Free webcast - Issachar Institute, Pastor Suber - starts tonight

[SDG]

http://champ.org/images/content/issachar%20institute%20v2%20300x300.jpg

You are invited to join us in a unique training opportunity. The Issachar Institute is equipping individuals with an understanding of God's times and how each one of us must walk in His perfect timing to enjoy ultimate victory and the favor of God in our lives.

Issachar Institute Conference Teaching by Pastor Jonathan Suber
Friday 07:00 PM - 09:30 PM


Click here to view (http://www.streamingfaith.com/directory/network.aspx?nsn=Acts29TV)

_________________________

Brought to you by ACTS29tv

In this post-modern world, the Acts29tv Network is on a mission of discovery. By exploring the authenticity of the Book of Acts, a message of hope and new beginnings can become a reality for each believer. Join us as we discover together, the supernatural expressions of God’s favor through a variety of broadcasts on Acts29tv.

[rrford]

http://champ.org/images/content/issachar%20institute%20v2%20300x300.jpg

You are invited to join us in a unique training opportunity. The Issachar Institute is equipping individuals with an understanding of God's times and how each one of us must walk in His perfect timing to enjoy ultimate victory and the favor of God in our lives.

Issachar Institute Conference Teaching by Pastor Jonathan Suber
Friday 07:00 PM - 09:30 PM


Click here to view (http://www.streamingfaith.com/directory/network.aspx?nsn=Acts29TV)

_________________________

Brought to you by ACTS29tv

In this post-modern world, the Acts29tv Network is on a mission of discovery. By exploring the authenticity of the Book of Acts, a message of hope and new beginnings can become a reality for each believer. Join us as we discover together, the supernatural expressions of God’s favor through a variety of broadcasts on Acts29tv.

Pastor?

[SDG]

He is a staff pastor at Church of Champions.

[Praxeas]

Thanks Bro

[SDG]

Watching it now .... Suber will deal with the Prophetic tonight

[Praxeas]

What is the webpage for the notes?

[SDG]

To download your notes for this week's session, click on
http://www.champ.org/champstore/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=303

[Praxeas]

To download your notes for this week's session, click on
http://www.champ.org/champstore/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=303

Do you have these notes? Am I just getting an outline?

[SDG]

No ... I got a hardcopy of the last one ... I went to the first session a couple months back.

[Praxeas]

I got the notes but it's an unrecognized format

[Praxeas]

OK, it's a PDF format

[SDG]

They've got to make it a little more user-friendly ....

[Praxeas]

Can you post the answers for tonight so far? :-)

[Praxeas]

Where are we at in the notes anyways?

[Praxeas]

They've got to make it a little more user-friendly ....
yes, not only did they say PDF but they could make it so I can type in the answers

[SDG]

I'm not following it w/ the notes ... taught all day ... I get paper phobia on the weekends ...PRAX .... if you'd like ... I can try to get them for you .... however.

[Praxeas]

Duh...for $10 You get the answers too....and here I was gonna cheat and get the answers from you

[Praxeas]

I'm not following it w/ the notes ... taught all day ... I get paper phobia on the weekends ...PRAX .... if you'd like ... I can try to get them for you .... however.
I got em...hehe, thanks

[South of I 90]

Dan, what is Acts 29 TV? Is the an allocated channel on Streaming Faith?

[SDG]

It is a joint effort of the New Church Order.. (http://www.newchurchorder.com). Pastors Hutchins, Suber, Phillips and West are among those spearheading the effort ...

[SDG]

Duh...for $10 You get the answers too....and here I was gonna cheat and get the answers from you

Yo my brutha ... hook it up ....

[SDG]

More of Pastor Suber teaching on the Prophetic [Issachar Institute] on Saturday Feb 17,2007 at 9 am CST

CLICK HERE TO VIEW (http://www.streamingfaith.com/directory/network.aspx?nsn=Acts29TV&bhcp=1)

[Steadfast]

It is a joint effort of the New Church Order.. (http://www.newchurchorder.com). Pastors Hutchins, Suber, Phillips and West are among those spearheading the effort ...

Who is West?

[SDG]

Shane West ....

fly site made by him..... http://www.churchofchampions.com/

[Steadfast]

I see. Thanks.

[Praxeas]

Shane West ....

fly site made by him..... http://www.churchofchampions.com/
Isn't he an evangelist too? He has his own site also

http://www.shanewest.com/

[CC1]

Will these sessions be archived to watch later?

[LadyChocolate]

Who is West?

Shane West ....

fly site made by him..... http://www.churchofchampions.com/

I know Shane West . He was an evangelist for a many number of years... He testified about how God revealed the ONeness of the Godhead to him while he was a trinitarian preacher.... He came out of Vaughn Morton's church...............He's been allllll over... wow, he's changed.....

[SDG]

Will these sessions be archived to watch later?

I don't believe they will be archived online .. of course they will be available as a DVD for purchase.

[Praxeas]

I know Shane West . He was an evangelist for a many number of years... He testified about how God revealed the ONeness of the Godhead to him while he was a trinitarian preacher.... He came out of Vaughn Morton's church...............He's been allllll over... wow, he's changed.....
This is off topic but I knew this guy that used to be a witch in Fresno. The way he talks they have a lot of them there and they were very active. They would actively visit churches and try to recruit youth.

Anyone know anything about that?

[SDG]

This is off topic but I knew this guy that used to be a witch in Fresno. The way he talks they have a lot of them there and they were very active. They would actively visit churches and try to recruit youth.

Anyone know anything about that?

Dont know about this witch fella ... but every Sunday across America there are
'recruiters' entering our churches ...

[OneTruth]

Shane West ....

fly site made by him..... http://www.churchofchampions.com/

Are you sure Shane West in part of it? He is UPC I think.

[HeavenlyOne]

I don't believe they will be archived online .. of course they will be available as a DVD for purchase.

I saw you got the boot. I'm glad you are here posting.

[LadyChocolate]

This is off topic but I knew this guy that used to be a witch in Fresno. The way he talks they have a lot of them there and they were very active. They would actively visit churches and try to recruit youth.

Anyone know anything about that?

I have heard that california is a great place for 'witch' world but I don't know anything about it...but it doesn't surprise.....

[OneTruth]

I know Shane West . He was an evangelist for a many number of years... He testified about how God revealed the ONeness of the Godhead to him while he was a trinitarian preacher.... He came out of Vaughn Morton's church...............He's been allllll over... wow, he's changed.....

You may thinking of someone else. There is a Shane West preacher out of a Church in Indiana or Kentucky. Web site person.

[SDG]

I saw you got the boot. I'm glad you are here posting.

Essentially for saying Good Night Boyz .... :bliss

I feel so free I could dance ....

CLICK HERE TO DANCE W/ ME (http://respiracreative.com/music/shackles.mp3)

[Praxeas]

I saw you got the boot. I'm glad you are here posting.
lol...a rather unceremonious departure..:drawguns

[SDG]

Are you sure Shane West in part of it? He is UPC I think.

He aint UPCI anymore ... or at least not for long ... have you seen his church website and belief statement .... especially the Salvation clause.

[LadyChocolate]

You may thinking of someone else. There is a Shane West preacher out of a Church in Indiana or Kentucky. Web site person.

well, i know that shane west who started the church in clarkesville tn...i recognize him from his website...that's the one i was thinking of. Is there another?/

[OneTruth]

He aint UPCI anymore ... or at least not for long ... have you seen his church website and belief statement .... especially the Salvation clause.

No. Why? I think he was ultracon one upon a time.

[SDG]

One and the same .... www.churchofchampions.com (http://www.churchofchampions.com) and shanewest.com (http://www.shanewest.com) ... his handiwork

[CountryRev]

No. Why? I think he was ultracon one upon a time.

I've never heard or thought that.

[LadyChocolate]

It probably depended on which group he was preaching for at the time. (Shane West)

[SDG]

I know of couple of evangelists who tailor their messages based on the group .... all about the BENJAMINS???

[Praxeas]

Champion Ministries & Church of Champions is not associated with any other church, organization, and or affiliation.
The Champion Logo ™ is the property of Shane West. Copyright © 2006 Champion Ministries, Inc. All rights reserved

[OneTruth]

I've never heard or thought that.

He used to preach for a Brother in Lousiana that is ultra. Maybe name Cox? Doesn't believe in tv/internet. West was pretty tough there.

I looked in his site but didn't see any thing that would say not upc or on his way out. What says that? You mean just by the pictures?

[OneTruth]

Champion Ministries & Church of Champions is not associated with any other church, organization, and or affiliation.
The Champion Logo ™ is the property of Shane West. Copyright © 2006 Champion Ministries, Inc. All rights reserved

Thats it? Don't mean anything but belongs to Champion/west to me.

[SDG]

FROM CHURCH BELIEF STATEMENT:

Salvation

We believe that Jesus Christ, by His sufferings, by the shedding of His own blood, and by His death on the Cross, made a full atonement for all human sin, and that this Atonement is the only ground of salvation! We believe that repentance, which is a sincere and thorough change of the mind in regard to sin, involving a sense of personal guilt and a voluntary turning away from sin, is demanded of all who have by act or purpose become sinners against God. The Spirit of God gives to all who will repent the gracious help of penitence of heart and hope of mercy, that they may believe unto pardon and spiritual life, walking in obedience to the Word of God.

Water Baptism
Christians are people who believe that the blood of Jesus Christ, shed on the cross, provides the sole basis for the forgiveness of sin. Therefore, salvation occurs only when a person places his or her faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the sufficient payment for his or her sin. The Church of Champions believe that all believers, in obedience to God’s Word are to be baptized by immersion in the Name of The Lord, thus being buried with Christ in baptism, which was commanded by our Lord Jesus Christ himself, being a command signifying acceptance of the benefits of the atonement and faith in Jesus Christ.

[SDG]

His name does not come up in UPCI ministers search ...

https://wec.upci.org/ministers/default.asp

[Praxeas]

Thats it? Don't mean anything but belongs to Champion/west to me.
No it specifically says his church and ministry is not associated with any group or church

[Praxeas]

FROM CHURCH BELIEF STATEMENT:

Salvation

We believe that Jesus Christ, by His sufferings, by the shedding of His own blood, and by His death on the Cross, made a full atonement for all human sin, and that this Atonement is the only ground of salvation! We believe that repentance, which is a sincere and thorough change of the mind in regard to sin, involving a sense of personal guilt and a voluntary turning away from sin, is demanded of all who have by act or purpose become sinners against God. The Spirit of God gives to all who will repent the gracious help of penitence of heart and hope of mercy, that they may believe unto pardon and spiritual life, walking in obedience to the Word of God.

Water Baptism
Christians are people who believe that the blood of Jesus Christ, shed on the cross, provides the sole basis for the forgiveness of sin. Therefore, salvation occurs only when a person places his or her faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the sufficient payment for his or her sin. The Church of Champions believe that all believers, in obedience to God’s Word are to be baptized by immersion in the Name of The Lord, thus being buried with Christ in baptism, which was commanded by our Lord Jesus Christ himself, being a command signifying acceptance of the benefits of the atonement and faith in Jesus Christ.

I wonder if he is saying he believes everyone is saved at the moment of repentance

[OneTruth]

FROM CHURCH BELIEF STATEMENT:

Salvation

We believe that Jesus Christ, by His sufferings, by the shedding of His own blood, and by His death on the Cross, made a full atonement for all human sin, and that this Atonement is the only ground of salvation! We believe that repentance, which is a sincere and thorough change of the mind in regard to sin, involving a sense of personal guilt and a voluntary turning away from sin, is demanded of all who have by act or purpose become sinners against God. The Spirit of God gives to all who will repent the gracious help of penitence of heart and hope of mercy, that they may believe unto pardon and spiritual life, walking in obedience to the Word of God.

Water Baptism
Christians are people who believe that the blood of Jesus Christ, shed on the cross, provides the sole basis for the forgiveness of sin. Therefore, salvation occurs only when a person places his or her faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the sufficient payment for his or her sin. The Church of Champions believe that all believers, in obedience to God’s Word are to be baptized by immersion in the Name of The Lord, thus being buried with Christ in baptism, which was commanded by our Lord Jesus Christ himself, being a command signifying acceptance of the benefits of the atonement and faith in Jesus Christ.


I guess I am just missing something because I think that sounds UPC too.

[SDG]

This is a PCI statement ... PRAX ... no doubt ...

[OneTruth]

This is a PCI statement ... PRAX ... no doubt ...

PCI? Means what?

[LadyChocolate]

I guess I am just missing something because I think that sounds UPC too.

maybe you should call him up and ask him????:heeheehee :heeheehee let him know he was heavily discussed on the internet!!!:heeheehee jk

[SDG]

I guess I am just missing something because I think that sounds UPC too.

This statement is antithetical to the Affirmation statement ...
A careful examination shows

1. No mention of Acts 2:38
2. Salvation is made available at repentance ... through faith
3. No mention of Jesus name baptism ... only name of the Lord
4. Water baptism does not bring remission of sins according to this statement
5. Baptism is an act of obedience

[OneTruth]

This statement is antithetical to the Affirmation statement ...
A careful examination shows

1. No mention of Acts 2:38
2. Salvation is made available at repentance ... through faith
3. No mention of Jesus name baptism ... only name of the Lord
4. Water baptism does not bring remission of sins according to this statement
5. Baptism is an act of obedience

Still debatable I think. But I can see how it sounds like you say. So if he has teamed up with KPhillips and Huchins to do a TV thing is that what they believe too? I thought PCI was initials for a group like UPC.

In my neck of the woods Acts 2:38 just wasn't debatable. You believed it or not.

[SDG]

No ... I think there is a divergent view ... Phillips is very PAJC ... I still dont have a handle on Hutchin soteriological views although our church belief statement is similars to West's ... also those who are joining the New Church Order are not all Acts 2:38 folks.

[OneTruth]

So basically they believe that people can be saved outside of Acts 2 38?

[SDG]

Still debatable I think. But I can see how it sounds like you say. So if he has teamed up with KPhillips and Huchins to do a TV thing is that what they believe too? I thought PCI was initials for a group like UPC.

In my neck of the woods Acts 2:38 just wasn't debatable. You believed it or not.

PCI refers to the Pentecostal Church Incorporated .... which merged with the PAJC to form the UPCI .... some in the PCI did not hold the tradtional Acts 2:38 postion ... for more info go to:

Christianity without the Cross (http://books.google.com/books?id=GmztAtSwxMkC&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=pci+view+upci+pajc&source=web&ots=dy9wcVmELG&sig=i8agdVvbmo7tF2etTD6gf8vcYBQ#PPA75,M1)

[OneTruth]

No ... I think there is a divergent view ... Phillips is very PAJC ... I still dont have a handle on Hutchin soteriological views although our church belief statement is similars to West's ... also those who are joining the New Church Order are not all Acts 2:38 folks.

I will say this much. When I saw KPhillips he was a very nice man. He seemed to bereal. Huchins was a little different but not in a bad way. West was there in LA but a long time ago. I don't remember much of him.

[Coonskinner]

FROM CHURCH BELIEF STATEMENT:

Salvation

We believe that Jesus Christ, by His sufferings, by the shedding of His own blood, and by His death on the Cross, made a full atonement for all human sin, and that this Atonement is the only ground of salvation! We believe that repentance, which is a sincere and thorough change of the mind in regard to sin, involving a sense of personal guilt and a voluntary turning away from sin, is demanded of all who have by act or purpose become sinners against God. The Spirit of God gives to all who will repent the gracious help of penitence of heart and hope of mercy, that they may believe unto pardon and spiritual life, walking in obedience to the Word of God.

Water Baptism
Christians are people who believe that the blood of Jesus Christ, shed on the cross, provides the sole basis for the forgiveness of sin. Therefore, salvation occurs only when a person places his or her faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the sufficient payment for his or her sin. The Church of Champions believe that all believers, in obedience to God’s Word are to be baptized by immersion in the Name of The Lord, thus being buried with Christ in baptism, which was commanded by our Lord Jesus Christ himself, being a command signifying acceptance of the benefits of the atonement and faith in Jesus Christ.

So Brother Wendell doesn't believe it takes the full New Birth to be saved anymore?

Has Suber also accepted this?

[The Dean]

So Brother Wendell doesn't believe it takes the full New Birth to be saved anymore?

Has Suber also accepted this?

Your up awfully late tonight! Or awfully early this morning.

[Coonskinner]

No ... I think there is a divergent view ... Phillips is very PAJC ... I still dont have a handle on Hutchin soteriological views although our church belief statement is similars to West's ... also those who are joining the New Church Order are not all Acts 2:38 folks.

You attend his church but you don't "have a a handle" on what he thinks it takes to be saved?

Come on!

What kind of deal is that?

I'll promise you that anybody who somes where I pastor a time or two will have no doubt about my "soteriolgical views."

What in the world is a church for if not for helping people get saved?

How long have you been going to that church and not really knowing what your pastor believes about the plan of salvation? What is he preaching and teaching, if he never makes his "soteriological views" clear enough to "get a handle" on?

That is one of the most bizarre statements I have ever read.

[Coonskinner]

Your up awfully late tonight! Or awfully early this morning.


Thou sayest. :)

Actually I went to bed fairly early and woke up a while ago unable to sleep.

[philjones]

No ... I think there is a divergent view ... Phillips is very PAJC ... I still dont have a handle on Hutchin soteriological views although our church belief statement is similars to West's ... also those who are joining the New Church Order are not all Acts 2:38 folks.

Nor are they all Oneness! I have also found a weakening of the PAJC position in Bro. Phillips statements lately.

I am watching the NCO closely. As a moderately conservative independent that past life circumstances have disqualified from ministerial fellowship in the UPCI or con/ultra con camps, i am always looking for opportunities to fellowship and the NCO appears to be a possibility.

I will continue to watch.

[Barb]

PCI refers to the Pentecostal Church Incorporated .... which merged with the PAJC to form the UPCI .... some in the PCI did not hold the tradtional Acts 2:38 postion ... for more info go to:

Christianity without the Cross (http://books.google.com/books?id=GmztAtSwxMkC&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=pci+view+upci+pajc&source=web&ots=dy9wcVmELG&sig=i8agdVvbmo7tF2etTD6gf8vcYBQ#PPA75,M1)

By the bolded statment above do you mean that they weren't of the PAJC belief or they didn't hold to Acts 2:38 at all?! It has been proven over and over that they did preach and teach baptism and Spirit infilling...

[philjones]

By the bolded statment above do you mean that they weren't of the PAJC belief or they didn't hold to Acts 2:38 at all?! It has been proven over and over that they did preach and teach baptism and Spirit infilling...

Sis. Barb,

It appears to me that he is referring to the PCI position that salvation occurs at repentance and anyone who is saved will be baptized and will be filled with the Holy Ghost.

[SDG]

You attend his church but you don't "have a a handle" on what he thinks it takes to be saved?

Come on!

What kind of deal is that?

I'll promise you that anybody who somes where I pastor a time or two will have no doubt about my "soteriolgical views."

What in the world is a church for if not for helping people get saved?

How long have you been going to that church and not really knowing what your pastor believes about the plan of salvation? What is he preaching and teaching, if he never makes his "soteriological views" clear enough to "get a handle" on?

That is one of the most bizarre statements I have ever read.

CS,

What is bizarre is that you have tried to beat this horse before :beatdeadhorse ....

If you would like to know what the church states as its beliefs .... it's spelled out clearly ... http://champ.org/info.asp?cid=9
(http://champ.org/info.asp?cid=9)


BTW, there are folks coming to Christ at our church weekly .... Many are being restored through Emmaus (http://champ.org/info.asp?cid=62)....

I have been attending since mid November of last year.... and they believe and preach Acts 2:38, and the rest of the Bible too.

I've also realized that not all churches have an Acts 2:38 parade every week .... to reaffirm just one of the many truths about God.

I have not attended our visitor's class .... since I've been saved since 1981 .... but if you would like me to forward you a copy .... I could.

[SDG]

Nor are they all Oneness! I have also found a weakening of the PAJC position in Bro. Phillips statements lately.

I am watching the NCO closely. As a moderately conservative independent that past life circumstances have disqualified from ministerial fellowship in the UPCI or con/ultra con camps, i am always looking for opportunities to fellowship and the NCO appears to be a possibility.

I will continue to watch.

We had a wonderful and diverse Christmas banquet ... you would've loved it .... I have joined ... this loose fellowship ....

[SDG]

So Brother Wendell doesn't believe it takes the full New Birth to be saved anymore?

Has Suber also accepted this?

The statement you quoted was from Shane West's church website.

[Ronzo]

I have also found a weakening of the PAJC position in Bro. Phillips statements lately.
You'll be happy to know that he still believes that if you don't have the Holy Ghost (IOW: speak in tongues) you're going to split the gates of hell wide open with your deep fried carcass.


He also believes that if you leave 'his church' you left God.

[SDG]

More of Pastor Suber teaching on the Prophetic [Issachar Institute] on Saturday Feb 17,2007 at 9 am CST

CLICK HERE TO VIEW (http://www.streamingfaith.com/directory/network.aspx?nsn=Acts29TV&bhcp=1)

[Coonskinner]

The statement you quoted was from Shane West's church website.

The Church of Champions is mentioned in the quote--

FROM CHURCH BELIEF STATEMENT:

Salvation

We believe that Jesus Christ, by His sufferings, by the shedding of His own blood, and by His death on the Cross, made a full atonement for all human sin, and that this Atonement is the only ground of salvation! We believe that repentance, which is a sincere and thorough change of the mind in regard to sin, involving a sense of personal guilt and a voluntary turning away from sin, is demanded of all who have by act or purpose become sinners against God. The Spirit of God gives to all who will repent the gracious help of penitence of heart and hope of mercy, that they may believe unto pardon and spiritual life, walking in obedience to the Word of God.

Water Baptism
Christians are people who believe that the blood of Jesus Christ, shed on the cross, provides the sole basis for the forgiveness of sin. Therefore, salvation occurs only when a person places his or her faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the sufficient payment for his or her sin. The Church of Champions believe that all believers, in obedience to God’s Word are to be baptized by immersion in the Name of The Lord, thus being buried with Christ in baptism, which was commanded by our Lord Jesus Christ himself, being a command signifying acceptance of the benefits of the atonement and faith in Jesus Christ.

Is there a mix of quotes from two different sites strung together?

[Coonskinner]

CS,

What is bizarre is that you have tried to beat this horse before :beatdeadhorse ....

If you would like to know what the church states as its beliefs .... it's spelled out clearly ... http://champ.org/info.asp?cid=9
(http://champ.org/info.asp?cid=9)


BTW, there are folks coming to Christ at our church weekly .... Many are being restored through Emmaus (http://champ.org/info.asp?cid=62)....

I have been attending since mid November of last year.... and they believe and preach Acts 2:38, and the rest of the Bible too.

I've also realized that not all churches have an Acts 2:38 parade every week .... to reaffirm just one of the many truths about God.

I have not attended our visitor's class .... since I've been saved since 1981 .... but if you would like me to forward you a copy .... I could.

Dan,

You said you attend this man's church, but don't have a handle on his soteriological beliefs.

You don't see what a completely bizarre statement that is?

How does that happen?

[SDG]

The Church of Champions is mentioned in the quote--



Is there a mix of quotes from two different sites strung together?

Both Churches, one in TN and the other in TX .... have the same name.

[Coonskinner]

Both Churches one in TN and the other in TX .... have the same name.

I see. Thanks for the clarification.

[SDG]

Dan,

You said you attend this man's church, but don't have a handle on his soteriological beliefs.

You don't see what a completely bizarre statement that is?

How does that happen?

Sir I dont have a complete handle on his soteriological views .... it is possible to attend a church and not know every detail of someone's eschatological, hamartiological, etc.

I know he teaches the Bible ... and bible salvation ... He also stresses our salvation is not a one-stop .... or a 3 stop shop .... but a relationship with Jesus Christ ...

I will not attend a church that only stresses God's salvation as a magic pill.

[Coonskinner]

Sir I dont have a complete handle on his soteriological views .... it is possible to attend a church and not know every detail of someone's eschatological, hamartiological, etc.

I know he teaches the Bible ... and bible salvation ... He also stresses our salvation is not a one-stop .... or a 3 stop shop .... but a relationship with Jesus Christ ...

I will not attend a church that only stresses God's salvation as a magic pill.


Eschatology is one thing, but salvation is absolutely basic.

I don't know anybody that preaches salvation as a magic pill, or that doesn't teach that relationship is necessary.

There is obviously a great gulf between philosophical viewpoints regarding the plan of salvation when it comes to WH and most of the Apostolic movement.

[SDG]

Eschatology is one thing, but salvation is absolutely basic.

I don't know anybody that preaches salvation as a magic pill, or that doesn't teach that relationship is necessary.

There is obviously a great gulf between philosophical viewpoints regarding the plan of salvation when it comes to WH and most of the Apostolic movement.

Perhaps you're not looking close enough ... CS ... or refuse to examine how some in the Apostolic movement are teaching salvation ... or perhaps you would rather continue to focus on WH.

[Coonskinner]

Perhaps you're not looking close enough ... CS ... or refuse to examine how some in the Apostolic movement are teaching salvation ... or perhaps you would rather continue to focus on WH.

You know, I never think about WH except when I read about him on here.

I know how I and the men I fellowship teach salvation.

And you don't have to hire a private investigator with the gift of discernment to figure out what we believe it takes to be saved.

[SDG]

You're absolutely right, CS some are very clear in their condemnation filled preaching of salvation. ... Some are teaching the Holy Ghost as an admission ticket and not a gift or promise ....

[Coonskinner]

You're absolutely right, CS some are very clear in their condemnation filled preaching of salvation. ... Some are teaching the Holy Ghost as an admission ticket and not a gift or promise ....

Nice barb hidden in the broad brush there. :)

So you imply that any man who doesn't sneak up on folks with the message is preaching a condemnation filled message?

LOL!

As to preaching the HG as an admission ticket, hogwash. I have NEVER done that, and have always stressed that the New Birth is the starter's gun, not the finish line.

But you are not even in the Kingdom until you are born of water and Spirit, and people deserve to know that.

Jesus certainly didn't beat around the bush with Nicodemus.

[SDG]

I echo your beliefs of John 3.

[rrford]

Nice barb hidden in the broad brush there. :)

So you imply that any man who doesn't sneak up on folks with the message is preaching a condemnation filled message?

LOL!

As to preaching the HG as an admission ticket, hogwash. I have NEVER done that, and have always stressed that the New Birth is the starter's gun, not the finish line.

But you are not even in the Kingdom until you are born of water and Spirit, and people deserve to know that.

Jesus certainly didn't beat around the bush with Nicodemus.

Bro. You gotta remember these guys think they are the only ones who khow to "Correctly" preach salvation. The evil UPC crams it down peoples throats.

[SDG]

The inverse may be true?

[Coonskinner]

Bro. You gotta remember these guys think they are the only ones who khow to "Correctly" preach salvation. The evil UPC crams it down peoples throats.

I'm growing in my enlightenment.

I guess I am just not "Champion Material."

[SDG]

CS you are more than a Champion ...

[rrford]

The inverse may be true?

Perhaps there are some on both sides of this that feel as has been expressed?

[CC1]

Bro. You gotta remember these guys think they are the only ones who khow to "Correctly" preach salvation. The evil UPC crams it down peoples throats.

There is a place between the "evil UPC" method you describe and just reciting the sinner prayer!

[SDG]

Perhaps there are some on both sides of this that feel as has been expressed?

I concur.

[Coonskinner]

CS you are more than a Champion ...

That is very kind of you. :)

(I will take that as a compliment since I really don't know what you mean.)

:bliss :bliss

[CC1]

I'm growing in my enlightenment.

I guess I am just not "Champion Material."

They really need to think some of these church names through or am I the only one who always thinks of the sloagan "Breakfast of Champions!" when I hear that church name? LOL!!!

Of course as a motorcycle enthusiast I am more inclined to like "Triumph Church" although I am a Honda owner.

[rrford]

There is a place between the "evil UPC" method you describe and just reciting the sinner prayer!

And it amazes me how manyh of the men I fellowship have found that place.


Haven't we had this discussion a myriad of times?

[rrford]

They really need to think some of these church names through or am I the only one who always thinks of the sloagan "Breakfast of Champions!" when I hear that church name? LOL!!!

Of course as a motorcycle enthusiast I am more inclined to like "Triumph Church" although I am a Honda owner.

So long as their church theme song is NOT "We Are The Champions." :killinme

[SDG]

That is very kind of you. :)

(I will take that as a compliment since I really don't know what you mean.)

:bliss :bliss

This one's on me ... dont hire a PI with the gift of discernment ....

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. (Romans 8:37 ESV)

[Coonskinner]

So long as their church theme song is NOT "We Are The Champions." :killinme

That would be better than "I Will Survive."

[CC1]

You know, I never think about WH except when I read about him on here.

I know how I and the men I fellowship teach salvation.

And you don't have to hire a private investigator with the gift of discernment to figure out what we believe it takes to be saved.

Even though I visit a lot and try to keep up my many years away from the UPC is really glaring now and then such as about a year ago when I first heard about WH and the Church of Breakfast Champions.

Here is a guy who had one of the most successful UPC churches in Houston and I had never heard about him. The big guys back in my day for Houston were Kilgore, Dees, Fauss, and Mitchell.

Grace Church was then a church of around 200-300 in Humble and I didn't even know about Bro. Green's church. Now those two churches along with the Breakfast church are all exUPC and probably have more members than all of the UPC churches left in the area combined.

[CC1]

So long as their church theme song is NOT "We Are The Champions." :killinme


Great! Now in addition to thinking of breakfast food sloagans that song is going to run through my mind everytime someone mentions this church.:bliss

[SDG]

So long as their church theme song is NOT "We Are The Champions." :killinme

Brother RR was that a request??? .... Queen is in the house to bless you ...

http://respiracreative.com/champ.mp3

[CC1]

And it amazes me how manyh of the men I fellowship have found that place.


Haven't we had this discussion a myriad of times?


Leave Myriad out of this. She has nothing to do with it!!!!!:killinme

[rrford]

Even though I visit a lot and try to keep up my many years away from the UPC is really glaring now and then such as about a year ago when I first heard about WH and the Church of Breakfast Champions.

Here is a guy who had one of the most successful UPC churches in Houston and I had never heard about him. The big guys back in my day for Houston were Kilgore, Dees, Fauss, and Mitchell.

Grace Church was then a church of around 200-300 in Humble and I didn't even know about Bro. Green's church. Now those two churches along with the Breakfast church are all exUPC and probably have more members than all of the UPC churches left in the area combined.

CC1, I am laughing out loud right here about your post. COC may be larger than some of the UPC in Houston but they can thank the Hoover Method of Evangelism for that.

Further, well...never mind.

[CC1]

Brother RR was that a request??? .... Queen is in the house to bless you ...

http://respiracreative.com/champ.mp3



Now that Freddie Mercury was a "man's man" if you know what I mean!:killinme

[SDG]

CC1, I am laughing out loud right here about your post. COC may be larger than some of the UPC in Houston but they can thank the Hoover Method of Evangelism for that.

Further, well...never mind.

Is that a Holy-Ghost filled barb??? :killinme

[rrford]

Brother RR was that a request??? .... Queen is in the house to bless you ...

http://respiracreative.com/champ.mp3


I can assure you my blessings come from the King and if Queen starts singing and handing out blessings it is time to find a different church.

[Coonskinner]

Even though I visit a lot and try to keep up my many years away from the UPC is really glaring now and then such as about a year ago when I first heard about WH and the Church of Breakfast Champions.

Here is a guy who had one of the most successful UPC churches in Houston and I had never heard about him. The big guys back in my day for Houston were Kilgore, Dees, Fauss, and Mitchell.

Grace Church was then a church of around 200-300 in Humble and I didn't even know about Bro. Green's church. Now those two churches along with the Breakfast church are all exUPC and probably have more members than all of the UPC churches left in the area combined.

Speaking of "Breakfast of Champions," I was doing some personal evangelism a while back by going fishing with a guy who is as rough as they come.

He has been something of a local legend in the barroom brawling department, and is extremely uncouth.

But he likes me for some reason and even calls me "Brother Carroll," though I have never tried to encourage anything like that.

Anyway, I met him at a farm pond where we had permission early one morning, about 6:30 AM.

While I was making my first cast, he opened his cooler, pulled out a Budweiser, popped the top, and drained it in one big chug-a-lug.

Sighing with satisfaction, he grinned at me and said, "The breakfast of champions." :killinme

[rrford]

Is that a Holy-Ghost filled barb??? :killinme

Nah. Just a pragmatic and correct assessment.

[SDG]

Nah. Just a pragmatic and correct assessment.

God bless the SPIN :heeheehee

[Coonskinner]

God bless the SPIN :heeheehee

No spin.

[CC1]

CC1, I am laughing out loud right here about your post. COC may be larger than some of the UPC in Houston but they can thank the Hoover Method of Evangelism for that.

Further, well...never mind.


Could be true as I know nothing about them. However my experience is that people don't come unless they want to.

I think a lot of UPC folks no longer believe the legislated standards,etc and churches like Grace in Humble and COC are natural fits for those folks tired of the condemnation and judgmentalism.

I know of a church where the leadership had changed their views long before the church did but were afraid to take any public stands or change the church because several of the most affluent church members were pretty conservative. This went on for a couple of years but when they finally went with their convictions their church has been extraordinarily successful and grown and been blessed. I don't know if they lost the rich folks they were worried about or not but if they did God has certainly replaced them many times over.

[SDG]

http://mvp-seattle.com/Images/JPEGlibrary/ImageLib9/oReillyCropped.jpg

THE SPIN STOPS HERE!!!!

[CC1]

Speaking of "Breakfast of Champions," I was doing some personal evangelism a while back by going fishing with a guy who is as rough as they come.

He has been something of a local legend in the barroom brawling department, and is extremely uncouth.

But he likes me for some reason and even calls me "Brother Carroll," though I have never tried to encourage anything like that.

Anyway, I met him at a farm pond where we had permission early one morning, about 6:30 AM.

While I was making my first cast, he opened his cooler, pulled out a Budweiser, popped the top, and drained it in one big chug-a-lug.

Sighing with satisfaction, he grinned at me and said, "The breakfast of champions." :killinme

If he is single I have a sister in law he needs to meet. Sounds like they have similar taste in breakfast. Hers is not beer though. She prefers wine and / or vodka.

[Coonskinner]

If he is single I have a sister in law he needs to meet. Sounds like they have similar taste in breakfast. Hers is not beer though. She prefers wine and / or vodka.

He is currently married for the eighth time.

Of course, he was married to one lady twice--she was #3 and #5 I believe.

She was also his dad's half-sister.

No kidding. :)

[SDG]

He is currently married for the eighth time.

Of course, he was married to one lady twice--she was #3 and #5 I believe.

She was also his dad's half-sister.

No kidding. :)

Man ... you gotta love the South!!!!!!!! :drawguns

[Coonskinner]

Man ... you gotta love the South!!!!!!!! :drawguns

This is actually a Kansas story.

[Ronzo]

This is actually a Kansas story.
Kansas is 'the south' to one originally from NY.

[SDG]

To a city slicker like I anything out of New York ... is the South ... including the Midwest.

[SDG]

Kansas is 'the south' to one originally from NY.

Ah my BRUTHA ... HAS ARRIVED!!!! :highfive

[Ronzo]

Ah my BRUTHA ... HAS ARRIVED!!!! :highfive
Ay-yo Danny! Di'ju kawl fuh ya goonbah ova'eeah? Yo. Ah'm eeah.

Fuggheddabowdit!

[SDG]

Yeah Gumbah... I wuz bein' attacked by some mountain lookin fella.

[rrford]

Yeah Gumbah... I wuz bein' attacked by some mountain lookin fella.

Daniel, I feel sorry for you if you think that was an attack by the mountaijn feller.:killinme

To me it was him pushing the dog away from the fire so's he could stoke a few more pieces of wood.

[CC1]

He is currently married for the eighth time.

Of course, he was married to one lady twice--she was #3 and #5 I believe.

She was also his dad's half-sister.

No kidding. :)


You didn't mention he was from Tennessee!!!!:heeheehee

[SDG]

Daniel, I feel sorry for you if you think that was an attack by the mountaijn feller.:killinme

To me it was him pushing the dog away from the fire so's he could stoke a few more pieces of wood.

Please don't feel sorry for me ... my Daddy has given me power too.

[The Dean]

Could be true as I know nothing about them. However my experience is that people don't come unless they want to.

I think a lot of UPC folks no longer believe the legislated standards,etc and churches like Grace in Humble and COC are natural fits for those folks tired of the condemnation and judgmentalism.

I know of a church where the leadership had changed their views long before the church did but were afraid to take any public stands or change the church because several of the most affluent church members were pretty conservative. This went on for a couple of years but when they finally went with their convictions their church has been extraordinarily successful and grown and been blessed. I don't know if they lost the rich folks they were worried about or not but if they did God has certainly replaced them many times over.

In the Houston area one would not have to run outside of the UPC to find Churches that don't preach what you would consider condemnation and judgmentalism.

[Ronzo]

Daniel, I feel sorry for you if you think that was an attack by the mountaijn feller.:killinme

To me it was him pushing the dog away from the fire so's he could stoke a few more pieces of wood.
The dog, huh?

Nice.

[SDG]

If you want talk about Holiness in this culture today talk about money. - Suber, today.

[SDG]

If Calvary was all ... would it be enough? - Suber, today.

[OneTruth]

Both Churches, one in TN and the other in TX .... have the same name.

Now i'm even more confused but maybe I'm getting it clearer now. KPhilips, Huchins and West are in the same organization starting a Acts something TV ministry. Huchins and West church are same name. Are the two churches with same name like mother church and home missions from there?

[stmatthew]

If Calvary was all ... would it be enough? - Suber, today.

What was his answer?

[SDG]

What was his answer?

It is a question to the American church ... us included my brother?

[stmatthew]

It is a question to the American church ... us included my brother?


Why??

The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. So the answer is NO, Calvary of and by itself would not be enough.

The bible speaks of a trumpet making an uncertain sound. This question in and of itself causes red flags to fly high as far as to whether the person asking the question really knows the basic doctrine of the gospel message.

[Felicity]

Red flags also fly high when you say a person will spend eternity in hell because they haven't spoken in tongues.

[Whole Hearted]

any one who hasn't spoken in tongues doesn't have the Holy Ghost and are lost. Anyone without the Spirit are none of His.

[stmatthew]

Red flags also fly high when you say a person will spend eternity in hell because they haven't spoken in tongues.


Only to those that do not believe it.

But the point is, if someone is stating that Calvary alone is sufficient (just assuming this was the direction of the question), then they are denying part of the gospel itself, and totally doing away with the burial and resurrection as being important for our salvation.

[Praxeas]

The Church of Champions is mentioned in the quote--



Is there a mix of quotes from two different sites strung together?
No, those were in fact from Shane Wests website. He calls is new church Church of Champions

[Praxeas]

They really need to think some of these church names through or am I the only one who always thinks of the sloagan "Breakfast of Champions!" when I hear that church name? LOL!!!

Of course as a motorcycle enthusiast I am more inclined to like "Triumph Church" although I am a Honda owner.
click this link and enjoy your breakfast
http://www.shanewest.com/

[philjones]

There is a place between the "evil UPC" method you describe and just reciting the sinner prayer!

Some call that place false doctrine!:killinme :killinme :killinme

JK JK

[berkeley]

Some call that place false doctrine!:killinme :killinme :killinme

JK JK
lol

[rrford]

The dog, huh?

Nice.

It was only a reference point and not all intended to imply that Daniel was a dog.

[SDG]

Bow wow???

[OneTruth]

click this link and enjoy your breakfast
http://www.shanewest.com/

Kind of weirds me out to see in the breakfast of champion stuff.

[MrsMcD]

Is this the same seminar where they were talking about manipulation being the same as witch craft? I think that was taught on Saturday. I know of a few UPC churches that did the conference through satellite.

[Defender]

I could be wrong but I think the Houston COC is actually Church of Champion (no "s"). Named after the community in which it is located.

[Ronzo]

I could be wrong but I think the Houston COC is actually Church of Champion (no "s"). Named after the community in which it is located.
http://www.champ.org/

That's not what is on the site, friend.

[Nahum]

Would someone please explain the following to me:

Is Jack Dehart and his group still Oneness?
Do they promote and/or tolerate trinitarianism as a valid view?
Do they believe the Acts 2:38 doctrine as the salvation plan, or are they now in the "easy believism" crowd?

[SDG]

http://www.champ.org/

That's not what is on the site, friend.

You both are right and wrong ... the church and community ARE called CHAMPIONS

[Ronzo]

You both are right and wrong ... the church and community is called CHAMPIONS
How dare you tell me I'm wrong!

:drawguns





















:heeheehee

[CC1]

Would someone please explain the following to me:

Is Jack Dehart and his group still Oneness?
Do they promote and/or tolerate trinitarianism as a valid view?
Do they believe the Acts 2:38 doctrine as the salvation plan, or are they now in the "easy believism" crowd?

1. Global (GNCM) is not exclusively "Oneness" although may of it's members are Oneness and previously UPC.

2. I think it is safe to say that most members of Global "tolerate" trinitarianism as a valid view, that none of us have perfect understanding of God. That is not to say they don't have differences in their view of the Godhead than trinitarians but that they don't see those differences as making trinitarians not Christian or polytheistic.

3. Easy believism but still baptizing in Jesus name and believing in the baptism of the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues as an empowerment subsequent to salvation.

The above is just my opinoin of what they believe based on my knowledge. I am sure there are a lot of different views within Global.

[SDG]

1. Global (GNCM) is not exclusively "Oneness" although may of it's members are Oneness and previously UPC.

2. I think it is safe to say that most members of Global "tolerate" trinitarianism as a valid view, that none of us have perfect understanding of God. That is not to say they don't have differences in their view of the Godhead than trinitarians but that they don't see those differences as making trinitarians not Christian or polytheistic.

3. Easy believism but still baptizing in Jesus name and believing in the baptism of the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues as an empowerment subsequent to salvation.

The above is just my opinoin of what they believe based on my knowledge. I am sure there are a lot of different views within Global.

Are you bold enough to say that us Oneness folks dont have God all figured out ??? Cmon CC ... WE GOT THE TRUTH ....

[CC1]

Are you bold enough to say that us Oneness folks dont have God all figured out ??? Cmon CC ... WE GOT THE TRUTH ....


Yup. Got it and camped on it!!! It became the be all and end all of many's Christianity.:beatdeadhorse

[SDG]

Hey CC ...Im thinking of writing a book entitled .....

Having Truth: The New Graven Image

WATCHA THINK???

[CC1]

Hey CC ...Im thinking of writing a book entitled .....

Having Truth: The New Graven Image

WATCHA THINK???

Growing up in old time Pentecost I can remember as a child being amazed at how quickly OP's were to talk about other people being caught up in their "traditions" when OP's are the worlds worst at that.

Back in the 70's Kenneth Phllips used to preach a great sermon about the idea of church restoration throughout history. How that each group camped on it's distinctives. The Lutherans for saved by grace, priesthood of the believer,baptists for baptism, etc,etc. Of course OP's are as bad as the rest by camping on their understanding of the Godhead, Jesus name baptism, and the legalism.

[rrford]

Growing up in old time Pentecost I can remember as a child being amazed at how quickly OP's were to talk about other people being caught up in their "traditions" when OP's are the worlds worst at that.

Back in the 70's Kenneth Phllips used to preach a great sermon about the idea of church restoration throughout history. How that each group camped on it's distinctives. The Lutherans for saved by grace, priesthood of the believer,baptists for baptism, etc,etc. Of course OP's are as bad as the rest by camping on their understanding of the Godhead, Jesus name baptism, and the legalism.

And ex-UPC folks by their newfound liberty. (Everyone has something.)

[SDG]

Hey RR ... maybe you should come and join us .... nah!!!!... but let's dance this one anyway....

http://respiracreative.com/music/shackles.mp3

[Debra]

Shane West ....

fly site made by him..... http://www.churchofchampions.com/


I've heard Bro. West preach before...several times, in fact....I can't believe he would now believe anything less than the ENTIRE Acts 2:38 salvation....From the way I heard him preach, he used to be a trinitarian preacher and then saw the Oneness of God....I don't see how you could ever believe anything less....although I know it happens.....The plan of salvation, Act 2:38, baptism in Jesus Name, the filling of the HolyGhost by evidence of speaking in tongues is all wrapped around the Oneness of God....

I hope he hasn't gone that way, but I know of many, many that have...But I've also heard that when you let go of holiness, or "standards" that you will eventually let go of your doctine and embrace trinitarian doctrine....I've seen that also....may not always be right but often it is....

[Felicity]

And ex-UPC folks by their newfound liberty. (Everyone has something.)Not necessarily. ;)

[SDG]

Miss Pastor's Suber's message ?????... this is a clip

Want to carry home a piece of the Revolution? Below is an excerpt from Issachar Institute Broadcast over the Acts 29tv Network!

Pastor Suber speaks about the Revolution and you can download it now, view it whenever you want, send it to friends, family and peers. Share it with whomever you wish!

The file is in Apple Quicktime format and can be view using the free player available from Apple.


Right-click on the link below and choose Save As to download the video to your computer.


Acts29tv Network - Issachar Institute- 6.47 Mb (http://www.newchurchorder.com/images/stories/video/acts29_feb_issachar.mov)