View Full Version : What measure of holiness are you ?
scotty
10-25-2011, 10:38 AM
So I'm writing a research paper on ..... "Research".... I know right ?
So anyway, I'm researching "Quantitive Measurement" and ran across this on a Q and A site.
Question: What is the unit of measure used to quantify holiness?
Answer: Jesus (Ye) for the US System, and for the SI unit system, the deity, (de) for those offended by the former. One Ye would equal 1/3 de. Standard prefixes would apply, thus we have the nanodeity, microdeity, millideity, kilodeity, and megadeity. Such a measurement would need to be on an asymptotic scale, like warp drive, in order to prescribe a finite number to an infinite positive. Then 777 megadeity = infinitely good = God. Billy Graham sits at about 10 megadeity. Your average pastor- around 6 Mde. The average schmo? 2-3 Mde, or about 1 MYe.
Of course, the trick to this will be separating the very good from the very twistedly evil who only appear good. This is where the reciprocal rule comes in handy.
ThePastorsCoach
10-25-2011, 10:44 AM
Does it depend on what we have on right now or how we look when we dress for Church? LOL
Seriously, (which I know it is hard to take me seriously) God is holy and we are not.
You can't get good enough to get God! God is Holy!
Scott Hutchinson
10-25-2011, 10:50 AM
We are holy because we have a imputation of The righteousness of God.
Aquila
10-25-2011, 11:05 AM
We are holy because we have a imputation of The righteousness of God.
Amen! Through the Holy Ghost. When we received the Holy Ghost the very Spirit of God became fused with our dead and lifeless human spirits allowing His very life and essence to flow through us. We are therefore unworthy partakers in His divine nature. We are, through the Holy Ghost, one with God in Christ Jesus!
As long as we allow God to flow through our very being and follow His leading we are holy. When we sin... we are acting below our nature in Christ by virtue of our union with God through the Holy Spirit. Thus we are a holy people acting unholy. Theoretically God will either irresitibly bring us to our knees in repentance through divine chastening (an act of loving mercy) or sever us from Himself (apostasy). But that's another theological debate. :)
Scott Hutchinson
10-25-2011, 11:09 AM
The Only Holiness we have is through the Blood Of Jesus Christ.
Austin
10-25-2011, 12:42 PM
Here's how holy I am. My righteousness is as a filthy rag in the sight of Jesus.
My spirit has been translated into his kingdom and that is total holiness.
Inside of me is the Holy Ghost who is trying his best, to bring the mind and flesh into subjection to his will that his will might be done, so, I'm not yet holy here on the earth.\
TGBTG
10-25-2011, 12:43 PM
Here's how holy I am. My righteousness is as a filthy rag in the sight of Jesus.
My spirit has been translated into his kingdom and that is total holiness.
Inside of me is the Holy Ghost who is trying his best, to bring the mind and flesh into subjection to his will that his will might be done, so, I'm not yet holy here on the earth.\
??
Digging4Truth
10-25-2011, 12:46 PM
I rest at 777 megadiety as any holiness I might possess does not come from myself... but from God.
Nitehawk013
10-25-2011, 12:54 PM
Personally I am at least at a 32MdE.
Hoovie
10-25-2011, 01:01 PM
I come from a long line of high holy people.
Digging4Truth
10-25-2011, 01:03 PM
I come from a long line of high holy people.
Well keep coming from them and you'll do fine. :)
pelathais
10-25-2011, 01:26 PM
So I'm writing a research paper on ..... "Research".... I know right ?
So anyway, I'm researching "Quantitive Measurement" and ran across this on a Q and A site.
Question: What is the unit of measure used to quantify holiness?
Answer: Jesus (Ye) for the US System, and for the SI unit system, the deity, (de) for those offended by the former. One Ye would equal 1/3 de. Standard prefixes would apply, thus we have the nanodeity, microdeity, millideity, kilodeity, and megadeity. Such a measurement would need to be on an asymptotic scale, like warp drive, in order to prescribe a finite number to an infinite positive. Then 777 megadeity = infinitely good = God. Billy Graham sits at about 10 megadeity. Your average pastor- around 6 Mde. The average schmo? 2-3 Mde, or about 1 MYe.
Of course, the trick to this will be separating the very good from the very twistedly evil who only appear good. This is where the reciprocal rule comes in handy.
I am sinless. That's how holy I am, for my holiness is the righteousness of Jesus Christ Himself (Romans 3:22-26).
Digging4Truth
10-25-2011, 01:27 PM
I am sinless. That's how holy I am, for my holiness is the righteousness of Jesus Christ Himself (Romans 3:22-26).
Now that's the truth right there. :)
ThePastorsCoach
10-25-2011, 02:11 PM
I am wearing pants and a long sleeve shirt today so you know I am holy!
Amanah
10-25-2011, 02:51 PM
I am wearing pants and a long sleeve shirt today so you know I am holy!
are your toes covered though?
Michael The Disciple
10-25-2011, 03:06 PM
Does God expect his children to be worthy of him and his Kingdom?
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 2 Thess. 1:4-5
Paul says:
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power: 2 Thess 1:11
And again:
11 As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father [doth] his children,
12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory. 1 Thess 2:12
Walk worthy?
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, Ephesians 4:1
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Col. 1:10
trialedbyfire
10-25-2011, 03:32 PM
I strive to live Holy every day by the power of the Holy Ghost through the blood of Jesus. What God would not have me do, I do not do, with the power he's given me. An ever changing progressing changing remolding, renewing, and tranformation of my mind. The Lord sure did have to work on me! He still is!
I come from a long line of high holy people.
So sorry to hear that drug abuse runs in your family!:happydance
houston
10-25-2011, 04:27 PM
at 666 megadeity
Timmy
10-25-2011, 04:36 PM
Does God expect his children to be worthy of him and his Kingdom?
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 2 Thess. 1:4-5
Paul says:
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power: 2 Thess 1:11
And again:
11 As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father [doth] his children,
12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory. 1 Thess 2:12
Walk worthy?
I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, Ephesians 4:1
10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; Col. 1:10
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Matthew 10:37
(I'm not worthy of Him, btw.)
pelathais
10-25-2011, 09:39 PM
Does God expect his children to be worthy of him and his Kingdom?
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 2 Thess. 1:4-5
Paul says:
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of [this] calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of [his] goodness, and the work of faith with power: 2 Thess 1:11
...
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Matthew 10:37
(I'm not worthy of Him, btw.)
So, how then do we "become worthy?"
Go back to 2 Thessalonians 1:4-5 (ESV) - but with verse 3 this time:
"We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing.
Therefore we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions that you are enduring.
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering--"
The Thessalonians didn't "have to do" anything to make themselves 'worthy.' They were already worthy because God Himself loved them and accounted them 'worthy.'
Also, 2 Thessalonians 1:11-12:
"To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ."
That is the essence of grace. God accounts us "worthy" when we were truly worthless. He then goes on to transform us by His grace to make us into a vessel "worthy of honor" (Romans 9:21-23).
I know that I do not have any holiness of myself, just as the moon has no light. However, I always strive to accurately reflect the holiness of God, without going through phases as the moon does. (I sometimes fear that my reflection is all too often cyclical.)
Michael The Disciple
10-26-2011, 01:37 AM
If one is automatically worthy why did Paul pray always that they WOULD BE counted worthy?
"To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ."
Of course the way he does it is by his power and grace. But again if theres nothing for us TO DO why would Paul waste his time always praying about it?
Austin
10-26-2011, 06:03 AM
The term; Counted worthy, is a term to mean, acknowledge someone, or pay attention to them because of their efforts. It means to be recognized.
It has nothing to do with salvation but rather a result of the fact that you are saved does it come forth.
To offer one a medal of recognition in the presences of their fellows.
TGBTG
10-26-2011, 07:30 AM
If one is automatically worthy why did Paul pray always that they WOULD BE counted worthy?
"To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ."
Of course the way he does it is by his power and grace. But again if theres nothing for us TO DO why would Paul waste his time always praying about it?
Can you mention some of the things we need to do?
Aquila
10-26-2011, 08:52 AM
Holiness is a lifelong process wherein one is lovingly conformed into the very image and likeness of Jesus through the Holy Spirit. And this process doesn't end until that final stretch on one's death bed. This process is known doctrinally as "sanctification". We stand in a justified state as we are sanctified by the power of God through the Holy Spirit.
Salvation isn't about not doing this or that in order to go to Heaven.
Salvation is about being conformed into the image and likeness of Jesus through the Holy Ghost, our "oneness" with God.
Jesus being formed in us is our salvation. Not a code of conduct or dress.
Timmy
10-26-2011, 08:57 AM
So, how then do we "become worthy?"
Go back to 2 Thessalonians 1:4-5 (ESV) - but with verse 3 this time:
"We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing.
Therefore we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions that you are enduring.
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering--"
The Thessalonians didn't "have to do" anything to make themselves 'worthy.' They were already worthy because God Himself loved them and accounted them 'worthy.'
Also, 2 Thessalonians 1:11-12:
"To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ."
That is the essence of grace. God accounts us "worthy" when we were truly worthless. He then goes on to transform us by His grace to make us into a vessel "worthy of honor" (Romans 9:21-23).
Am I worthless?
Timmy
10-26-2011, 08:58 AM
So, how then do we "become worthy?"
Go back to 2 Thessalonians 1:4-5 (ESV) - but with verse 3 this time:
"We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers, as is right, because your faith is growing abundantly, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing.
Therefore we ourselves boast about you in the churches of God for your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions that you are enduring.
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering--"
The Thessalonians didn't "have to do" anything to make themselves 'worthy.' They were already worthy because God Himself loved them and accounted them 'worthy.'
Where does it say that?
Digging4Truth
10-26-2011, 08:59 AM
Am I worthless?
Are you talking about to us? Or to God? :)
Timmy
10-26-2011, 09:02 AM
Can you mention some of the things we need to do?
Jesus listed some things.
Love Him more than you love your family.
Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give shelter to the homeless, visit prisoners.
Paul thanked God for the Thessalonians because their faith was growing, and because they loved each other.
Timmy
10-26-2011, 09:03 AM
Are you talking about to us? Or to God? :)
Am I worthless to God?
Am I worthless to you?
pelathais
10-26-2011, 10:25 AM
If one is automatically worthy why did Paul pray always that they WOULD BE counted worthy?
"To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ."
Of course the way he does it is by his power and grace. But again if theres nothing for us TO DO why would Paul waste his time always praying about it?
I don't believe that one is "automatically worthy," in the sense that there is not action involved from either side of the "transaction." God extends grace and then by faith, a believer extends faith in the saving power of that grace (Hebrews 11:6).
Paul's admonition that saving grace should bear fruit in the lives of the believers doesn't abrogate those conditions. Rather, he is admonishing the believers to allow the work of grace to bear its fruit so that they might not frustrate grace [Romans 6 (ESV)].
You've really answered your own question when you quoted, "To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthyof his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power..."
Paul isn't praying that the Thessalonians DO anything here. He is praying that GOD does something here. That's is, he is praying that GOD would make the Thessalonian believers worthy.
Digging4Truth
10-26-2011, 10:28 AM
Am I worthless to God?
Am I worthless to you?
See... now you've gone and made it all sound so serious. :)
Timmy
10-26-2011, 10:57 AM
See... now you've gone and made it all sound so serious. :)
Isn't it?
Michael The Disciple
10-26-2011, 12:10 PM
Jesus listed some things.
Love Him more than you love your family.
Feed the hungry, clothe the naked, give shelter to the homeless, visit prisoners.
Paul thanked God for the Thessalonians because their faith was growing, and because they loved each other.
There you go. Thats a good start.:highfive
Michael The Disciple
10-26-2011, 12:41 PM
Can you mention some of the things we need to do?
The truth is our santification/holiness must be total.
Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Cor. 7:1
I am not holy enough. My wife wont let me grow a beard.
bible says you are supposed to have one.
Michael The Disciple
10-26-2011, 01:27 PM
What measure of holiness?
15 but just as he who called you is holy, you yourselves also be holy in all of your behavior; 16 because it is written, “You shall be holy; for I am holy.” 1 Peter:1-15-16
Be holy like the Father is holy. Thats the standard for each Christian.
ThePastorsCoach
10-26-2011, 01:29 PM
I am not holy enough. My wife wont let me grow a beard.
bible says you are supposed to have one.
Stand up to her and tell her IT IS IN THE BIBLE and that AtlantaBishop has one and that makes it alright! You are SUPPOSED TO HAVE ONE! AMEN!
If you just GO to a Union Church (even if it is in a house) I think it might be LEGAL if you are not actually a member or if you don't get on the platform.
Actually, I am not sure God accepts your TITHES in a Union Church if you have growing a beard in your heart! You better ask the Pastor about that - He will probably say that God accepts them - just DON"T GET ON MY PLATFORM! :heeheehee
TGBTG
10-26-2011, 01:30 PM
The truth is our santification/holiness must be total.
Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Cor. 7:1
I am not against total sanctification. However, I believe if we have the HolySpirit, he will sanctify us. I believe, a person who is led by the Spirit will naturally do the comandments of Jesus such as loving God, loving their neighbors, witnessing to the lost...
I believe that a person DOES these things because he/she is filled with the Spirit NOT because he/she is trying to be saved.
That's why some of us here do not seem to agree with what you're saying or maybe implying.
You seem to imply that we should do things to get validated by God.
I believe we do things that are pleasing in God's eyes because he's already validated us.
TGBTG
10-26-2011, 01:32 PM
What measure of holiness?
15 but just as he who called you is holy, you yourselves also be holy in all of your behavior; 16 because it is written, “You shall be holy; for I am holy.” 1 Peter:1-15-16
Be holy like the Father is holy. Thats the standard for each Christian.
You're right. This is the standard. However, no amount of works/self-denial can ever make us as holy as the Father.
The only way you can be as Holy as the Father is if you have the Father himself living in you, and that is through the HolySpirit.
ThePastorsCoach
10-26-2011, 01:34 PM
I got Saved, Sanctified and filled with the Holy Ghost when I was 5!
At Sanctification - the Adamic nature was eradicated and we no longer have a propensity to sin. We are Holy! That is why they call us Holiness People! Actually - when growing up - we were referred to as "Hole ness" That clears that whole thing up!
HOLE NESS OR HELL!
Michael The Disciple
10-26-2011, 01:49 PM
I am not against total sanctification. However, I believe if we have the HolySpirit, he will sanctify us. I believe, a person who is led by the Spirit will naturally do the comandments of Jesus such as loving God, loving their neighbors, witnessing to the lost...
Yes God will sanctify us. But he will not do it apart from our faith.
I believe that a person DOES these things because he/she is filled with the Spirit NOT because he/she is trying to be saved.
Yes and no. Sure we obey because we are led by the Spirit. Are we still trying to be saved? I believe so. Salvation is not final till the end whether at our death or till the second coming.
TGBTG
10-26-2011, 01:57 PM
Yes God will sanctify us. But he will not do it apart from our faith.
Yes and no. Sure we obey because we are led by the Spirit. Are we still trying to be saved? I believe so. Salvation is not final till the end whether at our death or till the second coming.
Honestly bro, everyone's journey is an individual one with the Lord. Having said that, I know that I have eternal life right now. Jesus promised me eternal life while I'm still on earth according to John 5:24.
Sure, I will receive a new body at his appearance. That does not mean I am NOT a son of God. 1 John 3:2 says "NOW are we the sons of God..."
I am 100% guaranteed of heaven. Knowing that I'm sure of my eternal destiny, I have to then walk like a child of God. That is what I understand by walking worthy of my calling.
I've been called already. My actions just have to prove that I've been called and that's through the Spirit alone.
My thoughts anyway...
Michael The Disciple
10-26-2011, 02:02 PM
You're right. This is the standard. However, no amount of works/self-denial can ever make us as holy as the Father.
The only way you can be as Holy as the Father is if you have the Father himself living in you, and that is through the HolySpirit.
Did I say it is not the Holy Spirit in us that makes us holy? No. I teach that every time I teach on holiness. Why is it that people seem to fight against all the scriptures that say there are things we must do?
Plenty of scripture tells us what we must DO. I just quoted one.
Be holy. Now if God is doing it all why does Peter tell US to be holy? If its already a fact that we are holy without doing anything why does he tell his readers to BE HOLY?
People nowadays have certain concepts they believe yet many scriptures do not agree with their concept.
ThePastorsCoach
10-26-2011, 02:05 PM
Do you guys believe in Entire Sanctification that takes place instantly as the second definite act of grace where the Adamic nature is eradicated and you do not have any more propensity to sin? I was taught we make mistakes and have problems but if you are really sanctified holy, you don't sin any more. Is that what you guys believe?
TGBTG
10-26-2011, 02:12 PM
Did I say it is not the Holy Spirit in us that makes us holy? No. I teach that every time I teach on holiness. Why is it that people seem to fight against all the scriptures that say there are things we must do?
Plenty of scripture tells us what we must DO. I just quoted one.
Be holy. Now if God is doing it all why does Peter tell US to be holy? If its already a fact that we are holy without doing anything why does he tell his readers to BE HOLY?
People nowadays have certain concepts they believe yet many scriptures do not agree with their concept.
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
It is God that works in us. We have to yield to his will, hence, we work out salvation. It's synergistic in my opinion.
TGBTG
10-26-2011, 02:14 PM
Do you guys believe in Entire Sanctification that takes place instantly as the second definite act of grace where the Adamic nature is eradicated and you do not have any more propensity to sin? I was taught we make mistakes and have problems but if you are really sanctified holy, you don't sin any more. Is that what you guys believe?
The bible does not say we cannot sin. It says we should mortify the desires of the flesh. The bible says "in our flesh is no GOOD thing. Sin dwells in our flesh." As long as you have flesh, you have the possibility to sin. BUT, we do NOT have to let sin reign in our mortal bodies
Michael The Disciple
10-26-2011, 02:16 PM
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
It is God that works in us. We have to yield to his will, hence, we work out salvation. It's synergistic in my opinion.
Sure just remember that yielding to his will is in the words of scripture the same thing as "doing his will". The same thing as being "obedient" to his will. If one does this he shall be saved. If not he shall be cast into the Lake Of Fire.
ThePastorsCoach
10-26-2011, 02:16 PM
No one has answered my questions! Are you Saved, Sanctified and filled with the Holy Ghost?
TGBTG
10-26-2011, 02:20 PM
No one has answered my questions! Are you Saved, Sanctified and filled with the Holy Ghost?
I am
Saved by the blood of Christ.
Filled and sanctified by his Spirit
Michael The Disciple
10-26-2011, 02:25 PM
Do you guys believe in Entire Sanctification that takes place instantly as the second definite act of grace where the Adamic nature is eradicated and you do not have any more propensity to sin? I was taught we make mistakes and have problems but if you are really sanctified holy, you don't sin any more. Is that what you guys believe?
I believe we are made perfect in the sight of God when we repent, are baptized into Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit. From there its a walk of faith to maintain the perfection in Christ. If one would sin they are no longer perfect to him. They are restored by repenting. If they dont repent they will not be restored.
I believe all Christians are subject to temptation. Yet no Christian is subject to sin. Being tempted is not the same as commiting sin. There is no reason a Christian should commit sin. I agree that sure we make make errors in judgment that are not counted as sins.
ThePastorsCoach
10-26-2011, 02:26 PM
Like the song says:
I am saved, sanctified, Holy Ghost Filled and water baptized, I got Jesus on my side and I'm runnin' for my life!
TAKING OFF FOR A RUNNING SPELL IN MY HOUSE!!!!!!! I think I just started a HOUSE CHURCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TGBTG
10-26-2011, 02:27 PM
I believe we are made perfect in the sight of God when we repent, are baptized into Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit. From there its a walk of faith to maintain the perfection in Christ. If one would sin they are no longer perfect to him. They are restored by repenting. If they dont repent they will not be restored.
I believe all Christians are subject to temptation. Yet no Christian is subject to sin. Being tempted is not the same as commiting sin. There is no reason a Christian should commit sin. I agree that sure we make make errors in judgment that are not counted as sins.
...and why would they not be counted as sin? what scripture bro?
Michael The Disciple
10-26-2011, 02:32 PM
...and why would they not be counted as sin? what scripture bro?
If it is stated as a sin in scripture it will be counted as sin. "Mistakes" we make due to errors in judgment might look like choosing the wrong Church. Choosing the wrong wife. Things that can hurt our walk but are done because of not knowing clearly what should be done.
TGBTG
10-26-2011, 02:34 PM
If it is stated as a sin in scripture it will be counted as sin. "Mistakes" we make due to errors in judgment might look like choosing the wrong Church. Choosing the wrong wife. Things that can hurt our walk but are done because of not knowing clearly what should be done.
gotcha...
Now I'm about to go marry that girl down the road...lol
Michael The Disciple
10-26-2011, 02:41 PM
Holiness is a lifelong process wherein one is lovingly conformed into the very image and likeness of Jesus through the Holy Spirit. And this process doesn't end until that final stretch on one's death bed. This process is known doctrinally as "sanctification". We stand in a justified state as we are sanctified by the power of God through the Holy Spirit.
Salvation isn't about not doing this or that in order to go to Heaven.
Salvation is about being conformed into the image and likeness of Jesus through the Holy Ghost, our "oneness" with God.
Jesus being formed in us is our salvation. Not a code of conduct or dress.
The scripture do not teach it takes a lifetime to be made holy. We are to be holy right now. We can mature in the knowledge of the scriptures. We can mature in walking closer to Jesus.
One should not assume if they have sin in their life they stand "justified" to Jesus. That they have a lifetime to overcome. If one is not sanctified he is not justified indefinitely.
Aquila
10-27-2011, 06:17 AM
The scripture do not teach it takes a lifetime to be made holy. We are to be holy right now. We can mature in the knowledge of the scriptures. We can mature in walking closer to Jesus.
One should not assume if they have sin in their life they stand "justified" to Jesus. That they have a lifetime to overcome. If one is not sanctified he is not justified indefinitely.
Michael, you teach false doctrine (Annihilationism). False doctrine is a serious sin the last time I checked. It's lying in the name of God. Do you believe that if you are incorrect, you are justified and God's correction of your misunderstandings is a part of your sanctification?
Aquila
10-27-2011, 06:20 AM
One is made holy by virtue of their oneness with Christ through the Holy Spirit. They are separated unto God the moment they receive the Holy Spirit, they are holy. Now, sanctification is the process through which one takes on the mind of Christ and is conformed into the image of Christ. And this process takes longer for some than others as they learn to surrender their will to God and walk after the Spirit.
Please note, there are sins against the Holy Spirit. We can resist the Spirit's convicting power for a season (Acts 7:51). Then we begin to quench the Spirit's power and presence in our lives through ourcontinual sin (I Thessalonians 5:19). Then we begin insulting the Holy Spirit by making a mockery of grace if we are not broken and contrite over our sins (Hebrews 10:29). This is the stage we know as being "backslidden". Finally, it is believed that one can drift so far into sin that they begin to have a hatred for Christ's authority and power. This hatred can lead to the final sin against the Holy Spirit making one an apostate who is beyond recovery, a sin that strikes at the very heart of who and what God is... a sin known as "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 12:31-32).
We've all resisted the Spirit's leading in our lives at one point or another. Some have even quenched the Spirit's power and presence in their lives as doubts, sin, and fear have taken a hold. Many have insulted the Holy Spirit and walked away or remained in willful sin in spite of being convicted time and time again. And the greatest horror is that some have blasphemed the Holy Spirit and are beyond ever being redeemed, having become an outright enemy of God.
Most Christians exist in a state wherein they experience great victory... only to find a season wherein they struggle with surrendering the will of self to the Holy Spirit. They have good days and bad days. They are still justified by their faith in the blood of Christ. However, they are learning to grow in sanctification as they continue learning how to surrender.
Timmy
10-27-2011, 08:01 AM
Michael, you teach false doctrine (Annihilationism). False doctrine is a serious sin the last time I checked. It's lying in the name of God. Do you believe that if you are incorrect, you are justified and God's correction of your misunderstandings is a part of your sanctification?
He may be mistaken. Are you sure every doctrine you teach is correct? If you are mistaken about one of them, are you sinning?
Aquila
10-27-2011, 08:40 AM
He may be mistaken. Are you sure every doctrine you teach is correct? If you are mistaken about one of them, are you sinning?
That's my point. ;)
We all are struggling with various sins and inclinations of the flesh. Sanctification is a life long process. Because the goal isn't to abide by a code of standards... but to be conformed into the image of Jesus. That means... to be made as holy as God Himself. Therefore, the process is one that cannot be completed in a week, a month, a year, a decade, or even a century. The process only ends upon what is known as "glorification". That's when we arise with glorified bodies.
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Since the process ends upon glorification... sanctification must be regarded as a life long process of death to sin and self. There are ups and downs during this process. Even our failures can serve to benefit us if we learn how to recognize and understand the depth of our sinful nature and our need of a Saviour through them. We haven't "arrived" in our sanctification until we are glorified at Christ's coming. For then... we shall be like Him, His very person and nature being formed in our being.
Many think they have "arrived" with regards to holiness and sanctification. They are dreadfully wrong. They don't fully grasp the relationship between the doctrines of justification, adoption, sanctification, and glorification.
Timmy
10-27-2011, 09:25 AM
That's my point. ;)
We all are struggling with various sins and inclinations of the flesh. Sanctification is a life long process. Because the goal isn't to abide by a code of standards... but to be conformed into the image of Jesus. That means... to be made as holy as God Himself. Therefore, the process is one that cannot be completed in a week, a month, a year, a decade, or even a century. The process only ends upon what is known as "glorification". That's when we arise with glorified bodies.
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Since the process ends upon glorification... sanctification must be regarded as a life long process of death to sin and self. There are ups and downs during this process. Even our failures can serve to benefit us if we learn how to recognize and understand the depth of our sinful nature and our need of a Saviour through them. We haven't "arrived" in our sanctification until we are glorified at Christ's coming. For then... we shall be like Him, His very person and nature being formed in our being.
Many think they have "arrived" with regards to holiness and sanctification. They are dreadfully wrong. They don't fully grasp the relationship between the doctrines of justification, adoption, sanctification, and glorification.
Some sins are good for you, than. OK. ;)
Aquila
10-27-2011, 09:40 AM
Some sins are good for you, than. OK. ;)
No sin is good Timmy. But yes, I do have my struggle with sin and the flesh.
Timmy
10-27-2011, 10:13 AM
No sin is good Timmy. But yes, I do have my struggle with sin and the flesh.
What about those failures that benefit you?
Michael The Disciple
10-27-2011, 11:15 AM
Michael, you teach false doctrine (Annihilationism). False doctrine is a serious sin the last time I checked. It's lying in the name of God. Do you believe that if you are incorrect, you are justified and God's correction of your misunderstandings is a part of your sanctification?
Since you keep attacking me on this I will respond. I believed in the false doctrine of "immortal soul" for 16 years. The first time I studied the matter for myself I saw it was clearly a false doctrine and turned from it. It was just like when I saw the error of Trinity. As I understand it you are a Trinitarian yea?
Annihilation is the doctrine of the Bible with its underlying foundation in the Old Testament that the soul than sins shall die. Ezekiel 18:4. It is brought right into the New Testament in many scriptures. The most easy to immediately notice is that the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23
No I am not in sin for believing the truth. If you want to argue about it start another thread. Whenever it gets more exposure people are drawn to it because thats where the spirit of truth leads. So go for it.
And having said that consider this. If I was wrong and in sin because of this how will that excuse someone else who is living in sin and claiming "justification"? Hardly will one who is commiting sin be excused because some else is commiting sin.
Personal attacks against ones character like you do against me will not do anything to change Gods mind against sin. He opposes it. He will not show partiality in dealing with it. He considers anyone commiting it as his enemy.
What pleases him is when one loves him out of a pure heart. When one is passionately going after him all the way. Wanting to do his will not running from it. Think about it.
Aquila
10-27-2011, 11:22 AM
What about those failures that benefit you?
I've learned about myself, my nature, and my need of a Savior.
Aquila
10-27-2011, 11:48 AM
Since you keep attacking me on this I will respond. I believed in the false doctrine of "immortal soul" for 16 years. The first time I studied the matter for myself I saw it was clearly a false doctrine and turned from it. It was just like when I saw the error of Trinity. As I understand it you are a Trinitarian yea?
Annihilation is the doctrine of the Bible with its underlying foundation in the Old Testament that the soul than sins shall die. Ezekiel 18:4. It is brought right into the New Testament in many scriptures. The most easy to immediately notice is that the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23
No I am not in sin for believing the truth. If you want to argue about it start another thread. Whenever it gets more exposure people are drawn to it because thats where the spirit of truth leads. So go for it.
And having said that consider this. If I was wrong and in sin because of this how will that excuse someone else who is living in sin and claiming "justification"? Hardly will one who is commiting sin be excused because some else is commiting sin.
Personal attacks against ones character like you do against me will not do anything to change Gods mind against sin. He opposes it. He will not show partiality in dealing with it. He considers anyone commiting it as his enemy.
What pleases him is when one loves him out of a pure heart. When one is passionately going after him all the way. Wanting to do his will not running from it. Think about it.
Do you believe that one is instantly lost if they commit a sin, or do you believe God convicts them, deals with them, and should they resist or quench His Spirit's dealing with them they cross a fine line wherein He cuts them off into state where they are backslidden, yet He is continuing to draw them?
As for false doctrine. Humor me... what if you're wrong and it is a false doctrine??? Do you believe that you're still justified through faith in Christ's blood and God will correct your understanding either here or in the world to come?
Aquila
10-27-2011, 11:49 AM
Since you keep attacking me on this I will respond. I believed in the false doctrine of "immortal soul" for 16 years. The first time I studied the matter for myself I saw it was clearly a false doctrine and turned from it. It was just like when I saw the error of Trinity. As I understand it you are a Trinitarian yea?
Annihilation is the doctrine of the Bible with its underlying foundation in the Old Testament that the soul than sins shall die. Ezekiel 18:4. It is brought right into the New Testament in many scriptures. The most easy to immediately notice is that the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23
No I am not in sin for believing the truth. If you want to argue about it start another thread. Whenever it gets more exposure people are drawn to it because thats where the spirit of truth leads. So go for it.
And having said that consider this. If I was wrong and in sin because of this how will that excuse someone else who is living in sin and claiming "justification"? Hardly will one who is commiting sin be excused because some else is commiting sin.
Personal attacks against ones character like you do against me will not do anything to change Gods mind against sin. He opposes it. He will not show partiality in dealing with it. He considers anyone commiting it as his enemy.
What pleases him is when one loves him out of a pure heart. When one is passionately going after him all the way. Wanting to do his will not running from it. Think about it.
Please note... there have been misunderstandings and I've seen bad attitudes that are not Christlike out of you Michael. Frankly, I've seen them out of us all from time to time. Do you become lost and get "re-saved" when that happens?
Michael The Disciple
10-27-2011, 11:57 AM
Aquila
We all are struggling with various sins and inclinations of the flesh.
To struggle against sin is good. To defeat it. To give in to sin is very dangerous. The struggle is not something bad it is essential to overcoming.
Sanctification is a life long process.
This is true in that we are to be sanctified all the days of our Christian life. It is certainly not true that it takes ones whole life to attain.
Holiness and sanctification come from the same Greek word as in this scripture.
Follow peace with all men and holiness without which no man shall see the Lord. Heb. 12:14
A life long process? What if your life is very short? Last I knew we are not given to know how long we will live. If one who has been saved 6 months suddenly dies he must be sanctified, living holy to see God.
Therefore, the process is one that cannot be completed in a week, a month, a year, a decade, or even a century. The process only ends upon what is known as "glorification".
Again Evangelical doctrine fails against the word of God.
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to the intent that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we would live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world; Titus 2:11-12
The grace that the Apostles taught was powerful to cause men to live godly, soberly, and righteous right here and now. This is the only acceptable walk for a Christian. Anything less than this is not pleasing to God. It is living apart from the grace available to overcome.
Timmy
10-27-2011, 12:31 PM
I've learned about myself, my nature, and my need of a Savior.
Is that not a good thing?
Aquila
10-27-2011, 02:53 PM
Is that not a good thing?
Yes, that is. But the sin itself isn't. Sin always brings negative consequences.
Timmy
10-27-2011, 03:08 PM
Yes, that is. But the sin itself isn't. Sin always brings negative consequences.
Make up your mind!
mizpeh
10-27-2011, 03:29 PM
It depends on what you mean by "holy".
Timmy
10-27-2011, 04:02 PM
Am I worthless to God?
Am I worthless to you?
They seem like simple questions. :dunno
Timmy
10-28-2011, 09:18 AM
Am I worthless to God?
Am I worthless to you?
Do I have to answer them for you? :foottap
Timmy
10-29-2011, 08:30 AM
Am I worthless to God?
Am I worthless to you?
Do I have to answer them for you? :foottap
Goodness! You people have trouble with the simplest questions! :lol
Fine. I'll answer them for you.
Am I worthless to God?
No.
Am I worthless to you?
No.
Timmy
10-29-2011, 04:46 PM
Don't let me interrupt. Carry on! ;)
houston
10-29-2011, 08:54 PM
oh wow.
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