Perplexed!

[StillStanding]

I attend a large ex-UPC church. I found out this week that during our Youth Camp this past summer, our youth were baptized in the "titles" instead of "Jesus name" by the youth leaders! In addition to that, each were told to make the sign of the cross after they came out of the water!

Being born and raised in the Apostolic faith, I am spitting nails! Not only are those youth leaders still in place, I'm not sure they were ever reprimanded!

For the first time in years, I'm contemplating a move. Not sure. Someone has some 'splaining to do!:foottap

[mfblume]

Sounds like people going too far on a rebound!

[Timmy]

Dontcha hate it when people go to hell on a technicality? :lol

[houston]

The Catholics infiltrated your church. Bwahahaha.

I have read the statement of faith. Doesn't matter if it's titles or name.

[johnny44]

I attend a large ex-UPC church. I found out this week that during our Youth Camp this past summer, our youth were baptized in the "titles" instead of "Jesus name" by the youth leaders! In addition to that, each were told to make the sign of the cross after they came out of the water!

Being born and raised in the Apostolic faith, I am spitting nails! Not only are those youth leaders still in place, I'm not sure they were ever reprimanded!

For the first time in years, I'm contemplating a move. Not sure. Someone has some 'splaining to do!:foottapIs that what they call returning to our roots.RCC

[Digging4Truth]

Yep... that being true... it's time to bail.

[Ferd]

is this Christ Churh Nashville????

[seguidordejesus]

I'd be out of there. Nothing you can say to them is going to change this.

If this were a business I'd ask for a refund lol

[Sarah]

Well, you know what 'they' say....first the 'holiness' standards go, then the message.

Seriously, I've seen this happen too many times.

[Sister Alvear]

That is very sad....will be praying for you.

[ILG]

Sorry you are disappointed. They shouldn't bait and switch on you especially after you supported them for so long. Does the senior pastor know about this?

Other than that, I agree with Timmy. :)

[Truthseeker]

Well, you know what 'they' say....first the 'holiness' standards go, then the message.

Seriously, I've seen this happen too many times.

Does seem to be the trend.

[aegsm76]

It would be interesting to see what the leadership says to explain this.
Baptizing in the titles is not an abnormal thing for the non-oneness world, but the sign of the cross makes it really weird.

[RandyWayne]

I would think that it wouldn't matter if they were baptizing in the name of Stephen Hawkings as long as the baptized were calling on The Name -but the sign of the cross is a bit weird.

[deltaguitar]

The sign of the cross doesn't bother me. I don't see anything wrong with it. My daughter went to preschool at a Catholic school and she learned that they did this after prayer. It is kind of like saying amen in my view.

I now go to a church that baptizes in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and truthly it doesn't bother me either. Of course, I already had left Oneness doctrine before I started going to that church so it didn't bother me.

Also, there are a few things to think about here. Was it a pastor of the church who was instructing the baptisms? Could it be that baptism in Jesus name only is not taught anymore and maybe students were baptizing each other and used the only phrase they knew?

[houston]

The sign of the cross affirms faith, belief in the holy trinity.

[deltaguitar]

The sign of the cross affirms faith, belief in the holy trinity.

Well, to a lot of the christian world if you don't believe in the trinity you don't believe in the TRUE God of the bible.

[Truthseeker]

I'd check out!

[houston]

Well, to a lot of the christian world if you don't believe in the trinity you don't believe in the TRUE God of the bible.

I couldn't care less about the rest of the christian world.

[StillStanding]

The Catholics infiltrated your church. Bwahahaha.

I have read the statement of faith. Doesn't matter if it's titles or name.

This is from their statement of faith:
... that all of God's people are to be buried with Christ in the waters of baptism, subsequent to conversion. While we freely embrace those of contrary opinion, we feel that this rite is scripturally administered "in the name of the Lord Jesus."

Up until now, ALL baptisms at our church were done "in the name of the Lord Jesus". We didn't necessarily require people to be re-baptized if they had previously been baptized in the titles.

[StillStanding]

Sorry you are disappointed. They shouldn't bait and switch on you especially after you supported them for so long. Does the senior pastor know about this?

Other than that, I agree with Timmy. :)

That is the issue with me. Our church had an identity and doctrine that I was comfortable with. If I were more comfortable in an Anglican or Catholic church, I would be attending those churches instead of where I am.

Both organizations are bringing people to Jesus Christ, but they're not my flavor! I am more comfortable when people are receiving the Holy Ghost and being baptized in "Jesus name". THAT is like 'chocolate" flavoring to me! Leave off the anchovies!!:icecream

[seguidordejesus]

This is completely changing what Christ Church has been - I would seriously either leave or start a letter writing/PR campaign (after, of course, privately discussing it with the appropriate chain of command and exhausting those avenues).

[StillStanding]

is this Christ Churh Nashville????

Yes! :shhh

[Pressing-On]

I've always noticed that when you attend any organization or group, you, invariably, end up trading one thing for another.

[houston]

This is from their statement of faith:
... that all of God's people are to be buried with Christ in the waters of baptism, subsequent to conversion. While we freely embrace those of contrary opinion, we feel that this rite is scripturally administered "in the name of the Lord Jesus."

Up until now, ALL baptisms at our church were done "in the name of the Lord Jesus". We didn't necessarily require people to be re-baptized if they had previously been baptized in the titles.

Right. Embace those of contrary opinion and not require rebaptism, and you're surprised that this happened?

It'd be a safe bet to say that the youth leaders are amongst those that were not rebaptized.

This happens when you quarantine the distinctive doctrines to a classroom setting only.

You have been somewhat dissatisfied for some time. Are they still not emphasising the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

[ILG]

That is the issue with me. Our church had an identity and doctrine that I was comfortable with. If I were more comfortable in an Anglican or Catholic church, I would be attending those churches instead of where I am.

Both organizations are bringing people to Jesus Christ, but they're not my flavor! I am more comfortable when people are receiving the Holy Ghost and being baptized in "Jesus name". THAT is like 'chocolate" flavoring to me! Leave off the anchovies!!:icecream

I think you should have a discussion with the pastor to find out if he knows about this.

[Sherri]

Right. Embace those of contrary opinion and not require rebaptism, and you're surprised that this happened?

It'd be a safe bet to say that the youth leaders are amongst those that were not rebaptized.

This happens when you quarantine the distinctive doctrines to a classroom setting only.

You have been somewhat dissatisfied for some time. Are they still not emphasising the baptism of the Holy Spirit?
This is exactly what our statement of faith says about baptism. We do not think everyone else is going to hell, but everyone knows if you get baptized in our church, you will be baptized in Jesus' name.

[Truthseeker]

To not require rebaptism is to not believe baptism should only be in Jesus name.

[NorCal]

To not require rebaptism is not believe baptism should only be in Jesus name.

Catholics teach that those baptized "In the name of Jesus" are essentially baptized in the "Titles" because, the Father is in the Son who sent the Holy Ghost in His Name - Jesus.

They even teach that the Apostles DID baptize "In the name of Jesus" through out the book of Acts.

Those are things that even our Protestant brothers will not even teach or accept.

[Michael The Disciple]

I've always noticed that when you attend any organization or group, you, invariably, end up trading one thing for another.

So true.

[Cindy]

That is kind of weird.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I attend a large ex-UPC church. I found out this week that during our Youth Camp this past summer, our youth were baptized in the "titles" instead of "Jesus name" by the youth leaders! In addition to that, each were told to make the sign of the cross after they came out of the water!

Being born and raised in the Apostolic faith, I am spitting nails! Not only are those youth leaders still in place, I'm not sure they were ever reprimanded!

For the first time in years, I'm contemplating a move. Not sure. Someone has some 'splaining to do!:foottap


Why are you perplexed?


Do they need to get baptized again the right way now?


Maybe the Sr. Pastor knowingly allowed this to happen because their baptisms using the "Titles" are not invalid.


What apsect of baptism is connected to our salvation?

[houston]

JD also abandoned his Apostolic roots.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Not completely.

I've posted questions, not assertions.

[houston]

where is your post that GOD the Father, GOD the Son, and GOD the Holy Spirit are in the Bible?

[kclee4jc]

If it is not important to be baptized in Jesus name, then what's the big deal. You are saying that someone who was previously baptized in the titles doesnt need to be rebaptized but then they baptize in the titles at your church and your miffed??

I've spoken withe a few leaders in the AoG lately. They are having a problem...they are finding that less and less of their members are receiving the Holy Ghost! Matter of fact they have more in their churches that have never received the Holy Ghost than those that have. Wanna know why? They aren't teaching the importance of receiving the Holy Ghost! Stop teaching that the Holy Ghost is important, people will stop seeking and receiving. Stop teaching baptism in Jesus name, people will stop getting baptized in Jesus name. Stop teaching the combination of the two, souls will be lost with their blood on your hands! You should deffinately find a church that teaches the necessity of Acts 2:38 new birth.

[johnny44]

Catholics teach that those baptized "In the name of Jesus" are essentially baptized in the "Titles" because, the Father is in the Son who sent the Holy Ghost in His Name - Jesus.

They even teach that the Apostles DID baptize "In the name of Jesus" through out the book of Acts.

Those are things that even our Protestant brothers will not even teach or accept.I have a dvd of a excatholic priest who was critical of those who baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

[houston]

If it is not important to be baptized in Jesus name, then what's the big deal. You are saying that someone who was previously baptized in the titles doesnt need to be rebaptized but then they baptize in the titles at your church and your miffed??

I've spoken withe a few leaders in the AoG lately. They are having a problem...they are finding that less and less of their members are receiving the Holy Ghost! Matter of fact they have more in their churches that have never received the Holy Ghost than those that have. Wanna know why? They aren't teaching the importance of receiving the Holy Ghost! Stop teaching that the Holy Ghost is important, people will stop seeking and receiving. Stop teaching baptism in Jesus name, people will stop getting baptized in Jesus name.

I'm PCI Heavy, and I endorse this message.

[Sherri]

We don't "require" people to be rebaptized, but we teach why we do it in Jesus' name and they make that choice according to their understanding of Scripture. We don't teach that everyone else is lost. BUT we have had over 100 already this year baptized in Jesus' name. So people do get it!

We also don't teach that you HAVE to speak in tongues to be saved, but that everyone needs to. The vast majority of our people are Spirit filled, speaking in tongues. We present it as something that everyone needs and should want, and they receive it. We don't make it hard.

[Jermyn Davidson]

where is your post that GOD the Father, GOD the Son, and GOD the Holy Spirit are in the Bible?

What post might that be-- the post that's not posted?

[Jermyn Davidson]

We don't "require" people to be rebaptized, but we teach why we do it in Jesus' name and they make that choice according to their understanding of Scripture. We don't teach that everyone else is lost. BUT we have had over 100 already this year baptized in Jesus' name. So people do get it!

We also don't teach that you HAVE to speak in tongues to be saved, but that everyone needs to. The vast majority of our people are Spirit filled, speaking in tongues. We present it as something that everyone needs and should want, and they receive it. We don't make it hard.

"...faith as a child...."

[houston]

What post might that be-- the post that's not posted?

estupido

[CC1]

Dear Perplexed in Nashville (otherwise known as Mr. Steinway), Give me a call tomorrow! Sounds like we have a lot to discuss. LOL!!!

[kclee4jc]

We don't "require" people to be rebaptized, but we teach why we do it in Jesus' name and they make that choice according to their understanding of Scripture. We don't teach that everyone else is lost. BUT we have had over 100 already this year baptized in Jesus' name. So people do get it!

We also don't teach that you HAVE to speak in tongues to be saved, but that everyone needs to. The vast majority of our people are Spirit filled, speaking in tongues. We present it as something that everyone needs and should want, and they receive it. We don't make it hard.

I don't agree that it is nonessential, but I can appreciate that your teaching it and people are getting it! So many have avoided the subject all together. That breaks my heart. Someday (if continued in the current trend) we will see major Oneness organizations forbid the rebaptism of those who have been baptized in the titles. I did not believe I HAD to receive the Holy Ghost when i got it....but oooh how i craved the power of God in my life. I did not believe that I HAD to be baptized in Jesus name when I was, but I had fallen absolutely in love with the name of Jesus. It was not till later that i began to understand that this is salvation and there is no other way. I don't wanna be mean, but i believe this truth will all of my heart!

[Amanah]

I don't agree that it is nonessential, but I can appreciate that your teaching it and people are getting it! So many have avoided the subject all together. That breaks my heart. Someday (if continued in the current trend) we will see major Oneness organizations forbid the rebaptism of those who have been baptized in the titles. I did not believe I HAD to receive the Holy Ghost when i got it....but oooh how i craved the power of God in my life. I did not believe that I HAD to be baptized in Jesus name when I was, but I had fallen absolutely in love with the name of Jesus. It was not till later that i began to understand that this is salvation and there is no other way. I don't wanna be mean, but i believe this truth will all of my heart!

well said, amen

[pelathais]

If it is not important to be baptized in Jesus name, then what's the big deal. You are saying that someone who was previously baptized in the titles doesnt need to be rebaptized but then they baptize in the titles at your church and your miffed??

I've spoken withe a few leaders in the AoG lately. They are having a problem...they are finding that less and less of their members are receiving the Holy Ghost! Matter of fact they have more in their churches that have never received the Holy Ghost than those that have. Wanna know why? They aren't teaching the importance of receiving the Holy Ghost! Stop teaching that the Holy Ghost is important, people will stop seeking and receiving. Stop teaching baptism in Jesus name, people will stop getting baptized in Jesus name. Stop teaching the combination of the two, souls will be lost with their blood on your hands! You should deffinately find a church that teaches the necessity of Acts 2:38 new birth.

I don't quite follow you here, kclee (bolded above). Do you really think that the Spirit of God can be isolated and bottled up? Do you think the hunger of people for God's Spirit can be completely forgotten?

I think that what your AoG friends are seeing is that certain practices that have been associated with "seeking" and "receiving" have been dropped and so they don't see the snot-slingin' altar sessions that they once did.

The Spirit of God, on the other hand, isn't dependent upon our traditions or expectations. He will move and bless as He sees fit. He is Lord.

[pelathais]

Dear Perplexed in Nashville (otherwise known as Mr. Steinway), Give me a call tomorrow! Sounds like we have a lot to discuss. LOL!!!

Update us all as well. please?

[StillStanding]

We don't "require" people to be rebaptized, but we teach why we do it in Jesus' name and they make that choice according to their understanding of Scripture. We don't teach that everyone else is lost. BUT we have had over 100 already this year baptized in Jesus' name. So people do get it!

We also don't teach that you HAVE to speak in tongues to be saved, but that everyone needs to. The vast majority of our people are Spirit filled, speaking in tongues. We present it as something that everyone needs and should want, and they receive it. We don't make it hard.

:thumbsup

[berkeley]

Dear Perplexed in Nashville (otherwise known as Mr. Steinway), Give me a call tomorrow! Sounds like we have a lot to discuss. LOL!!!

He's busy taping the next season of NCIS.

[deltaguitar]

If it is not important to be baptized in Jesus name, then what's the big deal. You are saying that someone who was previously baptized in the titles doesnt need to be rebaptized but then they baptize in the titles at your church and your miffed??

I've spoken withe a few leaders in the AoG lately. They are having a problem...they are finding that less and less of their members are receiving the Holy Ghost! Matter of fact they have more in their churches that have never received the Holy Ghost than those that have. Wanna know why? They aren't teaching the importance of receiving the Holy Ghost! Stop teaching that the Holy Ghost is important, people will stop seeking and receiving. Stop teaching baptism in Jesus name, people will stop getting baptized in Jesus name. Stop teaching the combination of the two, souls will be lost with their blood on your hands! You should deffinately find a church that teaches the necessity of Acts 2:38 new birth.

In the past few years after leaving the UPC I had some experience with the AOG and COG folks. There are many old time Pentecostals in their group who are still longing for the baptism of the spirit or the revivals of old. I know that a lot of kids are going to "The Ramp" and other revivals where there are manifestations of the spirit.

However, I also run into a lot of young people who have tried Pentecostalism and will accept it among the brethren but don't want to have anything to do with it anymore. The inconsistencies in logic and experience and emotional ups and downs are not something they want in a church service. These are strong christian kids who really want to do right and lead people to Christ who are having less to do with the pentecostal and charismatic movements.

However, on the other hand, I am still friends with many who are constantly searching and pressing and reaching for a promise or blessing or gift that is always out of reach which is a constant in the pentecostal circles.

It just seems to me that we automatically accept that when people stop getting the "baptism" that this is somehow wrong. Is it possible that the church has had so much craziness and fascination with the gifts and manifestations in the last few decades that God is drawing people back to himself and the word. There is a huge movement right now of people being drawn back to orthodoxy and away from the sensational.

[deltaguitar]

I don't quite follow you here, kclee (bolded above). Do you really think that the Spirit of God can be isolated and bottled up? Do you think the hunger of people for God's Spirit can be completely forgotten?

I think that what your AoG friends are seeing is that certain practices that have been associated with "seeking" and "receiving" have been dropped and so they don't see the snot-slingin' altar sessions that they once did.

The Spirit of God, on the other hand, isn't dependent upon our traditions or expectations. He will move and bless as He sees fit. He is Lord.

Right!

[Amanah]

I guess I'm not convinced that we don't need to be baptized in Jesus name and be filled with the HG speaking in tongues.

Even if we say we are justified at repentence through faith in the blood of Jesus

Even if we say that Baptism is not for, but because of the remission of sin

doesn't our faith result in obedience? isn't faith w/o works dead being alone. When Abraham was justified by faith, he was given the seal of circumcision. Afterwards the people of Israel who were not circumcised were cut off.

Once we repent, don't we then continue to obey?

Also, I don't believe I had the Holy Ghost till I spoke with tongues.

[Amanah]

I was raised catholic, I received my first holy communion, and then when I was older I went to a confirmation, was maybe 9 yrs old, we kissed some guys ring and were told we had the Holy Ghost.

I don't think so.

[Pressing-On]

I guess I'm not convinced that we don't need to be baptized in Jesus name and be filled with the HG speaking in tongues.

Even if we say we are justified at repentence through faith in the blood of Jesus

Even if we say that Baptism is not for, but because of the remission of sin

doesn't our faith result in obedience? isn't faith w/o works dead being alone. When Abraham was justified by faith, he was given the seal of circumcision. Afterwards the people of Israel who were not circumcised were cut off.

Once we repent, don't we then continue to obey?

Also, I don't believe I had the Holy Ghost till I spoke with tongues.
Don't let anyone change what you believe, Amanah! :thumbsup

I was raised catholic, I received my first holy communion, and then when I was older I went to a confirmation, was maybe 9 yrs old, we kissed some guys ring and were told we had the Holy Ghost.

I don't think so.

Been there, done that! :thumbsup

[Amanah]

One day I walked into a small humble church that was meeting in the Eau Gallie Women's club. People would meet before church service down on their face in intercessory pray, seeking the face of God that God would meet with us. We didn't have a fancy choir, we had a few guitars, and some singing. When you walked into the building you were shaken with the presence and power and annointing of the Holy Ghost. You could feel the atmosphere of prayer. It broke you when you walked in the door.

[berkeley]

I need to find a gal to kiss my ring.

[Steve Epley]

I attend a large ex-UPC church. I found out this week that during our Youth Camp this past summer, our youth were baptized in the "titles" instead of "Jesus name" by the youth leaders! In addition to that, each were told to make the sign of the cross after they came out of the water!

Being born and raised in the Apostolic faith, I am spitting nails! Not only are those youth leaders still in place, I'm not sure they were ever reprimanded!

For the first time in years, I'm contemplating a move. Not sure. Someone has some 'splaining to do!:foottap

Come home, come home tis supper time. And I mean it. Y'all need to pack up and come home.

[Steve Epley]

Well, you know what 'they' say....first the 'holiness' standards go, then the message.

Seriously, I've seen this happen too many times.

Yes BUT the Pastor never believed the new birth message. However this is miles from thier roots.

[deltaguitar]

I guess I'm not convinced that we don't need to be baptized in Jesus name and be filled with the HG speaking in tongues.

Even if we say we are justified at repentence through faith in the blood of Jesus

Even if we say that Baptism is not for, but because of the remission of sin

doesn't our faith result in obedience? isn't faith w/o works dead being alone. When Abraham was justified by faith, he was given the seal of circumcision. Afterwards the people of Israel who were not circumcised were cut off.

Once we repent, don't we then continue to obey?

Also, I don't believe I had the Holy Ghost till I spoke with tongues.

This was one of the hardest things to let go for me. I believe in justification by faith long before I left the UPC but my true healing didn't begin until I gave up the "initial evidence doctrine".

I still remember the night I woke up and sat straight up in bed and realized that I had never spoke in tongues myself yet I was trying to make this doctrine for everybody. It was like God spoke to me and said, "you really never did it either did you?"

Funny how a doctrine that I loved and cherished so much was one that I had never truly experienced.

I do believe I have the Holy Spirit and I rest in that knowledge. I no longer seek and search after something that wasn't meant for me.

[Steve Epley]

If it is not important to be baptized in Jesus name, then what's the big deal. You are saying that someone who was previously baptized in the titles doesnt need to be rebaptized but then they baptize in the titles at your church and your miffed??

I've spoken withe a few leaders in the AoG lately. They are having a problem...they are finding that less and less of their members are receiving the Holy Ghost! Matter of fact they have more in their churches that have never received the Holy Ghost than those that have. Wanna know why? They aren't teaching the importance of receiving the Holy Ghost! Stop teaching that the Holy Ghost is important, people will stop seeking and receiving. Stop teaching baptism in Jesus name, people will stop getting baptized in Jesus name. Stop teaching the combination of the two, souls will be lost with their blood on your hands! You should deffinately find a church that teaches the necessity of Acts 2:38 new birth.

Amen.

[Steve Epley]

By the way I consider Steinway a friend. He and CC1 we have broken bread together they are super nice guys. Steinway's Dad was a One God-Jesus Name preacher. I for one have been praying for them and would like to see them return home. When churches make their exdous they generally go farther than they could ever imagine. Time to cut your losses and leave.

[deltaguitar]

By the way I consider Steinway a friend. He and CC1 we have broken bread together they are super nice guys. Steinway's Dad was a One God-Jesus Name preacher. I for one have been praying for them and would like to see them return home. When churches make their exdous they generally go farther than they could ever imagine. Time to cut your losses and leave.

You make a very valid point. It is one that I heard and feared for many years.

I agree that once we start leaving we usually go way further than we ever thought. If I had known where I would be today I would have never taken the first step away from the apostolic message. God had to lead me one step at a time.

[Steve Epley]

You make a very valid point. It is one that I heard and feared for many years.

I agree that once we start leaving we usually go way further than we ever thought. If I had known where I would be today I would have never taken the first step away from the apostolic message. God had to lead me one step at a time.

Old friend I also pray for your return.

[deltaguitar]

Old friend I also pray for your return.

Thank you. We disagree on a lot but I do admire that you are consistent and committed to Christ.

[crakjak]

Every religion selects doctrines and embraces them as requirements to be saved. Most folks don't really need the Holy Spirit because their church tells the what all they have to "do", whether it is UC, PCI, or other, the folks "do" what they are taught. So, in what way are they "led by the Spirit"???

The Good News of the Gospel is that Jesus was the one sent from God, to save the lost. If a person truly believes that Jesus is the Son of God, and searches the scriptures and develops a relationship with God thru the son of man, that person's life will immediate begin to change. Isn't more important that that person's life is changed and he begin to produce the fruits of the Spirit, and allows the gifting of the Spirit to operate in him, rather than he go thru the "rites" of his religion.

I am content that a person that believes the above and is baptized in water has been baptized in Jesus Name, no matter what is "said" over him. And I am satisfied, that as one walks with the Lord, the Spirit will equip him with the tools he needs to do the work of the Spirit.

Apostolic religion produces religious Apostolics, just like other religions. Relationship with the Lord produces followers of Jesus, and less dependence upon religion. I have found devoted believers and followers of Jesus, all over the religious landscape. Guess what, being "baptized in the Spirit" is now all over the place, people are hungering and thirsting after God, not religious bondage. And God, is baptizing them, saving them and changing their lives, all without so called "apostolic roots". The fruit and the gifts of the Spirit is testifying that these things are of God.

[Steve Epley]

Every religion selects doctrines and embraces them as requirements to be saved. Most folks don't really need the Holy Spirit because their church tells the what all they have to "do", whether it is UC, PCI, or other, the folks "do" what they are taught. So, in what way are they "led by the Spirit"???

The Good News of the Gospel is that Jesus was the one sent from God, to save the lost. If a person truly believes that Jesus is the Son of God, and searches the scriptures and develops a relationship with God thru the son of man, that person's life will immediate begin to change. Isn't more important that that person's life is changed and he begin to produce the fruits of the Spirit, and allows the gifting of the Spirit to operate in him, rather than he go thru the "rites" of his religion.

I am content that a person that believes the above and is baptized in water has been baptized in Jesus Name, no matter what is "said" over him. And I am satisfied, that as one walks with the Lord, the Spirit will equip him with the tools he needs to do the work of the Spirit.

Apostolic religion produces religious Apostolics, just like other religions. Relationship with the Lord produces followers of Jesus, and less dependence upon religion. I have found devoted believers and followers of Jesus, all over the religious landscape. Guess what, being "baptized in the Spirit" is now all over the place, people are hungering and thirsting after God, not religious bondage. And God, is baptizing them, saving them and changing their lives, all without so called "apostolic roots". The fruit and the gifts of the Spirit is testifying that these things are of God.

Carlton Pearson endorses this message.:happydance:thumbsup

[pelathais]

We don't "require" people to be rebaptized, but we teach why we do it in Jesus' name and they make that choice according to their understanding of Scripture. We don't teach that everyone else is lost. BUT we have had over 100 already this year baptized in Jesus' name. So people do get it!

We also don't teach that you HAVE to speak in tongues to be saved, but that everyone needs to. The vast majority of our people are Spirit filled, speaking in tongues. We present it as something that everyone needs and should want, and they receive it. We don't make it hard.

If it ain't hard it ain't the REAL thang! :grumpy

[Steve Epley]

If it ain't hard it ain't the REAL thang! :grumpy

True Jesus said STRAIT is the way. STRIVE to enter in at the Strait gate.:thumbsup

[pelathais]

True Jesus said STRAIT is the way. STRIVE to enter in at the Strait gate.:thumbsup

And those instructions apply to receiving the GIFT of the Holy Spirit, how?

Luke 11:13

[Steve Epley]

And those instructions apply to receiving the GIFT of the Holy Spirit, how?

Luke 11:13

Ask-seek-knock. They all have the ETH on the end of the words.:thumbsup

[Ferd]

Yes! :shhh

I dont know why but this breaks my heart.

Praying you figure out what you need to do.

[kclee4jc]

I guess I'm not convinced that we don't need to be baptized in Jesus name and be filled with the HG speaking in tongues.

Even if we say we are justified at repentence through faith in the blood of Jesus

Even if we say that Baptism is not for, but because of the remission of sin

doesn't our faith result in obedience? isn't faith w/o works dead being alone. When Abraham was justified by faith, he was given the seal of circumcision. Afterwards the people of Israel who were not circumcised were cut off.

Once we repent, don't we then continue to obey?

Also, I don't believe I had the Holy Ghost till I spoke with tongues.

I believe in reptence AND water baptism for remission of sins.

I also believe that receiving the Holy Ghost is an essential aspect of the new birth. I hope that I have made that clear in any previous posts.

[pelathais]

Ask-seek-knock. They all have the ETH on the end of the words.:thumbsup

And this has exactly what to do with the words you cited earlier?

"Jesus said STRAIT is the way. STRIVE to enter in at the Strait gate." - Steve Eply.

Those are the words to which I was responding. Don't change the subject or run away now that I've got you boxed in! :laffatu

[pelathais]

I dont know why but this breaks my heart.

Praying you figure out what you need to do.

Okay... How about this... and NO OFFENSE to anyone, please!

... but CC1 attends the "church in question" here and after his comments I have to ask:

Did this really happen?

CC1? Pianoman? Anyone?

[berkeley]

CC1 has not attended the church in question for a while now. Thas why he want the 411.

[Jack Shephard]

CC1 has not attended the church in question for a while now. Thas why he want the 411.

Where has CC1 been going?

[berkeley]

Where has CC1 been going?

To a church closer to his home.

[Jack Shephard]

To a church closer to his home.

He went Trinnie? :happydance

[berkeley]

He went Trinnie? :happydance

The wife had surgery on her back and the drive to Nashville was to painful. I believe he was attending a liberal UPC. I may be wrong about all of the above.

[pelathais]

The wife had surgery on her back and the drive to Nashville was to painful. I believe he was attending a liberal UPC. I may be wrong about all of the above.

Well, we, the raving rabble want the 411 now. :thumbsup

[CC1]

Where has CC1 been going?

For about a year to a cruisematic church that baptizes using both the titles and in Jesus Name then when my daughter (who is married to a Church of Christ guy) and her husband became members of a new (2 year old, one year old at that time) church plant in our town pastored by the former local UPC Youth Pastor, we were released by our pastor to go help with this new church and stay if we feel that is where we are called.

Our church is now two years old and has grown from a handful of people to around 200 people between two Sunday services. Congregation orginally made up of a lot of college students and disadvantged people (homeless, etc) but our growth has been very balanced with a lot of families, couples, etc coming.

Doctrine is PCI / One Step and baptism is in Jesus name.

[Steve Epley]

For about a year to a cruisematic church that baptizes using both the titles and in Jesus Name then when my daughter (who is married to a Church of Christ guy) and her husband became members of a new (2 year old, one year old at that time) church plant in our town pastored by the former local UPC Youth Pastor, we were released by our pastor to go help with this new church and stay if we feel that is where we are called.

Our church is now two years old and has grown from a handful of people to around 200 people between two Sunday services. Congregation orginally made up of a lot of college students and disadvantged people (homeless, etc) but our growth has been very balanced with a lot of families, couples, etc coming.

Doctrine is PCI / One Step and baptism is in Jesus name.

Are they in M'boro? And who is the Pastor?

[CC1]

Are they in M'boro? And who is the Pastor?

The UPC church was The Pentecostals of Murfreesboro pastored by Phil DePriest (sp?).

[Steve Epley]

The UPC church was The Pentecostals of Murfreesboro pastored by Phil DePriest (sp?).

Is he still pastoring? I know him and have a nephew who goes to church there. Is that where you are going?

[CC1]

Is he still pastoring? I know him and have a nephew who goes to church there. Is that where you are going?

I go to the church started around two years ago by his former youth pastor. It is not UPC. It is a PCI view church that baptizes in Jesus name. As far as Pastor DePriest goes yes he is still the pastor of the UPC church in Mboro.

[Falla39]

In the past few years after leaving the UPC I had some experience with the AOG and COG folks. There are many old time Pentecostals in their group who are still longing for the baptism of the spirit or the revivals of old. I know that a lot of kids are going to "The Ramp" and other revivals where there are manifestations of the spirit.

However, I also run into a lot of young people who have tried Pentecostalism and will accept it among the brethren but don't want to have anything to do with it anymore. The inconsistencies in logic and experience and emotional ups and downs are not something they want in a church service. These are strong christian kids who really want to do right and lead people to Christ who are having less to do with the pentecostal and charismatic movements.

However, on the other hand, I am still friends with many who are constantly searching and pressing and reaching for a promise or blessing or gift that is always out of reach which is a constant in the pentecostal circles.

It just seems to me that we automatically accept that when people stop getting the "baptism" that this is somehow wrong. Is it possible that the church has had so much craziness and fascination with the gifts and manifestations in the last few decades that God is drawing people back to himself and the word. There is a huge movement right now of people being drawn back to orthodoxy and away from the sensational.

My late father would say, "What good is orthodoxy if its not TRUTH"!

[UnTraditional]

Pentecostalism is not sensationalism. Pentecostalism is biblical orthodoxy, not man's orthodoxy, especially Oneness Pentecostalism. Those going into the so called orthodox churches, and I know this from experience, are doing so out of their own desire to walk away from the power of God and His presence, instead seeking for churches that have some form of mental spirituality instead of true faith based churches. When a man walks away from this One God Pentecostal truth, he does so, not because of hurt or other reasons, but does so because of his own personal pride and sin many times. You can walk away from a church fellowship and still have the truth, but to walk away from truth is another story all together.

[pelathais]

I go to the church started around two years ago by his former youth pastor. It is not UPC. It is a PCI view church that baptizes in Jesus name. As far as Pastor DePriest goes yes he is still the pastor of the UPC church in Mboro.

Your earlier post left me with the impression that you wanted to clear something up with Mr. Steinway. Were Bro. Hardwick's youth campers really instructed to make "the sign of the cross" after being "baptized in the titles?"

I don't wish to cast aspersions on Mr. Steinway's account, however these types of things are often said and quite often turn out to have been based upon something that was misunderstood. Like "hair cutting parties" and all of that.

Just anxious to know the truth. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Stephanas]

Your earlier post left me with the impression that you wanted to clear something up with Mr. Steinway. Were Bro. Hardwick's youth campers really instructed to make "the sign of the cross" after being "baptized in the titles?"

I don't wish to cast aspersions on Mr. Steinway's account, however these types of things are often said and quite often turn out to have been based upon something that was misunderstood. Like "hair cutting parties" and all of that.

Just anxious to know the truth. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Why would it seem strange to anybody that a church with an Anglican pastor would have converts make the sign of the cross?????

[Sherri]

Is he still pastoring? I know him and have a nephew who goes to church there. Is that where you are going?Pastor Phil and Carla DePriest are wonderful people! Your nephew is "safe" there.:thumbsup

[Sherri]

Your earlier post left me with the impression that you wanted to clear something up with Mr. Steinway. Were Bro. Hardwick's youth campers really instructed to make "the sign of the cross" after being "baptized in the titles?"

I don't wish to cast aspersions on Mr. Steinway's account, however these types of things are often said and quite often turn out to have been based upon something that was misunderstood. Like "hair cutting parties" and all of that.

Just anxious to know the truth. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon7.gifI would not doubt Mr. Steinways' report at all.

[deltaguitar]

[/B]

My late father would say, "What good is orthodoxy if its not TRUTH"!

Lets not forget that there are a lot of holes in pentecostal doctrine. For me to stay pentecostal would mean that I have to either ignore truth or lie to myself.

I am just as concerned as anyone about truth.

[pelathais]

I would not doubt Mr. Steinways' report at all.

... yeah but... "the sign of the cross?" Bro. Hardwick wouldn't have gone for that. I don't know the current pastor. Could this maybe have been something where some "new guy" in the youth group who wasn't raised around Pentecost was trying to insert some innovation of his own? Or maybe some sort complaint someone had that sort of grew in it's dimensions by the time it reached Steinway's ears?

I'm not questioning Mr. Steinway's veracity. It's just that it sort of hit me like one of those "hair cutting parties" reports. And then when CC1 posted, that only strengthened my skepticism. Could there be more to this than Christ Church, Nashville "has gone Catholic?" http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

That's all I'm asking. On it's face, this does sort of hurt a bit if it's true. On the other hand, who knows?

[ILG]

You make a very valid point. It is one that I heard and feared for many years.

I agree that once we start leaving we usually go way further than we ever thought. If I had known where I would be today I would have never taken the first step away from the apostolic message. God had to lead me one step at a time.

Same here, but I'm pretty happy right where I am at! I can't say I was ever truly happy in the UPC.

[pelathais]

Why would it seem strange to anybody that a church with an Anglican pastor would have converts make the sign of the cross?????

That's what everyone was saying about Tom Fudge. That Fudge was even an "Anglican priest." Turns out that the truth of the matter was far, far different.

Scott's "Anglican Mission in America" might really be called "Rwandan" more than "Anglish" (Church of England). They have in fact been condemned by the Archbishop of Canterbury. They are a split from the Episcopals who were deemed too liberal. Despite their claims to being part of the "Anglican communion," when the Archbishop of Canterbury singles you out for condemnation like he did, you probably should be thinking about changing the sign over your door.

[MrsMcD]

I attend a large ex-UPC church. I found out this week that during our Youth Camp this past summer, our youth were baptized in the "titles" instead of "Jesus name" by the youth leaders! In addition to that, each were told to make the sign of the cross after they came out of the water!

Being born and raised in the Apostolic faith, I am spitting nails! Not only are those youth leaders still in place, I'm not sure they were ever reprimanded!

For the first time in years, I'm contemplating a move. Not sure. Someone has some 'splaining to do!:foottap

Interesting...I don't even recall seeing Baptist make the sign of the cross after they came out of the water.

[deltaguitar]

Pentecostalism is not sensationalism. Pentecostalism is biblical orthodoxy, not man's orthodoxy, especially Oneness Pentecostalism. Those going into the so called orthodox churches, and I know this from experience, are doing so out of their own desire to walk away from the power of God and His presence, instead seeking for churches that have some form of mental spirituality instead of true faith based churches. When a man walks away from this One God Pentecostal truth, he does so, not because of hurt or other reasons, but does so because of his own personal pride and sin many times. You can walk away from a church fellowship and still have the truth, but to walk away from truth is another story all together.

I have walked away from it all and God has really accomplished a great miracle in my life. I didn't walk away from UPC because of sin or pride. I love the people and the organization and it was with great pain that I left. It was my whole identity. I wanted to be a teacher like my dad until I started examining things for myself I realized I couldn't teach people something that wasn't true.

[deltaguitar]

... yeah but... "the sign of the cross?" Bro. Hardwick wouldn't have gone for that. I don't know the current pastor. Could this maybe have been something where some "new guy" in the youth group who wasn't raised around Pentecost was trying to insert some innovation of his own? Or maybe some sort complaint someone had that sort of grew in it's dimensions by the time it reached Steinway's ears?

I'm not questioning Mr. Steinway's veracity. It's just that it sort of hit me like one of those "hair cutting parties" reports. And then when CC1 posted, that only strengthened my skepticism. Could there be more to this than Christ Church, Nashville "has gone Catholic?" http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

That's all I'm asking. On it's face, this does sort of hurt a bit if it's true. On the other hand, who knows?

Maybe the church is getting away from it's heritage on purpose. Are they truly a Oneness Pentecostal church anymore?

[Stephanas]

That's what everyone was saying about Tom Fudge. That Fudge was even an "Anglican priest." Turns out that the truth of the matter was far, far different.

Scott's "Anglican Mission in America" might really be called "Rwandan" more than "Anglish" (Church of England). They have in fact been condemned by the Archbishop of Canterbury. They are a split from the Episcopals who were deemed too liberal. Despite their claims to being part of the "Anglican communion," when the Archbishop of Canterbury singles you out for condemnation like he did, you probably should be thinking about changing the sign over your door.

So your contention is that the Anglican Mission in the Americas is not Anglican???

I bet that they'd be surprised to hear that.

The Anglican Mission in the Americas and its associated organizations (hereafter the “Anglican Mission”) exist to glorify God by building an alliance of dynamic worshipping communities in the Americas committed to planting, nurturing, and serving churches in the Anglican tradition. The Anglican Mission is a Missionary Jurisdiction of the Anglican Province of Rwanda and part of the worldwide Anglican Communion.

[Steve Epley]

Pastor Phil and Carla DePriest are wonderful people! Your nephew is "safe" there.:thumbsup

They are nice folks.

[Steve Epley]

So your contention is that the Anglican Mission in the Americas is not Anglican???

I bet that they'd be surprised to hear that.

Don't confuse him with facts. He writes his own.:thumbsup

[Stephanas]

Don't confuse him with facts. He writes his own.:thumbsup

He's got me confused for sure.

Every ordained member of the Anglican Church of the Americas has to make this affirmation:

"...I further affirm the catholic Creeds, the dogmatic definitions of the General Councils of the undivided church, the Book of Common Prayer and the Ordinal, 1662, the 39 Articles of Religion of the Church of England in their literal and grammatical sense, and the Lambeth Quadrilateral of 1888, since the same are conformable to Scriptures,..."

Source: http://www.theamia.org/am_cms_media/applicationpacket_reception_us_.doc

[Stephanas]

That's what everyone was saying about Tom Fudge. That Fudge was even an "Anglican priest." Turns out that the truth of the matter was far, far different.


When did Tom Fudge quit being Anglican?

Did anybody let him know that the authorities on AFF had disqualified both him and Dan Scott from being Anglican?

[mfblume]

He's got me confused for sure.

Every ordained member of the Anglican Church of the Americas has to make this affirmation:

"...I further affirm the catholic Creeds, the dogmatic definitions of the General Councils of the undivided church, the Book of Common Prayer and the Ordinal, 1662, the 39 Articles of Religion of the Church of England in their literal and grammatical sense, and the Lambeth Quadrilateral of 1888, since the same are conformable to Scriptures,..."

Source: http://www.theamia.org/am_cms_media/applicationpacket_reception_us_.doc

You are aware, are you, that reference to "CATHOLIC" in the above quote is not referring to the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, but simply the "UNIVERSAL" CHURCH? "Catholic" literally means "universal". And it is simply a way of saying the true church covers the earth.

[StillStanding]

Thanks for all your comments and support!

The following are facts:

1. Our pastor is ordained in the Anglican church.
2. His top three assistants are going through Anglican seminary, and will be ordained in the Anglican church.
3. It is one of his top assistants that did the baptizing of the youth.

What attracted me to our church was the flavor (taste), meaning certain deeply held beliefs that I was comfortable with. I have always thought of our church as a "hospital" for believers and unbelievers alike.

Suddenly it appears that the recipe is being tweaked. I don't like the 'new" Coke. I prefer Coke Classic! I think they should learn from Coca-Cola that changing the recipe for the sake of "change" can lead to open rebellion and people leaving in droves!

[Stephanas]

You are aware, are you, that reference to "CATHOLIC" in the above quote is not referring to the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, but simply the "UNIVERSAL" CHURCH? "Catholic" literally means "universal". And it is simply a way of saying the true church covers the earth.

Yup - I thought that that point was too obvious to draw attention to.

I included the quote to emphasize that Pastor Scott and every other ordained member of the Anglican Mission of the Americas affirms the "39 Articles of Religion of the Church of England in their literal and grammatical sense"

Hey - You're from Canada.

When did Professor Fudge leave the Anglican church?

[Stephanas]

Thanks for all your comments and support!

The following are facts:

1. Our pastor is ordained in the Anglican church.
2. His top three assistants are going through Anglican seminary, and will be ordained in the Anglican church.
3. It is one of his top assistants that did the baptizing of the youth.

What attracted me to our church was the flavor (taste), meaning certain deeply held beliefs that I was comfortable with. I have always thought of our church as a "hospital" for believers and unbelievers alike.

Suddenly it appears that the recipe is being tweaked. I don't like the 'new" Coke. I prefer Coke Classic! I think they should learn from Coca-Cola that changing the recipe for the sake of "change" can lead to open rebellion and people leaving in droves!

So, does Professor Tom Fudge teach at that Anglican seminary?:happydance

[Jack Shephard]

Thanks for all your comments and support!

The following are facts:

1. Our pastor is ordained in the Anglican church.
2. His top three assistants are going through Anglican seminary, and will be ordained in the Anglican church.
3. It is one of his top assistants that did the baptizing of the youth.

What attracted me to our church was the flavor (taste), meaning certain deeply held beliefs that I was comfortable with. I have always thought of our church as a "hospital" for believers and unbelievers alike.

Suddenly it appears that the recipe is being tweaked. I don't like the 'new" Coke. I prefer Coke Classic! I think they should learn from Coca-Cola that changing the recipe for the sake of "change" can lead to open rebellion and people leaving in droves!

Do you see DS and his boys changing the flow of that church bake to the classic coke? From what I have heard he did the same thing out in Phoenix and almost ruined that church. i could be wrong, but I do know that church as it was is no longer active and has been folded into another church. Anyway... Where would you all go if or when you leave? Will you leave or just stay there?

[pelathais]

Maybe the church is getting away from it's heritage on purpose. Are they truly a Oneness Pentecostal church anymore?

From Dan Scott's bio at http://www.christchurchnashville.org/pastors.htm

"... The fruit of his relationships can be seen in his commitment to a convergence of the three streams of Christianity – the sacramental, the evangelical, and the Pentecostal. Dan Scott is passionate about drawing from the strengths of the divergent gifts and insight of the whole Church. He seeks to create spiritual environments that celebrate the traditions of Christian faith, the freedom of the Holy Spirit and the foundation of the Word."

I'm afraid that I don't know the guy at all. I'm more familiar with Bro. Hardwick, though I understand that he has stepped back from a lot of his direct involvement there.

[mfblume]

Yup - I thought that that point was too obvious to draw attention to.

I included the quote to emphasize that Pastor Scott and every other ordained member of the Anglican Mission of the Americas affirms the "39 Articles of Religion of the Church of England in their literal and grammatical sense"

Hey - You're from Canada.

When did Professor Fudge leave the Anglican church?

I have not been following the thread, and thought you may have quoted that to show how the anglicans are tied to the RCC Lol.

My uncle was once married to Fudge's sister. He grew up in the Saint John UPC at the time of another uncle of mine, Arden Bustard, pastored there. That is all I know about Fudge. I do not know when he left the Anglicans.

[Amanah]

From Dan Scott's bio at http://www.christchurchnashville.org/pastors.htm

"... The fruit of his relationships can be seen in his commitment to a convergence of the three streams of Christianity – the sacramental, the evangelical, and the Pentecostal. Dan Scott is passionate about drawing from the strengths of the divergent gifts and insight of the whole Church. He seeks to create spiritual environments that celebrate the traditions of Christian faith, the freedom of the Holy Spirit and the foundation of the Word."

I'm afraid that I don't know the guy at all. I'm more familiar with Bro. Hardwick, though I understand that he has stepped back from a lot of his direct involvement there.

this sounds like something Richard Foster would say. This sounds like Emergent church philosophy.

[Amanah]

Emergent Church Philosophy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_church

Creative and rediscovered spirituality
This can involve everything from expressive, neocharismatic style of worship and the use of contemporary music and films to more ancient liturgical customs and eclectic expressions of spirituality, with the goal of making the church gathering reflect the local community's tastes.

Emerging church practitioners are happy to take elements of worship from a wide variety of historic traditions, including traditions of the Catholic Church, the Anglican churches, the Orthodox churches, and Celtic Christianity. From these and other religious traditions emerging church groups take, adapt and blend various historic church practices including liturgy, prayer beads, icons, spiritual direction, the labyrinth, and lectio divina. The Emerging Church is also sometimes called the "Ancient-Future" church.[61]

One of the key social drives in Western Post-industrialised countries, is the rise in new/old forms of mysticism.[62][63] This rise in spirituality appears to be driven by the effects of consumerism, globalisation and advances in information technology.[64] Therefore, the Emerging Church is operating in a new context of postmodern spirituality, as a new form of mysticism. This capitalizes on the social shift in starting assumptions from the situation that most are regarded as materialist/atheist (the modern position), to the fact that many people now believe in and are searching for something more spiritual (postmodern view). This has been characterised as a major shift from religion to spirituality.[65]

So, in the new world of 'spiritual tourism', the Emerging Church Movement is seeking to missionally assist people to shift from being spiritual tourists to Christian pilgrims. Many are drawing on ancient Christian resources recontextualised into the contemporary such as contemplation and contemplative forms of prayer, symbolic multi-sensory worship, story telling and many others.[66] This again has required a change in focus as the majority of unchurched and dechurched people are seeking 'something that works' rather than something that is 'true'.[67]

[Amanah]

I attend a large ex-UPC church. I found out this week that during our Youth Camp this past summer, our youth were baptized in the "titles" instead of "Jesus name" by the youth leaders! In addition to that, each were told to make the sign of the cross after they came out of the water!

Being born and raised in the Apostolic faith, I am spitting nails! Not only are those youth leaders still in place, I'm not sure they were ever reprimanded!

For the first time in years, I'm contemplating a move. Not sure. Someone has some 'splaining to do!:foottap

Don't be perplexed, you have just encountered the next gen emergent church movement of Brian McLaren

[pelathais]

this sounds like something Richard Foster would say. This sounds like Emergent church philosophy.

I don't know Foster either. I was a History major and I'm afraid that keeping track of a lot of contemporary "media stars" strikes me as being a bit too short sighted especially when looking at the long stretches of history. That and I am not able to follow most of the videos and audio tracks everyone shares due to my hearing impairment.

In taking a longer look at Church history, I do see trends like what Scott is describing. It's something that has always been a part of the Christian experience. It's sort of like those streams way up high in mountain meadows. As they empty out of a canyon or draw, the flow of the stream breaks apart and rejoins repeatedly as it crosses the meadow or field. From above, if the light hits the water just right, it looks like a silver braid.

Believers have always been faced with trying to evaluate "what to keep" and what can be tossed overboard. It's a difficult task but our ship won't sail with all of the junk we acquire over time. What do we need to kept ourselves on course and to keep the sails in the wind? Everything else is just "nice to have" for some and a stumbling block for others.

[Amanah]

I don't know Foster either. I was a History major and I'm afraid that keeping track of a lot of contemporary "media stars" strikes me as being a bit too short sighted especially when looking at the long stretches of history. That and I am not able to follow most of the videos and audio tracks everyone shares due to my hearing impairment.

In taking a longer look at Church history, I do see trends like what Scott is describing. It's something that has always been a part of the Christian experience. It's sort of like those streams way up high in mountain meadows. As they empty out of a canyon or draw, the flow of the stream breaks apart and rejoins repeatedly. From above, if the light hits the water just right, it looks like a silver braid.

Believers have always been faced with trying to evaluate "what to keep" and what can be tossed overboard. It's a difficult task but our ship won't sail with all of the junk we acquire over time. What do we need to kept ourselves on course and to keep the sails in the wind? Everything else is just "nice to have" for some and a stumbling block for others.

Pel, It's important to read up on the Emergent Church movement and Brian McLaren

[pelathais]

Pel, It's important to read up on the Emergent Church movement.

I'm familiar with the trend but it just strikes me as being more about "style" than substance. I was preaching with my shirt untucked long before it was ever "cool" or "emergent."

Other than that, it's pretty much the same argument, just in different terms, that has always been going on.

[deltaguitar]

Usually when I here our pastor talk about the trinity it actually sounds very Oneness. I often hear statements often that Jesus created the world, or that God is one being tri-une in nature.

The distinction among the Godhead is relational and the way that relationship has been described has been with the word "person".

The following are things that I feel Oneness theology misses. I am not like most trinitarians who believe that Oneness people are not saved. We are not saved because of our understanding. However, I do believe there are many pentecostal people who are not saved because of the doctrines that distract them from the gospel and instead of being born again they follow a three step formula.

Oneness theology misses out on the relationship within the Godhead. I hear a lot of teaching about the Father's relationship with the Son and the completeness and

Oneness theology misses the concept of the Father giving to the son the elect and the Son interceding on our behalf.

Oneness theology misses the idea that Jesus submitted himself in humility to the will of the Father. How can Jesus submit to himself?

Oneness theology misses the idea that Jesus was SENT into the world.

[Amanah]

I'm familiar with the trend but it just strikes me as being more about "style" than substance. I was preaching with my shirt untucked long before it was ever "cool" or "emergent."

Other than that, it's pretty much the same argument, just in different terms, that has always been going on.

Ok, did you know that the teleological end of the Emergent church movement is universalism?

[pelathais]

Ok, did you know that the teleological end of the Emergent church movement is universalism?

"Universalism" has been a Christian theme throughout the history of the Church, though never the majority opinion. "We" really have been here before.

[mfblume]

Usually when I here our pastor talk about the trinity it actually sounds very Oneness. I often hear statements often that Jesus created the world, or that God is one being tri-une in nature.

The distinction among the Godhead is relational and the way that relationship has been described has been with the word "person".

The following are things that I feel Oneness theology misses. I am not like most trinitarians who believe that Oneness people are not saved. We are not saved because of our understanding. However, I do believe there are many pentecostal people who are not saved because of the doctrines that distract them from the gospel and instead of being born again they follow a three step formula.

Oneness theology misses out on the relationship within the Godhead. I hear a lot of teaching about the Father's relationship with the Son and the completeness and

Oneness theology misses the concept of the Father giving to the son the elect and the Son interceding on our behalf.

Oneness theology misses the idea that Jesus submitted himself in humility to the will of the Father. How can Jesus submit to himself?

Oneness theology misses the idea that Jesus was SENT into the world.

Actually Oneness misses none of these things. Those who misunderstand oneness miss them. To say that Jesus submits to Himself in Oneness if it is true that He submitted to the Father is to not have understood what Oneness teaches about humanity versus deity. So many "leave Oneness" when in actuality they never understood oneness to begin with and left something oneness never taught.

[deltaguitar]

Actually Oneness misses none of these things. Those who misunderstand oneness miss them. To say that Jesus submits to Himself in Oneness if it is true that He submitted to the Father is to not have understood what Oneness teaches about humanity versus deity. So many "leave Oneness" when in actuality they never understood oneness to begin with and left something oneness never taught.

I will admit that I probably never fully understood the Oneness position but I think my understanding of Oneness is probably better than 90% of the actual Oneness folks out there. The truth is that I have to correct them many times on what their own doctrine teaches.

I honestly believe that trinitarian and oneness doctrine are not that far apart. It is very hard to find what the Oneness position really is and there is no accepted doctrinal creed or position that is posted on the UPC website. They just claim to deny the trinity.

[freeatlast]

I will admit that I probably never fully understood the Oneness position but I think my understanding of Oneness is probably better than 90% of the actual Oneness folks out there. The truth is that I have to correct them many times on what their own doctrine teaches.

I honestly believe that trinitarian and oneness doctrine are not that far apart. It is very hard to find what the Oneness position really is and there is no accepted doctrinal creed or position that is posted on the UPC website. They just claim to deny the trinity.

It always been about what we don't believe in. Hey, does that make us non believers? :happydance

[freeatlast]

Or maybe we could be called the "First Church of don't believers"

[mfblume]

I will admit that I probably never fully understood the Oneness position but I think my understanding of Oneness is probably better than 90% of the actual Oneness folks out there. The truth is that I have to correct them many times on what their own doctrine teaches.

I honestly believe that trinitarian and oneness doctrine are not that far apart. It is very hard to find what the Oneness position really is and there is no accepted doctrinal creed or position that is posted on the UPC website. They just claim to deny the trinity.

You are right in that they are very close teachings, but the big difference and this is huge is as follows: Trinity teaches that Father, Son and Holy Ghost were conscious of each other and communed with each other and loved each other as three persons for all eternity past and there was never a time when this was not true. However, Oneness teaches SON OF GOD never existed until the incarnation, and that God was one person all alone for eternity past without ANYONE to commune with as between a Father and Son and Spirit.

I must say I appreciate the trinity thought that Jesus is Almighty God and not a lesser god like Arianism teaches, or not even a man who is not God at all, as some on the forum here teach.

[Amanah]

Oneness believe that Jesus is the Father, Trinitarians don't.

[Sherri]

Oneness believe that Jesus is the Father, Trinitarians don't.A lot of Oneness people do NOT believe this. Especially alot of UPC people.
You cannot do away with the distinction of the role of the Father and the Son, or you're doing away with Scripture. However, I do believe they are different forms of One God. But Jesus was never the Father - He was the Son of God, sent to earth in an earthly body, being the union of Mary and the Holy Spirit. That shouldn't make people nervous.
And for the record, I am NOT Trinitarian.

[TGBTG]

Oneness theology misses out on the relationship within the Godhead. I hear a lot of teaching about the Father's relationship with the Son and the completeness and

Oneness theology misses the concept of the Father giving to the son the elect and the Son interceding on our behalf.

Oneness theology misses the idea that Jesus submitted himself in humility to the will of the Father. How can Jesus submit to himself?

Oneness theology misses the idea that Jesus was SENT into the world.

What is the relationship between the Father and the Spirit?
What is the relationship between the Son and the Spirit?

[Stephanas]

The Father did not cease being the Father to become the Son, but, before this thread leaves topic altogether, when did Professor Thomas Fudge cease being an Anglican, and what did he become when he stepped down from the Anglican pulpit?

[deltaguitar]

You are right in that they are very close teachings, but the big difference and this is huge is as follows: Trinity teaches that Father, Son and Holy Ghost were conscious of each other and communed with each other and loved each other as three persons for all eternity past and there was never a time when this was not true. However, Oneness teaches SON OF GOD never existed until the incarnation, and that God was one person all alone for eternity past without ANYONE to commune with as between a Father and Son and Spirit.

I must say I appreciate the trinity thought that Jesus is Almighty God and not a lesser god like Arianism teaches, or not even a man who is not God at all, as some on the forum here teach.

I have heard a very prominent trinitarian try to explain the Trinity by saying that the Son is the very image of God and proceeds from God and the Holy Spirit is the relationship between the two and proceeds from the Father and the Son.

The way I read scripture I am convinced that Jesus was eternally with God.

"In the beginning was the Word and the word was with God and the word was God", try to break that one down without losing your mind. God was with himself and then sent himself is a difficult text to explain away.

[MrsMcD]

Oneness believe that Jesus is the Father, Trinitarians don't.

I'm oneness and I can't see how Jesus could be his own Father.

[Amanah]

I'm oneness and I can't see how Jesus could be his own Father.

this is what I actually said:

Oneness believe that Jesus is the Father, Trinitarians don't.


http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/father.htm


There is only one God. That God is our father. If Jesus is that God then Jesus is our father. As to his deity, Jesus Christ is God the Father. Isaiah 9:6 clearly calls him the Father. Some have argued that this should be translated "Father of Eternity," but not one major translation translates it that way (see my article: Should Isaiah 9:6 read "Everlasting Father" or "Father of Eternity?"). However, even if we adopt the translation "Father of Eternity" does that diminish the force? Jesus is called the Father. I Corinthians 8:6 tells us that, "to us there is but one God, the Father." There is no God outside of the Father. So in the sense that Jesus is that God, then Jesus is the Father. Malachi 2:10 asks the question "Have we not all one Father? hath not one God created us?" So we all have one Father, and our Father is God. The reason we call God our Father is because he created us. John 1:3, Colossians 1:16 and Hebrews 1:2 tell us that all things were created by Jesus, thereby making him our Father.

[StillStanding]

.....

Believers have always been faced with trying to evaluate "what to keep" and what can be tossed overboard. It's a difficult task but our ship won't sail with all of the junk we acquire over time. What do we need to kept ourselves on course and to keep the sails in the wind? Everything else is just "nice to have" for some and a stumbling block for others.

:thumbsup I feel I've come too far to accept some old traditions that I can't relate to. Plus I like some of my Apostolic traditions.

i.e. In the last six months our church has started saying "pass the peace" instead of "greet those around you" or "tell somebody around you that it's good to be in the house of God". The first time they said it I thought they were giving everyone a bathroom break! :spit I guess "pass the peace" is a centuries old phrase that some church started after a church fight!

[Steve Epley]

Actually Oneness misses none of these things. Those who misunderstand oneness miss them. To say that Jesus submits to Himself in Oneness if it is true that He submitted to the Father is to not have understood what Oneness teaches about humanity versus deity. So many "leave Oneness" when in actuality they never understood oneness to begin with and left something oneness never taught.

Finally Elder Blume we are together on the ONE thing. I'll send you a razor for a present.:happydance

[Ferd]

I hate to say this, but when Dan was brought in a lot of us warned that things would go this way. He has a history of doing this.

Dude will be back in a clerical robe again in a couple years if you dont get him outta there.

[Steve Epley]

Oneness believe that Jesus is the Father, Trinitarians don't.

Yes. And ONLY the Father is God.

[Steve Epley]

A lot of Oneness people do NOT believe this. Especially alot of UPC people.
You cannot do away with the distinction of the role of the Father and the Son, or you're doing away with Scripture. However, I do believe they are different forms of One God. But Jesus was never the Father - He was the Son of God, sent to earth in an earthly body, being the union of Mary and the Holy Spirit. That shouldn't make people nervous.
And for the record, I am NOT Trinitarian.

Isaiah was wrong how about that? Isa. 9:6

[Steve Epley]

The Father did not cease being the Father to become the Son, but, before this thread leaves topic altogether, when did Professor Thomas Fudge cease being an Anglican, and what did he become when he stepped down from the Anglican pulpit?

I read somewhere he was discharged from the University he was teaching. I forget what it was over so he might be unemployed instead of being an Anglican?

[Steve Epley]

this is what I actually said:




http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/father.htm


There is only one God. That God is our father. If Jesus is that God then Jesus is our father. As to his deity, Jesus Christ is God the Father. Isaiah 9:6 clearly calls him the Father. Some have argued that this should be translated "Father of Eternity," but not one major translation translates it that way (see my article: Should Isaiah 9:6 read "Everlasting Father" or "Father of Eternity?"). However, even if we adopt the translation "Father of Eternity" does that diminish the force? Jesus is called the Father. I Corinthians 8:6 tells us that, "to us there is but one God, the Father." There is no God outside of the Father. So in the sense that Jesus is that God, then Jesus is the Father. Malachi 2:10 asks the question "Have we not all one Father? hath not one God created us?" So we all have one Father, and our Father is God. The reason we call God our Father is because he created us. John 1:3, Colossians 1:16 and Hebrews 1:2 tell us that all things were created by Jesus, thereby making him our Father.

Amen the lady is preaching and is preaching the truth. Hear ye her!:thumbsup

[Steve Epley]

I hate to say this, but when Dan was brought in a lot of us warned that things would go this way. He has a history of doing this.

Dude will be back in a clerical robe again in a couple years if you dont get him outta there.

I do remember those knock down drag outs we had. He is NOT Pentecostal. I feel a new church is getting ready to be birthed. When you leave tell him to stick in incense in his ear.:happydance In Jesus Name of course.:heeheehee:highfive

[StillStanding]

this sounds like something Richard Foster would say. This sounds like Emergent church philosophy.

DS wrote a book called "The Emerging American Church". He might be self-fulfilling a prophesy.

[Ferd]

I do remember those knock down drag outs we had. He is NOT Pentecostal. I feel a new church is getting ready to be birthed. When you leave tell him to stick in incense in his ear.:happydance In Jesus Name of course.:heeheehee:highfive

Well the good folks in AZ had the good sense to kick him out when he put on the robe and started swinging incense. Lets hope those good southerners in Tenn. have as much?

[Steve Epley]

Well the good folks in AZ had the good sense to kick him out when he put on the robe and started swinging incense. Lets hope those good southerners in Tenn. have as much?

I see a nice size church in the making or a already existing church is about to have major growth. Someone needs to bypass him and go directly to Hardwick. The exodus is near.

[StillStanding]

Well the good folks in AZ had the good sense to kick him out when he put on the robe and started swinging incense. Lets hope those good southerners in Tenn. have as much?

He announced this past Sunday that he will preach a sermon about "where CC is headed (CC's future)" this coming Sunday. This came after an assistant preached a sermon telling everyone to stop complaining and accept change. Wouldn't you know it...I'll be in New York this weekend! I'm sure I'll hear all about it when I get back!

Concerning the robe, I was told DS was upset when a friend of ours asked him to NOT wear a robe when he performed their wedding!

I'm not making a knee-jerk decision to leave just yet! I'll give it to the end of the year to see how things pan out first. Unless.....another shoe falls!

[StillStanding]

I see a nice size church in the making or a already existing church is about to have major growth. Someone needs to bypass him and go directly to Hardwick. The exodus is near.

There's a new ex-UPC church (still 3-step) that started in our area last year. They could have instant growth of a couple hundred people at least!

[Amanah]

There's a new ex-UPC church (still 3-step) that started in our area last year. They could have instant growth of a couple hundred people at least!

go for it and lead the way

[Levi]

Is it the one in Franklin with Alex roots?

[StillStanding]

Is it the one in Franklin with Alex roots?

Yep!

[Ferd]

He announced this past Sunday that he will preach a sermon about "where CC is headed (CC's future)" this coming Sunday. This came after an assistant preached a sermon telling everyone to stop complaining and accept change. Wouldn't you know it...I'll be in New York this weekend! I'm sure I'll hear all about it when I get back!

Concerning the robe, I was told DS was upset when a friend of ours asked him to NOT wear a robe when he performed their wedding!

I'm not making a knee-jerk decision to leave just yet! I'll give it to the end of the year to see how things pan out first. Unless.....another shoe falls!

All I am saying is, if I were a PCI kind of guy pastoring in Nashville, I would be sending out a letter "We still hold to the old path!"

In all seriousness. I dont know that I would leave. At least not at first. I think I would be vocal about what my church has always stood for, figure out who the lay leadership is and talk to them and see if anyone is left who holds to the teachings that founded the church.

Then if there was no way to demand the church stay the course, leaving might be the only option. But if it was my church and the leadership was changing what has always been the founding doctrines of the church, I think I would fight.

[StillStanding]

All I am saying is, if I were a PCI kind of guy pastoring in Nashville, I would be sending out a letter "We still hold to the old path!"

In all seriousness. I dont know that I would leave. At least not at first. I think I would be vocal about what my church has always stood for, figure out who the lay leadership is and talk to them and see if anyone is left who holds to the teachings that founded the church.

Then if there was no way to demand the church stay the course, leaving might be the only option. But if it was my church and the leadership was changing what has always been the founding doctrines of the church, I think I would fight.

That is my quandary. Do I stay and fight because of my investment in time, finances and emotion that I have put in the church over the years, or do I leave quietly and not make any waves? I don't want to be labeled as a troublemaker!

[Sarah]

Hmmm...I wonder if this change had anything to do with the music directors (the Gardners) leaving CC.

[Amanah]

That is my quandary. Do I stay and fight because of my investment in time, finances and emotion that I have put in the church over the years, or do I leave quietly and not make any waves? I don't want to be labeled as a troublemaker!

Pray about it and get a copy of the Pastor's sermon that he preaches while you are gone, talking about the direction of the church. It's tough when there are emotional ties to people and you don't know the long term consequences of your actions.

[Pressing-On]

That is my quandary. Do I stay and fight because of my investment in time, finances and emotion that I have put in the church over the years, or do I leave quietly and not make any waves? I don't want to be labeled as a troublemaker!

We've been in church situations where we have had to choose to stay and fight (and I really mean to just stand) or leave. We left that decision to God and His direction, through prayer and fasting. If you have to stay and make a stand, at God's direction, at least you know that God will bring deliverance, eventually. I don't see ever making the decision on our own. It wouldn't make sense in the New Testament church, IMO, - being led of the Spirit and all.

[StillStanding]

Hmmm...I wonder if this change had anything to do with the music directors (the Gardners) leaving CC.

Not at all! That was a whole 'nuther issue! :icecream

[StillStanding]

Pray about it and get a copy of the Pastor's sermon that he preaches while you are gone, talking about the direction of the church. It's tough when there are emotional ties to people and you don't know the long term consequences of your actions.

You're right! It's hard to walk away and change from weekly routines of worship with family and friends. There's a lot of emotion involved here.

[ILG]

Amen the lady is preaching and is preaching the truth. Hear ye her!:thumbsup

I thought you were against that?:dunno

[CC1]

Okay... How about this... and NO OFFENSE to anyone, please!

... but CC1 attends the "church in question" here and after his comments I have to ask:

Did this really happen?

CC1? Pianoman? Anyone?

You gotta catch up with the times Pelanthesaurus! I have not attended CC for about two years now. Going to a local church because of health issues with my wife making the trip to CC too hard. That is why I told Steinway to call me - I am out of the loop on CC and what he posted was news to me and I wanted details!

[Hoovie]

You gotta catch up with the times Pelanthesaurus! I have not attended CC for about two years now. Going to a local church because of health issues with my wife making the trip to CC too hard. That is why I told CC to call me - I am out of the loop on CC and what he posted was news to me and I wanted details!

Nevermind the church stuff... do you still have the inground pool when I come for a visit??

[CC1]

Nevermind the church stuff... do you still have the inground pool when I come for a visit??

Hey, I am a redneck. it is a 33' above ground pool.

[Hoovie]

Hey, I am a redneck. it is a 33' above ground pool.

LOL! You'll think redneck when I bring my canoe!

[Steve Epley]

Have you talked to Bro. Hardwick about the situation? I would tell him an exodus is getting ready to take place. Prominent long standing members are on their way out.

[Stephanas]

That's what everyone was saying about Tom Fudge. That Fudge was even an "Anglican priest." Turns out that the truth of the matter was far, far different.

Come on, humor me, and explain yourself.:foottap

Are you saying that Thomas Fudge is no longer an Anglican?

I bet the fine folks at St. Anne's Episcopal Church would be surprised to find out that the good doctor looking after their adult education program is not Anglican.:happydance

[crakjak]

Carlton Pearson endorses this message.:happydance:thumbsup

If he does or doesn't, I don't know. :smack

[aegsm76]

I would talk to the current and former pastors, explain my concerns, ask about the direction of the church and then make my decision.
This would of course depend on my relationship with them.

[crakjak]

I don't know Foster either. I was a History major and I'm afraid that keeping track of a lot of contemporary "media stars" strikes me as being a bit too short sighted especially when looking at the long stretches of history. That and I am not able to follow most of the videos and audio tracks everyone shares due to my hearing impairment.

In taking a longer look at Church history, I do see trends like what Scott is describing. It's something that has always been a part of the Christian experience. It's sort of like those streams way up high in mountain meadows. As they empty out of a canyon or draw, the flow of the stream breaks apart and rejoins repeatedly as it crosses the meadow or field. From above, if the light hits the water just right, it looks like a silver braid.

Believers have always been faced with trying to evaluate "what to keep" and what can be tossed overboard. It's a difficult task but our ship won't sail with all of the junk we acquire over time. What do we need to kept ourselves on course and to keep the sails in the wind? Everything else is just "nice to have" for some and a stumbling block for others.

Foster has a great book called: "The Celebration of the Discipline". I just today pick up another of his books: "Prayer: Finding the Heart's True Home". Expecting it to be another great read. His writings are on the line of Phillip Yancy's, they have the unique ability to address the difficult things that Christians tend to gloss over, because they don't fit the "religious consensus".

[crakjak]

There's a new ex-UPC church (still 3-step) that started in our area last year. They could have instant growth of a couple hundred people at least!

Yep, and those instant churches crash, just as fast as the are created.

[StillStanding]

I would talk to the current and former pastors, explain my concerns, ask about the direction of the church and then make my decision.
This would of course depend on my relationship with them.

I plan to do this, but I'll have to get in a L-O-N-G line!! Lots of people are upset! I think that's why our pastor is addressing the direction of the church this Sunday!

[Digging4Truth]

I plan to do this, but I'll have to get in a L-O-N-G line!! Lots of people are upset! I think that's why our pastor is addressing the direction of the church this Sunday!

Be sure and take notes.

You can post them here so you'll always have a copy. :)

[Steve Epley]

If Bro. Hardwick is not available you are probably wasting your time. Get your family and go somewhere else.

[ThePastorsCoach]

I think you should make it a matter of urgency to talk to Pastor Hardwick and to Pastor Dan Scott. I do not think you should leave without them knowing why and hearing them out.
The problem with a lot of this is the Senior Pastors have not taught the younger ones what to do and how to do it!
I know at Free Chapel when Pastor Jentezen Franklin baptizes - he always uses the name of Jesus Christ in water baptism, but when the other ministers baptize - they do not. Somebody is going to be held accountable especially when doctrinally - CC has always baptized using the name of Jesus Christ.

[mfblume]

I have heard a very prominent trinitarian try to explain the Trinity by saying that the Son is the very image of God and proceeds from God and the Holy Spirit is the relationship between the two and proceeds from the Father and the Son.

The way I read scripture I am convinced that Jesus was eternally with God.

"In the beginning was the Word and the word was with God and the word was God", try to break that one down without losing your mind. God was with himself and then sent himself is a difficult text to explain away.

WORD is LOGOS and means thought or plan, though. that is why Romans 5 says Adam was made in the likeness of HIM THAT WAS TO COME. Not Him who already was, speaking of the Son. Gabriel told Mary the only reason Jesus was called SON OF GOD was because the Spirit would overshadow her and there would be a Father and Mother situation. SON demands a Father and mother both. Not just a Father. Adam Clarke diverged from trinitarians on this issue, and I think he was right.

[StillStanding]

I think you should make it a matter of urgency to talk to Pastor Hardwick and to Pastor Dan Scott. I do not think you should leave without them knowing why and hearing them out.
The problem with a lot of this is the Senior Pastors have not taught the younger ones what to do and how to do it!
I know at Free Chapel when Pastor Jentezen Franklin baptizes - he always uses the name of Jesus Christ in water baptism, but when the other ministers baptize - they do not. Somebody is going to be held accountable especially when doctrinally - CC has always baptized using the name of Jesus Christ.

Good advice! Pastor Scott told a friend of ours that he always has and always will baptize in Jesus name. After all, it's in CC's statement of faith that they baptize in Jesus name. The problem is that he rarely baptizes anyone anymore. I think the problem is that he's chosen underlings that have no connection with Apostolic/UPC background like Bro. Hardwick required of his assistants. They probably didn't think it was a big deal!

Red flags:
About a year ago, baptisms started being done while the choir or congregation is singing, so you can't hear what they're saying during baptisms.

The past two Sundays they have started singing the "Doxology".

[Amanah]

Foster has a great book called: "The Celebration of the Discipline". I just today pick up another of his books: "Prayer: Finding the Heart's True Home". Expecting it to be another great read. His writings are on the line of Phillip Yancy's, they have the unique ability to address the difficult things that Christians tend to gloss over, because they don't fit the "religious consensus".

I have both those books and enjoyed reading them. In fact, I may have all his books, and some of Dallas Willards. Took me several years to realize that they beleived in UR.

[ThePastorsCoach]

Good advice! Pastor Scott told a friend of ours that he always has and always will baptize in Jesus name. After all, it's in CC's statement of faith that they baptize in Jesus name. The problem is that he rarely baptizes anyone anymore. I think the problem is that he's chosen underlings that have no connection with Apostolic/UPC background like Bro. Hardwick required of his assistants. They probably didn't think it was a big deal!

Red flags:
About a year ago, baptisms started being done while the choir or congregation is singing, so you can't hear what they're saying during baptisms.

The past two Sundays they have started singing the "Doxology".

That is exactly what has happened at our church - but we do not sing the Doxology - yet! ;-)

[deltaguitar]

Good advice! Pastor Scott told a friend of ours that he always has and always will baptize in Jesus name. After all, it's in CC's statement of faith that they baptize in Jesus name. The problem is that he rarely baptizes anyone anymore. I think the problem is that he's chosen underlings that have no connection with Apostolic/UPC background like Bro. Hardwick required of his assistants. They probably didn't think it was a big deal!

Red flags:
About a year ago, baptisms started being done while the choir or congregation is singing, so you can't hear what they're saying during baptisms.

The past two Sundays they have started singing the "Doxology".

There is a big movement in the christian world back to doctrinally strong songs, hymns, and traditions. Is it possible that DS could be feeling the pressure from the younger ministers who are going to the big conferences and being influenced by Piper, Chandler, Driscol, etc?

[deltaguitar]

WORD is LOGOS and means thought or plan, though. that is why Romans 5 says Adam was made in the likeness of HIM THAT WAS TO COME. Not Him who already was, speaking of the Son. Gabriel told Mary the only reason Jesus was called SON OF GOD was because the Spirit would overshadow her and there would be a Father and Mother situation. SON demands a Father and mother both. Not just a Father. Adam Clarke diverged from trinitarians on this issue, and I think he was right.

So would you be comfortable with saying that a "thought" was with God and calling a "plan" God? An impersonal idea can't be God nor can it be with us or can it. I am asking a sincere question.

[Ferd]

I plan to do this, but I'll have to get in a L-O-N-G line!! Lots of people are upset! I think that's why our pastor is addressing the direction of the church this Sunday!

I hate this for you. However, I do not think I could personally trust anything that Dan Scott says. He has a history that is pretty clear and he said at some point he would not do some things again. Now he is doing those things...again...

His actions are pretty clear. I guess I would hear him out. But I am not sure it will mean much.

[StillStanding]

That is exactly what has happened at our church - but we do not sing the Doxology - yet! ;-)

:ursofunny Normally, I wouldn't question a change like that, but when you're concerned about wholesale changes concerning baptisms it makes you wonder whats being said.

For the record, I think "Doxology" is a beautiful song! It's just weird singing it from a Oneness perspective.

[Steve Epley]

Remember the story about the snake? The bottom line the snake was always a snake.

[ThePastorsCoach]

Remember the story about the snake? The bottom line the snake was always a snake.

You are hilarious! I am laughing so hard! ROFL!

[mfblume]

So would you be comfortable with saying that a "thought" was with God and calling a "plan" God? An impersonal idea can't be God nor can it be with us or can it. I am asking a sincere question.

One's thought is an expression of oneself. No man is any better than His word.

[Ferd]

You are hilarious! I am laughing so hard! ROFL!

here is another one that should give you a good belly laugh

We told you Dan Scott was a snake years ago. We got poo poo'd.

We were right.

[Sherri]

I can't sing the Doxology. Nope - just can't make myself do it. I don't want it in our church.:girlytantrum

[pelathais]

I read somewhere he was discharged from the University he was teaching. I forget what it was over so he might be unemployed instead of being an Anglican?

He resigned in protest over the school censuring a student in the History Department. Though he did not agree with the student's thesis, he resigned over "free speech" and "academic freedom" type issues. When he later sought reinstatement he was declined.

[pelathais]

I do remember those knock down drag outs we had. He is NOT Pentecostal. I feel a new church is getting ready to be birthed. When you leave tell him to stick in incense in his ear.:happydance In Jesus Name of course.:heeheehee:highfive

You had "knock down drag outs" with Dan Scott?

[pelathais]

He announced this past Sunday that he will preach a sermon about "where CC is headed (CC's future)" this coming Sunday. This came after an assistant preached a sermon telling everyone to stop complaining and accept change. Wouldn't you know it...I'll be in New York this weekend! I'm sure I'll hear all about it when I get back!

Concerning the robe, I was told DS was upset when a friend of ours asked him to NOT wear a robe when he performed their wedding!

I'm not making a knee-jerk decision to leave just yet! I'll give it to the end of the year to see how things pan out first. Unless.....another shoe falls!

I'm "perplexed" that Bro. Hardwick's legacy includes a discussion of this nature. I don't really have a problem with someone else "wearing robes" and all some place else... it's just not my thing. I suppose it's fun to play dress up but I take this particular task a bit more seriously. I suppose that is an entirely cultural bias.

[pelathais]

You gotta catch up with the times Pelanthesaurus! I have not attended CC for about two years now. Going to a local church because of health issues with my wife making the trip to CC too hard. That is why I told Steinway to call me - I am out of the loop on CC and what he posted was news to me and I wanted details!

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon11.gif You know me. When Si Si Juan speaks, I sit up and listen. Slavishly.

I don't really keep track... I just "listen."

[pelathais]

Come on, humor me, and explain yourself.:foottap

Are you saying that Thomas Fudge is no longer an Anglican?

I bet the fine folks at St. Anne's Episcopal Church would be surprised to find out that the good doctor looking after their adult education program is not Anglican.:happydance

In the past, when he's been called an "Anglican" on here it was with the idea that he was a member of the Anglican Clergy. I don't know the guy personally, and if the scurrilous stuff UPCers have said about him is even half true, then I would be left with the impression that he didn't attend any kind of church anywhere at all.

[pelathais]

Good advice! Pastor Scott told a friend of ours that he always has and always will baptize in Jesus name. After all, it's in CC's statement of faith that they baptize in Jesus name. The problem is that he rarely baptizes anyone anymore. I think the problem is that he's chosen underlings that have no connection with Apostolic/UPC background like Bro. Hardwick required of his assistants. They probably didn't think it was a big deal!

Red flags:
About a year ago, baptisms started being done while the choir or congregation is singing, so you can't hear what they're saying during baptisms.

The past two Sundays they have started singing the "Doxology".

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

That right there pretty much clears up whatever skepticism I had. Still, maybe next Sunday's message is to "straighten out" the aforementioned "underlings?" Dunno. But it seems that someone is operating with a certain level of disrespect for the church's heritage here.

[Amanah]

Would this be a doxology:

Praise God, from Whom all blessings flow;
Praise Him, all creatures here below;
Praise Him above, ye heavenly host;
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

if not can you explain what it is please

[pelathais]

Would this be a doxology:

Praise God, from Whom all blessings flow;
Praise Him, all creatures here below;
Praise Him above, ye heavenly host;
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

if not can you explain what it is please

"Holy, holy, holy
Merciful and Mighty
God in Three Persons
Blessed Trinity"

There are a few different types. Your's is probably the most recognized as "The Doxology" I think.

[StillStanding]

Would this be a doxology:

Praise God, from Whom all blessings flow;
Praise Him, all creatures here below;
Praise Him above, ye heavenly host;
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

if not can you explain what it is please
Yes, that's the song. Actually it's a beautiful song. It's just weird to sing it from my perspective on Oneness.

[Timmy]

Yes, that's the song. Actually it's a beautiful song. It's just weird to sing it from my perspective on Oneness.

What's weird about it, from the Oneness point of view?

[Jack Shephard]

CC1, do you go to Rag's church?

[TGBTG]

"Holy, holy, holy
Merciful and Mighty
God in Three Persons
Blessed Trinity"

There are a few different types. Your's is probably the most recognized as "The Doxology" I think.

This is how I sing this:

Holy, holy, holy
Merciful and Mighty
God in One Person
Blessed Jesus Christ

But then it kills the rhymes right?

[Sherri]

This is how I sing this:

Holy, holy, holy
Merciful and Mighty
God in One Person
Blessed Jesus Christ

But then it kills the rhymes right?
I think Vicky Yohe sang it "God in Christ Jesus, blessed unity."
At least it rhymes!:thumbsup

[CC1]

CC1, do you go to Rag's church?

No. I go to a church pastored by the former youth pastor of the UPC church in my bedroom community outside of Nashville. I think Rags was or is or did start a church in the Franklin area.

[StillStanding]

What's weird about it, from the Oneness point of view?

Singing a song that says, "Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost" instead of "Praise Jesus" or "Praise God"! We prefer "It's All in Him"! :happydance

[Steve Epley]

You had "knock down drag outs" with Dan Scott?

About DS on FCF or AFF I don't remember which? You was probably defending him and his incense.:thumbsup

[Timmy]

Singing a song that says, "Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost" instead of "Praise Jesus" or "Praise God"! We prefer "It's All in Him"! :happydance

It starts with praising God, singular. Ends by praising Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, thus equating those names (or titles) with that one God previously mentioned. Seems pretty Oneness, to me.

[pelathais]

About DS on FCF or AFF I don't remember which? You was probably defending him and his incense.:thumbsup

Don't really care for incense myself, but God seems to like it, for whatever reason (Exodus 30:7-9 & etc.). I didn't post on FCF - just lurked. I was still reeling at the time from shock over the way you UC's dump on your wives and fornicate. That had me really shook up for a while.

ew!:vomit

[Steve Epley]

AFF FORUM RULES

Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:

Those that believe that every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith
with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.

They buried that ages ago. Didn't last very long.

[Steve Epley]

Don't really care for incense myself, but God seems to like it, for whatever reason (Exodus 30:7-9 & etc.). I didn't post on FCF - just lurked. I was still reeling at the time from shock over the way you UC's dump on your wives and fornicate. That had me really shook up for a while.

ew!:vomit

What in the world are you talking about????????????? Might stay away from too much sacrament wine whole posting?

[pelathais]

What in the world are you talking about????????????? Might stay away from too much sacrament wine whole posting?

Never touch the stuff, and it's "sacramental." "Mental..." that ought to be easy for you to remember. S-A-B-E-L-L-I-U-S.

I'm talking about the disgusting sexual appetites of those who label themselves as "Ultra-Cons." If you could read the archives of NFCF, APF and many other forums you'd see exactly what I mean. That, and the stuff you guys threw in my face when I was misled into thinking I needed the fellowship. Plus covering for one another's philandering and demanding that younger guys like me reschedule our youth meetings to host one of your buddies and give him cover after he was found in our district traveling with his secretary.

You guys are gross. How do you think Ike Terry got the nickname "Boner" from that crowd? You probably heard Bro. Terry tell that story once or five times if you knew him. You mentioning FCF just brings up memories from those days, that's all. They aren't particularly happy memories, either. I was still just getting away from the madness and hillbilly "theology."

[Steve Epley]

Never touch the stuff, and it's "sacramental." "Mental..." that ought to be easy for you to remember. S-A-B-E-L-L-I-U-S.

I'm talking about the disgusting sexual appetites of those who label themselves as "Ultra-Cons." If you could read the archives of NFCF, APF and many other forums you'd see exactly what I mean. That, and the stuff you guys threw in my face when I was misled into thinking I needed the fellowship. Plus covering for one another's philandering and demanding that younger guys like me reschedule our youth meetings to host one of your buddies and give him cover after he was found in our district traveling with his secretary.

You guys are gross. How do you think Ike Terry got the nickname "Boner" from that crowd? You probably heard Bro. Terry tell that story once or five times if you knew him. You mentioning FCF just brings up memories from those days, that's all. They aren't particularly happy memories, either. I was still just getting away from the madness and hillbilly "theology."
In all honesty I do not have a clue about who are what you are talking about?

[pelathais]

In all honesty I do not have a clue about who are what you are talking about?

Cool, then. It's just that I used to be a part of a crowd whose "doctrine" you personify and they were all about the "You're going to hell...!" message like what you've shared recently.

These guys dominated the course and the agenda of the UPC for my entire life. I was largely clueless as a younger man. I thought that I just had to submit and subordinate myself and that my doubts about them were wrong and sinful thoughts.

It wasn't until I was older and held office in the org. that I began to see how these scoundrels lived and what they said to one another privately. Then, it was literally traumatizing for me. The "FCF" time period represents some very low points in my life. I lost a great friend (and a great preacher) to an "accident" that was caused in order to cover up the adultery of a more prominent pastor/evangelist. That was a HUGE wake up call for me.

Your statements offering blanket condemnations and sending complete strangers to hell on AFF aren't just a clear (and ignored) violation of the rules. They push those old buttons and rekindle a lot of pain for me.

How about this? Betwixt you and I - a truce? At least for now?

[Steve Epley]

Cool, then. It's just that I used to be a part of a crowd whose "doctrine" you personify and they were all about the "You're going to hell...!" message like what you've shared recently.

These guys dominated the course and the agenda of the UPC for my entire life. I was largely clueless as a younger man. I thought that I just had to submit and subordinate myself and that my doubts about them were wrong and sinful thoughts.

It wasn't until I was older and held office in the org. that I began to see how these scoundrels lived and what they said to one another privately. Then, it was literally traumatizing for me. The "FCF" time period represents some very low points in my life. I lost a great friend (and a great preacher) to an "accident" that was caused in order to cover up the adultery of a more prominent pastor/evangelist. That was a HUGE wake up call for me.

Your statements offering blanket condemnations and sending complete strangers to hell on AFF aren't just a clear (and ignored) violation of the rules. They push those old buttons and rekindle a lot of pain for me.

How about this? Betwixt you and I - a truce? At least for now?

Politics is a horrid animal regardless where it is practiced. It is unsettling and leaves lifelong scars. I wish I had never held any political office. The scars are there as a reminder 'never again.' I never covered up a moral sin to my knowledge but the calousness and predatoring left me a different person. So I understand your hurt. My feelings are doctrinal not political. I have promised God and myself I will sit in another political setting or in personal judgment of another preacher that is over.

[Sherri]

Pel, I'm so sorry for what you've gone through. I know you have very deep wounds and scars from it. But the majority of pastors, I believe, are good men. You happened to get hooked up with some hypocritical game-players, evidently - and I have no clue who you're talking about, so I can say that freely. The UPC and even the ultra conservative brethren who would send me to hell in a heartbeat - most of them are good sincere men who love God and are serving Him to the best of their abilities. I don't agree with them doctrinally, but I respect their position.

Don't let your bad experiences taint your feelings from now on. There are a bunch of good pastors out there.:thumbsup

[RandyWayne]

Pel, I'm so sorry for what you've gone through. I know you have very deep wounds and scars from it. But the majority of pastors, I believe, are good men. You happened to get hooked up with some hypocritical game-players, evidently - and I have no clue who you're talking about, so I can say that freely. The UPC and even the ultra conservative brethren who would send me to hell in a heartbeat - most of them are good sincere men who love God and are serving Him to the best of their abilities. I don't agree with them doctrinally, but I respect their position.

Don't let your bad experiences taint your feelings from now on. There are a bunch of good pastors out there.:thumbsup

I have to take exception to the bolded part. This, along with other conversations I hear when someone is being talked about and the conversation ends with "...but he's a good person", is just a way of covering ones back side. I've found that virtually all people who "send someone to hell in a heartbeat" do it with a certain barely-contained orgasmic glee and cackle in their voice. They are usually proud to be part of the super exclusive group known as "the elect" and wear it as a badge of honor along with being thankful they are not like the sinner standing next to them who is too ashamed of his sin to even lift his face. However the larger the group the less of a badge of honor it is! I do not believe these men are serving God first, rather they are serving themselves.

[Sherri]

I have to take exception to the bolded part. This, along with other conversations I hear when someone is being talked about and the conversation ends with "...but he's a good person", is just a way of covering ones back side. I've found that virtually all people who "send someone to hell in a heartbeat" do it with a certain barely-contained orgasmic glee and cackle in their voice. They are usually proud to be part of the super exclusive group known as "the elect" and wear it as a badge of honor along with being thankful they are not like the sinner standing next to them who is too ashamed of his sin to even lift his face. However the larger the group the less of a badge of honor it is! I do not believe these men are serving God first, rather they are serving themselves.Hmmm....interesting. I just think that they really really do think that I'm headed for hell, and they want to correct me. I don't think they're bad men.

[Jack Shephard]

No. I go to a church pastored by the former youth pastor of the UPC church in my bedroom community outside of Nashville. I think Rags was or is or did start a church in the Franklin area.

You are right. It's called The Hills Fellowship Church or something along those lines. It's apparently going rather well. I think you are right about it being in Franklin, but since I don't live there and haven't been then I cannot say with a good amount of certainty. I follow him on Twitter and he is always posting things about the church.

[Jack Shephard]

Hmmm....interesting. I just think that they really really do think that I'm headed for hell, and they want to correct me. I don't think they're bad men.

But, Sherri, it seems that a decent amount of men and women are reaching out the right hand of fellowship, but are at the ready to smack ya with their lefts. It's not a blanket statement because I know there are some, or a lot, that don't act or feel this way. But because there are some that do it drowns out the quieter voices of those that are more "co-existent" with those like you or I. Sure they believe you and I are headed to hell, but they might also tell their daughters and sons that too if they were like us. These I am speaking about are hardnecks and aren't too loving. IMO.

[Jermyn Davidson]

But, Sherri, it seems that a decent amount of men and women are reaching out the right hand of fellowship, but are at the ready to smack ya with their lefts. It's not a blanket statement because I know there are some, or a lot, that don't act or feel this way. But because there are some that do it drowns out the quieter voices of those that are more "co-existent" with those like you or I. Sure they believe you and I are headed to hell, but they might also tell their daughters and sons that too if they were like us. These I am speaking about are hardnecks and aren't too loving. IMO.

A few of the people I thought were my friends purposely don't keep in touch, with 1 guy even telling me to not call back again because we had nothing in common. He lives in NC last I checked and I remember that area having a lot of Apostolics who were like that anyway.

A couple of the people who were my friends before still keep in touch.

All of them think I am the one who is deceived and under the attack of satan, or simply lost.

[Jack Shephard]

A few of the people I thought were my friends purposely don't keep in touch, with 1 guy even telling me to not call back again because we had nothing in common. He lives in NC last I checked and I remember that area having a lot of Apostolics who were like that anyway.

A couple of the people who were my friends before still keep in touch.

All of them think I am the one who is deceived and under the attack of satan, or simply lost.

It's an all too common tune I hear. This isn't just a pentecostal thing either. I live in an area of the country where a lot Mormons live. Outside of Utah the Phoenix area has the highest # of Mormons than anyother city in America. Anyway, they are just as bad as we have been about cutting off those that leave. No matter the sign outside your church door it's an ugly thing when this happens.

[Timmy]

It's an all too common tune I hear. This isn't just a pentecostal thing either. I live in an area of the country where a lot Mormons live. Outside of Utah the Phoenix area has the highest # of Mormons than anyother city in America. Anyway, they are just as bad as we have been about cutting off those that leave. No matter the sign outside your church door it's an ugly thing when this happens.

And it's ugliest when it's family.

[Jack Shephard]

And it's ugliest when it's family.

I agree, 100%. In the church, if you are really tied in, there is a thin line between family and friends. I think this is heightened when you are in a smaller church community. No matter whom it might be that is hurting us it still cuts to the bone.

[Steve Epley]

Steinway the news?

[Sherri]

I think Steinway was as Brooklyn Tab yesterday. He may still be there, running the aisles or something.

[Stephanas]

Steinway the news?

Go here and listen for yourself:

http://www.christchurchnashville.org/audio/podcast/xml/podcast.xml

[Jack Shephard]

Go here and listen for yourself:

http://www.christchurchnashville.org/audio/podcast/xml/podcast.xml

Can you give us a Cliff note version?

[Ferd]

Can you give us a Cliff note version?

im listening now.


16minutes in and it aint bad. stuff like there are lost people who need to be saved. We need to win people to Christ. stop laying religion... etc.

He is talking about winnning people that are of every background and demographic etc.

[Ferd]

"this is a charismatic church. That means from time to time you are going to hear tongues speaking. I dont know what to tell you, read the book of Acts and get over it"

[Jack Shephard]

im listening now.


16minutes in and it aint bad. stuff like there are lost people who need to be saved. We need to win people to Christ. stop laying religion... etc.

He is talking about winnning people that are of every background and demographic etc.

Thanks! I am going to listen soon, but I have somethings to accomplish at work first. :thumbsup

[Jack Shephard]

"this is a charismatic church. That means from time to time you are going to hear tongues speaking. I dont know what to tell you, read the book of Acts and get over it"

That's awesome!

[Ferd]

Communion is a vital aspect of our faith and we will do it respectfully... etc

it is one of the few things Jesus commanded people to do and if it was that important to him, it will remain important to us.... getting kinda anglican... hee hee

[Stephanas]

Go here and listen for yourself:

http://www.christchurchnashville.org/audio/podcast/xml/podcast.xml

Reading between the lines: We support our young leaders and leaders from other spiritual cultures even though they do things different than we have historically done; Our new cultural and spiritual direction will cause us to lose some of our older and wealthier members, requiring more of a volunteer culture in the future; We will intentionally become a less modern church, more aligned with historic christianity; We don't need a Steinway because we have lots of cool guitars.:happydance

The great thing about reading between the lines is that you can add in anything that you like or don't like, and the speaker's actual words are irrelevant.:heeheehee

[Jack Shephard]

I'm starting to listen right now.

[Ferd]

“This church also remains committed to those core teachings of Christian faith and those core Christian Doctrines found in the Apostles Creed, written about 98AD. This has been our stance for 30 years. C. S. Lewis called this teaching “mere Christianity”. You can call it whatever you want to. It’s got different names. Some of those names scare people but whatever. It’s the essential core element of biblical Christianity and this church believes it and teaches it.”

Anybody care to explain what this means?

[Jack Shephard]

“This church also remains committed to those core teachings of Christian faith and those core Christian Doctrines found in the Apostles Creed, written about 98AD. This has been our stance for 30 years. C. S. Lewis called this teaching “mere Christianity”. You can call it whatever you want to. It’s got different names. Some of those names scare people but whatever. It’s the essential core element of biblical Christianity and this church believes it and teaches it.”

Anybody care to explain what this means?

Just that the theme of the Bible is one God that is revealed in different manifestations....I'm thinking.

[Ferd]

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;

He descended into hell. [See Calvin]

The third day He arose again from the dead;

He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.

Amen.

[Jack Shephard]

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;

He descended into hell. [See Calvin]

The third day He arose again from the dead;

He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.

Amen.

The word catholic was used as a word to that means "one" So I'm told

[Ferd]

The word catholic was used as a word to that means "one" So I'm told

Dude, I just copied and pasted...

[Jack Shephard]

Dude, I just copied and pasted...

I know. I was just saing what I have been told about it. I wasn't trying to make any corrections.

[Ferd]

Well, I listend pretty closely and the one question that matters was not answered, unless the quote from Stehpanas and the quote about the Apostles Creed are indications....


dont look good for Oneness doctrine.

[Ferd]

CC1 would not be happy. Dan started yelling at the end of it.

[Stephanas]

Well, I listend pretty closely and the one question that matters was not answered, unless the quote from Stehpanas and the quote about the Apostles Creed are indications....


dont look good for Oneness doctrine.

Hey - just for clarity - I didn't quote anything.

I just made some tongue-in-cheek commentary.

But, like all humour, my remarks have some element of truth: "Phoenix here we come!"

He was unapologetically standing behind the young leaders and uncompromisingly supporting the current direction of the church.

[Jack Shephard]

Well, I listend pretty closely and the one question that matters was not answered, unless the quote from Stehpanas and the quote about the Apostles Creed are indications....


dont look good for Oneness doctrine.

What was not answered?

[Ferd]

What was not answered?

Well JT, the start of this tHread is all about some of his staff baptizing people in the titles and doing the sign of the cross in catholic (read anglican?) fashion...

He didnt denounce this. He didnt state the church would continue along its historical line by baptizing in Jesus Name.

He didnt address it. outside of standing behind the new guys from different traditional backgrounds, pointing out he was sending them to siminary (anglican) and pointing to the Apostles Creed.

[Amanah]

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Maker of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:

Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
born of the virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;

He descended into hell. [See Calvin]

The third day He arose again from the dead;

He ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Ghost;
the holy catholic church;
the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting.

Amen.

I remember that from when I was a catholic

catholic means universal btw

[Jack Shephard]

Well JT, the start of this tHread is all about some of his staff baptizing people in the titles and doing the sign of the cross in catholic (read anglican?) fashion...

He didnt denounce this. He didnt state the church would continue along its historical line by baptizing in Jesus Name.

He didnt address it. outside of standing behind the new guys from different traditional backgrounds, pointing out he was sending them to siminary (anglican) and pointing to the Apostles Creed.

Ok. I thought that was what you were talking about, but I didn't wanna just think I was right. If he, DS, doesn't see a difference in Jesus name baptism and FSH baptism then he may not have addressed it because he may not think it is an issue. But when he said that people might leave that might have been his way of addressing that or those types of things.

[Amanah]

I wonder if they will start wearing pointy hats and carrying staves and such

[deltaguitar]

Well JT, the start of this tHread is all about some of his staff baptizing people in the titles and doing the sign of the cross in catholic (read anglican?) fashion...

He didnt denounce this. He didnt state the church would continue along its historical line by baptizing in Jesus Name.

He didnt address it. outside of standing behind the new guys from different traditional backgrounds, pointing out he was sending them to siminary (anglican) and pointing to the Apostles Creed.

Did he really address it or did he dance around it? Why don't these guys just come right out and say what they believe?

[Ferd]

Ok. I thought that was what you were talking about, but I didn't wanna just think I was right. If he, DS, doesn't see a difference in Jesus name baptism and FSH baptism then he may not have addressed it because he may not think it is an issue. But when he said that people might leave that might have been his way of addressing that or those types of things.

DS knows there is a difference even if he has decided there isnt. Maybe not in terms of doctrinal differences but he knows his own roots and those of this church.

not addressing it is in my mind at least a clear indication as to his direction.

if this was my home church, I would not be happy and there would be a frank conversation with DS.

I suspect I would have to leave but I would make sure people knew why I was leaving.

[Ferd]

I wonder if they will start wearing pointy hats and carrying staves and such

well, he did some of that funny stuff in AZ and got the boot...

[Jack Shephard]

DS knows there is a difference even if he has decided there isnt. Maybe not in terms of doctrinal differences but he knows his own roots and those of this church.

not addressing it is in my mind at least a clear indication as to his direction.

if this was my home church, I would not be happy and there would be a frank conversation with DS.

I suspect I would have to leave but I would make sure people knew why I was leaving.

That is the OP in ya talking. :icecream

I am not sure by not addressing it that he is leaving it alone all together. He might be talking with those younger ministers and getting them on track. We really don't know. Perhaps because the church is large and had many people coming through the doors every Sunday he might not wanted to address it because maybe he thinks not many people know about it. Just a thought or two.

[Jack Shephard]

well, he did some of that funny stuff in AZ and got the boot...

I have heard the same. I didn't hear it first hand, but I did hear it from a family member of someone that went there. Who knows what really went on with that or his motivations. Many unanswered questions.

[Ferd]

That is the OP in ya talking. :icecream

I am not sure by not addressing it that he is leaving it alone all together. He might be talking with those younger ministers and getting them on track. We really don't know. Perhaps because the church is large and had many people coming through the doors every Sunday he might not wanted to address it because maybe he thinks not many people know about it. Just a thought or two.

yep. its the OP in me talking. It is my fondest hope that there are still some OPs in that church now. I doubt it will matter. DS is gonna do what he wants.

[deltaguitar]

I am wondering if people really know that the church is different. Could it be that there are hundreds that go there who don't even know that the church has Oneness beliefs?

I know that when our church had the big split we had a lot of new converts that really didn't know that the church believed many things the UPC taught.

[Ferd]

I have heard the same. I didn't hear it first hand, but I did hear it from a family member of someone that went there. Who knows what really went on with that or his motivations. Many unanswered questions.

JT, it was fully and roundly discussed here or NFCF etc.

and it was pointed out by many of us that DS would do this eventually when he first went to CC.

[Jack Shephard]

yep. its the OP in me talking. It is my fondest hope that there are still some OPs in that church now. I doubt it will matter. DS is gonna do what he wants.

Agreed. I wonder what L.H. Hardwick thinks about it all...?

[Jack Shephard]

JT, it was fully and roundly discussed here or NFCF etc.

and it was pointed out by many of us that DS would do this eventually when he first went to CC.

I know that. I participated in it. I am not sure if all of it was fact, but it was all from pretty solid sources.