View Full Version : UPC to Change Stance on Military Combatants?<<
Charnock
09-29-2011, 04:57 PM
The most divisive issue in the United Pentecostal Church in my lifetime has been television. The debate was not about whether we should own televisions and use them for recreational viewing in our homes, but whether we should advertise our churches on television. That issue sent us in to a tailspin. The stench wafted across two General Conferences. I received e-mail about the issue. I sent e-mail about the issue. There were blogs. There were Internet forums. There were threats that some would leave the UPCI if the conference did not vote their way. Some published booklets in defense of their view. An entire issue of the Forward, the magazine for UPCI ministers in North America, was devoted to the debate. A survey of all ministers was conducted. Ultimately a group of ministers left the UPCI citing the outcome of that conference as their reason.
We have before us now the resolutions that will be presented at the upcoming General Conference of the United Pentecostal Church International. These resolutions include one, Resolution 6, that relaxes our historical position against Christians taking life in military service, leaving the decision up to individuals. I am writing this article two weeks before the General Conference, and I have not heard one comment about Resolution 6. I have not received any e-mail about Resolution 6. Most people I have talked to are unaware the resolution exists.
Can we delete the following text from our Manual, as Resolution 6 proposes to do, without a vigorous debate?
http://rodneyshaw.wordpress.com/2011/09/29/holiness-in-the-twenty-first-century-straining-out-gnats-and-swallowing-camels/
Very interesting.
Charnock
09-29-2011, 05:01 PM
Basically, it boils down to this.
It's okay to kill someone. Just don't have a TV in your home.
Yep, we've officially gone off the deep end.
You are not upc so what does it matter?
I am not upci so I could really care less what they do.
They have so many wacky contradictions in their manual....
houston
09-29-2011, 05:42 PM
I was going up for license soon. This is a deal breaker for me. I wasted hours reading the required revised history and fiction novels.
canam
09-29-2011, 06:22 PM
I was going up for license soon. This is a deal breaker for me. I wasted hours reading the required revised history and fiction novels.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiit !
Cindy
09-29-2011, 06:37 PM
No, I think it basically boils down to, you move a line once, its easier to move it again.
Yes
MissBrattified
09-29-2011, 07:35 PM
I honestly don't know where I stand on this issue. It's one I haven't totally sorted out. It's easy to say: Don't kill other human beings in defense of a country, but I would quickly and easily do so in defense of my family. On a larger scale, there's not much difference between the two.
That said: RS made some excellent points about the lack of debate and insurrection over this Resolution. Very interesting.
RandyWayne
09-29-2011, 08:04 PM
I honestly don't know where I stand on this issue. It's one I haven't totally sorted out. It's easy to say: Don't kill other human beings in defense of a country, but I would quickly and easily do so in defense of my family. On a larger scale, there's not much difference between the two.
That said: RS made some excellent points about the lack of debate and insurrection over this Resolution. Very interesting.
I am not that indecisive on the matter. People, Christian or otherwise, have the right to kill to protect their family or their country. On the other forum, on this subject, someone took the position that killing is killing yet she turned around and said "but I respect the military!". No, you cannot hold to the position that ANY killing is wrong and still respect the military (or cops or FBI or Homeland security, or border patrol, etc). It is like saying to them "Thank you for sinning, so I don't have to! I really appreciate it!".
houston
09-29-2011, 08:19 PM
Clinging to their guns and their religion.
AND their Republican Jesus.
TGBTG
09-29-2011, 08:22 PM
Just to throw into the mix here:
So are we saying that christian soldiers should kill other soldiers from other countries even though the enemy soldier might be a christian too?
If we have Christians in our military, there's no doubt that other countries also have Christians in their military. So what then happens? Christians end up killing other of God's children for the kingdoms of this world? hmmm
Honestly, I don't think this issue is as clear cut as some it. I think each man must be persuaded in his own mind...
Orthodoxy
09-29-2011, 09:06 PM
In the case of capital punishment (which seems to be mandated in Genesis 9:6), some human being has to actually flip the switch to the electric chair.
Is the flip switcher guy now guilty of murder? Or is he lawfully "bearing the sword" of the state as in Romans 13? The same logic can be applied to the military, police, FBI, etc.
However, this is still a sticky issue. For example, were the Nazi soldiers innocent when they obeyed orders to slaughter Jews in the Holocaust? This is where the "just war theory" comes into play.
Scott Hutchinson
10-01-2011, 05:51 PM
Here is a interesting read.
http://www.hoshuha.com/articles/pacifism.html
Soldier: "If I say to this man, go, he goes. If I say to this man, kill, he kills."
Jesus: "Whoa! I have not found such faith, even in the UPCI. Lolz."
Sabby
10-01-2011, 09:14 PM
In the case of capital punishment (which seems to be mandated in Genesis 9:6), some human being has to actually flip the switch to the electric chair.
Is the flip switcher guy now guilty of murder? Or is he lawfully "bearing the sword" of the state as in Romans 13? The same logic can be applied to the military, police, FBI, etc.
However, this is still a sticky issue. For example, were the Nazi soldiers innocent when they obeyed orders to slaughter Jews in the Holocaust? This is where the "just war theory" comes into play.
The Second World War may very well have been the last "just war" that America has been involved.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Some of these posts are pretty interesting. Houston, I didn't realize I was a republican until you pointed it out! LOL
We each have our "calling". Actually, some believers make excellent (gasp)soldiers. (I'm thinking the one with the greatest faith Jesus ever saw, or um, Cornelius. They didn't become officers because they were pacifists but because they were warriors.
Apparently, God doesn't have a "one size fits all" approach to the military.
I remember having a similar conversation eons ago in bible school. Some classmates were creating scenarios talking about defending the home, our wives, etc. One fellow piped up and said that if he had "enough faith" nothing would happen. (I think Sudan has shown us the folly of this kind of position.) I didn't realize that a gun clinger is one that believes in defending his country! This pacifistic attitude is suicidal, whether it's towards an invading country or a intruding rapist.
I guess I'm like Popeye...IyamwutIyam, and if called to defend this country, I would serve. I've also got a hollow point for someone that breaks into my home to harm my family. It's all in degree.
Sabby
10-01-2011, 09:19 PM
Sure, Christ's kingdom is not "of this world", (even the fighter Peter got rebuked for wielding a sword in the garden), but there is a time and place for defense...
RandyWayne
10-01-2011, 09:32 PM
.....
I guess I'm like Popeye...IyamwutIyam, and if called to defend this country, I would serve. I've also got a hollow point for someone that breaks into my home to harm my family. It's all in degree.
Ya, and we have 20 gage shot gun slugs. :)
Of course we're expecting the distinct sound of the shotgun and the Sig 9 mm being cocked to have a pretty strong effect on anyone who makes the foolish decision to breaking into our house while we're there.
Ya, and we have 20 gage shot gun slugs. :)
Of course we're expecting the distinct sound of the shotgun and the Sig 9 mm being cocked to have a pretty strong effect on anyone who makes the foolish decision to breaking into our house while we're there.
I'll hide in the dark with a knife, and when they least expect it, slit their throat. If that doesn't work, then I'll go for their throat with my teeth and break their windpipe. After they've finally breathed their last breath, I'll slice off their head. Then dismember them and burn them in the backyard under the full moon. Then, go to church and praise God, Amen.
RandyWayne
10-02-2011, 11:55 AM
I'll hide in the dark with a knife, and when they least expect it, slit their throat. If that doesn't work, then I'll go for their throat with my teeth and break their windpipe. After they've finally breathed their last breath, I'll slice off their head. Then dismember them and burn them in the backyard under the full moon. Then, go to church and praise God, Amen.
Naw, just a single gun shot. And then after 6 hours of paperwork and debriefing with the cops, THEN I'll go to church and thank God that He allowed my aim to be true.
Or, maybe to follow in the spirit of your example, I would just hide in the closest and break a beer bottle over their head when they passed, then drag them down to my secret dungeon in the basement and have weeks of fun torturing them using every medical device imaginable and THEN go to church and praise God!
FlamingZword
10-02-2011, 01:55 PM
I'll hide in the dark with a knife, and when they least expect it, slit their throat. If that doesn't work, then I'll go for their throat with my teeth and break their windpipe. After they've finally breathed their last breath, I'll slice off their head. Then dismember them and burn them in the backyard under the full moon. Then, go to church and praise God, Amen.
hey dear brother, no fair, you can not steal my techniques in dealing with evil doers.
Now I will have to be creative and invent some new plan.
by the way do you have a woodchipper that I can borrow??
:highfive
UnTraditional
10-02-2011, 01:56 PM
Wait till they come and and yell, "I have an Axe and 2 38s!"
RandyWayne
10-02-2011, 02:05 PM
Wait till they come and and yell, "I have an Axe and 2 38s!"
That is the same basic idea as making as much noise as possible moving back the slides and knocking the clips in. I also told my wife I would then say (just loud enough for anyone in the house to hear) "Ok, formation 32. Just like we did in Guatemala. Ready, 3, 2, 1, Go!"
deafdriscoll
10-02-2011, 07:08 PM
I am not UPC.
God told the israelites to kill all those people that were intheir land. The people disobeyed and let the Philistines live. Hmmmmmm.......
The war in Afganatain was to stop Osama from killing more Americans. If we kill in self defense and do not shed innocent blood we are in the clear.
Oh, for those of you who have guns in your homes, I do not have a gun in my home. However, I have 4 man eating cats in my house trailer. I am innocent of murder my cats ate the thief. I am blameless. :happydance
deafdriscoll the youngest leads the assualt.
casper the oldest male cat ordered it.
rejik the oldest female struck with a vengence.
Leo the the other female ripped the thiefs arms off.
true story Do we need a poll to decide if this is true? :heeheehee
johnny44
10-02-2011, 08:01 PM
I am not UPC.
God told the israelites to kill all those people that were intheir land. The people disobeyed and let the Philistines live. Hmmmmmm.......
The war in Afganatain was to stop Osama from killing more Americans. If we kill in self defense and do not shed innocent blood we are in the clear.
Oh, for those of you who have guns in your homes, I do not have a gun in my home. However, I have 4 man eating cats in my house trailer. I am innocent of murder my cats ate the thief. I am blameless. :happydance
deafdriscoll the youngest leads the assualt.
casper the oldest male cat ordered it.
rejik the oldest female struck with a vengence.
Leo the the other female ripped the thiefs arms off.
true story Do we need a poll to decide if this is true? :heeheeheeNo,just let me know where I can get some cats like that.
deafdriscoll
10-03-2011, 11:29 AM
You can find cats like that in a old deserted barn. if they bite your hand that means it is better than a dog to teach to protect your home. :heeheehee
NorCal
10-03-2011, 12:39 PM
Thou shalt not kill (murder is the correct interpretation).
What is murder?
Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being with "malice aforethought", and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter). As the loss of a human being inflicts enormous grief upon the individuals close to the victim, as well as the fact that the commission of a murder is highly detrimental to the good order within society, most societies both present and in antiquity have considered it a most serious crime worthy of the harshest of punishment. In most countries, a person convicted of murder is typically given a long prison sentence, possibly a life sentence where permitted, and in some countries, the death penalty may be imposed for such an act — though this practice is becoming less common.[1] In most countries, there is no statute of limitations for murder (no time limit for prosecuting someone for murder). A person who commits murder is called a murderer .[2]
That is what we as individuals need to focus on. If called to serve, serve in a capacity that you feel that you can with a clean conscience. For example, in the Med Corp, Engineering, or other position that does not demand direct conflict.
RandyWayne
10-04-2011, 10:33 PM
Since my wife is the firearms aficianado in our home, this is probably the last scene that any perp breaking into our home would see before they saw lights out for the very last time:
http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/picture.php?albumid=225&pictureid=1148
MamaHen
10-06-2011, 09:14 PM
It is like saying to them "Thank you for sinning, so I don't have to! I really appreciate it!".
Amen.
pelathais
10-07-2011, 02:26 PM
I honestly don't know where I stand on this issue. It's one I haven't totally sorted out. It's easy to say: Don't kill other human beings in defense of a country, but I would quickly and easily do so in defense of my family. On a larger scale, there's not much difference between the two.
That said: RS made some excellent points about the lack of debate and insurrection over this Resolution. Very interesting.
You're right. And I agree about "family." It is a tough issue to really hammer down and that is why I've always thought that any statements on this topic ought to be rather open ended.
Personally, I'd like nothing more than to take the high road and adopt an entirely pacifistic stance. However, I would still need someone to "take up the sword" on my behalf (Romans 13:3-4 & etc.). So, what kind of relationship do I have with the one who does "bear the sword?" Should I pay his salary? Provide his medical care when he gets injured in battle? Should I contribute toward the cost of his sword?
If we are to follow Romans 13 here, then we do all of the above. We do all of the above anyway just because we're American taxpayers. The hypotheticals can start to add up quickly, too. What would you do and how far would you go to stop a Columbine type of attack? What if you were a teacher in the school and you had the chance to jump one of the shooters? Would you use his gun to stop the other shooter?
We live in a dangerous world. Unless we are we willing to get into a quiet and orderly line leading to the gas chambers, we will have to participate in the fight at some level.
pelathais
10-07-2011, 02:27 PM
Since my wife is the firearms aficianado in our home, this is probably the last scene that any perp breaking into our home would see before they saw lights out for the very last time:
http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/picture.php?albumid=225&pictureid=1148
You're Brad Pitt?
Esther
10-07-2011, 02:47 PM
I would hope folks would understand the difference in murder and killing to protect family and country. There is a huge difference AND responsiblity.
Noah Marshall
10-07-2011, 03:34 PM
TV has killed MORE spiritually in the home than guns ever have physically.
That resolution is going to be hotly debated I suppose. Much like TV.
Im not sure on this one. I had no doubt on TV. Vote it DOWN! Unfortunately the idiotic resolution passed
pelathais
10-07-2011, 04:34 PM
TV has killed MORE spiritually in the home than guns ever have physically.
That resolution is going to be hotly debated I suppose. Much like TV.
Im not sure on this one. I had no doubt on TV. Vote it DOWN! Unfortunately the idiotic resolution passed
Nothing ever gets thought through or receives the deliberation it deserves. All it takes is for one of the "Chosen Class" to endorse an idea and no one else will seriously question it and the sheeple will go along.
That's how all of the previous "TV Resolutions" were passed outlawing television ministry. Ironically, that's how the latest "TV Resolution" was passed as well. It's not the issue at stake that anyone has in mind. It's how they will be perceived by their peers. So, the safest path is to take your cue from the "Platform." It's what we tell our saints. It's exactly what the preachers do as well.
pelathais
10-07-2011, 04:38 PM
I would hope folks would understand the difference in murder and killing to protect family and country. There is a huge difference AND responsiblity.
:thumbsup
The sixth commandment says, "You shall not murder" (Deuteronomy 5:17 ESV).
deafdriscoll
10-07-2011, 07:53 PM
Since my wife is the firearms aficianado in our home, this is probably the last scene that any perp breaking into our home would see before they saw lights out for the very last time:
http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/picture.php?albumid=225&pictureid=1148
I have never worked with a picture on this site.I hopethis works.
Oh, Randy does your wife who is in the picture have a gun carrying sister?
Will you introduce me?
Jack Shephard
10-08-2011, 11:38 AM
I honestly don't know where I stand on this issue. It's one I haven't totally sorted out. It's easy to say: Don't kill other human beings in defense of a country, but I would quickly and easily do so in defense of my family. On a larger scale, there's not much difference between the two.
That said: RS made some excellent points about the lack of debate and insurrection over this Resolution. Very interesting.
Funny you say this... I wouldn't just take someone's life just on a whim. I would if someone came in my home to harm me or my family. I definitely would if I were in war and someone was shooting at me or wanting to harm me. In the military way of life and war you are trained in such a way that you don't think you just react to your training. So I wouldn't think that killing would be wrong. It's interesting that the UPC ministers will pray for the troops and even the ones out of their assembly, but taking a hardline stance against defending themselves in battle and taking lives is weird to me.
RandyWayne
10-08-2011, 08:15 PM
I have never worked with a picture on this site.I hopethis works.
Oh, Randy does your wife who is in the picture have a gun carrying sister?
Will you introduce me?
That isn't my wife in the pic but it IS how she would look to anyone trying to invade our home -and would be the last thing they saw.
Sabby
10-08-2011, 08:35 PM
I am not that indecisive on the matter. People, Christian or otherwise, have the right to kill to protect their family or their country. On the other forum, on this subject, someone took the position that killing is killing yet she turned around and said "but I respect the military!". No, you cannot hold to the position that ANY killing is wrong and still respect the military (or cops or FBI or Homeland security, or border patrol, etc). It is like saying to them "Thank you for sinning, so I don't have to! I really appreciate it!".
Well said, RW
johnny44
10-09-2011, 07:21 AM
To bad Stephan wasn't packing a 44 magnum ala dirty Harry.He could have turned out the lites of some of those rock throwing ...........................................
Apostolics Pentecostals now hit-men for corporations. Unbelievable!! If something like this passes it will be interesting to see how large the exodus will be. For me I will not help finance a UPC military Jesus.
Our battles are spiritual.
RandyWayne
10-12-2011, 10:36 PM
Apostolics Pentecostals now hit-men for corporations. Unbelievable!! If something like this passes it will be interesting to see how large the exodus will be. For me I will not help finance a UPC military Jesus.
Our battles are spiritual.
Something like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1A6ZGy2kC0&feature=related
aegsm76
10-13-2011, 02:44 AM
Apostolics Pentecostals now hit-men for corporations. Unbelievable!! If something like this passes it will be interesting to see how large the exodus will be. For me I will not help finance a UPC military Jesus.
Our battles are spiritual.
Tell that to Cornelius...
deacon blues
10-13-2011, 06:45 AM
Just to throw into the mix here:
So are we saying that christian soldiers should kill other soldiers from other countries even though the enemy soldier might be a christian too?
If we have Christians in our military, there's no doubt that other countries also have Christians in their military. So what then happens? Christians end up killing other of God's children for the kingdoms of this world? hmmm
Honestly, I don't think this issue is as clear cut as some it. I think each man must be persuaded in his own mind...
There were Christian men, no doubt, that were German soldiers in the Wehrmacht during WWII. There were Christian men in the various militaries of the Allied Forces. Fighting Germany and destroying the Nazi regime was the absolute right thing to do. Jesus did not preach pacifism. There is a just cause for war.
deacon blues
10-13-2011, 07:16 AM
Consider this from Luke 22:
35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
Jesus told them to buy a sword! Why? To slice tomatoes?
deacon blues
10-13-2011, 07:48 AM
Apostolics Pentecostals now hit-men for corporations. Unbelievable!! If something like this passes it will be interesting to see how large the exodus will be. For me I will not help finance a UPC military Jesus.
Our battles are spiritual.
There won't be an "exodus". We have gone generations without this "standard" being preached or enforced. We have generations of Pentecostals who have honorably served our country and even have killed in defense of our nation. Why we even have preachers sons who have served in combat. What would you have done if you had a chance to take out Hitler in midst of the Holocaust? Would you have stopped the terrorists that committed the acts of violence on 9/11?
Carpenter
10-13-2011, 10:38 AM
There won't be an "exodus". We have gone generations without this "standard" being preached or enforced. We have generations of Pentecostals who have honorably served our country and even have killed in defense of our nation. Why we even have preachers sons who have served in combat. What would you have done if you had a chance to take out Hitler in midst of the Holocaust? Would you have stopped the terrorists that committed the acts of violence on 9/11?
I agree with this. What I find interesting is how they justified the statement and belief with scripture. It is proof that they are guilty of establishing a standard and then finding scripture to support it instead of setting a foundation of scripture then building their standard.
I asked a pastor's wife yesterday about the standard, guideline, whatever it is, and she didn't even know it was in the manual, so I think it is pretty much a non issue.
RandyWayne
10-13-2011, 11:09 AM
Perhaps the main reason (and I am not joking here) it is ever brought up is because serving in the military would require missing church.
There won't be an "exodus". We have gone generations without this "standard" being preached or enforced. We have generations of Pentecostals who have honorably served our country and even have killed in defense of our nation. Why we even have preachers sons who have served in combat. What would you have done if you had a chance to take out Hitler in midst of the Holocaust? Would you have stopped the terrorists that committed the acts of violence on 9/11?
It was God who instituted Hitler. I would dare not consider taking out Governing Authority.
RandyWayne
10-13-2011, 09:36 PM
It was God who instituted Hitler. I would dare not consider taking out Governing Authority.
So, if God instituted Hitler, that must mean He is micromanaging on such a small scale that HE chose what you had for lunch today -not you.
So, if God instituted Hitler, that must mean He is micromanaging on such a small scale that HE chose what you had for lunch today -not you.
Romans 13
Submit to Government
1.Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
Tell that to Cornelius...
What about him?
deacon blues
10-13-2011, 11:16 PM
It was God who instituted Hitler. I would dare not consider taking out Governing Authority.
Oh, so the Holocaust was God's idea! Wow that explains so much! Thanks for the revelation!
Oh, so the Holocaust was God's idea! Wow that explains so much! Thanks for the revelation!
Romans 13 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Romans+13)
Submit to Government
1.Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.
Sabby
10-15-2011, 12:08 PM
It was God who instituted Hitler. I would dare not consider taking out Governing Authority.
God instituted the "power", brother, not the man.
Sabby
10-15-2011, 12:21 PM
People too easily forget that the power is ordained of God as a minister of justice. Note carefully that it doesn't say God instituted the individual IN POWER. The purpose of authority is to provide ordered, peaceful lives.
This is why an "instituted" authority should be a person that is merciful and just. This provides an even greater reason for Christians to be involved in political processes - providing you believe that Christians should be involved at all.
King George III of England, Hitler, Arafat, etc, proved they were not up to the level of being ministers of a righteous God. King George lost the colonies, Hitler lost the war (and his life) and Amin went into exile, thank God no longer a ruler.
To say that God instituted Hitler is wack
People too easily forget that the power is ordained of God as a minister of justice. Note carefully that it doesn't say God instituted the individual IN POWER. The purpose of authority is to provide ordered, peaceful lives.
This is why an "instituted" authority should be a person that is merciful and just. This provides an even greater reason for Christians to be involved in political processes - providing you believe that Christians should be involved at all.
King George III of England, Hitler, Arafat, etc, proved they were not up to the level of being ministers of a righteous God. King George lost the colonies, Hitler lost the war (and his life) and Amin went into exile, thank God no longer a ruler.
To say that God instituted Hitler is wack
So you are saying those who perceive to be good God appoints? Did God appoint Pharaoh? It gets worse, did he appoint Satan?
Exodus 9: 16 Darby Bible Translation
And for this very cause have I raised thee up, to shew thee my power; and that my name may be declared in all the earth.
Speaking of Pharaoh.
It is God who sets up kings and removes them.
Dan 2:21. And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
Job 34:24
He breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry, and sets others in their place.
Also do we pick and choose who God wants at the ballot box? Our battles are spiritual. God rules the nations. The U.S. has been slaughtering people since its birth. What man is up to the task?
kclee4jc
10-15-2011, 01:00 PM
So what was the vote?
So what was the vote?
I gave up voting. My only instruction concerning governing authority is to pray for them--and yes that includes Mr. Obama.
Oh my!
OP_Carl
10-16-2011, 11:32 AM
Pentecostal soldiers can hum a few lines from their old WAP hymnal as they take sight on the enemy and tighten their trigger fingers:
Jesus, hold my hand . . . . steady.
FlamingZword
10-16-2011, 03:32 PM
As a Oneness believer I felt no conflict whatsoever when I was in the Military.
I had no problem shooting my weapon and learning about war.
I almost went into combat, but the whole thing was called off at the last minute.
When I was waiting to go into actual combat I had no doubts about what I was doing.
I had no problem praying at all.
I took my inspiration from Joshua, Caleb, David, Gideon, Elisha, Cornelious and the early Roman Christian soldiers, which did their duty.
As a Oneness believer I felt no conflict whatsoever when I was in the Military.
I had no problem shooting my weapon and learning about war.
I almost went into combat, but the whole thing was called off at the last minute.
When I was waiting to go into actual combat I had no doubts about what I was doing.
I had no problem praying at all.
I took my inspiration from Joshua, Caleb, David, Gideon, Elisha, Cornelious and the early Roman Christian soldiers, which did their duty.
I respect your post but if I may add this--Joshua, Caleb, David, Gideon, Elisha most likely had a directive from God. As for the Roman soldiers not sure if there is a record of them killing for the name of Rome.
If already in the military that would be a dilemma. I would assume overseers would need to be involved to see about a transfer to a non-combative position. A friend who was in Vietnam worked as a in-the-field medic but refused to carry a weapon.
FlamingZword
10-16-2011, 09:16 PM
I respect your post but if I may add this--Joshua, Caleb, David, Gideon, Elisha most likely had a directive from God. As for the Roman soldiers not sure if there is a record of them killing for the name of Rome.
If already in the military that would be a dilemma. I would assume overseers would need to be involved to see about a transfer to a non-combative position. A friend who was in Vietnam worked as a in-the-field medic but refused to carry a weapon.
Dear Rudy
you forgot to include my web site on the no more tithing list.
make sure you get it properly it is www.one-lord.org
and I definitely do teach about tithing.
Dear Rudy
you forgot to include my web site on the no more tithing list.
make sure you get it properly it is www.one-lord.org
and I definitely do teach about tithing.
Some good stuff on your cite, I intend on reading more. I am curious, however, who ALL exactly in the NT is authorized/suppose to receive tithes according to scripture, out of all the nt ministries of the church body?(ie evangelists,? nursing home ministers ?etc..)
Not to hijack this thread, maybe you could post it on one of the tithing threads.
Dear Rudy
you forgot to include my web site on the no more tithing list.
make sure you get it properly it is www.one-lord.org (http://www.one-lord.org)
and I definitely do teach about tithing.
There is tithing threads on this forum if you wish to comment. Also there is a challenge to preachers/pastors to debate that issue.
FlamingZword
10-18-2011, 10:10 PM
Some good stuff on your cite, I intend on reading more. I am curious, however, who ALL exactly in the NT is authorized/suppose to receive tithes according to scripture, out of all the nt ministries of the church body?(ie evangelists,? nursing home ministers ?etc..)
Not to hijack this thread, maybe you could post it on one of the tithing threads.
it is simple you tithe to your church.
There is no other place that one should tithe to.
Of course you can give special offerings for evangelists, nursing homes and etc, but those are not tithes. those ore offerings
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