Helltruth.com

[BrotherEastman]

What are some of your thoughts concerning an eternal punishment? Go to www.helltruth.com

[BrotherEastman]

I now believe in the annialation of the dead.

[houston]

After visiting the website?

[Truthseeker]

One thing for sure threat of a burning hell hasn't kept people from sinning.

[BrotherEastman]

After visiting the website?

Actually I was beginning to view this not long before this website.

[seguidordejesus]

What caused you to believe, Comrade?

[houston]

one thing for sure threat of a burning hell hasn't kept people from sinning.

preach!

[Truthseeker]

preach!


I think about Pauls statement " the love of christ constraineth us" the threat of hell hasn't changed us, but i believe the revelation of love will.
t

[Truthseeker]

Some will say no hell would give a license to sin, like it's not happening already.

Is the only reason you wouldn't rob, get drunk, abuse others, want my wife etc... is because of the threat of hell?

[Michael The Disciple]

I now believe in the annialation of the dead.

Thats great Bro! Its amazing what one can learn if they have a teachable attitude. There is far more scripture for this than the other positions.

[BrotherEastman]

What caused you to believe, Comrade?

That we need to develop a love for Christ based on facts and not fear!:thumbsup

[BrotherEastman]

I could never understand why God would send someone to hell for an ageless amount of time for only a lifetime worth of sin.

[seguidordejesus]

I could never understand why God would send someone to hell for an ageless amount of time for only a lifetime worth of sin.

I hope you´re right :D

[Sherri]

I now believe in the annialation of the dead.I read the website, but I just don't believe it. However, I HOPE you're right. It would make me feel alot better about lost people dying.
However, I still just don't see it. It sounds to me like he's just trying to explain away scriptures to meet his own viewpoint.

[JamDat]

I could never understand why God would send someone to hell for an ageless amount of time for only a lifetime worth of sin.

How good do you think you are?

[JamDat]

Where there's smoke there's fire.

[Truthseeker]

It's not what we think he would do but what he said he would do that counts.

[Michael The Disciple]

I believe the wicked will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. That does not take away the fear of God. In the very context of Jesus teaching that the souls of the wicked shall be destroyed in Gehenna he is telling us we ought to fear God.

10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt. 10:28

So Jesus taught to fear God. He also taught souls will be destroyed just like bodies-IN HELL.

[BrotherEastman]

[QUOTE=JamDat;1104546]How good do you think you are?[/QUOTE

God is good enough to pay the death penalty for me on the cross. I've repented of my sins so I have eternal life to look forward to. Not to die a second death.

[BrotherEastman]

I believe the wicked will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. That does not take away the fear of God. In the very context of Jesus teaching that the souls of the wicked shall be destroyed in Gehenna he is telling us we ought to fear God.

10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt. 10:28

So Jesus taught to fear God. He also taught souls will be destroyed just like bodies-IN HELL.

Exactly!!!!

[BrotherEastman]

It's not what we think he would do but what he said he would do that counts.

What did He say he would do that hasn't already been explained on the website. The man makes too much sense for me to dismiss his explanation of hell according to scripture.

[BrotherEastman]

the idea that hell is for immortal souls that were wicked is extra-biblical. that is why the soul that sinneth shall DIE.

[BrotherEastman]

I'm beginning to wonder how many of you are actually looking to the website. lol

[JamDat]

God is good enough to pay the death penalty for me on the cross. I've repented of my sins so I have eternal life to look forward to. Not to die a second death.

What do you deserve for your lifetime of sin? I understand that you've repented, but I'm talking about what you deserve.

Do you think that for your blasphemy, lieing, hatred, unthankfulness, coveting, not honoring parents, murderings, stealing, rebellion, and not giving God thanks in everything, all these sins committed so many times that you couldn't count them and against the most High, Supreme, Righteous, Holy God that you should just be snuffed out as a punishment. Wouldn't that be letting you off easy?

[JamDat]

I'm beginning to wonder how many of you are actually looking to the website. lol

I did and I read the part about their worm never dieth. Cute except that fires can and do burn for many years. They say in Australia that a coal fire has burned for 5,000 years.

[JamDat]

the idea that hell is for immortal souls that were wicked is extra-biblical. that is why the soul that sinneth shall DIE.

Will the devil be there forever?

[Michael The Disciple]

What do you deserve for your lifetime of sin? I understand that you've repented, but I'm talking about what you deserve.

Do you think that for your blasphemy, lieing, hatred, unthankfulness, coveting, not honoring parents, murderings, stealing, rebellion, and not giving God thanks in everything, all these sins committed so many times that you couldn't count them and against the most High, Supreme, Righteous, Holy God that you should just be snuffed out as a punishment. Wouldn't that be letting you off easy?

Paul tells us EXACTLY what one deserves for living in sin.


1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. Romans 1:29-32

They are worthy of death. Thats what Paul said.


He says it again.



6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:22-23


Hmmmm looks like he yet says it AGAIN!

8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Romans 8:13

[Michael The Disciple]

Will the devil be there forever?

We learn more about the devil here than anywhere else in scripture.

28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. Ezekiel 28:12-19

And if you think this is not the devil where else in scripture have we learned the things we teach about him?

Verse 16 YHWH says he will destroy him.

Verse 19 YHWH says he will never BE any more.

[Steve Epley]

This error will NOT shorten Hell 2 seconds nor cool it down. Keep on going and you will join Carlton Pearson.

[houston]

This error will NOT shorten Hell 2 seconds nor cool it down. Keep on going and you will join Carlton Pearson.

They're not even related.

[kclee4jc]

And the smoke of their torment shall ascend up forever and ever????

[Truthseeker]

And the smoke of their torment shall ascend up forever and ever????

Forever used in bible doesn't always mean what we use forever for. Jude speaks of eternal fire of sodom and G, but fire not burning anymore.

[Truthseeker]

This error will NOT shorten Hell 2 seconds nor cool it down. Keep on going and you will join Carlton Pearson.

Not all that don't believe in hell believe all will go to heaven.

[Steve Epley]

They're not even related.

We will see.

[SRM]

It is really simple..the opposite of eternal life is...........To say one goes to hell and is being tormented is a form of eternal life WHICH is a promise to believers ONLY..think about it..I think the unsaved just dies period,we are born dead already that is alienation from God,that is why we need to be "born again" to receive life from the dead..Adam was not the first person to die,Abel was.Jesus did not come to redeem the death of Abel :)..

[JamDat]

We learn more about the devil here than anywhere else in scripture.

28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. Ezekiel 28:12-19

And if you think this is not the devil where else in scripture have we learned the things we teach about him?

Verse 16 YHWH says he will destroy him.

Verse 19 YHWH says he will never BE any more.

Rev 20:7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The lake of fire for the second death is a place of torment day and night for ever and just in case you didn't understand for ever in verse 10 the first time, it gets repeated. Tie that in with the rest of the bible and we get a clear picture.

I know it's hard to think that God could be so "cruel," but He's not. He gives warning after warning and yet mankind hardens his heart. The wrath of God is very real and if Jesus Christ the spotless Lamb of God had the wrath poured out on Him, then woe to you who have not repented.

[Michael The Disciple]

Rev 20:7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The lake of fire for the second death is a place of torment day and night for ever and just in case you didn't understand for ever in verse 10 the first time, it gets repeated. Tie that in with the rest of the bible and we get a clear picture.

I know it's hard to think that God could be so "cruel," but He's not. He gives warning after warning and yet mankind hardens his heart. The wrath of God is very real and if Jesus Christ the spotless Lamb of God had the wrath poured out on Him, then woe to you who have not repented.

This only proves that forever does not always mean what we think of as forever. Ezekiel shows us the devil will be destroyed and be no more.

Forever can be as short as 3 days in the Hebrew.

I taught eternal torment myself for 16 years. When I looked at it with the Biblical foundation that THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH the scriptures began to open up.

The wrath of God is very real. Unfortunately not many believe in it proved by the fact they think they can sin every day and escape it. Those who continue in sin will be thrown into the Lake Of Fire even those who think they are Christians.

[Norman]

What exactly is death? Is it really an ending of existence, or a separation? Some people say natural death is separation of the body from the soul, and spiritual death is separation from God.

[Michael The Disciple]

What exactly is death? Is it really an ending of existence, or a separation? Some people say natural death is separation of the body from the soul, and spiritual death is separation from God.


Death is the opposite of life. When we die we do not have life.

[Arphaxad]

Death is the opposite of life. When we die we do not have life.

That makes death the absence of life, not the opposite.

:doggyrun

[JamDat]

This only proves that forever does not always mean what we think of as forever. Ezekiel shows us the devil will be destroyed and be no more.

Forever can be as short as 3 days in the Hebrew.

I taught eternal torment myself for 16 years. When I looked at it with the Biblical foundation that THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH the scriptures began to open up.

The wrath of God is very real. Unfortunately not many believe in it proved by the fact they think they can sin every day and escape it. Those who continue in sin will be thrown into the Lake Of Fire even those who think they are Christians.

Honestly it shows that the bible is right and others are changing the definitions of words. I don't expect to change minds, but I do want people who may be weak concerning hell and for ever to see what the bible really says.

[JamDat]

Jesus took on the full wrath of God which was our punishment. Think about that for a moment. Jesus did not escape punishment and Jesus did not cease to exist after the punishment, but did live.

Mankind also will not escape punishment by being extinguished the way some describe it. They will live in death being tormented day and night for ever and some who are tormented will have their smoke arise in the presence of the Lamb for ever and ever. Where there is smoke there is fire.

[Michael The Disciple]

Jesus took on the full wrath of God which was our punishment. Think about that for a moment. Jesus did not escape punishment and Jesus did not cease to exist after the punishment, but did live.

Mankind also will not escape punishment by being extinguished the way some describe it. They will live in death being tormented day and night for ever and some who are tormented will have their smoke arise in the presence of the Lamb for ever and ever. Where there is smoke there is fire.

If eternity in Hell was our punishment Jesus did not suffer that for us.

Jesus DIED for our sins. That was our punishment. Then he rose again.

[Dagwood]

This error will NOT shorten Hell 2 seconds nor cool it down. Keep on going and you will join Carlton Pearson.

They're not even related.

We will see.

So, Steve Epley, you've insinuated Carlton Pearson is already bound for Hell? You may as well throw all of our names on your list as well, whether we have the same ideology as him or not -- several things can send us to Hell, not just ideology.

[JamDat]

If eternity in Hell was our punishment Jesus did not suffer that for us.

Jesus DIED for our sins. That was our punishment. Then he rose again.

Of course He died. When He was in the garden and asked "let this cup pass from me" it wasn't because He was afraid of the cross. Many men had been beat and crucified. Men get crucified even today willingly. Jesus even knew death would come, but that wasn't the cup.

What was in that cup that made Jesus physically in agony and made Him sweat as great drops of blood? What affected Him so much that an angel had to come and strengthen Him while in the garden?

Jesus knowing that it is appointed to every man to die once wasn't afraid of that and of course Jesus wasn't afraid of the judgment that comes after a man dies.

Jesus also knew Isa 53 and what wrath was about to be poured out on Him.

You're punishment is not death of the flesh, but it is a consequence of sin. If you've repented and Jesus has saved you, you still will die in the flesh. So if like you say Jesus bore our punishment which is death then none are saved.

The wrath of God is the punishment for the unrepented. Jesus didn't rescue you from annihilation, but from damnation.

[BrotherEastman]

If eternity in Hell was our punishment Jesus did not suffer that for us.

Jesus DIED for our sins. That was our punishment. Then he rose again.

excellent point I never thought of it that way.

[crakjak]

Jesus took on the full wrath of God which was our punishment. Think about that for a moment. Jesus did not escape punishment and Jesus did not cease to exist after the punishment, but did live.

Mankind also will not escape punishment by being extinguished the way some describe it. They will live in death being tormented day and night for ever and some who are tormented will have their smoke arise in the presence of the Lamb for ever and ever. Where there is smoke there is fire.

Your two statements are so contradictory!!

If Jesus took the FULL wrath of God, how is it that God is still FULL of wrath toward sinners??? If Jesus paid the price, why are feeble, miserable, broken humans required to pay again???? Does God add insult to injury???

Is that what you would do with a son or daughter that got caught up in drugs and addiction, and died without getting set free????

Your theology makes God out to be a failure as a Creator and a Savior.

[Orthodoxy]

Based on Scripture, I have to say that I lean toward eternal conscious punishment, rather than annihilation. But eternal torment is a terrible thought, and should cause us to tremble in reverence. Here is an excerpt from an article by Randy Alcorn. Read the whole article here (http://www.epm.org/resources/2011/Mar/15/hell-eternal-sovereign-justice/).

ANNIHILATION

The Bible teaches Hell is a place of eternal punishment, not annihilation.

Jesus said, “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life” (Matthew 25:46). Here in the same sentence, Christ uses the word “eternal” (aionos) to describe the duration of both Heaven and Hell. Thus, according to our Lord, if some will consciously experience Heaven forever, then some must consciously experience Hell forever.

Despite the clarity of Matthew 25:46, even some evangelical Christians have affirmed that upon dying, or at the final judgment, those without Christ will cease to exist. Clark Pinnock writes, “It’s time for evangelicals to come out and say that the biblical and morally appropriate doctrine of Hell is annihilation, not everlasting torment.”[7] Pinnock makes a revealing statement:

I was led to question the traditional belief in everlasting conscious torment because of moral revulsion and broader theological considerations, not first of all on scriptural grounds. It just does not make any sense to say that a God of love will torture people forever for sins done in the context of a finite life.[8]

Note that Pinnock admits he reached his conclusions about annihilation “not first of all on scriptural grounds.” John Stott wrote about eternal conscious torment, “Emotionally, I find the concept intolerable and do not understand how people can live with it without either cauterizing their feelings or cracking under the strain.... Scripture points in the direction of annihilation.”[9]

But would John Stott, whom I greatly respect and who is an advocate of the inspiration and authority of Scripture, have ever said Scripture points toward annihilation if it were not for the emotional strain put upon him by the passages that clearly appear to teach everlasting punishment?

Revelation 20:10 says not only that Satan, but also the beast and the false prophet, “will be tormented for ever and ever.” Revelation 19:20 shows the beast and false prophet are humans, put in Hell a thousand years earlier. Hence, we at least know that Hell for humans cannot mean immediate annihilation at death.

The most graphic New Testament statement of the eternal suffering of the unrepentant says simply, “The smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night” (Revelation 14:11). It’s hard to imagine a more emphatic affirmation of eternal punishment.

If we are going to discard the doctrine of eternal punishment because it feels profoundly unpleasant to us, then it seems fair to ask what other biblical teachings we will also reject, because they too don’t square with what we feel. And if we do this, are we not replacing the authority of Scripture with the authority of our feelings, or our limited understanding?

Annihilation makes no sense in light of Revelation 20.

One popular annihilationist position maintains that unbelievers cease to exist when they die. But if they no longer exist, then how can they be raised to stand at the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20? Would God re-create them to stand before him in judgment? After this judgment, Revelation 20 says they will be cast into the lake of fire. Would this be a second annihilation?

Another view states that unbelievers are destroyed not at death, but sometime later. They suffer some punishment appropriate to their offenses (as the rich man experiences in Luke 16), some shorter and some longer, then are snuffed out of existence.

But as we’ve seen, two human beings, the antichrist and the false prophet, will be thrown into the lake of fire after a thousand years of suffering. If it is wrong for punishment to last forever, wouldn’t it seem wrong to last over a thousand years? If there’s an eventual end to people’s suffering in Hell, where is that indicated in Scripture? Why Christ’s emphasis on “eternal punishment” and fire that isn’t quenched and a worm that doesn’t die?

People believe in annihilation because it doesn’t seem nearly so bad as eternity in Hell. The rich man of Luke 16 does not cease to exist when he dies. But will he one day cease to exist? If so, when he begs for relief, wouldn’t we expect Abraham to say, “When your sins are paid for, then you will no longer suffer”? But Abraham offers him no hope for relief.

Annihilation is an attractive teaching compared to the alternative—I would gladly embrace it, were it taught in Scripture. But though I’ve tried, I just can’t find it there.

Annihilation would not satisfy God’s justice and solve the problem of evil.

Do you believe that Stalin, Pol Pot, and Idi Amin got their just punishment in this life? Do you think the life imprisonment of Charles Manson—in which he receives food, clothes, reading material, television privileges, and protection from other inmates—supplies full justice for his arrogant, unrepentant slaughter of innocent human beings? Would eternal nonexistence be a just punishment for such men? In what sense does an annihilated person, who by definition experiences nothing, experience any punishment at all?

Can you imagine God saying to Hitler, Stalin, and Mao at the final judgment, “For all your evil rebellion against me and your unspeakable crimes against humanity, your punishment is to no longer be conscious”? The “pain” of nonexistence is no pain at all. To cease to exist is to not be held accountable for sin. How could God satisfy his justice if he responded to despicable sins against himself and humanity by merely flicking a switch into nothingness?

Annihilation is no solution to the injustice of evil and suffering. If it were true, annihilation might itself raise a serious moral problem, for it suggests that our sins are not so grievous and the consequences for committing them are painless, or at worst exist only for a limited time.

If, as the Bible teaches, Christ’s redemptive work is so magnificent that it delivers us from an eternal Hell, then it should elicit maximum worship from us. But if it delivers us only from nonexistence—which is exactly the end atheists, naturalists, and materialists believe in—then we may feel grateful to God for what we are rescued to, Heaven, but not so grateful for what he rescued us from, mere nonexistence.

Although the doctrine of annihilation continues to gain ground among believers, Christians must realize that embracing this doctrine minimizes, or worse, eliminates altogether the horrors of Hell. This doctrine in its most popular form merely confirms what most unbelievers already think, that their lives will end at death, and therefore there’s nothing to be concerned about. In contrast, the Bible speaks of an eternal Hell as something that should motivate unbelievers to turn to God, and motivate believers to share the gospel with urgency.



People commonly ask, “Why would God inflict infinite punishment for finite sins? Isn’t that disproportionate punishment and therefore unjust?”

Scripture nowhere teaches infinite punishment; rather, it teaches punishment proportionate to the evil committed. The confusion comes in mistaking eternal for infinite. No one will bear in Hell an infinite number of offenses; they will bear only the sins they have committed (see Revelation 20:12–13).

The length of time spent committing a crime does not determine the length of the sentence for that crime. It may take five seconds to murder a child, but five seconds of punishment would hardly bring appropriate justice. Crimes committed against an infinitely holy God cannot be paid for in finite measures of time.

John Piper, agreeing with the viewpoint of Jonathan Edwards, says, “The length of your sin isn’t what makes the length of suffering just, it’s the height of your sin that makes the length of the suffering just.”[12]

[crakjak]

No one is saved by their own desert, nor by their on works, it is the grace of God. No man can come except he be drawn.

By John Piper's and Jonathan Edward's theology, God is partial and guarantees that the vast majority are lost. The Savior of only a few, not of all men, nor of the world.

[Orthodoxy]

By John Piper's and Jonathan Edward's theology, God is partial and guarantees that the vast majority are lost. The Savior of only a few, not of all men, nor of the world.

Are you a universalist?

[crakjak]

Are you a universalist?

I want to know God, as He really is, not only in the traditions of men.

Do I believe God will succeed in the redemption of HIS creation? Yes, and He will remove all evil and wickedness in the process. "...He makes ALL things new..."

[Aquila]

One thing for sure threat of a burning hell hasn't kept people from sinning.

LOL

That's silly. The doctrine of Hell isn't supposed to keep people from sinning.

"You better do right or you'll go to Hell!" I've heard it preached like that, but that's stupid.

People sin because of the sinful nature that exists in the flesh. Many don't understand "nature". It's in man's fallen "nature" to sin... just like it's in a fish's "nature" to swim. Just like it's in a hog's nature to wallow in filth. Try telling a hog, "Don't wallow in that filth... or you'll go to Hell!" Even if he could understand you... eventually... when you're not looking... he'd wallow in filth. Trying telling a fish not to swim. lol

What keeps people from sinning? Union with Christ through the Holy Ghost and the reckoning of one's very identity in Christ alone. Do you realize that the Holy Ghost was given to you to... make you one with God through Christ? To make you a partaker of the divine nature of God Himself? The very lifeforce of Christ is flowing in your human spirit. The very "mind of Christ" is to be cultivated through prayer, study, and meditation. It is the "mind of Christ" that is to replace that old carnal mind of the flesh. It's the Father's desire to conform all His children into the image and likeness of JESUS. Not to have them perform their religious duty of "doing right" and "not sinning". That's a self derrived righteousness. Doing right and not sinning isn't the result of "doing" something. It's the result of "BEING" something... a partaker in the very nature and identity of Jesus. Becoming a branch of the Vine... a living extension of Jesus Himself. We are called to "become Jesus" through our union with the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Christ). It's not about "doing" it's about "being". It's about our core IDENTITY.

When one truly reckons themselves as being in union with God and as a living extention of Jesus Himself that is being conformed into the very image and likeness of Christ... it's about "being" like Jesus... not just "doing" like Jesus.

Hell is simply a truth that affirms God's justice and judgment against wickedness. It's a warning. Those who do not partake in the divine nature and therefore are not conformed into the image of Christ will suffer eternal alienation from God.

[Nitehawk013]

Ezekiel does make it clear that the King of Tyre/Tyrus will be destroyed/annihilated, but that isn't talking about Satan. The text makes it clear it is talking about a king. Just as Isaiah does when it references the king of Babylon and we mistakenly try to say it is Satan.

Just because the writer uses poetic language to describe just how beautifula nd great the man was, it doesn't mean he was Satan. If you assume the King of Tyre was Satan due to lofty descriptions, why not assume the same about the Pharoah described in equally lofty ways in another chapter?

[Aquila]

I could never understand why God would send someone to hell for an ageless amount of time for only a lifetime worth of sin.

Because the seriousness of a crime is predicated upon the nature and office of the offended.

For example, if one gets in a bar fight and punches a man it's a misdomeanor assult charge, IF the man wants to press charges. However, if that same man punched the President of the United States or a police officer... it's a felony.

God by nature is infinitely and eternally holy. God is also infinitely and eternally absolute in His authority. Any crime against God's creation or God's nature is a crime of an infinite and eternal nature. Therefore, justice can only be served if the punishment is infinite and eternal also.

Thus eternal torments in Hell is the only form of justice deserved. If Hell isn't eternal it is an attack on the very nature of God. Is God eternal? Yes. Then punishment must be eternal. If punishment isn't eternal... it's a claim that God isn't eternal in His Majesty.

Also... man isn't sent to Hell for the things they do on earth. All men were condemned in Adam. We as a whole were CONDEMNED as a race as a result of Adam's sin. The condemnation was declared. The judgment only affirms God's condemnation by judging our works on earth. If any angel or being in creation had any doubts regarding God's just condemnation of man... the judgment of our deeds on earth prove that man is absolutely rotten and depraved to the core. However... God is loving and doesn't desire that all of mankind be lost. So God made a way. God chose to punish Jesus in the place of all who would come to Him and believe Him. Now God's wrath and anger are satisfied. The Bible tells us that He who knew no sin BECAME sin itself.... that we might BECOME the righteousness of God. The sin that Jesus became was sin in total. My sin, your sin, everyone's sin. And so God punished YOUR sin and MY sin... in Christ on the cross. It's been paid for in full. To condemn us would be double jeapardy. The debt's been paid. Now, we freely receive Christ's imputed righteousness by faith. We stand holy and sinless before God (Justified). That's how we were able to receive the Holy Ghost. Now, through the power of the Holy Ghost we are united with God through Christ, and God is shaping our very being into the image and likeness of Christ as we surrender to His perfect will in our lives (Sanctification). Having received Jesus, who is our life, we have eternal life. Because He is eternal.... and we live and remain for as long as He does. We are but branches on the Vine... extensions of Jesus.

God is eternal.
Punishment is eternal.
Christ's propitiatory work is eternal.
Life in Christ is eternal.

[Michael The Disciple]

Jesus said, “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life” (Matthew 25:46). Here in the same sentence, Christ uses the word “eternal” (aionos) to describe the duration of both Heaven and Hell. Thus, according to our Lord, if some will consciously experience Heaven forever, then some must consciously experience Hell forever.

The punishment of the wicked is ETERNAL JUDGMENT. When they die in the Lake Of Fire they are dead. They will never live again. They have been destroyed with no hope of life again.

Peter never taught one word about burning and torment without end. Rather he mentioned the destruction of evil men.

2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 2 Peter 2:12

2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 2 Peter 2:17

He agrees with the scriptures. The wicked will be destroyed and pass into the darkness of death.

Paul never mentioned burning without end in the Lake Of Fire once. Rather he taught the wicked would face destruction.

1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2 Thess. 1:9

Apostle James does not mention anything about burning that never ends. Rather he warns about the DEATH OF A SOUL.

5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:20

So the "apostles doctrine" was simply passing on what Jesus taught.

10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt. 10:28

[NotforSale]

Eternal Damnation/Punishment/Torment is the most imbalanced, Scriptural disaster within the Christian Faith. Numerous problems follow the concept of Humans burning in flames for Eternity.

1. No one has been there. It is a Spectral World/Dimension, used to manipulate the weak in conscience by fear.

2. Old and New Testaments completely clash. Eternal Punishment is not in the Old Testament, and, Jewish teachings of Old do not support any such place.

3. Eternal torture is found prior to the New Testament in heathen Religions, long before Christianity existed, including Rome, where the Catholic Church dominated the influence of modern Christendom and the production of the King James Bible.

4. It is thoroughly confirmed, translating from Ancient Languages can easily tilt towards the specific Culture/Faith responsible for the "Bible" in hand. Words like, "Forever" are misused, leaving readers at the mercy of dogmas that lead to false doctrine and ideas that cannot be proven.

5. What makes one good enough to go to Heaven? What makes one bad enough to go to Hell for Eternity, burning in flames without relief? Since there is no way to truly answer this question, Hell becomes the "Tool" of Religious tyrants who play with the scale that cannot be calibrated.

6. What Father would send his children to a place where the screams of agony never cease? If God is our Father, the act of casting His wayward Children into such an abyss is beyond human comprehension. The only way to understand this is to somehow hate our own children and loved ones.

7. God is Love. You can slice it, dice it, and put it in a blender, but the bottom line is, God is Love. His Love was proven on Calvary, where forgiveness for a lost World was made complete. Jesus looked down and said, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do”. We will all need to hear these words when we die.

8. Age of accountability: this is another valid misnomer, where we are left with nothing but guess work.

9. People who have never heard the Gospel of Christianity: this is another catastrophic ocean of guessing.

10. Why would God allow the Human Race to propagate since the beginning if God knew 99.9% of His Creation would burn in unending flames? This, AFF, makes absolutely no sense.

11. Many Apostolic/Oneness people believe, unless you follow our “Plan” of Salvation, you will not make Heaven. This is the exact dogma of countless, Christian Denominations. From Catholics to the Puritans, Hellfire is used to persuade people to follow, and stay, within a certain Faith.

[Michael The Disciple]

Jesus Christ thought that fear was a good motivation for men to repent and get right with God.

10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt. 10:28

The Jesus of the Bible warned men about destruction in Gehenna Fire. The Jesus of scripture is different than the one men portray nowadays in many ways.

[Nitehawk013]

So since we don't like the idea of eternal hell fire...it just can't be true?

[NotforSale]

So since we don't like the idea of eternal hell fire...it just can't be true?

I don't think it's a matter of "Not Liking" the idea. It's a matter of "Validating" the idea.

[Nitehawk013]

But in the validating, if you choose to explain away any aspect you don't like...then are you really validating anything?

Forever didn't really mean forever. Bible is corrupted by the roman catholics. etc etc.

[BrotherEastman]

excerpt taken from website:

Undying, Immortal Soul?
Doesn't the Bible speak of the "undying," "immortal" soul?

No, the undying, immortal soul is not mentioned in the Bible. The word "immortal" is found only once in the Bible, and it is in reference to God (1 Timothy 1:17).


Since man is made in the image of God and God is immortal isn't man then also immortal?

Why should only one of God's attributes, that of immortality, be singled out for comparison? God is all-powerful. Does it therefore follow that man, made in the image of God, is also all-powerful? God is all-wise. Is man therefore possessed of boundless wisdom, because made in God’s image?

The Bible uses the word “immortality” only five times, and the word “immortal” only once. In this lone instance the term is applied to God: “Eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God.” 1 Tim. 1:17. The five references that contain the word “immortality” are as follows:

Romans 2:7. In this text the Christian is exhorted to “seek” for immortality. Why should he seek for it if he already possesses it? In this same book of Romans, Paul quotes the prophet Elijah as saying of his enemies, “They seek my life.” We understand from this that the prophet’s enemies did not yet have his life in their hands. Therefore, when we are exhorted to seek for immortality, for a life that knows no end, we must conclude that we do not now possess such a life.

2 Timothy 1:10. Here we learn that Christ “brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.” The only deduction from this is that so far from immortality’s being a natural possession of all men, it is one of the good things made possible through the gospel. Paul wrote, “The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ.” Rom. 6:23. Why would we need this gift if we already had undying souls?

1 Corinthians 15:53. This passage tells when we shall receive immortality. The time is “at the last trump.” Then “this mortal must put on immortality.” Why should the apostle Paul speak of our putting on immortality at a future date if we already possess it?

1 Corinthians 15:54. This verse simply adds the thought that when “this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

1 Timothy 6:16. Here we learn that God “only hath immortality.” This final text settles the matter as conclusively as words could possibly do, and explains fully why we are exhorted to “seek” immortality, and why we are told that immortality is something that is to be “put on” “at the last trump.”

Not only do we learn from these texts that we do not have immortality, but also we are told that God alone has it.

There are other texts which contain in the original Greek the same word that is translated “immortal” or “immortality” in the six texts we have just considered. But these additional texts do not require us to change our conclusion; on the contrary they strengthen it. Take, for example, Romans 1:23, where Paul, speaking of the idolatrous action of the heathen, says that they “changed the glory of the uncorruptible [immortal] God into an image made like to corruptible [mortal] man.” In the Greek, the word here translated “uncorruptible” is the same as that rendered “immortal” in 1 Timothy 1:17: “Eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God.” The Expositor’s Bible translates the passage thus: “Transmuted the glory of the immortal God in a semblance of the likeness of mortal man.” The uncorruptible, the immortal God is sharply contrasted with corruptible, mortal man.

We read in John 5:26 that the “Father hath life in himself,” and that He hath “given to the Son to have life in Himself.” But nowhere do we read that God gave to human beings to have life in themselves. That is why the Bible never speaks of man as immortal.

[Truthseeker]

IF you abbsolutely found there is no burning, would you still want to live righteous? I wonder how many I church would live different

[BrotherEastman]

another excerpt:

Death, Not Eternal Torment
hellfire.jpg The Bible tells us that "the wages of sin is" not eternal life in hellfire, but "death" (Romans 6:23), the same penalty God assured Adam and Eve would be theirs if they ate the forbidden fruit.

Ezekiel states clearly that "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4), and a plethora of other Bible verses and passages endorse this position. The prophet Malachi wrote that sinners would burn up as "stubble" and would become "ashes under the soles" of the feet of the redeemed (Malachi 4:1, 3). Even the final fate of Satan is explicitly pronounced in Ezekiel 28:18, where the Bible says that the enemy of souls will be reduced to ashes upon the "earth."

Compare that with Psalm 37:10 ("For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be"), Psalm 68:2 ("as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God"), and other similar verses. Soon you get a clear picture that the purpose of the fires of hell is to eradicate sin and to expunge the universe of its awful presence.

Interestingly, it was the devil who was first to suggest that sinners would not die (Genesis 3: 4). A hell where sinners never perish would prove the devil right and would make God, who told Eve she would "surely die" as a result of transgression (Genesis 2:17), a liar.

[BrotherEastman]

IF you abbsolutely found there is no burning, would you still want to live righteous? I wonder how many I church would live different

I would, definately. I want eternal life, not be destroyed by hellfire

[Truthseeker]

I would, definately. I want eternal life, not be destroyed by hellfire

If you new for sure no matter what you did you woud be saved, what kind of effect you think that would have on your life?

[Amanah]

If you new for sure no matter what you did you woud be saved, what kind of effect you think that would have on your life?

Churches would have to focus on the benefits of living for God in the present, versus eternal rewards.

Sin has many adverse effects in this life, it would still be advantageous to live for God.

There is still much to be done, we could focus more on humanitarian efforts.

[NotforSale]

But in the validating, if you choose to explain away any aspect you don't like...then are you really validating anything?

Forever didn't really mean forever. Bible is corrupted by the roman catholics. etc etc.

Do you believe this is possible?

I did specify the version; King James.

Does this verse in Exodus 21:6 mean forever (without end)?

Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

[BrotherEastman]

If you new for sure no matter what you did you woud be saved, what kind of effect you think that would have on your life?

He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. I don't think I would do anything different than I have already done. I still don't want to go to hell even if I am wrong about annihilation. Does that answer your question?

[BrotherEastman]

Do you believe this is possible?

I did specify the version; King James.

Does this verse in Exodus 21:6 mean forever (without end)?

Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

forever here is only a lifetime. I wish people would get it.

[Amanah]

forever here is only a lifetime. I wish people would get it.

you've only been preaching this for one day, it may take longer then that for you to get converts :tease

[houston]

smuch for whaling and nashing of teeth...

[Michael The Disciple]

IF you abbsolutely found there is no burning, would you still want to live righteous? I wonder how many I church would live different

If the question was if there was no resurrection of the dead I would eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die. I like Paul would not live like I live now.

15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 1 Cor. 15:32

But since God is real and he sets before us life or death I chose life.

[kclee4jc]

I must say that I am quite surprised that MTD takes this position.

[houston]

I must say that I am quite surprised that MTD takes this position.

Why?

[Michael The Disciple]

Probably the main stumbling block for people to see this truth of eternal destrutction (annihilation) is Gods perception of time is not ours.

Forever in Hebrew means something like "to the horizon", like as far as the eye can see.

Jonah the Prophet confessed he went to Hell forever!


2:1 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
2:3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
2:4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
2:5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. Jonah 2:1-6

Yet Jesus telling the same story said he was there 3 days.

12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matt. 12:40

The difference is in this.

3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8

Between God and Jonah those 3 days were like forever! Like they would never end. Yet Jesus (who put Jonah there) later says it all happened in 3 days.

In the time of judgment we should consider with God one day is as a thousand years but a thousand years is as a day. Some may be in Gehenna a long, long time. Others may be destroyed in a day.

[Michael The Disciple]

smuch for whaling and nashing of teeth...

The first few minutes in Gehenna would bring that about. Or simply being raised from the dead to find out that the Bible was true and God is real. The thought that you COULD have gained eternal life/immortality and lived in the glory of God throughout the forevers.

Yet now you must look out on the burning Lake Of Fire and know you have been sentenced to eternal death. Yes wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[JamDat]

Your two statements are so contradictory!!

If Jesus took the FULL wrath of God, how is it that God is still FULL of wrath toward sinners??? If Jesus paid the price, why are feeble, miserable, broken humans required to pay again???? Does God add insult to injury???

Is that what you would do with a son or daughter that got caught up in drugs and addiction, and died without getting set free????

Your theology makes God out to be a failure as a Creator and a Savior.

Eh, so I didn't do the best here. I assumed others might know what I mean.

By full (not FULL) wrath of God I meant that Jesus was not spared of any of the punishment. Not that God depleted all His wrath.

By our punishment I meant those who have repented and had the blood of Jesus applied to them.

By mankind I meant those who have not repented.

Feeble, miserable, broken humans aren't required to pay again. If a person has repented then Jesus already paid for them. If a person has not repented then Jesus did not legally pay for them and they must pay.

Personally I feel this is why hell is for ever and ever. We can never do what Jesus did and that is to pay for our crimes. The punishment will last until our crime is paid for and since we could never pay for our crimes then the punishment will last for ever and ever.

Does God add insult to injury? No and God also doesn't send his children to hell. So that argument makes no sense to me unless you're suggesting that the unrepentant sinner is a child of God. Then you'd be just plain wrong according to the bible.

[BrotherEastman]

you've only been preaching this for one day, it may take longer then that for you to get converts :tease

LOL!

[JamDat]

Probably the main stumbling block for people to see this truth of eternal destrutction (annihilation) is Gods perception of time is not ours.

Forever in Hebrew means something like "to the horizon", like as far as the eye can see.

Jonah the Prophet confessed he went to Hell forever!


2:1 Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
2:3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
2:4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
2:5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. Jonah 2:1-6

Yet Jesus telling the same story said he was there 3 days.

12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matt. 12:40

The difference is in this.

3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 2 Peter 3:8

Between God and Jonah those 3 days were like forever! Like they would never end. Yet Jesus (who put Jonah there) later says it all happened in 3 days.

In the time of judgment we should consider with God one day is as a thousand years but a thousand years is as a day. Some may be in Gehenna a long, long time. Others may be destroyed in a day.

It seems like Jonah was describing his despair and had lost all hope. If he would have remained lost in hope he would have remained there for ever.

Jonah 2:7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.

Pretty neat when just a little bit more is read how it all comes into context.

[houston]

You're behind schedule, EASTMAN. I have believed this for a few yrs now. Have you embraced fulfilled eschatology? Apparently BEREAN puts you out of the apostolic faith. Welcome to the state of reprobation.

[BrotherEastman]

You're behind schedule, EASTMAN. I have believed this for a few yrs now. Have you embraced fulfilled eschatology? Apparently BEREAN puts you out of the apostolic faith. Welcome to the state of reprobation.

Guess I'll have to turn in my UPCI license now that I believe in the annihilation of the wicked.

[Truthseeker]

He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. I don't think I would do anything different than I have already done. I still don't want to go to hell even if I am wrong about annihilation. Does that answer your question?

That will suffice.:thumbsup I was really just addressing the mindset of hell as a deterrent. The "I better not steal cause I don't want to go hell" type mindset.

[houston]

That will suffice.:thumbsup I was really just addressing the mindset of hell as a deterrent. The "I better not steal cause I don't want to go hell" type mindset.

I don't want to steal because I love Jesus.

[BrotherEastman]

I don't want to steal because I love Jesus.

you and me both!!!!

[Steve Epley]

excerpt taken from website:

Undying, Immortal Soul?
Doesn't the Bible speak of the "undying," "immortal" soul?

No, the undying, immortal soul is not mentioned in the Bible. The word "immortal" is found only once in the Bible, and it is in reference to God (1 Timothy 1:17).


Since man is made in the image of God and God is immortal isn't man then also immortal?

Why should only one of God's attributes, that of immortality, be singled out for comparison? God is all-powerful. Does it therefore follow that man, made in the image of God, is also all-powerful? God is all-wise. Is man therefore possessed of boundless wisdom, because made in God’s image?

The Bible uses the word “immortality” only five times, and the word “immortal” only once. In this lone instance the term is applied to God: “Eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God.” 1 Tim. 1:17. The five references that contain the word “immortality” are as follows:

Romans 2:7. In this text the Christian is exhorted to “seek” for immortality. Why should he seek for it if he already possesses it? In this same book of Romans, Paul quotes the prophet Elijah as saying of his enemies, “They seek my life.” We understand from this that the prophet’s enemies did not yet have his life in their hands. Therefore, when we are exhorted to seek for immortality, for a life that knows no end, we must conclude that we do not now possess such a life.

2 Timothy 1:10. Here we learn that Christ “brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.” The only deduction from this is that so far from immortality’s being a natural possession of all men, it is one of the good things made possible through the gospel. Paul wrote, “The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ.” Rom. 6:23. Why would we need this gift if we already had undying souls?

1 Corinthians 15:53. This passage tells when we shall receive immortality. The time is “at the last trump.” Then “this mortal must put on immortality.” Why should the apostle Paul speak of our putting on immortality at a future date if we already possess it?

1 Corinthians 15:54. This verse simply adds the thought that when “this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

1 Timothy 6:16. Here we learn that God “only hath immortality.” This final text settles the matter as conclusively as words could possibly do, and explains fully why we are exhorted to “seek” immortality, and why we are told that immortality is something that is to be “put on” “at the last trump.”

Not only do we learn from these texts that we do not have immortality, but also we are told that God alone has it.

There are other texts which contain in the original Greek the same word that is translated “immortal” or “immortality” in the six texts we have just considered. But these additional texts do not require us to change our conclusion; on the contrary they strengthen it. Take, for example, Romans 1:23, where Paul, speaking of the idolatrous action of the heathen, says that they “changed the glory of the uncorruptible [immortal] God into an image made like to corruptible [mortal] man.” In the Greek, the word here translated “uncorruptible” is the same as that rendered “immortal” in 1 Timothy 1:17: “Eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God.” The Expositor’s Bible translates the passage thus: “Transmuted the glory of the immortal God in a semblance of the likeness of mortal man.” The uncorruptible, the immortal God is sharply contrasted with corruptible, mortal man.

We read in John 5:26 that the “Father hath life in himself,” and that He hath “given to the Son to have life in Himself.” But nowhere do we read that God gave to human beings to have life in themselves. That is why the Bible never speaks of man as immortal.

I do not believe in the 'immortal soul' immortality is only given to the righteous. However GOD said they would be tormented forever and they will be NOT because they have an immortal soul but because God will cause them to suffer for eternity.

[Steve Epley]

Do you believe this is possible?

I did specify the version; King James.

Does this verse in Exodus 21:6 mean forever (without end)?

Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Forever and everlasting is determined by the context and in the context of eternal judgment then if eternal life is without an end then eternal punishment is without an end. Very simple.

[Steve Epley]

You're behind schedule, EASTMAN. I have believed this for a few yrs now. Have you embraced fulfilled eschatology? Apparently BEREAN puts you out of the apostolic faith. Welcome to the state of reprobation.
BOTH doctrine are false and absurd.

[Steve Epley]

Guess I'll have to turn in my UPCI license now that I believe in the annihilation of the wicked.

From the beginning of the merger there were men who taught the annihilation of the wicked.

[Michael The Disciple]

Forever and everlasting is determined by the context and in the context of eternal judgment then if eternal life is without an end then eternal punishment is without an end. Very simple.

Annihilation of the wicked IS eternal punishment. The wicked are dead with no hope of ever living again. It is permanent.

[Steve Epley]

Annihilation of the wicked IS eternal punishment. The wicked are dead with no hope of ever living again. It is permanent.

They are tormented forever.

[Sister Alvear]

I believe I first heard of this by Bro. Stairs if not mistaken...however I cannot really see it... Hope you all are right... Why would smoke accend forever and forever if no one was there ...I have no desire to see anyone suffer but it seems to me the Bible teaches forever...

[crakjak]

Because the seriousness of a crime is predicated upon the nature and office of the offended.

For example, if one gets in a bar fight and punches a man it's a misdomeanor assult charge, IF the man wants to press charges. However, if that same man punched the President of the United States or a police officer... it's a felony.

God by nature is infinitely and eternally holy. God is also infinitely and eternally absolute in His authority. Any crime against God's creation or God's nature is a crime of an infinite and eternal nature. Therefore, justice can only be served if the punishment is infinite and eternal also.

Thus eternal torments in Hell is the only form of justice deserved. If Hell isn't eternal it is an attack on the very nature of God. Is God eternal? Yes. Then punishment must be eternal. If punishment isn't eternal... it's a claim that God isn't eternal in His Majesty.

Also... man isn't sent to Hell for the things they do on earth. All men were condemned in Adam. We as a whole were CONDEMNED as a race as a result of Adam's sin. The condemnation was declared. The judgment only affirms God's condemnation by judging our works on earth. If any angel or being in creation had any doubts regarding God's just condemnation of man... the judgment of our deeds on earth prove that man is absolutely rotten and depraved to the core. However... God is loving and doesn't desire that all of mankind be lost. So God made a way. God chose to punish Jesus in the place of all who would come to Him and believe Him. Now God's wrath and anger are satisfied. The Bible tells us that He who knew no sin BECAME sin itself.... that we might BECOME the righteousness of God. The sin that Jesus became was sin in total. My sin, your sin, everyone's sin. And so God punished YOUR sin and MY sin... in Christ on the cross. It's been paid for in full. To condemn us would be double jeapardy. The debt's been paid. Now, we freely receive Christ's imputed righteousness by faith. We stand holy and sinless before God (Justified). That's how we were able to receive the Holy Ghost. Now, through the power of the Holy Ghost we are united with God through Christ, and God is shaping our very being into the image and likeness of Christ as we surrender to His perfect will in our lives (Sanctification). Having received Jesus, who is our life, we have eternal life. Because He is eternal.... and we live and remain for as long as He does. We are but branches on the Vine... extensions of Jesus.

God is eternal.
Punishment is eternal.
Christ's propitiatory work is eternal.
Life in Christ is eternal.

Seems that the cure is at least as pervasive as the disease???? Adam's sin condemnd us ALL, but Christ's sacrifice doesn't cover ALL?

[Michael The Disciple]

Allow me to build a bit of foundation. We see in the gospels both Yeshua and John the Baptist preaching about punishment of fire for the wicked. The big question is where did they get the doctrine? If we can find their REFERENCE POINT we will understand their meaning. The last Prophet before Yeshua and John was MALACHI. I believe much of their doctrine in this matter is referenced back to him.

For behold the DAY cometh that shall BURN AS AN OVEN: and all the proud yea and all THAT DO WICKEDLY shall be STUBBLE: and the DAY that cometh shall BURN THEM UP saith the Lord of Hosts, that it shall leave them NEITHER ROOT NOR BRANCH. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of Righteousness arise with healing in his wings and you shall go forth and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked for they shall be ASHES UNDER THE SOLES OF YOUR FEET in the day that I shall do this saith the Lord of Hosts. MALACHI 4:1-3

Notice Malachi's emphasis is on THE DESTRUCTION OF THE WICKED. Keeping this in mind lets go to the gospels and visit the teaching of Yeshua and John.

And now also the ax is laid to the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire. John the Baptist in Matt.3:10

The enemy that sowed them is the devil: the harvest is the end of the world: and the reapers are the angels.
As therefore the TARES are gathered and BURNED IN THE FIRE so shall it be in the end of this world. Matt.13:39-40

So shall it be at the end of the world the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them INTO THE FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Matt.13:49-50

Whose fan is in his hand and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner, but THE CHAFF HE WILL BURN with fire unquenchable. John in Luke 3:17

Now my question is where did Yeshua and John get the concepts of the FURNACE OF FIRE? Was it not the same as Malachi's Fiery OVEN?
How about the concept of THE TARES and THE CHAFF? Is it not the same as Malachi's STUBBLE? If they are indeed referring back to Malachi his prophetic words carried the message of the DESTRUCTION OF THE WICKED as opposed to their never ending torment.

This harmonizes with what GOD had already declared to be the punishment of sin.

Behold all souls are mine, as the soul of the father so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul THAT SINNETH IT SHALL DIE. Ezekiel 18:4

If Yeshua and John were not referring back to Malachi, where was their reference point?

And fear not them which KILL the body but are not able to KILL the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY both SOUL AND BODY IN HELL. Matt.10:28

It was no doubt the destruction of the wicked in Malachi's OVEN Yeshua had in mind.

[Narrow Is The Way]

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

First of all, this was not a parable but that is an argument for another time.

Either way, he was called dead and he was tormented. Nuff said

If heaven is eternal, so is hell.

Spirits never die.

Sorry, you can't explain it away.

The fire is not quenched. Is it burning for no reason?

[Michael The Disciple]

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

First of all, this was not a parable but that is an argument for another time.

Either way, he was called dead and he was tormented. Nuff said

If heaven is eternal, so is hell.

Spirits never die.

Sorry, you can't explain it away.

The fire is not quenched. Is it burning for no reason?

Well some of us think it is a parable because it would contradict what the inspired writers of the Old Testament taught. When one dies we are taught they have no sense of conciousness.

146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:3-4

In reality at death one is unaware of his surroundings.

Confirmed:

9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecc. 9:5

Confirmed:

9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, (Sheol) whither thou goest. Ecc. 9:10

In reality there would have been no awareness of anything in Sheol/Hades.

But in a parable one could make things happen that normally would not to make a point.

Do trees talk? Do they have king trees and servant trees?

9:8 The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them; and they said unto the olive tree, Reign thou over us.
9:9 But the olive tree said unto them, Should I leave my fatness, wherewith by me they honor God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?
9:10 And the trees said to the fig tree, Come thou, and reign over us.
9:11 But the fig tree said unto them, Should I forsake my sweetness, and my good fruit, and go to be promoted over the trees?
9:12 Then said the trees unto the vine, Come thou, and reign over us.
9:13 And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?
9:14 Then said all the trees unto the bramble, Come thou, and reign over us. Judges 9:8-14

By the way where was God in Abrahams Bosom? He is never mentioned. The rich man prayed to who? Abraham. Luke 16:27.

I wonder where souls or spirits went before Abraham died and his bosom was available?

Where did Adam and Eve and Noahs spirits go before Abraham died and was living in immortality?

[houston]

MTD, do you believe in soul sleep?

[Michael The Disciple]

God gives us a principal in the Law of Moses.

26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. Lev. 26:18

He tells Israel if they disobey he will punish them sevenfold.

A few verses later:

26:27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
26:28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. Lev.26:27-28

So I cant find anywhere in the OT where God says he will punish them more than 7 times for their sins. Im certainly not trying to hold God from going beyond this but its something to consider.

If a man lived 70 years and died lost and God punished him (in Hell) 7 times more for his sins that would be 490 years. In Hell that would seem like an extremley long time to the one in torment.

Think of the difference in what we are saying. If forever means what most think God would be punishing men far, far more than this principal suggests. 490 years and 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000........+++ left to go.

Now I think God will allow men to suffer in the Lake some of them a very long time each man according to his sins. But however long that is the final outcome we know from both the Old and New Testaments.

Old Testament:

18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4

New Testament:

10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt. 10:28

Both Testaments agreethat wicked souls die.

The Lake Of Fire is the instrument God will use to accomplish this.

20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev. 20:14

The first death is likened to sleep in scripture. The second death is final. Once the soul dies in the Lake it passes into the blackness of darkness. Non existence.

2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 2 Peter 2:17

Jude calls this the blackness of darkness.

1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. Jude 1:12-13

The life of the sinner perishes.

Thats what the gospel of Jesus Christ is about. Offering us life instead of death.

3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:14-16

[Michael The Disciple]

MTD, do you believe in soul sleep?

Sleep is a metaphor for death in scripture because it is similar. When one dies they sleep the sleep of death until the resurrection.

Thats why the reurrection of the dead is mentioned as a foundation doctrine in Hebrews 6. But dying and going to Heaven apart from resurrection is not there.

[Michael The Disciple]

I believe I first heard of this by Bro. Stairs if not mistaken...however I cannot really see it... Hope you all are right... Why would smoke accend forever and forever if no one was there ...I have no desire to see anyone suffer but it seems to me the Bible teaches forever...

Remember that to the Prophet Jonah for ever meant 3 days. Jonah 2:6

For ever and forever will be relative to what God wants it to mean. At least several forevers had taken place already from the time of Adam until Christ.


For ever is Greek 165 in Strongs Concordance. The meaning of for ever is AN AGE.
How long is an age? It depends on context.

Paul wrote of the mystery of Gentiles being saved like this.

Even the mystery which hath been hid from AGES and from generations,but now is made manifest to his saints. Col.1:26

Now when Paul wrote this the world was about 4000 years old.

Yet he says the mystery was hidden to PAST AGES. So within that 4000 years were contained at least 2 if not more AGES or FOREVERS.

See? We think of forever in our understanding not that of scripture. We have Pauls testimony there has already been multiple "forevers".

[Truthseeker]

Forever and everlasting is determined by the context and in the context of eternal judgment then if eternal life is without an end then eternal punishment is without an end. Very simple.

One thought some bring up is that it doesn't say eternal punishing. If one is destroyed that punishment is forever.

[Truthseeker]

I believe I first heard of this by Bro. Stairs if not mistaken...however I cannot really see it... Hope you all are right... Why would smoke accend forever and forever if no one was there ...I have no desire to see anyone suffer but it seems to me the Bible teaches forever...

Forever used in bible doesn't always mean how we take forever.

[Truthseeker]

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

First of all, this was not a parable but that is an argument for another time.

Either way, he was called dead and he was tormented. Nuff said

If heaven is eternal, so is hell.

Spirits never die.

Sorry, you can't explain it away.

The fire is not quenched. Is it burning for no reason?

when someone dies what part of them goes to hell? you mention spirt, but does a spirit have a mouth, eyes, etc.....

if one was on fire being in great agony, would they be able to have a conversation? You really think a man burning in hell would only ask for a finger dipped in water?

[JamDat]

All these questions like do you really think this happened or does this word really mean this reminds me of this.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?”

My answer to all of those questions is yes I believe what God has told us through the bible.

[Truthseeker]

All these questions like do you really think this happened or does this word really mean this reminds me of this.

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?”

My answer to all of those questions is yes I believe what God has told us through the bible.

hard to get answers without questions. :thumbsup

[JamDat]

This is an example of how subtle the serpent can be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODUvw2McL8g


Now don't you just feel stupid for believing what the bible says?

[JamDat]

hard to get answers without questions. :thumbsup

It's the questioning of the answers given to us in the bible that makes me go :banghead

[Truthseeker]

It's the questioning of the answers given to us in the bible that makes me go :banghead

It's more of questioning intepretations of the bible. Pharisees thought they had answers from Gods word. Trinies do too. You think we can't be wrong on some things?

I have found that things I took literal are actualy symbolic. Mistakenly took meaning of words using todays understandingleading to wrong doctrine. For example the word world has diffferent meanings with one example: "end of the world" is refering to end of the age, not eathly world we live in. Simple stuff like this leads us to error on things.

[shag]

when someone dies what part of them goes to hell? you mention spirt, but does a spirit have a mouth, eyes, etc.....

if one was on fire being in great agony, would they be able to have a conversation? You really think a man burning in hell would only for a finger dipped in water?

I have wondered what u said my whole life.

The other thing I have also wondered as of late is, while thruout eons of eternity(future), God knowing that at that same time many are experiencing eternal life, never ceasing also are "people burning in hell being tortured in agonizing pain.....I'm wondered how/why that would bring satisfaction or self fullfillment as in victory .....forever without cease agony and torture.
Did I mention forever and ever.....
To me it seems that satisfaction would never be met.......

I don't really buy it, but I also have no intentions of chancing it either!

[Truthseeker]

I have wondered what u said my whole life.

The other thing I have also wondered as of late is, while thruout eons of eternity(future), God knowing that at that same time many are experiencing eternal life, never ceasing also are "people burning in hell being tortured in agonizing pain.....I'm wondered how/why that would bring satisfaction or self fullfillment as in victory .....forever without cease agony and torture.
Did I mention forever and ever.....
To me it seems that satisfaction would never be met.......

I don't really buy it, but I also have no intentions of chancing it either!




Regardless if burning hell or not, I don't want to sin.

another mindset I question the I'm not going to do a certain sin because I don't want to go to hell. How about I don't because it's not in my heart to do it.

[JamDat]

It's more of questioning intepretations of the bible. Pharisees thought they had answers from Gods word. Trinies do too. You think we can't be wrong on some things?

I have found that things I took literal are actualy symbolic. Mistakenly took meaning of words using todays understandingleading to wrong doctrine. For example the word world has diffferent meanings with one example: "end of the world" is refering to end of the age, not eathly world we live in. Simple stuff like this leads us to error on things.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think hell and people going there forever is simple. The theme of eternal damnation and the literal of it are there in the books of the bible.

As a side question, what other words were you mistaken on that lead to what wrong doctrines?

[JamDat]

Regardless if burning hell or not, I don't want to sin.

another mindset I question the I'm not going to do a certain sin because I don't want to go to hell. How about I don't because it's not in my heart to do it.

I think any way you cut it, if you believe that being good will keep you from hell then you might just be going there.

[Truthseeker]

I think any way you cut it, if you believe that being good will keep you from hell then you might just be going there.

If we had to rely on our goodness, we would be in a jam for sure.

[Truthseeker]

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think hell and people going there forever is simple. The theme of eternal damnation and the literal of it are there in the books of the bible.

As a side question, what other words were you mistaken on that lead to what wrong doctrines?

well, the word hell itself has many meaning in the bible, but I always just took as one word with one application. For example Jonah sayd he was in hell when he was in fishes gastric pouch.

Same thing applies to word love, there's agape, euros(sp?), etc..

Ever heard " if we don't praise him the rocks will take our place"? Will rocks really take our place? It was refering to the ones John was converting, not literal rocks.

[Aquila]

I read:

Revelation 14:10
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Compare....

Revelation 22:5
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

[JamDat]

well, the word hell itself has many meaning in the bible, but I always just took as one word with one application. For example Jonah sayd he was in hell when he was in fishes gastric pouch.

Same thing applies to word love, there's agape, euros(sp?), etc..

Ever heard " if we don't praise him the rocks will take our place"? Will rocks really take our place? It was refering to the ones John was converting, not literal rocks.

Yeah, but what doctrine or doctrines? If you don't mind. If you do mind, I understand.

[Steve Epley]

Unbelief will not shorten nor cool off the lake of fire.

The worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.

[Truthseeker]

Yeah, but what doctrine or doctrines? If you don't mind. If you do mind, I understand.

For one I used to believe when it said end of the world it was refering to actual literal earth but after closer look found out it was refering to an age.

Used to believe in literal NJ city, but after closer look found out it just descriptive term of the church.

Not going to go through whole list, but point being is misunderstood meanings of words or phrases leads to errors in belief/preaching/teaching.

[shag]

Unbelief will not shorten nor cool off the lake of fire.

The worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched.


Fiya proof worms?

[Truthseeker]

Fiya proof worms?

Yeah, like them fire proof sinners that are outside the city on new earth after old earth is burnt up. Fire proof sinners. :thumbsup

[Steve Epley]

I read:

Revelation 14:10
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Compare....

Revelation 22:5
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

There is the context not some passaage in Exodus which has nothing to do with the subject. Thanks.

[NotforSale]

I do not believe in the 'immortal soul' immortality is only given to the righteous. However GOD said they would be tormented forever and they will be NOT because they have an immortal soul but because God will cause them to suffer for eternity.

Huh? :confused:

Get your words strait before trying to explain something as complicated as the afterlife.

If your grammatical skill here is any sign of your ability to interpret the Bible, History, Science, and Culture, people listening to you are in trouble.

Mr. Epley, you appear to be cut and dry, but your trail of mixed up words/ideas, and, your lack of solid reasoning are dangerous.

[NotforSale]

It's more of questioning intepretations of the bible. Pharisees thought they had answers from Gods word. Trinies do too. You think we can't be wrong on some things?

I have found that things I took literal are actualy symbolic. Mistakenly took meaning of words using todays understandingleading to wrong doctrine. For example the word world has diffferent meanings with one example: "end of the world" is refering to end of the age, not eathly world we live in. Simple stuff like this leads us to error on things.

:thumbsup

Look at Paul. He was an absolute Bible fanatic. His mission to destroy and kill Christians was strait from God, or so he thought. Even the best can driven with a passion that is off the mark.

Also, look at the Book of Revelation. This Book has gotten countless Preachers/Churches in trouble. All of the symbolisms and metaphors have created a myriad of false prophecies within our Movement.

Too many people approach the Bible with their "Special" insight, instead of confessing how much we DON'T know.

[NotforSale]

Forever and everlasting is determined by the context and in the context of eternal judgment then if eternal life is without an end then eternal punishment is without an end. Very simple.

Why does Eternal Damnation (torment/torture/agony/burning in flames forever) have to be in context with Eternal life?

This is not very simple.

[iceniez]

http://youtu.be/G824ZoXIz6s

[Steve Epley]

Huh? :confused:

Get your words strait before trying to explain something as complicated as the afterlife.

If your grammatical skill here is any sign of your ability to interpret the Bible, History, Science, and Culture, people listening to you are in trouble.

Mr. Epley, you appear to be cut and dry, but your trail of mixed up words/ideas, and, your lack of solid reasoning are dangerous.

The allow me to explain clearer IF I can. Immortality is only promised to the righteous and the majority of the passages are concerning the BODY and NOT the soul. However the people are NOT born with eternal life from their natural birth we recieve eternal life from our spiritual birth. So the wicked do not have eternal life nor will they recieve an immortal body. HOWEVER God who is the Creator and who has the power to kill and make alive will cause the wicked to be tormented forever without end NOT because they are somehow born eternal creatures but because His judgment will allow them to suffer eternal death or dying.

[Truthseeker]

http://youtu.be/G824ZoXIz6s

What does that have to do with hell?

[iceniez]

What does that have to do with hell?

He had a vision of people in or going to hell. Also that his passion is that people not go there,

[NotforSale]

The allow me to explain clearer IF I can. Immortality is only promised to the righteous and the majority of the passages are concerning the BODY and NOT the soul. However the people are NOT born with eternal life from their natural birth we recieve eternal life from our spiritual birth. So the wicked do not have eternal life nor will they recieve an immortal body. HOWEVER God who is the Creator and who has the power to kill and make alive will cause the wicked to be tormented forever without end NOT because they are somehow born eternal creatures but because His judgment will allow them to suffer eternal death or dying.

Sorry, still confused by your Spectral bantering. You give ultimatums that cannot be proven. Guess work leads to more guessing.

How can a person die, forever? When a person dies, they cease to exist.

[Steve Epley]

Sorry, still confused by your Spectral bantering. You give ultimatums that cannot be proven. Guess work leads to more guessing.

How can a person die, forever? When a person dies, they cease to exist.

Yes if God wills they can and will die forever not naturally but God can and will make it so.
They are NOT going to cease to exist.

[Steve Epley]

Sorry, still confused by your Spectral bantering. You give ultimatums that cannot be proven. Guess work leads to more guessing.

How can a person die, forever? When a person dies, they cease to exist.

I am sorry I offered to explain what I meant since you are so brilliant and articulate I am sure it humbled you just to read it. I hope you have taught several I hate for wisdom to die with you.

[jfrog]

I think football coaches have it right. We need to take our schedule game by game and see where we end up. We don't need to worry about the playoffs or championship game or any of that till we are actually there. Why? Because they understand that taking care of business today will give us the best chance ending up where we want to be.

So does it really matter if hell is real or the wicked die or if god turns them into snails? What we can be sure of is that the righteous will live forever and that God has a good place for them. But even with that knowledge maybe its better to take the football coach approach and take each day like a game... one at a time.

[Dagwood]

I think football coaches have it right. We need to take our schedule game by game and see where we end up. We don't need to worry about the playoffs or championship game or any of that till we are actually there. Why? Because they understand that taking care of business today will give us the best chance ending up where we want to be.

So does it really matter if hell is real or the wicked die or if god turns them into snails? What we can be sure of is that the righteous will live forever and that God has a good place for them. But even with that knowledge maybe its better to take the football coach approach and take each day like a game... one at a time.

:thumbsup:thumbsup

[Timmy]

I am sorry I offered to explain what I meant since you are so brilliant and articulate I am sure it humbled you just to read it. I hope you have taught several I hate for wisdom to die with you.

Another irony meter bites the dust.

[Timmy]

I think football coaches have it right. We need to take our schedule game by game and see where we end up. We don't need to worry about the playoffs or championship game or any of that till we are actually there. Why? Because they understand that taking care of business today will give us the best chance ending up where we want to be.

So does it really matter if hell is real or the wicked die or if god turns them into snails? . . .

To us wicked people, you bet it matters!

[Amanah]

To us wicked people, you bet it matters!

So you could wind up being escargot?

[Timmy]

So you could wind up being escargot?

Among other possibilities! :lol

[iceniez]

I posted the wrong video , I am sorry . http://youtu.be/6EOYti6k-vk

[NotforSale]

Yes if God wills they can and will die forever not naturally but God can and will make it so.
They are NOT going to cease to exist.

Oh, so God told you He would "Make it so"?

Steve, I don't know you, but some of the things that you say on this Forum are totally your personal opinion. That's OK with me, but just admit that these opinions are yours and they might be in error.

Christianity is overrun with opinions and ideas that cannot be proven, and we do the World an injustice by claiming these as facts.

We can run in circles all day long with our opinions that live in a false balance.

Here is a brief definition of Death; Death is the permanent termination of the biological functions that sustain a living organism. When you tell people they will die forever, you are confusing them. This is also how Religions lose their credibility.

I also think that you would be more careful in building a premise for truth, as you were once in False Doctrine.

[RandyWayne]

One thing I have wondered off and on, if a person were to experience endless agony in hell, how does this happen if they are there as a soul? Does the soul have nerves and nerve endings which funnel pain sensations to a central brain?

[crakjak]

This is an example of how subtle the serpent can be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODUvw2McL8g


Now don't you just feel stupid for believing what the bible says?

Oh, please!!

[Timmy]

One thing I have wondered off and on, if a person were to experience endless agony in hell, how does this happen if they are there as a soul? Does the soul have nerves and nerve endings which funnel pain sensations to a central brain?

God has that all figured out. Don't worry.

[Amanah]

I'm voting for annihilation, if it works for Bro Eastman and MTD, it works for me

[berkeley]

I'm voting for annihilation, if it works for Bro Eastman and MTD, it works for me

You have a very impressionable mind. O.o

[Amanah]

You have a very impressionable mind. O.o

not really, I just figure this is the least of my worries.

[JamDat]

Oh, please!!

Please what?

[Michael The Disciple]

I'm voting for annihilation, if it works for Bro Eastman and MTD, it works for me

Before Jesus comes it will be fully accepted in the body of Christ. :highfive

[crakjak]

Please what?

Rob Bell preaches the gospel each week to more than many preachers do in a life time. And you want to call him a voice of the serpent??? You are not scriptural in doing so. Jesus told his followers not to condemn those that were preaching Jesus, "...if they are not against us they are for us".

He preaches a God of peace and love, not one of hate of His creation. A God that succeeds in His purpose not one that is always angry with His creation.

The lost won't even listen to most preaching, but Rob Bell is "...wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove..." in his presentations. That is the only comparison to a serpent,that stands, not THE serpent.

[crakjak]

I'm voting for annihilation, if it works for Bro Eastman and MTD, it works for me

More compassionate, however still not the final purpose of God. What? He can't fix the brokenness, so He just burns it up????

[TGBTG]

Before Jesus comes it will be fully accepted in the body of Christ. :highfive

So are you insinuating that a person who does not believe in annihilation is not in the body of Christ?

[Timmy]

So are you insinuating that a person who does not believe in annihilation is not in the body of Christ?

Seems more like "You will be assimilated!" :lol

[Michael The Disciple]

So are you insinuating that a person who does not believe in annihilation is not in the body of Christ?

Everyone baptized in the Holy Spirit is in the body of Christ. Yet not every one who is Christs understands his foundation teachings.

[TGBTG]

Everyone baptized in the Holy Spirit is in the body of Christ. Yet not every one who is Christs understands his foundation teachings.

Ok...but I don't think annihilation is foundational, is it?

1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

1. Repentance from dead works
2. Faith towards God
3. Baptisms
4. Laying on of hands
5. Ressurection of the dead
6. Eternal Judgement

It does not specifically say what happens in the eternal judgement though...

[Timmy]

Everyone baptized in the Holy Spirit is in the body of Christ. Yet not every one who is Christs understands his foundation teachings.

Translation: not everyone has the same understanding of things that MtD has. :heeheehee

[JamDat]

Rob Bell preaches the gospel each week to more than many preachers do in a life time. And you want to call him a voice of the serpent??? You are not scriptural in doing so. Jesus told his followers not to condemn those that were preaching Jesus, "...if they are not against us they are for us".

He preaches a God of peace and love, not one of hate of His creation. A God that succeeds in His purpose not one that is always angry with His creation.

The lost won't even listen to most preaching, but Rob Bell is "...wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove..." in his presentations. That is the only comparison to a serpent,that stands, not THE serpent.

I don't care how many people he preaches to. He preaches a different gospel than Jesus being the only way.

[JamDat]

Rob Bell preaches the gospel each week to more than many preachers do in a life time. And you want to call him a voice of the serpent??? You are not scriptural in doing so. Jesus told his followers not to condemn those that were preaching Jesus, "...if they are not against us they are for us".

He preaches a God of peace and love, not one of hate of His creation. A God that succeeds in His purpose not one that is always angry with His creation.

The lost won't even listen to most preaching, but Rob Bell is "...wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove..." in his presentations. That is the only comparison to a serpent,that stands, not THE serpent.

If you don't like serpent I'll call him wolf then.

[crakjak]

I don't care how many people he preaches to. He preaches a different gospel than Jesus being the only way.

You haven't heard his complete message, to believe that.

[crakjak]

If you don't like serpent I'll call him wolf then.

I don't like either, but, of course, you can do what you like.

[UnTraditional]

A denial of the truth of the eternal justice of God on the basis of human understanding and compassion, a lowered attitude toward sin and the degrading of the truth of the horrendous crime against the holiness of God that sin is, such things are what birth and construct this annihilation doctrine. It is when men think with their carnal heart instead of heeding to the scriptures that this heresy comes into being.

[Michael The Disciple]

A denial of the truth of the eternal justice of God on the basis of human understanding and compassion, a lowered attitude toward sin and the degrading of the truth of the horrendous crime against the holiness of God that sin is, such things are what birth and construct this annihilation doctrine. It is when men think with their carnal heart instead of heeding to the scriptures that this heresy comes into being.

No it is not based on these things. The attitude of God towards sin is seen in that lukewarm and sinning Christians themselves will be cast into Hell. God is offended by their cults that teach "you cant be perfect".

Annihilation doctrine is based simply on what God says are the wages of sin.

Old Testament:

18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4

New Testament:

6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:21-23

Those who oppose the truth say mans soul is immortal and cannot die.

God says even the brethren who turn back will suffer the death of their SOUL.

5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

[Praxeas]

That we need to develop a love for Christ based on facts and not fear!:thumbsup
If hell is a place of punishment, what does that have to do with "we need to develop a love for Christ based on facts and not fear!"??

That assumes something that has not been shown to be true

[Praxeas]

I could never understand why God would send someone to hell for an ageless amount of time for only a lifetime worth of sin.
Let's apply that rational to our secular system. Someone robs a bank and in the process murders 2 people. It took him 30 min. So let's incarcerate him for 30 min

[Praxeas]

I believe the wicked will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. That does not take away the fear of God. In the very context of Jesus teaching that the souls of the wicked shall be destroyed in Gehenna he is telling us we ought to fear God.

10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt. 10:28

So Jesus taught to fear God. He also taught souls will be destroyed just like bodies-IN HELL.
This is very much more likely than the Universal Reconcilliation view

[Praxeas]

the idea that hell is for immortal souls that were wicked is extra-biblical. that is why the soul that sinneth shall DIE.
Death means the cessation of physical life. The other way Death is used is a spiritual disconnection from God

[Praxeas]

I'm beginning to wonder how many of you are actually looking to the website. lol
Better yet, learn it yourself and make the arguments here and discuss them with us

[UnTraditional]

An eternal injustice against the Holy One deems an eternal separation from God. You demean the severity of sin by making the judgment against it total destruction instead of total damnation as we deserve.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:10-15)

Folks, the Bible does not lie. Hell is eternal, it is real, and all who are not in Christ shall be there day and night for all eternity. Annihilationism is a doctrine which demeans the truth about sin, the holiness of God, and the righteousness of His judgment.

[Praxeas]

But is Hell literally an area? a Location? Or is it a condition? A quality? A state of being?

[Michael The Disciple]

An eternal injustice against the Holy One deems an eternal separation from God. You demean the severity of sin by making the judgment against it total destruction instead of total damnation as we deserve.



Folks, the Bible does not lie. Hell is eternal, it is real, and all who are not in Christ shall be there day and night for all eternity. Annihilationism is a doctrine which demeans the truth about sin, the holiness of God, and the righteousness of His judgment.

Paul was an apostle. He knew the truth of Christs foundation teachings.

Not even one time did he mention anyone burning for eternity. Nope. Not one time. My Pastor told me this many years ago and at first I didnt believe him. I went about to prove him wrong. He was right.

[UnTraditional]

But, Revelation did teach it! I proved it clearly and concisely. And even posted the scripture. Your pastor was dead wrong if he was/is an annihilationist. Scripture proves this heresy wrong.

[freeatlast]

But, Revelation did teach it! I proved it clearly and concisely. And even posted the scripture. Your pastor was dead wrong if he was/is an annihilationist. Scripture proves this heresy wrong.

You'll change your mind on this one too, someday.

[UnTraditional]

You'll change your mind on this one too, someday.

Hey FAL! Legalism walked away from me. So, I let you all go! You cannot be part of where Jesus is bringing me, where He is taking me. You cannot fathom where my mistakes, my backsliding, my failures have led me, but also where His grace is taking me! Keep your holier-than-thou self walking away. While you're talking, I'll keep on walking! Hands washed, life cleansed, destiny driven, and free from the opinions of haters and false friends!

Peace out man! Just gotta walk on.

[Michael The Disciple]

But, Revelation did teach it! I proved it clearly and concisely. And even posted the scripture. Your pastor was dead wrong if he was/is an annihilationist. Scripture proves this heresy wrong.

Problem is you THINK you are understanding Revelation. You dont. Pauls teaching is in agreement with Johns teaching. They were both taught by Jesus.

You think you have proved your point because of the words "forever and ever".

Jonah said he went to Hell "forever". Jonah 2:2- 6. Jesus said he was there 3 days.

John said satan is tormented for ever and ever. Ezekiel said he will be burned into ashes and be nothing. That he never shall BE any more. Ezekiel 28:18-19

Who was right?

Note Nehemiah 9:5

Then the Levites, Jeshua, and Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabniah, Sherebiah, Hodijah, Shebaniah, and Pethahiah, said, Stand up and bless the LORD your God for ever and ever:

They told the people to bless the Lord for how long? FOR EVER AND EVER.

Are they still standing there today? THINK ABOUT IT.

I know its hard to accept something you have always heard was false. When I was a Trinitarian there seemed to be plenty of evidence for my belief. The problem was I was working from a wrong foundation. As I began to study from scripture and forget what men were saying my picture of God began to change.

Why? I found the bottom line. The true point of reference.

It works the same with any truth. The bottom line of the punishment for the wicked is given plainly in the Old and New Covenant scriptures as being the death of the wicked.

When you get that. Then you can more clearly interpret the doctrine.

You should be very concerned that the one who wrote most of the New Covenant scriptures never once mentiond burning through all eternity. He was very consistent in all his writings that the DESTRUCTION of the wicked would be their judgment.

Matter of fact you should be very concerned that the very same thing is true about Apostle Peter. The man with "the keys".

The very same thing is true about James writings. The Lords brother. Not a word about burning in eternity.

Also the epistles of John do not give us one scripture about burning in eternity. Rather we hear of those who sin "unto death". 1 John 5:16

The book of Revelation written by John is to be interpreted to agree with the sound straightforward teaching of the apostles. After all THEY UNDERSTOOD what Jesus meant by his teachings better than we do.

John ends up saying men are cast into the Lake Of Fire and calls it the SECOND DEATH.
Death is not life. It is the OPPOSITE of life.

[JamDat]

Peposting the same thing over and over doesn't make it true. I'm pretty sure most see through the twisting of scripture.

[Nitehawk013]

The Ezekiel example only holds water for those who still believe it is talking about Satan. Poetic language describing a human king does not a deity make. If that is the case, why not deify the Pharoah who is equally described in poetic ways to make him sound like more han just a man?

As to forever meaning forever, who gets to be the arbitor of when forever really means forever and when it doesn't? I lean more towards annihilationsim than I ever would UR, but I think all sides fo the issue require one to decide they understand something everyone else doesn't. It is usually arguing about how they just know for sure that a word doesn't really mean what it says it means.

Heck, we can't even agree about so called "hard doctrine" and yet we argue nonstop about non-salvific stuff like this.

[Amanah]

so true Nitehawk

[NotforSale]

Hey FAL! Legalism walked away from me. So, I let you all go!:tissue You cannot be part of where Jesus is bringing me, where He is taking me.:sad You cannot fathom where my mistakes, my backsliding, my failures have led me, but also where His grace is taking me! Keep your holier-than-thou self walking away.:razz While you're talking, I'll keep on walking! Hands washed, life cleansed, destiny driven, and free from the opinions of haters and false friends!:drawguns

Peace out man! Just gotta walk on.:walking:

:toofunny

[freeatlast]

hey fal! Legalism walked away from me. So, i let you all go! You cannot be part of where jesus is bringing me, where he is taking me. You cannot fathom where my mistakes, my backsliding, my failures have led me, but also where his grace is taking me! keep your holier-than-thou self walking away. while you're talking, i'll keep on walking! Hands washed, life cleansed, destiny driven, and free from the opinions of haters and false friends!

Peace out man! Just gotta walk on.

ouch !

[Michael The Disciple]

The Ezekiel example only holds water for those who still believe it is talking about Satan. Poetic language describing a human king does not a deity make. If that is the case, why not deify the Pharoah who is equally described in poetic ways to make him sound like more han just a man?

As to forever meaning forever, who gets to be the arbitor of when forever really means forever and when it doesn't? I lean more towards annihilationsim than I ever would UR, but I think all sides fo the issue require one to decide they understand something everyone else doesn't. It is usually arguing about how they just know for sure that a word doesn't really mean what it says it means.

Heck, we can't even agree about so called "hard doctrine" and yet we argue nonstop about non-salvific stuff like this.

To me this is "hard doctrine". It is the foundation doctrine of eternal judgment!


Where do we get the ideas we believe about satan? Is it not from Ezekiel? Apart from his teaching we have no idea about the origin of the devil.

[Nitehawk013]

The jews believed Satan was Ha-satan, an angel with a very specific duty in watching and pointing out man's failures, being our accuser.

My notes rae at home, but I did a 2 week lesson on Satan last year in Adult Sunday School class. I had to do a lot of reading on th eorigins b/c they are very vague. In the end, Isaiah and Ezekiel IMO are clearly just using elevated or poetic language to denote the stature of actual kings, not an angelic being. They use this same practice when speakign of the Pharoah and of another king in anothe rchapter, yet those men are not also considered "angels" or references to Satan.

In the case of Lucifer it gets even worse. We continue to state Lucifer is the angelic name of Satan before he fell. Lucifer doesn't exist though. Lucifer is a name created from combining two latin words (which did not appear in the Hebrew writing of Isaiah), Lucem ferre. Most modern translation rightly leave it out of the Bible. It was the third century when Lucifer started being used, most say it started with Origen and Tertullian.

At best, all we know about Satan is that he is our accuser and our enemy. We know he was cast out of Heaven and resides as a fallen angel. we know nothign more for certain about his origin than we do of any other heavenly being's origins. God made them, that is about the extent of it. Much of Satan's origin has been written by authors of religious fiction, not biblical writers. Much comes from the book of Enoch, which most would not support as cannon.

In the end, lucifer is a proper name created by combing two seperate latin words. Because of the fact that the scripture mentions that "lucifer" was cast from heaven, many link this to Satan who was also thrown out. The name Lucifer doesn't appear except in Latin translation and doesn't in truth exist. Ezekiel very clearly states the text there is speakign of the king of Tyre and neevr mentions any morning star(lucifer). Isaiah specifically says it is dealign with a babylonian king referred to as Helel, the shining one.

We accredit all these to Satan and call him Lucifer because we don't like mysteries. We want there to be a very clear answer to the origin of our adversary. That doesn't make it correct though.

I have no issue saying Satan is the devil, our enemy and a fallen angel. He is not Lucifer though. Lucifer, the name, doesn't exist in scripture.