House churches/Organic church, your opinion?

[Amanah]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_church

Early Christian house churches
The Dura-Europos house church, ca. 232, with chapel area on right.The first house church is recorded in Acts 1:13, where the disciples of Jesus met together in the "Upper Room" of a house, traditionally believed to be where the Cenacle is today. For the first three centuries of the church, known as Early Christianity, Christians typically met in homes, if only because intermittent persecution (before the Edict of Milan in 313) did not allow the erection of public church buildings. Clement of Alexandria, an early church father, wrote of worshipping in a house. The Dura-Europos church, a private house in Dura-Europos in Syria, was excavated in the 1930s and was found to be used as a Christian meeting place in AD 232, with one small room serving as a baptistry.[2] At many points in subsequent history, various Christian groups worshipped in homes, often due to persecution by the state church or the civil government.

[edit] Scriptural basisChristians who meet together in homes usually do so because of a desire to return to basic Church meetings as found in the New Testament. The New Testament shows that the early Christian church exhibited a simplicity of fellowship and interactive practice that is typically not the case in conventional denominations. They believe that Christians walked closely with each other, in close fellowship, sharing their lives in Christ together. This is expressed by 50 examples of the phrase "one another" found in the New Testament. Some Bible passages that indicate the atmosphere of early church life include:

Lifestyle
"They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer." (Acts 2:42 New American Standard Bible (NASB))
Participatory meetings
"What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification." (1 Cor. 14:26 [NASB]; see also Colossians 3:16, Hebrews 10:24–25)
Meeting in homes
"Aquila and Prisca greet you heartily in the Lord, with the church that is in their house." (1 Cor. 16:19 NASB; see also Acts 20:20, Romans 16:5, Colossians 4:15, Philemon 1:2).
Networking through 'Extra-local, Itinerant Ministries'
"After some days Paul said to Barnabas, "Let us return and visit the brethren in every city in which we proclaimed the word of the Lord, and see how they are." (Acts 15:36 NASB)
Occasional Large Group Meetings
"I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly and from house to house" (Acts 20:20 NASB)
Jesus model
" For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them." (Matthew 18:20 [NIV])
[edit] Structure and organizationLeadership
Some assemblies have a conventional leadership structure; others have none. A commonly held belief in the modern-day house church "movement" is that the Protestant Reformation did not go far enough to demonstrate a New Testament belief in the "priesthood of all believers" and that Jesus Christ alone is the Head of the Church, and the believers the body. The absence of hierarchical leadership structures in many house churches, while often viewed by the Protestant church at large as a sign of anarchy or rebelliousness to authority, is viewed by many in the house church movement to be the most viable way to come under true spiritual authority of love, relationships, and the visible dominion of Jesus Christ as Head of his own bride (i.e. the church). This does not mean that they reject all leadership, however. Many house churches develop elders and deacons who serve the members. Some house churches also accept ministry from church planters and itinerant workers whom they consider to be apostles.

Meeting format
Many house church gatherings are free, informal, and sometimes include a shared meal. Participants hope that everyone present will feel free to contribute to the gathering as and when they sense the leading of the Holy Spirit to do so. Leadership structures range from no official leaders, to a plurality of appointed elders. There is a deliberate attempt within most house churches to minimize the leadership of any one person. Having a lone pastor is generally considered unscriptural and such meetings prefer an openly plural responsibility of leadership.

Networking
The house church movement today also owes much of its networking and exchange of information to the use of the Internet; HC is generally used as an abbreviation for "House Church" and IC is used to designate "Institutional Church", which is the generalized term for more traditional church structures, including a church building and/or sermon-centered church services directed by a pastor or minister. More recently local networks of house churches have begun to form, with gatherings of house churches in an area getting together periodically for celebrations.

[Amanah]

http://www.therebuilders.org/organicchurch.pdf

The Organic Church
WHAT IS IT EXACTLY?
The term “organic church” is often used as a synonym for "house church," "simple church," or "home church." But
this is not correct. There are huge differences between an authentic organic church and a group of people who
meet in a living room and call themselves a church.
Coined by T. Austin-Sparks, an "organic church" is a church that lives and gathers according to the spiritual reality
that the church (ekklesia) is a spiritual organism rather than an institutional organization.
FIVE MYTHS ABOUT ORGANIC CHURCHES
* In organic churches, nothing is organized and everything is spontaneous. Not so. Just as a physical body has a
specific expression and contains organization, so do organic churches. The members plan and arrange when and
how they meet. Such planning is completely consistent with spiritual life. God Himself plans and arranges.
* An organic church has no leadership. Not so. Leadership comes from every member of the body at different
times. Different people lead according to their different gifts and ministries. In the organic church, all are priests,
ministers, and functioning parts of the body just as the New Testament teaches. Leadership is open, participatory,
and fluid.
* Organic church is the same thing as post-church. Not so. Organic churches can be visited. They meet in real
locations on a regular basis. They aren't ghost churches. (Click here to read a critique of the post-church view.)
* Organic churches always meet in homes. Not so. While organic churches do not own or possess "sacred" religious
buildings, they can meet in any location. Whether a home, coffee shop, clubhouse, park, rented building, etc.
*Organic church is a unified movement. Not so. Many Christians use the word “organic church” to describe very
different expressions of church, even institutional churches. We’ve recommended some books and articles below
to help bring clarity to this term.
SEVEN CHARACTERISTICS OF AN ORGANIC CHURCH
* The members of the church are learning to live by the life of Jesus Christ together and are expressing that life in
tangible ways.
* The members are pursuing Jesus in their life together and sharing Him in their gatherings and community life.
* There is no clergy/laity divide. Every member functions and participates. All have different ministries and roles,
and all contribute in the ministry and decision-making.
* Jesus is the head in a real discernable way.
* The church has been founded on Christ, not a certain theological system, a set of practices, a method, or a
human personality. While God uses people to root the church in a real on-going relationship with Jesus, such
people point to Jesus rather than to themselves.
*The church is not a once-a-week meeting. The members of an organic church meet often. They live as a face-toface
community.
* The church stands for and seeks to fulfill God’s eternal purpose. They don’t meet for a special interest such as
evangelism, discipleship, social justice, spiritual gifts, church multiplication, but for God’s ultimate intention which
may include yet transcends all of these things.
Recommended Books to Learn More
* The Community Life of God - Milt Rodriguez
* Reimagining Church - Frank Viola
* The Priesthood of All Believers - Milt Rodriguez
* Finding Organic Church - Frank Viola
* God's Spiritual House - T. Austin-Sparks
* Pagan Christianity - George Barna and Frank Viola
* The Normal Christian Church Life - Watchman Nee
Recommended Websites on Organic Church
* The Rebuilders
* Reimagining Church
* House Church Resource
* Present Testimony Ministry
* Milt Rodriguez’s Blog
* Neil Cole and Frank Viola Discuss Missional Organic Church
* Articles on Missional Organic Church

[Digging4Truth]

Many... maybe most... are against the house church concept because what they have grown up in has shaped their concept of what church should be. Also because people have become used to a pre-prepared service where the sermon, the songs etc etc are already prepared by someone else and all they need do is show up and enjoy someone elses hard work.

And then if God shows up and moves they will respond... but not much involvement beyond that. There is a difference between responding to a move of God and giving in praise and worship before the move of God begins in a service.

Also... since people often work with a preconcieved notion about house church they find it easy to write those who house church off as rebels or people who can't or won't associate with "real church" people.

All of these things meet up to their desired opinion of something that doesn't fit in the tiny box of their own reality that they have learned to operated in and even keep God in.

Personally... I think house church is the way to go. It is not the way I am doing church right now because I am very involved in a modern church model and if my family were to leave the church then there wouldn't be many people left to do music, sunday school etc. We make up all the musicians... 2/3 of the sunday school teachers, we are the youth department heads and I preach when the pastor is gone so he can get away.

So... I have a battle between what I would like to do and what I feel a responsibility to continue to do.

[Truthseeker]

House church is only as good as the leadership.

[Digging4Truth]

House church is only as good as the leadership.

This is true of all forms of church... right?

[Dagwood]

A group of us tried the house church concept with the intent of being more community-outreach driven. It was an idea that was presented, but once we (my wife and I) realized the direction the group was going (totally the opposite of the idea mentioned above and one that the group as a whole decided on), we decided to withdraw from it and reconsider the corporate worship atmosphere.

The Bible doesn't give a clear definition for where the new testament church should meet. What it does say is not to forsake the assembling of ourselves. Whether it's in a traditional church building or in someone's home, as long as God is the center of it and the Bible is the core foundation of teaching, and God's direction is sought for the people gathering to be a witness to the world, I believe God will bless it and direct it as He sees fit...

[Scott Hutchinson]

http://abidinghouse.com/testimony/mytestimony.html

[Austin]

The original concept of the Gospel was to go out into the fields and byways and compel them to come in. The question is, into what? The gospel and kingdom of Christ of course.
When you read in the book of Acts how many were converted on the day of pentecost you might wonder what house did all of them fit into.
Needless to say, the early church did have organization and did meet at places where they could all come together in an assembly, which is clear when reading the book of Corinthians when Paul talks about being assembled together and the operation of the gifts of the spirit as well as the behavior of certain people within the assembly when it is together.
However to keep the church alive and to exhort the saints and others and to win souls and keep the teaching of jesus going, the apostles continued in going from house to house and utilizing the power of God to keep the church alive. The southern Baptist call that, Thursday night visitation:heeheehee
So my personal concept is the body of Christ should be under the doctrinal truth and should have a place to assemble since that is something that is more readily available now then it was then. It also allows strangers to come in if they wish and hear the word.
However, there should be a ministry among the believers, especially those who are the foundation of that work.
My daughter has a church were she and the ladies meet for bible study and prayer during the middle of the week, and they also have church functions which they attend and are a part of. This she says is very uplifting to her, not just the bible and prayer, but the fellowship among those who are like family to her now.
Our problem today is some churches have lost the vision of that early church. Some are too large and distant with each other, some are not real and don't follow the truth of jesus in practice and faith. Many. many reason to be discouraged and want something closer and better.
One lesson I have learned in life is to surround yourself with believers who you can fellowship with concerning the bible and Jesus, it is a very edifying experience.

[Scott Hutchinson]

The early church met in homes so I'm cool with it.

[Scott Hutchinson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvJR_SIiPl4

[TGBTG]

The early church met in homes so I'm cool with it.

The early church met at 312 Azusa Street Los Angeles California







:happydance

[Aquila]

I belong to a very large church that is a network of house churches that has two hubs. One hub is on the edge of Centerville Ohio and the other in Xenia Ohio (a newer work). We have between 2 and 3 thousand members (I believe) and the entire church is a "network of community churches" (house churches). We have well over a 100 registered house churches and branches that aren't necessarily on the books. The house church I attended for most of this year was very "Reformed". I moved across town and found an affiliated house church just five minutes away from my house. It's a great house church. However, the elder is Arminian! He, Ryan, has a background in the Assemblies of God and the Church of God. While the church is registered "Southern Baptist" and the senior pastor is a "Reformed Baptist", I'm learning that each house church is different. When I questioned Ryan on his Arminian position and how well he gets along with the other elders who are Reformed (like my previous house church elder) he laughed and explained that the Reformed vs. Arminian debate is considered an "in family" discussion and disagreement. The longer I'm with this church the more I like it's spirit of love and unity.

Here's a video about the church network I'm currently attending:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLSkWrypu3Y

[Aquila]

I LOVE HOUSE CHURCH!!! lol :)

[Scott Hutchinson]

The early church met at 312 Azusa Street Los Angeles California







:happydance

The Christian church existed long before Azusa Street.

[ThePastorsCoach]

I LOVE House Churches (gatherings, fellowships, networks meetings, groups, communions, love fests or what ever you call them) because they keep most of the really weird people (that don't believe in Church) away from our church! I highly recommend them to some on this forum! ;-)

[Aquila]

I LOVE House Churches (gatherings, fellowships, networks meetings, groups, communions, love fests or what ever you call them) because they keep most of the really weird people (that don't believe in Church) away from our church! I highly recommend them to some on this forum! ;-)

LOL

[Scott Hutchinson]

To me where the church congregates is not important,however alot of the house church groups do have some biblical concepts such as using funds to help the poor and such,and doing away with the clergy laity rank structure error.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Buildings are not the church,the church is the redeemed.

[Aquila]

The Bible (I Corinthians 14:26-38) illustrates that our meetings should have the following elements and guiding principles:

- Everyone being able to bring a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation.
- Gift of tongues coupled with interpretation, two or at most three.
- Two or three anointed teachers speak and guide the meeting.
- If a saint attending has a revelation or something to share, whoever is speaking must stop and give them the floor so that all might be able to prophesy, learn, and be encouraged. Meetings are to be discussion based.
- Those who address the group must realize that their spirits are subject to the anointed teachers guiding the group.
- Women (or anyone for that matter) are not to use the time for socializing.
- Those who think they are spiritual Christians should acknowledge that this order is command from the Lord.

If our "form of church" will not allow for these kinds of meetings... we are failing to meet as the Apostle Paul admonished us to meet. It doesn't matter if it's in a house, a park, a coffee shop, a library, a book store, a bus stop, a town square, church building or wherever. The point is that the above elements should be present. They are to be elder guided and interactive meetings where anyone present can address the group by sharing a song, a hymn, a poem, a passage, a testimony, or whatever the Lord leads. If a meeting is too big to facilitate this, it fails to allow for the body ministry Paul admonishes us to have because it is a "command from the Lord" (I Corinthians 14:37).

For example, on any given Sunday when a given pastor is speaking... could I ask to speak and share a word that the Lord has placed on my heart? Could you in turn share what passage has been ministering to you and what the Lord put on your heart? If I had a question could I interrupt the pastor's sermon to seek an answer? Could the entire congregation do any of this? Or would the pastor be upset because he was interrupted and he didn't get to "preach a sermon"? Would there by too many people to allow for such an open and interactive meeting? Would we be relegated to being relatively passive spectators who hopefully learn something? If so... your church is most likely too big to abide by I Corinthians 14:26-38. I believe that home fellowship groups (or house churches) fulfill this calling of Scripture.

It's the BIBLICAL way to do church.

We've had house church (simple church) gatherings at coffee shops (Tim Horton's, Higher Grounds, and Boston Stoker's) in the Dayton Ohio, Tipp City area. Place and building don't matter. The fuction of our gatherings is what matters.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I could see where people could feel more connected in a house setting rather than feeling lost in the shuffle in a mega church setting.

[Aquila]

I could see where people could feel more connected in a house setting rather than feeling lost in the shuffle in a mega church setting.

The question is... what does the Bible say our meetings should be like? What is the purpose of our gatherings? To hear a "sermon" or to fellowship and learn God's will for our lives?

[Nitehawk013]

I continue to be intrigued by House Church. I do however think that some combination of the two, house church and traditional church, would be the best all around form of both reaching the lost as well as rooting and growing the saints.

I am looking into getting a work started in a small local town where there is no Apostolic church. My desire is to see it start as small home bible study/home church meetings and then, if the groups desire it, perhaps go the route of getting a building for larger gatherings. That would be well down the road obviously. I never want it to become just another traditional church. I think the community aspect of christianity is hindered by the traditional church. I think home church meetings create a far better atmosphere of community and family within the body.

[Digging4Truth]

I continue to be intrigued by House Church. I do however think that some combination of the two, house church and traditional church, would be the best all around form of both reaching the lost as well as rooting and growing the saints.

Most house churches do run a combination of the two. Regular meetings take place in individual homes but the local house churches in the area network with one another and, on occasion, the network of house churches will get together for celebration services where they all come together in one place and worship corporately.

[Aquila]

The church I attend is a "hybrid". We have a large corporate service on Sundays at the main campus and our "midweek" services are conducted in our house churches. What sets "house church" apart from other "cell group" and "home fellowship groups" is leadership. Our house churches are led by qualified elders. Counsel, baptisms, marriages, and church measures of discipline are handled in the house church setting. If an issue of church discipline becomes too serious it's escalated to the elders of the entire fellowship and a person can be "disfellowshipped". Then all the house church elders in the network are admonished not to take the individual in unless they have shown what is believed to be a genuine attitude of repentance. Essentially... the central gathering could be cancelled indefinitely and our house churches would continue to meet and grow. The Sunday service is primarily for expository teaching and worship (celebration). All this year we've been covering the Gospel of John. We're only in chapter 8 right now. It's estimated that it will take two years to complete this Gospel. My previous house church was studying through Hebrews (verse by verse) and my current house church is focusing on the book of Acts (verse by verse). It's been very enlightening, especially with open discussion on the material. :)

Here's a silly video of our Sunday gathering. Pastor Rob Turner is having fun and trying to get the people to wake up. lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPV8GFe--uk

[Digging4Truth]

I am looking into getting a work started in a small local town where there is no Apostolic church. My desire is to see it start as small home bible study/home church meetings and then, if the groups desire it, perhaps go the route of getting a building for larger gatherings. That would be well down the road obviously. I never want it to become just another traditional church. I think the community aspect of christianity is hindered by the traditional church. I think home church meetings create a far better atmosphere of community and family within the body.

This is another thing that calls to me to begin a house church in my area. I live in a town with no apostolic church. My wife bought a Kirby vacuum cleaner from a lady the other day who goes to a local denominal church and she said she longs for a church where she can raise her hands and amen the preacher. She wants to go to a church where she can feel free.

The church we go to is 30 minutes away. So I leave a perfectly ripe field every time I go to service and drive to a place where there is a church to be a part of that.

There are no apostolic church for 30 minutes any direction I travel from the town that I live in.

[Aquila]

This is another thing that calls to me to begin a house church in my area. I live in a town with no apostolic church. My wife bought a Kirby vacuum cleaner from a lady the other day who goes to a local denominal church and she said she longs for a church where she can raise her hands and amen the preacher. She wants to go to a church where she can feel free.

The church we go to is 30 minutes away. So I leave a perfectly ripe field every time I go to service and drive to a place where there is a church to be a part of that.

There are no apostolic church for 30 minutes any direction I travel from the town that I live in.

Great book on this:

http://www.amazon.com/Starting-House-Church-Model-Living/dp/0830743650

Also,

http://www.amazon.com/Making-Small-Groups-Work-Leader/dp/0310250285/ref=sr_1_9?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1319564376&sr=1-9

Go in Christ!

[Amanah]

have you read this one Aquila?

http://www.amazon.com/Pagan-Christianity-Exploring-Church-Practices/dp/1596446315/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1319564613&sr=1-1

[Nitehawk013]

This is another thing that calls to me to begin a house church in my area. I live in a town with no apostolic church. My wife bought a Kirby vacuum cleaner from a lady the other day who goes to a local denominal church and she said she longs for a church where she can raise her hands and amen the preacher. She wants to go to a church where she can feel free.

The church we go to is 30 minutes away. So I leave a perfectly ripe field every time I go to service and drive to a place where there is a church to be a part of that.

There are no apostolic church for 30 minutes any direction I travel from the town that I live in.

This town is only about 15 minutes from our church via the highway. I am of the opinion we ought to "go" and take the gospel to other cities rather than expect everyone to come to us though. My Pastor would disagree. He wants me to go there and then work on bringing the people back here. If I go with the backing of our church, I would feel obligated to do just that. If i go on my own, I am not looking forward to feeling like an outsider to those i have been in church with for 17 years. I am praying about what steps to take next. God will show the right path to take.

[Aquila]

have you read this one Aquila?

http://www.amazon.com/Pagan-Christianity-Exploring-Church-Practices/dp/1596446315/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1319564613&sr=1-1

YES! Great book.

Revolution and Revolutionary Parenting are also excellent resources by Barna. ;)

[Aquila]

This town is only about 15 minutes from our church via the highway. I am of the opinion we ought to "go" and take the gospel to other cities rather than expect everyone to come to us though. My Pastor would disagree. He wants me to go there and then work on bringing the people back here. If I go with the backing of our church, I would feel obligated to do just that. If i go on my own, I am not looking forward to feeling like an outsider to those i have been in church with for 17 years. I am praying about what steps to take next. God will show the right path to take.

You could always saturate the issue with prayer and then approach your pastor about starting a house church during the week. Part of the objective could be to encourage those you reach to attend your Pastor's service on Sunday with you. That way the vision God gave both of you can bloom as God leads.

[Digging4Truth]

This town is only about 15 minutes from our church via the highway. I am of the opinion we ought to "go" and take the gospel to other cities rather than expect everyone to come to us though. My Pastor would disagree. He wants me to go there and then work on bringing the people back here. If I go with the backing of our church, I would feel obligated to do just that. If i go on my own, I am not looking forward to feeling like an outsider to those i have been in church with for 17 years. I am praying about what steps to take next. God will show the right path to take.

There is no surer path than that my friend.

[Nitehawk013]

I have considered that as well.

I have a hang up in that however. It may be petty of me, but I REALLY have an issue with tithing doctrine. My Pastor is a diehard "You'll go to hell if you don't tithe" type. I disagree with that whole heartedly.

So how can I go and try to win souls and then introduce thwem to a church that will then tell them they will go to hell if they don't hand over 10%+ of thier income? I'm not sure I can do it.

[Aquila]

I have considered that as well.

I have a hang up in that however. It may be petty of me, but I REALLY have an issue with tithing doctrine. My Pastor is a diehard "You'll go to hell if you don't tithe" type. I disagree with that whole heartedly.

So how can I go and try to win souls and then introduce thwem to a church that will then tell them they will go to hell if they don't hand over 10%+ of thier income? I'm not sure I can do it.

Well... it sounds a bit complicated for you. You have to be true to your convictions. You might want to go "independent" focusing on "family church" for a while with your family. Read the materials I suggested. They can help you.

Remember, your salvation isn't predicated upon attending a building. It's predicated upon your union with Christ through the Holy Ghost. Be an "incarnation of Christ" (for lack of a better term). Christ desires you to be one with Him, an extention of Himself. You are a son. Walk in that authority and understanding. You'll need your family to believe in the vision God's given you 100%. If they don't, they'll suffer in the transition and you'll become very frustrated... and spiritual damage with all parties could result. You might want to "frequent" a local assembly once a week to keep a "fresh perspective". Don't get rooted there if you don't intend on staying. Me and a friend of mine essentially have a metro-church where I work. A simple gathering of a handful of believers that meet during lunch when we can to encourage, share scripture, and pray for one another. It's nice. So you can start at work, in a coffee shop, etc.... and invite people to your home. Remember... FOOD is a central piece in house church fellowship. Always break bread. Often people will come over for dinner and Bible study where they will not attend a church building. But friend... that's a house church. House church isn't a scaled down model of the institutional church. Your goal is to give away leadership... not have it. Build spiritual leaders. It's not a corporation or an organization... it's a "family". The family is the model for house church. Elders are like the elders (fathers and grandfathers) of a family. Those who attend are brothers and sisters. House church isn't to be a manditory "meeting". It's a time of togetherness that's encouraged. Also, your house church doesn't have "members". Use the term differently than the traditional church. You have "brothers and sisters". Let them come and go at will. Many might attend a traditional church somewhere but get their fellowsip needs met in your house church. Encourage their growth in Christ... don't emphasize house church vs. traditional church. Your home is a place of refuge along the path of their spiritual journey... not the end of it. There will therefore be a flow. If a house church begins to get "members" and solidifies with the same faces... it could get real stagnate.

Go in Christ!

[Nitehawk013]

That is the way I look at it already. I would ideally have a house church primarily, with the hopes that down the road someday, if the members of the houses wanted, we could perhaps get a building specifically for our larger gatherings and perhaps a once a week or so "corporate" service that would be more traditional in nature. It would provide a regular connection to the other house members and allow for the "feel" of larger meeting sthat we do all enjoy for the most part. I see the benefit of both styles of church. I liek your hybrid idea that you said you currently attend.

I also feel that if members prefer the traditional church they should be able to go to a traditional church and not feel bad about it. I wish the traditional church leaders wouldn't act like those who prefer house church or small groups are just rebellious or anti-social church haters. We are all the body, and the body should accomodate all types.

I would like to maintain fellowship and friendliness with my home church and other traditional churches in the area. I don't fear proseletizing or "sheep stealing". I don't believe in those terms. They aren't your sheep or my sheep! They are God's sheep! If God leads someone to a traditional church for a season then they should be free to go there and not be shunned by the church they may have moved on from.

The territorialism in the traditional church format makes me kinda sick. If someone feel sit is better for their soul and their family to go elsewhere, evenif it is a house church, then a real man of God wouldn't pitch a fit and act like the new Pastor was stealing somethign from him.

Ok..that was a bit of rambling. My apologies.

[TGBTG]

That is the way I look at it already. I would ideally have a house church primarily, with the hopes that down the road someday, if the members of the houses wanted, we could perhaps get a building specifically for our larger gatherings and perhaps a once a week or so "corporate" service that would be more traditional in nature. It would provide a regular connection to the other house members and allow for the "feel" of larger meeting sthat we do all enjoy for the most part. I see the benefit of both styles of church. I liek your hybrid idea that you said you currently attend.

I also feel that if members prefer the traditional church they should be able to go to a traditional church and not feel bad about it. I wish the traditional church leaders wouldn't act like those who prefer house church or small groups are just rebellious or anti-social church haters. We are all the body, and the body should accomodate all types.

I would like to maintain fellowship and friendliness with my home church and other traditional churches in the area. I don't fear proseletizing or "sheep stealing". I don't believe in those terms. They aren't your sheep or my sheep! They are God's sheep! If God leads someone to a traditional church for a season then they should be free to go there and not be shunned by the church they may have moved on from.

The territorialism in the traditional church format makes me kinda sick. If someone feel sit is better for their soul and their family to go elsewhere, evenif it is a house church, then a real man of God wouldn't pitch a fit and act like the new Pastor was stealing somethign from him.

Ok..that was a bit of rambling. My apologies.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Digging4Truth]

That is the way I look at it already. I would ideally have a house church primarily, with the hopes that down the road someday, if the members of the houses wanted, we could perhaps get a building specifically for our larger gatherings and perhaps a once a week or so "corporate" service that would be more traditional in nature. It would provide a regular connection to the other house members and allow for the "feel" of larger meeting sthat we do all enjoy for the most part. I see the benefit of both styles of church. I liek your hybrid idea that you said you currently attend.

I also feel that if members prefer the traditional church they should be able to go to a traditional church and not feel bad about it. I wish the traditional church leaders wouldn't act like those who prefer house church or small groups are just rebellious or anti-social church haters. We are all the body, and the body should accomodate all types.

I would like to maintain fellowship and friendliness with my home church and other traditional churches in the area. I don't fear proseletizing or "sheep stealing". I don't believe in those terms. They aren't your sheep or my sheep! They are God's sheep! If God leads someone to a traditional church for a season then they should be free to go there and not be shunned by the church they may have moved on from.

The territorialism in the traditional church format makes me kinda sick. If someone feel sit is better for their soul and their family to go elsewhere, evenif it is a house church, then a real man of God wouldn't pitch a fit and act like the new Pastor was stealing somethign from him.

Ok..that was a bit of rambling. My apologies.

Excellent thoughts.

[Aquila]

That is the way I look at it already. I would ideally have a house church primarily, with the hopes that down the road someday, if the members of the houses wanted, we could perhaps get a building specifically for our larger gatherings and perhaps a once a week or so "corporate" service that would be more traditional in nature. It would provide a regular connection to the other house members and allow for the "feel" of larger meeting sthat we do all enjoy for the most part. I see the benefit of both styles of church. I liek your hybrid idea that you said you currently attend.

I also feel that if members prefer the traditional church they should be able to go to a traditional church and not feel bad about it. I wish the traditional church leaders wouldn't act like those who prefer house church or small groups are just rebellious or anti-social church haters. We are all the body, and the body should accomodate all types.

I would like to maintain fellowship and friendliness with my home church and other traditional churches in the area. I don't fear proseletizing or "sheep stealing". I don't believe in those terms. They aren't your sheep or my sheep! They are God's sheep! If God leads someone to a traditional church for a season then they should be free to go there and not be shunned by the church they may have moved on from.

The territorialism in the traditional church format makes me kinda sick. If someone feel sit is better for their soul and their family to go elsewhere, evenif it is a house church, then a real man of God wouldn't pitch a fit and act like the new Pastor was stealing somethign from him.

Ok..that was a bit of rambling. My apologies.

A can honestly see how you feel and I agree. The reason why so many pastors appear to be territorial is the result of bad theology (sheperding movement) and perhaps a side effect of the institutional system itself... because they need members and money to keep the system alive. Without it... they have to close the door and seek employment elswhere. Sadly, they need our money. And sadly, many good men and women of God are in a trap where they must ask for it or go under. They are essentially slaves to their own system. :(

As for house churches being accepted... you might want to read Wolfgang Simson's, Houses That Change the World (.pdf copies are free off the net). It outlines how seriously Christians with the house church conviction have been persecuted down through the ages.

[Amanah]

I'm stepping out of bounds here with this thought no doubt, but, I'm betting when people represent a source of income to you, that is where you begin to get very possessive of them, particularly if you have big mortgages on church and home.

[Truthseeker]

I LOVE House Churches (gatherings, fellowships, networks meetings, groups, communions, love fests or what ever you call them) because they keep most of the really weird people (that don't believe in Church) away from our church! I highly recommend them to some on this forum! ;-)


House church people do believe in church. I've seen quite a few weirdos in traditional church settings.

[Digging4Truth]

A can honestly see how you feel and I agree. The reason why so many pastors appear to be territorial is the result of bad theology (sheperding movement) and perhaps a side effect of the institutional system itself... because they need members and money to keep the system alive. Without it... they have to close the door and seek employment elswhere. Sadly, they need our money. And sadly, many good men and women of God are in a trap where they must ask for it or go under. They are essentially slaves to their own system. :(

As for house churches being accepted... you might want to read Wolfgang Simson's, Houses That Change the World (.pdf copies are free off the net). It outlines how seriously Christians with the house church conviction have been persecuted down through the ages.

Yep...

And I've been involved with a number of home missions works across 3 states. I was never the pastor... I was just often called on to help get such works started. The part that was always so disheartening to me was this...

As SOON as there were enough people to put a load of a monthly rent off we went to a store front. And then as SOON as there were enough people to buy a place and burden them under a mortgage note off we went to a building.

I'm not against anybody who does church the modern way... under my current circumstances I do it myself... but I just don't see where God ever created a system that had to be maintained with monthly monetary flow. The only consistent monetary load there should be on a church is that of ministering to the various members and their needs. Reaching out to one another and helping as we see fit.

Some places have unbelievable monthly outgo and I think it's just a shame.

[Digging4Truth]

House church people do believe in church. I've seen quite a few weirdos in traditional church settings.

Yeah... it's hard to know how to take AB.

It's hard to tell if he is speaking tongue in cheek or hand against cheek.


Largely because one time he is speaking tongue in cheek... and the next time he isn't.

[Aquila]

I believe that it will get to the point wherein to preserve one's very soul, they'll have to have learned to walk with God relatively alone.

[Amanah]

I believe that it will get to the point wherein to preserve one's very soul, they'll have to have learned to walk with God relatively alone.

Aquila, how can that be when the bible tells us to assemble ourselves together?

[Aquila]

Aquila, how can that be when the bible tells us to assemble ourselves together?

The Bible tells us not to "forsake" the assembling of ourselves. However, there are situations wherein believers are scattered and unable to fellowship accept in specific times and places. That's why I said that I believe the days will come when believers must have learned "to walk with God relatively alone".

I firmly believe that all one needs is a gathering of two or more solid believers...

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Frankly, a "family church" (husband, wife, and children) is all that is necessary to have Christian fellowship, minister, and study the Scriptures. Remember, there were times when Christians lived on the frontier and didn't attend a church (or chapel) but maybe once a month in the Spring, Summer, and Fall when the circuit riding preacher road in. The rest of the time they gathered for "family altar", prayed, and studied the Word together.

Sadly, when we threw out the doctrine of the Priesthood of Believers we raised a generation of spiritually immature fathers and mothers who couldn't spiritually govern their homes if unable to attend a traditional service.

[ThePastorsCoach]

Amen! Stop Tithing now and go to a house assembly, gathering, networking, uh...commune, love fest, family Christian frontier movement or whatever you call it just don't call it a CHURCH for goodness sakes. We all know millions have been so deceived by putting the word CHURCH on a sign or calling a building a CHURCH because they are deceived that God lives there. Run from anything that looks like a "Church" or a religious institution where Christian people gather to Worship God! RUN TO THE HOUSE!!! Leave those churches to the deceived ones that think GOD ALMIGHTY lives in the Sunday School rooms and sleeps on the pews!
I think most that have posted on here need to make that decision now. I know some pastors and church people that will Thank God Almighty they are FREE at Last of the Houser's!

[Aquila]

Amen! Stop Tithing now and go to a house assembly, gathering, networking, uh...commune, love fest, family Christian frontier movement or whatever you call it just don't call it a CHURCH for goodness sakes. We all know millions have been so deceived by putting the word CHURCH on a sign or calling a building a CHURCH because they are deceived that God lives there. Run from anything that looks like a "Church" or a religious institution where Christian people gather to Worship God! RUN TO THE HOUSE!!! Leave those churches to the deceived ones that think GOD ALMIGHTY lives in the Sunday School rooms and sleeps on the pews!
I think most that have posted on here need to make that decision now. I know some pastors and church people that will Thank God Almighty they are FREE at Last of the Houser's!

LOL

I know that many fear house churches. However, I wouldn't mock such prophetic movement if I were them. Also... please note... God works in simple and humble houses throughout the NT.

Housechurches in the Bible
”God does not dwell in temples made with hands
(Acts 17:24)
Woflgang Simson

This booklet cannot provide an extensive biblical study of the subject, there are other
works which have done just that extensively, like ”The Church in Thy House” by Dr.
Met Castillo or ”The Church in The House” by Bob Fitts. A short overview reveals,
that not only individuals, but whole houses are recipients of the Gospel.

Matthew 10: 14 ”And as you enter the house, give it your greeting. ”And if the house
is worthy, let your greeting of peace come upon it; but if it is not worthy, let your
greeting of peace return to you. ”And whoever does not receive you, nor heed your
words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake off the dust of your feet.”

Luke 10:5 ”And whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace be to this house.’”

Luke 10:7 ”And stay in that house, eating and drinking what they give you; for the
laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not go from house to house.”

Acts 10:22 ”And they said, ‘Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man
well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel
to send for you to come to his house and hear a message from you.’”

Acts 10:30 ”And Cornelius said, ‘Four days ago to this hour, I was praying in my
house during the ninth hour; and behold, a man stood before me in shining
garments.’”

Acts 16:15 ”And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us,
saying, ‘If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and
stay.’”

Acts 16:32 ”And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were
in his house.”

Pentecost happened in a house
Acts 2:2 ”And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent, rushing wind,
and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.”
Christians regularly meet in homes

Acts 2:46 ”And day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking
bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and
sincerity of heart”

Acts 5:42 ”And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they kept right on
teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.”

Acts 8:3 ”But Saul began ravaging the church, entering house after house; and
dragging off men and women, he would put them in prison.”

Acts 9:11 ”And the Lord said to him, ‘Arise and go to the street called Straight, and
inquire at the house of Judas for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is
praying.’”

Acts 12:12 ”And when he realized this, he went to the house of Mary, the mother of
John who was also called Mark, where many were gathered together and were
praying.”

Acts 16:40 ”And they went out of the prison and entered the house of Lydia, and
when they saw the brethren, they encouraged them and departed.”

Acts 18:7 ”And he departed from there and went to the house of a certain man named
Titius Justus, a worshipper of God, whose house was next to the synagogue.”

Acts 20:20 ”I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and
teaching you publicly and from house to house.”

Acts 21:8 ”And on the next day we departed and came to Caesarea; and entering the
house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, we stayed with him.”

Romans 16:5 ”also greet the church that is in their house. Greet Epaenetus, my
beloved, who is the first convert to Christ from Asia.”

1 Cor. 16:19 ”The churches of Asia greet you. Aquila and Prisca greet you heartily in
the Lord, with the church that is in their house.”

Col. 4:15 ”Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea and also Nympha and the church
that is in her house.”

1 Tim. 5:13-14 ”And at the same time they also learn to be idle, as they go around
from house to house; and not merely idle, but also gossips and busybodies, talking
about things not proper to mention.”

Philemon 1:2 ”and to Apphia our sister, and to Archippus our fellow soldier, and to
the church in your house”

2 John 1:10 ”If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive
him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;”

Ever wonder why the Spirit filled first century church was able to spread like wildfire??? They didn't nail themselves down to material buildings.

[Scott Hutchinson]

http://anorganicfaith.wordpress.com/category/organic-christianity/

[Truthseeker]

LOL

I know that many fear house churches. However, I wouldn't mock such prophetic movement if I were them. Also... please note... God works in simple and humble houses throughout the NT.

Housechurches in the Bible
”God does not dwell in temples made with hands
(Acts 17:24)
Woflgang Simson

This booklet cannot provide an extensive biblical study of the subject, there are other
works which have done just that extensively, like ”The Church in Thy House” by Dr.
Met Castillo or ”The Church in The House” by Bob Fitts. A short overview reveals,
that not only individuals, but whole houses are recipients of the Gospel.

Matthew 10: 14 ”And as you enter the house, give it your greeting. ”And if the house
is worthy, let your greeting of peace come upon it; but if it is not worthy, let your
greeting of peace return to you. ”And whoever does not receive you, nor heed your
words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake off the dust of your feet.”

Luke 10:5 ”And whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace be to this house.’”

Luke 10:7 ”And stay in that house, eating and drinking what they give you; for the
laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not go from house to house.”

Acts 10:22 ”And they said, ‘Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man
well spoken of by the entire nation of the Jews, was divinely directed by a holy angel
to send for you to come to his house and hear a message from you.’”

Acts 10:30 ”And Cornelius said, ‘Four days ago to this hour, I was praying in my
house during the ninth hour; and behold, a man stood before me in shining
garments.’”

Acts 16:15 ”And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us,
saying, ‘If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and
stay.’”

Acts 16:32 ”And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were
in his house.”

Pentecost happened in a house
Acts 2:2 ”And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent, rushing wind,
and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.”
Christians regularly meet in homes

Acts 2:46 ”And day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking
bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and
sincerity of heart”

Acts 5:42 ”And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they kept right on
teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ.”

Acts 8:3 ”But Saul began ravaging the church, entering house after house; and
dragging off men and women, he would put them in prison.”

Acts 9:11 ”And the Lord said to him, ‘Arise and go to the street called Straight, and
inquire at the house of Judas for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is
praying.’”

Acts 12:12 ”And when he realized this, he went to the house of Mary, the mother of
John who was also called Mark, where many were gathered together and were
praying.”

Acts 16:40 ”And they went out of the prison and entered the house of Lydia, and
when they saw the brethren, they encouraged them and departed.”

Acts 18:7 ”And he departed from there and went to the house of a certain man named
Titius Justus, a worshipper of God, whose house was next to the synagogue.”

Acts 20:20 ”I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and
teaching you publicly and from house to house.”

Acts 21:8 ”And on the next day we departed and came to Caesarea; and entering the
house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, we stayed with him.”

Romans 16:5 ”also greet the church that is in their house. Greet Epaenetus, my
beloved, who is the first convert to Christ from Asia.”

1 Cor. 16:19 ”The churches of Asia greet you. Aquila and Prisca greet you heartily in
the Lord, with the church that is in their house.”

Col. 4:15 ”Greet the brethren who are in Laodicea and also Nympha and the church
that is in her house.”

1 Tim. 5:13-14 ”And at the same time they also learn to be idle, as they go around
from house to house; and not merely idle, but also gossips and busybodies, talking
about things not proper to mention.”

Philemon 1:2 ”and to Apphia our sister, and to Archippus our fellow soldier, and to
the church in your house”

2 John 1:10 ”If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive
him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;”

Ever wonder why the Spirit filled first century church was able to spread like wildfire??? They didn't nail themselves down to material buildings.

From the tithing thread, AB doesn't seem like a discuss scripture type guy.

[Aquila]

God is always ahead of the enemy. If house churching is exploding as quickly as Barna and others are saying it is... I think the real question should be... Why is God essentially drawing believers away from institutionalized religion?

I believe something terrible might be on the horizon. It may be that when this comes upon us, the institutional churches will compromise or be scattered to the four winds. The house church will survive whatever this might be.

That's just MY personal observation and personal concern.

[Aquila]

Oh yeah!!!

1 Cor. 16:19 ”The churches of Asia greet you. Aquila and Prisca greet you heartily in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.”

:shockamoo

[Amanah]

you need to find a woman named Priscilla :family

[Aquila]

Jesus said:

Matthew 23:11
But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

The Institutional Church Pastor:
:preach

The House Church Pastor:
:bbq

lol

[trialedbyfire]

I'm not for it, I'm not against it. I've been to many home ministries. Many churches within the DC DEL MD Council of the PAW started in homes and nproggressed to church buildings. My problem is when people get dogmatic and claim that "the true" and "organic" form of worship occured in homes. Yes we know christians in the Apostolic era often held services in homes. Could this be because of persecution and the culture of the day? 100% absolutely. I worship in a building under a pastor. So do 900 other people at my church. I wouldn't try to fit them all in my pastor's house.

[trialedbyfire]

God is always ahead of the enemy. If house churching is exploding as quickly as Barna and others are saying it is... I think the real question should be... Why is God essentially drawing believers away from institutionalized religion?

I believe something terrible might be on the horizon. It may be that when this comes upon us, the institutional churches will compromise or be scattered to the four winds. The house church will survive whatever this might be.

That's just MY personal observation and personal concern.

It may be so. I also must question though whether or not this is ACTUALLY what God is doing. I don't believe God is drawing believers away from "institutionalized religion". There is one Lord, and one Faith, and one Baptism. I believe however some of the man made denominations and organizations are being rocked and shaken up. I'm guilty of denominationalism myself. I've often times been in fear that I may not be able to operate outside of the traditional organizational structure.

My whole Christian walk I've been in one of three organizations (PCAF, COOLJC, and now PAW) I know all the politics, the dirty gossip, the structure, the order, the pomp, the circumstance and sometimes I recognize that some of this stuff does hinder God because it exalts man, and God had beat my behind for getting wrapped up in it, because as soon as persecuation befalls the church, it's all over. Like you said alot of these organizations/denominations are compromising and falling away. True believers can't go with them. I'll go that far with you.:thumbsup

[ThePastorsCoach]

Uhhhh...Do you mean the Church of God is NOT the Church of God and the Assembly of God is NOT the Assembly of God and the Church of Jesus Christ is not really (according to our brilliant Houser's) the Church of Jesus Christ and the "churches" are emptying out and going to peoples houses to sing Kumbya, drink coffee and have Yankee Casseroles and Goulash? WOW!
Amazing that we are having to add 2000 more seats to our already 3800 seat auditorium that we pack out every Sunday with two (9AM & 11AM) services & Wednesdays and any other special services we have are packed to the walls in a little town in North GA - Gainesville.
But - I guess in Montana and Utah - people are running to the Houser's. Interesting! Maybe Barna needs to take a look in Gainesville, GA & Orange County, CA, Houston & Dallas and I could give you at least 20 churches near me in Metro ATL that have over 2000 each service and some have over 10,000 and over 20,000 every Sunday!
Poor deceived "Church" people!
And would somebody tell that Bishop Jakes with over 30,000 each Sunday and that Joel Osteen with over 45,000 that their numbers MUST be wrong because everybody's going to the HOUSER'S!

[Praxeas]

Personally I prefer the larger "corporate" church model coupled with a home group of some kind

[AreYouReady?]

Very fascinating thread. I like this!

I've been to a few home churches, but they are so very loosely organized that they disappear quickly...that is the apostolic based home churches.

My neighbor belonged to a home church all her life. Her mother left the home to all her children and it was her wish for that home to be open for home church meetings. These people are kind people; they look like pentecostals, but they do not believe in the apostolic doctrine of speaking in tongues, baptism in Jesus Name, or tongue and interpretations. They say that they have no organizational name, yet they know where each of their home "cells" are located all over the world.

They did not believe in tithing, yet as my neighbor told me, they know that their "workers" (preachers) have needs and they give to them when nobody is looking. If a worker got sick, money would pour in from all over the world to pay the medical bills. If there was any money left over, that money would go to someone else in need. All funerals were completely paid for.

She passed away last year at the age of 82 and the home has been vacant with no meetings since she died. It is kind of sad. I was so used to looking across the street and seeing cars, union meetings with "dinner on the grounds" afterwards.

[Jay]

There are some of those within about an hour of where I live. I have now ran into two of them, but I only spoke with one for a great length of time. I was able to explain, and he had asked me to, the Acts 2:38 message. I hope that I will be able to interact more with these fascinating people.

[Amanah]

Uhhhh...Do you mean the Church of God is NOT the Church of God and the Assembly of God is NOT the Assembly of God and the Church of Jesus Christ is not really (according to our brilliant Houser's) the Church of Jesus Christ and the "churches" are emptying out and going to peoples houses to sing Kumbya, drink coffee and have Yankee Casseroles and Goulash? WOW!
Amazing that we are having to add 2000 more seats to our already 3800 seat auditorium that we pack out every Sunday with two (9AM & 11AM) services & Wednesdays and any other special services we have are packed to the walls in a little town in North GA - Gainesville.
But - I guess in Montana and Utah - people are running to the Houser's. Interesting! Maybe Barna needs to take a look in Gainesville, GA & Orange County, CA, Houston & Dallas and I could give you at least 20 churches near me in Metro ATL that have over 2000 each service and some have over 10,000 and over 20,000 every Sunday!
Poor deceived "Church" people!
And would somebody tell that Bishop Jakes with over 30,000 each Sunday and that Joel Osteen with over 45,000 that their numbers MUST be wrong because everybody's going to the HOUSER'S!

I think it's possible that God can be a part of the megachurch model and house churches. I have never tried the house church model and would be interested in possibly visiting just to see what it is like. On the other hand, the megachurch model with the rockstar preacher doesn't really appeal to me that much.

[Jay]

Please define exactly what you define as a 'megachurch'. I hear that term used, but no one actually defines it. It seems to me then that a 'megachurch' is what I want it to be.

[Michael The Disciple]

And would somebody tell that Bishop Jakes with over 30,000 each Sunday and that Joel Osteen with over 45,000 that their numbers MUST be wrong because everybody's going to the HOUSER'S!

No Im sure with the distorted false teachings each one promotes they would have very many in their "Churches".

[Amanah]

Please define exactly what you define as a 'megachurch'. I hear that term used, but no one actually defines it. It seems to me then that a 'megachurch' is what I want it to be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megachurch

[Jay]

So in the loosest since of the word, Bros. J and K Godair are pastoring megachurches. Bro. Mangun and Bro. Haney pastor solid megachurches. I was just curious to see the term defined. Thank you

[Amanah]

here is a incomplete list of some megachurches

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_Protestant_churches_in_the_USA

[Amanah]

So in the loosest since of the word, Bros. J and K Godair are pastoring megachurches. Bro. Mangun and Bro. Haney pastor solid megachurches. I was just curious to see the term defined. Thank you

yes I suppose this is true, and those are preachers that I admire.

[Nitehawk013]

Herein is the really frustrating thing about this discussion. You will always have folks liek AB who apparently htink that it has to be an either/or situation. You either think church as to be traditional church or you are a rebel and want house church. I personally think it should be both. Furtehr, I think instead of demeaning one or the other, REAL Godly men would simply work together an duse whatever means were effective in whatever arae inorder to reach folks and grow the kingdom. INstead you have folks who just want to trash the opposite team and say they are wrong and shouldn't be fellowshipped.

As to buildings (going back about 3 pages.LOL) I believe if a church, home or traditonal, wants a dedicate dbuilding then why not try to do it the way God told the Israelites to build Hima house to dwell in? Tell the people God would like to dwell with them in a sanctuary and then leave it on them to give an offering WILLINGLY, not via some theocratic extortion or shake down, and then build with the offering they give. This is what happened in Exodus 25 with the Tabernacle. No tithe was invovled. No intimidation tactics or screaming that people just aren't giving enough. "You people really need to dig deep and sacrifice. Why should you buy that BIg Screen TV when you should be giving it all to the house of God"? Thats nonsense. If the peopel want a "church" building, then ask them and then lay it on them to give to pay for it.

Finally, why do we continue with the line thatthe church building is the house of God? WE are the body of Christ now. WE are the living Temples, the true dwelling place of God. The building is nothign special at all. Take us out of them and they are nothing special. There is nothign anointed or "holy" about a church building unless the children of God are in it.

[Dagwood]

Herein is the really frustrating thing about this discussion. You will always have folks liek AB who apparently htink that it has to be an either/or situation. You either think church as to be traditional church or you are a rebel and want house church. I personally think it should be both. Furtehr, I think instead of demeaning one or the other, REAL Godly men would simply work together an duse whatever means were effective in whatever arae inorder to reach folks and grow the kingdom. INstead you have folks who just want to trash the opposite team and say they are wrong and shouldn't be fellowshipped.

As to buildings (going back about 3 pages.LOL) I believe if a church, home or traditonal, wants a dedicate dbuilding then why not try to do it the way God told the Israelites to build Hima house to dwell in? Tell the people God would like to dwell with them in a sanctuary and then leave it on them to give an offering WILLINGLY, not via some theocratic extortion or shake down, and then build with the offering they give. This is what happened in Exodus 25 with the Tabernacle. No tithe was invovled. No intimidation tactics or screaming that people just aren't giving enough. "You people really need to dig deep and sacrifice. Why should you buy that BIg Screen TV when you should be giving it all to the house of God"? Thats nonsense. If the peopel want a "church" building, then ask them and then lay it on them to give to pay for it.

Finally, why do we continue with the line thatthe church building is the house of God? WE are the body of Christ now. WE are the living Temples, the true dwelling place of God. The building is nothign special at all. Take us out of them and they are nothing special. There is nothign anointed or "holy" about a church building unless the children of God are in it.

:thumbsup:thumbsup

[Aquila]

I'm not for it, I'm not against it. I've been to many home ministries. Many churches within the DC DEL MD Council of the PAW started in homes and nproggressed to church buildings. My problem is when people get dogmatic and claim that "the true" and "organic" form of worship occured in homes. Yes we know christians in the Apostolic era often held services in homes. Could this be because of persecution and the culture of the day? 100% absolutely. I worship in a building under a pastor. So do 900 other people at my church. I wouldn't try to fit them all in my pastor's house.

I believe that the "house church" in the NT was by design. If done RIGHT, with a priesthood of believers, it works wonderfully. All too often people form "home fellowship groups" and make them just small scale models of the traditional church. It doesn't work that way. For example, many startups that I've seen have "members". That won't fly. This is because a true house church is simply the house of a called elder, or one gifted with helps, opened for fellowship and study to all "Christian believers" in a given neighborhood or locality. It's a way station on the way to the arms of Christ, not an end in and of itself. It's a lifestyle, not a model. When embraced wholly for what it is... house churching works. In fact... the vast majority of Christian believers on the planet house church. As for the first century, persecution wasn't empire wide. In addition, it was sporadic. It appears that the early church didn't house church out of necessity, but rather simply because of function. Review I Corinthians 14. A larger traditional church cannot fulfill the "commandments of the Lord" in that chapter without reinterpreting the chapter to fit the traditional model of church.

Please review the post at this link: http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=1108310&postcount=19

Here's an interesting article I had read. I wanted to share it here and see if anyone would like to share their thoughts on it. It really convicted me when I first began studying the house church.

================================================== ==


THE HOUSE CHURCH
AND PARACHURCH
ORGANIZATIONS

Since the first use of the word church (Gk. ekklesia) in Acts is found here (2:47), we pause to consider the centrality of the church in the thinking of the early Christians.

The church in the Book of Acts and in the rest of the NT was what is often called a house church. The early Christians met in houses rather than in special ecclesiastical buildings. It has been said that religion was loosed from specially sacred places and centered in that universal place of living, the home. Unger says that homes continued to serve as places of Christian assembly for two centuries.

It might be easy for us to think that the use of private homes was forced by economic necessity rather than being the result of spiritual considerations. We have become so accustomed to church buildings and chapels that we think they are God’s ideal.

However, there I strong reason to believe that the first century believers might have been wiser than we are.

First, it is inconsistent with the Christian faith and its emphasis on love to spend thousands of dollars on luxurious buildings when there is such appalling needed throughout the world. In that connection, E. Stanley Jones wrote:

I looked on the Bambino, the child Christ in the Cathedral at Rome, laden with expensive jewels, and then walked out and looked upon the countenances of hungry children and wondered whether Christ, in view of this hunger, was enjoying His jewels, and the thought persisted that if He was, then I could no longer enjoy the thought of Christ. That bejeweled Bambino and the hungry children are a symbol of what we have done in putting around Christ the expensive livery of stately cathedral sand churches while leaving untouched the fundamental wrongs in human society whereby Christ is left hungry in the unemployed and the disposed.
Not only is it inhumane; it is also uneconomical to spend money on expensive buildings that are used for no more than three, four, or five hours during the week. How have we ever allowed ourselves to drift into this unthinking dream world where we are willing to spend so much in order to get so little usage in return?

Our modern building programs have been one of the biggest hindrances to the expansion of the church. Heavy payments on principle and interest cause church leaders to resist any efforts to hive off and form new churches. Any loss of members would jeopardize the income needed to pay for the building and its upkeep. An unborn generation is addled with debt, and any hope of church reproduction is stifled.

It is often argued that we must have impressive buildings in order to attract the unchurched to our services. Aside from being a carnal way of thinking, this completely overlooks the NT pattern. The meetings of the early church were largely for believers. The Christians assembled for the apostles’ teaching, fellowship, breaking of bread, and prayer (Acts 2:42). The did not do their evangelizing by inviting people to meetings on Sunday but by witnessing to those with whom they came in contact throughout the week. When people did get converted, they were then brought into the fellowship and warmth of the house church to be fed and encouraged.

It is sometimes difficult to get people to attend services in dignified church buildings. There is a strong reaction against formalism. Also there is a fear of being solicited for funds. “All the church wants is your money,” is a common complaint. Yet many of these same people are willing to attend a conversational Bible class in a home. There they do not have to be style-conscious, and they enjoy the informal, unprofessional atmosphere.

Actually the house church is ideal for every culture and every country. And probably if we could look over the entire world, we would see more churches meeting in homes than in any other way.

In contrast to today’s imposing cathedrals, churches, and chapels – as well as a whole host of highly organized denominations, the apostles in the Book of Acts made no attempt to form an organization of any kind for carrying on the work of the Lord. The local church was God’s unit on earth for propagating the faith and the disciples were content to work within that context.

In recent years there has been an organizational explosion in Christendom of such proportions as to make one dizzy. Every time a believer gets a new idea for advancing the cause of Christ, he forms a new mission board, corporations, or institution!

One result is that capable teachers and preachers have been called away from their primary ministries in order to become administrators. If all mission board administrators were serving on the mission field, it would greatly reduce the need for personnel there.

Another result of the proliferation of organizations is that vast sums of money are needed for overhead, and thus diverted from direct gospel outreach. The greater part of every dollar given to many Christian organizations is devoted to the expense of maintaining the organization rather than the primary purpose for which it was founded.

Organizations often hinder the fulfillment of the Great Commission. Jesus told His disciples to teach all the things He had commanded. Many who work for Christian organizations find they are not permitted to teach all the truth of God. They must no teach certain controversial matters for fear they will alienate the constituency to whom they look for financial support.

The multiplication of Christian institutions has too often resulted in factions, jealousy, and rivalry that have done great harm to the testimony of Christ.

Consider the overlapping multiplicity of Christian organizations at work, at home, and abroad. Each competes for limited personnel and for shrinking financial resources. And consider how many of these organizations really owe their origin to purely human rivalry, though public statements usually refer to God’s will (Daily Notes of the Scripture Union).

And it is often true that organizations have a way of perpetuating themselves long after they have outlived their usefulness. The wheels grind on heavily even though the vision of the founders has been lost, and the glory of the once dynamic movement has departed. It was spiritual wisdom, not primitive naiveté, that saved the early Christians from setting up human organizations to carry on the work of the Lord. G. H. Lang writes:

An acute writer, contrasting the apostolic work with the more usual modern missionary methods, has said that “we found missions, the apostles founded churches.” The distinction is sound and pregnant. The apostles founded churches, and the founded nothing else, because for the ends in view nothing else was required or could have been so suitable. In each place where they labored they formed the converts into a local assembly, with elders – always elders, never an elder (Acts 14:23; 15:6, 23; 20:17; Phil. 1:1) – to guide, to rule, to shepherd, men qualified by the Lord and recognized by the saints (I Cor. 16:15; I Thess. 5:12, 13; I Tim. 5:17-19); and with deacons, appointed by the assembly (Acts 6:1-6; Phil 1:1) – in this contrasted with the elders – to attend to the few but very important temporal affairs, and in particular to the distribution of the funds of the assembly….All they (the apostles) did in the way of organizing was to form the disciples gathered into other such assemblies. No other organization than the local assembly appears in the New Testament, nor do we find even the germ of anything further.

To the early Christians and their apostolic leadership, the congregation was the divinely ordained unit on earth through which God chose to work, and they only such unit to which He promised perpetuity was the church.


Believer’s Bible Commentary, Pgs. 1590-1591

[Aquila]

PLEASE REVIEW THE FOLLOWING POST (thanks):

The Bible (I Corinthians 14:26-38) illustrates that our meetings should have the following elements and guiding principles:

- Everyone being able to bring a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation.
- Gift of tongues coupled with interpretation, two or at most three.
- Two or three anointed teachers speak and guide the meeting.
- If a saint attending has a revelation or something to share, whoever is speaking must stop and give them the floor so that all might be able to prophesy, learn, and be encouraged. Meetings are to be discussion based.
- Those who address the group must realize that their spirits are subject to the anointed teachers guiding the group.
- Women (or anyone for that matter) are not to use the time for socializing.
- Those who think they are spiritual Christians should acknowledge that this order is command from the Lord.

If our "form of church" will not allow for these kinds of meetings... we are failing to meet as the Apostle Paul admonished us to meet. It doesn't matter if it's in a house, a park, a coffee shop, a library, a book store, a bus stop, a town square, church building or wherever. The point is that the above elements should be present. They are to be elder guided and interactive meetings where anyone present can address the group by sharing a song, a hymn, a poem, a passage, a testimony, or whatever the Lord leads. If a meeting is too big to facilitate this, it fails to allow for the body ministry Paul admonishes us to have because it is a "command from the Lord" (I Corinthians 14:37).

For example, on any given Sunday when a given pastor is speaking... could I ask to speak and share a word that the Lord has placed on my heart? Could you in turn share what passage has been ministering to you and what the Lord put on your heart? If I had a question could I interrupt the pastor's sermon to seek an answer? Could the entire congregation do any of this? Or would the pastor be upset because he was interrupted and he didn't get to "preach a sermon"? Would there by too many people to allow for such an open and interactive meeting? Would we be relegated to being relatively passive spectators who hopefully learn something? If so... your church is most likely too big to abide by I Corinthians 14:26-38. I believe that home fellowship groups (or house churches) fulfill this calling of Scripture.

It's the BIBLICAL way to do church.

We've had house church (simple church) gatherings at coffee shops (Tim Horton's, Higher Grounds, and Boston Stoker's) in the Dayton Ohio, Tipp City area. Place and building don't matter. The fuction of our gatherings is what matters.

[Aquila]

It may be so. I also must question though whether or not this is ACTUALLY what God is doing. I don't believe God is drawing believers away from "institutionalized religion". There is one Lord, and one Faith, and one Baptism. I believe however some of the man made denominations and organizations are being rocked and shaken up. I'm guilty of denominationalism myself. I've often times been in fear that I may not be able to operate outside of the traditional organizational structure.

My whole Christian walk I've been in one of three organizations (PCAF, COOLJC, and now PAW) I know all the politics, the dirty gossip, the structure, the order, the pomp, the circumstance and sometimes I recognize that some of this stuff does hinder God because it exalts man, and God had beat my behind for getting wrapped up in it, because as soon as persecuation befalls the church, it's all over. Like you said alot of these organizations/denominations are compromising and falling away. True believers can't go with them. I'll go that far with you.:thumbsup

:thumbsup

[Aquila]

Uhhhh...Do you mean the Church of God is NOT the Church of God and the Assembly of God is NOT the Assembly of God and the Church of Jesus Christ is not really (according to our brilliant Houser's) the Church of Jesus Christ and the "churches" are emptying out and going to peoples houses to sing Kumbya, drink coffee and have Yankee Casseroles and Goulash? WOW!
Amazing that we are having to add 2000 more seats to our already 3800 seat auditorium that we pack out every Sunday with two (9AM & 11AM) services & Wednesdays and any other special services we have are packed to the walls in a little town in North GA - Gainesville.
But - I guess in Montana and Utah - people are running to the Houser's. Interesting! Maybe Barna needs to take a look in Gainesville, GA & Orange County, CA, Houston & Dallas and I could give you at least 20 churches near me in Metro ATL that have over 2000 each service and some have over 10,000 and over 20,000 every Sunday!
Poor deceived "Church" people!
And would somebody tell that Bishop Jakes with over 30,000 each Sunday and that Joel Osteen with over 45,000 that their numbers MUST be wrong because everybody's going to the HOUSER'S!

The numbers don't lie. In fact... even with growth in "pop-star" mega Wal-Mart churches, the vast majority of Americans worship at home. And growing numbers are gathering to fellowship in less formal settings.

Please understand, Paul wrote what our gatherings should be like....

The Bible (I Corinthians 14:26-38) illustrates that our meetings should have the following elements and guiding principles:

- Everyone being able to bring a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation.
- Gift of tongues coupled with interpretation, two or at most three.
- Two or three anointed teachers speak and guide the meeting.
- If a saint attending has a revelation or something to share, whoever is speaking must stop and give them the floor so that all might be able to prophesy, learn, and be encouraged. Meetings are to be discussion based.
- Those who address the group must realize that their spirits are subject to the anointed teachers guiding the group.
- Women (or anyone for that matter) are not to use the time for socializing.
- Those who think they are spiritual Christians should acknowledge that this order of service is a command from the Lord.

If our "form of church" will not allow for these kinds of meetings... we are failing to meet as the Apostle Paul admonished us to meet. It doesn't matter if it's in a house, a park, a coffee shop, a library, a book store, a bus stop, a town square, church building or wherever. The point is that the above elements should be present. They are to be elder guided and interactive meetings where anyone present can address the group by sharing a song, a hymn, a poem, a passage, a testimony, or whatever the Lord leads. If a meeting is too big to facilitate this, it fails to allow for the "body ministry" Paul admonishes us to have because it is a "command from the Lord" (I Corinthians 14:37).

For example, on any given Sunday when a given pastor is speaking... could I ask to speak and share a word that the Lord has placed on my heart? Could you in turn share what passage has been ministering to you and what the Lord put on your heart? If I had a question could I interrupt the pastor's sermon to seek an answer? Could the entire congregation do any of this? Or would the pastor be upset because he was interrupted and he didn't get to "preach a sermon"? Would there by too many people to allow for such an open and interactive meeting? Would we be relegated to being relatively passive spectators who hopefully learn something? If so... your church is most likely too big to abide by I Corinthians 14:26-38. I believe that home fellowship groups (or house churches) fulfill this calling of Scripture.

It's the BIBLICAL way to do church.

We've had house church (simple church) gatherings at coffee shops (Tim Horton's, Higher Grounds, and Boston Stoker's) in the Dayton Ohio, Tipp City area. Place and building don't matter. The fuction of our gatherings is what matters. Do our gatherings fulfill the BIBLICAL mandate regarding what we are supposed to do when we come together??? If the congregation is too big to do the above... it's too large.

Two questions:

1.) What do you do with these commandments from Scripture above? We're told that the Bible doesn't tell us how to conduct church, but that's incorrect. It does.

2.) In these massive churches... does the pastor know the names and families of the members... or are they merely faceless "members" providing revenue to keep the massive operation (including salaries) alive?

My house church elder knows all of us very intimately. Ryan knows our names, our struggles, our families, our dreams, our callings, our gifts, our children, how they are doing in school, how our marriages are doing, how our careers are doing, etc. You can't beat that. I've been to massive churches. I attended one of nearly 500 for a long time. I know what it's like to go to church and be lost in the crowd. I know what it's like to maybe know a hand full of people scattered throughout the crowd in a massive sanctuary where we're told we're "fellowshipping", watching the Sunday show.

After house churching regularly for over a year... I can testify that it can't be beaten if done right. No one is lost in the crowd. The intimacy is very close. There is transparency. Your gifts are discovered and used. Lives are shared. No one dies with their music still inside them.

House churches can be scary too. The elder can look at you and interrupt the meeting and ask, "Brother, you seem to be struggling. Is the problem a sin? C'mon, open up. Get it in the light. Let's talk about it as a body and get this thing off your chest so you can spiritually breathe." And then the entire group is transfixed on you, a few silently praying. Your sin gathers in your throat, you don't know if you can admit it out loud. But the Holy Ghost prompts you and it begins to pour out like a flowing river. The fellowship gathers around you and prayers are made for you, each speaking in turn. It's POWERFUL. No dressing up, finding a pew, and hiding the pain. You can't hide in a house church as easily as you can in a massive mega church.

[Aquila]

Personally I prefer the larger "corporate" church model coupled with a home group of some kind

That's not bad. Like I said, the church I attend is a network of house churches that meet on Sunday at a large campus outside of Centerville Ohio. However, not everyone chooses to attend. It's not manditory either. Each house church is a church. Each house church elder baptizes, counsels, disciplines, disciples, burries, and marries. Some house churches are Reformed... some are Arminian. It's a very loving community of Jesus disciples.

[Aquila]

Let's also not forget that nearly every great revival has begun in the private quarters of a private home, only to be rejected by the institutional church of it's day.

[ThePastorsCoach]

I just love you guys! ;-)

[Aquila]

I just love you guys! ;-)

Love you too AB! :)

[Aquila]

And I love this verse... it's in my signature:

"For two whole years Paul stayed there in his own rented house and welcomed all who came to see him. Boldly and without hindrance he preached the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ." ~ Acts 28:30-31

Paul simply rented a residence and opened it up as a spiritual way station for fellow travelers on their journey into eternity. ;)

Humility
Simplicity
Anointing

[Truthseeker]

And I love this verse... it's in my signature:

"For two whole years Paul stayed there in his own rented house and welcomed all who came to see him. Boldly and without hindrance he preached the kingdom of God and taught about the Lord Jesus Christ." ~ Acts 28:30-31

Paul simply rented a residence and opened it up as a spiritual way station for fellow travelers on their journey into eternity. ;)

Humility
Simplicity
Anointing

He was an apostle, maybe by joining an assemble it woulf take away from elders of such?

[Aquila]

He was an apostle, maybe by joining an assemble it woulf take away from elders of such?

Maybe he had a disassociative disorder?
Maybe he had bad gas?

The point is... this was Paul's chosen path. :)

It's a beautiful thing.

[Aquila]

Hey guys... NOBODY has attempted to address the following post:

The Bible (I Corinthians 14:26-38) illustrates that our meetings should have the following elements and guiding principles:

- Everyone being able to bring a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation.
- Gift of tongues coupled with interpretation, two or at most three.
- Two or three anointed teachers speak and guide the meeting.
- If a saint attending has a revelation or something to share, whoever is speaking must stop and give them the floor so that all might be able to prophesy, learn, and be encouraged. Meetings are to be discussion based.
- Those who address the group must realize that their spirits are subject to the anointed teachers guiding the group.
- Women (or anyone for that matter) are not to use the time for socializing.
- Those who think they are spiritual Christians should acknowledge that this order of service is a command from the Lord.

If our "form of church" will not allow for these kinds of meetings... we are failing to meet as the Apostle Paul admonished us to meet. It doesn't matter if it's in a house, a park, a coffee shop, a library, a book store, a bus stop, a town square, church building or wherever. The point is that the above elements should be present. They are to be elder guided and interactive meetings where anyone present can address the group by sharing a song, a hymn, a poem, a passage, a testimony, or whatever the Lord leads. If a meeting is too big to facilitate this, it fails to allow for the "body ministry" Paul admonishes us to have because it is a "command from the Lord" (I Corinthians 14:37).

For example, on any given Sunday when a given pastor is speaking... could I ask to speak and share a word that the Lord has placed on my heart? Could you in turn share what passage has been ministering to you and what the Lord put on your heart? If I had a question could I interrupt the pastor's sermon to seek an answer? Could the entire congregation do any of this? Or would the pastor be upset because he was interrupted and he didn't get to "preach a sermon"? Would there by too many people to allow for such an open and interactive meeting? Would we be relegated to being relatively passive spectators who hopefully learn something? If so... your church is most likely too big to abide by I Corinthians 14:26-38. I believe that home fellowship groups (or house churches) fulfill this calling of Scripture.

It's the BIBLICAL way to do church.

We've had house church (simple church) gatherings at coffee shops (Tim Horton's, Higher Grounds, and Boston Stoker's) in the Dayton Ohio, Tipp City area. Place and building don't matter. The fuction of our gatherings is what matters. Do our gatherings fulfill the BIBLICAL mandate regarding what we are supposed to do when we come together??? If the congregation is too big to do the above... it's too large.

We are bantering about how to do church like it's optional. Most are IGNORING what Paul tells the Corinthians regarding how their meetings were to be conducted. And we fail to see that what Paul writes is a "commandment of the Lord".

Coming together for a larger gathering isn't forbidden... but it's clear that close intimate fellowship and mutual participation, so that all may prophesy, is a commandment issued through Paul by God Himself. This is facilitated in the house church.... not the Sunday Show.

[Truthseeker]

Maybe he had a disassociative disorder?
Maybe he had bad gas?

The point is... this was Paul's chosen path. :)

It's a beautiful thing.

Maybe your nuts! ;) lol.

[Aquila]

We cannot justify the failure of the institutional church to recognize and abide by I Corinthians 14:26-38 in our gatherings.

I Corinthians 14:37
37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

If a gathering is too large to allow for all to prophesy and have the floor, share a revelation, etc.... it fails to meet this biblical mandate. We are essentially commanded to perform body ministry. Not to show up and listen to a "sermon".

[Amanah]

Hey guys... NOBODY has attempted to address the following post:

The Bible (I Corinthians 14:26-38) illustrates that our meetings should have the following elements and guiding principles:

[INDENT]- Everyone being able to bring a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation.
- Gift of tongues coupled with interpretation, two or at most three.
- Two or three anointed teachers speak and guide the meeting.
- If a saint attending has a revelation or something to share, whoever is speaking must stop and give them the floor so that all might be able to prophesy, learn, and be encouraged. Meetings are to be discussion based.
- Those who address the group must realize that their spirits are subject to the anointed teachers guiding the group.
- Those who think they are spiritual Christians should acknowledge that this order of service is a command from the Lord.


it might be hard to follow this format in a Megachurch.

[Aquila]

it might be hard to follow this format in a Megachurch.

Frankly, it's impossible in most larger churches and megachurches.

The point is... there isn't anything wrong with occasional larger gatherings if conducted weekly, monthly, or quarterly. However, to strictly meet in larger gatherings where "body ministry" is unable to flow, with every member participating, is to ignore this entire passage written by Paul that admonishes "body ministry". A larger assembly should have home fellowship groups to facilitate this Scriptural mandate at the very least... or they are just "shot gun feeding" a massive crowd of saints information and failing to allow for "body ministry" as Paul describes it in I Corinthians 14:26-38.

Notice, this format is the only commandment in Scripture regarding our gatherings. Therefore, even a house church that doesn't meet in a larger gathering clearly observes this Apostolic practice.

It's the larger gathering that is optional... not the smaller gathering that facilitates body ministry.

The house church is the foundational format for biblical churching, not the larger institutionalized meetings.

[Digging4Truth]

it might be hard to follow this format in a Megachurch.

You can't even have a good ol' fashioned testimony service in a megachurch. :)

[Nitehawk013]

Most churches I see don't do testiomony service at all. Afraid that Bro or Sis So-and-so will getthe floor and say something ignorant. We had one thank god he found a full case of beer. Then there are always those who are incapable fo jsut getting to the point and want to give a 20 minute sob story of how bad their life is, but they than kGod that they know He will take care of them.

[AreYouReady?]

There are some of those within about an hour of where I live. I have now ran into two of them, but I only spoke with one for a great length of time. I was able to explain, and he had asked me to, the Acts 2:38 message. I hope that I will be able to interact more with these fascinating people.


You had a rare opportunity, Jay. Normally, they do not ask other people questions about bible. It has been my experience that they do all the bible discussion...to you and me. :)

They are really great people though.

They meet in homes and they do have a church hierarchy within. They have district elders who choose which person goes where.
Women may become workers. But the odd thing is that couples may not become workers. Their doctrine is that when Jesus sent the disciples out "two by two" to the cities. So...they send either two men or two women out to the cities two by two. Often there are not enough workers to come to every home church, so the married men may lead the bible study or the meeting in the home.

[Truthseeker]

Maybe your nuts! ;) lol.


For the record Aquila, i don't think your reallly nots, actually think you make valid points. :thumbsup

[Ferd]

I am for church. Any kind of church. Big building church with lots of people. Small building church with some people. house church with who ever you can get with.

What I am for is not forsaking getting together with believers. Its kind of biblical.

The setting is unemportant.

What i am not for is using the idea of "house church" to forsake getting together regularly with like minded christians and worshipping God.

I am also against a person going to a big church so they can get lost in the crowd and not have to "plug in". Better they go to a house church where they are involved and part of the group.


setting is not important. Outcome of the event however is vital.

[shag]

We cannot justify the failure of the institutional church to recognize and abide by I Corinthians 14:26-38 in our gatherings.

I Corinthians 14:37
37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

If a gathering is too large to allow for all to prophesy and have the floor, share a revelation, etc.... it fails to meet this biblical mandate. We are essentially commanded to perform body ministry. Not to show up and listen to a "sermon".
Oh I don't know Aquilla, the peons also get to talk in the big settings, I mean they get to say stuff when the preacher says "tap yourself on the chest and say "my man a God"". Or thing like "preach it", "tell it", or "come on"!

I mean, what more could a person want out of a "service" to their "king".

In all seriousness, I think there is much to be gained having open dialogue in smaller numbers meetings about scripture and Gods will in our individual lives, things we are going thru as families etc, as long as it is remains "in decency and order". Mega churches having meetings also in homes I think is a good thing, being able to make these types of things happen where as they don't/can't in a bigger meeting.

[Digging4Truth]

I am for church. Any kind of church. Big building church with lots of people. Small building church with some people. house church with who ever you can get with.

What I am for is not forsaking getting together with believers. Its kind of biblical.

The setting is unemportant.

What i am not for is using the idea of "house church" to forsake getting together regularly with like minded christians and worshipping God.

I am also against a person going to a big church so they can get lost in the crowd and not have to "plug in". Better they go to a house church where they are involved and part of the group.


setting is not important. Outcome of the event however is vital.

LOL... both scenarios that you are against are, indeed, common. :)

[Aquila]

Most churches I see don't do testiomony service at all. Afraid that Bro or Sis So-and-so will getthe floor and say something ignorant. We had one thank god he found a full case of beer. Then there are always those who are incapable fo jsut getting to the point and want to give a 20 minute sob story of how bad their life is, but they than kGod that they know He will take care of them.

I don't see this as a problem to be avoided, I see it as a symptom of a more serious issue.

Let me ask a question...

Are these people being properly discipled?

Jesus didn't call us to go out and make "members" of a church to sit on a pew, listen to a sermon, and give their money to us. Jesus called us to go and make "disciples". If a person would say some of the things like what you're saying above, I think they are not being properly discipled. Sure, new converts might say something that's off. You'll get that in a house church or any setting. But someone who has known the Lord for a month or more should know better and have a growing and biblical foundation for their faith.

Part of the problem is... a lot of these people have never been allowed to speak or to address the congregation. They don't know or understand that they are there to edify.

[Aquila]

You had a rare opportunity, Jay. Normally, they do not ask other people questions about bible. It has been my experience that they do all the bible discussion...to you and me. :)

They are really great people though.

They meet in homes and they do have a church hierarchy within. They have district elders who choose which person goes where.
Women may become workers. But the odd thing is that couples may not become workers. Their doctrine is that when Jesus sent the disciples out "two by two" to the cities. So...they send either two men or two women out to the cities two by two. Often there are not enough workers to come to every home church, so the married men may lead the bible study or the meeting in the home.

That's weird to me. Our house church network is rather free style.

[Aquila]

For the record Aquila, i don't think your reallly nots, actually think you make valid points. :thumbsup

Thank you! :)

But for the record... I am nuts. lol

[Aquila]

I am for church. Any kind of church. Big building church with lots of people. Small building church with some people. house church with who ever you can get with.

What I am for is not forsaking getting together with believers. Its kind of biblical.

The setting is unemportant.

What i am not for is using the idea of "house church" to forsake getting together regularly with like minded christians and worshipping God.

I am also against a person going to a big church so they can get lost in the crowd and not have to "plug in". Better they go to a house church where they are involved and part of the group.


setting is not important. Outcome of the event however is vital.

Excellent points! However, I have one issue that few consider...

With regards to church gatherings Paul writes the following in I Corinthians 14...

I Corinthians 14:26-40 (ESV)
26What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. 27If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. 28But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. 29Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. 30If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. 31For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, 32and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. 33For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.

As in all the churches of the saints, 34 the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. 35If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

36Or was it from you that the word of God came? Or are you the only ones it has reached? 37 If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord. 38If anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. 39So, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40 But all things should be done decently and in order.

While I'm sure that there is less political fallout for saying that one supports any form of church... Paul tells us in his first letter to the Corinthians how a gathering should be conducted. Paul goes on to tell us that these things are a "command of the Lord". Frankly, and I mean this very lovingly, if a "form of church" doesn't facilitate the "body ministry" that the Lord commands... it's not a biblical meeting. This is why house churchers are often very leery of one man Sunday Shows. Sure, larger celebratory gatherings for teaching and worship are fine. But the REAL fellowship that fulfills the Bible mandate of discipling and developing believers can only take place in smaller meetings where these believers are active participants and not spectators.

[Aquila]

I think another issue with the instutional church model is mentioned by John:

3 John 1:9-10
English Standard Version (ESV)
9I have written something to the church, but Diotrephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge our authority. 10So if I come, I will bring up what he is doing, talking wicked nonsense against us. And not content with that, he refuses to welcome the brothers, and also stops those who want to and puts them out of the church.

The "one man show" of the institutional model often lends itself to this spirit. Who hasn't experienced this or at least seen or heard about it? Even good and powerful men of God that I know, love, and respect have fallen prey to this spirit on occasion.

[ThePastorsCoach]

:heeheehee I just love you houser's!! :chat

[Praxeas]

Personally I don't want to be in a church where the Pastor get's wisked away after he speaks by Limo and never talks to you personally, prays for you personally....

[ThePastorsCoach]

Are you house church people denominal or non denominal or nominal or normal or well, ever how you say it!

[Digging4Truth]

Are you house church people denominal or non denominal or nominal or normal or well, ever how you say it!

We'll have to get back with you on that one. We've just recently found out that we've been relegated to "Housers" & "House Church People".

We have to deal with these things one at a time.

Being spoken to down ones nose is a real boom for the "Housers"

[ThePastorsCoach]

I am thinking of finding a hmmmm, welll, uhhhh a house that people call a church or something and wondering if houser's wear house shoes when they are in one of those things? Would someone let me know if I need to wear HOUSE shoes or regular shoes to one of these house meetings. Should I ask what they will be serving afterward? How do you have room to shout and run in a little ole house?

[TGBTG]

I am thinking of finding a hmmmm, welll, uhhhh a house that people call a church or something and wondering if houser's wear house shoes when they are in one of those things? Would someone let me know if I need to wear HOUSE shoes or regular shoes to one of these house meetings. Should I ask what they will be serving afterward? How do you have room to shout and run in a little ole house?

AB, are you being serious or what?

[Digging4Truth]

AB, are you being serious or what?

This is the way he does.

He is consistently sarcastic, snarky & rude in a thread and then he either says he was kidding the whole time or opens an apology thread.

We'll see which one this ends up being.

[ThePastorsCoach]

What do you mean am I being serious? Do you wear house shoes to the house meetings or not? I don't want to go there and offend them with regular shoes on if they are wearing HOUSE SHOES! Who knows what rules, regulations or standards they have in these house uhhhh groups that don't want to be a church.
And you did not answer my question about How do you have room to shout and run in a little ole house?

[TGBTG]

What do you mean am I being serious? Do you wear house shoes to the house meetings or not? I don't want to go there and offend them with regular shoes on if they are wearing HOUSE SHOES! Who knows what rules, regulations or standards they have in these house uhhhh groups that don't want to be a church.
And you did not answer my question about How do you have room to shout and run in a little ole house?

Ok, since you're being "serious", do you even realize the sarcastic tone of your post?

Your posts about the house churches have been demeaning to say the least...

I don't attend a traditional house church like Aquila. However, I'm sure they put on shoes like everyone else.
What do you mean they don't want to be a church? When does a group become a church? Is it when they have mega-building?

Church is comprised of those who have been baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ. Whether they meet in mega-building, or underground, they are the church.

FYI, in countries where physical persecution of christians is very high, it's either they meet in the house or better still underground. Oh, but wait, according to you, they meet underground, so they can't be part of the church...

Ask the underground church "if they have room to run and shout in their basements where they meet"

[ThePastorsCoach]

Ok, since you're being "serious", do you even realize the sarcastic tone of your post?

Your posts about the house churches have been demeaning to say the least...

I don't attend a traditional house church like Aquila. However, I'm sure they put on shoes like everyone else.
What do you mean they don't want to be a church? When does a group become a church? Is it when they have mega-building?

Church is comprised of those who have been baptized by the Spirit into the body of Christ. Whether they meet in mega-building, or underground, they are the church.

FYI, in countries where physical persecution of christians is very high, it's either they meet in the house or better still underground. Oh, but wait, according to you, they meet underground, so they can't be part of the church...

Ask the underground church "if they have room to run and shout in their basements where they meet"

Oh WOW! Did I detect a sarcastic tone? All I wanted to know what if out of respect to the house people that I should wear house shoes to the house meeting! You don't have to get so touchy about it! WOW!
Have you ever been to an underground church?

[Nitehawk013]

AB is a megachurch fan. Probably get s nice paycheck from the traditional church format, so he is absolutly opposed to the house church idea. Traditional church proponents find house church threatening to their status quo.

Personally I find that the sad part. Men ought to simply agree to disagree on this matter if they don't like it and let God sort it out. If God is opposed to the idea of house church, it will fail. If He is for it, then all the Traditionalists in the world won't be able to stop the house church movement. As long as they preach Jesus, who cares if peole get saved in a house or a church building?

Wait...I know who cares. The men who won't get to rip off the house folks for their "tithe".

[Aquila]

Are you house church people denominal or non denominal or nominal or normal or well, ever how you say it!

Some are denominal, some are not.

[Aquila]

I am thinking of finding a hmmmm, welll, uhhhh a house that people call a church or something and wondering if houser's wear house shoes when they are in one of those things? Would someone let me know if I need to wear HOUSE shoes or regular shoes to one of these house meetings. Should I ask what they will be serving afterward? How do you have room to shout and run in a little ole house?

You can wear house shoes if you wish. It's not about the shoes, it's all about Jesus. Some don't wear shoes at all. lol

At the house churches I've attended, the breaking of bread (the Lord's Supper) is performed after the meal.

Well, some house churches shout and praise, especially while singing. Others are more laid back. I've yet to see anyone run in a house church though. lol

[Aquila]

AB is a megachurch fan. Probably get s nice paycheck from the traditional church format, so he is absolutly opposed to the house church idea. Traditional church proponents find house church threatening to their status quo.

Personally I find that the sad part. Men ought to simply agree to disagree on this matter if they don't like it and let God sort it out. If God is opposed to the idea of house church, it will fail. If He is for it, then all the Traditionalists in the world won't be able to stop the house church movement. As long as they preach Jesus, who cares if peole get saved in a house or a church building?

Wait...I know who cares. The men who won't get to rip off the house folks for their "tithe".

Ouch!

[Aquila]

The church is an anointed people... not a building with a steeple. :)

[Digging4Truth]

And to think that AB doesn't even appear to be able to see how rude, condescending and vindictive his remarks are. That's the amazing part... to me.

[shag]

I feel like the one of the most important things is, what our families are doing thruout day to day life to grow in Christ and fulfill His purpose individually, and each family as a whole. And then secondly wherever we choose to meet with other believers is not as important as long as we do so, to strengthen one another, and carry eachothers burdens, pray for eachother etc.

What really bothers me, is how places like where I attend go on and on and in about getting people to the house of God...it's not about getting people to a temple house of God, because the church people are the house of God in the nt according to scripture, and we are to reach the sinner thru displaying the-love of Christ to them in our daily lives. That takes time and effort, but it's the real deal. I like the house church setting also because all the man made rules to be a part of the ministries and to be on the platform (man made kingdom)is a stumbling block to the Kingdom of God as it robs people of ministry because they don't measure up to someone else's personal conviction of outer dress code etc.. To be a part of that man made kingdom is to hinder personal relationship with God by putting anothers mans convictions above ones own in order to be a part of their kingdom/local ministries of an assembly.
House church skips all that nonsense and allows folks to grow up thru bring Spirit led personally, and fullfiling Gods purpose in ministry without all the undcriptural man made rules to make THEIR team instead of set the bench. Plus, you get some dialogue in house church unlike institutional... Example: last night everyone sat and listened to their leader for an hour, they got to speak tho, cause about 20 people got to give an answer of what their favorite food was when asked, to compare "hunger for righteousness" with fleshly hunger.




Just set there and listen 3x a week, keep your mouth shut while the manna God mediates the message, and pay him 1/10 of your income and everything will be just fine.

[Truthseeker]

The church was birthed through house churches. How one can speak against it is beyond me.

[Aquila]

The Bible (I Corinthians 14:26-38) illustrates that our meetings should have the following elements and guiding principles:

- Everyone being able to bring a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation.
- Gift of tongues coupled with interpretation, two or at most three.
- Two or three anointed teachers speak and guide the meeting.
- If a saint attending has a revelation or something to share, whoever is speaking must stop and give them the floor so that all might be able to prophesy, learn, and be encouraged. Meetings are to be discussion based.
- Those who address the group must realize that their spirits are subject to the anointed teachers guiding the group.
- Women (or anyone for that matter) are not to use the time for socializing.
- Those who think they are spiritual Christians should acknowledge that this order of service is a command from the Lord.

If our "form of church" will not allow for these kinds of meetings... we are failing to meet as the Apostle Paul admonished us to meet. It doesn't matter if it's in a house, a park, a coffee shop, a library, a book store, a bus stop, a town square, church building or wherever. The point is that the above elements should be present. They are to be elder guided and interactive meetings where anyone present can address the group by sharing a song, a hymn, a poem, a passage, a testimony, or whatever the Lord leads. If a meeting is too big to facilitate this, it fails to allow for the "body ministry" Paul admonishes us to have because it is a "command from the Lord" (I Corinthians 14:37).

For example, on any given Sunday when a given pastor is speaking... could I ask to speak and share a word that the Lord has placed on my heart? Could you in turn share what passage has been ministering to you and what the Lord put on your heart? If I had a question could I interrupt the pastor's sermon to seek an answer? Could the entire congregation do any of this? Or would the pastor be upset because he was interrupted and he didn't get to "preach a sermon"? Would there by too many people to allow for such an open and interactive meeting? Would we be relegated to being relatively passive spectators who hopefully learn something? If so... your church is most likely too big to abide by I Corinthians 14:26-38. I believe that home fellowship groups (or house churches) fulfill this calling of Scripture.

It's the BIBLICAL way to do church.

We've had house church (simple church) gatherings at coffee shops (Tim Horton's, Higher Grounds, and Boston Stoker's) in the Dayton Ohio, Tipp City area. Place and building don't matter. The fuction of our gatherings is what matters. Do our gatherings fulfill the BIBLICAL mandate regarding what we are supposed to do when we come together??? If the congregation is too big to do the above... it's too large.
Two questions:

1.) What do we do with these commandments from Scripture above? We're told that the Bible doesn't tell us how to conduct church, but that's incorrect. It does.

2.) In these massive churches... does the pastor know the names and families of the members... or are they merely faceless "members" providing revenue to keep the massive operation (including salaries) alive?

My house church elder knows all of us very intimately. Ryan knows our names, our struggles, our families, our dreams, our callings, our gifts, our children, how they are doing in school, how our marriages are doing, how our careers are doing, etc. You can't beat that. I've been to massive churches. I attended one of nearly 500 for a long time. I know what it's like to go to church and be lost in the crowd. I know what it's like to maybe know a hand full of people scattered throughout the crowd in a massive sanctuary where we're told we're "fellowshipping", watching the Sunday show.

After house churching regularly for over a year... I can testify that it can't be beaten if done right. No one is lost in the crowd. The intimacy is very close. There is transparency. Your gifts are discovered and used. Lives are shared. No one dies with their music still inside them.

House churches can be scary too. The elder can look at you and interrupt the meeting and ask, "Brother, you seem to be struggling. Is the problem a sin? C'mon, open up. Get it in the light. Let's talk about it as a body and get this thing off your chest so you can spiritually breathe." And then the entire group is transfixed on you, a few silently praying. Your sin gathers in your throat, you don't know if you can admit it out loud. But the Holy Ghost prompts you and it begins to pour out like a flowing river. The fellowship gathers around you and prayers are made for you, each speaking in turn. It's POWERFUL. No dressing up, finding a pew, and hiding the pain. You can't hide in a house church as easily as you can in a massive mega church.

[Nitehawk013]

The church was birthed through house churches. How one can speak against it is beyond me.


This!

[Jay]

I will not claim the last word here, but many of the churches that are now the largest in Pentecost started out as either home or storefront churches. They grew as the need arose. My father started a home missions work, and for quite a while it was held in our home. I believe that it all depends on what is needed. I have seen pastors turn what should have been the living rooms in their home into the sanctuary, and lived in the back of the house. It all depends on what your goals are.

[ThePastorsCoach]

Just want to go on record that you house Organic meeting people have changed my mind. After thinking about this for a while, I have decided to try and find one of these house meetings or hmmm did you say "Organic" churches/fellowships/networks/gatherings/communes (people that worship in a house that was made to eat, sleep, bath and house and raise a family in) and send some people in our mega church (where God is not at because it is a building built and dedicated to Worship God in") to. I know several people that this would be a good fit for but they are the jumping, hollering, running around the building kind and it might be a bit small to run in - But I know some GOOD candidates for this and will encourage them to go and really get involved.
I AM FOR HOUSE Organic Oregano meetings & I think everyone there SHOULD NOT TITHE!

[Digging4Truth]

I will not claim the last word here, but many of the churches that are now the largest in Pentecost started out as either home or storefront churches. They grew as the need arose. My father started a home missions work, and for quite a while it was held in our home. I believe that it all depends on what is needed. I have seen pastors turn what should have been the living rooms in their home into the sanctuary, and lived in the back of the house. It all depends on what your goals are.

As long as AB has an internet connection you won't be having the last word. Don't fret about that. :)

Generally in the house church mentality there is never a need to grow. Only a need to multiply. When the house churches reach a certain capacity you then take some of your best families and leaders and send them off to start another house church and they all continue to fellowship together and multiply out in similar manner.

These churches work closely together and get together all in one place from time to time to maintain good fellowship between the groups.

[Aquila]

Just want to go on record that you house Organic meeting people have changed my mind. After thinking about this for a while, I have decided to try and find one of these house meetings or hmmm did you say "Organic" churches/fellowships/networks/gatherings/communes (people that worship in a house that was made to eat, sleep, bath and house and raise a family in) and send some people in our mega church (where God is not at because it is a building built and dedicated to Worship God in") to. I know several people that this would be a good fit for but they are the jumping, hollering, running around the building kind and it might be a bit small to run in - But I know some GOOD candidates for this and will encourage them to go and really get involved.
I AM FOR HOUSE Organic Oregano meetings & I think everyone there SHOULD NOT TITHE!

You still don't get it my dearest brother. :(

The issue is true discipleship and the "commandments of the Lord" given to us by Paul in I Corinthians 14. Jesus didn't call us to add members to an organization. Jesus called us to disciple. To disciple, you share life. Not just a couple ours two days a week. You bare your souls. There is nothing wrong with huge buildings. My church has an enormous campus. However, because we are a network of house churches, nearly 90% teaching, discipline, and discipleship takes takes place in our house churches. Each house church baptizes, marries, burries, and observes the Lord's Supper. Each house church is led by elders who are trained and properly licensed. It's estimated that nearly a 3rd of our membership within the network don't attend the weekly "gatherings" at the campus, they prefer the house church setting. And they are not required to attend the larger gatherings. It's a service to the body... not a service the body is beholden to.

The tithe is a debate that will rage far into the future. It's sad really. Had the Catholic Church not tried to revive the tithe to seize finances, we'd not be so divided.

[ThePastorsCoach]

You guys keep saying House Church like the House is the Church and we all know that buildings are not the Church but people are the Church! I wish you guys would get this right.
Slap your neighbor and say, A Church is not a Church because the People are the Church and a House is not a Church unless the House Church People say it is! AMEN! We all get it now!
Don't it just make you want to run from anything called a CHURCH and go a little house that is called a House Church where you can wear house shoes (or "no shoes" for that matter) and read the Bible and drink coffee and eat goulash and talk about those deceived people that go to buildings that are called CHURCH and how much better we are than them and teach them to STOP TITHING!
GO HOUSE CHURCH PEOPLE! GO! It just seems so exciting!

[Aquila]

You guys keep saying House Church like the House is the Church and we all know that buildings are not the Church but people are the Church! I wish you guys would get this right.
Slap your neighbor and say, A Church is not a Church because the People are the Church and a House is not a Church unless the House Church People say it is! AMEN! We all get it now!
Don't it just make you want to run from anything called a CHURCH and go a little house that is called a House Church where you can wear house shoes (or "no shoes" for that matter) and read the Bible and drink coffee and eat goulash and talk about those deceived people that go to buildings that are called CHURCH and how much better we are than them and teach them to STOP TITHING!
GO HOUSE CHURCH PEOPLE! GO! It just seems so exciting!

Yes the church is a people, not a building with a steeple. It's also not a house.

And when the "church" (the disciples of Jesus) meet Paul tells us several things are to take place....

- Everyone being able to bring a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation.
- Gift of tongues coupled with interpretation, two or at most three.
- Two or three anointed teachers speak and guide the meeting.
- If a saint attending has a revelation or something to share, whoever is speaking must stop and give them the floor so that all might be able to prophesy, learn, and be encouraged. Meetings are to be discussion based.
- Those who address the group must realize that their spirits are subject to the anointed teachers guiding the group.
- Women (or anyone for that matter) are not to use the time for socializing.
- Those who think they are spiritual Christians should acknowledge that this order of service is a command from the Lord.

All of this is found in (I Corinthians 14:26-38).

Now... if the disciples of Jesus strictly meet in a setting that is too large to facilitate this kind of body ministry... biblical fellowship and discipleship as Paul would describe it isn't taking place. Therefore, rather the church meets occasionally in large building or not (mine does) the small group gatherings are more beneficial for a deeper and more biblical Christian walk and experience.

[TGBTG]

You guys keep saying House Church like the House is the Church and we all know that buildings are not the Church but people are the Church! I wish you guys would get this right.
Slap your neighbor and say, A Church is not a Church because the People are the Church and a House is not a Church unless the House Church People say it is! AMEN! We all get it now!
Don't it just make you want to run from anything called a CHURCH and go a little house that is called a House Church where you can wear house shoes (or "no shoes" for that matter) and read the Bible and drink coffee and eat goulash and talk about those deceived people that go to buildings that are called CHURCH and how much better we are than them and teach them to STOP TITHING!
GO HOUSE CHURCH PEOPLE! GO! It just seems so exciting!

Actually, this is what everyone has been saying all along, which you have been ridiculing. The building is NOT the church. It is the people. Hence, whether they meet in a mega-building or in a little house, it's still CHURCH.

The emphasis being laid on house-church is that it is easier to get edified in a little group than in a large mega group. Everyone in a "little group" is able to participate during fellowship unlike in mega-churches where one just sits down and drinks from one person standing to talk. Simple as that...

[ThePastorsCoach]

WOW TGBTG - Thank you so much for clearing that us for those us us that thought God lived at the Church God! "It is the people". Incredible Revelation! I am overwhelmed!

I will tell those 20,000 that come through our campus on Sundays that they cannot participate and will just have to sit down and drink from one person standing to talk and it is as "simple as that..." Brilliant!

[ThePastorsCoach]

How many on here that go to a building called a Church or one that has a steeple or a cross on it - and you though that GOD lived in that building and by saying CHURCH that the building actually housed the Lord God of Heaven and Earth? Give me a break!
I have been in "church" all of my 55 years and never did think that God lived in the building and never met anyone that did!
This argument is stupid and it makes you look stupid when you argue that God does not abide in a building! Your arguing a moot point because NOBODY BELIEVES that God abides in their church building! You are just arguing for arguments sake and it makes you feel superior to tell everybody that your little house church meetings are better. They are not better - they are just more convenient for YOU and you like them more. More power to you.
God is where we are, in a mega-church like LAKEWOOD or POTTERS HOUSE or your little house. Get over it!

[Digging4Truth]

WOW TGBTG - Thank you so much for clearing that us for those us us that thought God lived at the Church God! "It is the people". Incredible Revelation! I am overwhelmed!

I will tell those 20,000 that come through our campus on Sundays that they cannot participate and will just have to sit down and drink from one person standing to talk and it is as "simple as that..." Brilliant!

Do you ever actually have a conversation on a subject like this or do you just continue to shovel sarcasm and condescending remarks at the subject and the people discussing it?

If you don't have anything to actually add to a conversation other than ridicule and disdain then why do you continue to just make snarky remarks page after page after page with nothing real to say?

I just cannot get my mind around why you continue when you know that all you have to add is smart mouthed remarks and ridicule for the way your brothers in Christ might choose to worship?

Do you consider what you are "adding" to this conversation to be substance of any kind?

Do you not consider that what you are "adding" to this conversation is little more than 200 proof ridicule for the way a brother might choose to worship God?

Do you consider what you "add" to be helpful to anyone/anything but your own ego?

I'm not trying to attack you or anything. I just cannot figure out why you continue to do what you do on subjects like this. I am sure there are subjects where you actually engage in the conversation but there are a few subjects, like this one, where all you ever do is cut people down for what they believe and make sarcastic remarks about nearly anything they say.

What does it add?
Why do you continue?

[Amanah]

I know an elderly Sister that taught us that to go to the church in the early morning to pray was the best time to reach God, as the angels were ascending and decending (the jacob's ladder thing) at that time.

I actually think a place and a person can be holy unto the Lord.

[TGBTG]

WOW TGBTG - Thank you so much for clearing that us for those us us that thought God lived at the Church God! "It is the people". Incredible Revelation! I am overwhelmed!

I will tell those 20,000 that come through our campus on Sundays that they cannot participate and will just have to sit down and drink from one person standing to talk and it is as "simple as that..." Brilliant!

I don't think you understood my previous comment. You were ridiculing the house church meetings and everyone was saying the building is NOT the church.

I think you should read my last post again, perhaps, your response might be changed.

[TGBTG]

How many on here that go to a building called a Church or one that has a steeple or a cross on it - and you though that GOD lived in that building and by saying CHURCH that the building actually housed the Lord God of Heaven and Earth? Give me a break!
I have been in "church" all of my 55 years and never did think that God lived in the building and never met anyone that did!
This argument is stupid and it makes you look stupid when you argue that God does not abide in a building! Your arguing a moot point because NOBODY BELIEVES that God abides in their church building! You are just arguing for arguments sake and it makes you feel superior to tell everybody that your little house church meetings are better. They are not better - they are just more convenient for YOU and you like them more. More power to you.
God is where we are, in a mega-church like LAKEWOOD or POTTERS HOUSE or your little house. Get over it!

Honestly, I don't think you get it. Really, you don't. Nobody is arguing for building (large or small).

We are talking about the edification of the body.

[ThePastorsCoach]

Do you ever actually have a conversation on a subject like this or do you just continue to shovel sarcasm and condescending remarks at the subject and the people discussing it?

If you don't have anything to actually add to a conversation other than ridicule and disdain then why do you continue to just make snarky remarks page after page after page with nothing real to say?

I just cannot get my mind around why you continue when you know that all you have to add is smart mouthed remarks and ridicule for the way your brothers in Christ might choose to worship?

Do you consider what you are "adding" to this conversation to be substance of any kind?

Do you not consider that what you are "adding" to this conversation is little more than 200 proof ridicule for the way a brother might choose to worship God?

Do you consider what you "add" to be helpful to anyone/anything but your own ego?

I'm not trying to attack you or anything. I just cannot figure out why you continue to do what you do on subjects like this. I am sure there are subjects where you actually engage in the conversation but there are a few subjects, like this one, where all you ever do is cut people down for what they believe and make sarcastic remarks about nearly anything they say.

What does it add?
Why do you continue?

I don't care where you worship! I have worshiped and led worship under a tree in the middle of a cow pasture in Cuba and preached to 150,000 in a massive church in Nigeria, West Africa. I have preached in slums, shacks, tents, storefronts, cathedrals, city auditoriums, houses, barns, in the park, on the rooftop, street corners, sidewalks, in front yards, on buses, in cars, trains, planes and in 61 nations and have sense enough to know GOD DOES NOT DWELL IN BUILDINGS MADE WITH HANDS!
The condescending, rude, sarcastic, ridiculing, "snarky" (never heard that word before), smart mouthed remarks have been made about people that think "the building is the church". I have never know anybody in my life that believed that! These guys must be in a highly Catholic area or something where they think God lives in the Catholic Cathedral. I have never actually met anyone that believed that and certainly not any Pentecostals that I have ever met.
If you can't stand the heat - get out of the kitchen! If you don't like large Churches - don't go! If you don't like house churches - don't go!

Your argument that every time someone says CHURCH that you hate it because you THINK they are saying the Church is a building... is STUPID! NOBODY is saying the building is the place where God lives! Lord have mercy!

[Aquila]

How many on here that go to a building called a Church or one that has a steeple or a cross on it - and you though that GOD lived in that building and by saying CHURCH that the building actually housed the Lord God of Heaven and Earth? Give me a break!
I have been in "church" all of my 55 years and never did think that God lived in the building and never met anyone that did!
This argument is stupid and it makes you look stupid when you argue that God does not abide in a building! Your arguing a moot point because NOBODY BELIEVES that God abides in their church building! You are just arguing for arguments sake and it makes you feel superior to tell everybody that your little house church meetings are better. They are not better - they are just more convenient for YOU and you like them more. More power to you.
God is where we are, in a mega-church like LAKEWOOD or POTTERS HOUSE or your little house. Get over it!

AB, you're precious. lol

You aren't getting it. The issue isn't house vs. church building. The issue is the biblical methods of discipleship. When we meet Paul specifically states that the following should occur in I Corinthians 14:26-38:

- Everyone being able to bring a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation.
- Gift of tongues coupled with interpretation, two or at most three.
- Two or three anointed teachers speak and guide the meeting.
- If a saint attending has a revelation or something to share, whoever is speaking must stop and give them the floor so that all might be able to prophesy, learn, and be encouraged. Meetings are to be discussion based.
- Those who address the group must realize that their spirits are subject to the anointed teachers guiding the group.
- Women (or anyone for that matter) are not to use the time for socializing.
- Those who think they are spiritual Christians should acknowledge that this order of service is a command from the Lord.

Notice a very important verse:

I Corinthians 14:37
37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

God commands that the above be present when disciples of Jesus gather together. If the above commandments cannot be obeyed or a setting isn't provided where they can be put into practice, biblical discipleship and gathering ISN'T taking place.

This isn't about houses vs. church buildings. This is about obeying the Word of God as it relates to how God commands our gatherings to be. A small group setting of no more than 12 to 20 adults is the largest the format God gave us can be applied to.

AB... if I attended one of your mega churches could I walk up to the platform, request the microphone, and share a passage and what the Lord put on my heart at will??? Would the pastor of that mega church "hold his peace" as I essentially "preached" to the people? Could anyone in the congregation comment and request the microphone after I used it? Would the song leader allow me to sing or play a song God put on my heart for the congregation if I walked up and requested to do it during service? If not... the meeting isn't biblical. In God's order, every child of God has a voice, a gift, and something to contribute. In man's model... we're passive spectators expected to do nothing more than show up, smile, cheer lead the preacher, and give our money.

This is an obedience issue. Not a house vs. building issue. Obeying what Paul told us are commandments from the Lord regarding our gathering together.

[Digging4Truth]

I don't care where you worship! I have worshiped and led worship under a tree in the middle of a cow pasture in Cuba and preached to 150,000 in a massive church in Nigeria, West Africa. I have preached in slums, shacks, tents, storefronts, cathedrals, city auditoriums, houses, barns, in the park, on the rooftop, street corners, sidewalks, in front yards, on buses, in cars, trains, planes and in 61 nations and have sense enough to know GOD DOES NOT DWELL IN BUILDINGS MADE WITH HANDS!
The condescending, rude, sarcastic, ridiculing, "snarky" (never heard that word before), smart mouthed remarks have been made about people that think "the building is the church". I have never know anybody in my life that believed that! These guys must be in a highly Catholic area or something where they think God lives in the Catholic Cathedral. I have never actually met anyone that believed that and certainly not any Pentecostals that I have ever met.
If you can't stand the heat - get out of the kitchen! If you don't like large Churches - don't go! If you don't like house churches - don't go!

Your argument that every time someone says CHURCH that you hate it because you THINK they are saying the Church is a building... is STUPID! NOBODY is saying the building is the place where God lives! Lord have mercy!

And yet... you continue.

[Aquila]

Do you ever actually have a conversation on a subject like this or do you just continue to shovel sarcasm and condescending remarks at the subject and the people discussing it?

If you don't have anything to actually add to a conversation other than ridicule and disdain then why do you continue to just make snarky remarks page after page after page with nothing real to say?

I just cannot get my mind around why you continue when you know that all you have to add is smart mouthed remarks and ridicule for the way your brothers in Christ might choose to worship?

Do you consider what you are "adding" to this conversation to be substance of any kind?

Do you not consider that what you are "adding" to this conversation is little more than 200 proof ridicule for the way a brother might choose to worship God?

Do you consider what you "add" to be helpful to anyone/anything but your own ego?

I'm not trying to attack you or anything. I just cannot figure out why you continue to do what you do on subjects like this. I am sure there are subjects where you actually engage in the conversation but there are a few subjects, like this one, where all you ever do is cut people down for what they believe and make sarcastic remarks about nearly anything they say.

What does it add?
Why do you continue?

It's evident he's never been truly discipled. Else he wouldn't fear and display such an angry spirit about people who just want biblical discipleship in their gatherings.

Church isn't about a "sermon". It's about discipleship and fellowship. It's coming together to edify one another... not to have one man spoon feed us. It's about body ministry and everyone bringing their gifts to the table. AB has never been taught to spiritually walk in such a dynamic and powerful setting. He's used to the Sunday performance, the form and fashion of our traditional church methods. He hasn't come entirely out of the Catholic Apostasy yet. He still most likely observes the Lord's Supper like a Sacred Snack with a wafer and a thimble of grape juice, sacramentalizing it instead of understanding it's full purpose in the gathering as being an actual meal. You know, it was the Catholics who moved from a full meal to this wafer sacrament thing. Technically... it's not even the Lord's Supper. At best, it's definitely not the Lord's Supper as Jesus intended it.

So let's be merciful on AB. He's precious and just doesn't understand. He hasn't seen the Kingdom we see. He sees the Kingdom through the stained glass windows of the tradition he was taught not to challenge.

[Aquila]

I know an elderly Sister that taught us that to go to the church in the early morning to pray was the best time to reach God, as the angels were ascending and decending (the jacob's ladder thing) at that time.

I actually think a place and a person can be holy unto the Lord.

Is that in the Bible?

Remember, Stephen was stoned for stating that Christ was Lord and that God doesn't dwell in temples made with human hands.

[ThePastorsCoach]

Aquila, with all due respect, I do not believe a word of what you just posted. I love you but I honestly believe you are wrong. The early church met in houses AND temples and riverbanks and where ever they could find a place large enough to accommodate the crowds.
There was far more than 12 to 20 adults when they met. Actually, there were THOUSANDS!
My brother attends a house church and frequently teaches there. ROFL! I know you guys can't believe I am telling you this! I actually LOVE to go there and I don't wear house shoes either! LOL I will be there this Saturday evening. I can promise you - I could not just stand up and request to speak or take the mic from the Shepard or sing my song. It has order just like the New Testament Church did.
I may be wrong in this (I think I was wrong one other time in my life) but it seems to me what you are a part of is what we used to call - Free Pentecost where anything went and anybody could get up and say anything and believe you me - I have seen all that and more and want NO PART in it.
I love ORDER and teach Apostolic Order brings an Apostolic Anointing.
Now to have a house meeting where someone is in charge and directs and can tell people to sit down when they are out of order is fine with me. I have seen people out of order in a mega-church and in a small church and in a house church.
I hope you have a great day! We are feeding Jesus at the Prison today!
If you met me - you would laugh with me at all this! ;-)

[Aquila]

I don't care where you worship! I have worshiped and led worship under a tree in the middle of a cow pasture in Cuba and preached to 150,000 in a massive church in Nigeria, West Africa. I have preached in slums, shacks, tents, storefronts, cathedrals, city auditoriums, houses, barns, in the park, on the rooftop, street corners, sidewalks, in front yards, on buses, in cars, trains, planes and in 61 nations and have sense enough to know GOD DOES NOT DWELL IN BUILDINGS MADE WITH HANDS!
The condescending, rude, sarcastic, ridiculing, "snarky" (never heard that word before), smart mouthed remarks have been made about people that think "the building is the church". I have never know anybody in my life that believed that! These guys must be in a highly Catholic area or something where they think God lives in the Catholic Cathedral. I have never actually met anyone that believed that and certainly not any Pentecostals that I have ever met.
If you can't stand the heat - get out of the kitchen! If you don't like large Churches - don't go! If you don't like house churches - don't go!

Your argument that every time someone says CHURCH that you hate it because you THINK they are saying the Church is a building... is STUPID! NOBODY is saying the building is the place where God lives! Lord have mercy!

My experience has always been with the pastor saying, "I'm so thankful to be the HOUSE OF GOD today. Anyone else here thankful to be here? God has truly blessed us with this wonderful church building and facilities where His presence can be found. Let's remembe to faithfully give so that we can honor GOD'S HOUSE as it should be honored." Then the song leader leads the praise team with "We Are Standing On Holy Ground". I was always taught that unless I showed up at that holy building I was not "in church". Now I realize I can meet with a brother or hand full of brothers at a coffee shop and if we discuss Jesus, Scriptures, and edify one another, we've had church. I'm so thankful that this is about a Kingdom and not an organization or country club.

But again, that's not what we want YOU to address AB. We're looking to fulfill Corinthians 14:26-38. Something that can only be done in a smaller setting. Why do we want to fulfill it? Because that passage contains COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD concerning our gatherings.

[Nitehawk013]

Not to be argumentative AB, but where does that order...or liturgy...come from?

Where is it spelled out in the NT that when in service with the body, the order is that one man stands at an elevated desk and gives a monologue (preaching) and all others are supposed to simply sit and listen, with no chance to ask for clarification or share what God has spoken or shown to them?

Was you own education in the word better when you had to just sit and listen or when you were able to dialog with the teacher and ask questions to better your understanding?

[Aquila]

Aquila, with all due respect, I do not believe a word of what you just posted. I love you but I honestly believe you are wrong. The early church met in houses AND temples and riverbanks and where ever they could find a place large enough to accommodate the crowds.
There was far more than 12 to 20 adults when they met. Actually, there were THOUSANDS!
My brother attends a house church and frequently teaches there. ROFL! I know you guys can't believe I am telling you this! I actually LOVE to go there and I don't wear house shoes either! LOL I will be there this Saturday evening. I can promise you - I could not just stand up and request to speak or take the mic from the Shepard or sing my song. It has order just like the New Testament Church did.
I may be wrong in this (I think I was wrong one other time in my life) but it seems to me what you are a part of is what we used to call - Free Pentecost where anything went and anybody could get up and say anything and believe you me - I have seen all that and more and want NO PART in it.
I love ORDER and teach Apostolic Order brings an Apostolic Anointing.
Now to have a house meeting where someone is in charge and directs and can tell people to sit down when they are out of order is fine with me. I have seen people out of order in a mega-church and in a small church and in a house church.
I hope you have a great day! We are feeding Jesus at the Prison today!
If you met me - you would laugh with me at all this! ;-)

Frankly, I don't care if it's fine with you or not. :) It's a commandment from God that all be permitted to prophesy. However, I agree with Apostolic order as you do. The established prophets and elders who lead the group have authority to correct any brother or sister that they might learn the way more perfectly.

To neglect this format, the format God commands, is to be in rebellion.

I'm very supportive of larger gatherings and even mega gatherings. I also support house churches, home fellowship groups, care groups, and Bible study groups where there is body ministry. However, if a large church DOESN'T have a venue where all may prophesy and the body ministers to itself in discussion and teaching... they are failing the Biblical mandate and failing to properly disciple. Please note... no where are we commanded to have any other format in Scripture. This is the one that is an absolute MUST HAVE.

I pray that you see that we're talking about the value of gathering as commanded in I Corinthians 14:26-38 before worrying about all the buildings, programs, etc. I Corinthians 14:26-38 is Scripture. Having a choir and isles to run isn't. We must experience and empliment I Corinthians 14:26-38. And what we are commanded to do in here requires smaller groups.

[Aquila]

Please keep in mind that Jesus, our example, discipled only 12 men. Those little gatherings with Jesus and the twelve where Jesus teaches and disciples them is a perfect example of the type of close and intimate discipleship that house churches provide. Did they attend larger settings? Yes! But the deepest discipling took place in those campfire discussions between Jesus and the twelve.

[Aquila]

Lastly, we are not called to have stagnate membership that just gets hoarded up in a congregation somewhere (regardless of size). We are called to disciple and equip individuals to reach their world. The house church I attend has a goal. Within four years they expect the vast majority of us who continue to attend to at some point branch out and open our own homes for a house church. That's right... we don't desire anyone to sit on their laurals for 20 years or more as a mere "member" attending a meeting. The discipleship that takes place in the house churches I'm a part of is focused on equiping those present to become disciples of Jesus that reach their world. House churching doesn't grow by making members. House churching grows by multiplying fellowships home by home.

[Jay]

I do not support the house church movement as such. Everything I have read leads me to believe that they tend to be temporary rather unstable. Also, they seem to reject the idea of any spiritual authority and accountablility. I am not saying that all do, but that tends to be the attitude of the ones that I have talked to that left 'established' churches.

[ThePastorsCoach]

Thank you Jay! What a refreshing and finally truthful post on this thread!
It was stated by Aquila that the goal of the house churches is to start other house churches to start other house churches. He said "House churching grows by multiplying fellowships home by home."
The fact is most of them are temporary and unstable. They attract unstable and rebellious people that reject spiritual authority and accountability. They do not sit around and drink coffee and let everybody prophecy. The first time someone is told their "prophecy" is out of order...they get people riled up and leave and take a few with them and start their own little house meetings and talk about how bad they have been done until someone blows up on them and then it splits. Most of these little house prayer meeting/churches are here today and gone tomorrow. No stability at all.
My parents opened our home when I was a child and a church was started in our home. We grew until we had to move the church out of the house into a larger facility. We were there until we could buy property then build a building and today a great church is in that city. A house is a good way to gather your initial start ups but you have to have a plan. If the plan is just to start other start ups and keep having house churches where people sit around and tell stories about how bad the MEGA-CHURCHES are and how they could not jump up and take over the service, then that is so rebellious & disorderly and it will fail - and they do fail every week. I wish you guys would get off this rebellious kick of telling us how incredible the house churches are because most of us could tell you horror stories about the ones we know about. My youngest son was almost destroyed in one of these crazy "house churches". Thank God for a Pastor that took authority and stopped the meetings and ministered to my son and saved him from the whole rebellious "the building is not the church" rhetoric.

I love my church!
Come visit us a Free Chapel Worship Center in Gainesville, GA on Sundays at 9 AM & 11 AM or Orange County, CA at 10 AM, 4 PM & 6 PM.
www.FreeChapel.org

[Amanah]

I thought there was no mega church where I live, but I forgot about this one

http://www.calvaryccm.com/home.aspx

[ThePastorsCoach]

You know the greatest church you could ever hope to go to is right there in Melbourne and I have preached there more than any other place on the planet!. Be sure and get Dr. Tim McClure's new book - BEYOND CHURCH WALLS - a Fresh Look At Getting Church Out of Church!

For anyone on the Space Coast- visit PROMISELAND CHURCH with Dr. Tim McClure. http://promiseland.org

[Digging4Truth]

Thank you Jay! What a refreshing and finally truthful post on this thread!
It was stated by Aquila that the goal of the house churches is to start other house churches to start other house churches. He said "House churching grows by multiplying fellowships home by home."
The fact is most of them are temporary and unstable. They attract unstable and rebellious people that reject spiritual authority and accountability. They do not sit around and drink coffee and let everybody prophecy. The first time someone is told their "prophecy" is out of order...they get people riled up and leave and take a few with them and start their own little house meetings and talk about how bad they have been done until someone blows up on them and then it splits. Most of these little house prayer meeting/churches are here today and gone tomorrow. No stability at all.
My parents opened our home when I was a child and a church was started in our home. We grew until we had to move the church out of the house into a larger facility. We were there until we could buy property then build a building and today a great church is in that city. A house is a good way to gather your initial start ups but you have to have a plan. If the plan is just to start other start ups and keep having house churches where people sit around and tell stories about how bad the MEGA-CHURCHES are and how they could not jump up and take over the service, then that is so rebellious & disorderly and it will fail - and they do fail every week. I wish you guys would get off this rebellious kick of telling us how incredible the house churches are because most of us could tell you horror stories about the ones we know about. My youngest son was almost destroyed in one of these crazy "house churches". Thank God for a Pastor that took authority and stopped the meetings and ministered to my son and saved him from the whole rebellious "the building is not the church" rhetoric.

I love my church!
Come visit us a Free Chapel Worship Center in Gainesville, GA on Sundays at 9 AM & 11 AM or Orange County, CA at 10 AM, 4 PM & 6 PM.
www.FreeChapel.org

Your personal opinion is the Word of God itself in your mind and your posts demonstrate it again, and again, and again.

Some = all
What I heard = What is and always will be
If someone agrees with you = FINALLY... someone tells the truth
If someone disagrees with you = liars and idiots.

[Aquila]

I do not support the house church movement as such. Everything I have read leads me to believe that they tend to be temporary rather unstable. Also, they seem to reject the idea of any spiritual authority and accountablility. I am not saying that all do, but that tends to be the attitude of the ones that I have talked to that left 'established' churches.

They can seem temporary, but the philosophy is different. You see, a house church isn't focused on membership and establishment. They are way stations on the journey of personal salvation and spiritual growth. Many fade because they are not networked. I'd steer clear of a house church that isn't networked with others or a larger body.

One thing I know is manny hurt purple go to house church. Sometimes authority is feared. However, a healthy house church is more like a family than a corporation with a CEO. Elders are spiritual fathers, not little lords over the people. As a father counsels their children, but allow for choices that they may not easily support, so do house church elders. Also, as a father, elders counsel and guide through the consequences of their children's choices with love.

Lastly, house churches are rooted in the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers. Elders therefore are equals with a mentoring and guiding ministry through the pastoral gift. They are not men in a superior "position" to control others.

I hope that adds a bit of perspective.

God bless. :)

[Aquila]

You know the greatest church you could ever hope to go to is right there in Melbourne and I have preached there more than any other place on the planet!. Be sure and get Dr. Tim McClure's new book - BEYOND CHURCH WALLS - a Fresh Look At Getting Church Out of Church!

For anyone on the Space Coast- visit PROMISELAND CHURCH with Dr. Tim McClure. http://promiseland.org

I think the greatest church one can be an extension of is Christ's.