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Charnock
09-27-2011, 05:33 PM
Who are the mosr influential men or women in the world of Oneness Pentecostalism today?

Timmy
09-27-2011, 05:40 PM
Who are the mosr influential men or women in the world of Oneness Pentecostalism today?

In their own minds, or in reality? :heeheehee

Amanah
09-27-2011, 05:57 PM
TD Jakes comes to mind, wouldn't he be the most famous/influencial Oneness Pentecostal?

Seems to me that there is a huge movement to go the way of TD Jakes.

I wonder if there are more TD Jakesque Oneness Pentecostals then there are UPCers.

I guess what I would also like to know would be if there is some sort of ministerial alliance of TDJ OPs.

The next thing I would want to know is what will the next gen raised under a TDJesque OP ministry be?

CC1
09-27-2011, 06:17 PM
This thread poses a good question. 20 years ago it would have been easy for me to have made a list;

Nathianal Urshan
James Kilgore
Anthony Mangun
Kenneth Haney
David Barnard
Murrell Ewing
C.L. Dee's
T.L. Craft

and a few more I am sure I am missing. Having been only casually associated with UPC culture since then I don't know who are considered the most influential now other than the obvious;

David Barnard
Anthony Mangun
Paul Mooney

Michael The Disciple
09-27-2011, 06:24 PM
TD Jakes seems ashamed of Oneness teaching if what I have heard over time is true. If he promotes it good for him but Im not aware of instances where he does.

I certainly hope he is not the best Oneness has to offer.

Amanah
09-27-2011, 06:25 PM
I don't know that he is the best, but I'm pretty sure he is the most well known/influencial OP out there.

Amanah
09-27-2011, 06:29 PM
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/j11.html


This popular preacher, also known as "Bishop Jakes," comes from a United Pentecostal background. He pastors The Potter's House (Dallas, Texas) one of America's fastest-growing megachurches. He is also a leader and elected bishop of the "Higher Ground Always Abounding Assemblies," a network of Oneness Pentecostal churches - though not identified as such at the T.D. Jakes Ministries web site:

In 1979, Pastor Jakes opened the doors of his first church located in a storefront facility in Montgomery, WV with only 10 members. The church eventually became known as The Temple of Faith and was affiliated with Ohio-based Higher Ground Always Abounding Assemblies, a Pentecostal organization that governs many churches of similar persuasion.
T.D. Jakes Ministries, (Accessed Mar. 3, 2000)

In "Christianity Today" recently, T.D. Jakes said "This small fellowship of churches is not a denomination, and differs in many ways from traditional Apostolic churches." No indication is given on how and where they differ.

Answers in Action - in a statement about Promise Keepers, says

(...) Promise Keepers speakers are not always theologically sound,biblically centered, mature Christian speakers. (For example, they have repeatedly promoted T. D. Jakes, a United Pentecostal pastor/evangelist who denies -- along with his denomination -- the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity and promotes baptismal regeneration.
Source: Pros and Cons of the Promise Keepers Movement

And Charisma Magazine, in an article supportive of Oneness Pentecostalism, notes:

(...) Because of recent upheaval in the UPC, many pastors have left to establish prominent independent Oneness churches. And many popular preachers in the black charismatic community--most notably T.D. Jakes of Dallas--have Oneness roots.

Source: "The Other Pentecostals," (PRO) Charisma Magazine

One of the "frequently-asked questions" posted on Jakes' web site is: "What has been your reception in the evangelical community?" Jakes Answers:

''I've had only one or two experiences where people had a problem accepting my diversity -- either racially or doctrinally. For some reason, God has just given me the grace to be able to sit on many different platforms.''
Questions for T.D. Jakes (Accessed Mar. 3, 2000)

Unfortunately, Jakes' doctrinal diversity appears to include classic Oneness Pentecostal Heresies, though - in an apparent effort to appeal to a wider audience - the usual Oneness theology is toned down somewhat at TD Jakes' official web site. See, for example, its statement on the Trinity:

God--There is one God, Creator of all things, infinitely perfect, and eternally existing in three Manifestations: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ--Jesus Christ is true God and true man, having been conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He died on the cross, the complete and final sacrifice for our sins according to the Scriptures. Further, He arose bodily from the dead, ascended into heaven, where, at the right hand of the Majesty on High, He is now our High Priest and Advocate.

The Holy Spirit--The ministry of the Holy Spirit is to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ and during this age, to convict men of sin, regenerate the believing sinner, indwell, guide, instruct, and empower the believer for godly living and service.
Ministry Beliefs (Last checked Dec. 14, 1999, and archived here). The current statement, last accessed June 28, 2007, still refers to 'manifestations,' but now with a lower case.

The belief that God exists in three "manifestations" is called Sabellianism or modalism:

Sabellianism or Modalism. Sabellius (A.D. 200), the originator of this viewpoint, spoke of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but he understood all three as no more than three manifestations of one God. This teaching came to be known as modalism because it views one God who variously manifests Himself in three modes of existence: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
The Trinity (Triunity) of God

John Morehead writes:

Orthodox Christians and Oneness adherents are agreed that the Scriptures teach that there is only one God. The classic text in this regard is Deut. 6:4. Numerous other biblical passages teach that there is only one God. However, the Bible nowhere teaches that the "oneness" of God is to be understood as only one Person. Here orthodox Christianity and Oneness Pentecostalism diverge. Christianity affirms one God in three co-existing persons as Father, Son and Holy Spirit; Oneness theology affirms one God in one person, Jesus Christ, in three modes or manifestations.
Oneness Pentecostalism: A Subtle Heresy

Interestingly, the "Ministry Beliefs" statement at the TD Jakes website differs from the "Doctrinal Statement for T.D. Jakes/Potter's House Ministries" at the same web site. This one provides us with another look at the doctrine of the Trinity:

THREE DIMENSIONS OF ONE GOD (1 John 5:7; Mathew 28:19; 1 Tim 3:16)

We believe in one God who is eternal in His existence, Triune in His manifestation, being both Father, Son and Holy Ghost AND that He is Sovereign and Absolute in His authority.

We believe in the Father who is God Himself, Creator of the universe. {Gen 1:1; John 1:1}

We believe that Jesus is the Son of God. (Col 2:9) He suffered, died, was buried, and rose from the dead for our total salvation (Luke 3:21-22; Philippians 2:5-11). We believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Him (John 3:36; John 3:31-32; John 14:6).

We believe in the Holy Spirit who is God indwelling, empowering and regenerating the believer. This Holy Spirit is called the Comforter. The Spirit of Truth (John 14:17,
14:26)
Doctrinal Statement for T.D. Jakes/Potter's House Ministries (Last accessed, Dec. 14, 1999)

At first glance, this may sound a little better. However, saying that God has "three dimensions" and adding the word "Triune" does not indicate adherence to orthodox doctrine regarding the Trinity. In fact, the statement appears to be worded to appeal to both Oneness believers and Trinitarians, even though it is impossible to hold both the Oneness and the Trinitarian position - or to compromise on the doctrine of the Trinity.

Responding to a posting of Jakes' Doctrinal Statement on the AR-talk mailing list, Dr. Gordon Lewis wrote, "The revised statement on God revives Sabellian modalism. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not merely three manifestations of one God in history, three different hats he wears."

Bottom line: the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity is that the Father Son and Holy Spirit are three distinct, co-existent, co-equal Persons within the one God. If that is what TD Jakes Ministries beliefs, it should make an unequivocal statement to that effect. However, repeated emailed requests for clarification on this issue have gone unanswered.

But in February, 2000, Christianity Today reported:

The quarterly journal of the southern California–based Christian Research Institute (http://www.equip.org/) quotes from public remarks by Jakes to argue that, whatever baptismal formulas he uses in different venues, his primary theological language for the Godhead remains Oneness Pentecostal.
(...)

One of the Journal's most detailed quotations comes from a Los Angeles radio show, ''Living By the Word.'' KKLA-FM broadcast host Jim Coleman's interview with Jakes on August 23 and 30, 1998.

Coleman asks Jakes how important it is for Christians to believe in the Trinity. Jakes responds:

I think it's very, very significant that we first of all study the Trinity apart from salvation, and first of all that we embrace Christ and come to him to know who he is. Having come to know who he is, then we begin to deal with the Trinity, which I believe is a very complex issue. The Trinity, the term 'Trinity,' is not a biblical term, to begin with.

It's a theological description for something that is so beyond human comprehension that I'm not sure that we can totally hold God to a numerical system. The Lord said, ''Behold, O Israel, the Lord thy God is one, and beside him there is no other.'' When God got ready to make a man that looked like him, he didn't make three. He made one man. However, that one man had three parts. He was body, soul, and spirit. We have one God, but he is Father in creation, Son in redemption, and Holy Spirit in regeneration.

(...)
''Given his and his ministry's insistence on modalist language in describing the Trinity, the assertions of his colleague [associate minister Lawrence Robinson] that he is a modalist, and his affiliation with a Oneness group, we have every reason to doubt that by 'Trinity' his ministry means three eternally distinct Persons,'' Miller told CHRISTIANITY TODAY.
Apologetics Journal Criticizes T.D. Jakes, Christianity Today, February 7, 2000, Vol. 44, No. 2, Page 58

Christianity Today also posted a response by T.D. Jakes showing that he is, indeed, a modalist:

While I mix with Christians from a broad range of theological perspectives, I speak only for my personal faith and convictions. I am not a theologian, and I avoid quoting even theologians who agree with me. To defend my beliefs, I go directly to the Bible.

My views on the Godhead are from 1 John 5:7-8, "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." (NKJV)

I believe in one God who is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I believe these three have distinct and separate functions — so separate that each has individual attributes, yet are one. I do not believe in three Gods.
T.D. Jakes, "My Views on the Godhead", Christianity Today Online edition

See also, "T.D. Jakes Responds To The (Christian Research) Journal."

Bottom-line: In its initial article, the Christian Research Journal writes:

Even well-discipled and discerning Christians find it challenging to differentiate between the truth and error found in Jakes’s teachings — let alone the watching secular world. The New York Times published an article on 1 January 1999 regarding how America has always had a national evangelist. ''Ever since the colonial era, America has had a pre-eminent preacher who played an unofficial role as national evangelist, preaching a simple message of repentance and salvation and drawing vast crowds in the process. For the last 50 years that role has been filled by the Rev. Billy Graham. But at the turn of the century with Mr. Graham now 80, the question arises, Who if anyone can take his place.''63 It is sobering that of the five possible successors to Billy Graham listed, one of them is T. D. Jakes.

There is no denying that T. D. Jakes has many fine leadership qualities, and the social outreaches of his Potter’s House church appear quite commendable. But, while sound doctrine is not the only criterion for leadership among Christians (1 Tim. 3:1–13), it is certainly a necessary criterion (Tit. 1:9–11). Do we really want a non-Trinitarian to be the spiritual leader of our country? If the answer to this question is anything but an unequivocal no, the future looks dark indeed for the American church.
The Man, His Ministry, And His Movement: Concerns About The Teachings Of T.D. Jakes by by Jerry L. Buckner, writing in the Christian Research Journal

Michael The Disciple
09-27-2011, 06:29 PM
There is only one man among todays Oneness Pentecostal groups that I consider a leader in the end time move of the Spirit.

Dave Huston in Carlisle Pa. To my knowledge he teaches the foundations more accurately than any others. Of course there may be (and hopefully there are) others but I just have not found them yet.

This site introduces his ministry. Dont expect a lot of stuff about him. He is a humble man.

http://gloriouschurch.ning.com/

This one is probably better:

http://www.gloriouschurch.com/

Hoovie
09-27-2011, 06:41 PM
There is only one man among todays Oneness Pentecostal groups that I consider a leader in the end time move of the Spirit.

Dave Huston in Carlisle Pa. To my knowledge he teaches the foundations more accurately than any others. Of course they may be (and hopefully there are) others but I just have not found them yet.

This site introduces his ministry. Dont expect a lot of stuff about him. He is a humble man.

http://gloriouschurch.ning.com/

I like Dave H. and had the honor of meeting him again last year (I think I met him many years ago)

Digging4Truth
09-27-2011, 06:43 PM
It would be nice to have a generation full of many great leaders with no clear cut "leader of the pack".

Jason B
09-27-2011, 06:48 PM
TD Jakes seems ashamed of Oneness teaching if what I have heard over time is true. If he promotes it good for him but Im not aware of instances where he does.

I certainly hope he is not the best Oneness has to offer.

TD Jakes also has made the statement that homosexuals and muslims could possibly be saved as Jesus said "I have OTHER sheep which are not of this fold." A prominent member of his church (Micheal Irvin) was on the cover of the gay magazine OUT in July and on an article on the inside spoke out in favor of the gay marriage legislation in New York state. Jakes has preached for Joel Osteen (thus endorsing Osteen's watered down unbiblical gospel, even leaning on the pulpit saying "someone take my picture I'm at Lakewood") and was given a brand new BENTLEY by mega church "pastor" Paula White even as she was going througha divorce from Randy White. Not to mention his prosperity gospel and attitude towards consumer driven church even saying on national TV "Jesus is the PRODUCT."

Charnock
09-27-2011, 06:51 PM
Interesting stuff.

I'm not sure that the OP movement's greatest influences are homegrown.

Michael The Disciple
09-27-2011, 07:10 PM
Its stuns me that we never hear of Trinitarian leaders embracing the Oneness teaching.

LifeGuide
09-27-2011, 07:16 PM
Easy. Joel Urshan, Wayne Francis, Rashidi Collins, Jeff Goodman, Tim Rutledge, Shawn Tyson, Todd Gaddy, Andrew Arrowood, Nathaniel Haney, Paul Pamer, David Myers, and the list could go on and on and...

Amanah
09-27-2011, 07:18 PM
David Myers, he pastors the UPC church I attend sometimes, I like him and that church a lot.

Michael The Disciple
09-27-2011, 07:19 PM
Interesting stuff.

I'm not sure that the OP movement's greatest influences are homegrown.

Speaking as an ex Trin I can say that the first few years of my study of things Apostolic specifically the Oneness Of God and New Birth were very rewarding. It impressed me very deeply. There was a Preacher named Eddie Jones from Linden La. who's teaching tracts really opened my eyes to more truth.

riverslivnwtr
09-27-2011, 07:45 PM
TD Jakes also has made the statement that homosexuals and muslims could possibly be saved as Jesus said "I have OTHER sheep which are not of this fold." A prominent member of his church (Micheal Irvin) was on the cover of the gay magazine OUT in July and on an article on the inside spoke out in favor of the gay marriage legislation in New York state. Jakes has preached for Joel Osteen (thus endorsing Osteen's watered down unbiblical gospel, even leaning on the pulpit saying "someone take my picture I'm at Lakewood") and was given a brand new BENTLEY by mega church "pastor" Paula White even as she was going througha divorce from Randy White. Not to mention his prosperity gospel and attitude towards consumer driven church even saying on national TV "Jesus is the PRODUCT."



O ,my God , you made my day with that last part....

Jesus was sold only once and for only 30 pieces of silver :foottap

riverslivnwtr
09-27-2011, 07:47 PM
Its stuns me that we never hear of Trinitarian leaders embracing the Oneness teaching.


it ain't no fun putting on your brakes going up hill..:laffatu

Falla39
09-27-2011, 08:31 PM
Speaking as an ex Trin I can say that the first few years of my study of things Apostolic specifically the Oneness Of God and New Birth were very rewarding. It impressed me very deeply. There was a Preacher named Eddie Jones from Linden La. who's teaching tracts really opened my eyes to more truth.

My late father ordered many of Bro. Eddie Jones tracts :
Know The Truth Literature, Minden. LA

Evidently KTTL is no longer out of Minden.

http://www.knowthetruthliterature.com/

RandyWayne
09-27-2011, 09:07 PM
Would it be presumptive of me to say that I am one of those leading this generation?

MawMaw
09-27-2011, 09:20 PM
Would it be presumptive of me to say that I am one of those leading this generation?

And just where are you leading them? :heeheehee

RandyWayne
09-27-2011, 10:22 PM
And just where are you leading them? :heeheehee

To the land of Mordor.

Jermyn Davidson
09-27-2011, 10:42 PM
TD Jakes also has made the statement that homosexuals and muslims could possibly be saved as Jesus said "I have OTHER sheep which are not of this fold." A prominent member of his church (Micheal Irvin) was on the cover of the gay magazine OUT in July and on an article on the inside spoke out in favor of the gay marriage legislation in New York state. Jakes has preached for Joel Osteen (thus endorsing Osteen's watered down unbiblical gospel, even leaning on the pulpit saying "someone take my picture I'm at Lakewood") and was given a brand new BENTLEY by mega church "pastor" Paula White even as she was going througha divorce from Randy White. Not to mention his prosperity gospel and attitude towards consumer driven church even saying on national TV "Jesus is the PRODUCT."



Bishop Jakes has NEVER said anything close to this.

If someone wants to twist what he said into this interpretation, then that is an example of them twisting his intent when he spoke.

Jason B
09-27-2011, 11:17 PM
Bishop Jakes has NEVER said anything close to this.

If someone wants to twist what he said into this interpretation, then that is an example of them twisting his intent when he spoke.

Jermyn, your keep up with religious issues like you do with political ones-very poorly. This isn't even "new" news. Furthermore the quotes I mentioned above were pretty much verbatim, in fact to Jakes compares the sin of PRACTICING (i.e ACTIVELY PARTICIPATING) in homoesuxality with "being rude to somebody". Listen for yourself, the whole clip is only 2:22, the homosexuality question starts at 1:24:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22xL2E10JJE

This doesn't even touch on his comments that strongly indicate he believes Ruth and Naomi had a "lesbian relationship". There is no twisting necessary, here is the quote: "Ruth turns to Naomi and says “I shall not leave thee.” She makes her statement to this woman…that sounds somewhat, somewhere in between poetry, intimacy, and borders on lesbianism. People don’t even know how to explain what Ruth said to Naomi. It makes them uncomfortable. They’re afraid to talk about it. They don’t want to teach on it. Same thing with David and Jonathan…where there were same-sex relationships getting too close, people don’t even know what to say.” ~T D Jakes
Audio available here:http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/08/30/t-d-jakes-claims-ruth-naomi-and-david-jonathan-were-gay/

Birds of a feather flock together:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwL1DThtxYg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U42ni0BRoUs


"I think that Jesus is the product" @ the 23 second mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omLJT73j6MQ

Jason B
09-27-2011, 11:31 PM
JD, take notes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gLmpEobed8&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dexJZH9bt0&feature=related

JD, pick up this clip at 1:19, send an email to TD Jakes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib1GyZHPGaM

Jason B
09-27-2011, 11:39 PM
REALLY how difficult is it just to say this?

Larry King asks John MacArthur the same question he asked Joel Osteen:
(clip is less than 1 and a half minutes)
And he give the answer while sitting beside a catholic priest, a Jew, and a Muslim while being asked the question by an agnostic to boot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgJXWeoB454

Suffer me in my folly one more time. Here is the video continued, pick up @ 1:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivYy-h4vfTA

Jason B
09-27-2011, 11:42 PM
Sorry, please excuse my Bro. Scott Hutchinson moment. :)

houston
09-28-2011, 12:40 AM
Long didn't do it, Michael Jackson didn't do it, Jakes didn't say it.

houston
09-28-2011, 12:42 AM
It's not Obama's fault.

Amanah
09-28-2011, 03:51 AM
Just for clarification, I mentioned TD Jakes because that is the way many who have left UPC roots are heading.

My concern is that we get so far from our roots, that the message is lost.

There has to be a way to leave off the doctrines of men, that make the church look archaic and irrelevant, and yet still hold the precious truth of the Oneness of God and baptism in the name.

Michael The Disciple
09-28-2011, 06:36 AM
My late father ordered many of Bro. Eddie Jones tracts :
Know The Truth Literature, Minden. LA

Evidently KTTL is no longer out of Minden.

http://www.knowthetruthliterature.com/

I got a lot out of his tracts. They changed my life. I have passed out hundreds (if not thousands) of them myself in times past.

bishoph
09-28-2011, 08:04 AM
Just one point of clarification........in the article posted earlier on this thread (post 7) concerning TD Jakes it says he is from a UPC background. TDJ was never a part of the UPCI and has never been a traditional OP in doctrine. Billy Cole was never his pastor (a common story told) though his children did attend Bro. Cole's christian school.

Jermyn Davidson
09-28-2011, 08:41 AM
[QUOTE=Jason Badejo;1101392]Jermyn, your keep up with religious issues like you do with political ones-very poorly. This isn't even "new" news. Furthermore the quotes I mentioned above were pretty much verbatim, in fact to Jakes compares the sin of PRACTICING (i.e ACTIVELY PARTICIPATING) in homoesuxality with "being rude to somebody". Listen for yourself, the whole clip is only 2:22, the homosexuality question starts at 1:24:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22xL2E10JJE

This doesn't even touch on his comments that strongly indicate he believes Ruth and Naomi had a "lesbian relationship". There is no twisting necessary, here is the quote: "Ruth turns to Naomi and says “I shall not leave thee.” She makes her statement to this woman…that sounds somewhat, somewhere in between poetry, intimacy, and borders on lesbianism. People don’t even know how to explain what Ruth said to Naomi. It makes them uncomfortable. They’re afraid to talk about it. They don’t want to teach on it. Same thing with David and Jonathan…where there were same-sex relationships getting too close, people don’t even know what to say.” ~T D Jakes
Audio available here:http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/08/30/t-d-jakes-claims-ruth-naomi-and-david-jonathan-were-gay/




Jason,

From your first video.

His point is that there are aren't any degrees of sin-- no big sins, no little sins-- just sin.

The reporter tried to paint Jakes as a gay-basher by his question and he answered wisely.

Not once did he condone homosexuality, not once did he say it wasn't sin.

Actually, he placed all sins in the same context that the Bible presents sin-- ALL SIN is SIN.

NOWHERE IN THE VIDEO DID HE UTTER THE WORDS MUSLIMS NAD GAYS MIGHT BE SAVED-- if you read that into his statement, then it is because you wanted to read that into his statement.

Jermyn Davidson
09-28-2011, 08:59 AM
Audio available here:http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/08/30/t-d-jakes-claims-ruth-naomi-and-david-jonathan-were-gay/

Birds of a feather flock together:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U42ni0BRoUs



What was your point in posting his sermon at Lakewood?

In your 10 minute video where Bishop Jakes is preaching at Lakewood, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING mentioned that could even imply that Bishop Jakes suggested anything that would come close to saying homosexuality is not a sin.

He said nothing that is contrary to the Bible at all.

Jermyn Davidson
09-28-2011, 09:05 AM
Your link to an audio file is linked to someone's personal blog where the audio and video have been removed and is not verifiable.


Given his sermons, his doctrinal stances as publicly displayed and that Carlton Pearson and Bishop Jakes are not associates, for you to imply that Bishop Jakes presents homosexuality as anything other than sin is nothing short of slander against this man of God.

Jermyn Davidson
09-28-2011, 09:17 AM
"I think that Jesus is the product" @ the 23 second mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omLJT73j6MQ




Specifically, what is your criticism of Bishop Jakes in this video?

As for your quote, you gave us his answer, but what was the question? What is the CONTEXT of his quote?

Have you even bothered to watch and listen to the videos you have alluded to?

I don't thnk you have.

Jermyn Davidson
09-28-2011, 09:30 AM
JD, take notes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gLmpEobed8&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dexJZH9bt0&feature=related

JD, pick up this clip at 1:19, send an email to TD Jakes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib1GyZHPGaM

Bishop Jakes was not involved in ANY of these conversations.

Given the CONTEXT and backgorund conversations that preceded MacArthur's answers, Bishop Jakes would side with him.

By the way, where were you when I was defending John MacArthur on this very forum?

I respect a GREAT deal and listen to his sermons-- of course, by most Apostolic standards, he's going to hell in a handbasket-- the same lake of fire that the very polite atheist and the vile homosexual will be going.

deafdriscoll
09-28-2011, 10:29 AM
Until i came to this site i had never debated the God head.I asked what ones was when I first got here.However, I forgot what was said.
What of the 3 persons in the God head? The trinity?
what are you ones people saying about the 3 persons-The father, the son, and the holy spirit.
Do you accept them as one god or 3 different persons?

scotty
09-28-2011, 10:41 AM
Until i came to this site i had never debated the God head.I asked what ones was when I first got here.However, I forgot what was said.
What of the 3 persons in the God head? The trinity?
what are you ones people saying about the 3 persons-The father, the son, and the holy spirit.
Do you accept them as one god or 3 different persons?

Seriously ??

Here, this should keep you busy for a while.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/search.php?searchid=2779178

riverslivnwtr
09-28-2011, 05:05 PM
I say the guy that prayed for the president in his inarguration ...

I know a lot of people would resent the idea but ...that's the guy..

I can't think of his name at the moment cause I keep my mind unclutered with names.. I got too much on my plate. :heeheehee

the saddleback Guy Rick Warren ,,,, His name keeps coming up in the news..

My self I like the Osteen guy..His daddy waz my pastor for the first 11 years of HG living. :happydance

unitedpraise10
09-28-2011, 09:28 PM
Anthony Mangun

RevDWW
09-28-2011, 10:00 PM
Anthony Mangun
He is a leader!

analogorgan
09-29-2011, 08:45 AM
Anthony Mangun

Amanah
09-29-2011, 09:02 AM
Anthony Mangun

if you are talking UPC, then yes

if you are talking Oneness Pentecostals in general, then the most well known, popular, hence influential would have to be TD Jakes.

TGBTG
09-29-2011, 09:28 AM
if you are talking UPC, then yes

if you are talking Oneness Pentecostals in general, then the most well known, popular, hence influential would have to be TD Jakes.

I think the reason why most people would not agree with you is because TD Jakes is never heard preaching about Acts 2:38 in his church.

He doesn't preach on the Godhead
And neither does he talk about the baptism of the HolyGhost (at least I've not heard him personally)

Believe me, if TD Jakes really preached/stressed Oneness doctrine, he would have been kicked off TRINITY Broadcasting Network a long time ago.

Amanah
09-29-2011, 09:28 AM
I think the reason why most people would not agree with you is because TD Jakes is never heard preaching about Acts 2:38 in his church.

He doesn't preach on the Godhead
And neither does he talk about the baptism of the HolyGhost (at least I've not heard him personally)

Believe me, if TD Jakes really preached/stressed Oneness doctrine, he would have been kicked off TRINITY Broadcasting Network a long time ago.

exactly, that is my point.

ThePastorsCoach
09-29-2011, 09:43 AM
A lot of untruths being put forth on this forum. I know Bishop Jakes and what you are saying about him is totally untrue. I have heard him in person on a number of occasions preach on the Revelation of Jesus Christ on TBN and at John Hagees Cornerstone Church and in his own pulpit. I have seen him baptize in the name of Jesus Christ in his own baptistry. It is a bald face lie that he embraces homosexuality and teaches that is is OK or not a sin. You are simply WRONG when you say he does. As one poster said - He has never been UPC, never been close to it but has had high regard for many men in the UPC. If you believe what the news media and The Anti-Bible Answer Man Hank Hanigraff says - you are probably smoking the same junk he is.
Bishop Jakes is a man of God that teaches and preaches there is only One God and His revealed name in the earth is the Lord Jesus Christ. He baptizes in the name of Jesus Christ and teaches the Baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues. I know the man and I have heard him on many occasions teach these things.
The Bible is right and SOMEBODY is WRONG and it is NOT TD JAKES!

mfblume
09-29-2011, 09:47 AM
A lot of untruths being put forth on this forum. I know Bishop Jakes and what you are saying about him is totally untrue. I have heard him in person on a number of occasions preach on the Revelation of Jesus Christ on TBN and at John Hagees Cornerstone Church and in his own pulpit. I have seen him baptize in the name of Jesus Christ in his own baptistry. It is a bald face lie that he embraces homosexuality and teaches that is is OK or not a sin. You are simply WRONG when you say he does. As one poster said - He has never been UPC, never been close to it but has had high regard for many men in the UPC. If you believe what the news media and The Anti-Bible Answer Man Hank Hanigraff says - you are probably smoking the same junk he is.
Bishop Jakes is a man of God that teaches and preaches there is only One God and His revealed name in the earth is the Lord Jesus Christ. He baptizes in the name of Jesus Christ and teaches the Baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues. I know the man and I have heard him on many occasions teach these things.
The Bible is right and SOMEBODY is WRONG and it is NOT TD JAKES!
No matter what some preachers believe, if others look at him as outside their "group" there will always be someone in that group who will misrepresent them. Had it happen to me personally, as I am sure you have experienced, too.

ThePastorsCoach
09-29-2011, 10:13 AM
No matter what some preachers believe, if others look at him as outside their "group" there will always be someone in that group who will misrepresent them. Had it happen to me personally, as I am sure you have experienced, too.

I totally agree!

ThePastorsCoach
09-29-2011, 10:27 AM
Easy. Joel Urshan, Wayne Francis, Rashidi Collins, Jeff Goodman, Tim Rutledge, Shawn Tyson, Todd Gaddy, Andrew Arrowood, Nathaniel Haney, Paul Pamer, David Myers, and the list could go on and on and...

Totally unbelievable! Maybe you need to run some of these names through the abuse registry or court records! I guess it is OK to lead in the UPC when you beat your wife, divorce and remarry another little cutie, cuss like a sailor, drink like a fish, commit adultery with numerous women, or your wife leaves you and marries the one she has been sleeping with then gets it annulled then comes back to you!
And you guys want to bash TD Jakes and Joel Osteen? Give me a break!
As one poster said- This makes me want to throw up!

TGBTG
09-29-2011, 10:34 AM
A lot of untruths being put forth on this forum. I know Bishop Jakes and what you are saying about him is totally untrue. I have heard him in person on a number of occasions preach on the Revelation of Jesus Christ on TBN and at John Hagees Cornerstone Church and in his own pulpit. I have seen him baptize in the name of Jesus Christ in his own baptistry. It is a bald face lie that he embraces homosexuality and teaches that is is OK or not a sin. You are simply WRONG when you say he does. As one poster said - He has never been UPC, never been close to it but has had high regard for many men in the UPC. If you believe what the news media and The Anti-Bible Answer Man Hank Hanigraff says - you are probably smoking the same junk he is.
Bishop Jakes is a man of God that teaches and preaches there is only One God and His revealed name in the earth is the Lord Jesus Christ. He baptizes in the name of Jesus Christ and teaches the Baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues. I know the man and I have heard him on many occasions teach these things.
The Bible is right and SOMEBODY is WRONG and it is NOT TD JAKES!

If you look at my earlier post, I said "I have not heard him personally preach on those topics". I make that statement based on what he preaches on TBN

Obviously, TBN does not show every single sermon he's preached. All I'm saying is he reaches his largest audience via TBN, and Oneness pentecostal doctrine is NOT what's he known for on TBN.

In fact, a lot of people do NOT know that TD Jakes does NOT believe in the trinity (I go to a trinity church, so I'm 100% sure of this). Those that know are the hardcore "apologetic ministries" like letusreason.org and the like.

Just sayin'

deafdriscoll
09-29-2011, 10:34 AM
Seriously ??

Here, this should keep you busy for a while.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/search.php?searchid=2779178

scotty i could not open this to look. So, iask again does ones believe in the 3 person god head. Do they reconize all 3 parts?

deafdriscoll
09-29-2011, 10:37 AM
A old saying do not remove the speck out of your brothers eye until you remove the plank out of your own.
As for me, I do not listen to the big time preachers, because i have a home church and pastor is has authority over me.
jesus is my source and everyone said, "amen."

scotty
09-29-2011, 10:37 AM
scotty i could not open this to look. So, iask again does ones believe in the 3 person god head. Do they reconize all 3 parts?

Thats a link to this forum. But if you wish, simply click on the "Search" tab at the top of the page. Go to "Advanced Search", type in "Godhead", then click on "Show thread titles"...... you will be given a very long list of discussions from this forum where many have hashed out the Godhead on here.

TGBTG
09-29-2011, 10:39 AM
scotty i could not open this to look. So, iask again does ones believe in the 3 person god head. Do they reconize all 3 parts?

I go to a trinity church. I can tell you from experience that when you ask them to describe it, the explanations range from modalism to three beings.

Some would say it's like ice, liquid, and steam. (water just changing forms)
Some would say it's like the sun. It radiates heat energy and light energy(type of Son and Holyspirit emanating from the Father)

Some would say they are 3 beings. They say when they get to heaven, they believe they will see three men seating on three thrones.

And some would say they have no idea. They believe in God and they worship Jesus Christ.

Amanah
09-29-2011, 10:44 AM
I honestly don't know any of the other names in the above list, but I'm pretty sure David Myers is an honest man of God, if it's the David Myers who pastors the Palm Bay church that I attend.

I do have questions about the Oneness Pentecostal movement though. I think many are breaking away from the UPC which I think is good, especially from what I've learned about the 1992 resolution. But, I'm worried that most/many of the people who are breaking away are changing the basic message though. Not really preaching One God, Jesus Name baptism.

I'm not running in the same circles as some of you, who are obviously much more familiar with what is going on then I, so I have to defer to what you say if you say my perceptions are incorrect.

scotty
09-29-2011, 10:52 AM
I honestly don't know any of the other names in the above list, but I'm pretty sure David Myers is an honest man of God, if it's the David Myers who pastors the Palm Bay church that I attend.

I do have questions about the Oneness Pentecostal movement though. I think many are breaking away from the UPC which I think is good, especially from what I've learned about the 1992 resolution. But, I'm worried that most/many of the people who are breaking away are changing the basic message though. Not really preaching One God, Jesus Name baptism.

I'm not running in the same circles as some of you, who are obviously much more familiar with what is going on then I, so I have to defer to what you say if you say my perceptions are incorrect.

You have no idea the can of worms your opening with this post, lol.

Those that have left the UPC have gone both directions. Some have went left to one step salvation while others have shifted right holding on to the message and then adding all kinds of rules and attitudes.

As for those here who you assume are "in the loop", take it with a grain of salt. The way they will interpret what they know will vary as much as the biblical interpretations here.

Michael The Disciple
09-29-2011, 02:00 PM
Totally unbelievable! Maybe you need to run some of these names through the abuse registry or court records! I guess it is OK to lead in the UPC when you beat your wife, divorce and remarry another little cutie, cuss like a sailor, drink like a fish, commit adultery with numerous women, or your wife leaves you and marries the one she has been sleeping with then gets it annulled then comes back to you!
And you guys want to bash TD Jakes and Joel Osteen? Give me a break!
As one poster said- This makes me want to throw up!

None of those names are familiar to me. Are you suggesting that Joel Osteen is a Christian leader? I never said TD does not believe in Oneness. I said he is ashamed of it.

I base that on an interview where he was asked if he believed in it. He wiggled around just enough to where if you did not know the doctrine you could take him as either Trin or Oneness.

Even if he does believe in Oneness I am not going the same direction he is therefore I dont count him as a leader.

LifeGuide
09-29-2011, 03:54 PM
Totally unbelievable! Maybe you need to run some of these names through the abuse registry or court records! I guess it is OK to lead in the UPC when you beat your wife, divorce and remarry another little cutie, cuss like a sailor, drink like a fish, commit adultery with numerous women, or your wife leaves you and marries the one she has been sleeping with then gets it annulled then comes back to you!
And you guys want to bash TD Jakes and Joel Osteen? Give me a break!
As one poster said- This makes me want to throw up!
?!?! AB, I've never "bashed" TD Jakes or Joel Olsteen and never plan to. I also can't speak to the allegations you've presented. I just listed some names of young men in our movement who are making an impact for the kingdom. I have been around long enough to know that the Oneness movement is not exempt from scandals and improprieties. That being said, there are still good men who are leading. Whether from a large, independent paradigm (TD Jakes), or from a small pulpit in middle America. I apologize if I listed any names that may have offended you. I can't vouch for all of these men's personal lives.