Does It Need To Be Changed?

[Digging4Truth]

On another place there was some discussion about a song that someone is wanting to do. The song was One God by Ken Reynolds.

The interesting point I saw was that they were wanting to know what they could with the last line of the chorus. They were, apparently, not comfortable with the wording and wanted to change it.

Here is the chorus...

One God one faith one Spirit
Jesus we worship You
One Lord one way one truth
The way to the Father is through You

Is there anything wrong with the last line?

Do you think that it needs to be changed?

I'm not going to argue with that person... I'm not looking for ammo or anything. I just found it interesting that they wanted to change the wording and was wondering how y'all felt about whether it needed changing or not.

[OneAccord]

I don't think it needs to be changed. Seems to go right along with what Jesus said:
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[Digging4Truth]

I don't think it needs to be changed. Seems to go right along with what Jesus said:
Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Agreed.

I was pretty blown away that a near direct quote from the Bible needed to be changed.

[Nitehawk013]

Oneness si not an "easy" doctrine. Most people are pretty shallow in it so they want to make sure any reference at all that might make a person question it is removed.

We don't want to make most folks on the pew have to get smarter. Instead we will just dumb down all the material so the bites are small enough for the sheep to swallow.

[Jermyn Davidson]

On another place there was some discussion about a song that someone is wanting to do. The song was One God by Ken Reynolds.

The interesting point I saw was that they were wanting to know what they could with the last line of the chorus. They were, apparently, not comfortable with the wording and wanted to change it.

Here is the chorus...



Is there anything wrong with the last line?

Do you think that it needs to be changed?

I'm not going to argue with that person... I'm not looking for ammo or anything. I just found it interesting that they wanted to change the wording and was wondering how y'all felt about whether it needed changing or not.


There is nothing wrong with the wording of that last line.


If it was an Apostolic who wrote it and he/she plans it to be sung in an Apostolic church, then there would be problems and create confusion.


Apostolics believe that Jesus IS the Father.
The last line contradicts this belief.

The whole song should be scuttled as it is obviously written by someone in rebellion or someone on the cusp of backsliding into the heresy of mainstream Christianity.

[Amanah]

There is nothing wrong with the wording of that last line.


If it was an Apostolic who wrote it and he/she plans it to be sung in an Apostolic church, then there would be problems and create confusion.


Apostolics believe that Jesus IS the Father.
The last line contradicts this belief.

The whole song should be scuttled as it is obviously written by someone in rebellion or someone on the cusp of backsliding into the heresy of mainstream Christianity.

are you teasing?

[Timmy]

Agreed.

I was pretty blown away that a near direct quote from the Bible needed to be changed.

Quick, somebody write a song that has a line about baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost! :heeheehee

[Digging4Truth]

There is nothing wrong with the wording of that last line.


If it was an Apostolic who wrote it and he/she plans it to be sung in an Apostolic church, then there would be problems and create confusion.


Apostolics believe that Jesus IS the Father.
The last line contradicts this belief.

The whole song should be scuttled as it is obviously written by someone in rebellion or someone on the cusp of backsliding into the heresy of mainstream Christianity.

Serious?

The Bible contradicts apostolic belief?

[OneAccord]

" One God one faith one Spirit
Jesus we worship You
One Lord one way one truth
The way to the Father is through You"

Maybe this line would make it sound more "Oneness":

"And since You are the Father, the only way to YOU is through YOU!"

Yeah, that should clear it all right up.:nah

[Digging4Truth]

Quick, somebody write a song that has a line about baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost! :heeheehee

I have asked people before... have you been baptized in the name of the Father, son & holy ghost? They quickly replied NO WAY MAN...

I told them... you better. It's in the word. Those were the instructions given to the apostles and every example we have of them following those instructions they baptized in Jesus' name.

So obedience to that command is baptizing in Jesus name but the command should not be a part of the Bible that we deny. We should never deny the word of God.

[Digging4Truth]

" One God one faith one Spirit
Jesus we worship You
One Lord one way one truth
The way to the Father is through You"

Maybe this line would make it sound more "Oneness":

"And since You are the Father, the only way to YOU is through YOU!"

Yeah, that should clear it all right up.:nah

That should clear out any fog. :)

[Jermyn Davidson]

are you teasing?

Kinda, but....

If this is a song written by an Apostolic and it is meant to be an inspiration to Apostolics, then the last line MUST be changed to avoid the risk of confusion.

Most Apostolics believe Jesus is the Father. This is one of the Apostolic distinctives-- the doctrine of the mystery of the Godhead.


Yes there are some who are Apostolic who don't believe Jesus is the Father, but they are a minority and are usually not vocal in their local congregations about their belief because their belief would cause confusion in their local congregation.

This has been personally witnessed and experienced.

[Orthodoxy]

Remember that old Oneness song we would sing at church?

Many People today love Jesus
But they don't know who he is
They put him second place in the Godhead
They've got some strange ideas
But if Jesus Christ Created everything has all power I'm asking you
If Jesus Christ is Lord of Lord
How can he be number two?

Chorus
Let me tell ya who Jesus is
He's the rock of all ages
He's the alpha and the Omega
He's the Heavenly father
He's the beginning and the end
Much more than this, my friend
Hes the son of man, he's coming back again

Bridge
I know Jesus is the Father.
I know Jesus is the Son.
I know Jesus is the Holy Ghost
and all these three are One!


:choir

[Jermyn Davidson]

" One God one faith one Spirit
Jesus we worship You
One Lord one way one truth
The way to the Father is through You"

Maybe this line would make it sound more "Oneness":

"And since You are the Father, the only way to YOU is through YOU!"

Yeah, that should clear it all right up.:nah

Nope, this isn't confusing at all!

So plain that well... if you can't see it you just don't have the revelation.



Without this revelation, you're more than likely not Apostolic, which means more than likely you're probably not saved, which means more than likely your time would be better spent not wasting your time writing songs that are going to send people to hell.

This song encourages an anti-Apostolic theological view of God!

The writer needs to beware-- probably already backslidden, poor deceived soul.

[Dagwood]

No change necessary. It's aligned with the Bible pretty clearly to me, as OneAccord pointed out...

[Dagwood]

Remember that old Oneness song we would sing at church?

Many People today love Jesus
But they don't know who he is
They put him second place in the Godhead
They've got some strange ideas
But if Jesus Christ Created everything has all power I'm asking you
If Jesus Christ is Lord of Lord
How can he be number two?

Chorus
Let me tell ya who Jesus is
He's the rock of all ages
He's the alpha and the Omega
He's the Heavenly father
He's the beginning and the end
Much more than this, my friend
Hes the son of man, he's coming back again

Bridge
I know Jesus is the Father.
I know Jesus is the Son.
I know Jesus is the Holy Ghost
and all these three are One!


:choir

Wow, I never knew the verse, only the chorus and bridge. Another song we wore out and then some, over and over and over again...

[Orthodoxy]

Another song we wore out and then some, over and over and over again...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDowGCF-Yhs&feature=related

[Digging4Truth]

Nope, this isn't confusing at all!

So plain that well... if you can't see it you just don't have the revelation.



Without this revelation, you're more than likely not Apostolic, which means more than likely you're probably not saved, which means more than likely your time would be better spent not wasting your time writing songs that are going to send people to hell.

This song encourages an anti-Apostolic theological view of God!

The writer needs to beware-- probably already backslidden, poor deceived soul.

Since this line is, again, a near direct quote from the Bible itself... you don't feel even a little bit like you are denying the word of God yourself?

Is Jesus not the way to the father?
Is that not the word of God?

Why must we EVER feel a need to deny the word of God?

He quotes the word of God nearly verbatim in his song...
You want to scuttle the entire song because it quotes the word of God...

And he is a lost and decieved soul?

[Jermyn Davidson]

Anything that implies that Jesus Christ is not the Father is not traditional Apostolic doctrine and could cause doctrinal confusion in an Apostolic setting.


If their audience is Apostolic, then the writer needs to be sensitive to their audience, or simply find something else better to do-- like watch the parking lots while service is going on so that they can talk privately with their Heavenly Father.

[Digging4Truth]

Anything that implies that Jesus Christ is not the Father is not traditional Apostolic doctrine and could cause doctrinal confusion in an Apostolic setting.


If their Audience is Apostolic, then the writer needs to be sensitive to their audience, or simply find something else better to do-- like watch the parking lots while service is going on so that they can talk privately with their Heavenly Father.

Anything that denies the word of God is not for me.

Any doctrine that is not comfortable with the word of God needs to be re-examined.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Anything that denies the word of God is not for me.

Any doctrine that is not comfortable with the word of God needs to be re-examined.

Really?

Are you for real?

Where do you attend church again?

[Digging4Truth]

Really?

Are you for real?

Where do you attend church again?

So... you are saying then that...

You are comfortable with a doctrine that feels a need to deny the word of God?

No man can come to the Father but through whom?

Are you uncomfortable with that question or the answer thereof?

[Jermyn Davidson]

So... you are saying then that...

You are comfortable with a doctrine that feels a need to deny the word of God?

No man can come to the Father but through whom?

Are you uncomfortable with that question or the answer thereof?

I am not comfortable with a doctrine that feels the need to deny the Word of God-- which is why I have done what I have done.


The writer of that song may want to present the truth of that scripture in a way that does not contradict Apostolic doctrine-- maybe include some lyrics that repeatedly explain away the Biblical difference between the Father and the Son in a way that keeps all the Apostolics happy in their doctrine.

[Digging4Truth]

I am not comfortable with a doctrine that feels the need to deny the Word of God-- which is why I have done what I have done.


The writer of that song may want to present the truth of that scripture in a way that does not contradict Apostolic doctrine-- maybe include some lyrics that repeatedly explain away the Biblical difference between the Father and the Son in a way that keeps all the Apostolics happy in their doctrine.

Indeed many are happy to see what I have put in bold above.

I am not one of those.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Indeed many are happy to see what I have put in bold above.

I am not one of those.

Why not?

Does the bolded make you unhappy?

If so, why?

[Digging4Truth]

Why not?

Does the bolded make you unhappy?

If so, why?

Well... it doesn't make me unhappy. I remain happy. I'm a happy person.

But I do my best not to participate in or be a fan of anything that "explains away" any Biblical concept.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Well... it doesn't make me unhappy. I remain happy. I'm a happy person.

But I do my best not to participate in or be a fan of anything that "explains away" any Biblical concept.

Well that is what the writer of that song would have to do.

That's why it would just be better for the writer to throw away the song and watch the parking lots during service so that the writer can commune with his or her Heavenly Father.

If you're Apostolic, Jesus is the Father.

The last line of that song implies a different truth.

[Digging4Truth]

Well that is what the writer of that song would have to do.

That's why it would just be better for the writer to throw away the song and watch the parking lots during service so that the writer can commune with his or her Heavenly Father.

If you're Apostolic, Jesus is the Father.

The last line of that song implies a different truth.

Those words were penned by the apostles and were the actual words of Jesus. Those words define what is apostolic no matter what others may call themselves. The catholics call themself apostolic.

Like I taught in my sunday school lesson sunday... The word of God defines our doctrines... not vice versa.

And... I'm catching on that you are playing the apostolic's advocate here... so my post is not directed at you... but to you.

The words of the disciples define what is apostolic... anyone who stands by a definition that differs from their words is only apostolic in their own minds.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Those words were penned by the apostles and were the actual words of Jesus. Those words define what is apostolic no matter what others may call themselves. The catholics call themself apostolic.

Like I taught in my sunday school lesson sunday... The word of God defines our doctrines... not vice versa.

And... I'm catching on that you are playing the apostolic's advocate here... so my post is not directed at you... but to you.

The words of the disciples define what is apostolic... anyone who stands by a definition that differs from their words is only apostolic in their own minds.


Advocating in a tongue in cheek manner as I'm no longer Apostolic.

[Nitehawk013]

Those words were penned by the apostles and were the actual words of Jesus. Those words define what is apostolic no matter what others may call themselves. The catholics call themself apostolic.

Like I taught in my sunday school lesson sunday... The word of God defines our doctrines... not vice versa.And... I'm catching on that you are playing the apostolic's advocate here... so my post is not directed at you... but to you.

The words of the disciples define what is apostolic... anyone who stands by a definition that differs from their words is only apostolic in their own minds.

Unless one fully embraces Creedal or Folk Theology. In which case creeds and dogmas are equal or better than the Bible, even if they refuse to admit such.

[Digging4Truth]

Advocating in a tongue in cheek manner as I'm no longer Apostolic.

Yeah... I'm a little slow sometimes. But I eventually caught on. :)

[Digging4Truth]

Unless one fully embraces Creedal or Folk Theology. In which case creeds and dogmas are equal or better than the Bible, even if they refuse to admit such.

Yes sir... and it's more common than any would imagine.

[Orthodoxy]

Unless one fully embraces Creedal or Folk Theology. In which case creeds and dogmas are equal or better than the Bible, even if they refuse to admit such.

Yes sir... and it's more common than any would imagine.

Are you guys bashing my username and signature? :bigbaby I knew it would ruffle feathers.

;)

[Digging4Truth]

Are you guys bashing my username and signature? :bigbaby I knew it would ruffle feathers.

;)

No... we're pursuing it in it's purest sense. :)

[Jermyn Davidson]

Yeah... I'm a little slow sometimes. But I eventually caught on. :)

Sometimes?

[Digging4Truth]

Sometimes?

You have a point.

Most of the time.

Okay... okay... All the time. :)

[Jermyn Davidson]

You have a point.

Most of the time.

Okay... okay... All the time. :)

Just kiddin'

I was expecting some kind of response aimed at our past political discussions.

You know we usually agree on EVERYTHING politically....

:thumbsup

[Digging4Truth]

Just kiddin'

I was expecting some kind of response aimed at our past political discussions.

You know we usually agree on EVERYTHING politically....

:thumbsup

Absolutely...

We're political twins. :)


I just figured I gave you a hard time long enough on here before I caught on so I owed you some easy responses. :)

[Orthodoxy]

Is there anything wrong with the last line?

Do you think that it needs to be changed?

I'm not going to argue with that person... I'm not looking for ammo or anything. I just found it interesting that they wanted to change the wording and was wondering how y'all felt about whether it needed changing or not.

Here is another song Apostolics are uncomfortable with: "How Great Is our God," by Chris Tomlin. Some feel they need to change one word in the song.

Original version:
The Godhead, three in one,
Father, Spirit, Son

Modified oneness version:
The Godhead three are one,
Father, Spirit, Son

[Dagwood]

Here is another song Apostolics are uncomfortable with: "How Great Is our God," by Chris Tomlin. Some feel they need to change one word in the song.

Original version:
The Godhead, three in one,
Father, Spirit, Son

Modified oneness version:
The Godhead three are one,
Father, Spirit, Son

We sing it at church often, as written (Godhead three in one). After all, we're spirit-filled in Jesus' name. Why go to such extreme measures (there's that phrase again :) ) to scrutinize something so minor?

[Nitehawk013]

Are you guys bashing my username and signature? :bigbaby I knew it would ruffle feathers.

;)

Nope. Just commenting randomly.

Im in the middle of taking a really good, pretty in depth Systematic Theology course. So I notice when folks are grabbing a hold of Creddal theology or one of it's sister forms of theology. It's pretty good stuff.

[Orthodoxy]

Nope. Just commenting randomly.

Im in the middle of taking a really good, pretty in depth Systematic Theology course. So I notice when folks are grabbing a hold of Creddal theology or one of it's sister forms of theology. It's pretty good stuff.

Which systematic theology course are you taking?

Btw, Wayne Grudem has a free podcast on iTunes where he lectures through portions of his book.

http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/wayne-grudems-systematic-theology/id322844869

[Ferd]

I think it is silly and a bit insecure for oneness folk to want to change songs like this.

good grief it is biblical. get over it.

if you dont like it sing the machinegun song.


blather

[Digging4Truth]

I think it is silly and a bit insecure for oneness folk to want to change songs like this.

good grief it is biblical. get over it.

if you dont like it sing the machinegun song.


blather

Talk to me... what's the machine gun song?


Does it go ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah like a machine gun?

[Scott Hutchinson]

The lyric seems ok to me.

[Nitehawk013]

Which systematic theology course are you taking?

Btw, Wayne Grudem has a free podcast on iTunes where he lectures through portions of his book.

http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/wayne-grudems-systematic-theology/id322844869

I got it from a friend of mine at church. It is called TTP: The Theology Program. It is from Credo House/Reclaimingthemind.org.

The primary text book is Grudem's work. I liek them b/c the two teachers ont he videos are on opposite ends of many issues so you get both views. One is cessasionist, the other isn't. It's been pretty challenging so far. I am enjoying it a lot. Obviously I don't agree wiht everythign they have said, but it has made me have to really thinka dn re-think some positions. Sharpening the sword is always beneficial.

[TGBTG]

Here is another song Apostolics are uncomfortable with: "How Great Is our God," by Chris Tomlin. Some feel they need to change one word in the song.

Original version:
The Godhead, three in one,
Father, Spirit, Son

Modified oneness version:
The Godhead three are one,
Father, Spirit, Son

I sing the song as it is written. However, to go strictly biblical, it should be the modified version cos:

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

just sayin' folks...just sayin'...lol

[Nitehawk013]

Not doctrnial, but I like ho wwe always change the words of "He loves us" from "sloppy wet kiss" to any number of other words to avoid mentioning a wet kiss in church. LOL.

[TGBTG]

Not doctrnial, but I like ho wwe always change the words of "He loves us" from "sloppy wet kiss" to any number of other words to avoid mentioning a wet kiss in church. LOL.

I don't know this song. Could you post the lyrics?

[Nitehawk013]

John Mark McMillan "How He Loves"
He is jealous for me,
Loves like a hurricane, I am a tree,
Bending beneath the weight of his wind and mercy.
When all of a sudden,
I am unaware of these afflictions eclipsed by glory,
And I realise just how beautiful You are,
And how great Your affections are for me.

Pre-Chorus:
And oh, how He loves us so,
Oh how He loves us,
How He loves us all

Chorus 1:
Yeah, He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves.
Yeah, He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves.

Verse 2:
We are His portion and He is our prize,
Drawn to redemption by the grace in His eyes,
If grace is an ocean, we’re all sinking.
So Heaven meets earth like a sloppy wet kiss,And my heart turns violently inside of my chest,
I don’t have time to maintain these regrets,
When I think about, the way…

Find More lyrics at www.sweetslyrics.com
Chorus 2:
He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves us,
Oh how He loves.
Yeah, He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves.

Verse 3:
Well, I thought about You the day Steven died,
And You met me between my breaking.
I know that I still love You, God, despite the agony.
...They want to tell me You're cruel,
But if Stephen could sing, he'd say it's not true, cause...

Chorus 3:
Cause He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves us.
Whoa! how He loves us.
Whoa! how He loves.
Yeah, He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves.

[TGBTG]

John Mark McMillan "How He Loves"
He is jealous for me,
Loves like a hurricane, I am a tree,
Bending beneath the weight of his wind and mercy.
When all of a sudden,
I am unaware of these afflictions eclipsed by glory,
And I realise just how beautiful You are,
And how great Your affections are for me.

Pre-Chorus:
And oh, how He loves us so,
Oh how He loves us,
How He loves us all

Chorus 1:
Yeah, He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves.
Yeah, He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves.

Verse 2:
We are His portion and He is our prize,
Drawn to redemption by the grace in His eyes,
If grace is an ocean, we’re all sinking.
So Heaven meets earth like a sloppy wet kiss,And my heart turns violently inside of my chest,
I don’t have time to maintain these regrets,
When I think about, the way…

Find More lyrics at www.sweetslyrics.com
Chorus 2:
He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves us,
Oh how He loves.
Yeah, He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves.

Verse 3:
Well, I thought about You the day Steven died,
And You met me between my breaking.
I know that I still love You, God, despite the agony.
...They want to tell me You're cruel,
But if Stephen could sing, he'd say it's not true, cause...

Chorus 3:
Cause He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves us.
Whoa! how He loves us.
Whoa! how He loves.
Yeah, He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves us,
Whoa! how He loves.

what do you guys insert for "sloppy wet kiss"?

[Nitehawk013]

The most common I have heard is "unforeseen kiss". There are others though. Beautiful kiss, etc.

[TGBTG]

The most common I have heard is "unforeseen kiss". There are others though. Beautiful kiss, etc.

Haha...:heeheehee

[RandyWayne]

Ya, it is annoying when OP's change song lyrics but one of the worst isn't just an altered song, it is a whole NEW song -the infamous birthday song! While it has been many years since it has been an issue it got to the point where I put put my hand up to stop anyone who decided to start singing it.

[Timmy]

Ya, it is annoying when OP's change song lyrics but one of the worst isn't just an altered song, it is a whole NEW song -the infamous birthday song! While it has been many years since it has been an issue it got to the point where I put put my hand up to stop anyone who decided to start singing it.

It's not OP-specific. We used in the AG, too.

[TGBTG]

Ya, it is annoying when OP's change song lyrics but one of the worst isn't just an altered song, it is a whole NEW song -the infamous birthday song! While it has been many years since it has been an issue it got to the point where I put put my hand up to stop anyone who decided to start singing it.

which birthday song?

[Dagwood]

The most common I have heard is "unforeseen kiss". There are others though. Beautiful kiss, etc.

It's been a while since the last time we sang it. But, I believe "beautiful kiss" is what we've sung. Seems less distracting while in worship and the Spirit begins moving...

[Digging4Truth]

what do you guys insert for "sloppy wet kiss"?

We use unforeseen kiss.

[RandyWayne]

which birthday song?

It is sung in the language of Morder, which I will not utter here.

[RandyWayne]

It's not OP-specific. We used in the AG, too.

That surprises me. While I know the AG is strict, they were no where near UPC-strict as far as trying to be different just for the sake of being different (under the guise of "separation").

[Timmy]

That surprises me. While I know the AG is strict, they were no where near UPC-strict as far as trying to be different just for the sake of being different (under the guise of "separation").

You should have seen us 40 years ago. :lol