Non-Tithers are Excommunicated?

[Orthodoxy]

Today I was in the foyer of a conservative Missionary Baptist Church. On the bulletin board in the foyer was an open letter from the pastor to the congregation.

In the letter, the pastor stated that he had been very lenient in the past regarding his members and tithing. He then said that he was very disappointed at the lack of tithing among his congregants. He apologized for his former leniency, and said that things were going to change. From now on, every member of his church was required to tithe. He would give them a grace period of 30 days, but after that, if a church member failed to tithe, they would be excommunicated.

Now look, I understand that the concept of sacrificial giving is Biblical. I believe that every true Christian will have the desire to give of his finances to the Kingdom. Truth be told, tithing should probably be the bare minimum of our giving. It's a disgrace that we in America give so little, considering our wealth.

But I cannot say that tithing is a requirement for church membership. Where is this in the Bible? Furthermore, I've never heard a pastor say that he would excommunicate any member who did not tithe. Has anyone else heard anything like this?

[Dagwood]

I find it kind of strange he would go this level. However, I'd be curious to know if he previously spoke to the congregation as a heads-up that he was going to do this. We'll probably never know...

For some reason, and I may be wrong, but I believe something like this happens in the Mormon church. I'd have to research a little. But, I vividly recall some of their members stopping by my house to collect tithes...10 years after voluntarily disfellowship. This was back in the late 90s; things may have changed since then...

[Scott Hutchinson]

If Tithing is for the new covenant than why don't the pastors be like the Levites and not own any property,and how come any of the tithing money doesn't go to widows or orphans ?And yes we should be liberal in our giving,and we should support the work of God with our monetary support,but we don't find tithing in the New Testament.

[Scott Hutchinson]

http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/18-1.htm

[Scott Hutchinson]

http://www.reformed-theology.org/html/issue10/tithe.htm

[Sister Alvear]

would they excommunicate for 2nd marriage? lol....probably no if they paid tithes...

[Truthseeker]

You know the money sins get alot of attention. :)

[RandyWayne]

would they excommunicate for 2nd marriage? lol....probably no if they paid tithes...

Follow the money trail......

[Sabby]

Today I was in the foyer of a conservative Missionary Baptist Church. On the bulletin board in the foyer was an open letter from the pastor to the congregation.

In the letter, the pastor stated that he had been very lenient in the past regarding his members and tithing. He then said that he was very disappointed at the lack of tithing among his congregants. He apologized for his former leniency, and said that things were going to change. From now on, every member of his church was required to tithe. He would give them a grace period of 30 days, but after that, if a church member failed to tithe, they would be excommunicated.

Now look, I understand that the concept of sacrificial giving is Biblical. I believe that every true Christian will have the desire to give of his finances to the Kingdom. Truth be told, tithing should probably be the bare minimum of our giving. It's a disgrace that we in America give so little, considering our wealth.

But I cannot say that tithing is a requirement for church membership. Where is this in the Bible? Furthermore, I've never heard a pastor say that he would excommunicate any member who did not tithe. Has anyone else heard anything like this?

This is a lightning rod for alot of preachers, and especially pastors that derive their income from tithe paying saints.

Bro Hutchinson has provided OT references about Levites receiving the tithes. I have studied this for years and have never come to a conclusion that tithes are a New Testament mandate (Atlanta Bishop will disagree).

In the NT I see exhortation to give freely in Luke 6, but this word give can mean more than $$$. This scripture contextually has to do with how we are to properly act and treat one another, not how we are to contribute financially in church. This is not an injunction to tithe.

The fact that Paul received offerings (he likened it to taking spoil" saying he "robbed" other churches - II Corinthians 2) is not an appeal for NT tithes although it proves that Paul in fact received offerings.

I also read in 1 Timothy 5 that those that (verb) presbter, laboring in the word and doctrine, are worthy of two-fold (double) honor. Honor here implies monetary or subsistent honor and can be analagous to esteeming, but the primary impetus is financial.. A minister that truly labors in the word is deserving of two-fold honor. The implication is to settle the question of compensation for ministry. They are deserving of compensation. There is not a tithing appeal implicit in this letter.

Paul claimed that they that labored "in the gospel" would be fed by it. There is no other way to interpret 1 Tim 5 and 1 Cor 9 but that the ministry could (should) subsist from the gospel. However, I do not see a mandate for tithing here.

The crux of the matter of NT giving is that it is a heart and conscience issue. Paul made it clear when dealing with those that argued over the Sabbath being required or not.
Romans 14:5
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. Romans..14:6
He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

The issue of tithing, if it can at all be considered a New Testament doctrine, rests here. Whether one tithes or does not, they "do it unto the Lord". Therefore, if you decide to tithe, it is because you have made a choice in the liberty God has given you to tithe. The same holds true if you decided to not tithe, because you have made a choice in the liberty God has given you not to tithe. Warning here: If you decide to exercise your liberty not to tithe, it does not negate deserving “reward” for the labor in the word and doctrine being done by presbytery in the body of Christ.

Romans..14:7
For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. I see where one esteems one day, or moon and another doesn't, but both do it "unto the Lord"

This is used by non-tithers to stop giving financially. At this point, to them, giving is "legalism" when they fully do not understand that the ministry is worthy to be unmuzzled, given to, in fact receive double honor.

NOW WE NEED TO DEFINE WHAT MINISTRY IS. Which will require a brand new thread! :happydance

[Sabby]

We give attorneys up to $700-$800 an hour billing fee, we give physicians $200 for 15 minutes in a clinical setting.
Why do we think that there is no value added in ministry and that the ministry is worth nothing?

Just asking

[houston]

We give attorneys up to $700-$800 an hour billing fee, we give physicians $200 for 15 minutes in a clinical setting.
Why do we think that there is no value added in ministry and that the ministry is worth nothing?

Just asking

Jesus said to feed his sheep. What some people are fed that passes for spiritual food is worth no more than what is offered on the Mc Donald's dollar menu.

[Truthseeker]

We give attorneys up to $700-$800 an hour billing fee, we give physicians $200 for 15 minutes in a clinical setting.
Why do we think that there is no value added in ministry and that the ministry is worth nothing?

Just asking

Who posted anything about not giving?

[OP_Carl]

It's a disgrace that we in America give so little, considering our wealth. Inform yourself before you type. No other nation in recorded history has given as much as America, both as a state and in aggregate as individuals.

Truth be told, tithing should probably be the bare minimum of our giving.
But I cannot say that tithing is a requirement for church membership. It is an essential requirement for church membership. Why would you want the obviously uncommitted, irresponsible, and/or immature to influence decisions large or small?

Where is this in the Bible? Furthermore, I've never heard a pastor say that he would excommunicate any member who did not tithe. Has anyone else heard anything like this?
Hell hath no fury like a Baptist scorned? :dunno

[Praxeas]

Today I was in the foyer of a conservative Missionary Baptist Church. On the bulletin board in the foyer was an open letter from the pastor to the congregation.

In the letter, the pastor stated that he had been very lenient in the past regarding his members and tithing. He then said that he was very disappointed at the lack of tithing among his congregants. He apologized for his former leniency, and said that things were going to change. From now on, every member of his church was required to tithe. He would give them a grace period of 30 days, but after that, if a church member failed to tithe, they would be excommunicated.

Now look, I understand that the concept of sacrificial giving is Biblical. I believe that every true Christian will have the desire to give of his finances to the Kingdom. Truth be told, tithing should probably be the bare minimum of our giving. It's a disgrace that we in America give so little, considering our wealth.

But I cannot say that tithing is a requirement for church membership. Where is this in the Bible? Furthermore, I've never heard a pastor say that he would excommunicate any member who did not tithe. Has anyone else heard anything like this?
How does he know who is tithing and who is not?

[Orthodoxy]

How does he know who is tithing and who is not?

Good question... :confused: This is not a tiny church either. The sanctuary seats about 600.

[Dagwood]

How does he know who is tithing and who is not?

Some pastors might ask the church secretary for the financial records when he notices a decline in the tithes/offerings...

Whether or not it's any of his business is a matter of determining what the church's financial setup is -- does the pastor receive all tithes/offerings or only a portion?

Sounds like the church Ortho mentioned may be one of those where the pastor receives all the tithes. But, then again, I don't know how it's set up at the local level or if the church answers to an organization...

[Orthodoxy]

Inform yourself before you type. No other nation in recorded history has given as much as America, both as a state and in aggregate as individuals.

No disagreement there. I was speaking in relative, not absolute, terms.

What I was emphasizing is that the American Christian gives an average of about 2.5% of his income. It's actually probably less in the current economy. In the year 2000, one out of eight Christians tithed. In the same year, four out of every ten adults gave nothing to their churches (The Barna Update, June 5, 2001, www.barna.org). That's pretty pitiful.


Hell hath no fury like a Baptist scorned? :dunno

I love Baptists! :highfive

In fact, I'm probably one of the most baptistic members on this forum. :heeheehee

[OP_Carl]

No disagreement there. I was speaking in relative, not absolute, terms.

What I was emphasizing is that the American Christian gives an average of about 2.5% of his income. It's actually probably less in the current economy. In the year 2000, one out of eight Christians tithed. In the same year, four out of every ten adults gave nothing to their churches (The Barna Update, June 5, 2001, www.barna.org). That's pretty pitiful.

So if his church is filled with "average American Christians," is he going to throw them all out?

I can't help but wonder if their statistics draw from the pool of everybody who has a Christmas tree, rather than attempting to poll those who regularly attend church?

Ten out of ten sinners sinned last year, and five out of four people don't understand fractions.

I hope you are familiar with Mark Twain's quote about statistics?

I love Baptists! :highfive me too. They're delicious!

[RandyWayne]

I've always given cash. Unless they want to start doing DNA tests, no one has a record. We've also written checks to various ministries not associated with our church, so again, they would have no way of knowing.

[Jay]

I pay my tithes, and try very hard to be faithful and diligent. I do find it to be a mandate from Scripture. I am not going to get into the whole thing now, but I have found that when one obeys this command, God will bless in many ways. Not all of the Old Testament was done away with by the New. The laborer is still worthy of his hire, and the tithing supports the Pastor, who is the man of God.

[Truthseeker]

I pay my tithes, and try very hard to be faithful and diligent. I do find it to be a mandate from Scripture. I am not going to get into the whole thing now, but I have found that when one obeys this command, God will bless in many ways. Not all of the Old Testament was done away with by the New. The laborer is still worthy of his hire, and the tithing supports the Pastor, who is the man of God.

You might want to check out the treads about tithing that show its not a mandate for NT.

[Sherri]

I pay my tithes, and try very hard to be faithful and diligent. I do find it to be a mandate from Scripture. I am not going to get into the whole thing now, but I have found that when one obeys this command, God will bless in many ways. Not all of the Old Testament was done away with by the New. The laborer is still worthy of his hire, and the tithing supports the Pastor, who is the man of God.Very few people on here still believe in tithing, according to the threads we've had on it. I am a STRONG believer that it's still for today. I've seen the blessings that come from it through 33 years of marriage, and even before.

[Aquila]

Big religion is big business.

One of the most anointed prophets I've ever known was a house church elder named Scott. Scott hadn't graced the doorway of a traditional church building in over 6 or seven years when I first met him about five years ago. Scott was a pastor in TN and resigned his church because of politics and bitter infighting. He moved to Ohio, planing to quietly attend church when God called him to house churching. Scott became an elder serving in a humble house church network that owned no property and didn't plan to ever own property. He didn't draw a salary. He didn't have a staff. Scott and his family simply opened their home for fellowship, served food, had a full meal as part of the Lord's Supper, and held discussion based Bible studies. He refused to turn his calling into a profession. Scott was a local truck driver for a major delivery company. With his earnings he supported his family like everyone else and supplimented the work of the ministry. He firmly believed the saying that if "one doesn't work neither should he eat" equally applied to ministers of the Gospel... if not more so. Scott walked in the prophetic. He had baptist roots but had received the Pentecostal experience in TN. He wasn't big on divisions caused by "theology". His entire ministry was focused on one questionn, "Do you know Jesus?" Scott wasn't offended or take aback by me being Oneness at that time. In fact, he agreed with much of Oneness concerns with regards to the doctrine of the Trinity. Scott could "read" you. Scott's "word from the Lord" was on point. He didn't believe in tithing. Scott called it "religious extortion". He'd say, "I'm called to preach the Gospel, not to stuff a bank account." Scott was big on charity. In one house church meeting at a coffee shop in Tipp City Ohio, I told Scott that I'd still desire to give 10% he put his hand up and said, "Chris, I know that's what you were taught and if you want to give 10%, I support you. But please give it to a charity that assists hurting people. The tithe goes to the poor and the needy." I was floored. He mentioned several charities in Dayton Ohio and an organization named Compassion International (if my memory serves me correctly). He'd argue that the poor and the needy wouldn't be so destitute if the church didn't tithe to buildings and "professional" religious officials. Scott was big on giving to those around you as part of your witness. He took Jesus seriously when Jesus said, if you have two coats, give one away. Scott didn't believe in excess or using religion as a means to make a salary or to aggregate wealth.

Scott left a deep impression on me. It was from that point forward that I began studying the house church movement in depth and found that I believed much like them. I couldn't refute their interpretation. Their fellowship was superior to the two to three "church services" I was attending. They were close, confessional, prayerful, grace filled, Spirit filled, and... free. They saw the Kingdom in everything they did. Their focus wasn't a "service" or a schedule. Nor did they adore a building and/or staff. They truly functioned like a priesthood of believers. The ministry of the pastor, prophet, teacher, apostle, and evangelist were seen as "ministries" belonging to the elders... not offices. A pastor was anyone who was gifted to spiritually mentor believers. Prophets heard from the Lord through the Holy Ghost. Teachers were gifted in explaining doctrine in the meetings. Apostles were gifted in establishing house churches and networking them. Evangelists were gifted in witnessing and street ministry. Scott's house church had three or four gifted to "pastor", himself being one of them. He explained that a spiritually mature Christian can be used by God in any of the fivefold ministries. They weren't offices... they were spiritual callings wherein gifts were to be used.

Scott was such a blessing. Through Scott, the LORD opened my eyes to the Kingdom of God in ways that surpass "churchianity" and "denominationalism".

The true church doesn't have walls. Nor is she in bondage to man. She is the Lord's Bride. And every believer is a priest of the LORD.

[Digging4Truth]

I'd be curious to know if he previously spoke to the congregation as a heads-up that he was going to do this. We'll probably never know...

What would that matter?

[Digging4Truth]

Very few people on here still believe in tithing, according to the threads we've had on it. I am a STRONG believer that it's still for today. I've seen the blessings that come from it through 33 years of marriage, and even before.

Nobody's saying anything about the blessings of giving. The thread is about what amounts to a pastor cursing people for not upholding a small smidgeon of his interpretation of the OT law on tithing while he, himself, completely ignores the rest of the tithing law that is not convenient.

[Dagwood]

What would that matter?

Not that it would really matter. Just sometimes when times get tough for the church, a pastor will be quick to mention it and/or even incorporate it in their preaching...

[Digging4Truth]

Not that it would really matter. Just sometimes when times get tough for the church, a pastor will be quick to mention it and/or even incorporate it in their preaching...

Agreed.

[Truthseeker]

Very few people on here still believe in tithing, according to the threads we've had on it. I am a STRONG believer that it's still for today. I've seen the blessings that come from it through 33 years of marriage, and even before.

And many are blessed that don't believe in tithes. Scripture should be the deciding factor.

[MamaHen]

A UPC preacher in NC did the same thing a few months ago.

[freeatlast]

I pay my tithes. I give them to Feeding America. Talk about putting meat in the storehouse.

Malachi 3:10
New International Version (NIV)

10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it.

[Digging4Truth]

A UPC preacher in NC did the same thing a few months ago.

That's a shame to hear.

[Dagwood]

A UPC preacher in NC did the same thing a few months ago.

I'd be curious to know how big his congregation is. Did they just move into a new building and some of the congregants underhandedly lash back against the decision by not giving as freely?

Although I've never experienced it first-hand, that's been known to happen before, especially in these parts.

Some questions may never have answers made available, but there are certainly questions to be had when situations like this happen...

[berkeley]

Hm. A trend that I have seen is many people that can't afford to give, do! and many that can give and not have to worry about making the rent do not give! SAD!

[deafdriscoll]

I see, I see said the blind man. Now my unemployment ran out last december.
So, since I have not had money to pay my tithes during that time does that mean I am excommunicated?
hmmmmmmm..........
Well, jesus still loves me.
I have a part time job now. 20 hours a week.

[RandyWayne]

I wonder what % of your typical UC preachers would expect a check for a hundred grand in the offering plate if they found out one of their "sheep" spent some time in a casino and hit a million dollar jackpot playing slots?

Of course a hundred grand wouldn't be enough either. Since tithing is considered mandatory, it isn't true giving, so there would be an expectation of another 50 or so thousand as part of an offering.

An old pastor of mine taught that besides the mandatory 10%, you were expected to give 5% as an offering. Since the first 15% was now in effect, required, you had to go above and beyond THAT to be considered truly giving.

For some reason when I was watching the movie Office Space, the scene at the restaurant where Jennifer Anistons character is arguing with her manager about the amount of 'flair' she had to wear, made me think of the this whole thing.

[berkeley]

LOL. love that movie

[deafdriscoll]

another thought he who lives by the law dies by the law.
if pay tithes is mandatory by some does that mean they are buying their way into heaven.
I thought salvation was a free gift. Do we change rules without asking God?