He who restraineth???

[kclee4jc]

II Thessalonians 2:7
"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (Greek-restraineth) will let until he be taken out of the way"

Who is restraining?

What is he restraining?

Where will he be taken to when he is taken out of the way?

[Praxeas]

I never knew "restraineth" was a greek word lol

[houston]

I never knew "restraineth" was a greek word lol

:spit

[kclee4jc]

I never knew "restraineth" was a greek word lol

oh good grief! seriously...anyone got an answer??

[houston]

Bro, why don't you tell us what you think it means?

[kclee4jc]

BC i don't know..

That's why i'm asking lol

I'm sure i'll come up with something, just tryin to get some other's input.

[houston]

BC i don't know..

That's why i'm asking lol

I'm sure i'll come up with something, just tryin to get some other's input.

Trinitarian eschatology teaches:

1) God the Holy Spirit is going to lift from the earth and then the mythical Antichrist character is going to come on the scene.

OR

2) The church's presence is keeping the same mythical character from appearing on the scene. The character will make his debut after the rapture.

[mfblume]

I posted this some time back...


In 2 Thessalonians 2, we read about a man of sin and son of perdition. A falling away occurs and then this person is revealed. He opposes and exalts himself above all that is of God, and exalts himself in the temple. He proposes that he is God, himself.

For the sake of information and strong consideration let me show what history has stated, as well as witnesses from believers through the centuries as to who the son of perdition may refer to, although we may not agree with everything the following believers wrote or believed in other issues of truth.

Victorinus spoke of the prophecy of 2 Thessalonians and proposed it involved Rome and the wicked one being Nero.

“And after many plagues completed in the world, in the end he says that a beast ascended from the abyss…that is, of the Romans. Moreover that he was in the kingdom of the Romans, and that he was among the Caesars. The Apostle Paul also bears witness, for he says to the Thessalonians: Let him who now restraineth restrain, until he be taken out of the way; and then shall appear the Wicked One, even he whose coming is after the working of Satan, with signs an lying wonders.’ And that they might know that he should come who then was the prince, he adds: ‘He already endeavours after the secret of mischief’ – that is, the mischief which he is about to do he strives to do secretly; but he is not raised up by his own power, nor by that of his father, but by command of God.”

Victorinus, Commentary on the Apocalypse, ad 11:7; Ante-Nicene Fathers, p. 354

Augustine (A.D. 354-430) is even more explicit:

“Some think that these words refer to the Roman empire, and that the apostle Paul did not wish to write more explicitly, lest he should incur a charge of calumny against the Roman empire, in wishing ill to it when men hoped that it was to be everlasting. So in the words: ‘For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work’ he referred to Nero, whose deeds already seemed to be as those of Antichrist.”

Augustine, City of God, XX, xix; cf., Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V, xxv-xxviii; Lactanius, Divine Inst. VII, xxv

J. Stuart Russell wrote these words in the Parousia of Christ,

“At that time Nero was not yet ‘manifested;’ his true character was not discovered; he had not yet succeeded to the Empire. Claudius, his step-father, lived, and stood in the way of the son of Agrippina. But that hindrance was soon removed. In less than a year, probably, after this epistle was received by the Thessalonians, Claudius was ‘taken out of the way,’ a victim to the deadly practice of the infamous Agrippina; her son also, according to Suetonius, being accessory to the deed.”

J. Stuart Russell, The Parousia (1887, London, T. Fisher Unwin; republished 1983, 1999 by Baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI), pp. 182, 183

It is interesting that some Greek scholars have noted that "he who letteth" is the Greek phrase, "ha katechon." And in Latin, this is translated to "qui claudit." Some believe this is a somewhat subtle way of pointing the finger at Claudius Caesar who ruled before Nero, and that when Claudius was removed from office as Caesar, Nero would be revealed. A similar belief is held about the number of the Beast, 666, being the gematriacal equivalent to Neron Keser, or Nero Caesar. It is a historical fact that Claudius held back persecution of the church. He commanded a ruling entitled "religio licita" which disallowed Christian persecution and even banished some Jews from Rome because of their riots against "Chrestus", referring to Christ and Christians. (Suetonius, Lives of the Caesars, Claudius, XXV, 4. Cf. Acts 18:2). This means Jews could not persecute the church so long as Claudius remained in power. His wife, Agrippina, poisoned him and her son, Nero, came to power, showing that the one who restrained was removed so the wicked one could be revealed. Nero's wife Poppaea was a Jewish proselyte and brought the Jews back into favour in Rome. The mystery of iniquity, which could be seen as antichristian power of persecution, was then allowed back as Nero became emperor.

Lactantius (A.D. 260-330) wrote:

And while Nero reigned, the Apostle Peter came to Rome, and, through the power of God committed unto him, wrought certain miracles, and, by turning many to the rue religion, built up a faithful and stedfast temple unto the Lord. When Nero heard of those things, and observed that not only in Rome, but in every other place, a great multitude revolted daily from the worship of idols, and , condemning their old ways, went over to the new religion, he, an execrable and pernicious tyrant, sprung forward to raze the heavenly temple and destroy the true faith. He it was who first persecuted the servants of God; he crucified Peter, and slew Paul; nor did he escape with impunity; for God looked on the affliction of His people; and therefore the tyrant, bereaved of authority, and precipitated from the height of empire, suddenly disappeared, and even the a burial-place of that noxious wild beast was nowhere to be seen.

Lactantius, Of the Manner in which the Persecutors Died, Chpt. II; Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. VII, p. 302; cf. Divine Institutes, VII, xvii

Chrysostom (A.D. 347 to 407) wrote:
"For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work." He speaks here of Nero... But he did not also wish to point him out plainly: and this not from cowardice, but instructing us not to bring upon ourselves unnecessary enmities, when there is nothing to call for it.

St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on II Thess., Nicene-Post Nicene Fathers, Vol. XXIII

What about the charge of lying wonders? History shows that Nero was hailed in Rome as "Nero the Hercules. Nero the Apollo. Thou August, August! Sacred voice! Eternal one." (Commentary on Apocalypse , Chapter 8, If one calls himself a God, then it stands to reason he claims to perform wonders and supernatural miracles.

[Michael The Disciple]

Nero was the man of sin? When was he revealed in the temple of God showing himself as God? And if this took place 2000 years ago what happened to the coming of Jesus? Far out man.

[Aquila]

Nero was the man of sin? When was he revealed in the temple of God showing himself as God? And if this took place 2000 years ago what happened to the coming of Jesus? Far out man.

Rev. Blume is a Partial Preterist. While I'm not sure of your eschatology, I'm guessing you're not. That means, what of you "perfect" saints are teaching an error (if not both of you). lol ;)

So much for "perfection".

[berkeley]

Where is MTD's Antichrist going to sit? There is no temple, not one stone...

[mfblume]

Nero was the man of sin? When was he revealed in the temple of God showing himself as God? And if this took place 2000 years ago what happened to the coming of Jesus? Far out man.

You know better than to ask these questions. lol. Nero said he was God and commanded a statue of himself to be made and adored that was 200 feet high. Jesus is coming again, which you KNOW I believe, but he came in localized judgment against Jerusalem according to Matt 24 and Matt 21:40 2000 years ago. Like I said elsewhere, the details of who Jesus said the harlot were and Jesus' words to those standing and hearing Him, who would be alive when He came, reveal it all. You have to deny Christ's own words about the whore's identity to remain post trib.

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=36455

2 Thess 1 says His coming would be with vengeance on those who persecuted the Thessalonians 2,000 years ago. That cannot be so if THAT coming is yet in our future.

2Th 1:4-10 KJV So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: (5) Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: (6) Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; (7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, (8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: (9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (10) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

[Praxeas]

oh good grief! seriously...anyone got an answer??
And lo, Praxeas doth have an answer to thine question. Thou shalt surely findeth thine answer in the Holy Ghost

[mfblume]

I cannot see the Holy GHost ever being taken out of the way for anything. He never left the world when Christ was crucified. Wat could be worse than that crucifixion?

[Praxeas]

I cannot see the Holy GHost ever being taken out of the way for anything. He never left the world when Christ was crucified. Wat could be worse than that crucifixion?
Huh? I don't understand your point. What does the crucifixion have to do with it? Or never having left when Christ was crucified?

[Michael The Disciple]

II Thessalonians 2:7
"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (Greek-restraineth) will let until he be taken out of the way"

Who is restraining?

What is he restraining?

Where will he be taken to when he is taken out of the way?

The restrainer is Michael the archangel. If you do a search say like:

"Is Michael The Archangel The Restrainer" it should produce plenty of studies. I saw this about 15 years ago since then I see that many others have come to understand. They may have differing strands of how they see the events around it but agree he is the one who "withholds"

[Hoovie]

You know better than to ask these questions. lol. Nero said he was God and commanded a statue of himself to be made and adored that was 200 feet high. Jesus is coming again, which you KNOW I believe, but he came in localized judgment against Jerusalem according to Matt 24 and Matt 21:40 2000 years ago. Like I said elsewhere, the details of who Jesus said the harlot were and Jesus' words to those standing and hearing Him, who would be alive when He came, reveal it all. You have to deny Christ's own words about the whore's identity to remain post trib.

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=36455

2 Thess 1 says His coming would be with vengeance on those who persecuted the Thessalonians 2,000 years ago. That cannot be so if THAT coming is yet in our future.

2Th 1:4-10 KJV So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: (5) Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: (6) Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; (7) And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, (8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: (9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (10) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


Where in particular can I read more about Nero/statue?

[mfblume]

Huh? I don't understand your point. What does the crucifixion have to do with it? Or never having left when Christ was crucified?

The implication in saying the Holy Ghost restrains says that the Spirit leaves the earth and withdraws. Not sure if you believe that. Those who do have a problem. It's like the Spirit has to leave the world for the evil of the son of perdition to occur, but there was more evil when Christ was crucified than anything that ever did or ever will happen. So. if the Spirit never left then, why would it have to leave for 2 Thess 2 to occur? That applies, though, only if you think the restraining being removed means the Spirit leaves the world.

[mfblume]

Where in particular can I read more about Nero/statue?

I googled it after someone told me about it. Acutally it was 120 ft. high. My mistake. It was called the Colossus. The colosseum was named after the statue!

http://www.unrv.com/culture/colosseum.php


The Colosseum, (the Flavian Amphitheatre) is one of Rome's most famous buildings and enduring monuments to the culture of the ancient Romans. Construction was initiated by the Emperor Vespasian around 72 AD. His son Titus reigned over its completion and the official opening ceremonies, about 8 years later, in 80 AD. It was built near the site of Nero's Domus Aurea "Golden House". This is significant in that his successor, Vespasian wanted to erase the memory of Nero's extravagant reign from the minds of Romans. It got its popular name, the Colosseum, because of Nero's colossus (120 ft. high) statue of himself, which was nearby.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus_of_Nero

The Colossus Neronis was an enormous, 30 m bronze statue that the Emperor Nero (37–68 AD) erected in the vestibule of his Domus Aurea, the imperial villa complex on the Palatine Hill. It was modified by Nero's successors into a statue of the sun god Sol Invictus. It is last mentioned in the 4th century AD. The Colosseum is probably named after the statue that stood near its site, but not by the Romans themselves or other people many centuries after them.

[Praxeas]

The implication in saying the Holy Ghost restrains says that the Spirit leaves the earth and withdraws. Not sure if you believe that. Those who do have a problem. It's like the Spirit has to leave the world for the evil of the son of perdition to occur, but there was more evil when Christ was crucified than anything that ever did or ever will happen. So. if the Spirit never left then, why would it have to leave for 2 Thess 2 to occur? That applies, though, only if you think the restraining being removed means the Spirit leaves the world.
No that's not the implcation no more than Jesus coming down from heaven means He ceased being God by no longer being omnipresent.

That verse does not say the Spirit left. It says "caused to be out of the middle" literally

The Spirit isn't being removed from the earth. The Spirit is being removed from the duty of restraining the lawless one

[houston]

MTA is the restrainer? Please tell me that you are not ref. to the book of Daniel where MTA quarrels with the P.O.P. or the NT ref. where MTA simply tells Satan, the Lord rebuke thee.

[mfblume]

No that's not the implcation no more than Jesus coming down from heaven means He ceased being God by no longer being omnipresent.

That verse does not say the Spirit left. It says "caused to be out of the middle" literally

The Spirit isn't being removed from the earth. The Spirit is being removed from the duty of restraining the lawless one

That sounds better for sure. However, if that is the case, then it is a redundant point, I think, since God's Spirit would ultimately be behind anything that is restrained.

[Lafon]

TIME is "...what withholdeth that he [i.e., Anti-Christ] might be revealed in his [own appointed] time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: [that is] only he who now letteth will let [that is to say, the passage of TIME], until he be taken out of the way." (emphasis added).

Consider this which might enable one to grasp why TIME is that which presently prevents the manifestation of the "man of sin... the son of perdition":

From the beginning God established a plan wherein all things would occur at the "TIME" which He prescribed; such shall it be when the Anti-Christ will make his debut.... and not one moment before! In like manner as He established a specific moment that He would become manifest in a human body, thus shall it be for the "man of sin's" manifestation upon the earth.

[mfblume]

TIME is "...what withholdeth that he [i.e., Anti-Christ] might be revealed in his [own appointed] time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: [that is] only he who now letteth will let [that is to say, the passage of TIME], until he be taken out of the way." (emphasis added).

Consider this which might enable one to grasp why TIME is that which presently prevents the manifestation of the "man of sin... the son of perdition":

From the beginning God established a plan wherein all things would occur at the "TIME" which He prescribed; such shall it be when the Anti-Christ will make his debut.... and not one moment before! In like manner as He established a specific moment that He would become manifest in a human body, thus shall it be for the "man of sin's" manifestation upon the earth.

That is what I once believed when I was a futurist.

[Lafon]

That is what I once believed when I was a futurist.

Mike, I'm truly saddened to have already discovered that you still aren't. And no, thanks, I don't want to engage in a debate about alternative beliefs of end-time prophecy... been there, done that! (BTW, I am not a proponent/adherent of so-called "Rapturist" teachings, but do embrace a belief in a future resurrection of the righteous.)

[Praxeas]

That sounds better for sure. However, if that is the case, then it is a redundant point, I think, since God's Spirit would ultimately be behind anything that is restrained.
How is it redundant? My point is redundant? I was answering a question as to who "he" refers to. I don't see how that is redundant

[LUKE2447]

The restrainer is michael the archangel

[mfblume]

How is it redundant? My point is redundant? I was answering a question as to who "he" refers to. I don't see how that is redundant

Your response is not redundant. Answering the point with your opinion is not redundant. I was saying that it would be redundant for Paul to imply the Holy Ghost being the restrainer if it was indeed the Holy Ghost he referred to. For that reason, I think it cannot be the Holy Ghost, is all I am saying.

[mfblume]

Mike, I'm truly saddened to have already discovered that you still aren't. And no, thanks, I don't want to engage in a debate about alternative beliefs of end-time prophecy... been there, done that! (BTW, I am not a proponent/adherent of so-called "Rapturist" teachings, but do embrace a belief in a future resurrection of the righteous.)

It always amazed me how people take prophecy leanings to this extent that you claim you are saddened, especially when I still believe in a future resurrection, too. Whatever. I, also, have not discussed this with many here who truly and objectively discussed it when we dialogued. Most will not consider anything that disagrees with their present view, so they are not even dialoguing, really.

[mfblume]

The restrainer is michael the archangel

You're the second one who said that here, and I am surprised I never heard that view before.

[Praxeas]

Your response is not redundant. Answering the point with your opinion is not redundant. I was saying that it would be redundant for Paul to imply the Holy Ghost being the restrainer if it was indeed the Holy Ghost he referred to. For that reason, I think it cannot be the Holy Ghost, is all I am saying.
I don't see how it would be redundant for Paul to be referring to the Holy Ghost as the restrainer

[mfblume]

I don't see how it would be redundant for Paul to be referring to the Holy Ghost as the restrainer

I already said why I think it would be redundant. Ultimately the Holy Ghost restrains anything that is ever restrained by any lesser instrument.

[LUKE2447]

You're the second one who said that here, and I am surprised I never heard that view before.

I studied it when studying Prewrath view.

http://www.watchmanbiblestudy.com/biblestudies/definitions/Def_Restrainer.htm

Here is littel article on it. I have some very good ones somewhere. THe key IMO is when it talks about standing and sitting. Scanned the article and I am not sure how deep he went on that aspect in the book of Daniel and it's meaning.

[mfblume]

I studied it when studying Prewrath view.

http://www.watchmanbiblestudy.com/biblestudies/definitions/Def_Restrainer.htm

Here is littel article on it. I have some very good ones somewhere. THe key IMO is when it talks about standing and sitting. Scanned the article and I am not sure how deep he went on that aspect in the book of Daniel and it's meaning.

Thanks. Will check it out.

[Praxeas]

I already said why I think it would be redundant. Ultimately the Holy Ghost restrains anything that is ever restrained by any lesser instrument.
I read what you posted but the "why" part didn't make any sense.

The Holy Ghost also heals and fills and does all kinds of other things so why should Paul ever mention the Holy Ghost doing anything if it's gonna be redundant?

In fact if it's redundant and the HG restrains anything..isn't that an admission that the restrainer IS the HG?

Paul didn't say "the Holy Ghost is the restrainer"...He said when He is out of the way" and WE were asked "Who is the HE, Paul was talking about"...Paul is not being redundant. He is revealing something about when and how the Lawless one would be revealed

[mfblume]

I read what you posted but the "why" part didn't make any sense.

The Holy Ghost also heals and fills and does all kinds of other things so why should Paul ever mention the Holy Ghost doing anything if it's gonna be redundant?

In fact if it's redundant and the HG restrains anything..isn't that an admission that the restrainer IS the HG?

Paul didn't say "the Holy Ghost is the restrainer"...He said when He is out of the way" and WE were asked "Who is the HE, Paul was talking about"...Paul is not being redundant. He is revealing something about when and how the Lawless one would be revealed
I know Paul is not being redundant, but that is why I believe it cannot be the Holy Ghost.

[Praxeas]

That doesn't make any sense Mike. Being redundant is being excessive. That's like saying Paul said "Jesus is the savior" because it's obvious. Yet Paul didn't even say "The restrainer is the Holy Ghost"...using your logic that could be the only way Paul could have been redundant

[mfblume]

That doesn't make any sense Mike. Being redundant is being excessive. That's like saying Paul said "Jesus is the savior" because it's obvious. Yet Paul didn't even say "The restrainer is the Holy Ghost"...using your logic that could be the only way Paul could have been redundant

Not sure why you are still talking about this, but I cannot get away from Paul simply saying the son of perdition is being restrained, rather than explicitly point out a restrainer. And to me it would be redundant if he implied the Holy Ghost for reasons I gave. Seems to me it would be something more particular than that for Paul to refer to a he like he did.

It doesn't fit to say the Holy Ghost would be "taken out of the way.". Where was such terms or even concept ever used for the Holy Ghost before?

[Praxeas]

Not sure why you are still talking about this, but I cannot get away from Paul simply saying the son of perdition is being restrained, rather than explicitly point out a restrainer. And to me it would be redundant if he implied the Holy Ghost for reasons I gave. Seems to me it would be something more particular than that for Paul to refer to a he like he did.

It doesn't fit to say the Holy Ghost would be "taken out of the way.". Where was such terms or even concept ever used for the Holy Ghost before?
Why? Because that is the topic of the thread maybe?

He didn't imply anything but the fact that he was referring to a HE that is probably the Holy Ghost is no more redundant than repeating jesus is the Savior or Jesus is the Lord

[mfblume]

Why? Because that is the topic of the thread maybe?

I did not mean the topic but why you were interested in my issue, since I think we settled our differences in that. :) No biggie.



He didn't imply anything but the fact that he was referring to a HE that is probably the Holy Ghost is no more redundant than repeating jesus is the Savior or Jesus is the Lord

Whatever. I simply cannot see it as the Spirit being "taken out of the way." Sounds like a third party, not a third person. lol

[mfblume]

bump
I posted this some time back...


In 2 Thessalonians 2, we read about a man of sin and son of perdition. A falling away occurs and then this person is revealed. He opposes and exalts himself above all that is of God, and exalts himself in the temple. He proposes that he is God, himself.

For the sake of information and strong consideration let me show what history has stated, as well as witnesses from believers through the centuries as to who the son of perdition may refer to, although we may not agree with everything the following believers wrote or believed in other issues of truth.

Victorinus spoke of the prophecy of 2 Thessalonians and proposed it involved Rome and the wicked one being Nero.

“And after many plagues completed in the world, in the end he says that a beast ascended from the abyss…that is, of the Romans. Moreover that he was in the kingdom of the Romans, and that he was among the Caesars. The Apostle Paul also bears witness, for he says to the Thessalonians: Let him who now restraineth restrain, until he be taken out of the way; and then shall appear the Wicked One, even he whose coming is after the working of Satan, with signs an lying wonders.’ And that they might know that he should come who then was the prince, he adds: ‘He already endeavours after the secret of mischief’ – that is, the mischief which he is about to do he strives to do secretly; but he is not raised up by his own power, nor by that of his father, but by command of God.”

Victorinus, Commentary on the Apocalypse, ad 11:7; Ante-Nicene Fathers, p. 354

Augustine (A.D. 354-430) is even more explicit:

“Some think that these words refer to the Roman empire, and that the apostle Paul did not wish to write more explicitly, lest he should incur a charge of calumny against the Roman empire, in wishing ill to it when men hoped that it was to be everlasting. So in the words: ‘For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work’ he referred to Nero, whose deeds already seemed to be as those of Antichrist.”

Augustine, City of God, XX, xix; cf., Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V, xxv-xxviii; Lactanius, Divine Inst. VII, xxv

J. Stuart Russell wrote these words in the Parousia of Christ,

“At that time Nero was not yet ‘manifested;’ his true character was not discovered; he had not yet succeeded to the Empire. Claudius, his step-father, lived, and stood in the way of the son of Agrippina. But that hindrance was soon removed. In less than a year, probably, after this epistle was received by the Thessalonians, Claudius was ‘taken out of the way,’ a victim to the deadly practice of the infamous Agrippina; her son also, according to Suetonius, being accessory to the deed.”

J. Stuart Russell, The Parousia (1887, London, T. Fisher Unwin; republished 1983, 1999 by Baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI), pp. 182, 183

It is interesting that some Greek scholars have noted that "he who letteth" is the Greek phrase, "ha katechon." And in Latin, this is translated to "qui claudit." Some believe this is a somewhat subtle way of pointing the finger at Claudius Caesar who ruled before Nero, and that when Claudius was removed from office as Caesar, Nero would be revealed. A similar belief is held about the number of the Beast, 666, being the gematriacal equivalent to Neron Keser, or Nero Caesar. It is a historical fact that Claudius held back persecution of the church. He commanded a ruling entitled "religio licita" which disallowed Christian persecution and even banished some Jews from Rome because of their riots against "Chrestus", referring to Christ and Christians. (Suetonius, Lives of the Caesars, Claudius, XXV, 4. Cf. Acts 18:2). This means Jews could not persecute the church so long as Claudius remained in power. His wife, Agrippina, poisoned him and her son, Nero, came to power, showing that the one who restrained was removed so the wicked one could be revealed. Nero's wife Poppaea was a Jewish proselyte and brought the Jews back into favour in Rome. The mystery of iniquity, which could be seen as antichristian power of persecution, was then allowed back as Nero became emperor.

Lactantius (A.D. 260-330) wrote:

And while Nero reigned, the Apostle Peter came to Rome, and, through the power of God committed unto him, wrought certain miracles, and, by turning many to the rue religion, built up a faithful and stedfast temple unto the Lord. When Nero heard of those things, and observed that not only in Rome, but in every other place, a great multitude revolted daily from the worship of idols, and , condemning their old ways, went over to the new religion, he, an execrable and pernicious tyrant, sprung forward to raze the heavenly temple and destroy the true faith. He it was who first persecuted the servants of God; he crucified Peter, and slew Paul; nor did he escape with impunity; for God looked on the affliction of His people; and therefore the tyrant, bereaved of authority, and precipitated from the height of empire, suddenly disappeared, and even the a burial-place of that noxious wild beast was nowhere to be seen.

Lactantius, Of the Manner in which the Persecutors Died, Chpt. II; Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. VII, p. 302; cf. Divine Institutes, VII, xvii

Chrysostom (A.D. 347 to 407) wrote:
"For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work." He speaks here of Nero... But he did not also wish to point him out plainly: and this not from cowardice, but instructing us not to bring upon ourselves unnecessary enmities, when there is nothing to call for it.

St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on II Thess., Nicene-Post Nicene Fathers, Vol. XXIII

What about the charge of lying wonders? History shows that Nero was hailed in Rome as "Nero the Hercules. Nero the Apollo. Thou August, August! Sacred voice! Eternal one." (Commentary on Apocalypse , Chapter 8, If one calls himself a God, then it stands to reason he claims to perform wonders and supernatural miracles.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I posted this some time back...


In 2 Thessalonians 2, we read about a man of sin and son of perdition. A falling away occurs and then this person is revealed. He opposes and exalts himself above all that is of God, and exalts himself in the temple. He proposes that he is God, himself.

For the sake of information and strong consideration let me show what history has stated, as well as witnesses from believers through the centuries as to who the son of perdition may refer to, although we may not agree with everything the following believers wrote or believed in other issues of truth.

Victorinus spoke of the prophecy of 2 Thessalonians and proposed it involved Rome and the wicked one being Nero.

“And after many plagues completed in the world, in the end he says that a beast ascended from the abyss…that is, of the Romans. Moreover that he was in the kingdom of the Romans, and that he was among the Caesars. The Apostle Paul also bears witness, for he says to the Thessalonians: Let him who now restraineth restrain, until he be taken out of the way; and then shall appear the Wicked One, even he whose coming is after the working of Satan, with signs an lying wonders.’ And that they might know that he should come who then was the prince, he adds: ‘He already endeavours after the secret of mischief’ – that is, the mischief which he is about to do he strives to do secretly; but he is not raised up by his own power, nor by that of his father, but by command of God.”

Victorinus, Commentary on the Apocalypse, ad 11:7; Ante-Nicene Fathers, p. 354

Augustine (A.D. 354-430) is even more explicit:

“Some think that these words refer to the Roman empire, and that the apostle Paul did not wish to write more explicitly, lest he should incur a charge of calumny against the Roman empire, in wishing ill to it when men hoped that it was to be everlasting. So in the words: ‘For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work’ he referred to Nero, whose deeds already seemed to be as those of Antichrist.”

Augustine, City of God, XX, xix; cf., Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V, xxv-xxviii; Lactanius, Divine Inst. VII, xxv

J. Stuart Russell wrote these words in the Parousia of Christ,

“At that time Nero was not yet ‘manifested;’ his true character was not discovered; he had not yet succeeded to the Empire. Claudius, his step-father, lived, and stood in the way of the son of Agrippina. But that hindrance was soon removed. In less than a year, probably, after this epistle was received by the Thessalonians, Claudius was ‘taken out of the way,’ a victim to the deadly practice of the infamous Agrippina; her son also, according to Suetonius, being accessory to the deed.”

J. Stuart Russell, The Parousia (1887, London, T. Fisher Unwin; republished 1983, 1999 by Baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI), pp. 182, 183

It is interesting that some Greek scholars have noted that "he who letteth" is the Greek phrase, "ha katechon." And in Latin, this is translated to "qui claudit." Some believe this is a somewhat subtle way of pointing the finger at Claudius Caesar who ruled before Nero, and that when Claudius was removed from office as Caesar, Nero would be revealed. A similar belief is held about the number of the Beast, 666, being the gematriacal equivalent to Neron Keser, or Nero Caesar. It is a historical fact that Claudius held back persecution of the church. He commanded a ruling entitled "religio licita" which disallowed Christian persecution and even banished some Jews from Rome because of their riots against "Chrestus", referring to Christ and Christians. (Suetonius, Lives of the Caesars, Claudius, XXV, 4. Cf. Acts 18:2). This means Jews could not persecute the church so long as Claudius remained in power. His wife, Agrippina, poisoned him and her son, Nero, came to power, showing that the one who restrained was removed so the wicked one could be revealed. Nero's wife Poppaea was a Jewish proselyte and brought the Jews back into favour in Rome. The mystery of iniquity, which could be seen as antichristian power of persecution, was then allowed back as Nero became emperor.

Lactantius (A.D. 260-330) wrote:

And while Nero reigned, the Apostle Peter came to Rome, and, through the power of God committed unto him, wrought certain miracles, and, by turning many to the rue religion, built up a faithful and stedfast temple unto the Lord. When Nero heard of those things, and observed that not only in Rome, but in every other place, a great multitude revolted daily from the worship of idols, and , condemning their old ways, went over to the new religion, he, an execrable and pernicious tyrant, sprung forward to raze the heavenly temple and destroy the true faith. He it was who first persecuted the servants of God; he crucified Peter, and slew Paul; nor did he escape with impunity; for God looked on the affliction of His people; and therefore the tyrant, bereaved of authority, and precipitated from the height of empire, suddenly disappeared, and even the a burial-place of that noxious wild beast was nowhere to be seen.

Lactantius, Of the Manner in which the Persecutors Died, Chpt. II; Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. VII, p. 302; cf. Divine Institutes, VII, xvii

Chrysostom (A.D. 347 to 407) wrote:
"For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work." He speaks here of Nero... But he did not also wish to point him out plainly: and this not from cowardice, but instructing us not to bring upon ourselves unnecessary enmities, when there is nothing to call for it.

St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on II Thess., Nicene-Post Nicene Fathers, Vol. XXIII

What about the charge of lying wonders? History shows that Nero was hailed in Rome as "Nero the Hercules. Nero the Apollo. Thou August, August! Sacred voice! Eternal one." (Commentary on Apocalypse , Chapter 8, If one calls himself a God, then it stands to reason he claims to perform wonders and supernatural miracles.

BUMP

[Sean]

Hitler was proclaimed a God also.

[Sean]

Return to Net-Abbey
Hitler as Messiah and god

hitler
Joseph Goebbels, Hitler’s chief propagandist, said in a broadcast on 19 April 1936, that "Germany has been transformed into a great house of the Lord where the Fuhrer as our mediator stands before the throne of God."

"Spiritual" sentiments of this kind were echoed time and again during Hitler’s glory years. Another powerful voice in the Nazi party, Dr. Robert Ley, proclaimed that "We believe on this earth in Adolf Hitler alone! We believe in National Socialism as the creed which is the sole source of grace!"

Where did such ridiculous rant come from? What strange brain concocted these weird myths about the paranoid dictator with the toothbrush mustache?

Of course it was Hitler himself who ordered that he be presented as a deified messiah.

Before coming to power in January of 1933, Hitler wrote about his reaction to Berlin on his first visit there: "The luxury, the perversion, the iniquity, the wanton display, and the Jewish materialism [of Berlin’s commercial district] disgusted me so thoroughly that I was almost beside myself," Hitler recalled. "I nearly imagined myself to be Jesus Christ when he came to his Father’s temple and found it full of money-changers. I can well imagine how he felt when he seized a whip and scourged them out."

When Hitler compared himself to Jesus, he was proclaiming his own divinity. Knowing as we do that Hitler’s ambitions were eventually blown to smithereens, it’s hard for us to realize how many Germans considered him a supernatural being.

But it is true. Millions of German households actually erected shrines that featured a photograph of what they thought of as their dictator’s divine countenance. They said prayers in his behalf — even directed prayers to him — throughout the day.

In the eyes of his people, Hitler had rescued them from the humiliations of their defeat in World War I. Better still, he was going to lead all Germans into a future of unrivaled glory.

hitler as a god

Hitler as Militant Aryan Messiah

Freed at last from the dreadful fears that military and economic catastrophe had aroused in them, Germans envisioned Hitler as a truly magical figure of majestic wisdom and power. They saw him as an irresistible force, and they surrendered their whole hearts to him. He hypnotized Germans into worshipping him, successfully presenting himself as a savior and even as God himself.

Except for the tabloids, the international media tended to downplay his most grandiose claims. But the Vatican understood how important it was to talk back to Hitler on the divinity issue. In 1937, Pope Pius XI issued an official letter entitled "With Burning Heart" that scorned Hitler for his claims to godhood.

[Sean]

Comparing Hitler to the Biblical Jesus


Hitler with Whip
My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.

--Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 12 April 1922


Hitler not only believed he did the Lords work, but he thought of himself as a sort of saviour of Germany, and emulated Jesus of the New Testament. His friend Dietrich Eckart told of overhearing Hitler showing off to a lady by denouncing Berlin in extravagant terms: ". . . the luxury, the perversion, the iniquity, the wanton display and the Jewish materialism disgusted me so thoroughly that I was almost beside myself. I nearly imagined myself to be Jesus Christ when he came to his Father's Temple and found the money changers." Eckart described Hitler as "brandishing his whip and exclaimed that it was his mission to descend upon the capital like a Christ and scourge the corrupt." [Toland p. 143]

(See John 2:14-15 where Jesus drove out the moneychangers with a "scourge of small cords" [a whip]).

The following examples show further how Hitler compared with Jesus of the Bible.



https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=16&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiNjcXdy6rYAhXi34MKHTSPAnkQFgh2MA8&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nobeliefs.com%2Fhitlerchrist ian.htm&usg=AOvVaw1QY13btREKrA6zQOge4lPc







And this source was written from an atheists' point of view.

[Sean]

Hitler was far more, a false Christ than Nero was.

Yet, in all of this, the restrainer continues to restrain and the spirit of antichrist still seeks a man to rise over the earth.

The restrainer has held this spirit back for 2000 years, but will be removed at the right time for the rise of antichrist.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Hitler was the beast?

What was the falling away which occurred in 1935?

[Evang.Benincasa]

I posted this some time back...


In 2 Thessalonians 2, we read about a man of sin and son of perdition. A falling away occurs and then this person is revealed. He opposes and exalts himself above all that is of God, and exalts himself in the temple. He proposes that he is God, himself.

For the sake of information and strong consideration let me show what history has stated, as well as witnesses from believers through the centuries as to who the son of perdition may refer to, although we may not agree with everything the following believers wrote or believed in other issues of truth.

Victorinus spoke of the prophecy of 2 Thessalonians and proposed it involved Rome and the wicked one being Nero.

“And after many plagues completed in the world, in the end he says that a beast ascended from the abyss…that is, of the Romans. Moreover that he was in the kingdom of the Romans, and that he was among the Caesars. The Apostle Paul also bears witness, for he says to the Thessalonians: Let him who now restraineth restrain, until he be taken out of the way; and then shall appear the Wicked One, even he whose coming is after the working of Satan, with signs an lying wonders.’ And that they might know that he should come who then was the prince, he adds: ‘He already endeavours after the secret of mischief’ – that is, the mischief which he is about to do he strives to do secretly; but he is not raised up by his own power, nor by that of his father, but by command of God.”

Victorinus, Commentary on the Apocalypse, ad 11:7; Ante-Nicene Fathers, p. 354

Augustine (A.D. 354-430) is even more explicit:

“Some think that these words refer to the Roman empire, and that the apostle Paul did not wish to write more explicitly, lest he should incur a charge of calumny against the Roman empire, in wishing ill to it when men hoped that it was to be everlasting. So in the words: ‘For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work’ he referred to Nero, whose deeds already seemed to be as those of Antichrist.”

Augustine, City of God, XX, xix; cf., Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V, xxv-xxviii; Lactanius, Divine Inst. VII, xxv

J. Stuart Russell wrote these words in the Parousia of Christ,

“At that time Nero was not yet ‘manifested;’ his true character was not discovered; he had not yet succeeded to the Empire. Claudius, his step-father, lived, and stood in the way of the son of Agrippina. But that hindrance was soon removed. In less than a year, probably, after this epistle was received by the Thessalonians, Claudius was ‘taken out of the way,’ a victim to the deadly practice of the infamous Agrippina; her son also, according to Suetonius, being accessory to the deed.”

J. Stuart Russell, The Parousia (1887, London, T. Fisher Unwin; republished 1983, 1999 by Baker Books, Grand Rapids, MI), pp. 182, 183

It is interesting that some Greek scholars have noted that "he who letteth" is the Greek phrase, "ha katechon." And in Latin, this is translated to "qui claudit." Some believe this is a somewhat subtle way of pointing the finger at Claudius Caesar who ruled before Nero, and that when Claudius was removed from office as Caesar, Nero would be revealed. A similar belief is held about the number of the Beast, 666, being the gematriacal equivalent to Neron Keser, or Nero Caesar. It is a historical fact that Claudius held back persecution of the church. He commanded a ruling entitled "religio licita" which disallowed Christian persecution and even banished some Jews from Rome because of their riots against "Chrestus", referring to Christ and Christians. (Suetonius, Lives of the Caesars, Claudius, XXV, 4. Cf. Acts 18:2). This means Jews could not persecute the church so long as Claudius remained in power. His wife, Agrippina, poisoned him and her son, Nero, came to power, showing that the one who restrained was removed so the wicked one could be revealed. Nero's wife Poppaea was a Jewish proselyte and brought the Jews back into favour in Rome. The mystery of iniquity, which could be seen as antichristian power of persecution, was then allowed back as Nero became emperor.

Lactantius (A.D. 260-330) wrote:

And while Nero reigned, the Apostle Peter came to Rome, and, through the power of God committed unto him, wrought certain miracles, and, by turning many to the rue religion, built up a faithful and stedfast temple unto the Lord. When Nero heard of those things, and observed that not only in Rome, but in every other place, a great multitude revolted daily from the worship of idols, and , condemning their old ways, went over to the new religion, he, an execrable and pernicious tyrant, sprung forward to raze the heavenly temple and destroy the true faith. He it was who first persecuted the servants of God; he crucified Peter, and slew Paul; nor did he escape with impunity; for God looked on the affliction of His people; and therefore the tyrant, bereaved of authority, and precipitated from the height of empire, suddenly disappeared, and even the a burial-place of that noxious wild beast was nowhere to be seen.

Lactantius, Of the Manner in which the Persecutors Died, Chpt. II; Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. VII, p. 302; cf. Divine Institutes, VII, xvii

Chrysostom (A.D. 347 to 407) wrote:
"For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work." He speaks here of Nero... But he did not also wish to point him out plainly: and this not from cowardice, but instructing us not to bring upon ourselves unnecessary enmities, when there is nothing to call for it.

St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on II Thess., Nicene-Post Nicene Fathers, Vol. XXIII

What about the charge of lying wonders? History shows that Nero was hailed in Rome as "Nero the Hercules. Nero the Apollo. Thou August, August! Sacred voice! Eternal one." (Commentary on Apocalypse , Chapter 8, If one calls himself a God, then it stands to reason he claims to perform wonders and supernatural miracles.



:bump

[Sean]

Hitler was the beast?

What was the falling away which occurred in 1935?

My point....many antichrist's but not THE antichrist.:nod

[Originalist]

II Thessalonians 2:7
"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (Greek-restraineth) will let until he be taken out of the way"

Who is restraining?

What is he restraining?

Where will he be taken to when he is taken out of the way?

:heeheehee

He who is being restrained from returning is Christ. The restrainer is the fact that the Anti-Christ has not been revealed. When the Anti-Christ is taken out of the way, Christ can return.

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

II Thessalonians 2:7
"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (Greek-restraineth)
will let until he be taken out of the way"

(1) Who is restraining?
(2) What is he restraining?
(3) Where will he be taken to when he is taken out of the way


(1) Who restrains is "...the Word of His Power..."

(2) The Holy Spirit (the firmament that divides) is first dividing “…the waters
from the waters” (those who are His, and those not His) (Gn. 1:6); and then
it’s called to divide “… the waters which were UNDER the firmament from the
waters which were ABOVE the firmament…” (Gn. 1:7). It is restraining the
earthly waters (natural peoples) from reaching (overcoming) the heavenly
waters (spiritual peoples).

(3) You said it: "...only he who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the
way." All POWER is in God, by God, and in the hand of God. It is only the
Lord God that allows or hinders. He will not be taken up, but will step out of
the way to allow man to CHOOSE to do evil!

Brother Villa

[Michael The Disciple]

Originilist

He who is being restrained from returning is Christ. The restrainer is the fact that the Anti-Christ has not been revealed.

Exactly.

I have repented of my former belief that the restrainer is Michael the Archangel.

[Michael The Disciple]

2 Thess 2:5

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Paul reminds them he had taught them these things before.

Verse 6

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

On the basis of what he just told them he says now they know what is with holding the revelation of Jesus Christ. Its key to understand verse 6 is referring to the revelation/coming of Jesus.....not the man of sin.

The whole issue up to that point was about the revelation of Jesus Christ. Remember chapter 1:7?

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Paul has now reminded them how he taught them what had to happen before the revelation/coming of Jesus would occur. It was that there must come a falling away first and the man of sin first be revealed.

THAT was and is what is witholding the second coming. Those two things. After they happen the revelation of Jesus Christ will be imminent.

So the reason people dont understand what is restraining or holding back the revelation of Jesus coming is because they erroneously believe verse 6 to be referring to the man of sin rather than Pauls intent, that it is the revelation of JESUS that is being restrained because those two things must first occur.

[Michael The Disciple]

2 Thess 2:7

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

This verse puzzles many as it once did me. Yet what if this is a translation problem? What if its not talking about anything being taken away?

My New King James Interlinear renders it like this on page 718.

For mystery already is at work only until from the midst he comes.

This would indicate the mystery of iniquity is at work until FROM THE MIDST (of the work of iniquity) he comes, speaking of the man of sin.

So rather than something being taken away something or someone is coming from the midst. So when he comes from the midst speaks of the coming from the midst of iniquity of the man of sin.

8-9

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

So when the man of sin comes from the midst of iniquity it is his revelation to the world. Paul says Jesus will destroy him with the brightness of HIS COMING.

[TGBTG]

The restrainer is Michael the archangel. If you do a search say like:

"Is Michael The Archangel The Restrainer" it should produce plenty of studies. I saw this about 15 years ago since then I see that many others have come to understand. They may have differing strands of how they see the events around it but agree he is the one who "withholds"

Exactly.

I have repented of my former belief that the restrainer is Michael the Archangel.

Took you 6 years to repent from false doctrine??? Man, what other doctrine will you repent from in the future?? I fear for your soul

/s

Very:heeheehee considering your stance on having "perfect doctrine"

[Michael The Disciple]

Took you 6 years to repent from false doctrine??? Man, what other doctrine will you repent from in the future?? I fear for your soul

/s

Very:heeheehee considering your stance on having "perfect doctrine"

Peace and love.:highfive

[Evang.Benincasa]

Took you 6 years to repent from false doctrine??? Man, what other doctrine will you repent from in the future?? I fear for your soul

/s

Very:heeheehee considering your stance on having "perfect doctrine"

You're a Branhamite?

[Evang.Benincasa]

My point....many antichrist's but not THE antichrist.:nod

The antichrists weren't the Beast. There is only one beast, and their are many Antichrists, which had to be part of the congregations, and left. Sort.. of.. like... YOU!

:laffatu

Oh, next time you make a point, cover it with your hat.

[Sean]

LAB

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and
of a sound mind."

power: which is the gospel that saves;

love: by which we must IMPART the gospel that saves;

sound mind: exercising self-control: which is to control our tongue!

"If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also
to bridle the whole body."

Brother Villa

[Esaias]

So the reason people dont understand what is restraining or holding back the revelation of Jesus coming is because they erroneously believe verse 6 to be referring to the man of sin rather than Pauls intent, that it is the revelation of JESUS that is being restrained because those two things must first occur.

The revelation of Jesus is what was being restrained?

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
(2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJV)

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
(2 Thessalonians 2:4-6 KJV)

The context is not "the revelation of Jesus being restrained". the context is the revealing of the man of sin. Something is restraining or hindering the revealing of the man of sin. This something was hindering things so that the man of sin could be revealed "in his time". There was a time appointed for the man of sin to be revealed, and that which was hindering was hindering in order that the man of sin not be revealed BEFORE HIS TIME.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
(2 Thessalonians 2:7 KJV)

The mystery of lawlessness was already working in Paul's day. This would have led to the imminent revealing of the man of sin, BUT something was hindering that so that the man of sin wasn't revealed too soon. The man of sin was to be revealed later on.

This hindrance would continue to hinder, until it was removed. "Taken out of the way" as the Bible states.

Until he be taken out of the way (heōs ek mesou genētai). Usual construction with heōs for the future (aorist middle subjunctive, genētai). Note absence of an as often in N.T. and the Koiné‚. Paul uses heōs only here and 1Co_4:5. When the obstacle is removed then the mystery of lawlessness will be revealed in plain outline. Robertson's Word Pictures

Will let, until he be taken out of the way - This will be an effectual check on these corruptions, preventing their full development, until it is removed, and then the man of sin will appear. The supposition which will best suit this language is, that there was then some civil restraint, preventing the development of existing corruptions, but that there would be a removal, or withdrawing of that restraint; and that then the tendency of the existing corruptions would be seen. It is evident, as Oldshausen remarks, that this resisting or restraining power must be something out of the church, and distinguished from the anti-Christian tendency itself; yon der Kirche und vom Antichristenthum. It is necessary, therefore, to understand this of the restraints of civil power. - Barnes' Notes

[Evang.Benincasa]

The revelation of Jesus is what was being restrained?

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
(2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJV)

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
(2 Thessalonians 2:4-6 KJV)

The context is not "the revelation of Jesus being restrained". the context is the revealing of the man of sin. Something is restraining or hindering the revealing of the man of sin. This something was hindering things so that the man of sin could be revealed "in his time". There was a time appointed for the man of sin to be revealed, and that which was hindering was hindering in order that the man of sin not be revealed BEFORE HIS TIME.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
(2 Thessalonians 2:7 KJV)

The mystery of lawlessness was already working in Paul's day. This would have led to the imminent revealing of the man of sin, BUT something was hindering that so that the man of sin wasn't revealed too soon. The man of sin was to be revealed later on.

This hindrance would continue to hinder, until it was removed. "Taken out of the way" as the Bible states.

Until he be taken out of the way (heōs ek mesou genētai). Usual construction with heōs for the future (aorist middle subjunctive, genētai). Note absence of an as often in N.T. and the Koiné‚. Paul uses heōs only here and 1Co_4:5. When the obstacle is removed then the mystery of lawlessness will be revealed in plain outline. Robertson's Word Pictures

Will let, until he be taken out of the way - This will be an effectual check on these corruptions, preventing their full development, until it is removed, and then the man of sin will appear. The supposition which will best suit this language is, that there was then some civil restraint, preventing the development of existing corruptions, but that there would be a removal, or withdrawing of that restraint; and that then the tendency of the existing corruptions would be seen. It is evident, as Oldshausen remarks, that this resisting or restraining power must be something out of the church, and distinguished from the anti-Christian tendency itself; yon der Kirche und vom Antichristenthum. It is necessary, therefore, to understand this of the restraints of civil power. - Barnes' Notes

:thumbsup

[Michael The Disciple]

The revelation of Jesus is what was being restrained?

Read chapter one and it becomes clear.

2 Thess 1:7

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Jesus will be REVEALED from Heaven! But not until the falling away and the man of sin occurs.

And NOW you know what witholds that HE might be REVEALED in his time.

Get it? NOW YOU KNOW.....

[Sean]

The man of sin gets revealed at one time.

The son of man/God(Jesus) is revealed at another time.

The word ' reveal" is used in multiple ways in the Bible.

[Esaias]

Read chapter one and it becomes clear.

2 Thess 1:7

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Jesus will be REVEALED from Heaven! But not until the falling away and the man of sin occurs.

And NOW you know what witholds that HE might be REVEALED in his time.

Get it? NOW YOU KNOW.....



There are two things that were to be revealed - Jesus Christ, and the man of sin. Which is being spoken of in verse 6 of chapter 2? The immediate context requires it to be the man of sin.

Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
(2 Thessalonians 2:5-8 KJV)

The hindrance is hindering until he (the restrainer) is taken out of the way, and THEN the lawless one or man of sin will be revealed.

This shows that verse 6 is speaking of the man of sin being revealed by the removal of the restraining power.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Read chapter one and it becomes clear.

2 Thess 1:7

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Jesus will be REVEALED from Heaven! But not until the falling away and the man of sin occurs.

And NOW you know what witholds that HE might be REVEALED in his time.

Get it? NOW YOU KNOW.....

When people understand who Jesus is, then people will get a revelation of the man of sin? Is that what you are saying?

[Michael The Disciple]

2 Thess 2:7

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

This verse puzzles many as it once did me. Yet what if this is a translation problem? What if its not talking about anything being taken away?

My New King James Interlinear renders it like this on page 718.
Quote:

For mystery already is at work only until from the midst he comes.

This would indicate the mystery of iniquity is at work until FROM THE MIDST (of the work of iniquity) he comes, speaking of the man of sin.

So rather than something being taken away something or someone is coming from the midst. So when he comes from the midst speaks of the coming from the midst of iniquity of the man of sin.

8-9

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

So when the man of sin comes from the midst of iniquity it is his revelation to the world. Paul says Jesus will destroy him with the brightness of HIS COMING.

[Evang.Benincasa]

2 Thess 2:7

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

This verse puzzles many as it once did me. Yet what if this is a translation problem? What if its not talking about anything being taken away?

My New King James Interlinear renders it like this on page 718.
Quote:

For mystery already is at work only until from the midst he comes.

This would indicate the mystery of iniquity is at work until FROM THE MIDST (of the work of iniquity) he comes, speaking of the man of sin.

So rather than something being taken away something or someone is coming from the midst. So when he comes from the midst speaks of the coming from the midst of iniquity of the man of sin.

8-9

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

So when the man of sin comes from the midst of iniquity it is his revelation to the world. Paul says Jesus will destroy him with the brightness of HIS COMING.

Brother Michael, where did you get that translation? What interlinear of the KJV?

the man of sin comes from the middle of iniquity? This will be the man of sin's revelation to the world?

Please, I don't want to get you wrong. Please clarify, if I am understanding you.

[Michael The Disciple]

It is The New King James Greek English Interlinear Pg 718.

I will write the part Im talking about.

"For mystery already is at work of lawlessness only the {one} holding back {will continue} now until from the midst he comes.

[Evang.Benincasa]

It is The New King James Greek English Interlinear Pg 718.

I will write the part Im talking about.

"For mystery already is at work of lawlessness only the {one} holding back {will continue} now until from the midst he comes.

Brother Michael, what do you think the word 'comes" means in the above verse? Look at it again in your interliner.

[Sean]

Brother Michael, what do you think the word 'comes" means in the above verse? Look at it again in your interliner.

Strongs?

Look at it another way?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Strongs?

Look at it another way?

Says the men whose old dictionary has 22 definitions for the word World.

:laffatu

[Sean]

You mean you need a dictionary to figure out what "world" means?

[Evang.Benincasa]

You mean you need a dictionary to figure out what "world" means?

You mean you need a dictionary to figure out what "world" means?

I use a KJV and an old dictionary(only).

No commentary or fake Greek definitions for this guy.

I have no problem with revisions in the KJV from the 1611 version.

They are not adding, subtracting or redefining meanings and verses as the modern versions do.

Sean, I explained why I used my example.

But, do yourself a favor deal with your hypocrisy.

[Originalist]

Sean, I explained why I used my example.

But, do yourself a favor deal with your hypocrisy.


While you were absent for awhile, a consensus was reached among many of us to ignore certain ones. Don't even acknowledge they've addressed your comments.

[Evang.Benincasa]

While you were absent for awhile, a consensus was reached among many of us to ignore certain ones. Don't even acknowledge they've addressed your comments.

Thank you my brother.

I greatly appreciate your words. :)

[Sean]

While you were absent for awhile, a consensus was reached among many of us to ignore certain ones. Don't even acknowledge they've addressed your comments.

Because you can't be shown holes in your belief's.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Because you can't be shown holes in your belief's.

https://media.giphy.com/media/GeB4LgmQCQFUc/giphy.gif

[Sean]

LOL

[Esaias]

2 Thess 2:7

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

This verse puzzles many as it once did me. Yet what if this is a translation problem? What if its not talking about anything being taken away?

My New King James Interlinear renders it like this on page 718.
Quote:

For mystery already is at work only until from the midst he comes.

This would indicate the mystery of iniquity is at work until FROM THE MIDST (of the work of iniquity) he comes, speaking of the man of sin.

So rather than something being taken away something or someone is coming from the midst. So when he comes from the midst speaks of the coming from the midst of iniquity of the man of sin.

8-9

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

So when the man of sin comes from the midst of iniquity it is his revelation to the world. Paul says Jesus will destroy him with the brightness of HIS COMING.

Berean Literal Bible
For the mystery of lawlessness is working already; there is only the one at present restraining it, until he might be gone out of the midst.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The mystery of evil has even now begun to work within, only if that which now controls will be taken from the midst;

only he who now letteth will let—The italicized words are not in the Greek. Therefore, translate rather, "only (that is, the continuance of the MYSTERY of iniquity-working will be only) until he who now withholdeth (the same Greek as in 2Th 2:6) be taken out of the way." "Only (waiting, Heb 10:13) until he," etc. Then it will work no longer in mystery, but in open manifestation. - JFB

The restrainer is what is taken out of the way.

[Aquila]

II Thessalonians 2:7
"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (Greek-restraineth) will let until he be taken out of the way"

Who is restraining?

What is he restraining?

Where will he be taken to when he is taken out of the way?

Could the restrainer be speaking about Christ's restraining power through the Holy Spirit, restraining the devil until the end of the church age?

II Thessalonians 2:7
"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth (Greek-restraineth) will let until he be taken out of the way"

From a Preterist perspective, could the restrainer be connected to Christ's having bound Satan? In Amillennial Preterism the angel in the beginning of Revelation 20 is interpreted as being a symbol of Christ who is the "messenger (angel) of the covenant" (Malachi 3:1). As part of Christ's ministry he not only preaches the Gospel but He also binds the strong man, and restrains Satan for the symbolic 1,000 years (or church age).

Revelation 20:1-3
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

At the end of the symbolic 1,000 years (or church age) we read:

Revelation 20:7-11
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Many who embrace Amillennialism believe that at the end of the church age (or Millennium) Satan is loosed, and unites the world in a final form of Antichrist. But just as these enemies of God surround the saints, and the beloved city, fire comes down from God out of Heaven and devours them. Could there be a parallel in II Thessalonians?

II Thessalonians 2:3-8
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Thoughts?