TIMAEUS into his "TRINITAS." Here started the Trinity.

AD 100-200

The Acts water baptism continued. (A. Neander,p.301) Tongues speaking continued. (W. Horton, pp. 71-75,150). They preached the Apostolic One God message. (Blunt, p. 440).

�� AD 96-100 Apostle John died. He had carried on for Paul and evangelized the Roman world, Armenia, Malabar, Saxony, and Glastonbury.

�� AD 117 Celtic missionaries spread Acts 2 over Western Europe. (A. Neander,p.49). Gospel preached in China. (Langer,p.537). Apostolics had Bibles. (Blunt,p.127).

�� AD 157 MONTANISM amplified. (Blunt,pp.338,440). Montanist were One God tongue talkers, Acts 2 Christians. Montanist were also called SABELLIANISM. (Blunt, PP.340,440). Montanism was alive as late as 1909 in Moravia. R.A. Knox, p.402).

�� AD 180 THE NORTH AFRICAN APOSTOLIC CHURCH fought the Catholic system. (A. Neander,p.132;H.C. Frend, p.91)

�� AD 175 Early ideas about purgatory, catechism, and confirmation seeped into Catholicism which was adopted from the Orphic cult. (Bernstein & Green,p. 78).

�� AD 193 Emperor SEPTIMUS SEVERUS forbade any to join Apostolic Christianity or Judaism! (H. F. Frend,p 91).

Amanah
09-24-2011, 11:27 AM
http://www.acts238saves.org/id17.html

AD 200-300

�� AD 200 Hundreds of thousands continued Holy Spirit tongues, gifts of the Spirit. This Apostolic doctrine was in Europe, Eurasia, Asia, including China, and North Africa. (Heick,p.150;M.T. Kelsey,pp.40,41).

�� AD 204 Basilides martyred because he preached Acts 2 message.

�� AD 230 TERTULLIAN declared that tongues-speaking Monarchians outnumbered Catholics. (A. C. Mc Giffert,p.239).

�� AD 240 MANI, born in Persia, baptized in Jesus Name, knew glossolalia, and kept the feast of Pentecost (Blunt,p.289;J.Laux,p.141).

�� AD 275-300 MAMAS and DONATUS came on the theological scene. Donatism was of Sabellianism. In AD 350 this group had 400 churches. (L. Verduin,pp.30,258). QUOTE: "In the forms of some of the different sects (Montanist, Donatist, Sabellian, Arian, ect,.) the Monarchian controversy agitated the church of Rome...during the third century, and in the fourth, and called for the two great Councils of Nicea and Constantinople." (J.H. Blunt,P.332).

�� AD 217-222 CALLISTUS devised the hail Marys, self-tortures and proclaimed himself: PONTIFF MAXIMUS. (O.W. Heick,p 101).

�� AD 252 The Council of Cartage directed that newborn infants be baptized within 8 days. (N.C. Eberhardt,p 117).

AD 300-400

The major churches of the...East were of Apostolic origin." (A. S. Atiya)

�� AD 320-340 WOLFLEIN (Little Wolf) was one of the greatest Apostolic preachers. He translated the GOTHIC BIBLE. He was responsible for baptism of millions of Europeans in Jesus Name. (H. Daniel-Rops,p.110). After the Nicean Council persecution was more severely levied against them. Only Apostolic Churches continued. (Neander,p. 126)

�� AD 304 Emperor Diocletian killed Jesus Name people. One God Christians were martyred by Rome. (Martyrs Mirror, p.155).

�� AD 313 CONSTANTINE became Emperor of all Rome. AD 325 he held the NICENE COUNCIL, the start of TRINITARIANISM.

�� AD 361 Apostolic churches confiscated by Catholics of Constantinople. We have been duped into supposing Catholicism was dominant by AD 370. There was but a handful of them in Africa. (R.A. Knox,p.58).

�� AD 390 Emperor Theodosius II killed 7000 Jesus Named Thessalonians. (Wm. Langer,p.129)

Amanah
09-24-2011, 11:27 AM
http://www.acts238saves.org/id17.html

AD 400-500

Beyond the reach or Rome in outlying places such as Saxony, Netherlands, Languedoc, etc., there were whole organizations of Acts 2 Christians. (J.H. Blunt,p. 15).

�� AD 502 The majority of people in W. European tribes had been baptized into the Name of Jesus. (H. Daniel-Rops, p.110)

�� AD 540-670 Bede, "English History" p. 148, found one-God people throughout England.

�� AD 431 COUNCIL OF EPHESUS (laux. p.154) The popes (199 of them) proclaimed Mary to be the "MOTHER OF GOD." (E. Fodor, Turkey 1970, p.243).

�� CATHOLICS BURN ALLEGED HERETICS! (J.B. Russell, p. 22).

�� AD 453 Pentecostal glossolalists martyred by Pope Leo I, some were tongues speaking Priscillianists. (Roth, p.35).

�� AD 476 ROMAN EMPIRE FELL! Rome could no longer lord over other nations. Vain historians wept and moaned over the fall of corrupt Rome.

�� AD 476-1000 THE DARK AGES.

AD 600-700

Christianity was found in several Modalistic Monarchian organizations. These were generally referred to collectively as: CATHARI.

�� AD 610 JESUS NAME WATER BAPTISM (Lambert, p. 62). The Jesus Christ water baptism was almost the only one in Frisia until AD 689. There were almost no Catholics. (J. Laux, p. 218).

�� NOTE: For 526 years (since AD 37-42) Apostolic Celts in Britain had kept the 14th NISAN Passover! One God doctrine was the dominant religion by far. (E.T. Thompson, "Through the Ages, pp. 106-108). The world has been duped into supposing Catholicism was the only religion there was.

�� AD 662 MOSLEMS FOUGHT CATHOLICS. Islamism was strong. Muslims had the KORAN, their Holy Book. (Bernstein & Green, p. 172). Muslims in Spain were the Moors; and they protected Jews and other one God Christians from Catholic interest.

�� AD 695 Jews were killed in Spain by the Catholics. The adult Jews were martyred in Spain by Catholic believers and children of the jews were seized and reared as Catholics! (C. Roth, p.127).

AD 700-800

Celtic-Gothic (Acts 2) Christianity infiltrate W. Europe. Apostolic Christianity was throughout the Eastern Hemisphere, from Frisia to China, in massive organizations which had different names. Montanist, Donatist, Manichee, etc. There could have been more than 40 One God Apostolic organizations. It is amazing to find so many references concerning ancient One God Apostolic people and preachers.

�� AD 730 Pope Zachary was forced to acknowledge that the Christ baptism was dominant. (J.B. Russell,pp.172-175)

�� AD 717 Moslem armies besieged Constantinople. Moslems mocked at Rome's religious system and called it idol worship. (Wm. Langer,p. 158). War started. Moslems (Moors) defeated the Spaniards. This accounts for Catholic-Spanish hate for Moors and Jews. In 1492 Spain regained power and then massed murdered Moors, Jews and Apostolics, 6,000,000 is one figure. (C.Roth,p.123)

�� AD 746-748 Great plagues struck. Cholera, diphtheria, struck and killed millions. ("Ency. Britannica, Vol. 17, Chicago,p.1141).

Amanah
09-24-2011, 11:28 AM
http://www.acts238saves.org/id17.html

AD 800-900

The Catholic hierarchy slandered all others as, HERETICS! However, alleged heretics filled the lands.

�� AD 800 Quote: "Donatism (Acts 2) was never absent from the medieval scene. It lasted for twelve centuries and it maintained the primitive Apostolic message." (L.Verduin, p.35).

�� The 9th century had more Apostolics than any other. The following references prove this. (Z. Oldenbourg, pp. 29,41,255; J.B. Ressell, pp. 5-14, 172-178). During this period the Catholic system almost suffered total collapse. Apostolic preachers were everywhere. There were more "false priest" as they were called who had been ordained in the Catholic system. (Russell, p. 174).

�� AD 800 Vain kings like Pepin, Charles Martel, Charlemagne, etc., bowed to popes. (Wm. Langer, pp.150-155). Huge land grants were handed to the popes.

�� Charlemagne conquered and confiscated for the Vatican; he made about 54 military campaigns against non-Catholic countries, 18 against Saxony alone. (Berstein & Green, p. 200; E.T. Tompson, pp. 120-125). He then forced people into Catholicism.

�� AD 858-867 Pope Nicholas admitted that Jesus Name baptism was the valid one! ("Enc. Britannica, 11th ed., Vol 3, pp. 365-366).

�� AD 852-889 FEUDALISM STARTED. This is how Europe became Catholic. Rulers used Catholic armies to crush Bulgaria; that religion was forced upon Czechs and Slavics, etc. Jews were then massacred. (Bernstein & Green, p. 150-1; Laux, pp 275-288).

AD 900-1000

The Acts 2 churches continued to grow. GLOSSOLALIA, tongue-speaking, was called MYSTICISM, by some historians. (Russell, p. 172). There were divine miracles and gifts of the Spirit. We find that many organizations slandered as HERETICS.

�� AD 923 Eugenia was baptized in Jesus Name.

�� AD 925 Pelagius was baptized in Jesus Name.

�� AD 980 Sympronius was baptized in Jesus Name. ("Martyrs Mirror," p. 256). SIMONY erupted. This denotes offices bought or sold for money or favors. Some popes sold offices to the highest bidders. (Langer, pp. 215-217).

�� AD 995-999 King OLAF I of Norway, martyred thousands and with military might became the "man" of the lord, and served him! Later the lord handed to the bishop legal rights to the lands. Thus lands passed on to the Vatican. (Wm. Langer, p. 204). About the same time Catholic religion, was by power of the sword, imposed in Iceland and Greenland.

�� AD 1000-1100

The name Cathari gradually faded. Then was heard the name ALBIGENSES. Yet later, Albigensian gradually gave way to ANABAPTISM. Anabaptism simply means to re-baptize someone. The Anabaptist would re-baptize any one who was not baptized in Jesus Name.

�� AD 1015 Russians were militarily forced into Catholic belief. (Wm. Langer, p. 243).

�� AD 1029 Swedes were forced to take on Catholic belief.

�� AD 1035 Danes were forced to take on Catholic belief.

�� AD 1035 Salvic tribes were force to accept Catholic belief.

�� AD 1095 THE CRUSADERS. The Crusaders slaughtered Slavics and Jews on the way to Jerusalem. They took Jerusalem, mass murdered the Muslims and butchered 90,000 Jews. (Berstein & Green p. 255) The Crusaders looted murdered and plundered. They spread venereal diseases all over the Mideast. Then the great PLAGUES broke out. In that holocaust millions died!

AD 1100-1200

�� AD 1105 SCHOOLMEN men denied the Trinity.

�� AD 1108 "MULTITUDES OF FREETHINKERS" This is what the Apostolics, that covered the land was called. Pentecostals in Europe numbered about 4,000,000. (Blunt, p. 15,35; J. B. Russell,pp 54-80) It is interesting how these authors, Blunt and Russell, smeared, slandered those people. They were called "Henricians." Russell referred to them on page 76 as, "Apostolic holiness." They preached "hell fire" sermons. They used the Christ water baptism. Glossolalia was a common trait.

�� Waldo, of Lyons, France was one of the first that turned to Rome for doctrinal approval. He created a hybrid protestant religion. (Blunt, 617).

�� Many Apostolics were put to death. One little girl mocked and laughed as she died in the flames, but would not give up her belief in one God. 7000 people referred to as pious witness of Jesus were martyred at Bourges. (J. H. Blunt, p. 412)

�� AD 1121 COUNCIL of SOISSONS defended the Trinity attacked by the Schoolmen. (Blunt, p. 36)

�� AD 1147 St. Bernard of Clairvaux, France stated, "33% of the Catholics went to protestant conventicles!" (L. Verduin, p. 173)

�� AD 1164 PETER WALDO appeared! This was the beginning of PROTESTANT TRINITARIANISM. WALDENSIANISM held Rome's Trinity. In 1179 Waldo's bishops went to Rome for approval. (Blunt, p.617). Waldo set the pattern for modern Trinitarian protestant religion. Luther, Swingli, Menno, etc., followed.

AD 1200-1300

�� AD 1214 On July 27, the frightful happened. France's Catholic government gained control of Languedoc from the English. North France could, under Vatican orders, exterminate the mighty numbers of Apostolics. The papal INQUISITION was unleased upon all non- Catholics. (E. T. Thompson, pp 157-160; Roth, p. 36; Bernstein & Green, pp. 255,302).

�� ALBIGENSIANS MASSACRED. Who were the Albigensians that vain historians, suporting Rome, have so slandered? They were Holy Ghost filled, Jesus Named baptized, God fearing citizens who read their Bibles. They had ecclesiastical systems, schools and hospitals in over 1000 cities. (L. Verduin, pp. 106-115). They were driven out of their cities, then Catholic monasteries appeared. Many fled into Moravia.

�� AD 1284 URSINUS OF ETHIOPIA, an Ethiopian scholar, declared that baptism into the Name, Jesus Christ, alone was valid. This indicates that Philip's witness of the Eunuch years earlier was still working.

�� A century of CATHOLIC MASS MURDER. The INQUISITION was set in motion. It was insanity, devised by insane minds at the Vatican. AUTO DE FEs (Act of Faith!)

�� AD 1233 the Catholic Inquisition, a system of Catholic Tribunal Courts, was officially founded by Pope Gregory IX. It lasted until July 15, 1834. It's purpose was to punish the heretics and all persons guilty of any offence against Catholic orthodoxy. These Heretics should be deprived of the liberty of speech and that assemblies organized by heretics should be dissolved was the law. ("Ency. Britannica" 1950 Ed. Vol. 12, p. 377). The later part of the 10th century until the beginning of the 12th there were numerous executions of heretics, either by burning or strangling, in France, Italy, and the Empire of England. Remember that the heretics are the one God Apostolic organizations who would not accept the church of Rome.

�� C.S. Lovett, "Voice In The Wilderness" p. 9 said, "68,000,000, persons perished in the INQUISITION!" Most do not know that Adolf Hitler was a Catholic, and 6,000,000 Jews also perished under him and that canon law was again used. Canon law or body of laws is laws established by a church. It is a basis for judgment. This is consider to be the most important part of the mass. I suggest those who are interested in learning more about this awful time of INQUISITION check the Bibliography at the end of this study and review the list of books listed there.

Amanah
09-24-2011, 11:28 AM
http://www.acts238saves.org/id17.html

AD 1300-1400

�� AD 1300-1350 Anabaptist organizations (One God) sprang up in many places.

�� AD 1300-1414 Gothic Bibles had been used. English Bibles were used in the early 15th century. Catholics burned all the Bibles they could fine. (L. Boettner, p. 89).

�� AD 1312-1315 Apostolics were all over Eastern Europe.

�� AD 1381-1383 John Wycliffe, a professor in the University of Oxford, worked intensely to translate the English Bible. He preached against the countless atrocities of the Vatican. He stated that the Bible alone, without tradition, was the sole rule of faith. In AD 1415, the Council of Constance condemned Wycliffe. In 1428 Wycliffe's bones were burned by papal command. (A. Curtis, "Christ History" p. 1985, p. 24). History records indicate multiplied of Apostolics alive during this century.

�� AD 1303 Many histories describe the complete apostasy of the Vatican, it's popes as devils.

�� AD 1391 JEWS MASSACRED IN SPAIN-EUROPE. On March 15, bishop Ferran Martinez

started the anti-Jewish riot in Spain. It led to the great SPANISH INQUISITION. 50,000 Jews and Moors were burned in Auto da Fes (Act of Faith), 800,000 more victimized. (Cecil Roth, pp. 14-25).

AD 1400-1500

Most non-Catholics were still refereed to as ANABAPTIST. However, Anabaptist were neither Catholic or Protestant. This was pre-Reformation day. There were great numbers of Apostolic clergymen preaching Acts 2:38.

�� AD 1420 Apostolic religion swept the land in spite of the Inquisition. It was estimated that there were 4,000,000 One God Christians during that period. Blunt wrote of them as "Streams of Heretics." (Blunt, p. 16). Bainton screamed, "They covered the land." (Bainton, p. 279). There were more than 40 Jesus Name Organizations during this period.

�� The Roman Catholic Inquisition turned Europe into a holocaust. During this century billions of dollars and millions of acres of land were seized from Jews, Moors and Anabaptist.

�� Papal permission for SLAVERY was given to Prince Henry the navigator. (Bernstien & Green, p. 302; Wm. Lnager, pp. 486-504). Henry's captains began the slave trade by taking African Blacks to Portugal. Columbus introduced Black and Indian slavery into the Americas, not American Southerners. Blame the Vatican for slavery. ("The Detroit News,

�� AD 1460 Catholic Podebrad persecuted Apostolics. 400,000 pious Manichaeans (Acts 2 Christians) fled into Bosnia (Knox, p. p. 81)

�� AD 1469 FERDINAND and ISABELLA of Spain were married. They became the earth's greatest husband and wife team of Jew killers. After killing the Jews and confiscating their property they became very wealthy. (Lea, p. 333; C. Roth, pp. 71-90). Could this be the way they financed Columbus in 1492?

�� AD 1496-1500 Malabarese, of Malabar, India, (Acts 2:38 Christians) were massacred by Catholic Inquisitor Alvares Cabral. (A.S. Atiya, p. 359).

AD 1500-1600

This was unique century of religious history. Most think of Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli as classical reformers. However they set the theological trend for the world's modern Protestant Trinity religions.

�� AD 1517 On October 31 Luther nailed his Theses on the Palace Church door. Now the world had not only Catholic Trinitarianism but it also had Protestant Trinitarianism! However, there were still a lot of One God Christians around.

�� AD 1520-1532 GLOSSOLALIA OUTBREAK. Apostolic Pentecostalism was all through Luther and Zwingli's Europe. (W. Horton, pp. 97-138).

�� AD 1533 There were big organizations of Anti-Nicenes and Anti-Trinitarians. Some were classed as Salbellians. (G. H. Williams, p. 663).

�� AD 1553 MICHAEL SERVETUS, a Spaniard, was the greatest influence of the Acts two message during the sixteenth and seventeenth century for all of Europe and Asia. He was put to death in Geneva for denying Rome's Trinity theory. Servetus died in Jesus Name, and Calvin murdered him in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.(R. Bainton, p. 298). SERVETUS studied law. He later became medical doctor. He was also a preacher. He found problems with the Trinity theory. In fact he wrote a book, "On The Errors of The Trinity" that was published in Hagenow, near Strasbough in 1531. His book was wide spread before it could be censored. He had to change his name after writing his book. Under cover he had an assumed name and he practiced medicine in Lyons. He corresponded with John Calvin. Calvins views were the same as Luthers. Calvin told the Catholics the location of Servetus and they had him arrested. Calvin encouraged the court to find him guilty of capitol crime. Servetus was sentenced to be burned at the stake. The charges were that he did not believe in the Trinity, nor infant baptism. (See: "After the Way called Heresy, by Thomas Weisser, pp. 70-74)

�� AD 1501 Catholics started slavery in the Americas.

�� AD 1521 Luther rejected Biblical Pentecostalism! (Knox, "Enthusiasm", pp.134,135).

�� AD 1531 Luther agreed to the deth penalty in order to annihilate Anabaptist bodies and Jews. (Bainton, p. 279; p. Lapide, "Three Popes and the Jews, p. 25) It appears that Luther was not as sincere about Bible truth as historians and some Christian groups indicate. For instance Mr. Luther fully discused the Acts 2 message with the Apostolics all around him. He rejected it. (See: "Martin Luther," by J. Dillengerger, p. 279; Knox , pp. 134-135).

�� AD 1571 Phillip II martyred about 3,000,000 non-Catholics in the Netherlands. (Thompson, p. 187).

AD 1600-1700

Antibaptist groups continued to grow. Sabellianism was throughout Europe. Many pious clergymen were prepared to lay aside doctrinal differences and become true Apostolic Moravian Oneness. (G. H. Williams, pp. 656,698,670). It would be great if they could do that today! Frances Cornwell was one of the most educated Baptist in England during this period. He obtained a Master of Arts degree from Emanuel College. He was also trained at Cambridge. He was a vicar with the Church of England. He said, "The Lord opened the eyes of my understandings about the Acts 2:38 message." ("Two Oueries, p. 5) He wrote extensively and eloquently in defence of Biblical doctrines. Yet he is almost totally ignored by Baptist historians.

�� AD 1662 English citizens, meaning Holy Ghost filled Quakers, were deported from England, and sold as salves to rich Spanish Catholic families on plantations in Barbados and Jamaica. These pious glossolalists were sold under the "Conventicle and Five Mile Act. (J.H. Blunt, p. 465,466).

�� AD 1611 the King James Bible was printed. There were 47 scholars appointed as translators. All were Trinitarians, most were Englishmen. They worked for 7 years on the translation.

�� AD 1650-1670 Quietism outbreak, in which 60,000 ex-Catholics experienced Pentecostal glossolalia (speaking in tongues). (Knox, p. 243).

AD 1700-1800

Acts two message continued to spread world wide. Holy Ghost revivals were breaking out all over.

�� AD 1728-1731 there were 600 recorded Miracles! (Knox, pp. 372-376). There was a 100 year prayer meeting started. (A. K. Curtis, "Christ History" Vol. 2, No. 1, p.18) Knox wrote about England being a Pentecostal Babel.

�� AD 1734 Rev. John Wesley and Charles Wesley, went to the Moravian Christians for doctrine. Both turned to Moravianism (One God Apostolics). They witnessed Pentecostalism among in Georgia. (Knox, pp. 466-469).

�� AD 1772 A Holy Ghost outpouring was in Sweden.

�� AD 1774 on August 6, ANN LEE imported tongues speaking into the US and it spread. (E.D. Andrews,pp.15-19). William Penn brought tongues to America in 1677. (See: "After the Way Called Heresy by, Thomas Weisser) During this century the Catholics and Lutherans killed each other. AD 1733 Thousands of Catholics defected to the state of Georgia, USA and found Holy Ghost salvation. There were many healings and miracles. In 1762, the French government forbade miracles. There were uncountable miracles. (R.A. Knox, pp. 373-388).

�� In 1774 John Wesley lost 400 Methodist to Jesus Name Moravians in London. (R.A. Knox, p. 476).

AD 1800-1900

Why didn't we hear more about Apostolics during the 19th century, is a question often asked? As you recall in this study we found that Waldo and Luther set the trend to compromise to Rome's Trinity Doctrine and ignored the Acts two doctrine. Then Protestant Trinitarian influence lured the greater numbers. Many Christian organizations turned to Trinity doctrine.

�� In 1835, Lowell, Ohio, had a Acts 2:38 Church of Camisardds. (Rev. Joe Nelson, Ph.D., W.VA., had the records)

�� In 1850 Dan Huntington, Boston, Mass. baptized converts according to Acts 2:38. (V. Synan, p. 163).

�� In 1854 there was a 10 year long revival in Lebanon, NY and thousands became Spirit filled. Same thing happened in Canada.

�� In 1856 more than 160,000 tongues speakers in America. (Blunt, p. 467). Many other documented Holy Ghost groups were in America during this century.

�� AD 1804 Napoleon fought the Vatican. He seized papal lands and restricted papal rule. He advocated, "Destroy Rome and the papacy." (M. Martin, "The Decline & Fall of the Rom Ch." p. 236).

�� July 15, 1834 the Catholic Inquisition ended. America was about 250 years old at that time. In the 601 years it is estimated that 68,000,000 persons were put to death by the Inquisition. (C. Roth, p.267; Berstein & Green, p. 237 as to dates). Bull fights had its origin after the Inquisition ended. The people had were used to watching brutal murder so bull fights were the next best thing.

�� In 1861 the Civil War started and President Lincoln started to abolish human enslavement. The war ended in 1864. In 1900 there were 76,000,000 people in America.

Steve Epley
09-24-2011, 12:14 PM
Thanks but it won't matter wait and see.

Amanah
09-24-2011, 12:44 PM
Thanks but it won't matter wait and see.

Well in all honesty, although the evidence shows that were were people who were oneness, people who baptized in Jesus Name, and People who received the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues, there is no clear evidence if they believed more like PCI, or PAJC, or UPC, or some other variation.

I think that you can't argue the point from history or the tradition of men, you have to argue directly from the Bible.

And even there you will still have a diffference of opinion because we have the Bible in KJV, ESV, NIV, translations which comes from various "original texts" that people argue the authenticity of.

On top of that, people will bring in the Greek translations which can be interpreted with various nuances.

I'm convinced that the truth lies somewhere between PCI hard core and PAJC. And that as long as you follow the Bible, repent, be baptized in Jesus Name, and receive the Holy Ghost, you can't go wrong.

The blood was shed on the cross, Jesus took it to the mercy seat. If the blood is applied in repentance fine, but even then you have to go on with the faith that results in obedience, be baptized in Jesus Name because of/for the remissions of sins, and receive the baptism on the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues. Why would anyone not want that?

Lafon
09-24-2011, 03:12 PM
You'd think, from the way I Peter 3:21 is most often quoted that it said the following.

1 Peter 3:21 Baptism doth also now save us

But it doesn't.

It says the following...

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

So... I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were on the further explanation found in parenthesis.

The statement is made that, in like figure to the ark & the flood, baptism doth also now save us.

Then a further explanation is given that says "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God"

What does that mean?


IMHO the phrase noted in parenthesis within the context of Peter's remarks, which compared Noah's salvation BY water and ours THROUGH water baptism, represents an expression, albeit veiled, which advises that this act does NOT do away with (cancel, annul or render void) the consequences of sin, which is the death of the flesh.

This is the reason why even those who have taken heed to and obeyed the gospel message (i.e., Acts 2:38) still MUST experience death, without exception whatsoever!

The phrase - "filth of the flesh" is simply another way of expressing "the judgment of death." Nothing more than that!

Amanah
09-24-2011, 07:00 PM
IMHO the phrase noted in parenthesis within the context of Peter's remarks, which compared Noah's salvation BY water and ours THROUGH water baptism, represents an expression, albeit veiled, which advises that this act does NOT do away with (cancel, annul or render void) the consequences of sin, which is the death of the flesh.

This is the reason why even those who have taken heed to and obeyed the gospel message (i.e., Acts 2:38) still MUST experience death, without exception whatsoever!

The phrase - "filth of the flesh" is simply another way of expressing "the judgment of death." Nothing more than that!

you've really lost me on this one, what do you mean by saying after we obey the gospel we must experience death?

berkeley
09-24-2011, 07:01 PM
you've really lost me on this one, what do you mean by saying after we obey the gospel we must experience death?

A writer wrote that he died daily.

Amanah
09-24-2011, 07:03 PM
A writer wrote that he died daily.

do you think that is what the poster above me said? I dont think so, did you read his post?

berkeley
09-24-2011, 07:21 PM
My answer stands. Though his comment on filth/flesh is an angle that I have nevah read in regard to the passage in question.

pelathais
09-24-2011, 07:29 PM
So you have a quote where Sabellius did not speak in tongues? Elders Chalfant & Wisner both have books order them.

I have them (Thomas Weisser). I was also sitting just a few seats away from Bill Chalfant when he backed down on most of his assertions during a Oneness Symposium back in 1992 or 1994. He's been writing out-and-out historical fiction ever since. Notice?

Also, they just never seem to have been able to demonstrate that Sabellius preached the "Whole Gospel," as it were. Weisser mentions Sabellius' Modalism, he then misapprehends what is said about Sabellius and claims that Sabellius preached the modern OP variety of "Dispensational Modalism." He then quotes a saying by NA Urshan and attributes it to Sabellius. See http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=1100340&postcount=259

BESIDES! YOU said that YOU had "ample evidence." Let's have it. :thumbsup

pelathais
09-24-2011, 08:14 PM
My comments in Deeper Blue

http://www.acts238saves.org/id17.html

in the interest of considering all evidence, please review and comment

please note that various church history in interspersed with the evidence of peoples who baptized in Jesus Name and/or had the HG. This does not prove that there is any church history that corresponds directly with the UPC model though. please comment

AD 33-100

�� AD 34 Phillip baptized the Ethiopian. This new convert took the Acts message to North Africa and started North African Christianity. This message spread through all of Africa. (A. Neander,pp.71,79,132,424) It never perished.

Except for the fact that the Coptic Ethiopian Church had no clue as to what the first Oneness Pentecostal missionaries were even talking about when they arrived in the 20th century. Also, those missionaries never reported ever finding any OP believers when they arrived. The Ethiopian Coptic bibles contain late witnesses of the Gnostic teachings - things like Jesus never came "in the flesh." To this day, this teaching still divides modern Ethiopian OP believers from their North American brothers. Therefore, we can find no evidence to support this writer's claim that his idea of "the Acts message" "never perished" in Africa - we can't even find that it was ever there until POST Azusa Street. We don't even know if the eunuch Phillip baptized ever spoke in tongues.

�� AD 46-50 Paue, et.al., evangelized Asia Minor and lower Europe. (Acts 15:14)

�� AD 51 Paul preached on Mars Hill at Athens, Greece. (Acts 17:22)

�� AD 50-60 Apostle Thomas indoctrinated Malabar, India with Acts 2:38 doctrine. (A.S. Atiya, pp. 53,261)

If he means Aziz Suryal Atiya, his page references are as useless as Steve's. Professor Atiya wrote more than twenty books - most of them were multi-volume collections. Why doesn't www.acts238saves.org give us a real citation that we can double check? Atiya was an expert and something of a proponent of Gnostic Coptic Christianity (see above). I seriously doubt he ever said anything like what is attributed to him here.

�� AD 66-90 THEY WENT OUT FROM US, because they were not of us. (1 John 2:19;Jude 1- 3). Most were apostate Greeks who had been seethed in Platonism, polytheism, mythology and philosophy. Some could never understand monotheism.

John 1:1-14, for an example of Neo-Platonism?

�� AD 90 CATHOLIC CHURCH starts. TRINITARIANISM invented. (L. Paine, pp.86,287). It was derived from Plato's celestial arithmetic. (L. Hogben, p.266). Tertullian twisted Plato's TIMAEUS into his "TRINITAS." Here started the Trinity.

Tertullian coined the Latin phrase "Trinitas" to describe his understanding of the complexities within the Godhead. Like "Persona," most of the phrases he coined came from Ancient Etruscan and not Greek. "Timaeus" was a character used by Plato to set up Socrates' Critias. Again, John 1:1-14 and other passages of the NT give us a good representation of Plato's "demiurge," and other concepts. If it was wrong for the Apostle John to have drawn upon this material, then I suppose it was wrong for Tertullian to have done so as well.

AD 100-200

The Acts water baptism continued. (A. Neander,p.301) Tongues speaking continued. (W. Horton, pp. 71-75,150). They preached the Apostolic One God message. (Blunt, p. 440).

John Henry Blunt? Most editions of his "A Key to the Knowledge of Church History (Ancient)" have only 155 pages and then the Index. On page 61 he gives something of a table like this one but never mentions "ACTS 2:38" or the doctrine that this writer wants to push. John James Blunt? He too was an Anglican Priest whose writings focused mostly upon providing a historical justification for the English Reformation. Doubt that either said what is given here. Of course, by hiding your actual sources you can ensure that no one is able to double check your assertions.

�� AD 96-100 Apostle John died. He had carried on for Paul and evangelized the Roman world, Armenia, Malabar, Saxony, and Glastonbury.

Glastonbury? Hah! Malabar? So says the Coptic (Gnostic) 'Apostolic' Church of Western India (and the definitely DON'T preach the "Acts 2:38 message). Notice the links to British-Israelism and again to the Gnostic Coptic faith?

�� AD 117 Celtic missionaries spread Acts 2 over Western Europe. (A. Neander,p.49). Gospel preached in China. (Langer,p.537). Apostolics had Bibles. (Blunt,p.127).

Now, the Celtic Church did practice baptism by pouring or sprinkling in "Jesus' name." Clovis the Frank was so baptized by Irish missionaries. See Thomas Cahill's "How the Irish Saved Civilization" for a popular treatment of this. (Clovis was the founder of the line of Frankish kings known as the Merovingians. ... ALSO: When Jesuit missionaries arrived in Western China in the 16th Century, they found some Christians of a Nestorian-like persuasion. Not "Acts 2:38 message" in China until after 1913.

�� AD 157 MONTANISM amplified. (Blunt,pp.338,440). Montanist were One God tongue talkers, Acts 2 Christians. Montanist were also called SABELLIANISM. (Blunt, PP.340,440). Montanism was alive as late as 1909 in Moravia. R.A. Knox, p.402).

Montanus himself was almost certainly a Trinitarian" (really a "proto-Trinitarian"). The greatest advocate and most well known proponent of Montanism was of course... Tertullian, who you have already vilified for NOT being a "One God tongue talker" and etc. Though, he did advocate and even boasted of glossolalia within his fellowship.

�� AD 180 THE NORTH AFRICAN APOSTOLIC CHURCH fought the Catholic system. (A. Neander,p.132;H.C. Frend, p.91)

That would of course have been a surprise to such famous North African Christian writers as Origen, Clement, Tertullian and later Cyril and Augustine.

�� AD 175 Early ideas about purgatory, catechism, and confirmation seeped into Catholicism which was adopted from the Orphic cult. (Bernstein & Green,p. 78).

�� AD 193 Emperor SEPTIMUS SEVERUS forbade any to join Apostolic Christianity or Judaism! (H. F. Frend,p 91).

Severus and most Roman officials of this time period saw little or no difference between any form of Christianity and Judaism. They felt that the whole matter was more of a "Jewish argument" and they had little time and almost no patience for such matters (See Pilate's attempt to "shuffle" the "Jesus problem" off to Herod - Luke 23:1-7; and Gallio's comments in Acts 18:14-16).

With the resurgence of Persia in the East and pressure from Germanic tribes to the North, Rome was very keen to see the people within its empire conform to a "trustworthy" standard. As the emperor's grew increasingly paranoid and vain and their own civil wars intensified, to be seen as not being "properly Roman" was very dangerous indeed. Still, this condition says very little about either Christian or Jewish teachings and doctrine.

In summary, there are several statements here that are so vague that most people would accept them as "true." The references are deliberately obscured to prevent anyone from double checking the assertions made. There are plenty of bald faced... uh, .... "inventions" here as well.

Amanah
09-25-2011, 04:15 AM
My comments in Deeper Blue



In summary, there are several statements here that are so vague that most people would accept them as "true." The references are deliberately obscured to prevent anyone from double checking the assertions made. There are plenty of bald faced... uh, .... "inventions" here as well.[/B][/COLOR]

I agree with you it's obscure, which is why I now see that trying to find the church model from history is futile.

The model needs to be argued from scripture, which is also obsure due to various texts and translations being used.

We can't it argue from the manuals of man. (can't say we do this because it says so in the UPC handbook)

I'm almost of the mind that we are going to have to find the truth while prayerfully studying the bible and comparing it to our experience.

If we can't find the truth written on a page,? do we have to find it written on the fleshly tablets of our hearts?

tell me how to find a place to stand?

Lafon
09-25-2011, 06:13 AM
you've really lost me on this one, what do you mean by saying after we obey the gospel we must experience death?


Did you actually take the time to carefully read each of the statements which I wrote, or did you merely focus your attention upon that portion which you have tendered the question to? I would encourage you to re-read all that I wrote previously about this matter, and hopefully you might better grasp their significance. However, to perhaps assist you to attain a better understanding of the manner in which I understand Peter's remarks, please allow me to paraphrase the phrase which he penned.

("let it be understood that water baptism does nothing to cancel or absolve one from experiencing the penalty of death, only that it clears their conscience of the guilt for sins which they have comitted")

Do you know of anyone who has obeyed the dictates of Acts 2:38 that has never died? Of course not! Even though we are granted the rights of citizenship in the eternal kingdom of heaven whenever we repent, are immersed in the waters of baptism "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" for the remission of the sins which we were guilty of having comitted, and recieve the Spirit as an indwelling Guide and Counsellor in our mortal bodies, we MUST, nevertheless, still undergo the common experience of death.

Simply stated - God cannot discard or violate His own guiding principles of "righteousness"(which is to say, His equality of judgment), by granting an exemption from this penalty which He imposed upon all human flesh (a penalty which everyone inherits as a consequence of their birth from the "seed" of Adam's fleshly body upon which the penalty of death was originally imposed).

The words of Psalm 145:17 explicitly states that "the LORD is righteous in all his works," so we must understand from this that He could never violate this principle by exempting someone from the penalty of death. And it is this simple fact that Peter's phrase - "the filth of the flesh" - refers to.... nothing more than that!

Amanah
09-25-2011, 07:04 AM
Did you actually take the time to carefully read each of the statements which I wrote, or did you merely focus your attention upon that portion which you have tendered the question to? I would encourage you to re-read all that I wrote previously about this matter, and hopefully you might better grasp their significance. However, to perhaps assist you to attain a better understanding of the manner in which I understand Peter's remarks, please allow me to paraphrase the phrase which he penned.

("let it be understood that water baptism does nothing to cancel or absolve one from experiencing the penalty of death, only that it clears their conscience of the guilt for sins which they have comitted")

Do you know of anyone who has obeyed the dictates of Acts 2:38 that has never died? Of course not! Even though we are granted the rights of citizenship in the eternal kingdom of heaven whenever we repent, are immersed in the waters of baptism "in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" for the remission of the sins which we were guilty of having comitted, and recieve the Spirit as an indwelling Guide and Counsellor in our mortal bodies, we MUST, nevertheless, still undergo the common experience of death.

Simply stated - God cannot discard or violate His own guiding principles of "righteousness"(which is to say, His equality of judgment), by granting an exemption from this penalty which He imposed upon all human flesh (a penalty which everyone inherits as a consequence of their birth from the "seed" of Adam's fleshly body upon which the penalty of death was originally imposed).

The words of Psalm 145:17 explicitly states that "the LORD is righteous in all his works," so we must understand from this that He could never violate this principle by exempting someone from the penalty of death. And it is this simple fact that Peter's phrase - "the filth of the flesh" - refers to.... nothing more than that!

you are speaking of physical death then correct? I don't think anyone is arguing that we won't phycially die.