Why Are You a Christian?

[A.W. Bowman]

Utilitarian Christianity, or are you ready to be a martyr?

One of the subject areas I am investigating for possible inclusion in a book I am researching involves the motivation people have for becoming a Christian – and ultimately, why one would want to continue to be identified as a Christian even if it meant total deprivation or even death?

This is a particularly difficult subject to address because it is so hard to get honest answers to the various questions that arise from confronting one’s self, Especially in a serious self examinations concerning what one believes and why – and how well one measures up to the religious standards they use to judge others. Most forks are just not willing to publicly share this level of intimacy. And - that is most likely a good idea. Therefore -

This is meant to be a rhetorical question and not to be answered in an open forum.

----------------------

This question does not come up very often and certainly not in an overt confrontation, but how would you answer the question, “Why are you a Christian?”

For example, what do you expect to get out of being identified as a Christian? What is your personal pay-off? Can you give three foundational reasons (justifications) for holding to your form of the Christian religion? Why is your form of Christianity better than someone else’s? And, why is your religion better than every other non-Christian form, or type of religion?

To know (being able to identify and explain) what you believe and why, goes a long way toward establishing one’s testimony and authenticity in the eyes of others.

Being able to mound a credible challenge to what you profess to believe in gives you the ability to effectively meet the challenges (arguments) that others will confront you with. Non-personal responses to challenges such as, “I believe in (this or that) because the Bible says so.”, will not win many converts to Christ. After all, most non-Christians don’t think ‘your Bible’ has much value anyway, and certainly has no authority in their lives.

So, the final question remains: Why are you a Christian?

A follow up question would be, “Are you true to your professed religious beliefs, i.e. do you live up to, and perform all of the duties and responsibilities that your religion requires of you?” If you had to judge yourself as God will judge you, how do you measure up, today?

:grampa

[Cindy]

Wow, you just start right off with a tough question that requires some thought. :)

I will get back to you on this.

[Withdrawn]

Bro, it's so good to see you back. I heard that you were posting again on AFF, so I thought I'd come see what you had to say.

I know you meant for this to be rhetorical, but I'll jump in. I am right now in the midst of the greatest trial of my Christian life, and am finding that transparency and self-awareness are my dearest and truest friends right now.

“Why are you a Christian?”

For example, what do you expect to get out of being identified as a Christian? What is your personal pay-off? Can you give three foundational reasons (justifications) for holding to your form of the Christian religion? Why is your form of Christianity better than someone else’s? And, why is your religion better than every other non-Christian form, or type of religion?

Twenty six years ago, when I was a fresh convert and new zealot for the Oneness Pentecostal message, I would have had to honestly and proudly answer that I became a Christian to escape judgment and hell in exchange for an everlasting home of unimaginable riches. Actually, more honestly, if you had asked this question just 6 or 7 years ago, the response would probably have been the same though I would have out of obligation had to add "because I love Jesus so much" (whether it were really true or not).

Now, several miles down a long and winding road, I will tell you it's because above all else, He is worthy of my allegiance and my worship and honor because He is God, the Creator and sustainer of this universe, and the Savior of all. The lengths that He went to in order to secure my redemption is enough for me to say, "Worthy is the Lamb which was slain to receive power and glory and wisdom and honor", and surely my love and commitment to him is the earnest reward of His sufferings.

I used to view Christianity in much more humanistic terms - escaping punishment (my benefit), gaining heaven (gaining something in exchange for nothing), and blessings (more free gifts to make me more comfortable along the way). While I still often struggle with these humanistic tendencies, I'm living now with a greater sense that it's not about my comfort, it's not about what I want, it's not about how special I am; but it IS about HIS DESIRES, HIS WILL, HIS CALLING and HIS WORD. He didn't save me so I could be comfortable and blessed for the rest of my life. He saved me so I would deny myself, take up His cross of suffering, and serve Him by serving those for whom He died until I've spent myself for that purpose.

A follow up question would be, “Are you true to your professed religious beliefs, i.e. do you live up to, and perform all of the duties and responsibilities that your religion requires of you?” If you had to judge yourself as God will judge you, how do you measure up, today?

:grampa
Daily I DO NOT measure up. Daily I DO NOT live up to and perform all the required duties and responsibilities of His calling. But I've come to terms with grace enough to finally understand that it's not about my performance or ability, but about Christ's ability to use a severely broken man to accomplish His purpose. Am I always pleasing to Him? Certainly not. But I know that I am accepted and beloved, and in His hands. Where my actions are not always pleasing, and I'm the world's biggest screw-up, I know that when I humbly turn to Him in repentance He meets me there.

[Timmy]

A roughly equivalent question, for the unbelievers among us:

Why should you become a Christian?

[A.W. Bowman]

Greetings Jim - good to be back. I have accepted a position with a small ministerial alliance with the view of examining our Christian doctrines. It is a challenge that I am certainly not up to, but, I have accepted the task to at least bring to light some of our doctrinal beliefs that are at best shaky and at worse, simply wrong.

As part of this undertaking, we need to examine our motivations, preconceived ideas, etc. To separate fact from fantasy is especially difficult simply because so much of what we hold to, while containing non-biblical ideas, never-the-less seem to work (at least some of the time), which provides us with a false since of assurance that 'I am right' and every one who disagrees with me must therefore be 'wrong'. We demand uniformity in our religious performance (things we can measure), and have no clue what spiritual unity means (relationships with God and with one another).

I know you meant for this to be rhetorical, but I'll jump in. I am right now in the midst of the greatest trial of my Christian life, and am finding that transparency and self-awareness are my dearest and truest friends right now.

You have hit upon the key to true relationships. It is a most dangerous path to tread. Few are those who can accept such transparency - and fewer still are those who will respond in like fashion. It is called love, and the willingness to die for its cause.

I would also venture to guess that you have viewed the Revival Hymn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec5dJHtMTSg&list=LLJr0mg3UxfMk_gnzm3nzKkw&index=1&feature=plpp_video) and took to heart the lesson of religious humanism and its destructive nature. It has been one of the most challenging issues for me to confront.

When I finally came to terms that God does not exist for my benefit, but that I exist for His (purpose, will, pleasure) - it changed my entire life.

[A.W. Bowman]

A roughly equivalent question, for the unbelievers among us:

Why should you become a Christian?

For no personal reason at all. To become a Christian is to become a committed disciple (student) of the Christ and His doctrines (teachings) - and to accept and live by those teachings. Untimely, becoming a disciple will cost one everything that they think they have, and and in the end, what will that individual have to show for their existence? A fancy casket?

There are those who will continue to search for the answers to life's questions, but as long as their desire is to remain the center of their own creation (self-centered, prideful, ego driven), for the few years that they walk upon this earth, they must remain outside the fellowship with God. This also includes professing Christians who desire to use God for their own ends (personal agendas). There are many who look religious, talk to lingo and perform on demand, but wile they make great claims of worship, their hearts are still centered upon themselves. No one is fooled by these performances, except those who also harbor the same self-centered desires.

There are no 'rational' arguments that one can make to persuade another to accept a servant's role to a God they cannot see nor touch, for the creator of the universe does not fit into the Greek (western) world view. It is not 'rational' to become a voluntary servant to something or someone you cannot see or understand. So, as long as a person remains blind to the spiritual side of creation, then this physical existence is all that they can hope to experience - and from these few years of life, to take in all of the personal pleasure they can, at whatever price they are willing to pay.

[Timmy]

For no personal reason at all. To become a Christian is to become a committed disciple (student) of the Christ and His doctrines (teachings) - and to accept and live by those teachings. Untimely, becoming a disciple will cost one everything that they think they have, and and in the end, what will that individual have to show for their existence? A fancy casket?

There are those who will continue to search for the answers to life's questions, but as long as their desire is to remain the center of their own creation (self-centered, prideful, ego driven), for the few years that they walk upon this earth, they must remain outside the fellowship with God. This also includes professing Christians who desire to use God for their own ends (personal agendas). There are many who look religious, talk to lingo and perform on demand, but wile they make great claims of worship, their hearts are still centered upon themselves. No one is fooled by these performances, except those who also harbor the same self-centered desires.

There are no 'rational' arguments that one can make to persuade another to accept a servant's role to a God they cannot see nor touch, for the creator of the universe does not fit into the Greek (western) world view. It is not 'rational' to become a voluntary servant to something or someone you cannot see or understand. So, as long as a person remains blind to the spiritual side of creation, then this physical existence is all that they can hope to experience - and from these few years of life, to take in all of the personal pleasure they can, at whatever price they are willing to pay.

Just as not all believers aren't self-centered, prideful, and ego-driven, not all unbelievers are self-centered, prideful, and ego-driven. Hope you know that. ;)

[A.W. Bowman]

Just as not all believers aren't self-centered, prideful, and ego-driven, not all unbelievers are self-centered, prideful, and ego-driven. Hope you know that. ;)

Yep - I know that. Take a Buddhist, or a follower of Jainism, for example.

However, I don't recall ever having met an atheist who was not a law unto himself and considered himself to be the center and the focus of their own existence, and that they were the author and judge of their own moral law. Just like some professing religious folks.

[mizpeh]

I was an atheist until God showed me that he existed and that his name is Jesus.

[A.W. Bowman]

I was an atheist until God showed me that he existed and that his name is Jesus.

That is usually the way of it. We frequently do our own thing, even spiritual stuff, until something happens and we end up 'trying the Jesus thing' as the last option.

[Amanah]

Living by the principles of the bible as best you know them, is the best way to live.
Those principles will teach you to love.
To Love God and love others.
To be a better spouse and parent.
To respect your body as the temple of the Lord and to take care of it.
To respect ourselves as children of the most high God.
To respect the resources of the earth and the animals on the planet entrusted to our care.
To be honest in our business dealings with others.
To be a better employee/employer.
To be altruistic to the poor and needy among us.
To be kind and caring to all we meet and interact with.

To not live by the principles of God is embrace the consequences of living a shallow, self-centered, meaningless life.

[Aquila]

Living by the principles of the bible as best you know them, is the best way to live.
Those principles will teach you to love.
To Love God and love others.
To be a better spouse and parent.
To respect your body as the temple of the Lord and to take care of it.
To respect ourselves as children of the most high God.
To respect the resources of the earth and the animals on the planet entrusted to our care.
To be honest in our business dealings with others.
To be a better employee/employer.
To be altruistic to the poor and needy among us.
To be kind and caring to all we meet and interact with.

To not live by the principles of God is embrace the consequences of living a shallow, self-centered, meaningless life.

Amanah,

Praise the Lord! I agree with the overall premise of your post. However, I want to stress something that I didn’t see mentioned.

Here’s a truth that many of us know, but we forget it… living by “biblical principles” do not and cannot save you. For example, a deeply “religious” person can live by “biblical principles” and not actually have a relationship with Christ. All the things you listed are wonderful things. But I think choosing to live by biblical principles is spiritual blood poison. Why? Because it’s typically rooted in several very deadly motivations:

- To become a better person.
- To improve the relationships around us.
- To gain prosperity and blessing.
- To be “holier” than the church down the road or the neighbor next door.
- To attempt to improve a circumstance that is out of your control.
- And perhaps the worst one of all… To go to Heaven.

None of the things above are saving motivators. Yes, they are all “positive” things… but they will land a person in Hell as quickly as any sin or rebellion. Why? It is because they are the essence of legalism.

Here are some truths that often shock believers when they realize them:

- The Father DOESN’T desire you to become a better you.
- The relationships around you are secondary to the Father’s plan for you.
- The Father DOESN’T always desire earthly prosperity for His children.
- The Father DOESN’T have a “holier-o-meter” whereby one is found holier than another.
- The Father wants you to surrender to His will in all things, realizing that there is NOTHING you can do to change various circumstances but to hold to His hand.
- The Father DOESN’T want you to live “biblical principles” in order to simply “go to Heaven”.
The Father’s single purpose and desire is to see those whom He has chosen become conformed into the image of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. In this we become His children. You see… any denomination can outline religious principles based upon the Bible and therefore call them “biblical principles”. But those principles are always interpreted according to that denomination. If we live by the “biblical principles” as interpreted by our church or denomination… we become conformed into the image of our church or denomination… not the image of Jesus. God doesn’t desire us to live by biblical principles or standards; nor does the Father desire us to find our spiritual identities in them. There is only one standard and one principle: Jesus. Jesus is the standard… we are to be Christlike in all things. The principle whereby we achieve this is “oneness” with God through the Holy Spirit. Being “born again” involves regeneration, a change of nature. Regeneration is new life. Regeneration is becoming a new creature. This is because once the Holy Spirit comes to reside in us, Christ is in us, and we in Him. This is a spiritual “oneness” wherein we become one with God, in Christ, through the Spirit. Yes, God desires us to be “one” with Him, that He might manifest Jesus in us, by conforming us into the image of Jesus Himself.

This transformation alone is God’s goal for each and every one of us…not the living by principles. Because living by principles does not and cannot change your nature. Think about it… being conformed into the likeness of Jesus, having the mind of Christ, will we not automatically live out what were listed above as principles? Of course. Now, instead of being a checklist of principles to live by (a law) those things are something that naturally emanates from us (fruit).

Everything, including Heaven, is the result of this transformation. Allow the very person of Christ to completely possess you and permeate your very being. So don’t loose sight and seek to be a “better” anything by living in accordance to various principles, standards, or “spiritual laws”. Simply… be Jesus.

[Aquila]

That is usually the way of it. We frequently do our own thing, even spiritual stuff, until something happens and we end up 'trying the Jesus thing' as the last option.

Could this be of God’s design? It’s human nature to do our own thing, even spiritual stuff (mostly serving self), until something happens, or a tragedy befalls us… and then we end up “trying the Jesus” thing as a last option.

What if the circumstance or the tragedy is by God’s design, an agent of grace, to drive us to the end of our self sufficiency, ability, and ego? What if God’s grace is being demonstrated in the trial that breaks our rebellious souls? Should we look down on a man who resists God for decades... until God sends the storm that breaks Him? I mean, after all, God loved him enough to send the storm that broke him and then opened his eyes to his need of a Saviour.

Consider the story of John Newton, the writer of Amazing Grace:

The Story of John Newton
Born in England, his mother died when he was seven. His father remarried and sent him away to school for a few years. At age eleven he left school and joined his father's ship to start life as a seaman. His early years were one continuous round of rebellion and debauchery. Newton eventually became the captain of a slave ship, but was such a cruel and vicious man, that his own crew mutinied and threw him overboard. Extracted from the waters, the slave trader himself became a slave. In 1748, while returning to England from Africa during a particularly stormy voyage, when all appeared lost, he began reading Thomas A. Kemps' book, Imitation of Christ. The message of Christ contained in this book and the frightening sea around him were used by the Holy Spirit to sow the seeds of his eventual conversion and personal acceptance of Jesus Christ as his Lord and Saviour.


Eventually freed, he returned to England, married, studied for the ministry, and, at age thirty-nine, entered the pastorate. He often used the story of his own life in his services and it was so effective he became known as the "Old Converted Sea Captain." An "extremist" practice he used in his Church was that of singing Hymns that expressed simple, heartfelt faith rather than the monotonous, repetitious, and void of true worship, singing that was common place. When he couldn't find enough hymns, he started writing his own. Over a period of years he and William Cowper produced the famous Olney Hymns Hymnal which contains 349 hymns, 282 written by himself. He pastored for a total of 45 years.


At age eighty-two this man went home to be with his Father. Until that time he never ceased to marvel at God's mercy and grace that had so dramatically changed his life. In the last years of his life while preaching he proclaimed in a loud voice, "My memory is nearly gone, but I remember two things: "That I am a great sinner and that Christ is a great Saviour!" In the Churchyard in Olney, England, you will find his name on a tombstone. On it also you will find the following inscription written by him before his going home. I think it says all required to know of the faith of this man, a man who transformed thousands of lives by his very presence.


John Newton, clerk, once an infidel and libertine, a servant of slavers in Africa, was by the rich mercy of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, preserved, restored, pardoned, and appointed to preach the faith he had long labored to destroy.


As wicked a man as John Newton was, the Bible says "There is none righteous, no not one" Romans 3:10 It is hard for us to admit that ,in God's eye, we are all no better than this man. We all deserve Hell, but, like Newton, we must all say "That I am a great sinner and that Christ is a great Saviour!"

I praise God for the trials that bring men to their knees to “try the Jesus thing”. It’s often evidence of God’s grace, love, and mercy.

[Timmy]

That is usually the way of it. We frequently do our own thing, even spiritual stuff, until something happens and we end up 'trying the Jesus thing' as the last option.

It's not always the last option. ;)

[A.W. Bowman]

Could this be of God’s design? It’s human nature to do our own thing, even spiritual stuff (mostly serving self), until something happens, or a tragedy befalls us… and then we end up “trying the Jesus” thing as a last option.

Most assuredly! Then I look around and see people (including myself), falling back into self-serving modes of living. Even to the point of using God as a means to accomplish our own agendas. It is a continuous effort to keep the desires of the fleshly nature at bay. Being a life long job, perhaps that is why our bodies cannot enter into heaven, but must be first transformed. Even the physical body of Jesus had to undergo such a transformation before He could ascend.

Aquila - thank you.

Here’s a truth that many of us know, but we forget it… living by “biblical principles” do not and cannot save you. For example, a deeply “religious” person can live by “biblical principles” and not actually have a relationship with Christ. All the things you listed are wonderful things. But I think choosing to live by biblical principles is spiritual blood poison. Why? Because it’s typically rooted in several very deadly motivations:

- To become a better person.
- To improve the relationships around us.
- To gain prosperity and blessing.
- To be “holier” than the church down the road or the neighbor next door.
- To attempt to improve a circumstance that is out of your control.
- And perhaps the worst one of all… To go to Heaven.

The chink in our armor has been exposed.

[Amanah]

well, if nothing else, I've provided you all with a target.

Oh, and I never said living by biblical principles saves us.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I am a Christian because I desire to be a disciple of Jesus Christ because He rescued me from a life of sin and shame.I desire for others to find the peace that only He can give.

[Amanah]

Amanah,

Praise the Lord! I agree with the overall premise of your post. However, I want to stress something that I didn’t see mentioned.

Here’s a truth that many of us know, but we forget it… living by “biblical principles” do not and cannot save you. For example, a deeply “religious” person can live by “biblical principles” and not actually have a relationship with Christ. All the things you listed are wonderful things. But I think choosing to live by biblical principles is spiritual blood poison. Why? Because it’s typically rooted in several very deadly motivations:

- To become a better person.
- To improve the relationships around us.
- To gain prosperity and blessing.
- To be “holier” than the church down the road or the neighbor next door.
- To attempt to improve a circumstance that is out of your control.
- And perhaps the worst one of all… To go to Heaven.

None of the things above are saving motivators. Yes, they are all “positive” things… but they will land a person in Hell as quickly as any sin or rebellion. Why? It is because they are the essence of legalism.

Here are some truths that often shock believers when they realize them:

- The Father DOESN’T desire you to become a better you.
- The relationships around you are secondary to the Father’s plan for you.
- The Father DOESN’T always desire earthly prosperity for His children.
- The Father DOESN’T have a “holier-o-meter” whereby one is found holier than another.
- The Father wants you to surrender to His will in all things, realizing that there is NOTHING you can do to change various circumstances but to hold to His hand.
- The Father DOESN’T want you to live “biblical principles” in order to simply “go to Heaven”.
The Father’s single purpose and desire is to see those whom He has chosen become conformed into the image of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. In this we become His children. You see… any denomination can outline religious principles based upon the Bible and therefore call them “biblical principles”. But those principles are always interpreted according to that denomination. If we live by the “biblical principles” as interpreted by our church or denomination… we become conformed into the image of our church or denomination… not the image of Jesus. God doesn’t desire us to live by biblical principles or standards; nor does the Father desire us to find our spiritual identities in them. There is only one standard and one principle: Jesus. Jesus is the standard… we are to be Christlike in all things. The principle whereby we achieve this is “oneness” with God through the Holy Spirit. Being “born again” involves regeneration, a change of nature. Regeneration is new life. Regeneration is becoming a new creature. This is because once the Holy Spirit comes to reside in us, Christ is in us, and we in Him. This is a spiritual “oneness” wherein we become one with God, in Christ, through the Spirit. Yes, God desires us to be “one” with Him, that He might manifest Jesus in us, by conforming us into the image of Jesus Himself.

This transformation alone is God’s goal for each and every one of us…not the living by principles. Because living by principles does not and cannot change your nature. Think about it… being conformed into the likeness of Jesus, having the mind of Christ, will we not automatically live out what were listed above as principles? Of course. Now, instead of being a checklist of principles to live by (a law) those things are something that naturally emanates from us (fruit).

Everything, including Heaven, is the result of this transformation. Allow the very person of Christ to completely possess you and permeate your very being. So don’t loose sight and seek to be a “better” anything by living in accordance to various principles, standards, or “spiritual laws”. Simply… be Jesus.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to live by the principle of God's word. I suppose you are going to live by demonic principles?

What is the purpose of the bible if not to give us principles to live by?

Timothy:

14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

[Amanah]

1Ti 4:16

1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine 1319; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself , and them that hear thee.

Doctrine, ie, principles of God's word will save you and those that hear you.

1) teaching, instruction

2) teaching

a) that which is taught, doctrine

b) teachings, precepts

[A.W. Bowman]

well, if nothing else, I've provided you all with a target.

Oh, and I never said living by biblical principles saves us.

No one was 'targeting you', sis. Aquila was simply taking what you provided and expanded it to include non-believers who, through their own spiritual nature and/or non-Christian religion, found the principles in the Bible to be acceptable as guidelines for living, yet, without ever touching the God of Israel. (Matthew 15:8, 2 Timothy 3:1-9)

As these references reflect, there are those among the 'believing' that, while they go through the motions of the faithful, a disciple, their hearts are not turned toward the Christ. (Matthew 7:21-23)

You do well, please continue.

[Amanah]

Well, I don't blame others for not wanting to answer in a post as it's much easier to point out where someone falls short then to give an account of yourself.

I know that God is able to make me stand, I stand by faith in Jesus and he will perfect me.

So even if my reasons for living for him are not perfect, I still stand by faith, as I have the Holy Ghost as the earnest of my inheritance and God will perfect that which is lacking in me.

That having been said. I find that living by the principles in God's Word is what makes my life meaningfull and sane.

And I guess I will have to be done with this thread as it seems I'm to emotional about it, making it pointless for me to continue.

[Aquila]

Amanah, none of this is an attack on you. We’re just expanding on your post. God bless you and please stay in the conversation.

I’ll try to clarify my thoughts…

There is nothing wrong with wanting to live by the principle of God's word. I suppose you are going to live by demonic principles?

We are not called to “live by principles” but rather we are called to “walk after the Spirit”.

What is the purpose of the bible if not to give us principles to live by?

I think that is an excellent question. It is an excellent question because it reveals a common misconception that has been drilled into us. You see… if the Bible’s purpose is to give us “principles to live by”… it is basically just a rule book (a Law). This is what many of us commonly call a “legalistic mindset” regarding the purpose of the Bible. Let’s take the purpose of the Bible a bit beyond being a rule book of principles. I believe that the Bible’s purpose is primarily to reveal a person… Jesus. Why? Because Jesus is our Redeemer and it is the Father’s will that we be fashioned, or conformed, into His image and likeness and that His mind is to be found in us. Now, there are “principles” that can be found in the Scriptures, that I too believe. However, it gets way down into the nitty-gritty when we examine the originating motivation for living by those principles. You see… if we live by those principles because we want to “live by the Bible’s principles”, then all we’ve done is choose a set of rules to live by. While that’s ethically good, and biblical principles will not lead us wrong, they do not change us, save us, or renew us. However, if we have the Holy Ghost and we have been regenerated by our union with God through the Spirit, living by those principles becomes a natural desire. For example, you don’t have to teach a fish to swim. A fish doesn’t focus on the principles of swimming… they swim because it is in their nature to do so. Swimming is therefore a “fruit” resulting from their nature. An apple tree doesn’t strive to live by the principles of bearing apples. It bears apples because of its innate nature. Let’s look at the Ten Commandments. Many “strive” to live by them. But the born again Christian finds the peace of living by them second nature. We actually desire to do the things God desires of us. We sink into deep conviction, depression, shame, and guilt if we don’t. Why? It is because we are not acting in accordance to the new nature of the “inner man”. In fact, if you feel VERY convicted, uncomfortable, depressed, shameful, or guilty about sin… it’s a good sign. It clearly demonstrates that you have a new nature that’s troubled by the inconsistent behavior. Oh, Christians do sin. However, a Christian who willingly engages in a lifestyle of sin is a fish out of water. They will hit rock bottom with deep emotional, psychological, and spiritual problems. Some can be driving to suicide.

The “principles” of scripture are essentially examples of the life of Christ being lived out. They are not stand alone principles or rules. If we are filled with the Spirit of Christ, allowing our very character and being to be conformed into the image of Christ, and taking on the mind of Christ… the “principles” don’t need to be abided by… they will naturally be lived out.

For example, a Christian shouldn’t say, “Is it wrong to steal? Because if it’s wrong to steal I will not steal.” A Christian should say, “Would Christ in me steal? If not, I will surrender my will and allow Jesus to live through me in this temptation to steal.”

You see… it’s not about “being a better person”. God hates our persons. We are vile in His sight, even at our best. God desires that we, in our entirety, be reckoned crucified with Christ that Christ might live in us. A “better you” isn’t good enough, because it’s still just “you”. So living by biblical principles isn’t enough. Allowing those principles to be lived out through us… now that is part of allowing the life of Christ Himself to be lived out through us.

One more thing, notice that your post doesn’t even include the name of Jesus. Now, I would never doubt your salvation or love for Christ, and I don’t. However, this fact illustrates my point wonderfully. If we look at the Bible like a rule book… we begin to focus on the rules (or principles) and we loose sight of the very person the Bible is designed to reveal… Jesus. The fact of the matter is… it all begins and ends in Him. Our being one with Him and being conformed into His image.

Consider this…

Those who live by Biblical principles as defined by the Catholic Church are being conformed into the image of… the Catholic Church.

Those who live by Biblical principles as defined by the Methodist Church are being conformed into the image of… the Methodist Church.

Those who live by Biblical principles as defined by the Baptist Church are being conformed into the image of… the Baptist Church.

Those who live by Biblical principles as defined by the Presbyterian Church are being conformed into the image of… the Presbyterian Church.

Those who live by Biblical principles as defined by the United Pentecostal Church are being conformed into the image of… the United Pentecostal Church.

Please note… none of them are being conformed into the image of Jesus as long as their focus is “living by the principles” as defined by their church. They will die as good Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, and United Pentecostals… but they will not stand before God fashioned in Christ’s image. This is the spiritual blood poison of legalism… it’s an invisible idolatry. The worship of rules and principles to the exclusion of Christ's life indwelling us.

However, those Christians who seek one thing, and one thing alone… Jesus… and seek to allow HIM to live in them and through them by the Spirit… these are the ones who will be found conformed into Christ’s image when they die and stand before the Lord.

Ah, the way is VERY narrow. The way is Jesus. The truth is Jesus. The door is Jesus. The life is Jesus. What are our “standards”? All that pertains to the person of Jesus Himself. He alone is our standard. This single governing truth will bring spiritual balance and harmony. Now…instead of trying to live by principles to be a “good Christian” or to be a “better person”… we are now surrendering to allow ourselves to be a living expression of Jesus Himself… those principles are then lived out as “fruit” of this central truth.

Timothy:

14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Amen. However, never forget…. We are but vines… Jesus is the branch. Without Him… we can do nothing.

[Aquila]

With regards to the question asking “why I am a Christian”….

I’ve given it some thought and it’s a most powerful question. I have to resolve myself to saying, “I don’t know.” After meditating on the question the best answer I can provide is that I’m a Christian because God chose me before time began in accordance to His love and grace that Christ be formed and revealed in me. Why me? I don’t know. I know that I don’t deserve it. Even today there are times when I am least deserving of this grace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IQUXJ_H16Y&feature=related

[Amanah]

Aquila, please give a more explicit answer so I can poke holes in it.

When I answered the question, I was not explaining how to be saved. And my answer was not excluding my love for Jesus, my relationship with Jesus, ect.

But when I don't FEEL the love, or dont FEEL connected, I always find it compeling that living the life of a Christian is the best way a person can live their life, regardless.

Living the life of a Christian, loving God, means keeping his commandments, loving one another, it does mean reading your bible and being molded by its precepts.

And no, we can not do this on our own, we are dependant on Christ to perfect his life in us, according to his word.

I suppose your reasons are more ethereal and lofty and spiritual in your opinion, but I think to say that being a Christian with all it entails, is the best possible life.

[Aquila]

Aquila, please give a more explicit answer so I can poke holes in it.

When I answered the question, I was not explaining how to be saved. And my answer was not excluding my love for Jesus, my relationship with Jesus, ect.

But when I don't FEEL the love, or dont FEEL connected, I always find it compeling that living the life of a Christian is the best way a person can live their life, regardless.

Living the life of a Christian, loving God, means keeping his commandments, loving one another, it does mean reading your bible and being molded by its precepts.

And no, we can not do this on our own, we are dependant on Christ to perfect his life in us, according to his word.

I suppose your reasons are more ethereal and lofty and spiritual in your opinion, but I think to say that being a Christian with all it entails, is the best possible life.

Amanah,

I think we are basically in agreement. However, I suggest you read a book titled Grace Walk and perhaps Grace Rules.

[TGBTG]

"Why am I a Christian?"

I never chose to be a Christian. In fact, I was living my own life (full of sin and especially hypocrisy) until God saved me. I grew up in a christian home, had head knowledge of the bible, but wasn't saved. I had one behavior in school (attended a boarding school), and another at home.

God allowed me (looking back in retrospect) hit rock bottom in my sinful life. Sin had me as its slave. What started as "pleasure" now held me in bondage.

Fast forward to college years, I was still living in my sin. I have to say though, I had some type of conviction. This was prolly due to growing up in a xtian home.

Anyhow, when I hit rock bottom, I desperately needed help. Being that I grew up in a religious setting, I easily found my way to church (at least I remembered "whosoever shall call on the Lord shall be saved"). I wanted to be saved from my addiction. (Maybe not necessarily wanting to totally surrender to Jesus, lol). All I wanted was to be saved from addiction.

Anyhow, I started attending this particular church. While attending this church, I became convicted of my hypocritical life. So one Sunday, when I could no longer bear it, I called the pastor after service and I shared with him how I was living in sin even though I now attended church.

He prayed with me that sunday afternoon. I felt really light (like a burden was lifted off of me that day). I went home overjoyed. The next morning, I woke up with joy. I was just full of joy.

Anyhow, two weeks later at church, the pastor was about to preach his sermon. While we were worshipping, just as the pastor was about to pray and begin his sermon, he said he felt led to call out to the front of the church anybody who has not received the "baptism of the HolyGhost with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues" (I'm not trying to start an argument. Just stating the facts as they occurred in my life).

I went to the front of the church (some other guy came out too). So the pastor laid his hands on me and anointed me with oil in the sign of the cross (oh yeah, it was a trinitarian church, not trying to argue, just stating the facts).

So we continued singing worship songs as I stood in front of the church. The pastor began speaking in tongues. Then he said something to the effect "you may not know what you're saying, but just speak."

In my mind, I was thinking, how can I just speak. Having grown up in a Christian home, even though I was living in my sin, I had always a certain fear never to even try to imitate speaking in tongues. You see, most Christian folks I knew growing up who spoke in tongues, I saw them as extremely powerful Christians. So I believed speaking in tongues was for really holy Christians. Since I wasn't holy, I wasn't even expecting to receive anything from God.

[TGBTG]

Continuing...

Anyway, back to me standing in front of the church with the fear of "I will never try to imitate speaking in tongues" going through my mind. After a while, I kind of stopped focusing on the thoughts in my mind and more on the worship (we were singing worship songs). So we kept worshipping. My eyes were closed. All of a sudden, I could feel a warm feeling. I saw like a fire coming over me and into me. Although my eyes were closed, I could see/feel this fire. Simultaneously, the words began to flow. It was as if I was hearing the words in my soul (or should I say spirit). I just began to utter the words as they came into my soul. The more I spoke, the more I was engulfed in this fire. Before I knew what was occurring, I was speaking in clear tongues as the Spirit gave utterance (of course, I only quote this scripture now, back then I did not know what was occurring).

My, I felt this immense boldness in me right there and then. The joy was so much more (compared to what I had experienced two Sundays before). I remember jumping about in the church 'cause the joy in me was just too much.

I felt so much love in my heart, it was incredible. I remember going to work that Sunday afternoon with so much joy. Then I began to tell my co-workers about Jesus. The boldness was just there. I talked about Jesus so much, I couldn't even help it…lol
I remember the Monday after I received the HolyGhost, I woke up earlier than usual just to pray. This desire to pray was just there. I took my bible with me everywhere. In school, during my break periods, I would just be reading the bible. The bible now had meaning to me.

I remember my facebook and yahoo account were both hacked just a couple of days after receiving the HolyGhost. So I got a new fbook and email account. It was like God was giving me a new beginning cos boy, I sure do not want to see the things in my previous fbook and email accounts…lol

Anyway, from then on, this journey with Jesus has been so sweet. In fact, it gets sweeter as the days go by.

So looking back on how God saved me, I don't know if I can say I chose to be a Christian, but I can say truly, the "goodness of God led me to repentance." I am washed in his blood. He filled me with the HolyGhost. He saved me not for anything I did. He saved me just based on his righteousness. Now, I know beyond every shadow of doubt that I have eternal life. Praise be to Jesus.

(In retrospect, I now understand what Jesus meant in John 7:37. Truly, it's like water out my belly)

Oh I almost forgot, my addiction was taken away that Sunday I received the HolyGhost. Honestly, at first, I couldn't believe it was taken away. Where had the desire gone to I wondered? All I know is that it was no longer there. And up till today, I am standing in Christ by the grace of God.

[TGBTG]

Continuing...

So why do I remain a Christian and not go back? Just a few off the top of my head

1.Well, first of all, I can’t go back even if I tried. The desire to sin is gone. I can't find it. Don't get me wrong, my flesh has been tempted, but the desire I had before my salvation is not there. So I can’t even "enjoy" the things I used to do. This was actually one of the first things I realized after my salvation. My desire to the addiction was gone. I remember trying to go back to try it, and discovered to my amazement that I just don't have the desire. I went to a club once after getting saved 'cause I was "bored". I did not feel at home there at all. I was telling the guy I went with "Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners…" So the guy was like, let's just go home. He wasn't feeling comfy either since I was just quoting scriptures while in there…lol
The world no longer appeals to me. So what else can I do than to live for Jesus…lol?

(I think it's funny that I wanted God to deliver me, and then when he did, I still doubted. Oh well, he knows I am just dust..lol)

2. I love Jesus. I have failed him even after he saved me, but every time I ask him to forgive me, he does. I love Jesus because he first loved me and purchased my salvation while I was still wallowing in my sin. Am I perfect? Not yet. Do I know all about Jesus? Not yet. But I long to know him more. To know the fellowship of his suffering and the power of his resurrection. To be conformed to his death.

3. I love my journey with/in Christ. It's the best thing that ever happened to me. If I had another life to live, I would choose to live it for Jesus. Only this time, I'd rather start living for him at an earlier age.


I long to see my Savior
Oh what blessed day that would be
When all the bickering of the world would go
When all the worldly distractions would be gone
And I shall see my Savior face to face
Even Jesus my Lord and my God.

[onefaith2]

What a powerful testimony of a true conversion!

[Aquila]

Absolutely beautiful TGBTG. Praise God.

[AreYouReady?]

Ah, the way is VERY narrow.

I thought about this very thing just a couple days ago and the realization that I come up quite short is disturbing to me.

When I was a young adult, I thought about life in general. How we grow up, train for a career, get married, buy a home, have a few children, work for 50 years, grow old, retire...then die.

I used to think...there has to be more to life than this. I used to wonder what is the purpose for my existence here on earth?

Being a Christian is not for the faint-hearted. Christians have to take a stand on what one personally believes of what they read in the Bible and what they pray for in the Spirit, not just what the church they attend teaches and expects you to follow. Many times what one personally believes in how Jesus wants us to walk with Him clashes with what any given church denomination teaches.

Christ was our perfect example of ministering. He denied Himself of his own life. He fed thousands of people. He washed feet. He healed the sick and raised the dead. He laid down His life for mankind. He came to show us how we are to act towards our brothers and sisters in the Lord. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

(Luke 10:27)

While I am sure that there are ministers who do this, I have never yet seen a minister symbolically take a towel and wash the saint's feet in church...to be examples to us.

But, have I invited people into my home to symbolically wash feet and minister to others to be an example to them? No. I have not ministered to people in the way Christ has. I have not taken up my cross and denied myself.

Am I walking the straight and narrow way?

While we are saved by the blood of Jesus and by His grace, walking with Christ is not a one-size-fits-all experience. Often people within any denomination are persecuted by their own fellow worshippers because their walk deviates from what their church organization teaches, but not necessarily from what God's Word teaches.

In my young adult years, after researching several denominations for months, I knew I was "home" when I was baptized in Jesus Name. God answered many of my selfish prayers as the years have gone by. I am thankful that He did answer them, but now I feel that I have failed Him by not asking God to lead me into the life that He wants me to do. I feel ashamed that I have not taken up the cross and denied myself for Christ's sake.

[A.W. Bowman]

I thought about this very thing just a couple days ago and the realization that I come up quite short is disturbing to me.
.... God answered many of my selfish prayers as the years have gone by. I am thankful that He did answer them, but now I feel that I have failed Him by not asking God to lead me into the life that He wants me to do. I feel ashamed that I have not taken up the cross and denied myself for Christ's sake.

If you can impart such wisdom to the younger men and women around you, you will have done well. If you can get some 'older saints' to accept your doctrine (teaching), you will have done a very great service to the body of Christ, for the older saints can also teach the younger ones - with solid spiritual authority.

[A.W. Bowman]

I don't plan on adding anything to this thread for another day or two, but I would like to point out one thing.

As to right now, we have had 340 views of this thread. Now I realize that everyone who has posted here has looked in on this thread more than once. I probably have 10-15 looks my self. Yet, even by cutting the number of views in half, it indicates that somewhere around 150 members of this community may have at least looked at a few of the posts here.

While it may not be appropriate to publicly share what is going on within any one individual, I pray that this thread will serve as a starting point for self examination - a practice that no disciple of Christ can ever neglect.

[Amanah]

People may be hesitant to respond as they don't want to be criticized.
I actually regret responding to this thread as I feel I have been misunderstood.

[A.W. Bowman]

People may be hesitant to respond as they don't want to be criticized.
I actually regret responding to this thread as I feel I have been misunderstood.

Dear sister, please - from the lead-in post:

This is a particularly difficult subject to address because it is so hard to get honest answers to the various questions that arise from confronting one’s self, Especially in a serious self examination concerning what one believes and why – and how well one measures up to the religious standards they use to judge others. Most forks are just not willing to publicly share this level of intimacy. And - that is most likely a good idea. Therefore -

This is meant to be a rhetorical question and not to be answered in an open forum.
:grampa

No one targeted you, no one slammed you. But your reaction to the followup comments made by others is interesting - is it possible that it is you who have 'misunderstood' others? Or, that there is sufficient responsibility to go around? Is it also a possibility that exchanges like this can serve as a means for clarifying one's own thoughts, ideas, and positions?

Please, do not let this opportunity pass by - why have the exchanges on this thread upset (disturbed, offended) you? What could you do to improve your communications, or receive ideas that differ from what you thought you were sharing? And, what is it about this subject and the responses you have received, that seem to keep you on 'how you were treated', andnot moving on to further sharing?

Again, the answers to these kind of questions are for personal consideration only - not as an open forum counseling discussion - I am not qualified for that job.

Again, your comments to this discussion are a valuable contribution, please continue to share your thoughts on the question.

Shalom

[Amanah]

Dear sister, please - from the lead-in post:

Again, the answers to these kind of questions are for personal consideration only - not as an open forum counseling discussion - I am not qualified for that job.

Again, your comments to this discussion are a valuable contribution, please continue to share your thoughts on the question.

Shalom

You are right in that I should have kept my thoughts to myself. It isn't a good topic for discussion as it is too personal, just as you have said. If I could go back and undo my previous posts, I certainly would.

[Jay]

Amanah, I agree with you on this topic. I gave myself a few days before I gave decided to post. I have a number of reasons why I walk this way. There will be people who do not like or agree with my reasons but that will not bother me.

1) I love and desire to serve God.

2) I am thankful that He shed His blood on the cross for me.

3) I love living a life of holiness and modesty.

4) I love learning more about His Word.

5) I love His Church.

6) I desire to be obedient to all of His precepts, doctrines, and commands.

7) I want to go to Heaven.

8) I do not want to go to Hell.

9) I am looking forward to His soon coming.

10) I love seeing what God is doing in my life.

11) I love so see what God does in the lives of others.

12) I love to see the power of God.

13) I love seeing my prayers answered by God.

14) I love so pray to my God.

15) I love the name of Jesus.

16) I love to worship God.

17) I am thankful for His delivering power.

18) I am thankful to be saved from sin.

19) I enjoy being used by God.

20) I love being a representative of His in this world.

21) I love that I am His child.

22) I love to see Him answer prayer.

23) I love to see Him perform miracles, even those that I have only heard about.

24) I am thankful that He promised that everything that He did and more, He promised that I would do greater.

25) I do not want to be lost.

26) I am thankful for healing me and my family when we needed it.


These are not in any order outside of the way they came to mind, and some of them came all at once and so were written down that way. There are many other reasons that I am a Christian, but they are too many to list. And for any who would say that this list is all about me, read it again, because all that I have, am, will have, and will be are all because of Him. This is a list of reasons that I love and serve Him, with the head of the list having to be: 27) I am a Christian because He loved me.

[Amanah]

Jay, nice well rounded, honest list.

[Aquila]

We love Him because He first loved us.

[Godsdrummer]

Art

Just like you to get to the bottom of things, at least try. The simple fact or question is why did God create us? Why is everything equated in the thought of "what is salvation" and why are we trying to be saved? It is my understanding that God created us for the purpose of relationship with him. nothing more nothing less. What has being saved got to do with this? It is mans selfish human striving for something outside this life that has caused this. When over the years I have come to see it is not about eternal life rather what is this life all about.

We have twisted the desire of God of the primary reason we are born into this world. It is in this world he desires to have relationship with him not the world to come. The Kingdom of God is here on earth right now, it is right now that we have this special life that we can have this special relationship with God.

We miss the beauty of this life and world because we are too wrapped up in being saved for eternity because we think God is comming back to set up a world in which everything he created this world for is taken away. The harships that come in this life are what make relationships stronger. Take that away and what do you have? Nothing. Yet this is the direction most of Christianity is pushing for.

In Closing this thought I am reminded of Jesus words to the relgious leaders of his day. "you search the scriptures and think you have found eternal life, but they speak of me" Today we have come to do this very thing, we search the scripture looking for things we must do to obey, makeing man made rules and doctrines to follow to obtain eternal life. While all the while those verses do nothing more than direct us to personal relationship with our creator, not rules of obediance that are required to be saved.

I know this may have been criptique in trying to get my thoughts down but I hope some of what I am trying to say has gotten accross.

[RandyWayne]

One has to admit that attempting to avoid a trillion trillion eons of endless torment might be a small motivating factor..... :)

[A.W. Bowman]

I know this may have been criptique in trying to get my thoughts down but I hope some of what I am trying to say has gotten accross.

You did well, my friend.

[A.W. Bowman]

One has to admit that attempting to avoid a trillion trillion eons of endless torment might be a small motivating factor..... :)

This, I think, motivates more people than who are willing to make a public statement admitting to it. I call it "taking out fire insurance". But folks who think this approach will work have not read the entire contract.

[A.W. Bowman]

The additional comments I promised for Monday:

The reason for posing this question, “Why are you a Christian?” was to start folks thinking about what it is was that first drew them to Jesus and why they remain.

We know that there are many who have professed a belief in Christ and then have ‘fallen away’ from such a fellowship. There are others who also profess a belief in Christ but have never changed their lifestyle, which would indicate any change of heart concerning spiritual matters or in improved relationship with other people.

While not looking for responses to the question, I did expect a few might respond – and as might be expected, the responses covered a wide spectrum of views. What was not shared reveals even more than what was posted. I have posted this same question on a couple of different internet communities with as many different responses. I’ll share some of the basic responses later.

Now, what I had hoped to accomplish with this exercise: This is to set the initial stage for outlining my book focusing on a critical review of Christian doctrines. The individual answers to these kinds of questions, why are you a Christian, why do you remain a Christian, and what is your personal pay-off for being/remaining a Christian, and other such questions.

It was to test a theory that how one views God and their relationship with Him will have a profound influence on how one identifies, selects, and observes various religious doctrines. This includes viewpoints from both those in formal ministerial positions as well as the saints of God, in general. It is from these different viewpoints that we should come to understand why some biblical doctrines are accepted as presented in scripture, why some doctrines are modified by the application of human philosophies, and why some man-made doctrines are substituted for biblical doctrines.

There are those who became Christians because of all of the expected blessings that God has promised them. We also have those who want the promise of a good life after death, but want someone else to take the responsibility for fulfilling that desire. Some folks are only looking for a good social club or an opportunity to increase business. Then there are those who have simply taken out fire insurance. Others have seen a golden opportunity to make a good living by living off the saints. Still others found a way to satisfy their need to exercise control the lives of others, while some individuals actually saw themselves as God saw them, and the enormity of that sight crushed them into submission. So, depending on the worldview of the believer some spiritual teaching will be readily accepted while other solid biblical teaching will be summarily rejected.

For example: For those who believe that the local pastor sits in the seat of Moses, they will accept doctrines that support the pastor as the final spiritual authority in their lives. For those who reject this Moses precept, they will adhere to a different set of authority doctrines. This approach to doctrines hold true whether one is discussing which day to keep as holy unto God, the paying of tithes, or how one should view membership in a local church or the extended body of Christ. Consider the controversy over religious standards governing lifestyles and questions concerning how to define holiness. The issues seem to be almost endless, and no matter how much they are discussed, argued and fought over, there never seems to be an acceptable resolution to the conflicts. The history of the church proclaims that we are willing to kill one another over a lack of visible religious conformity, while we ignore the call for spiritual unity.

The expected results of such a book, as I am contemplating, will most likely create more heat than light, because by its very nature it will step on toes, egos, and expose hidden things of the heart – yes, including even my own! However, after all these years I think that I am willing to finally take a look behind the veil I have drawn over my own unacknowledged secrets.

:grampa

[A.W. Bowman]

While I do not intend to post the entire book on these pages, I am thinking of sharing some of what I am doing as articles for peer review and consideration.

The one thing that is absolutely imperative is this:

Do not expect for me to give anyone the answers to all of the issues of living out a God approved life - that is the purpose of the Bible, not anything I might write. What I intend to do is simply identify the issues, sort out what the Bible says about them, and then turn everyone loose to study and decide for themselves what they will accept and reject, and hopefully to understand why they are making the decisions that they have made.

I would also like to see the doctrines of men and their religious philosophies discarded in the process.

Shalom Aleichem

[Timmy]

This, I think, motivates more people than who are willing to make a public statement admitting to it. I call it "taking out fire insurance". But folks who think this approach will work have not read the entire contract.

:blink

[Timmy]

...

I would also like to see the doctrines of men and their religious philosophies discarded in the process.

...

Which doctrines of men? Certainly not all of them?

[A.W. Bowman]

Which doctrines of men? Certainly not all of them?

Hmmm Interesting question. Personally, I can't think of any man-made (authored by men) religious teaching that I would care to observe in lieu of, or incorporate into those doctrines authored by God. For my own reasons see Deu 4:2; 12:32)

Now, if anyone has a list of man-made (non-biblical) doctrines that they follow, and would like to share, I would certainly be interested in reviewing them.

Of course Timmy, if you are referring to the teaching of the world of God by men, that is an entirely different subject. Yet, even there, many teachers teach about the word of God, and seldom actually teach the word of God, as He gave it and intended for it to be understood and implemented in one's life.

The major problem in most of today's churches is we have the habit of lifting a sentence or two out of the Bible, even a partial sentence, and giving a 45 minute discourse of what the teacher thinks it should mean (a personal commentary generally not open to question or general discussion). Where we have ten teachers, we can expect to have at least 5-7 different interpretations and/or life applications, maybe even ten. And, yet we continue to wonder why we can't seem to achieve any degree of spiritual unity among the assemblies.

My personal opinion is that most teachers (and church goers), find much of the Bible simply too unacceptable to embrace. Therefore, such problematic passages are either lightly skipped over, ignored altogether, or discarded as no longer being applicable to God's people. Or, as sometimes happen, the scriptures are twisted around to make them day something never intended by God, but approved of by men. Ah, but this brings full circle, back to the doctrines created by and for men.

[Timmy]

Hmmm Interesting question. Personally, I can't think of any man-made (authored by men) religious teaching that I would care to observe in lieu of, or incorporate into those doctrines authored by God. For my own reasons see Deu 4:2; 12:32)

Now, if anyone has a list of man-made (non-biblical) doctrines that they follow, and would like to share, I would certainly be interested in reviewing them.

Of course Timmy, if you are referring to the teaching of the world of God by men, that is an entirely different subject. Yet, even there, many teachers teach about the word of God, and seldom actually teach the word of God, as He gave it and intended for it to be understood and implemented in one's life.

The major problem in most of today's churches is we have the habit of lifting a sentence or two out of the Bible, even a partial sentence, and giving a 45 minute discourse of what the teacher thinks it should mean (a personal commentary generally not open to question or general discussion). Where we have ten teachers, we can expect to have at least 5-7 different interpretations and/or life applications, maybe even ten. And, yet we continue to wonder why we can't seem to achieve any degree of spiritual unity among the assemblies.

My personal opinion is that most teachers (and church goers), find much of the Bible simply too unacceptable to embrace. Therefore, such problematic passages are either lightly skipped over, ignored altogether, or discarded as no longer being applicable to God's people. Or, as sometimes happen, the scriptures are twisted around to make them day something never intended by God, but approved of by men. Ah, but this brings full circle, back to the doctrines created by and for men.

Here's a doctrine of man that I had in mind (if it's a doctrine of God, please show me):

"Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, I & II Samuel, I & II Kings, I & II Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, I & II Corinthians, Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, I & II Thessalonians, I & II Timothy, Titus, Philemon, Hebrews, James, I & II Peter, I II & III John, Jude, and Revelation are the Bible." ;)

[A.W. Bowman]

Here's a doctrine of man that I had in mind (if it's a doctrine of God, please show me):

The simple answer is found in 2 Timothy 3:16-17. The more detailed answer is in the detailed study of your references, Genesis through Revelation. However, if you dismiss the scriptures as being the works (teaching) of men, which reduces the scriptures to works by men and for men, then you are left free to do with them as you wish. Even so, I will not belabor the point with you.

[Timmy]

The simple answer is found in 2 Timothy 3:16-17. The more detailed answer is in the detailed study of your references, Genesis through Revelation. However, if you dismiss the scriptures as being the works (teaching) of men, which reduces the scriptures to works by men and for men, then you are left free to do with them as you wish. Even so, I will not belabor the point with you.

I didn't say the scriptures themselves were works of men. I said it was the choice of which scriptures were inspired by God. The list. A study of the references might mislead one into thinking The Book of Enoch should be included. Martin Luther wasn't happy with James making the cut.

Of course, different "men" teach different lists. Should we take a vote among all believers? ;)

[A.W. Bowman]

Of course, different "men" teach different lists. Should we take a vote among all believers? ;)

Thank you. That is part of the problem with men manipulating scripture for their own purposes.

[Aquila]

Thank you. That is part of the problem with men manipulating scripture for their own purposes.

I think that is the essence of legalism.

We shouldn't have a standard of lists. We should simply immulate Jesus. Jesus alone should be our standard. We should seek a oneness with Christ that is so pervasive to our being that Jesus Himself lives and breathes in us. Our very shadows should have nail scarred hands.

Acts 5:15
Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.

[Amanah]

Paul said follow me as I follow Christ, and then he wrote letters to define discipleship.

[Aquila]

Paul said follow me as I follow Christ, and then he wrote letters to define discipleship.

In other words, as Paul saught to immulate Jesus, we too should follow Paul's example and immulate Jesus. The epistles largely addressed issues and concerns facing the first century church.

Or, are you saying we should seek to be like Paul...and leave immulating Jesus entirely up to Paul?

You'll notice that there is a mindset that always seeks to set Jesus on the sidelines and seek what is readily seen as attainable in the flesh. Our destiny isn't to be conformed into the image of Paul... but rather the Father's will is that we be conformed into the image of Jesus. To merely seek to immulate Paul, or anything other than Jesus Himself, is dangerously close to idolatry... even if well intentioned.

Maybe I misunderstood you, but those are the thoughts I had regarding your post. Love you sis.

[TGBTG]

In other words, as Paul saught to immulate Jesus, we too should follow Paul's example and immulate Jesus. The epistles largely addressed issues and concerns facing the first century church.

Or, are you saying we should seek to be like Paul...and leave immulating Jesus entirely up to Paul?

You'll notice that there is a mindset that always seeks to set Jesus on the sidelines and seek what is readily seen as attainable in the flesh. Our destiny isn't to be conformed into the image of Paul... but rather the Father's will is that we be conformed into the image of Jesus. To merely seek to immulate Paul, or anything other than Jesus Himself, is dangerously close to idolatry... even if well intentioned.

Maybe I misunderstood you, but those are the thoughts I had regarding your post. Love you sis.

I believe your first point is what she meant.

[Amanah]

I believe that without reading the bible, we would not know how to emulate Jesus.

[Aquila]

I believe that without reading the bible, we would not know how to emulate Jesus.

That, I can agree with. The teachings of Scripture are focused on one thing... being identified with Jesus. NT Epistles are like caselaw. They show how the early church applied this principle. With Spirit led guidance we can extrapolate those principles into modern times. For example, Paul spoke to the Corinthians about head coverings and implied that women were immodest if they didn't wear them during worship. Today, while we don't wear head coverings, we should focus on what is modest with regards to dress, especially when gathered for worship.

[Timmy]

Thank you. That is part of the problem with men manipulating scripture for their own purposes.

:blink

[Amanah]

This is not my favorite thread, not sure why though.

[Timmy]

This is not my favorite thread, not sure why though.

Because this thread (this is a link) (http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=25404) is your favorite? :D

[Timmy]

:blink

I should probably expound. :lol

I suppose what you said about men manipulating scripture is directed at those men who chose a different canon from the one you use? And that the ones who did arrive at the famous 66-book canon that (I'm pretty sure) Oneness Pentecostals and a lot of other Protestants consider to be "The Bible" did not "manipulate scripture for their own purposes"?

[Sandy]

Wow. Good question.

I cannot answer for anyone else at all, except myself.

I am a Christian today even though I do not remember ever not having been taught that Jesus Christ was our Lord and Savior by my parents as well as many others. I still wandered into some things that nobody should wander into because even thought I was taught these thing, I really had no real reason later in life to believe them. And began a walk of my own regarding spiritual issues, is the best I can describe it.

But then one day, during a time when my Dad was in the hospital, my visiting him there, I saw a miraculous healing take place by another man that was in the next bed to him. That seemed to be in terrible pain one minute, and suddenly after this fellow came in and began ministering to him in Spanish, my not having a clue what they were saying at all. But suddenly this dude jumps out of bed, no longer in pain anymore, beginning to jump up and down saying "I am Healed" over and over again, very loudly. So loud that some nurses came running in finally to find out what all the yelling was about. He telling them the same thing, as well as saying I want to go home. The nurses telling him he will have to wait until tomorrow morning when the doctor comes in, he being the only one that can release him. anyway, the next day when we got to the hospital, he was gone. Of course, that did not cause me to become a believer about who Jesus Christ was. But certainly did have an affect on me, none the less plus finding him indeed gone, no longer laying in the bed moaning and groaning anymore.

Then the next day, while everyone was praying for and with my Dad was the thing that finally convinced me that Jesus Christ was Lord and Savior finally. Because during the time they were all praying, I was watching, even though they told every one to close there eyes then, no way was I going to close my eyes at all. And suddenly in came Jesus Christ into that room, put his hands on my dads shoulders, then left. And that was when I knew for sure who He was. And also was when I began to be determined to find out about all of this, my beginning to follow HIM. As some would say, that was the day I did an about face completely almost. Laying down from then on the cultish beliefs I had been into before. Somehow, and don't ask me how, I knew they were not the truth at all anymore. And this happened somewhere around 40 years ago, and have not turned back to follow another ever since. Didn't become perfect of course. And don't believe I am still finished by a long shot in that department either. Because if I was complete, I just don't beleive I would be here still sharing this with others today at all. But as Paul said in Phil. 3:
14: I PRESS ON TOWARD THE MARK OF THE HIGH CALLING IN CHRIST JESUS.

And about perfection, be sure and read what he said before that scripture I quoted, as well as after with understanding as to how one is not yet perfected yet, but still can be prefect at the same time. And if you don't understand, ask the Lord. And if you do not know Him, but want to, then ask HIM to reveal Himself to you in some way or another so that you can know who he is. Because as I recall back then, that was what I was asking HIM about back then. Well close anyway. Then wait for Him to answer of course. As sometimes we do have to wait, just as Is. said in Is. 40:31.

:christmascaroling

[A.W. Bowman]

Love it Sandy - just love it!

[Sign Seeker]

Utilitarian Christianity, or are you ready to be a martyr?

One of the subject areas I am investigating for possible inclusion in a book I am researching involves the motivation people have for becoming a Christian – and ultimately, why one would want to continue to be identified as a Christian even if it meant total deprivation or even death?

This is a particularly difficult subject to address because it is so hard to get honest answers to the various questions that arise from confronting one’s self, Especially in a serious self examinations concerning what one believes and why – and how well one measures up to the religious standards they use to judge others. Most forks are just not willing to publicly share this level of intimacy. And - that is most likely a good idea. Therefore -

This is meant to be a rhetorical question and not to be answered in an open forum.

----------------------

This question does not come up very often and certainly not in an overt confrontation, but how would you answer the question, “Why are you a Christian?”

For example, what do you expect to get out of being identified as a Christian? What is your personal pay-off? Can you give three foundational reasons (justifications) for holding to your form of the Christian religion? Why is your form of Christianity better than someone else’s? And, why is your religion better than every other non-Christian form, or type of religion?

To know (being able to identify and explain) what you believe and why, goes a long way toward establishing one’s testimony and authenticity in the eyes of others.

Being able to mound a credible challenge to what you profess to believe in gives you the ability to effectively meet the challenges (arguments) that others will confront you with. Non-personal responses to challenges such as, “I believe in (this or that) because the Bible says so.”, will not win many converts to Christ. After all, most non-Christians don’t think ‘your Bible’ has much value anyway, and certainly has no authority in their lives.

So, the final question remains: Why are you a Christian?

A follow up question would be, “Are you true to your professed religious beliefs, i.e. do you live up to, and perform all of the duties and responsibilities that your religion requires of you?” If you had to judge yourself as God will judge you, how do you measure up, today?

:grampa
I think your question is one that we all should ask ourselves and be able to answer without any reservations based on the foundation of Gods holy word; if this is where you place your faith. You will face judgement and "it is coming" and you best be ready with works to back it up. We all "believe in something" so what is our true color? First, I believe the bible to be the absolute truth, no doubts! Second in believing this my reason for being a Christian is that there is an absolute confidence that the power and blessings of God are real and salvation is real. Third, would I die for this doctrine? I feel that if I would waver in this decision then I am unworthy of the reward of my previous statements. According to my understanding of Gods word we can burn now or burn later but we will burn at one time or the other. The burning now would be by the Holy Ghost and fire that purifies the soul. This will only happen when you have not decided but committed your soul to Jesus and not only talk the talk but walk the walk. It's truly a matter of the heart and soul as to what master you will serve!

[A.W. Bowman]

As I have noted, I have asked this same question across several on-line communities. The responses have been enlightening and also somewhat disturbing - even though I urged folks to take this as a self examination. I should be ready to post my initial findings after the new year.

Should I continue on and actually write a book on modern church doctrines/dogma, this exercise will be included. Of course, no names or identifiable comments or remarks will be used.

[KeptByTheWord]

Wow. Good question.

I cannot answer for anyone else at all, except myself.

I am a Christian today even though I do not remember ever not having been taught that Jesus Christ was our Lord and Savior by my parents as well as many others. I still wandered into some things that nobody should wander into because even thought I was taught these thing, I really had no real reason later in life to believe them. And began a walk of my own regarding spiritual issues, is the best I can describe it.

But then one day, during a time when my Dad was in the hospital, my visiting him there, I saw a miraculous healing take place by another man that was in the next bed to him. That seemed to be in terrible pain one minute, and suddenly after this fellow came in and began ministering to him in Spanish, my not having a clue what they were saying at all. But suddenly this dude jumps out of bed, no longer in pain anymore, beginning to jump up and down saying "I am Healed" over and over again, very loudly. So loud that some nurses came running in finally to find out what all the yelling was about. He telling them the same thing, as well as saying I want to go home. The nurses telling him he will have to wait until tomorrow morning when the doctor comes in, he being the only one that can release him. anyway, the next day when we got to the hospital, he was gone. Of course, that did not cause me to become a believer about who Jesus Christ was. But certainly did have an affect on me, none the less plus finding him indeed gone, no longer laying in the bed moaning and groaning anymore.

Then the next day, while everyone was praying for and with my Dad was the thing that finally convinced me that Jesus Christ was Lord and Savior finally. Because during the time they were all praying, I was watching, even though they told every one to close there eyes then, no way was I going to close my eyes at all. And suddenly in came Jesus Christ into that room, put his hands on my dads shoulders, then left. And that was when I knew for sure who He was. And also was when I began to be determined to find out about all of this, my beginning to follow HIM. As some would say, that was the day I did an about face completely almost. Laying down from then on the cultish beliefs I had been into before. Somehow, and don't ask me how, I knew they were not the truth at all anymore. And this happened somewhere around 40 years ago, and have not turned back to follow another ever since. Didn't become perfect of course. And don't believe I am still finished by a long shot in that department either. Because if I was complete, I just don't beleive I would be here still sharing this with others today at all. But as Paul said in Phil. 3:
14: I PRESS ON TOWARD THE MARK OF THE HIGH CALLING IN CHRIST JESUS.

And about perfection, be sure and read what he said before that scripture I quoted, as well as after with understanding as to how one is not yet perfected yet, but still can be prefect at the same time. And if you don't understand, ask the Lord. And if you do not know Him, but want to, then ask HIM to reveal Himself to you in some way or another so that you can know who he is. Because as I recall back then, that was what I was asking HIM about back then. Well close anyway. Then wait for Him to answer of course. As sometimes we do have to wait, just as Is. said in Is. 40:31.

:christmascaroling

What a great testimony!!!

[KeptByTheWord]

As I have noted, I have asked this same question across several on-line communities. The responses have been enlightening and also somewhat disturbing - even though I urged folks to take this as a self examination. I should be ready to post my initial findings after the new year.

Should I continue on and actually write a book on modern church doctrines/dogma, this exercise will be included. Of course, no names or identifiable comments or remarks will be used.

I don't know if you are still looking for responses to this thread, but thought I would revive it... would be interested in hearing the conclusion of the matter when you finish writing it too ...

As to my answer of this deep question, I have to say this. When you search for God with your mind, all you usually end up with are questions, questions, and more questions. The answers are elusive and the questions get bigger. Just read the book of Job!! There was a man who asked a lot of questions, and got very, very few answers. And the answers he got, he didn't really like.

But in the end, Job said Job 42:1-5 1 Then Job answered the LORD, and said, 2 I know that thou canst do every [thing], and [that] no thought can be withholden from thee.
3 Who [is] he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.
4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
6 Wherefore I abhor [myself], and repent in dust and ashes.


So, you can search for God with your mind, and ask all the questions, read all the books, check into all the different religions, dogmas, and doctrine, but nothing, absolutely nothing can compare, to searching after God with your heart.

Many people come to God at the lowest point in their lives, when they realized they have tried every other option, and turn to God in complete desperation. Why is that? Because it is not man's nature to give up control of his life to anyone or anything, including God, willingly.

But when we, the created ones, come face to face with our Creator,perhaps in our darkest nights... as Job did... we realize all our questions are pointless, because ... He is God. He created me, you, and everyone and everything else. He knows us better than we know ourselves. And God doesn't need me... at all. But I NEED HIM!

Realization of that desperate need in each and every human heart will lead one to God, if one is willing to be honest with themselves. There is a hole, I believe, in every human heart, a huge void, that is aching to be filled with all the fullness God has to offer, but many times it is filled with everything and anything but God.

If anyone were to say to me, Why are you a christian, i would answer Because I need Jesus. He completes me. His work on Calvary through my faith in that work, makes life worth living now. I am not waiting for eternity to live, I am truly alive NOW.