Book Discussion: Pagan Christianity

[Amanah]

Viola, Frank
Pagan Christianity? : exploring the roots of our church practices/Frank Viola and George Barna. Tyndale, 2002, 2008


I'm going to be commenting on the above book. I'll be making posts on the book as I read it. This first post covers a few thoughts from Chapter 2 of the book.

Chapter 2 of Pagan Christianity points out on pages 10-11 that :

"Ancient Judaism was centered on three elements: the Temple, the priesthood, and the sacrifice. When Jesus came, He ended all three, fulfilling them in Himself. He is the temple who embodies a new and living house . . . He is the priest . . . and He is the perfect and finished sacrifice."

"In Greco-Roman paganism, these three elements were also present: Pagans had their temples, their priests, and their sacrifices. It was only the Christians who did away with all of these elements."

The point being made in Chapter two is that when Constantine became Emperor of Rome, He reintroduced pagan aspects into Christianity: temples, priests, relics, worship of the dead, and sacred spaces.

In Christianity there were to be no sacred spaces. People are to be the temple of the Lord. Constantine introduced the idea of the holy site. Most of the churches he built were built on the tombs of dead saints as he incorporated worship of the dead into the Christian faith. He created temples that copied pagan religious systems and reintroduced the concept of temples, priests, and sacred spaces.

"Almost to the dying day, Constantine 'still functioned as the high priest of pagansim.' In fact, he retained the pagan title Pontifex Maximum, which means chief of the pagan priests." The same title used for the Pope today. (Viola 19)

When Constantine structured the church around pagan practices that make the building a sacred space, and the priests the focal point of the service, Christians were robbed of their true identity in Christ and turned into spectators of a religious ritual.

I'll comment more as I read more.

[Amanah]

Still in Chapter 2

I kind of knew this information, but didn't realize the full extent of the pagan influence on the Catholic Church.
I've spent time in Germany, Italy, and France and have seen the beauty and grandeur of many of these churches first hand. They truly are the glory of Europe. In many villages the church is the show piece and center of life till this day. I've spend many hours wandering around in Cathedrals and marveling at Romanesque and Gothic structures, their art, spires and stained glass windows. I know that in the Middle Ages, for the unlettered masses, the Church (steeped in pagan ritual as it was) was the only way people had to know the history and stories of their God. For depicted on the churches in art are the stories of the fall and redemption of mankind.

back to the book

Constantine Churches were fashioned after pagan temples.

Holy water, a purification ritual before entering the temple
Churches were decorated with pagan art
Basilicas were designed for sun worship, so faced the east
the bread and wine represented the sacred sacrifice
the Bishop's chair was called the Cathedra (the throne)
the pomp and ritual also derived from pagans
Roman Emperors appeared in public with lights, candles, incense and processional music

side note: I have a new favorite breakfast. I scoop some oatmeal in a bowl, add a chopped apple, cover with just enough water to cover the oatmeal but not the apple, microwave for 5 minutes at 50% power. After cooked add cinnamon, almond milk, and Stevia and eat. It's really good.

[Amanah]

I think it is sad when people cannot appreciate the Cathedrals of Europe as art. We have lost many beautiful works of art to religious zealots. Pardon the detour; it's a product of an UC religious background, combined with a Liberal Arts Education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamyan

Buddhas of Bamiyan

The Buddhas of Bamiyan (Persian: بت های باميان – but hay-e bamiyan) were two 6th century[1] monumental statues of standing buddhas carved into the side of a cliff in the Bamyan valley in the Hazarajat region of central Afghanistan, situated 230 km (140 mi) northwest of Kabul at an altitude of 2,500 meters (8,202 ft). Built in 507 CE, the larger in 554 CE,[1] the statues represented the classic blended style of Gandhara art.[2]

The main bodies were hewn directly from the sandstone cliffs, but details were modeled in mud mixed with straw, coated with stucco. This coating, practically all of which was worn away long ago, was painted to enhance the expressions of the faces, hands and folds of the robes; the larger one was painted carmine red and the smaller one was painted multiple colors.[3]

The lower parts of the statues' arms were constructed from the same mud-straw mix while supported on wooden armatures. It is believed that the upper parts of their faces were made from great wooden masks or casts. The rows of holes that can be seen in photographs were spaces that held wooden pegs which served to stabilize the outer stucco.

They were dynamited and destroyed in March 2001 by the Taliban, on orders from leader Mullah Mohammed Omar,[4] after the Taliban government declared that they were "idols".[5] International opinion strongly condemned the destruction of the Buddhas, which was viewed as an example of the intolerance of the Taliban. Japan and Switzerland, among others, have pledged support for the rebuilding of the statues.[6]

[Amanah]

So, I'm finished with Chapter 2 which can be summarized fairly well by the following quote from page 42:

"We have become victims of our past. We have been fathered by Constantine who gave us the prestigious status of owning a building. We have been blinded by the Romans and Greeks who forced upon us their hierarchically structured basilicas. We have been taken by the Goths who imposed upon us their Platonic architecture. We have been hijacked by the Egyptians and Babylonians who gave us our sacred steeples. . . The building is an architectural denial of the priesthood of all believers."

On Page 30 thru 46 Viola continues his critique with Protestant churches. He thinks that we have taken the Pagan Catholic model and changed a few things like replacing the altar table with the pulpit. We have kept the steeple, which he equates to the obelisks of Eqypt. The Pulpit and preaching is central in our contemporary churches, and he sees this as a problem because he feels that the platform, pulpit and choir server the purpose of educating, entertaining, reaching lost souls, ect, But he sees the people in the pews as non participants.

I'm having problems with the book at this point for a few reasons. Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost. If we are having revival in church, the Word is being preached, and souls are being saved, that can't be all bad right? The point of going to church is not to be non-participatory, but to bring people to church with you so they can hear the gospel and be saved.

I'm also thinking about the books that I have read about Azusa street now and wondering about the services described in those books. I've read that people met to pray and God took over the services. That people took turns bringing the message as God led them. There were testimonies, preaching, gifts in operation as the Spirit led.

Of course the central message of this book is that the early church first met in homes and that people were able to participate as God led them. And according to Viola, this is impossible due to the structure of our pagan buildings.

[Amanah]

At this point I have to admit I'm wondering what really goes on in a home church.
Are there any OP home churches?
Are they places where people eat and drink alcohol?
Are there a bunch of kids running through the house being a pain in the neck?
Is it way more work then its worth?

I'll keep reading and commenting, but now it's time for lunch.

[Aquila]

I'd like to add the thoughts from a previous post:



Yes the church is a people, not a building with a steeple. It's also not a house.

And when the "church" (the disciples of Jesus) meet Paul tells us several things are to take place....

- Everyone being able to bring a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation.
- Gift of tongues coupled with interpretation, two or at most three.
- Two or three anointed teachers speak and guide the meeting.
- If a saint attending has a revelation or something to share, whoever is speaking must stop and give them the floor so that all might be able to prophesy, learn, and be encouraged. Meetings are to be discussion based.
- Those who address the group must realize that their spirits are subject to the anointed teachers guiding the group.
- Women (or anyone for that matter) are not to use the time for socializing.
- Those who think they are spiritual Christians should acknowledge that this order of service is a command from the Lord.

All of this is found in (I Corinthians 14:26-38).

Now... if the disciples of Jesus strictly meet in a setting that is too large to facilitate this kind of body ministry... biblical fellowship and discipleship as Paul would describe it isn't taking place. Therefore, rather the church meets occasionally in large building or not (mine does) the small group gatherings are more beneficial for a deeper and more biblical Christian walk and experience.

The house church I attend has activities and Bible movies for smaller kids. Kids are encouraged to participate with the grown ups when older. Kids are not to be regarded as a pain in the neck. They are very important. Many resources cover the importance of children in the house church movement. A great book that covers kids is, Houses That Change The World, by Wolfgang Simson. You can download a free .pdf copy if you Google it.

Please note, the idea that children are an interruption and not a blessing to the meeting is a notion the traditional church has built. "Shovel the kids off so we can play church." The truth is, kids contribute more than most know. And they learn and ask questions. Suffer not the little children. They were present when Jesus taught. Also when the Apostles would teach.

I've attended house church for almost two years now. We don't drink alcohol in the house church. In private, people live according to their convictions on the matter. We are networked and have a larger gatherings at the campus for worship and celebration.

God bless.

[Amanah]

good morning Aquila :)

[Aquila]

good morning Aquila :)

Good morning!

This is the day that the LORD has made. Let us rejoice and be glad in it!

[Amanah]

On page 81 I just read something that really struck a cord with me. If you are a shy introverted person, you can easily fall through the cracks, can easily hide in a traditional church service. You could spend 10+ years in a church and have very few close relationships.

Viola has this to say about relationship:

"No evangelist or apostle in the New Testament brought souls to Christ simply to save them from hell. Such a thought was unknown to the early Christians. The early Christians won people to the Lord to bring them into God's community, the church . . . In the words of Gilbert Bilezikian: 'Christ did not die just to save us from sins, but to bring us together into community. After coming to Christ, our next step is to be involved in community. A church that does not experience community is a parody, a sham.' "

[Dedicated Mind]

good stuff amanah. almost like a blog. but keep it here. i think tim keller has some sermons on community. i've heard that holy water came from german pagans that worshipped streams and rivers. when charlemagne became emperor, he introduced german practices empire wide.

[Amanah]

thank you DM :)

[Aquila]

good stuff amanah. almost like a blog. but keep it here. i think tim keller has some sermons on community. i've heard that holy water came from german pagans that worshipped streams and rivers. when charlemagne became emperor, he introduced german practices empire wide.

I never heard that. Very interesting brother.

[SRM]

Pagan Christianity is a book every Christian should read..including Pastors..you will be shocked to learn how much Churches today including the Apostolic are NOT like the early church at all...then again if you do not like being challenged I do not recommend it. :)

[Jay]

Having seen the way some synagogues are laid out, I would say that we are likely structured after the Jewish synagogue. This would be due to the influence that the Apostles and early church leaders, who were Jewish, had that was passed down to the modern day.

He is also sadly out of date where steeples are concerned. Most modern churches do not have a prominent steeple. Often the Catholic churches were designed like mini cathedrals and would not have had steeples either. I do not seem to know of steeples before the mid to late 1600s. This would put it too late for it too be a Catholic influence, especially as it often adorns Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Nazarene, Wesleyan, Holiness, and Pentecostal churches. Also, I believe that it could be argued that the building style was actually more Anglo/American than continental European.

[Jay]

Actually, most of what adorns a church that we call a 'steeple' is actually a spire. A steeple is actually the tower and the spire would rest on it, if we are discussing architecture of cathedrals. I was partially incorrect.

[Amanah]

I will be commenting now on Chapter 5, pages 105 thru 143, his chapter on Pastors.

Viola makes it clear that he has the utmost respect and love for Pastors. His critique is that a special clerical class/hierarchy is not in the bible. Men have always insisted on a mediator between them and God for they feared to approach God for themselves.
Clerical rule was instituted by the Catholic Church. Rome had Bishops and cardinals who were corrupt and yielded political power that had nothing to do with serving God’s people. There is no person who is divinely appointed to mediate between God and the people.

The early church had no religious offices. There was no ordination. The early church was the first lay-led movement. “Elders naturally emerged in a church through the process of time. They were not appointed to an external office. Instead they were recognized by virtue of their seniority and spiritual service to the church. “ (Viola 123-134)

Viola contends that the reformation recovered the priesthood of believers for the individual believer, but not for the church corporately. The reformation church still kept the idea of a one man rule: “Luther believed that the church is simply a gathering of people who listen to preaching.” (Viola 133)

Viola feels that the reformation church model put an unfair burden on the Pastor who is trying to do it all. “Jesus Christ never intended any person to sport all the hats a present-day pastor is expected to wear. He never intended any one person to bear such a load.” (Viola 139)

This is a subject I know very little about and I really hesitated to even comment on it. But I do think that the pressure and heart ache of being a pastor might be almost unbearable. And that a system that takes some of that pressure off a Pastor and allows them to share the weight with others, and allows them to be more human, not having to try to portray themselves as super spiritual all the time might be helpful to pastors and to the gifted lay people who can step up and share the burden.

Viola, of course, feels the answer is the home church movement where because of the small groups people are allowed to minister to each other, which would take the pressure off of one person trying to do it all. I'm not promoting his viewpoint. I'm just exploring his ideas to try to understand the viewpoint.

[Amanah]

When I was going thru chemo, sometimes I attended a local AoG church near my house because I was often too exhausted/sick from chemo to drive very far. The Pastor of that church resigned his position to do this. So the topic is interesting to me on more then one level.

http://www.housechurchnet.com/About_Us.html

ABOUT US...

The Life Connections house-church network was established on May 1, 2010, in Sebastian, Florida. I (Tom) had been the pastor of a local church for 23 years, and sensed God changing my ministry direction. My wife, Nancy, and I have a vision to see a multitude of local-area house churches established, all in a network with one common goal: To work with Jesus Christ as He builds His church just as He did in the book of Acts.

We retired from the church to pursue this vision, and want to encourage those who wish to attend or start simple churches in homes, offices, schools, coffee shops, wherever.

If you're looking for a house church in our area, we can help by putting you in contact with those we know. If you have an existing house church, you may want to be listed as part of the network. If you'd like to start a house church, we can provide contacts, ideas, and encouragement. Or maybe you just want to find out what a simple church or house church is all about.

The network provides referrals, helps arrange for area celebrations for all house churches together, and offers personal help and encouragement as needed.

In any case, we have no personal agenda, have no desire to control anything, and ask for nothing in return. We want people to experience the close fellowship, spiritual growth, and dynamic relationships we read of in the book of Acts; and in turn reach many others with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It's simple, really.

[Amanah]

Also from Tom and Nancy's website:


http://www.housechurchnet.com/What_Is.html


What is “Simple Church” or “House Church?”

First, it is NOT:
= A denomination or connected with a denomination
= A mini-version of the traditional, institutional church
= A cell group or home fellowship from a larger, community church

What it IS:
= A self-governing, stand-alone expression of the Church Jesus established; one that operates on the same principles as the church we find described in the New Testament.

= A small (10 to 20) community of people learning together how to live the Christian life, reaching out to friends, neighbors, and family with God’s love and grace.

= A place where everyone is accepted and can feel secure and significant; where every person has a chance to participate in the life of the church, and to use their spiritual gifts.

Our foundation:
Jesus Christ is the head of His church. We submit to Him and then function as He directs us through the Holy Spirit.

The Bible is our only source of truth and our only guide in matters of faith and conduct. We use other books and teachings only as they faithfully expand our understanding of Biblical truth.

The House-church pattern:
Acts 2:42-47 (New Living Translation)
42 All the believers devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching, and to fellowship, and to sharing in meals (including the Lord’s Supper[]), and to prayer.
43 A deep sense of awe came over them all, and the apostles performed many miraculous signs and wonders. 44 And all the believers met together in one place and shared everything they had.45 They sold their property and possessions and shared the money with those in need. 46 They worshiped together at the Temple each day, met in homes for the Lord’s Supper, and shared their meals with great joy and generosity-47 all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their fellowship those who were being saved.

Some house-church basics from the New Testament church example:
= There is no “senior pastor” or other “one-man” leadership as practiced in the traditional, institutional church. As in the early church, the house church functions under the unassuming leadership of elders, and every member contributes to and participates in the evangelism and disciple-making efforts of the church.

= There are no salaried staff members or formal programs. The church is the program, the members are the staff, and the family of God is the life.

= There is no desire to acquire property or buildings. Meetings are held primarily in homes, but may meet in office buildings, coffee houses, clubhouses, or wherever there is available space.

= If practical, the members share a meal at every meeting.

= We pray for one another, give to one another's needs, support ministries and missionaries, share life.

= The growth pattern is primarily multiplication, not addition. As each house church reaches 20 or so members, the goal is to start another house church in the home or chosen location of one of the members. The purpose is not to build a large congregation, but a network of many house churches.

= Each meeting should have practical Bible teaching as part of the activity. All members participate in discussion. The better we know our Father, the more effective we’ll be in serving Him and the more our lives will reflect the love of Christ.

= Occasionally all house churches in the network will come together for a celebration meeting with special speakers, music, etc. Combined fellowship demonstrates that we belong to something much larger than our individual house churches.

= Children profit from being a part of church family life. Each house church will discover how to integrate them into the church so they, too, become disciples of Jesus. At times they may be taken aside for age-appropriate teaching, games, or activities. The goal is to include them as much as possible. There’s already too much segregation of children in our culture.

Five Basic Functions of Simple Churches/House Churches:

1. PRAYER
Not only should the founding of the house church be bathed in prayer, but we should always be praying for those in need among the members and for those in our circle of influence who need to restore their relationships with God through Jesus Christ.

2. MEET
This means to meet new, unsaved people and form genuine relationships with them. Our outreach should be intentional and openly loving. The goal is to build the kingdom of God with new believers who receive Christ and become part of His church.

3. MAKE DISCIPLES
We take time to teach, train, and demonstrate what it means to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. Disciple making can begin before a person receives Christ, just as Jesus demonstrated with His own disciples.

4. GATHER TOGETHER
Meetings of the house church should be held weekly, just as they did in the New Testament, supplemented by meetings of smaller groups during the week. A meal should be served at all weekly meetings to promote the family atmosphere God desires for His church. At least some form of food should be involved. Every meeting should be spontaneous, with no set format, so God is free to respond to the needs of the members. In addition, the communion bread and wine should also be a part of every meeting to remember Jesus, just as He said.

5. MULTIPLY
The desire of house churches is not only to add members but also to expand through planting more house churches,. This must be the goal from the start, and should be be promoted regularly. It’s easy for us to get comfortable and ingrown unless we intentionally determine to multiply.

[Digging4Truth]

Amanah,

I've read the book and I need to read it again. As has been said it is a book everyone should read. I am thoroughly enjoying your commentary on the book and I hope you continue to share your thoughts with us as you progress through the book.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts with us. This is a very enjoyable thread.

[Lafon]

This book is a part of my library (first read it more than a year ago), and found it to be quite interesting.

One of the things which it prompted me to do was to take note of the roots from whence the modern OAP Church came - Trinitarian denominationism, which is to say, those whose roots began with the "Protesting Catholics" who separated themselves from the RCC - thus the term "Protestant."

Because the modern OAP Church can traces its roots to the RCC, then I suspect that its possible we continue to embrace and practice some of its "pagan" practices, albeit unwittingly.

Amanah, I appreciate your comments concerning this book. They challenge me to want to read it again.

[Pilgrum]

But Jesus called them to him and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Mat 20:25-28)

This is a portion of scripture that just does not seem to mesh with IC church structure and practice. IC churches exalt our great ones to places of authority and rule over others just as Jesus' first statement said concerning the Gentiles.

"It shall not be so among you"

[Nitehawk013]

Most "IC" or Traditional churches embrace certain sections of Replacement Theology or Supersessionsim. In this case, they claim that the modern ministry, really though...they only grant power to a Pastor, is the continuation of the OT priesthood. So just as the priesthood was a special, and in som eways elevated, class so to are the modern ministers, especially the Pastor.

Listen to them once in a while when they start to talk abotu how they arethe priesthood. Or how God "always had one man" He spoke through. I heard a preacher just a couple weeks ago preach that when Ciphas tore his gowns while accusing Jesus, it signified the end of the Levitical priesthood and the point where Christ took over the levitical priesthood. He then said that we are now the levitical priesthood because we are the heirs of CHrist and members of the royal priesthood.

Forget crazy scriptural stuff like how CHrist was not levitical at all. He was of Judah, not levi. He was afterthe order of Melchisedec, not th elevites. And we are a royal proesthood of believers, not at all related to the Levites.

Follow it all back enough, and they always try to link it to the Levites so they can establish the hierarchy (even if it is a flawed application) and the tithing mandate.

[Sabby]

So, I'm finished with Chapter 2 which can be summarized fairly well by the following quote from page 42:

"We have become victims of our past. We have been fathered by Constantine who gave us the prestigious status of owning a building. We have been blinded by the Romans and Greeks who forced upon us their hierarchically structured basilicas. We have been taken by the Goths who imposed upon us their Platonic architecture. We have been hijacked by the Egyptians and Babylonians who gave us our sacred steeples. . . The building is an architectural denial of the priesthood of all believers."

On Page 30 thru 46 Viola continues his critique with Protestant churches. He thinks that we have taken the Pagan Catholic model and changed a few things like replacing the altar table with the pulpit. We have kept the steeple, which he equates to the obelisks of Eqypt. The Pulpit and preaching is central in our contemporary churches, and he sees this as a problem because he feels that the platform, pulpit and choir server the purpose of educating, entertaining, reaching lost souls, ect, But he sees the people in the pews as non participants.

I'm having problems with the book at this point for a few reasons. Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost. If we are having revival in church, the Word is being preached, and souls are being saved, that can't be all bad right? The point of going to church is not to be non-participatory, but to bring people to church with you so they can hear the gospel and be saved.

I'm also thinking about the books that I have read about Azusa street now and wondering about the services described in those books. I've read that people met to pray and God took over the services. That people took turns bringing the message as God led them. There were testimonies, preaching, gifts in operation as the Spirit led.

Of course the central message of this book is that the early church first met in homes and that people were able to participate as God led them. And according to Viola, this is impossible due to the structure of our pagan buildings.

What you are describing sounds like something I read 30 or so years ago in a book called Mystery Babylon, written by a man by the name of Ralph Woodrow. His views (at the time) seemed nearly revolutionary.
He recent publications reflect some softening of his views.

If Viola is right then the entire protestant church must de-construct it's form, liturgy, methodology, tradition, venues and so on; only then will we become liberated from christian paganism, that is, if it is indeed pagan christianity.

But what of the good components of the way "church" is presently done? There must be some linkage of old w/the new in order to derive that which is good from it. By that I mean, if our christianity needs to dramatically change, it will not happen overnight. Any transition is hard, especially when organizational/denominational power structures and paradigms interfere. Transition is hard, and it will take patience for positive changes to occur.
Church leadership just doesn't happen like a poof of angel dust. It is intentional. So then, what mechanisms are in place for the 5 fold ministry to flourish in the type of environment Viola suggests? I can see where many more cults will develop without good leadership. Is the American church spiritual enough to rise above it?

What say you, Amanah?

[Nitehawk013]

I heard a sermon once about the five fold ministry. In it, the preacher brought out how that throughout scripture we see multiple references to elders, Apostles, etc but only one mention of Pastor. Today we only recognize Pastors and the rest do mostly nothing. The preachers stated that it appears we have our structure completely upside down today, and yet look what we have amanged to accomplish. Imagine what would happen if we got things back to the way layed out in Acts.

I think this may be the same situation. We have done well with traditional church and reached many, but imagine what would happen if we got it right and did things the way they did in Acts and the early church!

Agin, for the record, I am fine with traditional church on Sunday. I just think we should also embrace house church, cell groups, home meetings and anything else that fosters more of an intimate community or family feeling among the body. Traditional church tends to do the opposite.

[Scott Hutchinson]

There are various giftings in the body of Christ,and those who are called to oversight giftings do have great responbility,but they don't outrank other members of the body of Christ.

Most have forgotten about the ministry of the saints.
Noah is called a preacher of righteousness in the bible but I never read about him standing behind a pulpit,his life was a witness to his generation.

[Aquila]

But Jesus called them to him and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be your slave, even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Mat 20:25-28)

This is a portion of scripture that just does not seem to mesh with IC church structure and practice. IC churches exalt our great ones to places of authority and rule over others just as Jesus' first statement said concerning the Gentiles.

"It shall not be so among you"

Sadly, all too often... they become "little Popes".

[Aquila]

I heard a sermon once about the five fold ministry. In it, the preacher brought out how that throughout scripture we see multiple references to elders, Apostles, etc but only one mention of Pastor. Today we only recognize Pastors and the rest do mostly nothing. The preachers stated that it appears we have our structure completely upside down today, and yet look what we have amanged to accomplish. Imagine what would happen if we got things back to the way layed out in Acts.
I think this may be the same situation. We have done well with traditional church and reached many, but imagine what would happen if we got it right and did things the way they did in Acts and the early church!

Agin, for the record, I am fine with traditional church on Sunday. I just think we should also embrace house church, cell groups, home meetings and anything else that fosters more of an intimate community or family feeling among the body. Traditional church tends to do the opposite.

To the bolded above...

An honest question.... What have we managed to accomplish?

We have the nicest buildings and most bloated organizations and denominations ever... yet society as a whole is largely going to Hades in a hand basket. Are we "playing church" and providing a "Sunday Show" without truly "discipling" believers to REACH their world and make more disciples? We NEVER see a church in the NT seeking to establish "members". The Apostles were always seeking to reach people with the Gospel, disciple them, train them, and send them out to disciple others. In a way... if in 10 years a church see the same families on the same pew doing what they've always done, plus others doing the same that were won during that time... the church has failed. They've only pewed "tithe cows" to keep the money coming in. Sometimes a bone of "ministry" is tossed to them and they teach Sunday School or something largely controlled and quiet. Honestly... Christianity spread through Rome like wildfire because the Apostles discipled people to disciple. Win, train, send. Win, train, send. Win, train send. And they turned one of the greatest empires on earth upside down. And it started with... 120 gathered in an upper room in the South West quarter of Jerusalem. I'd say we haven't truly accomplished anything accept making our ministers the best paid ministers in all of human history.

If the Apostles had church like we do... Christianity wouldn't have lasted a single generation.

[Aquila]

There are various giftings in the body of Christ,and those who are called to oversight giftings do have great responbility,but they don't outrank other members of the body of Christ.

Most have forgotten about the ministry of the saints.
Noah is called a preacher of righteousness in the bible but I never read about him standing behind a pulpit,his life was a witness to his generation.

Most of the prophets preached in the gates... the establishment couldn't stand them. They were... trouble makers. hehehe

[Amanah]

What you are describing sounds like something I read 30 or so years ago in a book called Mystery Babylon, written by a man by the name of Ralph Woodrow. His views (at the time) seemed nearly revolutionary.
He recent publications reflect some softening of his views.

If Viola is right then the entire protestant church must de-construct it's form, liturgy, methodology, tradition, venues and so on; only then will we become liberated from christian paganism, that is, if it is indeed pagan christianity.

But what of the good components of the way "church" is presently done? There must be some linkage of old w/the new in order to derive that which is good from it. By that I mean, if our christianity needs to dramatically change, it will not happen overnight. Any transition is hard, especially when organizational/denominational power structures and paradigms interfere. Transition is hard, and it will take patience for positive changes to occur.
Church leadership just doesn't happen like a poof of angel dust. It is intentional. So then, what mechanisms are in place for the 5 fold ministry to flourish in the type of environment Viola suggests? I can see where many more cults will develop without good leadership. Is the American church spiritual enough to rise above it?

What say you, Amanah?

I think the church is changing and adjusting.
The Pastors on this forum are the proof of it.
Younger Pastors are less authoritarian.
They see the fallout of the mistakes of their Fathers.
There is a movement towards including home church meetings,
there is a softening in the approach of preaching.
And a movement away from preaching unbiblical standards.

Viola vehemently opposes an attack on the precious men and women of God who are Pastoring our churches and doing the best they know how with what was handed to them when they began. When I get home I'm going to find the statement that he made to that effect and post it.

It's not a light thing to transform the way you minister. It's done very cautiously so as to preserve like precious faith.

And it's easy to critique, but let's give credit for the prayers and fasting and hours of blood sweat and tears that have been poured out by concerned precious men and women who are doing their dead level best to lead the Church. I have made it a point to tread very softly in my review of this book out of love and concern for those who are giving their life for the gospel.

The countless men and women who will have received the Spirit and been baptised in the Name will rise up and call many on this forum blessed for their work and service to the Lord.

And if this post turns into a bash fest then I will request that it be locked.

[Amanah]

"At this moment, all the rebellious hearts are applauding and are plotting to wield the above paragraphs to wreak havoc in their churches. If that is you dear rebellious heart, you have missed our point by a considerable distance. We do not stand with you. Our advice: Either leave your church quietly, refusing to cause division, or be at peace with it. There is a vast gulf between rebellion and taking a stand for what is true" (Viola 5)

[Dedicated Mind]

no one book is going to change christianity. all denominations will continue their traditions with modest evolution but nothing more. there is nothing new under the sun. all fads will eventually fade and what will remain is what we presently have. can anyone describe any recent major changes? i don't think the house church movement is significant unless there is major political change like communism.

[BrotherEastman]

Very interesting thread. Thank you Amanah. That being said, I think church buildings are here to stay and that God is not surprised by them. They've been around for people to meet for 2 millennial years. Some are involved in community and some are not, but I find God in places where Christians meet whether at a house or a church building. JMHO.

[Amanah]

I think it is another option for people to choose from. And it is probably a good way for someone who is feeling frustrated in wanting to do more in the way of ministry to find an outlet for increased participation.

I'm going to finish reading the book and may or may not make further comments on it on the forum.

Thanks everyone for your comments.

[Michael The Disciple]

Home fellowship/Churches are great. They are not the answer to all things. If a Church teaches false doctrine it would not be a good Church just because it meets in the home. Same with Plurality of Eldership. I think it is Biblical but I would prefer a one Pastor/Elder Church that taught truth over a plurality of Elders who were teaching error.

[Aquila]

I think the church is changing and adjusting.
The Pastors on this forum are the proof of it.
Younger Pastors are less authoritarian.
They see the fallout of the mistakes of their Fathers.
There is a movement towards including home church meetings,
there is a softening in the approach of preaching.
And a movement away from preaching unbiblical standards.

Viola vehemently opposes an attack on the precious men and women of God who are Pastoring our churches and doing the best they know how with what was handed to them when they began. When I get home I'm going to find the statement that he made to that effect and post it.

It's not a light thing to transform the way you minister. It's done very cautiously so as to preserve like precious faith.

And it's easy to critique, but let's give credit for the prayers and fasting and hours of blood sweat and tears that have been poured out by concerned precious men and women who are doing their dead level best to lead the Church. I have made it a point to tread very softly in my review of this book out of love and concern for those who are giving their life for the gospel.

The countless men and women who will have received the Spirit and been baptised in the Name will rise up and call many on this forum blessed for their work and service to the Lord.

And if this post turns into a bash fest then I will request that it be locked.

:thumbsup

[Aquila]

"At this moment, all the rebellious hearts are applauding and are plotting to wield the above paragraphs to wreak havoc in their churches. If that is you dear rebellious heart, you have missed our point by a considerable distance. We do not stand with you. Our advice: Either leave your church quietly, refusing to cause division, or be at peace with it. There is a vast gulf between rebellion and taking a stand for what is true" (Viola 5)

:thumbsup

[Digging4Truth]

Home fellowship/Churches are great. They are not the answer to all things. If a Church teaches false doctrine it would not be a good Church just because it meets in the home. Same with Plurality of Eldership. I think it is Biblical but I would prefer a one Pastor/Elder Church that taught truth over a plurality of Elders who were teaching error.

Well that's sort of a given right?

Anyone would desire a church that balances on a fence and teaches truth than a church that sits in a pavilion and teaches error.

We should also remember that the vast majority of "steepled" churches preach error. So error or truth isn't, by any stretch of the imagination, a modern version versus house church version issue. That is as prevalent in any model as it is in another.

[Sabby]

"At this moment, all the rebellious hearts are applauding and are plotting to wield the above paragraphs to wreak havoc in their churches. If that is you dear rebellious heart, you have missed our point by a considerable distance. We do not stand with you. Our advice: Either leave your church quietly, refusing to cause division, or be at peace with it. There is a vast gulf between rebellion and taking a stand for what is true" (Viola 5)

Viola give Excellent advice (Either leave your church quietly, refusing to cause division, or be at peace with it) for those with issues with doing church.
I agree with others that believe it will take some time for change and that church “buildings” will always be with us. It depends upon the ministry, the ability to think “out of the box” and an intentional willingness to find God even in the “small” things, like home church.
About 4 years ago I had a conversation with a denominational brother, a Christian school instructor my age with a doctorate degree from Dallas Theological Seminary . I was giving him a ride to a school basketball game and we were talking about the ministry. He knew I was a pastor and asked where we were having church. When I replied, "Home Church", he looked at me quizzically and asked, “Don’t you feel that weakens the church?” My answer was, “Brother, if anything, it strengthens the church”. He didn’t agree, but that’s alright. If this verse is a little out of context forgive me, but in a way it applies,

Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. Romans 14:4

One form of methodology is not greater than another, as long as we are building the kingdom of God, as Jesus said,

Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.
And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,
And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.
And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us. Luke 9:46-50


To your post, Amanah: having the right attitude and spirit is so important!

[Amanah]

Thank you for your post Sabby :)

[Scott Hutchinson]

If one wants to listen to house church services check this out.
http://www.ubm1.org/?page=ubmradio

[Scott Hutchinson]

http://www.ubm1.org/?page=newtoubm

[Scott Hutchinson]

http://abidinghouse.com/video.html

[Amanah]

I've thought of finishing the book, then attending a meeting and reporting back.
But I may not be that ambitious.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I don't attend a house church currently,but I'm not opposed to it,and I may attend one somewhere down the road.

[Michael The Disciple]

If one wants to listen to house church services check this out.
http://www.ubm1.org/?page=ubmradio

I started listening to UBM about 3 years ago. David Eels teaches more truth than many. He teaches post trib rapture, the head covering, and Biblical perfection. A very strong faith message. Unfortunately he left Oneness years ago.

The way I understand it he is now meeting with a group that has come to him from different states in a Church building around Sweetwater Tennessee. I plan to visit one day. We hear him on Paltalk.com

[Scott Hutchinson]

I don't agree with everything on UBM,but I do agree with them on alot of things.
I get a great out of their messages.

[AreYouReady?]

Viola contends that the reformation recovered the priesthood of believers for the individual believer, but not for the church corporately. The reformation church still kept the idea of a one man rule: “Luther believed that the church is simply a gathering of people who listen to preaching.” (Viola 133)

Viola feels that the reformation church model put an unfair burden on the Pastor who is trying to do it all. “Jesus Christ never intended any person to sport all the hats a present-day pastor is expected to wear. He never intended any one person to bear such a load.” (Viola 139)

This is a subject I know very little about and I really hesitated to even comment on it. But I do think that the pressure and heart ache of being a pastor might be almost unbearable. And that a system that takes some of that pressure off a Pastor and allows them to share the weight with others, and allows them to be more human, not having to try to portray themselves as super spiritual all the time might be helpful to pastors and to the gifted lay people who can step up and share the burden.


This brought to mind the man ... Moses. I know it is OT, but the OT was given to us for example, lessons that we could learn from.

Exodus 18

12And Jethro, Moses' father in law, took a burnt offering and sacrifices for God: and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel, to eat bread with Moses' father in law before God.

13And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening.

14And when Moses' father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?

15And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to enquire of God:

16When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and his laws.

17And Moses' father in law said unto him, The thing that thou doest is not good.

18Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too heavy for thee; thou art not able to perform it thyself alone.

19Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God:

20And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.

21Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:

22And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee.

23If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace.

24So Moses hearkened to the voice of his father in law, and did all that he had said.

25And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people, rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens.

26And they judged the people at all seasons: the hard causes they brought unto Moses, but every small matter they judged themselves.

I did not read any verse where God was displeased with what Moses did. Thus God allowed Moses to appoint able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness to rule over the people.

While I know nothing about how these mega-churces have in order their governorship, I would think it would be too much for one pastor to deal with considering the many problems society has to endure today.

The early NT Church seen thousands receive the Holy Ghost after Pentecost. When they all tried to live commonly and disputes arose, the Apostles seemed to have taken this same approach.

Acts 6

1And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.

2Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.

3Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.

4But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.

5And the saying pleased the whole multitude: and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolas a proselyte of Antioch:

6Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.

7And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

8And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

[Amanah]

Viola, Frank
Pagan Christianity? : exploring the roots of our church practices /Frank Viola and George Barna. Tyndale, 2002, 2008

This Post will review Chapter 8 of Viola’s book: Tithing and Clergy Salaries

Viola says that tithes were part of Israel’s taxation system, which consisted of produce that was used to support the Levites, orphans, strangers and widows. But tithing was done away with when the law was done away with.

New Testament financial stewardship for Christians includes giving cheerfully according to your ability to help the “poor, orphans, widows, sick, prisoners, and strangers” (Viola 174)

Viola feels that Malachi in 3:8-10 The widows, fatherless, and strangers were the rightful recipients of the tithe.

The history of the Christian tithe as an institution “was based on a fusion of Old Testament practice and a common system of land-leasing in medieval Europe.” From reading history, I remember that the excesses of the Catholic Church caused such heart wrenching poverty among the people that it contributed heavily to the French Revolution. The Church was part of the aristocracy at that time.

Viola is saying that it’s a poor use of finances to have people collecting tithes to live in mansions, build stadiums that rival the cathedrals of Rome and jet set around the country, while there are poor and impoverished people living in their same city.

Made me think of when it was found that Jim Baker had his dogs living in air conditioned splendor, while people went hungry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_them_eat_cake


"Let them eat cake" is the traditional translation to English of the French phrase "Qu'ils mangent de la brioche", supposedly spoken by "a great princess" upon learning that the peasants had no bread. Since brioche was enriched, as opposed to normal bread, the quote supposedly would reflect the princess's obliviousness to the condition of the people.

While they are commonly attributed to Queen Marie Antoinette,[1] there is no record of these words ever having been uttered by her. They appear in Jean-Jacques Rousseau's Confessions, his autobiography (whose first six books were written in 1765, when Marie Antoinette was nine years of age, and published in 1782). The context of Rousseau's account was his desire for bread, to accompany some wine he had stolen; however, in feeling he was too elegantly dressed to go into an ordinary bakery, he thus recollected the words of a "great princess".[2] As he wrote in Book 6:


Enfin je me rappelai le pis-aller d’une grande princesse à qui l’on disait que les paysans n’avaient pas de pain, et qui répondit : Qu’ils mangent de la brioche.[3]


Finally I recalled the stopgap solution of a great princess who was told that the peasants had no bread, and who responded: "Let them eat brioche."

So he goes to a fancy pastry shop where only enriched pastries like brioche were sold. Rousseau does not name the "great princess" and he may have invented the anecdote, seeing as Confessions was, on the whole, a very inaccurate autobiography: "The 'facts' he so frankly admits often emerge, in the light of modern scholarship, to be inaccurate, distorted or non-existent";[4] and his work is the oldest source for the saying.

In Chinese culture, there is (attributed to Emperor Hui of Jin by the book Zizhi Tongjian) a similar story that involves rice and meat, instead of bread and cake: "an ancient Chinese emperor who, being told that his subjects didn't have enough rice to eat, replied, 'Why don't they eat meat?'".[5]

[Amanah]

Viola, Frank
Pagan Christianity? : exploring the roots of our church practices /Frank Viola and George Barna. Tyndale, 2002, 2008
This Post will review Chapter 9 of Viola’s book: Baptism and the Lord’s Supper

I found this chapter on baptism very interestingly worded. He almost says baptism is linked to salvation. He makes the point that there is no “Sinner’s prayer” in the scripture, people came to Christ by being buried in baptism.

“In the first century, water baptism was the outward confession of a person’s faith. But more than that, it was the way someone came to the Lord. For this reason, the confession of baptism is vitally linked to the exercise of saving faith. So much so that the New Testament writers often use baptism in place of the word faith and linked it to being saved. This is because baptism was the early Christian’s initial confession of faith in Christ.” (Viola 188 - 189)

Viola feels that the Lord’s Supper is supposed to be a festive communal meal, not an observed Clerical rite under the control of the Clerical Class. The Catholic Church changed this simple communal meal when they introduced the doctrine of transubstantiation. They believed that when the priest spoke the word Eucharist, the bread became the actual body of Christ to be sacrificed on the altar again. Yuck, it was a pagan sacrifice ritual.

After reading this book, I will never see some things the same again. Till this day we have people practicing pagan rituals in their cathedrals, with Pomp and ceremony and incense, believing that they are sacrificing and partaking of the actual body of Jesus again and again. How perverse, how disgusting.

How can we want to return to that? Those of us who are returning to liturgical practices.

[Jay]

I am going to post a few things now, and I may get bit.

1) I do not believe the that the tithe was ever meant to pass from practice. You see some sort of remnant of it in the writings of Paul when he discussed giving to the ministry. I do believe that tithing is in accordance to Scripture, but that will be for another post.

2) KH, BH, KC, JM, and others are not rich off of tithes, although some make that claim. They became wealthy through the 'word of faith' or 'name it/claim it' practices, where if you gave to their ministry, God would richly bless you. Many people gave offerings (not tithes) to these men.

3) I must agree with his statement about baptism in this section (having never read or heard of the book, I must go by this section). The Bible is very clear on this topic, and it is ignored or denied at eternal peril. The Bible states "Those who believe and are baptized shall be saved." Peter preached to the crowd at Pentecost and accused them of shedding innocent blood, as well as killing their Messiah. The audience knew that they Law demanded the death penalty for these crimes and others for which they now stood convicted. Their question is the same as the one asked in Acts 16, "What shall we do?" The last three words are meant to be understood, "What shall we do to be saved? For we are not under the judgment of the Law, and the only thing that is left for us is the death penalty." Then Peter says, "Repent and be baptized, everyone of you, for the remission of your sins."

I apologize for the lengthy post, but I felt it good to take a moment to comment.

[Amanah]

Jay your comments are always welcome, and don't worry about being bit, in fact, if you are right, then you can bite back if bitten

[Jay]

:spit:highfive

Thank you so much. I will try not to invoke that on this thread.

:heeheehee:thumbsup

[Nitehawk013]

What remnant of tithing existed in Paul's writings? Teh man said he worked himself so that he wouldn't have to take any money form the churches. He appeals to them to give freewill offerings for the needs of the church.

Paul is the anti-tithe. How does one find any remnant or trace of tithing in his epistles?

[Amanah]

What remnant of tithing existed in Paul's writings? Teh man said he worked himself so that he wouldn't have to take any money form the churches. He appeals to them to give freewill offerings for the needs of the church.

Paul is the anti-tithe. How does one find any remnant or trace of tithing in his epistles?

true

[Nitehawk013]

If tithing were meant for the NT, Paul would be the most logical man to lead the charge! He founded multiple churches, and then wrote the Epistles to explain to them how to continue living for God, yet never mentions one word about paying tithes. These churches were NOT all jews who had recieved the revelation of CHrist as Messiah. They were gentiles. Gentiles, who in most cases, would have been unfamiliar with the idea of giving a tithe. They were the ones most in need of being taught the "doctrine" and yet Paul says nothing to them about it.

Tithing is fear based financing. It is basically admitting you don't have any faith in your own saints to give enough to support the needs of the church. So when faith doesn't work...you switch to fear to basically engage in theocratic extortion: give me your money or you'll go to hell!

[TGBTG]

What remnant of tithing existed in Paul's writings? Teh man said he worked himself so that he wouldn't have to take any money form the churches. He appeals to them to give freewill offerings for the needs of the church.

Paul is the anti-tithe. How does one find any remnant or trace of tithing in his epistles?

1 Cor 9
13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.

Perhaps,verse 13 - 14 is where tithe proponents see traces of the tithe teaching.

But we can also see in verse 15, Paul decided NOT to use the church's givings for his welfare, unlike the levites in the OT who had no choice but to live off of the people's givings. So even if Paul is teaching a tithe, the principles of the OT sure did NOT apply to Paul.

We see the same scenario again in 2 Thess 3:

2 Thess 3

6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

Paul was telling the Thessalonians that he would rather work with his hands than live off of them. Not because he did not have the power to, but he chose not to.

Now, we know that in the OT, the levites could NOT choose not to live off of tithes. This in itself shows that the principle by which ministers of the gospel are to live off of the gospel is SURELY not the same principle of the levites living off of tithes.

My take in it all though, is we as Christians have to have a giving attitude. The whole gospel is based on God giving us his Son.

So if we have a cheerful attitude towards giving, we would not be hung up on whether we tithe or not, as long as we learn to give cheerfully.

For the pastors who teach "tithe or hell", there sure ain't no scripture for that one...lol

[Aquila]

I firmly believe in grace giving and financial vows. I encourage a vow to pay 10% (a tithe) between the individual and God... but if they don't have the faith for it, I'd never demand it. I'll ask that they give cheerfully as they have purposed in their hearts. The principle of sowing and reaping does come into play. They that sow sparingly will reap sparingly. Those who sow bountifully will reap bountifully. Giving should be a sacrificial act of faith. This means that for many giving more than 10% should be encouraged.

It should be remembered that a vow to pay any amount over a period of time (a pledge before God) is just as binding as any tithe teaching. The difference is that the offering (percentage or amount) originates from the believers themselves as they are convicted by God in their own heart.

Deuteronomy 23:21
"If you make a vow to the LORD your God, you shall not delay fulfilling it, for the LORD your God will surely require it of you, and you will be guilty of sin.

God expects that we not neglect to pay our vows (pledges). To delay in doing so or to neglect our vow is sin.

Also, there is a divine promise to those who pay their vows:

Psalm 50:14-15
English Standard Version (ESV)
14 Offer to God a sacrifice of thanksgiving,
and perform your vows to the Most High,
15and call upon me in the day of trouble;
I will deliver you, and you shall glorify me."

If one is faithful to their vow, God promises to deliver in the day of trouble.

[Amanah]

I firmly believe in grace giving and financial vows. I encourage a vow to pay 10% (a tithe) between the individual and God... but if they don't have the faith for it, I'd never demand it. I'll ask that they give cheerfully as they have purposed in their hearts. The principle of sowing and reaping does come into play. They that sow sparingly will reap sparingly. Those who sow bountifully will reap bountifully. Giving should be a sacrificial act of faith. This means that for many giving more than 10% should be encouraged.

It should be remembered that a vow to pay any amount over a period of time (a pledge before God) is just as binding as any tithe teaching. The difference is that the rule originates from the believer themselves as they are convicted by God in their own heart.

Deuteronomy 23:21
"If you make a vow to the LORD your God, you shall not delay fulfilling it, for the LORD your God will surely require it of you, and you will be guilty of sin.

God expects that we not neglect to pay our vows (pledges). To delay in doing so or to neglect our vow is sin.

how would this play out in a house church?

[Aquila]

how would this play out in a house church?

There are many many ways to do this. Most house church elders are not paid elders. The Apostle (Senior Pastor) of the network might choose to collect offerings at the larger gatherings. That's how ours works. And our Senior Pastor doesn't believe in tithing either (and we have a massive facility on the edge of Centerville and Kettering Ohio.

Some house church elders who are not in a network with a Senior Pastor simply take the collection towards their ministry (supplimenting their income) and put a percentage in a benevolence account.

One of my favorite models is "giver to getter giving". In independent house churches members are admonished to set aside a vowed amount to give to those in need that they encounter throughout the week. For example, I might vow $20 dollars a week and set it aside. I keep that money set aside for the sole purpose of blessing another. If I see a woman with four kids in a grociery store buying groceries, I might take that money and buy her groceries with it. Or if I see a family in a restaurant I might pick up their check. The idea is to bless another and witness to Christ's goodness in your life and encourage that they too trust in Him.

You'll find MANY opinions and methods on this throughout the house church movement. Some are just as adamant about tithing (especially affiliated with DAWN Ministries) as traditional churches are. Those house church elders suppliment their income through the tithes and offerings.

The virtue of these methods is that they are voluntary in most cases and the funds typically go directly to the minister and those in need. The cost of a building, staff, etc. doesn't drain from the amount given in smaller house church networks.

Most house church networks see no issue with voluntary giving in whatever model is accepted by the local bodies. They have faith that God will provide for his work through others giving cheerfully and without compulsion. If you think about it the largest charities in America function the same way. For example, the United Way doesn't require a 10% donation to sustain it's efforts and assistance to those charities affiliated with it's program.

Be of good courage and have faith! There is a JOY in seeing God provide for His work through pure generocity and loving desire to give among the saints. Far more joy than paying the bills with money REQUIRED of the congregation.

[Aquila]

Another principle in grace giving is the "every man" principle...

1 Corinthians 16:2
King James Version (KJV)
2Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Notice "every member" was to lay something aside as an offering to God to assist the work of God (in this case relieving the saints in Jerusalem).

So everyone is encouraged to pray and give something or make a vow (pledge) to give a certain percentage or amount over a period of time (typically yearly or quarterly) to the work of God. The amount or percentage is between the individual and God.

It's free will giving in accordance to one's faith and desire to demonstrate love towards the things of God. And yes BLESSINGS do come because the spirit behind the giving is right (joy, love, and cheerfulness). Those who sow bountifully... reap bountifully! Praise God!

God will richly bless a man who only voluntarily gives $20 dollars out of loving and cheerful heart over a man who is required to give 10% of everything and is fearful and perhaps giving grudgingly because he was told he's robbing God if he doesn't.

It's the spirit and motivation behind the giving that gets God's attention... not the percentage or the amount. When a "tither" expresses stress an anxiety about their giving I admonish them to stop "tithing" and seek God for an amount to give that resonates in their spirit. I tell them that when they begin giving that amount (even if it's less than 10%) they will see the grace and blessings of God begin to flow. And guess what... I've seen it happen. Grace giving can unlock the windows of Heaven. It's not long until they are wanting to give far more time and resources than when they tithed with joy, expectancy, and praise.

[Amanah]

thank you for your input Aquila, awesome posts imo

[Pilgrum]

So what did you think of chapter four, "the sacred cow: The Sermon?"

[Amanah]

So what did you think of chapter four, "the sacred cow: The Sermon?"

you noticed that I skipped that one . . .

"The sermon was conceived in the womb of Greek rhetoric. It was born into the Christian community when pagans-turned-Christians began to bring their oratorical sytles of speaking into the church." (Viola 101)

Viola feels that preaching is to be done in the marketplace, but dialogue should be part of church meetings.

-----------------------

I've personally heard some great annointed, life changing preaching. I've seen preaching followed by an unbelievable Spirit of conviction where there was no altar call but a wave of the Holy Ghost moved thru the congregation and people ran, not walked to the altar and were filled with the Holy Ghost.

I've seen a church so on fire for God that the prayer rooms were packed to the brim with people praying and fasting and seeking the face of God.

I've walked from the prayer room with tears streaming down my face and the annointing on the church so heavy that everyone knew that God was in that place.

I've felt confimation in my soul that the man of God had a message and was speaking what God had given him.

Just thinking about it is stirring my soul to want to seek the face of God

Hosea 10:12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

Jeremiah 9:1 Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people!

[Aquila]

you noticed that I skipped that one . . .

"The sermon was conceived in the womb of Greek rhetoric. It was born into the Christian community when pagans-turned-Christians began to bring their oratorical sytles of speaking into the church." (Viola 101)

Viola feels that preaching is to be done in the marketplace, but dialogue should be part of church meetings.

-----------------------

I've personally heard some great annointed, life changing preaching. I've seen preaching followed by an unbelievable Spirit of conviction where there was no altar call but a wave of the Holy Ghost moved thru the congregation and people ran, not walked to the altar and were filled with the Holy Ghost.

I've seen a church so on fire for God that the prayer rooms were packed to the brim with people praying and fasting and seeking the face of God.

I've walked from the prayer room with tears streaming down my face and the annointing on the church so heavy that everyone knew that God was in that place.

I've felt confimation in my soul that the man of God had a message and was speaking what God had given him.

Just thinking about it is stirring my soul to want to seek the face of God

Hosea 10:12 Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you.

Jeremiah 9:1 Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people!

God often moves in spite of our errors and misunderstandings. God often moves in any setting when faith arises among His people. God once moved in a powerful way with Bro. Jeff Arnold's preaching, and Bro. Arnold was preaching from the label on a pill bottle.

Biblically, did those services serve the entire purpose of our meetings in accordance to I Corinthians 14? It could be said that, as wonderful as they were, they didn't.

[Amanah]

God often moves in spite of our errors and misunderstandings. God often moves in any setting when faith arises among His people. God once moved in a powerful way with Bro. Jeff Arnold's preaching, and Bro. Arnold was preaching from the label on a pill bottle.

Biblically, did those services serve the entire purpose of our meetings in accordance to I Corinthians 14? It could be said that, as wonderful as they were, they didn't.

I think if people were being convicted of sin and filled with the Spirit that there could not be any greater purpose then that.
There is nothing greater then God filling people with the Holy Ghost.

[Aquila]

I think if people were being convicted of sin and filled with the Spirit that there could not be any greater purpose then that.
There is nothing greater then God filling people with the Holy Ghost.

It seems like everyone forgets that in I Corinthians 14:26-40 Paul states that when we gather everyone has something to contribute. Everyone should be able to prophesy for mutual edification. This rules out the one man show preaching event. Paul goes on to say that if anyone thinks they are spiritual they must acknowledge that these things are a commandment from the Lord. It's not the will of God for one man to prophesy throughout the entire gathering. It's out of divine order.

Gathering is for mutual edification, not merely evangelism. If an unbeliever attends (most were won before attending a gathering, they become convicted as they realize God is at work in all of us (I Corinthians 14:24-25).

[Amanah]

It seems like everyone forgets that in I Corinthians 14:26-40 Paul states that when we gather everyone has something to contribute. Everyone should be able to prophesy for mutual edification. This rules out the one man show preaching event. Paul goes on to say that if anyone thinks they are spiritual they must acknowledge that these things are a commandment from the Lord. It's not the will of God for one man to prophesy throughout the entire gathering. It's out of divine order.

Gathering is for mutual edification, not merely evangelism. If an unbeliever attends (most were won before attending a gathering, they become convicted as they realize God is at work in all of us (I Corinthians 14:24-25).

ok, most churches now have weekly services and also home meetings. The home meetings are for the mutual edification of the Church. The Sunday morning service would typically be the time you would invite people to be filled with the HG and baptized in the Name.

I don't see why you can't have both aspects.

[Aquila]

ok, most churches now have weekly services and also home meetings. The home meetings are for the mutual edification of the Church. The Sunday morning service would typically be the time you would invite people to be filled with the HG and baptized in the Name.

I don't see why you can't have both aspects.

That's my point, we can have both. My church is a network of house churches. On Sunday mornings at 11:30 AM we have a "gathering" at our sanctuary. During the week we attend our house churches. Now... please note... we believe that if one isn't a member of a house church they are not plugged into the body. We don't favor the idea of only coming to the Sunday gathering. The Christian life is about Christian fellowship, edification, and community. That can't be fully experienced on a pew.

But more importantly... the Bible commands that we have the smaller gatherings where all can prophesy. The Bible doesn't command that we have the massive larger gatherings. Here's an introductory video from my church that explains the house church side of our fellowship:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLSkWrypu3Y

Here's a video that shows what our sanctuary looks like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shiqgpVW2fg&feature=related
(Please forgive the silliness... our Senior Pastor likes to have fun. lol)

[Amanah]

thank you Aquila, I can't look at those at work, will have to wait till I get home

[Amanah]

Viola, Frank
Pagan Christianity? : exploring the roots of our church practices /Frank Viola and George Barna. Tyndale, 2002, 2008

Summary of Chapter 11

Viola contends that we cherry pick verses of scripture to support the view of the church we attend versus reading the Bible for what it says.
He suggests that reading the epistles in their chronological order also makes a difference in our understanding. (Viola 228)
The proper chronological order would be:
Galatians
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Romans
Colossians
Philemon
Ephesians
Philippians
1 Timothy
Titus
2 Timothy

Viola thinks that the epistles were written to specific churches to address specific problems those churches were having and when we read them it is as if we are listening to one side of a phone conversation, we have to attempt to understand the culture of the recipient church and the possible problems the epistle was intended to address.

[Amanah]

Viola, Frank
Pagan Christianity? : exploring the roots of our church practices /Frank Viola and George Barna. Tyndale, 2002, 2008

Summary of Chapter 11

Viola says that grabbing a few people, opening your house and attempting to have a bible study with them is not really what he is proposing

"Is "organic church" a synonym for “house church”? if not, what is the distinction?
No, it is not a synonym. Some house churches are organic, while others are not. A number of present day house churches are glorified Bible studies. Many others are supper –fests . . . Some house churches are just as institutionalized as traditional churches – with a living room pulpit and chairs arranged in rows so attendees can listen to a forty five minute sermon.
Organic church life is a grassroots experience that is marked by face-to-face community, every-member functioning, open-participatory meetings, nonhierarchical leadership, and the centrality and supremacy of Jesus Christ as the functional leader and head of the group. Put another way, organic church life is the “experience” of the Body of Christ. In its purest form, it is the fellowship of . . . God brought to earth and experienced by human beings.” (Viola 240 - 241)

[Aquila]

Viola, Frank
Pagan Christianity? : exploring the roots of our church practices /Frank Viola and George Barna. Tyndale, 2002, 2008

Summary of Chapter 11

Viola says that grabbing a few people, opening your house and attempting to have a bible study with them is not really what he is proposing

"Is "organic church" a synonym for “house church”? if not, what is the distinction?
No, it is not a synonym. Some house churches are organic, while others are not. A number of present day house churches are glorified Bible studies. Many others are supper –fests . . . Some house churches are just as institutionalized as traditional churches – with a living room pulpit and chairs arranged in rows so attendees can listen to a forty five minute sermon.
Organic church life is a grassroots experience that is marked by face-to-face community, every-member functioning, open-participatory meetings, nonhierarchical leadership, and the centrality and supremacy of Jesus Christ as the functional leader and head of the group. Put another way, organic church life is the “experience” of the Body of Christ. In its purest form, it is the fellowship of . . . God brought to earth and experienced by human beings.” (Viola 240 - 241)

Amen. Having experienced this for a year or so, I can say that there is nothing like it. While I love larger gatherings, organic house church is where I'm spiritually nourished and edified the most. I can't imagine the Christian life without it.

[Amanah]

Amen. Having experienced this for a year or so, I can say that there is nothing like it. While I love larger gatherings, organic house church is where I'm spiritually nourished and edified the most. I can't imagine the Christian life without it.

I'd be up for exploring it, my Sister doesn't want to though and whatever we do, we are going to do together. She thinks it sounds like too much work and commitment. She envisions taking turns having the meeting in each other's homes and having to cook. It would be like having company all the time.

between full time jobs, taking care of our homes, and training for a marathon, we are busy.

We also want to attend a church that believes in the Oneness of God, Baptizes in Jesus Name, and doesn't enforce any non biblical standards, no, I'm not running a marathon in a dress, sorry.

[Aquila]

I'd be up for exploring it, my Sister doesn't want to though and whatever we do, we are going to do together. She thinks it sounds like too much work and commitment. She envisions taking turns having the meeting in each other's homes and having to cook. It would be like having company all the time.

between full time jobs, taking care of our homes, and training for a marathon, we are busy.

We also want to attend a church that believes in the Oneness of God, Baptizes in Jesus Name, and doesn't enforce any non biblical standards, no, I'm not running a marathon in a dress, sorry.

I understand.

But I'd like to propose something. Does your sister think this way because the traditional church has influenced her to think of church like a formal association instead of a "family"? After all... we are to address elders as "fathers", older sisters as "mothers", and one another as "brother" and "sister". The church should be a simple meeting that is more akin to family getting together than a formal "meeting" of sorts. When you're family, you walk in without knocking. When you're family you share food and resources joyfully. Ah... the mindset behind organic churching and traditional church are worlds apart. She's illustrating a fundamental problem with regards to how the institutional church can teach one to think wrongly regarding the body of Christ.

You don't have to host a meeting to go to one and see what it's like. And when you first start visiting a house church... no one expects you to bring anything. There's really no reason why one couldn't go to see how that specific house church does things. Maybe after a couple months you or your sister could choose to bring a covered dish or some soda to contribute. You have nothing to worry about.

[Amanah]

Viola, Frank
Pagan Christianity? : exploring the roots of our church practices /Frank Viola and George Barna. Tyndale, 2002, 2008

My conclusions:

I do think that the House church model most closely represents early Christianity.
Jesus lived with his disciples in community, teaching them with hands on training.

I don't think Jesus would approve of the hierarchy and organizational structures that we have created that elevate men to be god’s over the Lord’s people.

The early church functioned as a family, they met and prayed and broke bread with each other from house to house. The early church lived in community and met each other’s needs as if they were family members.

It is apparent that many of our church practices originated as the RCC laid a Christian veneer on pagan rituals and Greek philosophy and rhetoric.

However, I believe that the Church was born in prayer in an upper room on the day of Pentecost. And for any movement to truly be a replication of the early church it would also have to respond the way the early Church responded when Peter told them to repent, be baptized in Jesus’ name for the remission of their sins, and you will receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

[Amanah]

I enjoyed doing this, and want to thank all who read/responded.

I think I will find another book to read and will do this again.

But I will post the thread as a Blog, as someone pointed out that would be more appropriate.

Again, thanks for letting me have the fun of exploring this topic with you.

[Aquila]

Viola, Frank
Pagan Christianity? : exploring the roots of our church practices /Frank Viola and George Barna. Tyndale, 2002, 2008

My conclusions:

I do think that the House church model most closely represents early Christianity.
Jesus lived with his disciples in community, teaching them with hands on training.

I don't think Jesus would approve of the hierarchy and organizational structures that we have created that elevate men to be god’s over the Lord’s people.

The early church functioned as a family, they met and prayed and broke bread with each other from house to house. The early church lived in community and met each other’s needs as if they were family members.

It is apparent that many of our church practices originated as the RCC laid a Christian veneer on pagan rituals and Greek philosophy and rhetoric.

However, I believe that the Church was born in prayer in an upper room on the day of Pentecost. And for any movement to truly be a replication of the early church it would also have to respond the way the early Church responded when Peter told them to repent, be baptized in Jesus’ name for the remission of their sins, and you will receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

Amen. I'd see nothing wrong with that. I really enjoyed this blog too. Another great book to read by Barna would be, Revolution. It's very good.

[AreYouReady?]

That was a pretty good synopsis of that book. Looking forward to your next blog. :highfive

[AreYouReady?]

Well...that was such a good synopsis that I went and bought the book for my own reading. :)

[citizen]

I read that book a little over a year ago and enjoyed it.
House churches have always been apart of the Church's 'DNA'. I kinda like that idea - but there's enough room to have both types of churches within the Body.

[Aquila]

I read that book a little over a year ago and enjoyed it.
House churches have always been apart of the Church's 'DNA'. I kinda like that idea - but there's enough room to have both types of churches within the Body.

:thumbsup

[bbyrd009]

Viola, Frank
Pagan Christianity? : exploring the roots of our church practices /Frank Viola and George Barna. Tyndale, 2002, 2008

My conclusions:

I do think that the House church model most closely represents early Christianity.
Jesus lived with his disciples in community, teaching them with hands on training.

I don't think Jesus would approve of the hierarchy and organizational structures that we have created that elevate men to be god’s over the Lord’s people.

The early church functioned as a family, they met and prayed and broke bread with each other from house to house. The early church lived in community and met each other’s needs as if they were family members.

It is apparent that many of our church practices originated as the RCC laid a Christian veneer on pagan rituals and Greek philosophy and rhetoric.

However, I believe that the Church was born in prayer in an upper room on the day of Pentecost. And for any movement to truly be a replication of the early church it would also have to respond the way the early Church responded when Peter told them to repent, be baptized in Jesus’ name for the remission of their sins, and you will receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

While I agree with this, I found your earlier post spoke to me more. But ty for both, I was unaware of this.

[renee819]

I read all 9 pages of this Thread and enjoyed it very much. Thank you Amanah, for doing this

Sabby wrote,
If Viola is right then the entire protestant church must de-construct it's form, liturgy, methodology, tradition, venues and so on; only then will we become liberated from christian paganism, that is, if it is indeed pagan christianity.

Sabby, It is my belief that they will not de-construct on their own. However, I believe that God is getting a group of people together, for the Religious Persecution, that is just around the corner.

Aquilla wrote,
An honest question.... What have we managed to accomplish?

We have the nicest buildings and most bloated organizations and denominations ever... yet society as a whole is largely going to Hades in a hand basket. Are we "playing church" and providing a "Sunday Show" without truly "discipling" believers to REACH their world and make more disciples? We NEVER see a church in the NT seeking to establish "members". The Apostles were always seeking to reach people with the Gospel, disciple them, train them, and send them out to disciple others. In a way... if in 10 years a church see the same families on the same pew doing what they've always done, plus others doing the same that were won during that time... the church has failed. They've only pewed "tithe cows" to keep the money coming in. Sometimes a bone of "ministry" is tossed to them and they teach Sunday School or something largely controlled and quiet. Honestly... Christianity spread through Rome like wildfire because the Apostles discipled people to disciple. Win, train, send. Win, train, send. Win, train send. And they turned one of the greatest empires on earth upside down. And it started with... 120 gathered in an upper room in the South West quarter of Jerusalem. I'd say we haven't truly accomplished anything accept making our ministers the best paid ministers in all of human history

Right Aquilla,

Does anyone know of Pentecostal House Church, close to Muncie, IN. We are probably getting ready to move close to Knoxville, TN, but that may take some time. I am hungry for fellowship with some like minded people.
.