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Michael The Disciple
10-06-2011, 08:58 PM
Case In Point:

A Pastors wife falls away. She has an affair with multiple men. She divorces her husband. He is faithful to Christ remarries a few years later.

Is he the husband of one wife?

MamaHen
10-06-2011, 09:03 PM
1 Cor 7:15
Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace.

Praxeas
10-06-2011, 10:18 PM
Case In Point:

A Pastors wife falls away. She has an affair with multiple men. She divorces her husband. He is faithful to Christ remarries a few years later.

Is he the husband of one wife?
Yes...the affair and divorce annuls the previous marriage

Austin
10-07-2011, 05:41 AM
Case In Point:

A Pastors wife falls away. She has an affair with multiple men. She divorces her husband. He is faithful to Christ remarries a few years later.

Is he the husband of one wife?

How was he when God called him? Does God know all things present tense? Paul said whatever state your in when God chose you to remain in that state?
Is the church more perfect than the pastor? and it goes on.

Aquila
10-07-2011, 06:19 AM
Case In Point:

A Pastors wife falls away. She has an affair with multiple men. She divorces her husband. He is faithful to Christ remarries a few years later.

Is he the husband of one wife?

Yes.

Hoovie
10-07-2011, 06:42 AM
Case In Point:

A Pastors wife falls away. She has an affair with multiple men. She divorces her husband. He is faithful to Christ remarries a few years later.

Is he the husband of one wife?


A Pastor falls away, and has trysts with multiple women while pastoring. His wife divorces him. He repents and settles with his favorite woman and marries her.

Is he the husband of one wife?

Aquila
10-07-2011, 06:44 AM
A Pastor falls away, and has trysts with multiple women while pastoring. His wife divorces him. He repents and settles with his favorite woman and marries her.

Is he the husband of one wife?

Yes.

kclee4jc
10-07-2011, 06:58 AM
A Pastor falls away, and has trysts with multiple women while pastoring. His wife divorces him. He repents and settles with his favorite woman and marries her.

Is he the husband of one wife?

NO!

PreacherV
10-07-2011, 08:09 AM
A Pastor falls away, and has trysts with multiple women while pastoring. His wife divorces him. He repents and settles with his favorite woman and marries her.

Is he the husband of one wife?

Yes. The key word here is "repents". All things are new after repentance. We tend to only like that concept when mercy is being applied on OUR behalf, but God is not petty and He readily dispenses forgiveness even to those whom we tend to view cynically.

PreacherV
10-07-2011, 08:16 AM
NO!

Kcleejc,

Bearing in mind that in Hoovie's hypothetical scenario the sinful pastor later repents is it your position that God does not forgive adultery?

Jermyn Davidson
10-07-2011, 08:26 AM
Case In Point:

A Pastors wife falls away. She has an affair with multiple men. She divorces her husband. He is faithful to Christ remarries a few years later.

Is he the husband of one wife?

Yes.

Jermyn Davidson
10-07-2011, 08:27 AM
A Pastor falls away, and has trysts with multiple women while pastoring. His wife divorces him. He repents and settles with his favorite woman and marries her.

Is he the husband of one wife?

Yes.

hawks-cry
10-07-2011, 05:21 PM
A Pastor falls away, and has trysts with multiple women while pastoring. His wife divorces him. He repents and settles with his favorite woman and marries her.

Is he the husband of one wife?
OK,...(just thinking here,..) so to those who answered "yes"....
does that mean that everything is back to being "peachy-keen",..and he gets to carry on with his life and his ministry as before? (food for thought here,...)...what's your take on this?

seekerman
10-07-2011, 05:50 PM
This is one of the many places the bible teaching is explained away.

Mar 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

Point blank. Period. End of story.

NorCal
10-07-2011, 06:01 PM
1) If the wife stays, He has a right to Divorce.
A) He is the Husband of one wife.
2) If he strays, he has not right to Divorce. That is given to the wife.
A) He has sinned and should be restored if repentance and open confession has been made.

The "husband of one wife" is not referring to marriage and divorce, but about the common practice in ancient times of one man taking multiple wives.

What an organization does about requirements for Marriage and Divorce of pastors, is in itself, just a higher standard set upon ministers. (I see where this thread was going.)

All in all, Jesus said that if you divorce, you do not have the spirit of forgiveness; thus you are just as an adulterer yourself. Why, because divorce was given in the Law of Moses out of the hardness of mans heart.

There are a few pastors in the UPC that have been divorced (wives left them) that have never remarried. There are some that have remarried. This discretion was given to the superintendent of that district; not the organization as a whole. Every Man of God should have a "pastor" that they go to in time of need.

berkeley
10-07-2011, 06:58 PM
He repents and settles with his favorite gal? If he repented he'd still be with his wife.

hawks-cry
10-07-2011, 07:13 PM
He repents and settles with his favorite gal? If he repented he'd still be with his wife.
..but things get complicated! The wife (having had the right to divorce)...moves on. She doesn't want him back (trust has been totally broken). Or, perhaps she felt she was the one who had the right to remarry, and did so. So just as in real life,...things become horribly complicated and sticky. What was that saying?...."You can't un-scramble an egg"?

EDIT: Perhaps it could be like the situation of a particular well-known televangelist of some years ago. After affairs became known,..wife leaves and gets divorce. Afterwards (after he serves his prison term for tax evasion)..he re-marries and re-establishes a new ministry. Has a fairly modest, but good following of his "new" TV ministry.

Austin
10-07-2011, 07:16 PM
Unbelieveable some of the stuff on here:icecream

berkeley
10-07-2011, 07:22 PM
..but things get complicated! The wife (having had the right to divorce)...moves on. She doesn't want him back (trust has been totally broken). Or, perhaps she felt she was the one who had the right to remarry, and did so. So just as in real life,...things become horribly complicated and sticky. What was that saying?...."You can't un-scramble an egg"?

EDIT: Perhaps it could be like the situation of a particular well-known televangelist of some years ago. After affairs became known,..wife leaves and gets divorce. Afterwards (after he serves his prison term for tax evasion)..he re-marries and re-establishes a new ministry. Has a fairly modest, but good following of his "new" TV ministry.

None of that was a part of the scenario.

Hoovie
10-07-2011, 08:30 PM
So, the one and only qualification to be in leadership and ministry is repentance?

Husband of one wife? Means only one at a time...

Pastor turns serial killer? No problem - if repented.

seguidordejesus
10-07-2011, 09:00 PM
I know, I gotta get my mail order doctorate and get into that field.

Truthseeker
10-07-2011, 09:20 PM
This is one of the many places the bible teaching is explained away.

Mar 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

Point blank. Period. End of story.

Yep, but what if she runs off? He didn't put her away.

berkeley
10-07-2011, 09:59 PM
So, the one and only qualification to be in leadership and ministry is repentance?

Husband of one wife? Means only one at a time...

Pastor turns serial killer? No problem - if repented.

Apparently you can do ANY and EVERYTHING and remain pastor, apostle, and prophet!

shag
10-08-2011, 08:07 AM
As far as I know, the bible doesnt say that "shepherds" are to be restored to their shepherding, after they break the requirements to have that position, be it by shackin up with prostitutes like Swaggert, or say child molestation of teen girls, murder or whatever....(ohhhh, if a brother be overtaken....-yeah right)


well....as long as they stop (settle down with only one new wife) and if they do it again, as long as they stop the next time....:nah


I guess if folks have That low of expectAtions for their leaders, more power to them...

shag
10-08-2011, 09:16 AM
And if they repent, yet "fall" again(and again and again)ye which are spiritual restore them (back to being a pastor) in a spirit if meekness (70 X 7 if that's what it takes cause that's scripture!) considering thyself could stumble....

:nah


Forgiveness does not always equal restoration of ministry



(Tho maybe I've gotten a little off topic ? :) )

Hoovie
10-08-2011, 09:58 AM
And if they repent, yet "fall" again(and again and again)ye which are spiritual restore them (back to being a pastor) in a spirit if meekness (70 X 7 if that's what it takes cause that's scripture!) considering thyself could stumble....

:nah


Forgiveness does not always equal restoration of ministry

Actually it does mean just that, IF, the one needing forgiveness also has the money and power to grant himself restoration.

For example, if Bishop Eddie Long were on a team of Elders of a smallish church with no money... think he would still be the leader of New Birth Missionary Baptist Church?

Hoovie
10-08-2011, 10:03 AM
I don't think any single person here questions whether one who falls can be restored to Christ.

The context of I Tim 3 is Bishops, Elders and Deacons.

Steve Epley
10-08-2011, 10:37 AM
Our record begins with our new birth. ALL prior sins are washed away or remitted we are new creatures. However since being in the church the qualifications are clear for bishops-elders-deacons only one marriage is allowed unless the companion dies. For man to marry a divorced woman then he disqualifies himself.

Praxeas
10-08-2011, 01:32 PM
This is one of the many places the bible teaching is explained away.

Mar 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

Point blank. Period. End of story.
Mat 19:9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery."

Mat 5:32 But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery. And whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Aquila
10-08-2011, 01:44 PM
This is one of the many places the bible teaching is explained away.

Mar 10:11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

Point blank. Period. End of story.

Jesus also told the healed lepper to show himself to the priest. Given that Christ explained this teaching in response to the Pharisee's question regarding the law, I believe this is pre-cross and isn't binding today. Paul demonstrates that this isn't a hard rule with the Pauline privilege to remarry under abandonment by a non believer.

Aquila
10-08-2011, 01:48 PM
And if remarriage is adultery in any way under grace, it's not unforgivable. I'd say it might disqualify from pulpit ministry though.

Hoovie
10-08-2011, 01:53 PM
Jesus also told the healed lepper to show himself to the priest. Given that Christ explained this teaching in response to the Pharisee's question regarding the law, I believe this is pre-cross and isn't binding today. Paul demonstrates that this isn't a hard rule with the Pauline privilege to remarry under abandonment of a non believer.

You are losing me now... The teachings of Jesus were pre-cross and therefore not applicable? I have never heard such.

Also, Paul says this concerning remarriage:

"10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife."

Aquila
10-08-2011, 02:05 PM
You are losing me now... The teachings of Jesus were pre-cross and therefore not applicable? I have never heard such.

Also, Paul says this concerning remarriage:

"10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife."

True, that's why many believe divorce and remarriage is always a sin. As a general rule to please all interpretations, I believe churches shouldn't perform remarriages unless it's for the widowed. I also believe unless one were widowed they should be disqualified from pulpit ministry.

Aquila
10-08-2011, 02:07 PM
You are losing me now... The teachings of Jesus were pre-cross and therefore not applicable? I have never heard such.

Some things Jesus taught were under the law, according to the law. Christ wouldn't have permitted Pauline privilege per the law.

Those abandoned by an unbeliever may remarry only under the covenant of grace.

berkeley
10-08-2011, 03:33 PM
Some things Jesus taught were under the law, according to the law. Christ wouldn't have permitted Pauline privilege per the law.

Those abandoned by an unbeliever may remarry only under the covenant of grace.

Don't add to the bible because you need an outlet. :foottap They are given license to divorce, not a second marriage license.

Aquila
10-08-2011, 05:50 PM
Don't add to the bible because you need an outlet. :foottap They are given license to divorce, not a second marriage license.

Then a second marriage would be sin. However, not an unforgivable one. I'm a divorcee, and odds are I'll remarry. Just being honest. If it's a sin to do so, I pray God knows my heart... and forgives me.

Praxeas
10-08-2011, 05:53 PM
The bible never forbids a divorced person, divorced under the conditions set by Jesus, from remarrying

Aquila
10-08-2011, 08:20 PM
The bible never forbids a divorced person, divorced under the conditions set by Jesus, from remarrying

The interpretation I heard most among brethren is that Jesus NEVER endorses remarriage. The use of "fornication" (sexual immorality) and not "adultery" indicates immorality during betrothal (as binding as marriage according Jewish custom; refer to Joseph's desire to "put away" Mary upon knowledge of pregnancy). This also explains why the "immorality clause" isn't found in the synoptics. Therefore I believe it's best to say that all divorce and remarriages are "sin", and have couples in second marriages fall on the grace of God.

This accomplishes upholding the sanctity of marriage, keeps the church free from having to determine guilt when divorce is rarely so cut and dry, and prevents having to go through theological gymnastics to justify remarriage. I'd sit a minister down for at least a year, if not disqualify them from pulpit ministry.

Sabby
10-08-2011, 08:39 PM
Case In Point:

A Pastors wife falls away. She has an affair with multiple men. She divorces her husband. He is faithful to Christ remarries a few years later.

Is he the husband of one wife?

What do YOU think?

Aquila
10-10-2011, 07:22 AM
I believe that Christ's point is that a second marriage adulterates the first marriage, thus those who divorce and remarry are adulterers. I do believe that God recognizes subsequent marriages. I believe this because Jesus acknowledged to the woman at the well that He knew that she had had "five husbands" in comparison to the man she was currently living with at the time. I can understand a pastor choosing not to unite divorced individuals in holy matrimony. I can also understand sitting a minister who remarries down for a period... if not disqualifying him indefinitely. I do believe that God can forgive those who remarry and sanctify their second marriage as a standing covenant. Personally, if I were a pastor I'd not perform weddings for those who had been divorced (keep in mind, I'm a divorcee so this would include me). I'd counsel those wishing to remarry and help them to find peace and the grace and peace of God but not perform a public wedding. I would suggest that they marry through the court, but recognize them as husband and wife from the pulpit for the sake of the congregation. I'd not allow the couple on the platform or to work in visible service for at least a year, as a general rule. They'd be aware of this policy from our counseling secessions, it wouldn't be a surprise. I'd be sure to have emphasized in counseling that this isn't so much as a "penalty" as it is a hedge of protection that allows them to focus on their new union without being highly visible among the saints.

The reason why I think it best for the church never to fully endorse second marriages is to avoid trying to determine who is "at fault" for the divorce. I've seen couples lie and get outright NASTY against their ex to justify a remarriage. I think it best to keep the church out of the mess. Whoever was "at fault" for the divorce isn't as important as healing and restoring those who have suffered from the pain of the divorce. Also, it is a very rare occasion wherein only one person is truly at fault. I've know of individuals who tried to pressure their spouses to be intimate with another another just be justified in their future plans to leave them. Thus you can't entirely place the blame on the spouse who "actively" engaged in immorality. I know of people who separated because a spouse abandoned them and the abandoned one was told by the church to not to file for divorce. The abandoning spouse didn't file either. As the "separation" lingered on for two or more years the spouse that was originally abandoned becomes lonely and falls into sin. Then the abandoning spouse comes back with a vengence and files for divorce on the grounds of adultery. Clearly, in this case, you can't place all of the blame on one of them. To keep the church out of the middle and out of all the DIRT that takes place in a divorce, I think it's best that the church not focus on who was at fault. But rather acknowledge that divorce and remarriage isn't God's perfect will, and thus it is sin in all circumstances regardless as to who was at fault. Then focus on healing the people involved by having them find the grace of God, address some of the issues they faced with their divorce if they are willing to counsel on them, and then allow them to remarry in a more private setting or through the courts.

This also keeps the church from having to jump through theological hoops to justify remarriage in a situation that the Scriptures do not address. For example, if a woman was brutalized repeatedly by her husband until she had to divorce him to protect herself and her children. Who would fault her for divorcing? Who would fault her for desiring to remarry another at some point? Some churches then jump through the theological hoop of saying that "fornication" breaks the marriage covenant.... therefore any behavior that breaks the marriage covenant to "love, honor, and cherish" justifies remarriage. While I see their point, I think it's speaking where Scripture is silent. All Scripture addresses is "putting away" on the grounds of "fornication". So I believe my position protects the church from having to wrest the Scriptures to justify remarriage for an obviously abused party wherein divorce was on grounds other than sexual unfaithfulness.

It allows for equal healing and restoration to all involved.

And it upholds the sanctity of marriage, identifying Jewish betrothal customs and why Christ uses the word "fornication" and not "adultery". In addition it answers why the "fornication" clause isn't found in Mark or Luke.

Mark 10:11
And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

Mark 10:12
And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Luke 16:18
Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

Notice, no exception clause. Notice Matthew's exception clause:

Matthew 5:32
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Matthew 19:9
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

I believe that Matthew is speaking of unfaithfulness during betrothal (fornication), not after the wedding. Notice a case in point mentioned by Matthew himself:

Matthew 1:18-19
18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.


Notice they were engaged. Notice that they had not be united in marriage as of yet. Notice that Joseph suspected her to be guilty of "fornication". Notice also that Joseph had to prepare for a formal "putting away" to break the engagement. I believe that this is what the exception clause in Matthew is addressing. Not actual "adultery".

Aquila
10-11-2011, 11:08 AM
No one wishes to share their thoughts?

shag
10-11-2011, 11:33 AM
No one wishes to share their thoughts?

Yeah, if they would've fixed the flat tire on my bucket truck right the first time, I wouldn't be setting here losing money waiting, again!

U asked...:)

Nitehawk013
10-11-2011, 11:54 AM
I think Prax is right.

My wife was divorced. Her husband cheated on her repeatedly and abused her. She attempted to council and reconcile, he wouldn't do it.

I suppose to some I therefore am in adultery. So be it. I felt the scriptures were clear that she was free to remarry.

Aquila
10-11-2011, 12:38 PM
Yeah, if they would've fixed the flat tire on my bucket truck right the first time, I wouldn't be setting here losing money waiting, again!

U asked...:)

lol

Digging4Truth
10-11-2011, 12:42 PM
Does no one feel that the mention of a man being the husband of one wife is referring to polygamy?

Aquila
10-11-2011, 01:00 PM
I think Prax is right.

My wife was divorced. Her husband cheated on her repeatedly and abused her. She attempted to council and reconcile, he wouldn't do it.

I suppose to some I therefore am in adultery. So be it. I felt the scriptures were clear that she was free to remarry.

I think you've embraced the most common Evangelical interpretation of the passage. It's a valid and widely accepted opinion.

What got me was that Jesus said, except the divorce be for "fornication", remarriage is "adultery". Notice... in the same sentence Jesus uses two very different terms. If an actual spouse is unfaithful, it's adultery... not fornication. However, if Matthew is addressing the Jewish custom regarding unfaithfulness during betrothal (as illustrated in the story of Mary and Joseph) then unfaithfulness would indeed be "fornication" in the truest sense of the word. And this is also in accordance to the law. If a woman was found to not be a virgin prior to marriage the husband had a right to put her away and marry another. The charge? "Fornication" not "Adultery" (because the indiscretion happened prior to the wedding), just as Christ implied.

This interpretation would also agree with the words of Jesus in Mark and Luke:

Mark 10:11
And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

Mark 10:12
And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Luke 16:18
Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

Notice... neither Mark or Luke include the "exception clause" found in Matthew's Gospel. That has bothered scholars since the earliest days of the church. I think the issue is best explained by consideration of the audience each writer was writing too. Matthew's Gospel was written to a predominantly Jewish audience. Mark and Luke were written primarily to a Gentile audience. The Gentiles wouldn't have the betrothal customs that the Jews had, nor be concerned with the law's stipulations on a woman not being a virgin prior to marriage.

If the above is true, Jesus never endorced marrying another after putting away one's partner... except if she's found to be unfaithful during betrothal (fornication). The obvious implication is that remarriage outside of this circumstance is ALWAYS adultery.

My wife left me... and I've come to this conclusion. However, I admit that I'm seeing a woman (also a divorcee). Now, both of our ex's were unfaithful to us. So... we could claim the "exception clause". However, in all honesty, I find the hermeneutic behind the idea that "exception clause" is regarding unfaithfulness during betrothal to be the most plausible meaning of the text. I'm in the uncomfortable position of admitting that this interpretation bothers me but is most logical. Therefore, my desire to one day remarry, I confess, adulterates the first marriage in that it seals any chance for reconciliation to take place. I must own that sin, confess it, and pray for God to forgive and bless my new union (should I remarry).

In some ways... I'm comforted by this interpretation though. First, it's humbling and has confronted me with my sins and the part I played in my divorce even though I wasn't the "unfaithful" one. I was emotionally harmful. I was verbally harmful. I drove her to seek to have her emotional and physical needs met elsewhere. Frankly, I'm just as to blame as she. I can't just point my finger at her, jump on the remarriage bus, and accuse her in a pastor's office to justify my being remarried. First, it's unfair to her given the part I indeed played. Second, it will only dig up old bones that I'm sure she's prayed about and tried to have put under the blood. I don't want to bring up all those old feelings by having her hear that I trashed her for her unfaithfulness in a pastor's office to justify remarriage. So... I'm more at peace with owning the sin and falling into the hands of a God of grace and mercy.

Just my take on things bro. This is a difficult subject. Here's a great book that presents all three perspectives. It helped me come to a conclusion and find acceptance on the matter.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_2_10?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=remarriage+after+divorce+in+today%27s+chu rch&sprefix=Remarriage

God bless.

seguidordejesus
10-11-2011, 01:40 PM
Do you think God forgives a willful sin? I mean...PLANNING to repent? That's absurd.

Praxeas
10-11-2011, 01:44 PM
I think Prax is right.

My wife was divorced. Her husband cheated on her repeatedly and abused her. She attempted to council and reconcile, he wouldn't do it.

I suppose to some I therefore am in adultery. So be it. I felt the scriptures were clear that she was free to remarry.
I agree.The problem people have is a lack of biblical hermeneutics.

Jesus is saying if a man divorces a woman, except for the case of adultery, if she marries she commits adultery. Why? Because without the exception the are still married in the eyes of God

Aquila
10-11-2011, 02:00 PM
Do you think God forgives a willful sin? I mean...PLANNING to repent? That's absurd.

All sin is willful sin. Have you ever, are you, or will you ever willfully sin? For example... choose to look at something you shouldn't? Go where you shouldn't. Say something you shouldn't? All sin is willful.

David is an excellent case in point. David willfully sinned (adultery and murder)... yet God forgave David. Now... that doesn't mean that one will not face the repercussions of their actions. Nor does it mean that they will not be judged and punished by God. David faced shame, humiliation, and the lost of his first born on account of his sin... even though he was forgiven and still loved by God.

Aquila
10-11-2011, 02:09 PM
I agree.The problem people have is a lack of biblical hermeneutics.

Jesus is saying if a man divorces a woman, except for the case of adultery, if she marries she commits adultery. Why? Because without the exception the are still married in the eyes of God

Actually... that's not what Jesus said.

Matthew 5:32
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Jesus stated "saving for the cause of fornication". The sin of "fornication" is charged against the unmarried. Please note: Under Jewish law breaking a betrothal required divorcement as we see in the case of Joseph preparing to put way Mary on account of her pregancy. Here we see Matthew 5:32 in action. If this isn't speaking of unfaithfulness during betrothal... Jesus would have used the term "adultery" as He does clauses 4 and 5. An actual spouse doesn't commit "fornication" when unfaithful... they commit "adultery", as illustrated by Jesus Himself. Thus, with this Jewish custom aside Mark and Luke are clear with regards to Christ's intended meaning:

Mark 10:11
And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.

Mark 10:12
And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.

Luke 16:18
Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

The reason why remarriage is adultery is because the second marriage covenant (remarriage) prevents any hope of reconciliation. It's the ultimate adulteration and death blow to the first marriage. It's best to confess the sin of remarriage and ask God's forgiveness if one must remarry. Ideally, the divorced should remain single for life to allow for reconciliation.

seguidordejesus
10-11-2011, 02:18 PM
All sin is willful sin. Have you ever, are you, or will you ever willfully sin? For example... choose to look at something you shouldn't? Go where you shouldn't. Say something you shouldn't? All sin is willful.

David is an excellent case in point. David willfully sinned (adultery and murder)... yet God forgave David. Now... that doesn't mean that one will not face the repercussions of their actions. Nor does it mean that they will not be judged and punished by God. David faced shame, humiliation, and the lost of his first born on account of his sin... even though he was forgiven and still loved by God.

Sorry, Aquila, I just can't discuss this with you anymore - this just makes me ill. Talk about abusing grace.

Praxeas
10-11-2011, 02:22 PM
Aquila I used the word adultery because that is what is being discussed and it relays the idea of unfaithfulness

The word for fornication is pornea. Fornication is a bad translation stemming from the KJV

Fornication is seen as sex between two unmarried people who are not married to anyone else while adultery is sex between a married person with someone other than their spouse. Well that is NOT the case here

The word Pornea refers to ANY sexual sin

porneía, gen. porneías, fem. noun from porneúō (G4203), to commit fornication or any sexual sin. Fornication, lewdness, or any sexual sin.

Here is one dictionary on Fornication
1. voluntary sexual intercourse outside marriage
2. law voluntary sexual intercourse between two persons of the opposite sex, where one is or both are unmarried
3. Bible sexual immorality in general, esp adultery

It's only one limited view of the word that involves sex between two unmarried persons

Back to Pornea. If a woman who is married to a man has sex with some other man, that is Pornea because it is a sexual sin. The specific sexual sin is adultery

The point remains that a person who is divorced for other reasons OTHER THAN sexual immorality, and marries another, is committing adultery. How? Because that person is legally under the law of God, married to his or her spounse since the reason for divorce was unacceptable by God.

Adultery is the sexual sin of cheating on a spouse. How can it be then that a person divorced for a reason other than sexual immorality, is committing adultery by having relations with another person? Simple, the are still married to the first person legally in the eyes of God

Praxeas
10-11-2011, 02:28 PM
BTW Mark is in response to a question about divorces, not what situation divorce was ok.

These are two different topics. The Jews thought they could put a wife away for ANY REASON. Jesus was countering the notion that if a man gets bored with his wife or some other lame excuse, he could divorce her

Gill
The commentators (k) on this passage say that the determination of the matter is, according to the school of Millell; so that, according to them, a woman might be put away for a very trivial thing: some difference is made by some of the Jewish doctors, between a first and second wife; the first wife, they say (l), might not be put away, but for adultery; but the second might be put away, if her husband hated her; or she was of ill behaviour, and impudent, and not modest, as the daughters of Israel. Now our Lord says, without any exception, that a man ought not to put away his wife, whether first or second, for any other reason than uncleanness; and that whoever does, upon any other account,
causeth her to commit adultery; that is, as much as in him lies: should she commit it, he is the cause of it, by exposing her, through a rejection of her, to the sinful embraces of others; and, indeed, should she marry another man, whilst he is alive, which her divorce allows her to do, she must be guilty of adultery; since she is his proper wife, the bond of marriage not being dissolved by such a divorce: and
whosoever shall marry her that is divorced, committeth adultery; because the divorced woman he marries, and takes to his bed; is legally the wife of another man; and it may be added, from Mat_19:9 that her husband, who has put her away, upon any other account than fornication, should he marry another woman, would be guilty of the same crime.

Aquila
10-12-2011, 12:17 AM
Prax, wouldn't gross abuse violate the marriage covenant as much as sexual immorality? Just want your thoughts on it.

Also "fornication" (or sexual immorality) according to this interpretation could be more than the act of adultery. A spouse could divorce because their mate self gratified or sinned by looking at pornography. The offended could file for divorce and remarry. The one with a porn problem or compulsive habit cannot. I find that interesting.

Praxeas
10-12-2011, 12:24 AM
Prax, wouldn't gross abuse violate the marriage covenant as much as sexual immorality? Just want your thoughts on it.

Also "fornication" (or sexual immorality) according to this interpretation could be more than the act of adultery. A spouse could divorce because their mate self gratified or sinned by looking at pornography. The offended could file for divorce and remarry. The one with a porn problem or compulsive habit cannot. I find that interesting.
Pornia is any sexual sin

But yeah I would say gross abuse violates the covenant

Nitehawk013
10-13-2011, 09:50 AM
That is the same conclusion I came to Prax. And it was after a good amount of study and prayer.

I was in the camp that any remarriage, except in instances of death, was wrong for a number of years. Then I started really looking at it and some of the couples I knew who were remarried. That pressed me to study more on it. In time I came to the same stance I am now, in agreement with Prax.

Then about 2 years later I started dating the woman who is now my wife.

Praxeas
10-13-2011, 01:53 PM
That is the same conclusion I came to Prax. And it was after a good amount of study and prayer.

I was in the camp that any remarriage, except in instances of death, was wrong for a number of years. Then I started really looking at it and some of the couples I knew who were remarried. That pressed me to study more on it. In time I came to the same stance I am now, in agreement with Prax.

Then about 2 years later I started dating the woman who is now my wife.
Awesome

Digging4Truth
10-13-2011, 01:58 PM
Does no one feel that the mention of a man being the husband of one wife is referring to polygamy?

Guess not. :)

Amanah
10-13-2011, 02:00 PM
Guess not. :)

was polygamy practiced by Jews at the time of Jesus?
i know it was practiced in the OT.
or was it an issue in any of the regions where churches were started?

Digging4Truth
10-13-2011, 03:07 PM
was polygamy practiced by Jews at the time of Jesus?
i know it was practiced in the OT.
or was it an issue in any of the regions where churches were started?

Justin Martyr sees it still being practiced by Jews as late as 160ad.

I just often wonder if we view the wording of statements such as these with a view that is different from the time.

Such as, in the OT, when it mentions the wife of thy youth. We often see that as simply talking about your wife that you married when you both were young. But that could be talking about keeping one wife... the wife of your youth... your first one.

Nitehawk013
10-14-2011, 12:18 PM
I would not be surprised if it didn't at least in part refer to polygamy.

Aquila
10-14-2011, 12:25 PM
Sorry, Aquila, I just can't discuss this with you anymore - this just makes me ill. Talk about abusing grace.

So, are you saying that a believer shouldn't remarry?

seguidordejesus
10-14-2011, 12:36 PM
So, are you saying that a believer shouldn't remarry?

No, I actually disagree with you on that; I am shocked that you would so callously "plan" to repent and abuse God's grace, according to your view on remarriage.