I have a question about the UPC

[Amanah]

Are there churches in the UPC that don't preach holiness "standards"

that do believe that salvation is a Repentance

that believe that baptism is unto the remission of sins (not for the remission of sins)

that believe you are saved at repentance

and that you are saved before you receive the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues

Are there churches in the UPC that preach/teach the above? and if so, how many?

[TGBTG]

kinda off topic here (but still on topic...lol)

I wonder why people mention "baptism for the remission of sins" As in Peter said repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. So I see both the repentance and the baptism going together for the remission of sins...

Just my observation anyways...

[berkeley]

You will not get accurate info as many are afraid to express their real views.

[Amanah]

kinda off topic here (but still on topic...lol)

I wonder why people mention "baptism for the remission of sins" As in Peter said repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. So I see both the repentance and the baptism going together for the remission of sins...

Just my observation anyways...

you are saying that repentance and baptism together remits sins?

[berkeley]

kinda off topic here (but still on topic...lol)

I wonder why people mention "baptism for the remission of sins" As in Peter said repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. So I see both the repentance and the baptism going together for the remission of sins...

Just my observation anyways...

BECAUSE "for the remission of sins" points to "repent," it does not point to "and be baptized."

[Praxeas]

Are there churches in the UPC that don't preach holiness "standards"

There are some that don't preach them but still abide by them. By that I mean it's rarely taught or preached and they are not as fanatical about them as others

There are some perhaps that don't abide by them at all but they probably won't remain longer in the UPC


that do believe that salvation is a Repentance


That salvation occurs by faith at repentance? I know there were some. Many left because the UPC was too conservative...which is ironic since the conservatives left because the UPC is too liberal


that believe that baptism is unto the remission of sins (not for the remission of sins)

Not sure what the distinction is you are trying to make


and that you are saved before you receive the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues

Or can be saved before...I know from personal experience there are many that believe you can be saved before


Are there churches in the UPC that preach/teach the above? and if so, how many?

You'll never get a number

There are many pastors that believe a person can be saved, or rather God can save someone despite not being baptized in Jesus name, particularly if they have received the baptism with tongues

[Praxeas]

The UPC articles of faith says sins are forgiven at or when we genuinely repent

[Amanah]

ok

[TGBTG]

you are saying that repentance and baptism together remits sins?

I was just making on observation on the verse itself...

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I'm not a scholar, so maybe the antecedent for "remission of sins" is only "be baptized" and does not include "repent".

However, since Peter also said in Acts 10:43
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
(FYI: I don't see repenting any different than believing. I think they go hand in hand as per Acts 20:21)

Based on Acts 10:43 ALONE, we'd say that believing in him remits our sins. But then we see that Peter told them to be baptized because Jesus himself COMMANDED water baptism.

Now, traditional protestant teaching is that baptism is an outward sign of an inward work. I have come to disagree with that in the last few days because Peter obviously knew that the gentiles had received the HolyGhost. So, Peter obviously knew the inward work had taken place. Nevertheless, they were commanded to be baptized.

So putting Acts 2:38 together with Acts 10:43-48 and Acts 16:31-33, I see repentance and baptism going hand-in-hand for the remission of sins.

In any case, if a person repents and trusts in Christ they will be baptized.
If a person is baptized without repentance, the person is obviously NOT saved. So therefore, I believe that repentance is the CRUCIAL part of the whole story.

I guess I have just talked myself into being a one-stepper...lol

[Praxeas]

Water baptism is a number of things, including an outward sign of an inward work, but the bible never actually says that is what it is for or limits to that.

Baptism was a practice of discipleship. If you were to be someone's disciple he baptized you. If he gives you authority to make disciples in His name you went out and made disciples to the Master and baptized them in place of the Master doing so in His name. John's disciples were baptized by John

Disciples of Jesus are baptized by His messengers in His stead and in His name

[TGBTG]

Water baptism is a number of things, including an outward sign of an inward work, but the bible never actually says that is what it is for or limits to that.

Prax, about "outward sign of an inward work". What if the person has not genuinely repented and they got baptized? that baptism obviously would not be the sign of an inward work...right?

[Praxeas]

Prax, about "outward sign of an inward work". What if the person has not genuinely repented and they got baptized? that baptism obviously would not be the sign of an inward work...right?
Just because something can be a sign does not mean it causes the work.

Im sure we can find Atheists that are good people too, does not mean they are saved though being good could be a sign of an inward work as well

[Amanah]

ok Prax, so do you believe that repentance and receiving the HG with tongues as evidence are needed to be saved.

or, do you believe that we are justified by faith in the blood of Jesus at repentance even if we never get baptized and receive the Holy Ghost?

[TGBTG]

ok Prax, so do you believe that repentance and receiving the HG with tongues as evidence are needed to be saved.

or, do you believe that we are justified by faith in the blood of Jesus at repentance even if we never get baptized and receive the Holy Ghost?

I know this was to Prax, but I wanna put my input:

I believe we are justified by faith in the blood of Christ at repentance (Rom 3:26). But I don't think a repentant sinner WILL refuse baptism. (So I guess in that way, baptism would be the sinner's way of showing that an inward work has occurred)

It is up to the preacher to tell the sinner that Jesus commands us to be baptized as his disciples. We have to remember that a sinner in most cases does not even know about baptism. So we are to tell them about it. Also, we are to tell them about the Baptism of the HolyGhost.

If a person does not hear about baptism and the baptism of the HolyGhost because of the church they got saved in, it's not the fault of the new convert. It's the fault of the old convert who did not tell them the FULL GOSPEL...

Having said that, I believe that repentance is the crucial part of it all...

Notice what Jesus says here in Mk 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

A person is condemned when he/she does NOT believe. A believer would obviously get baptized

If we would study the book of John, we see Jesus emphasizes believing on him a lot:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.


John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. (NOTICE THAT THEY WILL DIE IN THEIR SINS BECAUSE OF THEIR UNBELIEF IN JESUS CHRIST.)

John 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
John 9:36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
John 9:37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
John 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

[Praxeas]

ok Prax, so do you believe that repentance and receiving the HG with tongues as evidence are needed to be saved.

or, do you believe that we are justified by faith in the blood of Jesus at repentance even if we never get baptized and receive the Holy Ghost?
I believe that Faith is needed to be saved. Sins are "forgiven" or we receive forgiveness when we repent.

A person with genuine faith will obey the scriptures and be baptized

I believe tongues is the normative experience when being baptized with the Spirit but that does not mean if one has not spoken in tongues yet the have not been baptized yet

The odd thing is, none of the people that had faith in the bible ever EVER questioned Peter or the other Apostles that way...they all obediently were baptized

[TGBTG]

I believe that Faith is needed to be saved. Sins are "forgiven" or we receive forgiveness when we repent.

A person with genuine faith will obey the scriptures and be baptized

I believe tongues is the normative experience when being baptized with the Spirit but that does not mean if one has not spoken in tongues yet the have not been baptized yet

The odd thing is, none of the people that had faith in the bible ever EVER questioned Peter or the other Apostles that way...they all obediently were baptized

Have you ever come across a "believer" who refused baptism?

[Sherri]

Amanah--there are SOME UPC preachers who believe all of the things you mentioned above, but they won't last long in UPC if they voice those opinions. Usually (like us) they leave, because they don't feel right about staying a part of something that you can't agree with the doctrine and teach it with a clear conscience.

[Amanah]

You guys have no idea how difficult it is for me to wrap my mind around some of these thoughts.

It's very similar to what I have always believed as an OP, but its different too.

but it seems the subtle difference is faith/works.

which could actually be more then a subtle difference.

[TGBTG]

You guys have no idea how difficult it is for me to wrap my mind around some of these thoughts.

It's very similar to what I have always believed as an OP, but its different too.

but it seems the subtle difference is faith/works.

which could actually be more then a subtle difference.

...I would say pray about it, but also what exactly is difficult for ya if I may ask?

[freeatlast]

Are there churches in the UPC that don't preach holiness "standards"

that do believe that salvation is a Repentance

that believe that baptism is unto the remission of sins (not for the remission of sins)

that believe you are saved at repentance

and that you are saved before you receive the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues

Are there churches in the UPC that preach/teach the above? and if so, how many?

One that I occasionally attend would be pretty close to what you describe.
The church like over 50% of all UPCi churches is NON Affiliated.
The pastor still holds a license with the UPC
Here's a web link www.newlifequadcities.com

like Sherry statted there ar many pastors/churches that do not hold to the beliefs of the UPC as stated by the UPC articles of faith and beliefs.

I'm not sure why so many stay with the "mother ship" maybe fear peer pressure, whatever.

[Amanah]

The church that I spent a good majority of my adult life in preached it this way:

The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus
to obey the gospel, you repent (death), be baptized (burial) in the Name of Jesus Christ for the Remission of your sins, and Receive the HG (resurrection), evidenced by speaking in tongues.

After you are born again of the water and the Spirit, (baptism/HG), the you must obey holiness standards, be at church every time the door is opened, pray every day, fast weekly, pay tithes, ready your bible, win souls, ect, ect, or you are going to hell.

Now you can live in this atmosphere and still have a lot of heart and devotion to God, and there are alot of things that work out ok, but you live in constant fear of missing the mark and going to hell also.

I have won many souls to the Lord, and it came by prayer and fasting and teaching bible studies, but it also came from fear that if I didn't do it, I would go to hell. There came a point when I gave up and said I just couldn't live it anymore. There came a point when I was convinced it was impossible to be saved.

Then, for reasons I don't want to elaborate on, everything changed and my old church is gone. well not really gone, reborn as a new different church.

(at this point I'm skipping some of the story, fast forward in time)

So I come here and learn that the gospel is really the good news about Jesus.
and that I've been very focused on Acts 2:38, 3 steps to being born again.
but forgot that Romans says we are justified by faith when we repent.

And I've been baptized in Jesus name and filled with the HG, evidenced by speaking in tongues.

But a part of me is still afraid that I can't be good enough to go to heaven and that possibly I'm on my way to hell.

So, I have to decide between going back to something I don't want to go back to so I can make sure I'm saved, or going to a church that is probably more like Sherri's church, that would be much less stressfull, probably a lot more enjoyable, but I need to make very sure that I'm going to be saved.

I have many friends in both churches, for when my former church changed to not teaching standards, and believing saved at repentance, (although they still baptize in Jesus Name, believe in oneness, and receiving the HG w/tongues), a good percentage left for the UPC church nearby.

My sister is on board with going to our old church, she feels comfortable there.
I somewhat want to do that also. I'm just afraid I may be wrong. If it's a matter of heaven or hell, I can't afford to be wrong.

I would also prefer to convince myself that universal reconciliation is real.

Or maybe the destruction of lost souls would be good, even if you miss heaven, you don't scream in agony for eternity, you just are gone.

I would not say I'm especially enjoying my salvation atm. Instead I would say I'm very torn and don't know what to do.

And discussing this on this forum is probably not wise, I know.

But now maybe you can understand why I keep asking questions, and going over it over and over again.

How can one way be right, and then all of a sudden, no, It's really another way.

[berkeley]

Amanah, read houston's signature

[Amanah]

I actually think I'll memorize this :)

"...to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Rom 4:4-5

[freeatlast]

I actually think I'll memorize this :)

"...to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Rom 4:4-5

You can learn much from doing a good study of Romans.

[Dedicated Mind]

Amanah, It sounds to me like you are struggling with the same issues of Martin Luther, whether we can merit salvation. I believe catholics teach that by good works you earn merit for salvation while Luther claims we are justified by faith alone. I believe that we should obey the word and that part of faith is obedience, but good works are a product of our salvation and not the means of salvation. I believe that baptism and holiness is part of the obedience of faith that saves us. So I think it is a midddle ground between Luther and catholicism. Does any of this make sense? Let me know what you think.

[Amanah]

You can learn much from doing a good study of Romans.

It's funny that you should say that. That is what I'm doing atm.

[Amanah]

Amanah, It sounds to me like you are struggling with the same issues of Martin Luther, whether we can merit salvation. I believe catholics teach that by good works you earn merit for salvation while Luther claims we are justified by faith alone. I believe that we should obey the word and that part of faith is obedience, but good works are a product of our salvation and not the means of salvation. I believe that baptism and holiness is part of the obedience of faith that saves us. So I think it is a midddle ground between Luther and catholicism. Does any of this make sense? Let me know what you think.

Yes, I just need to unlearn some things . . . really, just tweak some of the things I've learned to be more balanced.

[Austin]

It's funny that you should say that. That is what I'm doing atm.

I have been reading your responses to a lot of this stuff. I went through all of this back during the late 70's as a result it caused me to leave all christian affiliations. Don't let that happen to you.
You know by common sense there are no churches with the exact truth in the doctrines of Christ. You also know that there is no one out there in any church that lives totally above the power sin all the time.
Now you have the spirit of truth let him lead you. Don't listen to all of this stuff it will drive you crazy.
Salvation is of God not man for no man can keep all the commandments to be justified, if they say they are then they are telling a lie.
The new nature jesus gave us, the power of his spirit in us is our strength to overcome the world. his blood was sprinkled on the mercy seat in heaven one time and for all sin forever. he then went and sat down, which indicates a finished work. he did that before you came into this world and your sins were in that atonement on that day by the foreknowledge of God.
That inheritance was imparted to you the very hour you by faith and repentance received the Lord jesus as your personal savior. As an act of obedience to the scriptures you were baptised and received the Holy Ghost.
When that happen you took on a new nature one created by God and in his likeness. he came to dwell in your soul in person to have a relationship with you as well as lead you in all truth. Now, listen to him and stop listening to everything and everyone, you will only become depressed and discouraged.
Follow Jesus, don't take your eyes off him for any reason, he loved you before the world began and he died for you while you were still a sinner, then how much more does he love you now that you have become his property. he has sworn with an oath that he is able to keep that which you have committed to him against that day of judgement. So look up and rejoice and live in joy.

[Sabby]

BECAUSE "for the remission of sins" points to "repent," it does not point to "and be baptized."

Genaucht! :thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup

[berkeley]

Genaucht! :thumbsup:thumbsup:thumbsup

I don't speak Spanish.

[TGBTG]

The church that I spent a good majority of my adult life in preached it this way:

The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus
to obey the gospel, you repent (death), be baptized (burial) in the Name of Jesus Christ for the Remission of your sins, and Receive the HG (resurrection), evidenced by speaking in tongues.

After you are born again of the water and the Spirit, (baptism/HG), the you must obey holiness standards, be at church every time the door is opened, pray every day, fast weekly, pay tithes, ready your bible, win souls, ect, ect, or you are going to hell.

Now you can live in this atmosphere and still have a lot of heart and devotion to God, and there are alot of things that work out ok, but you live in constant fear of missing the mark and going to hell also.

I have won many souls to the Lord, and it came by prayer and fasting and teaching bible studies, but it also came from fear that if I didn't do it, I would go to hell. There came a point when I gave up and said I just couldn't live it anymore. There came a point when I was convinced it was impossible to be saved.

Then, for reasons I don't want to elaborate on, everything changed and my old church is gone. well not really gone, reborn as a new different church.

(at this point I'm skipping some of the story, fast forward in time)

So I come here and learn that the gospel is really the good news about Jesus.
and that I've been very focused on Acts 2:38, 3 steps to being born again.
but forgot that Romans says we are justified by faith when we repent.

And I've been baptized in Jesus name and filled with the HG, evidenced by speaking in tongues.

But a part of me is still afraid that I can't be good enough to go to heaven and that possibly I'm on my way to hell.

So, I have to decide between going back to something I don't want to go back to so I can make sure I'm saved, or going to a church that is probably more like Sherri's church, that would be much less stressfull, probably a lot more enjoyable, but I need to make very sure that I'm going to be saved.

I have many friends in both churches, for when my former church changed to not teaching standards, and believing saved at repentance, (although they still baptize in Jesus Name, believe in oneness, and receiving the HG w/tongues), a good percentage left for the UPC church nearby.

My sister is on board with going to our old church, she feels comfortable there.
I somewhat want to do that also. I'm just afraid I may be wrong. If it's a matter of heaven or hell, I can't afford to be wrong.

I would also prefer to convince myself that universal reconciliation is real.

Or maybe the destruction of lost souls would be good, even if you miss heaven, you don't scream in agony for eternity, you just are gone.

I would not say I'm especially enjoying my salvation atm. Instead I would say I'm very torn and don't know what to do.

And discussing this on this forum is probably not wise, I know.

But now maybe you can understand why I keep asking questions, and going over it over and over again.

How can one way be right, and then all of a sudden, no, It's really another way.

Dear Sister,

Jesus said in Matt 7:7 "Ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find..."

I believe you are at a stage wherein you wanna be 100% sure where you stand on your beliefs, and we all should have that same conviction.

The only person who can give us that assurance however is Jesus. I would say don't worry too much and just continue seeking God's face in Spirit and in truth with all sincerity.

There's a reason why God brings us to different stages of our lives and he that has brought you thus far will NOT forsake you.

So keep loving Jesus with all you have and trust that He will lead you into all truth.

Having said that, I wanna comment on the two statements of yours.

But a part of me is still afraid that I can't be good enough to go to heaven and that possibly I'm on my way to hell.

On the first one, none of us is good enough for heaven (Rom 3:10). And there's nothing we can do that can make us good enough for heaven.
When we grasp fully that there's nothing we can do as individuals that can make us good enough for heaven, we're on the right path.
So since we're CANNOT be righteous enough for heaven, the ONLY righteousness good enough for heaven is God's own righteousness. Now, I'm sure you'll agree with me that no one is as RIGHTEOUS AS GOD. Therefore, the only way we can be as righteous as God (to be qualified for heaven) is to be covered with God's own righteousness. The question then is WHAT IS THE PROCEDURE TO GET COVERED WITH GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS?

You'll find the answer as you continue studying Romans

I would not say I'm especially enjoying my salvation atm. Instead I would say I'm very torn and don't know what to do.
Let not your heart be troubled sister. It is the devil that does not want us to enjoy our salvation. Personally, when things seem to be muddy, I just spend time singing praises and worship unto God. He will give you calm in the midst of storms...

[TGBTG]

BECAUSE "for the remission of sins" points to "repent," it does not point to "and be baptized."

So you're saying what I'm saying then...

[berkeley]

So you're saying what I'm saying then...

I didn't say that THAT is my stand.

[aegsm76]

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"

"Baptism doth also now save us"

"Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins"

[houston]

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved"

"Baptism doth also now save us"

"Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins"

1) he that believeth not shall be damned

2) not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God

3) calling upon the name of the Lord

[Praxeas]

Have you ever come across a "believer" who refused baptism?
I've come across "believers" that refuse to be re-baptized

[Michael The Disciple]

I've come across "believers" that refuse to be re-baptized

I know one who teaches baptism is not necessary period. He says he believes in Oneness and that he is an Apostle.

[Amanah]

well, God works in mysterious ways

this morning because we are having very bad storms and flooding here in Sebastian Florida, I decided to go to the AoG church that is an 8 min drive from my home.

the Pastor is just beginning a series on faith that he will be teaching for the next several weeks.

I thoroughly enjoyed his teaching this morning and have decided that it was/is just what I need to hear right now. So, yeah, I will be attending an AoG church for the time being.

[TGBTG]

well, God works in mysterious ways

this morning because we are having very bad storms and flooding here in Sebastian Florida, I decided to go to the AoG church that is an 8 min drive from my home.

the Pastor is just beginning a series on faith that he will be teaching for the next several weeks.

I thoroughly enjoyed his teaching this morning and have decided that it was/is just what I need to hear right now. So, yeah, I will be attending an AoG church for the time being.

bless your heart sis...

[Praxeas]

I know one who teaches baptism is not necessary period. He says he believes in Oneness and that he is an Apostle.
I will always say baptism is necessary. The bible never speaks of it as a suggestion, but it is not necessarily a pre-requisite to being justified

[BrotherEastman]

in the 3 and a half years since I've been going to a UPC church, I have yet to hear my pastor teach on standards.

[Amanah]

in the 3 and a half years since I've been going to a UPC church, I have yet to hear my pastor teach on standards.

this thread wasn't about standards really, it was about overall doctrine.

[The Lemon]

Amanah,

Are you sure we did not go to the same church? I know exactly what you mean about ACTS 2:38, then the on going list afterward that never seemed to end. I remember looking at my wife one day and making the remark that I was unsure if we would ever be good enough or do enough to be saved.

What I have found about Pentecost is that we have more in common with the denominal world then we dare admit in mixed company. We believe we have the whole truth...so do they. I remember wondering if the sould I had won were really won to Christ or to the organization. One of the central issues that still is a hot button for me concerns family. I can't tell you how many times I heard preaching about family, but it always seemed to be done with relation to the church and everything going on and with the church - it never really seemed genuwine to me.

The other issue was the while business structure of the church. There were comments made to the effect that we needed to do more to appeal to the more affluent in the community because it would create more revenue for the church. At the end of the day I questioned who we were REALLY living for, and more and more it felt cultish.

Fast forward to today...I respect my peers and my pastor. Do I agree on every point...NO. I do the best I can, which it seems alot of folks on here including you are trying to do. I know we will never agree on everything, and that is fine. The line I have drawn is at my doorstep. In my house we will live for God and do our best to stay in the Word. We have decided to let the other "stuff" roll off. I want to help people and do the best I can for God...therefore I have choosen to ignore the more fringe and overblown traditions of my Pentecostal peers.

At any rate, until God moves or speaks it is usually best to just stand and stay in His Word. There is nothing wrong with questions and study..

[crakjak]

I actually think I'll memorize this :)

"...to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Rom 4:4-5

Amen!!!

[crakjak]

in the 3 and a half years since I've been going to a UPC church, I have yet to hear my pastor teach on standards.

And I thought you had embraced UR??? LOL

[BrotherEastman]

And I thought you had embraced UR??? LOL

UR?????

[scotty]

this thread wasn't about standards really, it was about overall doctrine.

Maybe not in total, but you included it in your main post.

Are there churches in the UPC that don't preach holiness "standards"

that do believe that salvation is a Repentance

that believe that baptism is unto the remission of sins (not for the remission of sins)

that believe you are saved at repentance

and that you are saved before you receive the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues

Are there churches in the UPC that preach/teach the above? and if so, how many?

You guys have no idea how difficult it is for me to wrap my mind around some of these thoughts.

It's very similar to what I have always believed as an OP, but its different too.

but it seems the subtle difference is faith/works.

which could actually be more then a subtle difference.

My best advice to you is to take what you get from here with a grain of salt and study for yourself with much prayer about anything you may question. This forum is the last place you should seek answers to solidify your salvation.

What worries me even more is that when you first came here you spoke out boldly concerning your beliefs and your salvation. PO told you on another thread to stand on your beliefs. If this forum has caused you to question those beliefs to the point you question your own salvation, this is probably not the place for you .

[Steve Epley]

well, God works in mysterious ways

this morning because we are having very bad storms and flooding here in Sebastian Florida, I decided to go to the AoG church that is an 8 min drive from my home.

the Pastor is just beginning a series on faith that he will be teaching for the next several weeks.

I thoroughly enjoyed his teaching this morning and have decided that it was/is just what I need to hear right now. So, yeah, I will be attending an AoG church for the time being.

This is very sad that is why a forum like this is not good for weak saints so many have become apostates because of the ungodly influence of apostates who no longer believe the truth yet the name Apostolic is attached to the forum. I plead with you in Jesus Name go back to your home church and unplug from this forum. Remember Paul does warn about a strong delusion being sent to thos who love their love for truth.

[Timmy]

This is very sad that is why a forum like this is not good for weak saints so many have become apostates because of the ungodly influence of apostates who no longer believe the truth yet the name Apostolic is attached to the forum. I plead with you in Jesus Name go back to your home church and unplug from this forum. Remember Paul does warn about a strong delusion being sent to thos who love their love for truth.

And you know you are not deluded. :thumbsup

[Amanah]

Maybe not in total, but you included it in your main post.





My best advice to you is to take what you get from here with a grain of salt and study for yourself with much prayer about anything you may question. This forum is the last place you should seek answers to solidify your salvation.

What worries me even more is that when you first came here you spoke out boldly concerning your beliefs and your salvation. PO told you on another thread to stand on your beliefs. If this forum has caused you to question those beliefs to the point you question your own salvation, this is probably not the place for you .


I think you are misunderstanding me.

I have not changed my beliefs, I still believe in Repentance, the Oneness of God, Baptism in Jesus Name, and receiving the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in tongues.

The questioning that I've expressed on this board had its origin in things that happened years before I ever came to this board.

What I have learned from this board that I didn't know before was the variety of beliefs encompassed in those who share similar beliefs to my own.

I had assumed that most UPC/OP churches were very similar to the one I spent most of my adult life in.

I didn't realize the variance that existed till I came to this board.

I think I'm wise enough to decide for myself if I need to be here or not.

[Steve Epley]

And you know you are not deluded. :thumbsup

Yes sir I have the Book which you seriously doubt to be inspired.

[Amanah]

This is very sad that is why a forum like this is not good for weak saints so many have become apostates because of the ungodly influence of apostates who no longer believe the truth yet the name Apostolic is attached to the forum. I plead with you in Jesus Name go back to your home church and unplug from this forum. Remember Paul does warn about a strong delusion being sent to thos who love their love for truth.

Thank you Bro Epley, I know you are saying this out of concern for me.

The weird thing is this; the OP church that I spent most of my adult life in now believes people are saved at repentance. They don't believe hardly anything like they used to believe.

That is the reason for the questioning, not this board btw.

[Timmy]

Yes sir I have the Book which you seriously doubt to be inspired.

Never mind what I doubt: you know you are not deluded about the correct interpretation, and everyone else with different interpretations is. :thumbsup

[jeffadams]

Are there churches in the UPC that don't preach holiness "standards"

that do believe that salvation is a Repentance

that believe that baptism is unto the remission of sins (not for the remission of sins)

that believe you are saved at repentance

and that you are saved before you receive the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues

Are there churches in the UPC that preach/teach the above? and if so, how many?

Is there actually anyone saved before we stand in Judgment and hear the Lord say WELL DONE? "He that endureth till the end shall be saved"

[deltaguitar]

Is there actually anyone saved before we stand in Judgment and hear the Lord say WELL DONE? "He that endureth till the end shall be saved"

Actually, we are saved from the foundation of the world and will endure to the end by the power of the Holy Spirit.

[jeffadams]

Actually, we are saved from the foundation of the world and will endure to the end by the power of the Holy Spirit.

HUH?

[Steve Epley]

Thank you Bro Epley, I know you are saying this out of concern for me.

The weird thing is this; the OP church that I spent most of my adult life in now believes people are saved at repentance. They don't believe hardly anything like they used to believe.

That is the reason for the questioning, not this board btw.

Yes it is out of concern. When I became acquainted with forum life was the old FCF it was a wide spectrum of Pentecostal folks and sadly I saw some sincere but hurt folks who would up being decieved by those who were enemies of the Apostolic message. I am praying for you to find a good strong Apostolic church.

[ThePastorsCoach]

Amanah, Just a couple quick observations.
The Pastor of your home church has baptized more people in that church in his 30 years there and seen thousands filled with the Holy Ghost there and in his international ministry. More people have come into the Kingdom of God thru this mans ministry than all the "Apostolic" and UPC churches combined in that entire area.
This Pastor has changed his preaching style but continues to see the altars filled with people repenting of their sins, people being baptized weekly and many being filled with the Holy Ghost. It is true that he no longer deals with the Wesleyan Holiness standards that the UPC and UC's live by. He and his wife are two of the most Godly Christian people I have ever known. They pray and seek God for the lost and hurting. They are the first ones we call when we have prayer needs. They live what they preach!
Here are a few observations:
He is still married to his FIRST and ONLY wife.
He has never been divorced.
He has never beat his wife and sent her to the hospital.
There are no pictures of him on the beach with his arms around other women in skimpy bikini's.
He does not drink alcohol and get drunk and swear like a sailor.
He has never had to resign his credentials or give up his position because of immorality.
He planted a church (his daddy did not give him one) that continues to thrive and see people come into the Kingdom of God on a weekly basis.
When you go to the church he pastors - you do not see move ins and church hoppers from the church across town.
This pastor (at church #1) is a Godly man that is highly respected and has not changed his foundational doctrinal beliefs at all. He continues to believe 1. That there is only One True and Living God. 2. That all should come to repentance. 3. Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ and has baptized THOUSANDS in the name of Jesus Christ. 4 The Baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues.
I just wanted to set the record straight and let people on AFF that the pastor being talked about is a Godly man and he and his wife are two of the greatest people I have ever met.

[deltaguitar]

HUH?

Right, salvation is not a progressive work as some like to say nowadays.

Your comment made it sound like you don't believe we are saved until we get to heaven. This is contrary to scripture as we are told many times in scripture that nothing can separate us from God. The blood of Christ has covered the sins of a believer past, present, and future and that person will be held, if they are truly born again, until they are glorified.

[deltaguitar]

Amanah, Just a couple quick observations.
The Pastor of your home church has baptized more people in that church in his 30 years there and seen thousands filled with the Holy Ghost there and in his international ministry. More people have come into the Kingdom of God thru this mans ministry than all the "Apostolic" and UPC churches combined in that entire area.
This Pastor has changed his preaching style but continues to see the altars filled with people repenting of their sins, people being baptized weekly and many being filled with the Holy Ghost. It is true that he no longer deals with the Wesleyan Holiness standards that the UPC and UC's live by. He and his wife are two of the most Godly Christian people I have ever known. They pray and seek God for the lost and hurting. They are the first ones we call when we have prayer needs. They live what they preach!
Here are a few observations:
He is still married to his FIRST and ONLY wife.
He has never been divorced.
He has never beat his wife and sent her to the hospital.
There are no pictures of him on the beach with his arms around other women in skimpy bikini's.
He does not drink alcohol and get drunk and swear like a sailor.
He has never had to resign his credentials or give up his position because of immorality.
He planted a church (his daddy did not give him one) that continues to thrive and see people come into the Kingdom of God on a weekly basis.
When you go to the church he pastors - you do not see move ins and church hoppers from the church across town.
This pastor (at church #1) is a Godly man that is highly respected and has not changed his foundational doctrinal beliefs at all. He continues to believe 1. That there is only One True and Living God. 2. That all should come to repentance. 3. Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ and has baptized THOUSANDS in the name of Jesus Christ. 4 The Baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues.
I just wanted to set the record straight and let people on AFF that the pastor being talked about is a Godly man and he and his wife are two of the greatest people I have ever met.

Almost all of this could be said about the pastor of the church I came out of. This is why it is so hard to leave sometimes because we know these people are sincere and there is a "heritage" and family ties that go on for generations.

Amanah, you cannot see the movement for what it is while IN the movement. Take a break and go somewhere else for a while, continually hold onto God and trust him that he will lead you to truth. Above all find a church that is bible believing and puts the scripture above all "revelation" and experience.

I didn't change most of my thinking until I had no ties left with the Apostolic movement. When our heritage and identity and belonging is so tied to a movement and a subculture it is very hard to questions anything because our motivations can be so impure that we cannot ask the hard questions without also attacking ourselves. Separation is important in my opinion.