View Full Version : What the World Sees as Apostolic
I was speaking to a religious person today and the topic came up about what the difference is between apostolic and pentecostal. I asked her what she though apostolic meant and she ran down this list....
1. Dresses
2. Uncut Hair
3. No make-up
4. No television
She equates apostolics with legalism. She doesn't equate an apostolic as being a spirit filled believer who operates in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost.
She reinforces what a vast majority of people think about apostolics. There are some who are intellectually dishonest and would want to question the intelligence of this person, but she is a college graduate, has owned a business, and is a very active member of her church.
Can anyone explain again what legalism has to do with the '' apostle's doctrine''? The world isn't buying it one bit.
FRINGE_NUTTER
05-18-2007, 07:03 PM
See my response in the thread for 2 methods of evaluating holiness in Apostolic Conservative Churches for more on this subject!
Praxeas
05-18-2007, 07:06 PM
I was speaking to a religious person today and the topic came up about what the difference is between apostolic and pentecostal. I asked her what she though apostolic meant and she ran down this list....
1. Dresses
2. Uncut Hair
3. No make-up
4. No television
She equates apostolics with legalism. She doesn't equate an apostolic as being a spirit filled believer who operates in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost.
She reinforces what a vast majority of people think about apostolics. There are some who are intellectually dishonest and would want to question the intelligence of this person, but she is a college graduate, has owned a business, and is a very active member of her church.
Can anyone explain again what legalism has to do with the '' apostle's doctrine''? The world isn't buying it one bit.
She represents the whole world?
Apostolic has three main meaings. One is Apostolic succession via the RCC
another is a group that believes in the gifts and offices of Apostles are still for us today
And the last, which is Oneness Pentecostals, are those that believe in strictly adhering to the teachings and practices of the Apostles when it comes to doctrines of salvation and the godhead. Others within that group might add standards of dress to it.
There may be other definitions that I am not aware of
Old Paths
05-18-2007, 07:16 PM
Thank God!
Smart lady.
She saw separation from the world.
Thank God!
Smart lady.
She saw separation from the world.
The Taliban and Amish are "separated" in a similar fashion .... this is not what Jesus said would tell the world that we are his disciples ....
Old Paths
05-18-2007, 07:19 PM
She was able to recognize separation from the world.
Praise the Lord someone has let their light shine!
Matt 5:16
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
KJV
She was able to recognize separation from the world.
Praise the Lord someone has let their light shine!
Matt 5:16
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
KJV
Good works = long skirts .... Man!!!!... the Word can be so cryptic sometimes.
Old Paths
05-18-2007, 07:23 PM
Good works = long skirts .... Man!!!!... the Word can be so cryptic sometimes.
2 Cor 4:3-4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
KJV
Rhoni
05-18-2007, 07:23 PM
Good works = long skirts .... Man!!!!... the Word can be so cryptic sometimes.
:killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme
2 Cor 4:3-4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
KJV
More twisting of scripture ... one would have to now accept that your man-made standards are THE GOSPEL ....
its become more and more clear that a segment of the Apostolic community ... led by men of the cloth ... do not know what the Gospel really is .....
PoorWiddleMe
05-18-2007, 08:07 PM
I know this was from a movie and that love in that movie didn't mean the kind of love God wants us to have BUT:
What the World needs now is LOVE, Sweet Love - no, not just for some but for every, every, everyone.
:musicnotes THE WORLD NEEDS TO SEE LOVE IN ACTION - not long dresses, long sleeves, and a list of rules a mile long! :musicnotes
I'm doubt she saw it as being "separate" from the world. She didn't mention things trues christians exhibit. Love, peace, gentleness, goodness, meeknes...ect....
She was able to recognize separation from the world.
Praise the Lord someone has let their light shine!
Matt 5:16
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
KJV
CupCake
05-18-2007, 10:39 PM
I was speaking to a religious person today and the topic came up about what the difference is between apostolic and pentecostal. I asked her what she though apostolic meant and she ran down this list....
1. Dresses
2. Uncut Hair
3. No make-up
4. No television
She equates apostolics with legalism. She doesn't equate an apostolic as being a spirit filled believer who operates in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost.
She reinforces what a vast majority of people think about apostolics. There are some who are intellectually dishonest and would want to question the intelligence of this person, but she is a college graduate, has owned a business, and is a very active member of her church.
Can anyone explain again what legalism has to do with the '' apostle's doctrine''? The world isn't buying it one bit.
Hmmm, before I was in the church I never thought about Apostolic's, didn't see any different in them, no light busting fourth or feeling of God, nothing. . But I have run into a few Amish who shined like a light from within~.
berkeley
05-18-2007, 11:18 PM
Hmmm, before I was in the church I never thought about Apostolic's, didn't see any different in them, no light busting fourth or feeling of God, nothing. . But I have run into a few Amish who shined like a light from within~.
Before I was in church I was completely turned off to those hypocrites!! Didn't know any guys that attended.. only the girls stood out! They were always so evil, cussing and stuff. haha.:heeheehee
Hoovie
05-18-2007, 11:20 PM
The Taliban and Amish are "separated" in a similar fashion .... this is not what Jesus said would tell the world that we are his disciples ....
Don't be trash'in us Amish and lump'in us with the Taliban...
berkeley
05-18-2007, 11:21 PM
Don't be trash'in us Amish and lump'in us with the Taliban...
You're not real Amish..
Hoovie
05-18-2007, 11:22 PM
You're not real Amish..
My Avatar does not lie!
berkeley
05-18-2007, 11:24 PM
My Avatar does not lie!
some here are "urban amish" ...look that up...
CupCake
05-18-2007, 11:26 PM
Before I was in church I was completely turned off to those hypocrites!! Didn't know any guys that attended.. only the girls stood out! They were always so evil, cussing and stuff. haha.:heeheehee
The folks who brought us in, I really didn't see anything different about them, in fact I though husband was pushy and loud. The wife was fishing in a dress wearing rubber boots, I didn't think anything about it. I knew many women who wore dresses even while camping, my own sister wear a dress everyday has very long hair, etc and she never step foot into a Apostolic church. I never related it to being set apart, still don't!
Hoovie
05-18-2007, 11:26 PM
some here are "urban amish" ...look that up...
My first language is German (PA Dutch) I spent the first 16 years of my life in a buggy behind a horse. I dream in Amish. What esle do you want?
berkeley
05-18-2007, 11:27 PM
My first language is German (PA Dutch) I spent the first 16 years of my life in a buggy behind a horse. I dream in Amish. What esle do you want?
you didn't look it up...
CupCake
05-18-2007, 11:36 PM
My first language is German (PA Dutch) I spent the first 16 years of my life in a buggy behind a horse. I dream in Amish. What esle do you want?
Cool~ We live next to the Amish and I must say I really enjoy their singing. They welcome everyone to the sing along. The Bible teaching another deal it's done in German, so I be lost. They speak Pennsylvania Dutch among themselves.
Hoovie
05-19-2007, 12:16 AM
you didn't look it up...
1. urban amish
n. Someone who has none of the technological devices that have become a part of our daily lives, such as television, microwave, gaming platform or home computer.
berkeley
05-19-2007, 12:25 AM
1. urban amish
n. Someone who has none of the technological devices that have become a part of our daily lives, such as television, microwave, gaming platform or home computer.
would some ultra cons be pseudo-urban amish?
Hoovie
05-19-2007, 12:27 AM
would some ultra cons be pseudo-urban amish?
Close but no Cigar. I have yet to see them shun microwaves...
berkeley
05-19-2007, 12:32 AM
Close but no Cigar. I have yet to see them shun microwaves...
television... only need one to qualify as pseudo.. or quasi... your choice!!
The Bible calls us to be separated, not isolated.
A clarification seems to be in order. The lady I work with does not equate clothesline doctrine with apostolics. She sees apostolics as the standard bearer of a dress code.
Brother Strange
05-19-2007, 05:45 AM
The Bible calls us to be separated, not isolated.
Would you call scriptural separation a condition of the spiritual (inward) man or the physical (outward) body/man?
Coonskinner
05-19-2007, 05:57 AM
More twisting of scripture ... one would have to now accept that your man-made standards are THE GOSPEL ....
its become more and more clear that a segment of the Apostolic community ... led by men of the cloth ... do not know what the Gospel really is .....
Come on.
The Gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
I don't know any Apostolic preacher who doesn't know that.
Coonskinner
05-19-2007, 06:04 AM
I wonder what people in the "world" saw as the Tabernacle?
Badger skins dyes red.
The gold was on the inside.
The prophet said of the Messiah, "He hath no form nor comeliness, and when ye shall see him, there is no beauty that ye should desire him."
Now, holiness is beautiful to me. I could give you just as many anecdotes of people who speak admiringly of our ladies and their standards. But neither my anecdotes nor yours really matter.
Following the principles of the Scripture is what matters, regardless of what the world and its unregenerate children think.
The natural man doesn't comprehend spiritual things. He isn't able to.
You start trying to establish doctrine and practice based on what the world finds appealing, and you will become totally apostate faster than you can say "mini-skirt."
Hoovie
05-19-2007, 06:06 AM
I wonder what people in the "world" saw as the Tabernacle?
Badger skins dyes red.
The gold was on the inside.
The prophet said of the Messiah, "He hath no form nor comeliness, and when ye shall see him, there is no beauty that ye should desire him."
Now, holiness is beautiful to me. I could give you just as many anecdotes of people who speak admiringly of our ladies and their standards. But neither my anecdotes nor yours really matter.
Following the principles of the Scripture is what matters, regardless of what the world and its unregenerate children think.
The natural man doesn't comprehend spiritual things. He isn't able to.
You start trying to establish doctrine and practice based on what the world finds appealing, and you will become totally apostate faster than you can say "mini-skirt."
:killinme
Sheltiedad
05-19-2007, 06:06 AM
I have to admit, my whole life when I have tried to explain the relatively obscure religion that I was raised in, I do not see a glimmer of recognition until I say, "you know, the one where the women only wear dresses, don't cut their hair, and don't wear make-up or jewelry"... at that time they usually go, "Oh, now I know the one you are talking about, I think one of those ladies works down the hall from me"...
If they HAVE heard of Pentecostals, they think you are Assembly of God.
I'm sure this means something but I'm not sure what... (actually I am but can't decide which path to take. lol)... I'm sure that those who only hang out with other Pentecostals will believe I am lying or be shocked to know that the majority of people do not even know what a Pentecostal is, let alone a Oneness Pentecostal.
Brother Strange
05-19-2007, 07:37 AM
I am distressed to think that anyone would immediately think of how a person looked outwardly when their attention is called to the people of God...the Apostolic faith.
Jesus did not tell us to let the world see how long your dress is or how naked is your ring finger. He did not tell to let the world see the women's long hair or even truly Godly modesty, though it is integral to being a christian.
The thing that Jesus wanted the world to see in us is a light as a city set upon a hill by our GOOD WORKS.
Let your light shine before men that they might see you GOOD WORKS and glorify your father which is in heaven. It is a life of WORKS moved by the heat of love and the light of the cross that will lift up Jesus giving glory to our heavenly father.
If we are so deceived by our latter day Apostolic doctrine as to think that our GOOD WORKS is our manner of adornment, we are then deceived by our own doctrine. Yet, I've lived long enough to see it.
Daily, I strive to do some GOOD WORK. That is letting my light shine though there is nothing about my outward adornment that would distinguish me from any other silver haired man in a business suit. In doing a GOOD WORK yesterday brought joy to my heart though it was not a great monumental work of reknown. It was something rather small, but quite significant. It made a difference. It was a GOOD work.
Daily we can seek to serve the Lord in our GOOD works, letting our light shine before men without trying to impress the world with our ostentatious outward adornment. Our ultra-conservative adornment very often glorifies no one except the one so adorned among others of like mind. This is "herd" or what is mass deception.
Let us reposition our emphasis upon the intent of the scriptures in giving glory to God by our good works rather than what has become Apostolic PRIDE. Daily we can do something for Jesus in very insignificant ways that may not be so earthshaking but it draws a heavenly smile anyway, as the light berfore men shines out.
I heard a Prophet of the Lord sing as he strumed his guitar and tears flowing down his face, the light shining upon him...
I wonder have I done my best for Jesus?
How many are the souls that I've lifted?
How many are the chains that I've broken too?
I wonder have I done my best for Jesus
He has done his very, very best for me
Oh my! I see the Apostolic Church (as we know it) so far adrift and seems to be drifting further and further away upon a sea of no return...without chart, compass, sail or rudder...just drifting.
berkeley
05-19-2007, 07:40 AM
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Come on.
The Gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
I don't know any Apostolic preacher who doesn't know that.
CS,
OP used a verse about the gospel being hid in context to a conversation about the extrabiblical doctrine of dress standards ... perhaps your indignation and vexation should be directed at him ...
I'm sure your reminder of what the Gospel is ... will serve OP well.
Old Paths
05-19-2007, 08:45 AM
Oh I know what the Gospel is.
I have lived the Gospel and preached the Gospel all of my life,but having dealt with them for a life time, I also know how spiritually blinded people think.
Oh I know what the Gospel is.
I have lived the Gospel and preached the Gospel all of my life,but having dealt with them for a life time, I also know how spiritually blinded people think.
Perhaps you should then be more responsible when hurling scripture javelins. :laffatu :largehalo
Old Paths
05-19-2007, 08:55 AM
Perhaps you should then be more responsible when hurling scripture javelins. :laffatu :largehalo
HI Danny isn't it a wonderful Saturday?
The sky is blue.
The birds in the backyard are singing.
And not a bad attitude any where near my place.
Now you have a great weekend.
God is Good.
:D
You start trying to establish doctrine and practice based on what the world finds appealing, and you will become totally apostate faster than you can say "mini-skirt."Excellent thought, CS!!
And that is exactly what too many "Apostolics" do today-- they let the criticism of the world (which we know is mostly born out of ignorance and/or rebellion) bring into question if "we" are really right about this separation thing.
Just because some educated, religious woman doesn't understand what Apostolic means, personally and scripturally, and just because she has come up with a definition based (most likely) on her refusal to ever adhere to such separation doesn't mean we are wrong. Ya' ever think SHE is wrong?
Disclaimer: I'm referring strictly to outward standards, as this is what the lady focused on. She is inwardly still not holy, so why would I (we) expect her to have anything but a skewed perception of what Apostolic is?
Old Paths
05-19-2007, 08:59 AM
Excellent thought, CS!!
And that is exactly what too many "Apostolics" do today-- they let the criticism of the world (which we know is mostly born out of ignorance and/or rebellion) bring into question if "we" are really right about this separation thing.
Just because some educated woman doesn't understand what Apostolic means, personally and scripturally, and just because she has come up with a definition based (most likely) on her refusal to ever adhere to such separation doesn't mean we are wrong. Ya' ever think SHE is wrong?
Disclaimer: I'm referring strictly to outward standards, as this is what the lady focused on. She is inwardly still not holy, so why would I (we) expect her to have anything but a skewed perception of what Apostolic is?
Very good and applies to MANY.
HI Danny isn't it a wonderful Saturday?
The sky is blue.
The birds in the backyard are singing.
And not a bad attitude any where near my place.
Now you have a great weekend.
God is Good.
:D
It's a great day .... OP
He's GOOD ALL THE TIME ... my peninsular brother ....
It's gonna be a bright and sunny day ....
Stay cool.
Dan
StillStanding
05-19-2007, 09:02 AM
When I think of the Amish people, I don't think about how spiritual and close to God they are. I see them as the folks that can't drive a car, and live like folks did in the 1700-1800s because of their religious beliefs.
I believe that is also how most outsiders also think of conservative Oneness Apostolics. They look at them as folks that can't do this and that because of their strict religious beliefs. You're wrong if you think the world puts you on a spiritual pedestal.
When I think of the Amish people, I don't think about how spiritual and close to God they are. I see them as the folks that can't drive a car, and live like folks did in the 1700-1800s because of their religious beliefs.
I believe that is also how most outsiders also think of conservative Oneness Apostolics. They look at them as folks that can't do this and that because of their strict religious beliefs. You're wrong if you think the world puts you on a spiritual pedestal.But, who cares what the world thinks.......IF.......what you live is scriptural and thus done to bring HIM glory??
That was the point of my last post. Too many Apostolics are giving in to the pressure of being "accepted" by the world, when that world doesn't have a clue why we live the way we do.
Do you think Paul REALLY cared what the world thought of him?
berkeley
05-19-2007, 09:08 AM
there are some posts that I would like to address.. but my lamp is runnin' low on oil.. and I am going to go to bed soon.. .so I will just say this, and if you think I said it to you then I probably did..
POPPYCOCK!!! and MALARKEY!!!
berkeley
05-19-2007, 09:09 AM
But, who cares what the world thinks.......IF.......what you live is scriptural and thus done to bring HIM glory??
That was the point of my last post. Too many Apostolics are giving in to the pressure of being "accepted" by the world, when that world doesn't have a clue why we live the way we do.
Do you think Paul REALLY cared what the world thought of him?
Ya know, many Apostolics don't even know why they believe what they do! It's not about being "accepted" by the world... but don't put a yoke on the people that isn't theirs to carry!
Ya know, many Apostolics don't even know why they believe what they do! It's not about being "accepted" by the world... but don't put a yoke on the people that isn't theirs to carry!
A good pastor friend recently declared to me ... similar words ... he's decided to make his church non-denominational while stile keeping his credentials ... He said: Why should they have to carry this unnecessary yoke. I'll do it.
Ya know, many Apostolics don't even know why they believe what they do! I'm not talking about "them", Berk. I'm talking about the ones, as I mentioned in my last post, who know why they do it -- because it's scriptural and thus pleases to the Lord.
It's not about being "accepted" by the world...Sure seems like the original post on this thread was all about caring what an educated, religious woman thought.
but don't put a yoke on the people that isn't theirs to carry! Don't divert the topic. I said ZERO about any yoke. All I mentioned was scriptural separation, which focuses in this thread on the outward appearance of an Apostolic.
berkeley
05-19-2007, 09:13 AM
A good pastor friend recently declared to me ... similar words ... he's decided to make his church non-denominational while stile keep his credentials ... He said: Why should they have to carry this unnecessary yoke. I'll do it.
oh boy!!! I can hear it now!!! "backslider" "rep-row-bait" "harry-tick"
StillStanding
05-19-2007, 09:17 AM
But, who cares what the world thinks.......IF.......what you live is scriptural and thus done to bring HIM glory??
That was the point of my last post. Too many Apostolics are giving in to the pressure of being "accepted" by the world, when that world doesn't have a clue why we live the way we do.
Do you think Paul REALLY cared what the world thought of him?
If the purpose is to be "seperate" from the given culture by their ultra-conservative attire, they are succeeding. If the purpose is to be "seperate" by showing love and having a Godly spirit and glow about them, they may or may not be succeeding.
If the purpose is to be "seperate" from the given culture by their ultra-conservative attire, they are succeeding. If the purpose is to be "seperate" by showing love and having a Godly spirit and glow about them, they may or may not be succeeding.I guess it all depends on who "they" is, Pianoman.
I know people, in my church, other local churches, on CAF, on another forum and on here, who have got it right. Just because some (read: they) don't doesn't mean it's not right. The lady in question in this thread apparently hasn't met anyone who has got it right. I pray she does.
Sheltiedad
05-19-2007, 09:20 AM
Excellent thought, CS!!
And that is exactly what too many "Apostolics" do today-- they let the criticism of the world (which we know is mostly born out of ignorance and/or rebellion) bring into question if "we" are really right about this separation thing.
Just because some educated, religious woman doesn't understand what Apostolic means, personally and scripturally, and just because she has come up with a definition based (most likely) on her refusal to ever adhere to such separation doesn't mean we are wrong. Ya' ever think SHE is wrong?
Disclaimer: I'm referring strictly to outward standards, as this is what the lady focused on. She is inwardly still not holy, so why would I (we) expect her to have anything but a skewed perception of what Apostolic is?
1. But if people don't even know what Pentecostals stand for, other than their outward appearance (after 2000 years of continuous oneness Apostolic preaching), then hasn't something gone wrong somewhere? Especially if the "mission" is to bring the whole gospel to the whole world.
2. And we know that criticism is born of ignorance and rebellion? To address ignorance, see my point number 1 above. To adress rebellion... how can you rebel against something that you do not even know exists?
1. But if people don't even know what Pentecostals stand for, other than their outward appearance (after 2000 years of continuous oneness Apostolic preaching, then hasn't something gone wrong somewhere? Especially if the "mission" is to bring the whole gospel to the whole world.
2. And we know that criticism is born of ignorance and rebellion? To address ignorance, see my point number 1 above. To adress rebellion... how can you rebel against something that you do not even know exists?Ignornace on their part is partly our responsibility, yes.
Rebellion? I have someone very close to me who clearly rebels against the outward standards that my pastor teaches. These teachings are well known to this person. They've repeatedly said that they will NOT adhere to those teachings.
That is rebellion and ignorance. I can only help them with one of those problems.
Sheltiedad
05-19-2007, 09:39 AM
I thought we were talking about the world, not backsliders... I don't even fit in with the backsliders so I don't know what I am. lol.
Whole Hearted
05-19-2007, 10:20 AM
I wonder what people in the "world" saw as the Tabernacle?
Badger skins dyes red.
The gold was on the inside.
The prophet said of the Messiah, "He hath no form nor comeliness, and when ye shall see him, there is no beauty that ye should desire him."
Now, holiness is beautiful to me. I could give you just as many anecdotes of people who speak admiringly of our ladies and their standards. But neither my anecdotes nor yours really matter.
Following the principles of the Scripture is what matters, regardless of what the world and its unregenerate children think.
The natural man doesn't comprehend spiritual things. He isn't able to.
You start trying to establish doctrine and practice based on what the world finds appealing, and you will become totally apostate faster than you can say "mini-skirt."
:thumbsup
I wonder what people in the "world" saw as the Tabernacle?
Badger skins dyes red.
The gold was on the inside.
I have to assume you are speaking of the Tabernacle of Moses ... here CS ....
I wonder how many in the "world" came in to plain sight of this tabernacle in the middle of the wilderness and surrounded by the tribes of Israel ?? How many lost, post-conquest, were there in Gilgal, Shiloh, Nob, and Gibeon .... who knows?
... it seems to me that it was God's people, on a daily basis, who got the scenic view of Badger skins dyed red ..... and not the "lost".
Israel's enemies could care less about the badger skins .... they knew of the gold inside and it was this ...they sought to plunder.
The Tabernacle of David ... may have been a better example of "moderation" because of it's simplicity ... it was not an eyesore ... and I'm sure it blended in ....
.... moderation is not a mark of isolation ... or shouldn't be a medal of superior spirituality .... nor a trophy of stark distinction.
Conner (1976:108) shares the following insight about the Tabernacle of David: “The Tabernacle was simply a Tent, pitched in Jerusalem, in Mt. Zion. It was there until the erection of the Temple of Solomon. It certainly could not be compared with the Tent or Tabernacle of Moses and its three places as far as structure was concerned. The very fact that David’s Tabernacle was simply a Tent attested to the truth that its construction was temporary and transitional. It was not the ultimate as a structure. That which was established in it was incorporated in the Temple order. Both the revelation of the Tabernacle of David and the Temple of Solomon had been given to King David”
It is this Tabernacle ... one that worshiped God in Spirit and in Truth ... that is promised to be restored.
Truly Blessed
05-19-2007, 10:47 AM
Here in Western Canada the word Apostolic is used in reference to believing in the finished work of Calvary and the eternal security doctrine. I have been accused by some in our church of not being Apostolic. When someone says this to me, I just grin and inform them that that the rest of the Apostolic world doesn't even consider them Apostolic for this very reason.
I pastor a church that is made up of different views on almost every major doctrine. Fortunately we now have over 100 people attending our church who were not attending Peoples Full Gospel Church when we arrived in September 2004, so things are changing and we feel we are making progress in bringing about a greater degree of common belief regarding doctrinal issues.
Sandra
05-19-2007, 11:18 AM
I was speaking to a religious person today and the topic came up about what the difference is between apostolic and pentecostal. I asked her what she though apostolic meant and she ran down this list....
1. Dresses
2. Uncut Hair
3. No make-up
4. No television
She equates apostolics with legalism. She doesn't equate an apostolic as being a spirit filled believer who operates in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost.
She reinforces what a vast majority of people think about apostolics. There are some who are intellectually dishonest and would want to question the intelligence of this person, but she is a college graduate, has owned a business, and is a very active member of her church.
Can anyone explain again what legalism has to do with the '' apostle's doctrine''? The world isn't buying it one bit.
many do, this sad.
Brother Strange
05-19-2007, 11:33 AM
Well,
I guess I will just butt out. My statement seems to have made sense to neither Con or Lib.....
I wish everone to have a great week next week....
I am distressed to think that anyone would immediately think of how a person looked outwardly when their attention is called to the people of God...the Apostolic faith.
Jesus did not tell us to let the world see how long your dress is or how naked is your ring finger. He did not tell to let the world see the women's long hair or even truly Godly modesty, though it is integral to being a christian.
The thing that Jesus wanted the world to see in us is a light as a city set upon a hill by our GOOD WORKS.
Let your light shine before men that they might see you GOOD WORKS and glorify your father which is in heaven. It is a life of WORKS moved by the heat of love and the light of the cross that will lift up Jesus giving glory to our heavenly father.
If we are so deceived by our latter day Apostolic doctrine as to think that our GOOD WORKS is our manner of adornment, we are then deceived by our own doctrine. Yet, I've lived long enough to see it.
Daily, I strive to do some GOOD WORK. That is letting my light shine though there is nothing about my outward adornment that would distinguish me from any other silver haired man in a business suit. In doing a GOOD WORK yesterday brought joy to my heart though it was not a great monumental work of reknown. It was something rather small, but quite significant. It made a difference. It was a GOOD work.
Daily we can seek to serve the Lord in our GOOD works, letting our light shine before men without trying to impress the world with our ostentatious outward adornment. Our ultra-conservative adornment very often glorifies no one except the one so adorned among others of like mind. This is "herd" or what is mass deception.
Let us reposition our emphasis upon the intent of the scriptures in giving glory to God by our good works rather than what has become Apostolic PRIDE. Daily we can do something for Jesus in very insignificant ways that may not be so earthshaking but it draws a heavenly smile anyway, as the light berfore men shines out.
I heard a Prophet of the Lord sing as he strumed his guitar and tears flowing down his face, the light shining upon him...
I wonder have I done my best for Jesus?
How many are the souls that I've lifted?
How many are the chains that I've broken too?
I wonder have I done my best for Jesus
He has done his very, very best for me
Oh my! I see the Apostolic Church (as we know it) so far adrift and seems to be drifting further and further away upon a sea of no return...without chart, compass, sail or rudder...just drifting.
:shockamooPOST OF THE WEEK
Truly Blessed
05-19-2007, 11:45 AM
In Eastern Canada the term Apostolic refers to a group of Pentecostals who are very cultish in there daily lifestyle. The women have uncut, uncurled hair, wearing it usually in a style that I think is called "set" hair. Their clothing is very modest. No jewelry. The men have close cropped hair. They are not allowed to marry outside the Apostolic community they are a part of. The leaders are very controlling to the point of requiring that they cash their paychecks at the church where 15% is deducted upon cashing of their paycheck. I believe 5% is to support their Christian school.
PaPaDon
05-19-2007, 12:00 PM
Come on.
The Gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
I don't know any Apostolic preacher who doesn't know that.
Not to suggest or question that your statement is not correct, rather to say that it is not entirely correct....
The WHOLE gospel consists of those elementary principles which comprise the "doctrine of Christ":
1. Repentance from dead works
2. Faith toward God
3. Baptisms
4. Laying on of hands
5. Resurrection of the dead
6. Eternal judgment
Everything else are merely variations and/or components of these fundamental elements.
At least that is my humble opinion, for whatever its worth.
Not to suggest or question that your statement is not correct, rather to say that it is not entirely correct....
The WHOLE gospel consists of those elementary principles which comprise the "doctrine of Christ":
1. Repentance from dead works
2. Faith toward God
3. Baptisms
4. Laying on of hands
5. Resurrection of the dead
6. Eternal judgment
Everything else are merely variations and/or components of these fundamental elements.
At least that is my humble opinion, for whatever its worth.
As I was saying ....
Rhoni
05-19-2007, 12:33 PM
:shockamooPOST OF THE WEEK
Originally Posted by Brother Strange http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?p=119602#post119602)
I am distressed to think that anyone would immediately think of how a person looked outwardly when their attention is called to the people of God...the Apostolic faith.
Jesus did not tell us to let the world see how long your dress is or how naked is your ring finger. He did not tell to let the world see the women's long hair or even truly Godly modesty, though it is integral to being a christian.
The thing that Jesus wanted the world to see in us is a light as a city set upon a hill by our GOOD WORKS.
Let your light shine before men that they might see you GOOD WORKS and glorify your father which is in heaven. It is a life of WORKS moved by the heat of love and the light of the cross that will lift up Jesus giving glory to our heavenly father.
If we are so deceived by our latter day Apostolic doctrine as to think that our GOOD WORKS is our manner of adornment, we are then deceived by our own doctrine. Yet, I've lived long enough to see it.
Daily, I strive to do some GOOD WORK. That is letting my light shine though there is nothing about my outward adornment that would distinguish me from any other silver haired man in a business suit. In doing a GOOD WORK yesterday brought joy to my heart though it was not a great monumental work of reknown. It was something rather small, but quite significant. It made a difference. It was a GOOD work.
Daily we can seek to serve the Lord in our GOOD works, letting our light shine before men without trying to impress the world with our ostentatious outward adornment. Our ultra-conservative adornment very often glorifies no one except the one so adorned among others of like mind. This is "herd" or what is mass deception.
Let us reposition our emphasis upon the intent of the scriptures in giving glory to God by our good works rather than what has become Apostolic PRIDE. Daily we can do something for Jesus in very insignificant ways that may not be so earthshaking but it draws a heavenly smile anyway, as the light berfore men shines out.
I heard a Prophet of the Lord sing as he strumed his guitar and tears flowing down his face, the light shining upon him...
I wonder have I done my best for Jesus?
How many are the souls that I've lifted?
How many are the chains that I've broken too?
I wonder have I done my best for Jesus
He has done his very, very best for me
Oh my! I see the Apostolic Church (as we know it) so far adrift and seems to be drifting further and further away upon a sea of no return...without chart, compass, sail or rudder...just drifting.
I agree with Bro. Dan! Awesome post Bro. Strange!:highfive
Blessings, Rhoni
Steve Epley
05-19-2007, 12:39 PM
I wonder what people in the "world" saw as the Tabernacle?
Badger skins dyes red.
The gold was on the inside.
The prophet said of the Messiah, "He hath no form nor comeliness, and when ye shall see him, there is no beauty that ye should desire him."
Now, holiness is beautiful to me. I could give you just as many anecdotes of people who speak admiringly of our ladies and their standards. But neither my anecdotes nor yours really matter.
Following the principles of the Scripture is what matters, regardless of what the world and its unregenerate children think.
The natural man doesn't comprehend spiritual things. He isn't able to.
You start trying to establish doctrine and practice based on what the world finds appealing, and you will become totally apostate faster than you can say "mini-skirt."
Coonskinner there are folks here who have never been on the inside beyond the badger's skin so they do not have a clue. We must go outside the camp bearing his reproach. Some on here have more in common with TBN than the Apostolic church.
Steve Epley
05-19-2007, 12:44 PM
In Eastern Canada the term Apostolic refers to a group of Pentecostals who are very cultish in there daily lifestyle. The women have uncut, uncurled hair, wearing it usually in a style that I think is called "set" hair. Their clothing is very modest. No jewelry. The men have close cropped hair. They are not allowed to marry outside the Apostolic community they are a part of. The leaders are very controlling to the point of requiring that they cash their paychecks at the church where 15% is deducted upon cashing of their paycheck. I believe 5% is to support their Christian school.
Now Elder is this a fact??????????????
My brother-in-law's mother and other family members go there anf they say they have never done this. I do NOT agree with everything PR believes but some of these tales get far fetched.
Well,
I guess I will just butt out. My statement seems to have made sense to neither Con or Lib.....
I wish everone to have a great week next week....
:shockamooPOST OF THE WEEK
Bro. Strange,
I agree with your post, but I don't see what it has to do with the thread? Someone spoke to an educated, religious woman who thought "Apostolic" was defined by outward standards and with legalism. It was also said, "She doesn't equate an apostolic as being a spirit filled believer who operates in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost."
While your post has truth in it, it does not answer the problem this woman has. She might be educated and religious, but she is not born again (that I've read) and apparently no one has ever taken the time to talk with her about what she believes and why, and, even moreso, explain scripturally what "Apostolic" does mean.
I don't see it and can't assume it didn't happen, but I wonder if the originator of this thread has an Apostolic church which "operates in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost" to take her to? If so, was she invited?
Also, I wonder how the originator of this thread answered this educated, religious woman's definition? Did he/she attempt to define "Apostolic" by scripture, or did he/she just agree and reinforce this woman's ignorance? If the latter, then I don't know why he/she would even start this thread, seeing as he/she shirked his/her responsibility to this woman.
It's fun to come on and bash standards, but I wonder if the educated, religious woman in this thread is any closer to being born again than she was before the conversation? That's what it's all about, isn't it?
Excellent thought, CS!!
And that is exactly what too many "Apostolics" do today-- they let the criticism of the world (which we know is mostly born out of ignorance and/or rebellion) bring into question if "we" are really right about this separation thing.
tv1a: It has nothing to do with fear of criticism. The Bible says we would be persecuted for His Name's Sake. The separation comes with a relationship with Jesus which many substitue with a clothesline doctrine.
Just because some educated, religious woman doesn't understand what Apostolic means, personally and scripturally, and just because she has come up with a definition based (most likely) on her refusal to ever adhere to such separation doesn't mean we are wrong. Ya' ever think SHE is wrong?
tv1a: Post after post after post shows anyone and their mother has a "biblical" definition of apostolic. Give the Gieco cavemen some time and they could come with a definition of apostolic. How can she be wrong in her definition of apostolic when there isn't a biblical or universal definition anyone can agree on? She is just as right in her definition of apostolic as you are. Did you ever think the light you thought you were shining wasn't coming from the bulb you thought it would was?
Disclaimer: I'm referring strictly to outward standards, as this is what the lady focused on. She is inwardly still not holy, so why would I (we) expect her to have anything but a skewed perception of what Apostolic is? tv1a: The lady only focuses on what she sees. If she saw a little more God and a little less legalism she may have had a different conclusion.
The more I read this thread and others like this, the more I see the skewered definition of apostolic comes from the inside. ...
Rev Dooley
05-19-2007, 09:13 PM
In Eastern Canada the term Apostolic refers to a group of Pentecostals who are very cultish in there daily lifestyle. The women have uncut, uncurled hair, wearing it usually in a style that I think is called "set" hair. Their clothing is very modest. No jewelry. The men have close cropped hair. They are not allowed to marry outside the Apostolic community they are a part of. The leaders are very controlling to the point of requiring that they cash their paychecks at the church where 15% is deducted upon cashing of their paycheck. I believe 5% is to support their Christian school.I do not believe this is godly in essence since it is similar to what happened in Scotland several decades ago in the catholic church. This was told to me by a missionary friend:
He said that to attend the church, they had a set tithe amount based on the number of members. Each member had to give "X" regardless of ability. This put the poorer members in a quandry since they wished to attend, but could not afford the tithe tax.
This church has no right to make a decree like this. It is not godly nor even morally right.
JMHO
NI
Scriptural separation is a matter of the heart...
Would you call scriptural separation a condition of the spiritual (inward) man or the physical (outward) body/man?
OGIA,
No one can explain apostolic scripturally. It is all speculation. Rosie O'Donnell is just as apostolic as you are. Picking a few words of scriptures for a selective self serving definitions doesn't mean a thing. We know legalism breeds self-serving definitions. Can't call electronice video devices a television. Have to call it a monitor to get by the standards patrol. Can't have television because of the junk that's on it. But it's okay to have internet access.
Even if I wanted to explain what an apostolic is, there are no scriptures to define what an apostolic is. I choose to stay in the Word. People can make up their own minds.
I notice the novel approach of denying the fact your definition of apostolic is not a mainstream definition of apostolic. You're pseudo concern of whether I'm sharing my faith or not is irrelevant to the conversation.
Your post proves since you have no credible defense against the message, to attack the messager. Annas and Ciaaphas would be so proud of you.
Bro. Strange,
I agree with your post, but I don't see what it has to do with the thread? Someone spoke to an educated, religious woman who thought "Apostolic" was defined by outward standards and with legalism. It was also said, "She doesn't equate an apostolic as being a spirit filled believer who operates in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost."
While your post has truth in it, it does not answer the problem this woman has. She might be educated and religious, but she is not born again (that I've read) and apparently no one has ever taken the time to talk with her about what she believes and why, and, even moreso, explain scripturally what "Apostolic" does mean.
I don't see it and can't assume it didn't happen, but I wonder if the originator of this thread has an Apostolic church which "operates in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost" to take her to? If so, was she invited?
Also, I wonder how the originator of this thread answered this educated, religious woman's definition? Did he/she attempt to define "Apostolic" by scripture, or did he/she just agree and reinforce this woman's ignorance? If the latter, then I don't know why he/she would even start this thread, seeing as he/she shirked his/her responsibility to this woman.
It's fun to come on and bash standards, but I wonder if the educated, religious woman in this thread is any closer to being born again than she was before the conversation? That's what it's all about, isn't it?
OGIA,
No one can explain apostolic scripturally. It is all speculation. Rosie O'Donnell is just as apostolic as you are. Picking a few words of scriptures for a selective self serving definitions doesn't mean a thing. We know legalism breeds self-serving definitions. Can't call electronice video devices a television. Have to call it a monitor to get by the standards patrol. Can't have television because of the junk that's on it. But it's okay to have internet access.
Even if I wanted to explain what an apostolic is, there are no scriptures to define what an apostolic is. I choose to stay in the Word. People can make up their own minds.
I notice the novel approach of denying the fact your definition of apostolic is not a mainstream definition of apostolic. You're pseudo concern of whether I'm sharing my faith or not is irrelevant to the conversation.
Your post proves since you have no credible defense against the message, to attack the messager. Annas and Ciaaphas would be so proud of you.
This post is was posted with a Bad Spirit. now, I too have not been able to eqaute the difference between preaching agianst TV and internet either knowing how detrimental both can be and perhaps internet being the worst of the 2 evils, but to refer to OGIA as a Rosie Odonnell is really Low
ogia,
btw, the innuendos will not be dignified with a response because you are attempting to trivialize someone who has a diffrent opinion. This post is one of the most psuedo intellectual posts I've seen in a while.
One doesn't have enough time to explain how a clothesline doctrine fits into signs following a believer. It takes a lot of hot air to make sense out man made standards.
Bro. Strange,
I agree with your post, but I don't see what it has to do with the thread? Someone spoke to an educated, religious woman who thought "Apostolic" was defined by outward standards and with legalism. It was also said, "She doesn't equate an apostolic as being a spirit filled believer who operates in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost."
While your post has truth in it, it does not answer the problem this woman has. She might be educated and religious, but she is not born again (that I've read) and apparently no one has ever taken the time to talk with her about what she believes and why, and, even moreso, explain scripturally what "Apostolic" does mean.
I don't see it and can't assume it didn't happen, but I wonder if the originator of this thread has an Apostolic church which "operates in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost" to take her to? If so, was she invited?
Also, I wonder how the originator of this thread answered this educated, religious woman's definition? Did he/she attempt to define "Apostolic" by scripture, or did he/she just agree and reinforce this woman's ignorance? If the latter, then I don't know why he/she would even start this thread, seeing as he/she shirked his/her responsibility to this woman.
It's fun to come on and bash standards, but I wonder if the educated, religious woman in this thread is any closer to being born again than she was before the conversation? That's what it's all about, isn't it?
If you've read my previous posts, I have said anyone can make a legitimate claim to the term apostolic. Rosie O'Donnell could pull something out of the Bible and say she's apostolic. No bad attitude intended. Apostolic is a subjective term that people get all worked up over with no real reason. When taken in context of my previous posts on similar discussions, it all makes sense. I'm not suggesting OGIA & Rosie O'Donnell have something in common. I'm stating that R O'D can make a subjective claim as easy as OGIA. How you can get a bad spirit out of that is beyond me. The innuendos from ogia suggests more of a bad spirit from that side than mine.
Hope that clears it up.
This post is was posted with a Bad Spirit. now, I too have not been able to eqaute the difference between preaching agianst TV and internet either knowing how detrimental both can be and perhaps internet being the worst of the 2 evils, but to refer to OGIA as a Rosie Odonnell is really Low
Thad,
I am reminded of a conversation on another forum, maybe there is a thread about it here about a homosexual apostolic congregation in the midwest. The point is even a homosexual can find scriptures to validate their definition of apostolic. Do I find that outrageous? You bet I do. But I also realize they are using the same techniques of customizing the definition to fit a particular agenda.
berkeley
05-19-2007, 11:23 PM
tv1a.. it's a lost cause with these folk!!!
rrford
05-19-2007, 11:25 PM
tv1a.. it's a lost cause with these folk!!!
Berkeley,
Are you Apostolic?
berkeley
05-19-2007, 11:26 PM
Berkeley,
Are you Apostolic?
If I say yes.. someone will find something wrong with me and say that I'm not..
If I say no then I have no business in this discussion..
why do you inquire??
The Ozzy Osbourne quote in my signature says it all.
tv1a.. it's a lost cause with these folk!!!
Berkeley,
Are you Apostolic?
I'm more Apostolic than he is .... no doubt ... and I got you beat to RR.
berkeley
05-19-2007, 11:36 PM
I'm more Apostolic than he is .... no doubt ... and I got you beat to RR.
Please.. from the guy that believes the Baptist are saved!!!
Define apostolic with scripture.
A christian is defined in scripture. A believer is defined in scripture. An apostolic is not defined in scripture.
Berkeley,
Are you Apostolic?
Nice way to avoid the labelling.
If I say yes.. someone will find something wrong with me and say that I'm not..
If I say no then I have no business in this discussion..
why do you inquire??
rrford
05-19-2007, 11:44 PM
If I say yes.. someone will find something wrong with me and say that I'm not..
If I say no then I have no business in this discussion..
why do you inquire??
My point exactly. Some pontificate about being apostolic and others chime in and tell them they aren't because of a definition. Not sure how you can tell someone they aren't something if even you can't define the term. This whole discussion is actually quite circular, IMO.
berkeley
05-19-2007, 11:45 PM
My point exactly. Some pontificate about being apostolic and others chime in and tell them they aren't because of a definition. Not sure how you can tell someone they aren't something if even you can't define the term. This whole discussion is actually quite circular, IMO.
point? I didn't tell someone that he is or isn't apostolic.
Was not the thread about what people think apostolics are versus what self-described apostolics are?
My point exactly. Some pontificate about being apostolic and others chime in and tell them they aren't because of a definition. Not sure how you can tell someone they aren't something if even you can't define the term. This whole discussion is actually quite circular, IMO.
My point exactly. Some pontificate about being apostolic and others chime in and tell them they aren't because of a definition. Not sure how you can tell someone they aren't something if even you can't define the term. This whole discussion is actually quite circular, IMO.
Apostolic: See Dan.
rrford
05-19-2007, 11:49 PM
point? I didn't tell someone that he is or isn't apostolic.
No. But you implied it was useless to convince some folks around here. I was merely pointing out the other side of that coin.
rrford
05-19-2007, 11:50 PM
Was not the thread about what people think apostolics are versus what self-described apostolics are?
Perhaps. But it seems to me that if no definition of "apostolic" is acceptable then we have circular reasoning.
The point to Dan is the same point I made to ogia. Anyone can say they are apostolic.
Apostolic: See Dan.
berkeley
05-19-2007, 11:52 PM
one who believes in fulfilling John 3:5 and Acts 2:38, whether they believe it takes all three to be saved, or it is necessary to fulfill all three because you are already saved!
If they fulfill the plan they are Apostolic.
Everything else is subjective, as far as this guy is concerned!!
There is a lot of circular reasoning in religion. lol
Perhaps. But it seems to me that if no definition of "apostolic" is acceptable then we have curcular reasoning.
Rev. Run made waves when he became a christian. His pastor calls himself an apostle. Rev. Run's pastor is on late night television offereing free prophecies to whomever calls in. I'm quite certain Rev. Run's pastor has not been baptized in Jesus name. Rev Run's pastor considers himself an apostolic. The definition of apostolic is based on speculation and through the prisms we want to use when defining apostolic.
one who believes in fulfilling John 3:5 and Acts 2:38, whether they believe it takes all three to be saved, or it is necessary to fulfill all three because you are already saved!
If they fulfill the plan they are Apostolic.
Everything else is subjective, as far as this guy is concerned!!
berkeley
05-19-2007, 11:58 PM
Rev. Run made waves when he became a christian. His pastor calls himself an apostle. Rev. Run's pastor is on late night television offereing free prophecies to whomever calls in.
what does that have to do with what I said?
I had to finish the post.. sometimes I hit enter too soon.
what does that have to do with what I said?
berkeley
05-20-2007, 12:01 AM
Rev. Run made waves when he became a christian. His pastor calls himself an apostle. Rev. Run's pastor is on late night television offereing free prophecies to whomever calls in. I'm quite certain Rev. Run's pastor has not been baptized in Jesus name. Rev Run's pastor considers himself an apostolic. The definition of apostolic is based on speculation and through the prisms we want to use when defining apostolic.
well.. he is not apostolic according to this guy!
But he is an apostle (Goes by Bishop Jordan I do believe) according to his definition. This problem happens often when people try to use subjective terms to identifie a work.
well.. he is not apostolic according to this guy!
berkeley
05-20-2007, 12:09 AM
But he is an apostle (Goes by Bishop Jordan I do believe) according to his definition. This problem happens often when people try to use subjective terms to identifie a work.
well... at least my definition includes conservative and liberal PAJC and PCI!! :bubble
Is that smoke you are blowing out your icon? SUch symbolism. LOL
well... at least my definition includes conservative and liberal PAJC and PCI!! :bubble
berkeley
05-20-2007, 12:13 AM
Is that smoke you are blowing out your icon? SUch symbolism. LOL
smoke?? you mean the guys SHADOW???
For those about to rock, we salute you. Then we are going to bed it's after 2pm Eastern Time. I turned the tv channel to the catholic channel and now I'm nodding off real bad. I have to get up in 3-4 hours...
The icon I'm looking at in your post is spewing green stuff out like Linda Blair in the excorcist. smoke?? you mean the guys SHADOW???
berkeley
05-20-2007, 12:25 AM
The icon I'm looking at in your post is spewing green stuff out like Linda Blair in the excorcist.
you are trippin!!
Rhoni
05-20-2007, 06:49 AM
I will have to report: This goes along with the subject the thread began as...
During my 5 year period of getting out of Dodge [UPCI], I did visit many UPCI churches with friends or to see friends. When they chose threir text to shame/judge/blame me for my education, my lack of holding to the approved UPCI dress code...of course they turned me off and reminded me why I did not want to be a part of them any longer.
I will have to say that one very prominent preacher friend took a different approach; He spoke on how many of the dress standards were not a heaven or hell issue but they were there to identify one with a specific group of people. I was the target, and I heard EXACTLY what he was saying. Dress standards as mandated by many Apostolic churches are NOT heaven or hell issues and emphasis should not be placed on them. The thing that got me was this: I did NOT want to be identified in a retail store or a restaurant as one of them: You know, frizzy perms, jean skirts with bobby socks and tennis shoes, and RUDE...I hated to go in with an APOSTOLIC group that was demanding to the waitresses, let their children run around the tables without discipline, and the young people moving around until the waitress didn't know where to put the food, and then not leave a tip.
I DID NOT want to be identified with them. This Pastor did his best to win me back over and was totally perplexed why I did come back to a UPCI church in the area that was not his. The UPCI church I came back to accepted me like I was. They used me before I lined up to their platform standard and took many a hit for it. They didn't push me. They loved me.
Just thought I'd thorw this in there for those who wonder why they can't win who they consider 'backsliders' back to their assemblies. They know what they should and shouldn't do...they do not need these sermons tailored just for them in this way. The Pastor needs to preach what God lays on his heart and not be controlled by wanting to 'save' that person by preaching what they want them to hear. They need to be loved. That is the bottom line.
Blessings, Rhoni
Rhoni
05-20-2007, 06:52 AM
I was speaking to a religious person today and the topic came up about what the difference is between apostolic and pentecostal. I asked her what she though apostolic meant and she ran down this list....
1. Dresses
2. Uncut Hair
3. No make-up
4. No television
She equates apostolics with legalism. She doesn't equate an apostolic as being a spirit filled believer who operates in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost.
She reinforces what a vast majority of people think about apostolics. There are some who are intellectually dishonest and would want to question the intelligence of this person, but she is a college graduate, has owned a business, and is a very active member of her church.
Can anyone explain again what legalism has to do with the '' apostle's doctrine''? The world isn't buying it one bit.
Check out the previous post...people don't need shame/blame/and judgement...they get enough of it from the world. They need to know that God loves them and accepts them as they are. They need to know that any changes that need to be made they have the time and the relationship to God to work on these things without man's interference.
Just my humble opinion.
Blessings, Rhoni
Brother Strange
05-20-2007, 08:04 AM
Bro. Strange,
I agree with your post, but I don't see what it has to do with the thread? Someone spoke to an educated, religious woman who thought "Apostolic" was defined by outward standards and with legalism. It was also said, "She doesn't equate an apostolic as being a spirit filled believer who operates in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost."
While your post has truth in it, it does not answer the problem this woman has. She might be educated and religious, but she is not born again (that I've read) and apparently no one has ever taken the time to talk with her about what she believes and why, and, even moreso, explain scripturally what "Apostolic" does mean.
I don't see it and can't assume it didn't happen, but I wonder if the originator of this thread has an Apostolic church which "operates in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost" to take her to? If so, was she invited?
Also, I wonder how the originator of this thread answered this educated, religious woman's definition? Did he/she attempt to define "Apostolic" by scripture, or did he/she just agree and reinforce this woman's ignorance? If the latter, then I don't know why he/she would even start this thread, seeing as he/she shirked his/her responsibility to this woman.
It's fun to come on and bash standards, but I wonder if the educated, religious woman in this thread is any closer to being born again than she was before the conversation? That's what it's all about, isn't it?
Central to the spirit of the title of this thread, "What the World Sees as Apostolic," lifts the curtain of discussion to reveal every species of dancing spirits in full motion. It was my purpose to address some of these spirits with the Word of God rather than to address a specific scenario presented by the originator of this thread.
It is a crying shame that, if it be so, that the attentions of the world have been focused upon our FLESH and how it is displayed before the world instead of the LIGHT of Christ so exibited within us. If we are so insane as to exhibit before the world OUR FLESH with its adornments or the lack of it, as our LIGHT from a city set upon a hill, our present day Apostolic doctrine has DECEIVED us.
Yet, I know this sad state of affair is true, calling it "separation," while it is not separation at all but rather, it has become just another sub-set of worldliness, abeit, religious worldliness.
So, the dance of spirits continued as this discussion ensued. Again, I want to re-empahsize that our LIGHT will never be a display of FLESH, regardless of how it is, or is not adorned, but rather as the song says...
If I can help somebody as I travel 'long
If I can help somebody with a word or song
If I can show somebody when he's travlin' wrong
Then my living shall not be in vain
If collectively we can embrace THIS focus, we will then give God glory and the world will see Jesus (the light) in us as a bright city set upon a hill that cannot be moved. Otherwise, we will, under the guise of Apostolic Doctrine continue to focus the attentions of the world upon (unholy) FLESH by which the world is not impressed. They already have plenty of their own.
Regardless, I suspect the endless dance of many and varied species of spirits will continue to infinity...or at least, until Jesus says, "ENOUGH."
Central to the spirit of the title of this thread, "What the World Sees as Apostolic," lifts the curtain of discussion to reveal every species of dancing spirits in full motion. It was my purpose to address some of these spirits with the Word of God rather than to address a specific scenario presented by the originator of this thread.
It is a crying shame that, if it be so, that the attentions of the world have been focused upon our FLESH and how it is displayed before the world instead of the LIGHT of Christ so exibited within us. If we are so insane as to exhibit before the world OUR FLESH with its adornments or the lack of it, as our LIGHT from a city set upon a hill, our present day Apostolic doctrine has DECEIVED us.
Yet, I know this sad state of affair is true, calling it "separation," while it is not separation at all but rather, it has become just another sub-set of worldliness, abeit, religious worldliness.
So, the dance of spirits continued as this discussion ensued. Again, I want to re-empahsize that our LIGHT will never be a display of FLESH, regardless of how it is, or is not adorned, but rather as the song says...
If I can help somebody as I travel 'long
If I can help somebody with a word or song
If I can show somebody when he's travlin' wrong
Then my living shall not be in vain
If collectively we can embrace THIS focus, we will then give God glory and the world will see Jesus (the light) in us as a bright city set upon a hill that cannot be moved. Otherwise, we will, under the guise of Apostolic Doctrine continue to focus the attentions of the world upon (unholy) FLESH by which the world is not impressed. They already have plenty of their own.
Regardless, I suspect the endless dance of many and varied species of spirits will continue to infinity...or at least, until Jesus says, "ENOUGH."
Tek has his Divine Flesh doctrine... while some have their unholy Flesh doctrine .... Elder ... I think you've coined a new phrase ....
Outstanding insights ....as always.
CupCake
05-20-2007, 12:32 PM
I have to admit, my whole life when I have tried to explain the relatively obscure religion that I was raised in, I do not see a glimmer of recognition until I say, "you know, the one where the women only wear dresses, don't cut their hair, and don't wear make-up or jewelry"... at that time they usually go, "Oh, now I know the one you are talking about, I think one of those ladies works down the hall from me"...
If they HAVE heard of Pentecostals, they think you are Assembly of God.
I'm sure this means something but I'm not sure what... (actually I am but can't decide which path to take. lol)... I'm sure that those who only hang out with other Pentecostals will believe I am lying or be shocked to know that the majority of people do not even know what a Pentecostal is, let alone a Oneness Pentecostal.
Agree with you, the definition Apostolic and Pentecostals cover a whole range of groups. But if you say holiness standard ones, they'll say ok there the ones who don't cut or wear makeup right??? Never anything about one God or Jesus name, it's always dress.
:sshhh
CupCake
05-20-2007, 12:34 PM
I will have to report: This goes along with the subject the thread began as...
During my 5 year period of getting out of Dodge [UPCI], I did visit many UPCI churches with friends or to see friends. When they chose threir text to shame/judge/blame me for my education, my lack of holding to the approved UPCI dress code...of course they turned me off and reminded me why I did not want to be a part of them any longer.
I will have to say that one very prominent preacher friend took a different approach; He spoke on how many of the dress standards were not a heaven or hell issue but they were there to identify one with a specific group of people. I was the target, and I heard EXACTLY what he was saying. Dress standards as mandated by many Apostolic churches are NOT heaven or hell issues and emphasis should not be placed on them. The thing that got me was this: I did NOT want to be identified in a retail store or a restaurant as one of them: You know, frizzy perms, jean skirts with bobby socks and tennis shoes, and RUDE...I hated to go in with an APOSTOLIC group that was demanding to the waitresses, let their children run around the tables without discipline, and the young people moving around until the waitress didn't know where to put the food, and then not leave a tip.
I DID NOT want to be identified with them. This Pastor did his best to win me back over and was totally perplexed why I did come back to a UPCI church in the area that was not his. The UPCI church I came back to accepted me like I was. They used me before I lined up to their platform standard and took many a hit for it. They didn't push me. They loved me.
Just thought I'd thorw this in there for those who wonder why they can't win who they consider 'backsliders' back to their assemblies. They know what they should and shouldn't do...they do not need these sermons tailored just for them in this way. The Pastor needs to preach what God lays on his heart and not be controlled by wanting to 'save' that person by preaching what they want them to hear. They need to be loved. That is the bottom line.
Blessings, Rhoni
:highfive
I can find a scripture defining Christian, I could find a scripture defining believer, I could find a scripture defining sinner. I told the pastor I don't want to be labeled that cannot be found in the Bible.
you are trippin!!
That my friend is the heart of the matter.
Agree with you, the definition Apostolic and Pentecostals cover a whole range of groups. But if you say holiness standard ones, they'll say ok there the ones who don't cut or wear makeup right??? Never anything about one God or Jesus name, it's always dress.
:sshhh
It saddens me that people don't think of Jesus when they think of an apostolic. People don't even think of the apostles when they hear the word apostolic. I'm still trying to figure out how they are going to win people to Jesus when what is displayed isn't Biblical.
Central to the spirit of the title of this thread, "What the World Sees as Apostolic," lifts the curtain of discussion to reveal every species of dancing spirits in full motion. It was my purpose to address some of these spirits with the Word of God rather than to address a specific scenario presented by the originator of this thread.
It is a crying shame that, if it be so, that the attentions of the world have been focused upon our FLESH and how it is displayed before the world instead of the LIGHT of Christ so exibited within us. If we are so insane as to exhibit before the world OUR FLESH with its adornments or the lack of it, as our LIGHT from a city set upon a hill, our present day Apostolic doctrine has DECEIVED us.
Yet, I know this sad state of affair is true, calling it "separation," while it is not separation at all but rather, it has become just another sub-set of worldliness, abeit, religious worldliness.
So, the dance of spirits continued as this discussion ensued. Again, I want to re-empahsize that our LIGHT will never be a display of FLESH, regardless of how it is, or is not adorned, but rather as the song says...
If I can help somebody as I travel 'long
If I can help somebody with a word or song
If I can show somebody when he's travlin' wrong
Then my living shall not be in vain
If collectively we can embrace THIS focus, we will then give God glory and the world will see Jesus (the light) in us as a bright city set upon a hill that cannot be moved. Otherwise, we will, under the guise of Apostolic Doctrine continue to focus the attentions of the world upon (unholy) FLESH by which the world is not impressed. They already have plenty of their own.
Regardless, I suspect the endless dance of many and varied species of spirits will continue to infinity...or at least, until Jesus says, "ENOUGH."
CupCake
05-20-2007, 07:43 PM
That my friend is the heart of the matter.
Yep, it's all about the outward ~
Aren't we a bit jaded? lol
Yep, it's all about the outward ~
berkeley
05-20-2007, 07:46 PM
Aren't we a bit jaded? lol
Aerosmith???
FRINGE_NUTTER
05-20-2007, 07:47 PM
I asked a person I became acquainted with about what he thought of Oneness Pentecostals in general and he said that they are mean, grouchy and don't smile, etc. etc. . Not making this up. He was in a business and said they were the hardest ones to deal with that he rather they do their business somewhere else. Is this sad or what? I'm OP, but not like that and he didn't think of me that way.
berkeley
05-20-2007, 07:48 PM
I asked a person I became acquainted with about what he thought of Oneness Pentecostals in general and he said that they are mean, grouchy and don't smile, etc. etc. . Not making this up. He was in a business and said they were the hardest ones to deal with that he rather they do their business somewhere else. Is this sad or what? I'm OP, but not like that and he didn't think of me that way.
Exception rather than the rule!!
Yeah.. I just found another scripture where the Apostle Paul quoted a pagan. That is at least three instances that the holy writ was defiled by paganism.
Based on Biblical precedent, I figured I would take a little liberty and use contemporary pagans to illustrate biblical perceptions.
Aerosmith???
FRINGE_NUTTER
05-20-2007, 07:50 PM
Exception rather than the rule!!
depends on who the OPs are. just telling you what apostolic meant to him.
I'm curious to know what your acquaintance apostolic means. The more stories we hear, the more the evidence will be documented people do not generally see Jesus in an apostolic.
I asked a person I became acquainted with about what he thought of Oneness Pentecostals in general and he said that they are mean, grouchy and don't smile, etc. etc. . Not making this up. He was in a business and said they were the hardest ones to deal with that he rather they do their business somewhere else. Is this sad or what? I'm OP, but not like that and he didn't think of me that way.
berkeley
05-20-2007, 07:52 PM
please don't turn this into an anti-apo thread.
FRINGE_NUTTER
05-20-2007, 07:54 PM
please don't turn this into an anti-apo thread.
the thread's name is what the world sees as apostolic and i got the nerve up to ask someone and that was what i was told. sad. i admit.
CupCake
05-20-2007, 08:04 PM
I'm curious to know what your acquaintance apostolic means. The more stories we hear, the more the evidence will be documented people do not generally see Jesus in an apostolic.
This why I rather call myself a follower of Jesus these days. When I was in the church I'd say, I'm apostolic, and most would roll their eyes and say please don't even go there, or your the crazy ones who roll on the floor and talk in tongues. Or I knew someone who was Pentecost , or I visited a Apostolic church once and I have nothing good to say about you people. So I drop it.
FN, You have two options. Fight like mad to redefine apostolic, or just drop the subjective label from your vocabulary all together. I have chosen the latter since no one can find scripture defining what an apostolic is. If I fight to change the label, I'm only addiing to the confusion by adding another subjective definition to the already muddied waters.
the thread's name is what the world sees as apostolic and i got the nerve up to ask someone and that was what i was told. sad. i admit.
FRINGE_NUTTER
05-20-2007, 08:11 PM
FN, You have two options. Fight like mad to redefine apostolic, or just drop the subjective label from your vocabulary all together. I have chosen the latter since no one can find scripture defining what an apostolic is. If I fight to change the label, I'm only addiing to the confusion by adding another subjective definition to the already muddied waters.
no way one person can do much good in trying to redefine apostolic. so, you don't use apostolic or pentecostal?? what about oneness Christian? that's what i prefer.
It's a hard habit to break, but I'm slowly getting away from mentioning denominational affiliation. It all gets back to the I'm something you are not mentality.
This why I rather call myself a follower of Jesus these days. When I was in the church I'd say, I'm apostolic, and most would roll their eyes and say please don't even go there, or your the crazy ones who roll on the floor and talk in tongues. Or I knew someone who was Pentecost , or I visited a Apostolic church once and I have nothing good to say about you people. So I drop it.
CupCake
05-20-2007, 08:12 PM
FN, You have two options. Fight like mad to redefine apostolic, or just drop the subjective label from your vocabulary all together. I have chosen the latter since no one can find scripture defining what an apostolic is. If I fight to change the label, I'm only addiing to the confusion by adding another subjective definition to the already muddied waters.
To me a true Apostolic would be someone who Christ like, and that's a far cry from a wardrobe change....;)
CupCake
05-20-2007, 08:17 PM
It's a hard habit to break, but I'm slowly getting away from mentioning denominational affiliation. It all gets back to the I'm something you are not mentality.
I have found by sharing the good news without adding, "I'm apostolic/Pentecostal" has made it a lot easier, and people tend to be more open. Where as before they put up a wall, move on.
I believe it the band Chicago that sang "You're a Hard Habit to Break". I'm working on dropping the word apostolic from my vocabulary.
I know it's hard for many to believe but God isn't pentecostal or apostolic. God isn't a christian. God isn't trinitarian or oneness. God is God, period. When I get to heaven, I won't see a penetecosal or apostolic on the throne. I will see Jesus.
I'm not going to label myself becasue once I do, I paint God in this little box based on my labels.
no way one person can do much good in trying to redefine apostolic. so, you don't use apostolic or pentecostal?? what about oneness Christian? that's what i prefer.
There is a term in the Bible that means christ-like. That is a christian. The word christian was a derrogatory term used against followers of Christ. Not one person had to identify themselves as a christian. People knew they were christians because they were followers of Christ.
God impressed on my if I have to tell people I'm a christian, than maybe I'm not the christian I should be. When I'm living right. People will know. I won't have to wear a lapel pin or put a bumper sticker on my car. People will know. My ultimate goal is to live so people see Jesus and not me. When they see Jesus, they will see someone who is a christian.
To me a true Apostolic would be someone who Christ like, and that's a far cry from a wardrobe change....;)
CupCake
05-20-2007, 08:30 PM
I believe it the band Chicago that sang "You're a Hard Habit to Break". I'm working on dropping the word apostolic from my vocabulary.
I know it's hard for many to believe but God isn't pentecostal or apostolic. God isn't a christian. God isn't trinitarian or oneness. God is God, period. When I get to heaven, I won't see a penetecosal or apostolic on the throne. I will see Jesus.
I'm not going to label myself becasue once I do, I paint God in this little box based on my labels.
Hey I agree~ Jesus never called Himself Pentecostal or Apostolic. in fact a lot of the standards teachings heaven or hell Jesus and the apostle never taught it.
CupCake
05-20-2007, 08:32 PM
There is a term in the Bible that means christ-like. That is a christian. The word christian was a derrogatory term used against followers of Christ. Not one person had to identify themselves as a christian. People knew they were christians because they were followers of Christ.
God impressed on my if I have to tell people I'm a christian, than maybe I'm not the christian I should be. When I'm living right. People will know. I won't have to wear a lapel pin or put a bumper sticker on my car. People will know. My ultimate goal is to live so people see Jesus and not me. When they see Jesus, they will see someone who is a christian.
Amen~ The word clear, you'll know my people, if they love~ Nothing more, nothing less~
rrford
05-20-2007, 09:27 PM
Amen~ The word clear, you'll know my people, if they love~ Nothing more, nothing less~
LOL! I think not.
Steve Epley
05-20-2007, 09:39 PM
Some folks think the love of God is 2 hippies in a sleeping bag.:sing
Hoovie
05-20-2007, 10:11 PM
Some folks think the love of God is 2 hippies in a sleeping bag.:sing
Does your use of "hippies" implicate unmarried and male??
rrford
05-20-2007, 10:13 PM
Does your use of "hippies" implicate unmarried and male??
As in "unmarried males?" Probably not.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 08:29 AM
Some folks think the love of God is 2 hippies in a sleeping bag.:sing
:lol
...two hippies in a sleeping bag. :killinme
Well, at least we know what the love of God is NOT!
CupCake
05-21-2007, 10:41 AM
LOL! I think not.
Prove where in the word of God it say you'll know them by their outward dress???
You preach another gospel, another way~
CupCake
05-21-2007, 10:43 AM
Some folks think the love of God is 2 hippies in a sleeping bag.:sing
Sadly most of you believe love has something to do with a wardrobe change~
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 10:49 AM
Prove where in the word of God it say you'll know them by their outward dress???
You preach another gospel, another way~
Good.
Or you will know them by the lack of a ring?
HA!
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 10:50 AM
Sadly most of you believe love has something to do with a wardrobe change~
NO!
It has to do with two hippies in one sleeping bag...hahaha... :killinme
CupCake
05-21-2007, 10:57 AM
NO!
It has to do with two hippies in one sleeping bag...hahaha... :killinme
LOl~ I got you babe~
Dig their threads~
http://www.sundazed.com/artists/artistpage_gfx/artist_pics/sonnycherpic.jpg
CupCake
05-21-2007, 10:58 AM
Good.
Or you will know them by the lack of a ring?
HA!
:killinme
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 11:15 AM
There was once an ultra conservative Pastor in Mississippi that required all the women to wear dresses that did not come above the floor above four inches. You should have seen that bunch. They were a sight to behold.
The pastor required the women to make peanut brittle and get out on the streets in almost every city around and about, including over into Louisiana peddling that brittle from business to business.
They lied to the people telling them that they were selling the peanut brittle because they were in a building program. They were not. This ultra conservative Pastor was hiding hundreds of thousands of dollars in his bedroom. A visiting preacher stole a good bit of it. But, I think that he was arrested.
Nevertheless, there was nothing about those women that had any resemblece of what I thought of as being Apostolic. This ultra conservative pastor even locked the doors of the church when church began. I am glad that there was never a fire. People would have perished.
Anyway, this very strict, ultra con...or maybe I should simply call him a CON, is sitting in prison for among many other crimes...pediphelia. He was a pediphile for years. A neighboring pastor said that he was a homosexual. But this ultra conservative is sitting in prison but LADIES STILL DO NOT WEAR A RING.
Here is a warning: You are going to fall and possibly be broken if you battle in the FLESH. It is only a matter of time. I fear when I see good men who take up the implements of their warfare in the flesh. I know that they are headed for a crash landing. There was such a man on the old forum. He is now permanently banned. I warned him that he was headed for a crash. He did not like me and followed me around everywhere I went trying to belittle me in every way. I would get upset with him, but I knew it was only a matter of time.
The weapons of our warfare are NOT carnal...'nuff said.
Subdued
05-21-2007, 11:25 AM
I pray - and my deepest desire is - that I will be known for my positive attitude. I want to be seen as someone who is slow to anger. Who is objective and wise. I hope to be viewed as a person who always puts God first and who is kind and caring. I want to be someone others enjoy being around; not because I'm the life of the party, but because they know that they can count on me to lend an ear and a shoulder to cry on and that they can trust me to be a person who will help carry their burden & pray for their needs. It doesn't matter to me if I LOOK "Apostolic." What truly matters to me is that I am like Jesus & that I am a good wife, mother, friend, and Christian. I would rather someone feel drawn to me by something they sense than by how I look. My focus is no longer on making sure I look the part; my focus is on Jesus, my husband & children, and on people in general.
Hoovie
05-21-2007, 11:30 AM
I knew of a church in Philly (CLJCAF) that kept a yard stick at the church door... to measure 3-4" off the ground to the skirt bottoms. He also, had armorbearers to open doors for him and carry his bible/read etc.
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 12:34 PM
There was once an ultra conservative Pastor in Mississippi that required all the women to wear dresses that did not come above the floor above four inches. You should have seen that bunch. They were a sight to behold.
The pastor required the women to make peanut brittle and get out on the streets in almost every city around and about, including over into Louisiana peddling that brittle from business to business.
They lied to the people telling them that they were selling the peanut brittle because they were in a building program. They were not. This ultra conservative Pastor was hiding hundreds of thousands of dollars in his bedroom. A visiting preacher stole a good bit of it. But, I think that he was arrested.
Nevertheless, there was nothing about those women that had any resemblece of what I thought of as being Apostolic. This ultra conservative pastor even locked the doors of the church when church began. I am glad that there was never a fire. People would have perished.
Anyway, this very strict, ultra con...or maybe I should simply call him a CON, is sitting in prison for among many other crimes...pediphelia. He was a pediphile for years. A neighboring pastor said that he was a homosexual. But this ultra conservative is sitting in prison but LADIES STILL DO NOT WEAR A RING.
Here is a warning: You are going to fall and possibly be broken if you battle in the FLESH. It is only a matter of time. I fear when I see good men who take up the implements of their warfare in the flesh. I know that they are headed for a crash landing. There was such a man on the old forum. He is now permanently banned. I warned him that he was headed for a crash. He did not like me and followed me around everywhere I went trying to belittle me in every way. I would get upset with him, but I knew it was only a matter of time.
The weapons of our warfare are NOT carnal...'nuff said.
There was NOT one ultra-con pastor in that area who would fellowship this man the tales of his sins were known. Back when Bishop Martin was alive at New Bethel he and Roy Rowley disfellowshipped this man then and Bishop Martin died in 71. I do not know of one Apostolic preacher in the area that would fellowship this man who abused his family and others. Some from out of the area may have tried to fellowship him but as soon as they heard they distanced themselves. What does this have to do with wearing a ring I will never know? Are you saying there have been NO homos that wore rings. Sometimes you can be disgusting. And then to drag this other matter as though it vindicates you proves you have an ego as big as a elephant. Pride has more than one shade sir.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 12:37 PM
I knew of a church in Philly (CLJCAF) that kept a yard stick at the church door... to measure 3-4" off the ground to the skirt bottoms. He also, had armorbearers to open doors for him and carry his bible/read etc.
Armorbearers huh?
How so many of these type people love having rule, seeing themselves as God. They crave the trappings of being such a potentate. It is a God complex. I've seen it sooooooo many times.
When men get a God complex, it will ususally surface by passing judgment before its time. They are taking God's place. Watch out of these kind of deceivers. They will wreck souls and families while not spending one waking moment caring in the least, except for the loss of whatever finacial support that might be missing.
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 12:38 PM
I am sorry I posted back to so but this has me heated. Old Paths pastored less than 20 miles from this guy and NEVER fellowshipped him or anyone who did fellowship him. The UPC, AMF, or and reputible GIB would NEVER fellowship this homo. Pastors tried for years in vain to get the authorities to do something about the situation.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 12:43 PM
There was NOT one ultra-con pastor in that area who would fellowship this man the tales of his sins were known. Back when Bishop Martin was alive at New Bethel he and Roy Rowley disfellowshipped this man then and Bishop Martin died in 71. I do not know of one Apostolic preacher in the area that would fellowship this man who abused his family and others. Some from out of the area may have tried to fellowship him but as soon as they heard they distanced themselves. What does this have to do with wearing a ring I will never know? Are you saying there have been NO homos that wore rings. Sometimes you can be disgusting. And then to drag this other matter as though it vindicates you proves you have an ego as big as a elephant. Pride has more than one shade sir.
Don't get hot over this. It's not worth it.
My point is, when you battle in the flesh, you are headed for a fall. This is probably the most classical example that I could think of at the moment. I could certainly recount many of such cases as this.
Ego as big as an elephant? HA!
Ok, I accept your judgment. But what has that got to do with the facts.
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 12:54 PM
Don't get hot over this. It's not worth it.
My point is, when you battle in the flesh, you are headed for a fall. This is probably the most classical example that I could think of at the moment. I could certainly recount many of such cases as this.
Ego as big as an elephant? HA!
Ok, I accept your judgment. But what has that got to do with the facts.
There are NO FACTS this guy was lulu from day 1 and everyone who knew him avoided him like the plague and guys who did not know him after a trip or two they learned him and dropped him. He was NEVER part of any fellowship I know of organized or independent. I know tale after tale of liberal guys that did not believe water was wet and were perverts just like this pervert and yes some of them are in prison. His poor folks did look pitiful strong holiness churches in the area thought the same thing. He had no sympathy from them. He was not fellowshipped by his home church or men he grew up with.
To use this extreme case as an example is a red herring and you know it.
My first language is German (PA Dutch) I spent the first 16 years of my life in a buggy behind a horse. I dream in Amish. What esle do you want?
Brother,
Do You know anything about the UPC's Mennonite
seminar that was held a couple years ago?
That must have been interesting.
How do You teach true Holiness to Mennonites?
Nina
Hoovie
05-21-2007, 01:19 PM
Brother,
Do You know anything about the UPC's Mennonite
seminar that was held a couple years ago?
That must have been interesting.
How do You teach true Holiness to Mennonites?
Nina
I only went to one - but it has become an annual event. I have a bit of a problem with the ministry title, Amish and Mennonite Ministeries.... It is a bit strange, considering we don't have "Baptist Ministeries" or "AOG Ministeries".
I suppose I should be voicing this criticizm somewher else...
How do You teach true Holiness to Mennonites? I am not sure what you are asking here... The Mennonite/Amish people are like other denominations in that some have more genuine "holiness" than others.
It is a common misconception that all Mennonites are ultra conservative "plain people". While it is true of most Amish, the Mennonites have many denominations and most do not practice ultraconservative dress.
In my case I was Old Order Mennonite. I know many very fine Christians in the Mennonite Church.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 01:27 PM
There are NO FACTS this guy was lulu from day 1 and everyone who knew him avoided him like the plague and guys who did not know him after a trip or two they learned him and dropped him. He was NEVER part of any fellowship I know of organized or independent. I know tale after tale of liberal guys that did not believe water was wet and were perverts just like this pervert and yes some of them are in prison. His poor folks did look pitiful strong holiness churches in the area thought the same thing. He had no sympathy from them. He was not fellowshipped by his home church or men he grew up with.
To use this extreme case as an example is a red herring and you know it.
Indeed it is an extreme case but not meant as a red herring. But, since I did not mention any names such as Elder Martin, consider how he fell from his lofty stance of ultra con weapons of carnal warfare.
Not only Elder Martin, whom I loved and appreciated too, I could name many mighty who have fallen leaning on the flesh.
Now, about my ego. Big as an Elephant, huh? :lol
I only went to one - but it has become an annual event. I have a bit of a problem with the ministry title, Amish and Mennonite Ministeries.... It is a bit strange, considering we don't have "Baptist Ministeries" or "AOG Ministeries".
I suppose I should be voicing this criticizm somewher else...
How do You teach true Holiness to Mennonites? I am not sure what you are asking here... The Mennonite/Amish people are like other denominations in that some have more genuine "holiness" than others.
It is a common misconception that all Mennonites are ultra conservative "plain people". While it is true of most Amish, the Mennonites have many denominations and most do not practice ultraconservative dress.
In my case I was Old Order Mennonite. I know many very fine Christians in the Mennonite Church.
Thanks for the reply as I had wondered about it.
I also wondered what the plain people think about the accepted 21st century UPC "Standards"
Seems there would be cultural shock.
Do they usually retain their caps?
Do they embrace more fashionable apparel?
Are their standards allowed to be kept and are they respected?
Thanks,
Nina
Hoovie
05-21-2007, 02:09 PM
Thanks for the reply as I had wondered about it.
I also wondered what the plain people think about the accepted 21st century UPC "Standards"
Seems there would be cultural shock.
Do they usually retain their caps?
Do they embrace more fashionable apparel?
Are their standards allowed to be kept and are they respected?
Thanks,
Nina
Yes and no. Some have joined existing Oneness denominations while some others have continued living as Amish and even started a few OP Amish type fellowships.
I have to say... the total numbers of those who have embraced OPare not that great.
I knew of a church in Philly (CLJCAF) that kept a yard stick at the church door... to measure 3-4" off the ground to the skirt bottoms. He also, had armorbearers to open doors for him and carry his bible/read etc.
Armorbearers huh?
How so many of these type people love having rule, seeing themselves as God. They crave the trappings of being such a potentate. It is a God complex. I've seen it sooooooo many times.
When men get a God complex, it will ususally surface by passing judgment before its time. They are taking God's place. Watch out of these kind of deceivers. They will wreck souls and families while not spending one waking moment caring in the least, except for the loss of whatever finacial support that might be missing.I have seen the "God complex," but also have seen those who did it because they desired to assist the men and women of God and carried their Bible/brief case and such.
I remember Bishop William Bonner tell about while just a young man he followed Bishop RC Lawson around and carried his Bible and eventually became his driver.
It was not Bishop Lawson demanding this attention, rather it was a young man desiring to be up under the man of God.
We must remember that when describing Elisha, the servant could have mentioned any number of great accomplishments, but he reached back and said, "You remember him...he's the one who poured water for Elijah."
Just my thoughts...
rrford
05-21-2007, 02:42 PM
Good.
Or you will know them by the lack of a ring?
HA!
Seems like you always support the wrong folks at the wrong time. Do you really agree with her that I preach "another Gospel?"
rrford
05-21-2007, 02:43 PM
Prove where in the word of God it say you'll know them by their outward dress???
You preach another gospel, another way~
You have little scriptural understanding and make too many assumptions.
Further, your repsonse basically calls me accursed. WHy am I not surprised?
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 02:53 PM
Seems like you always support the wrong folks at the wrong time. Do you really agree with her that I preach "another Gospel?"
I was only responding to a general statement. If her remark was in answer to or an objection to something that you had said, I did not have that in mind. I only had in mind this one statement.
But, I do support the "wrong" people, whoever they are. Guilty as charged.
Old Paths
05-21-2007, 02:59 PM
I am sorry I posted back to so but this has me heated. Old Paths pastored less than 20 miles from this guy and NEVER fellowshipped him or anyone who did fellowship him. The UPC, AMF, or and reputible GIB would NEVER fellowship this homo. Pastors tried for years in vain to get the authorities to do something about the situation.
Amen to NO fellowship with him and I told him to his face.
I did work in the recovery of two families that had family members that were abused by the man.
Also, I personally talked with the county prosecutor about him and appeared in court at his request, though that case was dropped.
rrford
05-21-2007, 02:59 PM
I was only responding to a general statement. If her remark was in answer to or an objection to something that you had said, I did not have that in mind. I only had in mind this one statement.
But, I do support the "wrong" people, whoever they are. Guilty as charged.
She was responding directly to me. (And basing her response on an incorrect and misguided assumption at that.) By now I have become used to her anti- UPC posts. Just a little surprised at your quick suppport of her blanket statement that could be twisted 40 ways from Dallas to Shreveport.
God Bless
Old Paths
05-21-2007, 03:01 PM
She was responding directly to me. (And basing her response on an incorrect and misguided assumption at that.) By now I have become used to her anti- UPC posts. Just a little surprised at your quick suppport of her blanket statement that could be twisted 40 ways from Dallas to Shreveport.
God Bless
Surprised?
Don't you sign the "affirmation from hell"?
J/K
:D
rrford
05-21-2007, 03:03 PM
Surprised?
Don't you sign the "affirmation from hell"?
J/K
:D
LOL! Indeed I do and I have no remorse in doing so. No different to me than getting a new drivers license every few years.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 03:05 PM
She was responding directly to me. (And basing her response on an incorrect and misguided assumption at that.) By now I have become used to her anti- UPC posts. Just a little surprised at your quick suppport of her blanket statement that could be twisted 40 ways from Dallas to Shreveport.
God Bless
From Dallas to Shreveport, huh?
Does the girl have you on the ropes? I was not responding to any anti-UPC statement. Just that one which struck me as significant.
I never support everyone on everything they say simply because I respond to one snipit of a remark. That should be understood about all of us.
Old Paths
05-21-2007, 03:06 PM
LOL! Indeed I do and I have no remorse in doing so. No different to me than getting a new drivers license every few years.
I would have ZERO problem signing it and as far as I know have never preached for a Brother that would have a problem signing it.
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 03:06 PM
Indeed it is an extreme case but not meant as a red herring. But, since I did not mention any names such as Elder Martin, consider how he fell from his lofty stance of ultra con weapons of carnal warfare.
Not only Elder Martin, whom I loved and appreciated too, I could name many mighty who have fallen leaning on the flesh.
Now, about my ego. Big as an Elephant, huh? :lol
Carroll Martin was not able to keep his testimony on trusting God for hid healing but he did lay sick for over a year and if you knew him then you know the agonies he suffered. I do not excuse him but he did not fall into sin. He fell because of a stand on divine healing.
rrford
05-21-2007, 03:09 PM
From Dallas to Shreveport, huh?
Does the girl have you on the ropes? I was not responding to any anti-UPC statement. Just that one which struck me as significant.
I never support everyone on everything they say simply because I respond to one snipit of a remark. That should be understood about all of us.
Bro. Strange,
The post you replied to specifically stated that I preach another Gospel. That was my concern. Perhaps highlighting your point of agreement would keep folks like me questioning which part you are actually responding to.
The day someone such as her has me on the ropes is the day I need to ring the bell and count myself out. It just ain't gonna happen. :killinme
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 03:10 PM
LOL! Indeed I do and I have no remorse in doing so. No different to me than getting a new drivers license every few years.
I am not UPC and folks may even feel I am anti-UPC but the problem with the whole issue is 'strange' to me the AS has nothing in it than the original license
application did? They signed to get the license then fuss over the AS??? It is beyond me. Now I understand The Atlantic district did not have to that originally they took them as a group but the rest did.
Old Paths
05-21-2007, 03:13 PM
Carroll Martin was not able to keep his testimony on trusting God for hid healing but he did lay sick for over a year and if you knew him then you know the agonies he suffered. I do not excuse him but he did not fall into sin. He fell because of a stand on divine healing.
Carrol Martin was an APOSTOLIC preacher that died an APOSTOLIC preacher.
He never let down on the Godhead, NB, Holiness or separation.
His life was clean.
So God didn't heal him like he thought He would/could makes no difference to me about his life and his Message.
Truly Blessed
05-21-2007, 03:14 PM
I am not UPC and folks may even feel I am anti-UPC but the problem with the whole issue is 'strange' to me the AS has nothing in it than the original license
application did? They signed to get the license then fuss over the AS??? It is beyond me. Now I understand The Atlantic district did not have to that originally they took them as a group but the rest did.I'm glad you recognized the point about the Atlantic District.
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 03:17 PM
Since Bro. Strange has decided to tell how ultra-con's strictness makes them go bad I will share(as the Charismatics say) a story. The place is Lansing, Ill. the church is a large Apostolic church where the pastor mocked folks who preached against television and YES they all wore rings. And they also locked the doors when they were having church and at certain times some of the men anf women were excused to go to the basement where they had orgies called 'love feasts.' They from time to time turn the lights off in the sanctuary and touch each other. The pastor summons women up and kissed them on the platform. Eventually couple after couple swapped companions in the church including the pastor and his wife and his son and his wife. Sold the church and took their commune to the Northwest. So this proves Apostolics who wear rings and have television will go into free love. When men become depraved it matters NOT what camp they are in.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 03:17 PM
Carroll Martin was not able to keep his testimony on trusting God for hid healing but he did lay sick for over a year and if you knew him then you know the agonies he suffered. I do not excuse him but he did not fall into sin. He fell because of a stand on divine healing.
Elder Matin was a good man.
As he lay dying in the hospital, the man did a lot of repenting and begging for forgiveness. A dear man that he was. He just leaned too strongly upon the implements of the flesh.... This is my point.
The stronger one resists in the flesh, by the same proportion are they drawn to the very thing that they fight the hardest. It is an inviolable rule of the flesh. I am so amazed that the ultra cons cannot figure this out. It is one reason that they will eventually fall, except for the grace of God.
Flesh on display is PRIDE. Just what is that goes before a FALL? It happens, not to mention the religious haughty look.
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 03:18 PM
Carrol Martin was an APOSTOLIC preacher that died an APOSTOLIC preacher.
He never let down on the Godhead, NB, Holiness or separation.
His life was clean.
So God didn't heal him like he thought He would/could makes no difference to me about his life and his Message.
And he begged folks on his deathbed to forgive him for failing them. His death was one of the worse I have ever heard bar none.
Subdued
05-21-2007, 03:20 PM
Since Bro. Strange has decided to tell how ultra-con's strictness makes them go bad I will share(as the Charismatics say) a story. The place is Lansing, Ill. the church is a large Apostolic church where the pastor mocked folks who preached against television and YES they all wore rings. And they also locked the doors when they were having church and at certain times some of the men anf women were excused to go to the basement where they had orgies called 'love feasts.' They from time to time turn the lights off in the sanctuary and touch each other. The pastor summons women up and kissed them on the platform. Eventually couple after couple swapped companions in the church including the pastor and his wife and his son and his wife. Sold the church and took their commune to the Northwest. So this proves Apostolics who wear rings and have television will go into free love. When men become depraved it matters NOT what camp they are in.
:eek:
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 03:22 PM
I'm glad you recognized the point about the Atlantic District.
TB I honor you I would not sign something I did not believe no matter what it cost me. I do not have much respect for those who do. But in truth you have to acknowledge the AS only affirmed what the applicant claimed to believe when they signed the apt. Yours and those of the Atlantic district was different but as far as I know that was the only exception.
Old Paths
05-21-2007, 03:22 PM
:hijacked
I was speaking to a religious person today and the topic came up about what the difference is between apostolic and pentecostal. I asked her what she though apostolic meant and she ran down this list....
1. Dresses
2. Uncut Hair
3. No make-up
4. No television
She equates apostolics with legalism. She doesn't equate an apostolic as being a spirit filled believer who operates in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost.
She reinforces what a vast majority of people think about apostolics. There are some who are intellectually dishonest and would want to question the intelligence of this person, but she is a college graduate, has owned a business, and is a very active member of her church.
Can anyone explain again what legalism has to do with the '' apostle's doctrine''? The world isn't buying it one bit.
Back to the original post. :D
Can you imagine the direction this thread would have went IF this would have been the original post?
I was speaking to a religious person today and the topic came up about what the difference is between apostolic and pentecostal. I asked her what she though apostolic meant and she ran down this list....
1. Dresses
2. Uncut Hair
3. No make-up
4. No television
She equates apostolics with uncompromising separation from the world. She doesn't equate an apostolic as being a mean spirited person, but a believer who operates in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost.
She reinforces what a vast majority of people think about apostolics. There are some who are intellectually dishonest and would want to question the intelligence of this person, but she is a college graduate, has owned a business, and is a very active member of her church.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 04:10 PM
Since Bro. Strange has decided to tell how ultra-con's strictness makes them go bad I will share(as the Charismatics say) a story. The place is Lansing, Ill. the church is a large Apostolic church where the pastor mocked folks who preached against television and YES they all wore rings. And they also locked the doors when they were having church and at certain times some of the men anf women were excused to go to the basement where they had orgies called 'love feasts.' They from time to time turn the lights off in the sanctuary and touch each other. The pastor summons women up and kissed them on the platform. Eventually couple after couple swapped companions in the church including the pastor and his wife and his son and his wife. Sold the church and took their commune to the Northwest. So this proves Apostolics who wear rings and have television will go into free love. When men become depraved it matters NOT what camp they are in.
It is true that when men become depraved it matters not what camp that they are in.
Psychologist will tell you that men will harp on their own weakness. They reveal it in the way they resist in the flesh rather than letting the Spirit live within them.
To continually harp on the women folk demanding what is unscriptural, making a minor in the Word of God a major, is telling. A fleshly walk is ultimately doomed to failure.
Did I ever tell you about the ultra con church that was suddenly taken over by a spirit one night and everyone got naked right in the church? They were jumping and shouting until the police wagons came and arrested them all, men and women alike. They got in the police vans still shouting and waving their bibles, though naked.
A lot of antecdotes can be told, though I can personally vouch for very few of them at all. Like the story that you told above, this one is just another anticdote. However, there are some that I am very personally aware of. Nevertheless, this is not my point at all. This is a distraction. My point is, a walk in the flesh by exalting the flesh in PRIDE is doomed for failure.
StillStanding
05-21-2007, 04:24 PM
Since Bro. Strange has decided to tell how ultra-con's strictness makes them go bad I will share(as the Charismatics say) a story. The place is Lansing, Ill. the church is a large Apostolic church where the pastor mocked folks who preached against television and YES they all wore rings. And they also locked the doors when they were having church and at certain times some of the men anf women were excused to go to the basement where they had orgies called 'love feasts.' They from time to time turn the lights off in the sanctuary and touch each other. The pastor summons women up and kissed them on the platform. Eventually couple after couple swapped companions in the church including the pastor and his wife and his son and his wife. Sold the church and took their commune to the Northwest. So this proves Apostolics who wear rings and have television will go into free love. When men become depraved it matters NOT what camp they are in.
I remember this happening as a kid raised in the Chicago area. I believe my father was presbyter of the section that this pastor was in! They had spritual spouses which they had human sex with! :eek:
Old Paths
05-21-2007, 04:57 PM
Elder Matin was a good man.
As he lay dying in the hospital, the man did a lot of repenting and begging for forgiveness. A dear man that he was. He just leaned too strongly upon the implements of the flesh.... This is my point.
The stronger one resists in the flesh, by the same proportion are they drawn to the very thing that they fight the hardest. It is an inviolable rule of the flesh. I am so amazed that the ultra cons cannot figure this out. It is one reason that they will eventually fall, except for the grace of God.
Flesh on display is PRIDE. Just what is that goes before a FALL? It happens, not to mention the religious haughty look.
Would you please elaborate on the bolded?
Carroll Martin was not able to keep his testimony on trusting God for hid healing but he did lay sick for over a year and if you knew him then you know the agonies he suffered. I do not excuse him but he did not fall into sin. He fell because of a stand on divine healing.
Elder ... I hope you are not suggesting because this man got gravely sick somehow he was not trusting God ... we will all die of something .... sickness is a result of sin in all of us ....
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 05:07 PM
I remember this happening as a kid raised in the Chicago area. I believe my father was presbyter of the section that this pastor was in! They had spritual spouses which they had human sex with! :eek:
CH was NOT a con in any sense of the word. II met several of those folks who survived and their children were destroyed some of them went with him after they had traded wives. So being strict is not the criteria for being a pervert. Thsi man commanded his own wife to have sex with another man while he watched. A pervert all the way. Yet before he went nuts he had around 400 solid people that were extremely loyal to him.
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 05:13 PM
Elder ... I hope you are not suggesting because this man got gravely sick somehow he was not trusting God ... we will all die of something .... sickness is a result of sin in all of us ....
No they preached against going to the doctor they had their babies at home, pulled their own teeth. This man got sick and died a horrible death it si so gross I cannot even post it on here. But after about a year of living in pure Hell went gave in and went to the hospital and died less than 36 hours. He died repenting he had went after preaching this for years and having a cementary full of young mothers and babies who had died in child birth. I believe the man was saved but everything he had stood for he lost personally because of this. They mended broken bones, sewed up wounds with fishing line they really practiced this. I think the whole thing is foolish however they did it. And only a very few preachers that preached this died their testimony Elder Roy Rowley was one.
Didn't something like this Happen in Indiana a few Years back ???
I can't remember the morbid details but I remember some weird things going on. All I can remember was it was Absolutley unthinkable behind all understanding
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 05:19 PM
Didn't something like this Happen in Indiana a few Years back ???
I can't remember the morbid details but I remember some weird things going on. All I can remember was it was Absolutley unthinkable behind all understanding
Yep.
Yep.
refresh my memory on this incident please
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 05:21 PM
Would you please elaborate on the bolded?
Without my commentary, read Gal 5:16 through the end of the chapter. Try reading it without traditional ultra con interpretation while remaining in context with the previous two chapters. My own commentary means little to nothing. It is just another opinion among many.
Glenda B
05-21-2007, 05:34 PM
Carroll Martin was not able to keep his testimony on trusting God for hid healing but he did lay sick for over a year and if you knew him then you know the agonies he suffered. I do not excuse him but he did not fall into sin. He fell because of a stand on divine healing.
It sounds like you men are all to familiar with New Bethel, and
The Valley Of The Kings.
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 06:09 PM
It sounds like you men are all to familiar with New Bethel, and
The Valley Of The Kings.
I am very familiar with the area.
refresh my memory on this incident please
BUMP
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 06:15 PM
BUMP
A lady died she wasn't very old. Also a young lady lost her baby and nearly died and will not be able to have children. Very sad.
StillStanding
05-21-2007, 06:16 PM
CH was NOT a con in any sense of the word. II met several of those folks who survived and their children were destroyed some of them went with him after they had traded wives. So being strict is not the criteria for being a pervert. Thsi man commanded his own wife to have sex with another man while he watched. A pervert all the way. Yet before he went nuts he had around 400 solid people that were extremely loyal to him.
I remember attending fellowship meetings in his church. They did have a good size congregation!
A lady died she wasn't very old. Also a young lady lost her baby and nearly died and will not be able to have children. Very sad.
Why were able to bring up and tell about the other but not this one ?
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 06:22 PM
I remember attending fellowship meetings in his church. They did have a good size congregation!
The buidling was probably one of the most beautiful buildings in Pentecost at that time. They spared nothing. The guy was on radio 7 days a week and a very good teacher. What a shame and those people who survived were really scared. My father's cousin pastored an independent Oneness church in Hammond and some of those folks wound up there they were so sad. I remember going to some services there as a boy before he went nuts. They were very formal but he was an excellent preacher. It wasn't a strong holiness church honestly it was worldly.
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 06:24 PM
Why were able to bring up and tell about the other but not this one ?
Elder Martin is dead and has been for 30 years and over the case is not so with this one.
Elder Martin is dead and has been for 30 years and over the case is not so with this one.
well FINE then I'll just get someone else to refresh the story to me :club
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 06:29 PM
well FINE then I'll just get someone else to refresh the story to me :club
Your friends in Ark. could tell you all about it.:drseuss
Your friends in Ark. could tell you all about it.:drseuss
How'd you know that ????
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 06:35 PM
How'd you know that ????
I know them and they know the folks in Indiana simple. Not using a gift of the Spirit just using my head.
I know them and they know the folks in Indiana simple. Not using a gift of the Spirit just using my head.
No sense in getting frustrated over it. I remember hearing the whole ordeal and the it was "shock and awe" to the extreme. I'll just take this conversation elsewhere then
Old Paths
05-21-2007, 06:51 PM
Without my commentary, read Gal 5:16 through the end of the chapter. Try reading it without traditional ultra con interpretation while remaining in context with the previous two chapters. My own commentary means little to nothing. It is just another opinion among many.
Just as I figured.
The cranky Men have arrived ...Run Run Run ! ! ! !
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 06:54 PM
Just I figured.
Now, just what did you figure, OP?
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 06:55 PM
No sense in getting frustrated over it. I remember hearing the whole ordeal and the it was "shock and awe" to the extreme. I'll just take this conversation elsewhere then
I am not getting frustrated you took it wrong. All these folks are very much alive the pain is fresh and I don't know who all is on thei forum and I have no desire to add misery to their wounds.
Old Paths
05-21-2007, 06:56 PM
It sounds like you men are all to familiar with New Bethel, and
The Valley Of The Kings.
More New Bethel than the VotK for me.
Only been by the VotK.
Never been inside.
Old Paths
05-21-2007, 07:01 PM
Elder Matin was a good man.
As he lay dying in the hospital, the man did a lot of repenting and begging for forgiveness. A dear man that he was. He just leaned too strongly upon the implements of the flesh.... This is my point.
The stronger one resists in the flesh, by the same proportion are they drawn to the very thing that they fight the hardest. It is an inviolable rule of the flesh. I am so amazed that the ultra cons cannot figure this out. It is one reason that they will eventually fall, except for the grace of God.
Flesh on display is PRIDE. Just what is that goes before a FALL? It happens, not to mention the religious haughty look.
Would you please elaborate on the bolded?
Without my commentary, read Gal 5:16 through the end of the chapter. Try reading it without traditional ultra con interpretation while remaining in context with the previous two chapters. My own commentary means little to nothing. It is just another opinion among many.
Just as I figured.
Now, just what did you figure, OP?
I figured that you really didn't know CM and that you were giving commentary based on someone else's view.
Maybe I'm wrong and your were his buddy.
If so I apologize.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 07:09 PM
I figured that you really didn't know CM and that you were giving commentary based on someone else's view.
Maybe I'm wrong and your were his buddy.
If so I apologize.
Your apologize is accepted.
I knew Carol Martin quite well. I knew many of the preachers associated with him.
In fact, a notable UPC pastor here in Houston, from Biloxi, had a brother, now deceased who, with his family attended there. I knew several other of the saints that was there, most of their names are now long since forgotten.
Why did you think that I said that I was "his buddy?" Where did that come from? No! I was NEVER his buddy. Nor would I have wanted to be HIS BUDDY. Good grief! He was a good man though. He really loved the Lord and wanted to do the right thing.
Old Paths
05-21-2007, 07:12 PM
Your apologize is accepted.
I knew Carol Martin quite well. I knew many of the preachers associated with him.
In fact, a notable UPC pastor here in Houston, from Biloxi, had a brother, now deceased who, with his family attended there. I knew several other of the saints that was there, most of their names are now long since forgotten.
When you say you knew the Bishop well, did you attend services while he pastored at New Bethel?
j/w
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 07:16 PM
When you say you knew the Bishop well, did you attend services while he pastored at New Bethel?
j/w
Yes I did.
I attended there in the 60s a number of times. I used to know everyone out there at one time. Goodness, that was 40 years ago or more.
btw, I added to my post a little above.
Old Paths
05-21-2007, 07:41 PM
Yes I did.
I attended there in the 60s a number of times. I used to know everyone out there at one time. Goodness, that was 40 years ago or more.
btw, I added to my post a little above.
Thanks.
I too attended and preached at NB back in the late 60s when the Bishop was still pastoring there.
I knew "the notable UPC pastor from Houston" and his brothers also.
I didn't say you were his buddy, I said "Maybe I'm wrong and (maybe) your were his buddy".
You know, MAYBE you were his buddy.
Anyway...
Just one "cranky man" to another.
Hee heeeeeeeeee
There is more reality in Alice in Wonderland than the myth portrayed in this in this post. Keep believing most people think apostolics are God fearing people. Keep believing your televisions are moitors. Keep believing the internet is less harmful than television. Make up some hypothetical what ifs. It's what your movement prides itself on.
:hijacked
Back to the original post. :D
Can you imagine the direction this thread would have went IF this would have been the original post?
I was speaking to a religious person today and the topic came up about what the difference is between apostolic and pentecostal. I asked her what she though apostolic meant and she ran down this list....
1. Dresses
2. Uncut Hair
3. No make-up
4. No television
She equates apostolics with uncompromising separation from the world. She doesn't equate an apostolic as being a mean spirited person, but a believer who operates in the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost.
She reinforces what a vast majority of people think about apostolics. There are some who are intellectually dishonest and would want to question the intelligence of this person, but she is a college graduate, has owned a business, and is a very active member of her church.
Old Paths
05-21-2007, 10:23 PM
There is more reality in Alice in Wonderland than the myth portrayed in this in this post. Keep believing most people think apostolics are God fearing people. Keep believing your televisions are moitors. Keep believing the internet is less harmful than television. Make up some hypothetical what ifs. It's what your movement prides itself on.
Just as I suspected.
Trash conservatives with faulty reasoning.
:laffatu
There is more reality in Alice in Wonderland than the myth portrayed in this in this post. Keep believing most people think apostolics are God fearing people. Keep believing your televisions are moitors. Keep believing the internet is less harmful than television. Make up some hypothetical what ifs. It's what your movement prides itself on.
now, when you say "YOUR MOVEMENT", are you saying that you yourself are not also Apostolic ???
I differ with you if you are saying that most people believe apostolics are not God fearing, law abiding, loyal to our country etc .. type of people.
I do have a problem with those who say the internet is harmless. I work for a church and grew up in a pastor's home. seen Too too much to ever buy that
Just as I suspected. You can deflect the truth, but you can't handle the truth. THe dilusion of legalism has been around for over 2000 years. Can't explain the hit and run tactics. Keep making random statements without backing them up. At least my comments are rooted in reality.
Just as I suspected.
Trash conservatives with faulty reasoning.
:laffatu
Thad,
I'll save you time from extracting my views which are scattere all over the place. I would suggest if have time, please read the first post of this thread. It may explain the perception of apostolics to the general public and give you an idea of why the thread was started.
What that lady observed about apostolics is a common observation in the four corners of the earth.
The word apostolic is not defined in the Bible. THe only definitions we have are made man definitions based on personal perspective of that apostolic should mean.
Some labels that are clearly defined in the Bible are believers, disciples, christians and sinners.
As evident by this thread and others on similar topics labelling oneself as an apostolic only serves to gratify the ego. An apostolic identity doesn't mean anything to God.
Since apostolic is a self serving label with no biblical definition, I cannot in all good conciense say I am an apostolic. There is nothing in scripture that says this makes one apostolic.quote=Thad;122884]now, when you say "YOUR MOVEMENT", are you saying that you yourself are not also Apostolic ???
I differ with you if you are saying that most people believe apostolics are God fearing, law abiding , loyal to our country etc .. type of people.
I do have a problem with those who say the internet is harmless. I work for a church and gerw up in a pastor's homw. seen Too too much to ever buy that[/quote]
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 10:46 PM
Thad,
I'll save you time from extracting my views which are scattere all over the place. I would suggest if have time, please read the first post of this thread. It may explain the perception of apostolics to the general public and give you an idea of why the thread was started.
What that lady observed about apostolics is a common observation in the four corners of the earth.
The word apostolic is not defined in the Bible. THe only definitions we have are made man definitions based on personal perspective of that apostolic should mean.
Some labels that are clearly defined in the Bible are believers, disciples, christians and sinners.
As evident by this thread and others on similar topics labelling oneself as an apostolic only serves to gratify the ego. An apostolic identity doesn't mean anything to God.
Since apostolic is a self serving label with no biblical definition, I cannot in all good conciense say I am an apostolic. There is nothing in scripture that says this makes one apostolic.quote=Thad;122884]now, when you say "YOUR MOVEMENT", are you saying that you yourself are not also Apostolic ???
I differ with you if you are saying that most people believe apostolics are God fearing, law abiding , loyal to our country etc .. type of people.
I do have a problem with those who say the internet is harmless. I work for a church and gerw up in a pastor's homw. seen Too too much to ever buy that[/QUOTE]
Then you are NOT an Apostolic?????????????????????
I refuse to define my relationship with Christ with a self-serving subjective label. I'll save that for people who need the crutch of a label to carve out an identity.
CupCake
05-22-2007, 09:05 AM
Brother,
Do You know anything about the UPC's Mennonite
seminar that was held a couple years ago?
That must have been interesting.
How do You teach true Holiness to Mennonites?
Nina
What about the LDS groups who are polygamist . They look Apostolic/ Pentecostals, when we first moved to UT our neighbors thought we were apart of a LDS polygamist . When we sat down and talk to them they had no ideal what an Apostolic/ Pentecost looked like. So I rather not look or be mistaken as a LDS polygamist ~
http://media.canada.com/idl/ntnp/20060113/290449-101056.jpg
mother and child near the polygamist colony
http://www.uncorrelated.com/images/polygamy2.jpg
Steve Epley
05-22-2007, 09:14 AM
What about the LDS groups who are polygamist . They look Apostolic/ Pentecostals, when we first moved to UT our neighbors thought we were apart of a LDS polygamist . When we sat down and talk to them they had no ideal what an Apostolic/ Pentecost looked like. So I rather not look or be mistaken as a LDS polygamist ~
http://media.canada.com/idl/ntnp/20060113/290449-101056.jpg
mother and child near the polygamist colony
http://www.uncorrelated.com/images/polygamy2.jpg
We have Weslyean groups here that dress according to Biblical edicts but are NOT saved because that have not been born again and some look better than some Pentecostals in the area. However folks do know they profess Christ by their look even though they may not. So the polygamist look godly and are not everyone looked like that 75 years ago.
CupCake
05-22-2007, 09:25 AM
You have little scriptural understanding and make too many assumptions.
Further, your repsonse basically calls me accursed. WHy am I not surprised?
First I didn't accuse you of anything, I ASK FOR YOU TO GIVE PROOF WHERE THE BIBLE TEACHES SUCH A MESSAGE!
So wise one give scripture for this teaching of outward clothing as God sign and salvation one at that ???
Not a good thing when you add and take from the word~YOU REALLY DO TEACH ANOTHER WAY, ANOTHER GOSPEL~
Last, I'm not surprise~ GoodDay~
Steve Epley
05-22-2007, 09:28 AM
First I didn't accuse you of anything, I ASK FOR YOU TO GIVE PROOF WHERE THE BIBLE TEACHES SUCH A MESSAGE!
So wise one give scripture for this teaching of outward clothing as God sign and salvation one at that ???
Not a good thing when you add and take from the word~YOU REALLY DO TEACH ANOTHER WAY, ANOTHER GOSPEL~
Last, I'm not surprise~ GoodDay~
This is no doubt why Paul said "women are to learn in silence":happydance :woohoo :dancing :amen And we are NOT suprized either. So NO suprizes today there rarely are any suprizes on here.:heeheehee
CupCake
05-22-2007, 09:30 AM
She was responding directly to me. (And basing her response on an incorrect and misguided assumption at that.) By now I have become used to her anti- UPC posts. Just a little surprised at your quick suppport of her blanket statement that could be twisted 40 ways from Dallas to Shreveport.
God Bless
Excuse me, but I didn't say anything about UPC. I ASK YOU TO PROVE AN UNTRUTH THAT IS TAUGHT AS A TRUTH, THAT'S ALL~
CupCake
05-22-2007, 09:30 AM
This is no doubt why Paul said "women are to learn in silence":happydance :woohoo :dancing :amen And we are NOT suprized either. So NO suprizes today there rarely are any suprizes on here.:heeheehee
Still no proof~
Steve Epley
05-22-2007, 09:32 AM
Excuse me, but I didn't say anything about UPC. I ASK YOU TO PROVE AN UNTRUTH THAT IS TAUGHT AS A TRUTH, THAT'S ALL~
This issue has been proven over and over but none are as blind as those who will NOT see. Emulate Tammy Faye & Jan and dispise saints have at it.
CupCake
05-22-2007, 09:40 AM
We have Weslyean groups here that dress according to Biblical edicts but are NOT saved because that have not been born again and some look better than some Pentecostals in the area. However folks do know they profess Christ by their look even though they may not. So the polygamist look godly and are not everyone looked like that 75 years ago.
Steve~ As I have said in the past I really have no issues with you. No I do not agree with you, but your the only one who been honest enough to say, "Yes I believe and teach the dress issues is heaven or hell'! You don't twist or dance around when ask like many here do, and for that I respect you.
Steve Epley
05-22-2007, 09:43 AM
Steve~ As I have said in the past I really have no issues with you. No I do not agree with you, but your the only one who been honest enough to say, "Yes I believe and teach the dress issues is heaven or hell'! You don't twist or dance around when ask like many hear do, and for that I respect you.
Thank you and yes I do believe what preach at home and abroad. Might not agree but never misunderstood.:bubble
CupCake
05-22-2007, 09:52 AM
Thank you and yes I do believe what preach at home and abroad. Might not agree but never misunderstood.:bubble
Your very welcome Sir~I really do respect your honesty.
No one is suggesting anyone look like Tammy Faye & Jan. Relying on extremes to prove your point proves your point is shaky... at best.
This issue has been proven over and over but none are as blind as those who will NOT see. Emulate Tammy Faye & Jan and dispise saints have at it.
rrford
05-22-2007, 04:13 PM
First I didn't accuse you of anything, I ASK FOR YOU TO GIVE PROOF WHERE THE BIBLE TEACHES SUCH A MESSAGE!
So wise one give scripture for this teaching of outward clothing as God sign and salvation one at that ???
Not a good thing when you add and take from the word~YOU REALLY DO TEACH ANOTHER WAY, ANOTHER GOSPEL~
Last, I'm not surprise~ GoodDay~
Keep your eye on the ball.
When you STATE that I preach another Gospel you are indeed accusing me of heresy and therfore, according to scripture I would be accursed.
Perhaps going beyond a primary level of reasoning when you post would allow you to see how some statements lead to obvious conclusions?
BTW, it is unwise to judge what I preach when you have no idea what I preach. Which is exactly what you did. Of course I doubt you will see it that way.
There are a couple of conservative minded people that posted who understood the theme of this thread was not to bash standards but to bring to awareness of the dillusion of what we think an apostolic is and what the perception of an apostolic is. There is a huge gap between the two groups.
This should be a time for introspection anyone who wears an apostolic label. Unfortunately self-denial supercedes common sense. The perception the world has of apostolics is not because they are ignorant or in the dark. The world's perception of apostolic comes from years of observed behavior.
rrford
05-22-2007, 04:26 PM
There are a couple of conservative minded people that posted who understood the theme of this thread was not to bash standards but to bring to awareness of the dillusion of what we think an apostolic is and what the perception of an apostolic is. There is a huge gap between the two groups.
This should be a time for introspection anyone who wears an apostolic label. Unfortunately self-denial supercedes common sense. The perception the world has of apostolics is not because they are ignorant or in the dark. The world's perception of apostolic comes from years of observed behavior.
Okay. Wait a second. The world, on the one hand, does not know what Apostolic means but on the other hand they have observed years of behavior?
Which is it? They do know or they don't know?
And please do not take some of our answers as self-denial superceding common sense. The real common sense is knowing that subjects such as this never get a fair hearing around here. I learned long ago on FCF that to discuss specific standards was futile. Trying to discuss a subjective term such as "apostolic" is just as futile, IMO.
I'll repeat it again. The point of this thread is to say what the world sees as apostolic is different than what those who claim to be apostolic. I've stated from the beginning it is a matter of perception. There is no inconsistencies with my posts.
In my own opinion, apostolic is a subjective term thus no opinioin from me what apostolic is or isn't. I'm passing along what the world sees as an apostolic. What they see define as an apostolic is far diffierent than what apostolics define.
Refer to Jim Yohe's Believer's Bootcamp. He writes about a Wal-Mart Clerk brush with "apostolic" people in a day to day environment. If I have time later, I'll post some excerpts from the book.
Okay. Wait a second. The world, on the one hand, does not know what Apostolic means but on the other hand they have observed years of behavior?
Which is it? They do know or they don't know?
And please do not take some of our answers as self-denial superceding common sense. The real common sense is knowing that subjects such as this never get a fair hearing around here. I learned long ago on FCF that to discuss specific standards was futile. Trying to discuss a subjective term such as "apostolic" is just as futile, IMO.
Old Paths
05-22-2007, 04:52 PM
I'll repeat it again. The point of this thread is to say what the world sees as apostolic is different than what those who claim to be apostolic. I've stated from the beginning it is a matter of perception. There is no inconsistencies with my posts.
In my own opinion, apostolic is a subjective term thus no opinioin from me what apostolic is or isn't. I'm passing along what the world sees as an apostolic. What they see define as an apostolic is far diffierent than what apostolics define.
Refer to Jim Yohe's Believer's Bootcamp. He writes about a Wal-Mart Clerk brush with "apostolic" people in a day to day environment. If I have time later, I'll post some excerpts from the book.
"The world...."
"They...."
Who is "the world/they" that you speak of?
Is it folks you personaly know, other than the woman you mention in your original post, who is "the world/they"?
Is "the world/they" a cross section survey someone has done?
Just wondering, who in the world is "the world/they"?
The world you ask about is the world you are trying to convince of your spiritual superiority. Observations of apostolics are pretty much universal through out the four corners of the states.
You still are trying to attack the message with out adressing the problem it exposes. There are other posters who have admitted that people have told them the same thing I observed. Jim Yohe makes the same observation in his book Believer's Bootcamp.
Would it suprise you to know that to the world at large, we may be known more for our hypocrisy than for our doctrine? For being ready to strain at their gnats while eagerly swallowing our own camels of inconsistency!... We must be aware that both God and the world are tuned into us even when we aren't tuned into them or Him![
-Jim Yohe's Believer's Bootcamp pg. 225 /QUOTE]
Are you ready to discuss the issue? Or would you rather keep barking with your head tucked between your legs like a little puppy whose been beaten for missing the newspaper?
[quote=Old Paths;123707]"The world...."
"They...."
Who is "the world/they" that you speak of?
Is it folks you personaly know, other than the woman you mention in your original post, who is "the world/they"?
Is "the world/they" a cross section survey someone has done?
Just wondering, who in the world is "the world/they"?
I thought about posting more of the JY article about what wal-mart employees think of apostolics, but I don't think I could handle Old Paths scorching commentary on how stupid wal-mart employees are. Not my idea of an effective rebuttal, but it seems to be the only one he can come up with...
Rhoni
05-22-2007, 09:30 PM
I thought about posting more of the JY article about what wal-mart employees think of apostolics, but I don't think I could handle Old Paths scorching commentary on how stupid wal-mart employees are. Not my idea of an effective rebuttal, but it seems to be the only one he can come up with...
If you can't post with any credibility then just try to destroy the credibility of those who post contrary to your beliefs:lol Good observation TV1a:sing
Blessings, Rhoni
Thnx. It wasn't that difficult.
If you can't post with any credibility then just try to destroy the credibility of those who post contrary to your beliefs:lol Good observation TV1a:sing
Blessings, Rhoni
Old Paths
05-22-2007, 09:37 PM
Carry on with your defense based entirely of what you say the world thinks.
Your arguement is subjective and so can not be proved or disproved.
Carry on.
PS
tv1a YOU said walmart employees were stupid, not me. :D
CupCake
05-22-2007, 09:52 PM
Keep your eye on the ball.
When you STATE that I preach another Gospel you are indeed accusing me of heresy and therfore, according to scripture I would be accursed.
Perhaps going beyond a primary level of reasoning when you post would allow you to see how some statements lead to obvious conclusions?
BTW, it is unwise to judge what I preach when you have no idea what I preach. Which is exactly what you did. Of course I doubt you will see it that way.
Stop dodging the questing and give proof .I'm waitering, been waiting for two years now..Still you dance around like a child who needs to excuse them self .
Last, nor do you know me, yet you feel free to judge~
rrford
05-22-2007, 10:52 PM
Stop dodging the questing and give proof .I'm waitering, been waiting for two years now..Still you dance around like a child who needs to excuse them self .
Last, nor do you know me, yet you feel free to judge~
Whatever. To repeat Epley, "There is no one so blind as the one who will not see."
You didn't keep your eye on the ball.
Coffee99
05-23-2007, 01:52 AM
Perhaps the wrong question has been asked.
Does it matter if others deem you able to wear the label Apolstolic.
I wonder how God sees us? I wonder if He doesn't care more about how we show Him to others than a label?
At the end of the day, I consider myself a Christian. I don't care about the other labels. I just hope I reflect God's love, mercy and changing power in how I represent Him in my daily life, my character, my walk with Him and my actions.
The rest is pointless.
Hoovie
05-23-2007, 06:16 AM
Perhaps the wrong question has been asked.
Does it matter if others deem you able to wear the label Apolstolic.
I wonder how God sees us? I wonder if He doesn't care more about how we show Him to others than a label?
At the end of the day, I consider myself a Christian. I don't care about the other labels. I just hope I reflect God's love, mercy and changing power in how I represent Him in my daily life, my character, my walk with Him and my actions.
The rest is pointless.
Amen.
MrsMcD
05-23-2007, 06:53 AM
Perhaps the wrong question has been asked.
Does it matter if others deem you able to wear the label Apolstolic.
I wonder how God sees us? I wonder if He doesn't care more about how we show Him to others than a label?
At the end of the day, I consider myself a Christian. I don't care about the other labels. I just hope I reflect God's love, mercy and changing power in how I represent Him in my daily life, my character, my walk with Him and my actions.
The rest is pointless.
Great Post! My son was asking me what religion we call ourselves. I immediately said pentecostal. My husband told our son that it doesn't matter what you call yourself but it does matter that you are a Christian and that you live a Christian life. The more I have thought about what my husband's response was, the more I no longer want to label myself with a religious label.
Steve Epley
05-23-2007, 06:57 AM
Great Post! My son was asking me what religion we call ourselves. I immediately said pentecostal. My husband told our son that it doesn't matter what you call yourself but it does matter that you are a Christian and that you live a Christian life. The more I have thought about what my husband's response was, the more I no longer want to label myself with a religious label.
I preached a message once titles this:
I am Apostolic is doctrine
Pentecostal in experience
adn I Hope I am known as an Christian.
Hoovie
05-23-2007, 06:57 AM
Great Post! My son was asking me what religion we call ourselves. I immediately said pentecostal. My husband told our son that it doesn't matter what you call yourself but it does matter that you are a Christian and that you live a Christian life. The more I have thought about what my husband's response was, the more I no longer want to label myself with a religious label.
This will become more and more true as the US enters this post-Christian era.
When agnostics and non-Christian religions will be commonplace.
CupCake
05-23-2007, 10:03 AM
Whatever. To repeat Epley, "There is no one so blind as the one who will not see."
You didn't keep your eye on the ball.
You have no proof, nor does the bible back up your false teaching of man. This is the devil best yet, to get one to think they can change the inward man through dress, as a sign they are righteous before God and man, Sorry Gods not shallow, nor is He fooled ! You preach another gospel another way, other then Christ!
Your so far off the path it's not even funny~ Now once again give proof of bible to back up were it teaches such a thing as dress is salvation, give text .... If it's there this should be easy........
Steve Epley
05-23-2007, 10:05 AM
You have no proof, nor does the bible back up your false teaching of man. This is the devil best yet, to get one to think they can change the outward man through dress, as a sign they are righteous before God and man, Sorry Gods not shallow, nor is He fooled ! You preach another gospel another way, other then Christ!
Have you your meds today????????????????????????
Go for a nice lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng walk and take slow breaths.
CupCake
05-23-2007, 10:09 AM
Have you your meds today????????????????????????
Go for a nice lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng walk and take slow breaths.
GoodDay to you as well~ As for meds, nope always been drug free....
Steve Epley
05-23-2007, 10:09 AM
GoodDay to you as well~ As for meds, nope always been drug free....
Always could start.:heeheehee
CupCake
05-23-2007, 10:10 AM
Always could start.:heeheehee
Truth would also be a good start~
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