PDA

View Full Version : Which works better: lots or fleece?


Timmy
03-01-2012, 12:08 PM
Ever cast lots to find God's will? Ever use a fleece? Tried them both? Which works better?

Amanah
03-01-2012, 12:19 PM
Ever cast lots to find God's will? Ever use a fleece? Tried them both? Which works better?

why don't you test them and let us know?

Timmy
03-01-2012, 12:28 PM
why don't you test them and let us know?

Great idea!

First, since it's easiest, I'll cast a lot. The question will be "Should I go to church?" To be sure it's really God's answer for me, and not random chance, I'll roll a die 10 times. An even number means "yes" and an odd number means "no". God will give me a Yes or No every time. (Random chance might not.)

OK, here we go.

Roll 1: 5.
2: 5. (Again!)
3: 3. (So far, so good.)
4: 2. (Doh!)
5: 2.
6: 6.
7: 2.
8: 1.
9: 2.
10: 3.

It's a tie. 5 odd, 5 even. Now, where am I going to find a fleece?

Amanah
03-01-2012, 12:36 PM
maybe this church can help

Fleece Assembly of God
406 Brown Avenue
Drayton, ND 58225


http://www.draytonnd.com/Organizations/WorshipChurches/FleeceAssemblyofGod/tabid/769/Default.aspx

Timmy
03-01-2012, 12:45 PM
maybe this church can help

Fleece Assembly of God
406 Brown Avenue
Drayton, ND 58225


http://www.draytonnd.com/Organizations/WorshipChurches/FleeceAssemblyofGod/tabid/769/Default.aspx

In North Dakota? So, if the fleece freezes solid, it's a No, and if it's soft and fluffy, it's a Yes? :lol

bbyrd009
03-01-2012, 01:16 PM
Putting out a fleece in the Bible always seems to be treated like testing God, to me?

Amanah
03-01-2012, 01:27 PM
fleece is an OT thing as far as I know, but,
they drew lots in the NT though, didn't they?

Acts 1:24-26

Timmy
03-01-2012, 02:04 PM
Putting out a fleece in the Bible always seems to be treated like testing God, to me?

Yeah, kinda. Gideon used it to find out if God really was planning to do what He already said He would do. But basically, he was asking God a question, and using a fleece to get an answer. Kinda strange, but there ya go.

Timmy
03-01-2012, 02:05 PM
fleece is an OT thing as far as I know, but,
they drew lots in the NT though, didn't they?

Acts 1:24-26

Yeah, lots of lots used, but only one fleece that I recall.

Timmy
03-01-2012, 03:02 PM
So, which works better for you? :)

Amanah
03-01-2012, 04:06 PM
I don't use lots or fleeces, I try to make rational decisions based on what I believe are biblical principles.

Timmy
03-01-2012, 04:18 PM
I don't use lots or fleeces, I try to make rational decisions based on what I believe are biblical principles.

That's cool. But, well, um, what if you're wrong?! ;)

Amanah
03-01-2012, 04:38 PM
The times I have been the most wrong in my life were times I was following flesh and or emotion.

The best times in my life have been when I was following God.

Timmy
03-01-2012, 04:50 PM
The times I have been the most wrong in my life were times I was following flesh and or emotion.

The best times in my life have been when I was following God.

OK. Can't say the same, for me, but like I've said before, if it works for you, that's great! But really, the alternative to following God is not necessarily following flesh or emotion. (Not that you said that, but just sayin'.) One can use common sense, reason, morality, empathy, love, etc. to guide one's actions and interactions with other people, and also for making decisions and plans. Not every unbeliever is a selfish jerk! :)

Amanah
03-01-2012, 05:02 PM
I know that there are moral people who are not Christians. Buddhists, Hindus, and Philosophers are among those that I admire.

I've been a believer since I was very small. In my experience, the times I have made serious mistakes have been when I was not staying true to my relationship to God.

RandyWayne
03-01-2012, 05:36 PM
Ever cast lots to find God's will? Ever use a fleece? Tried them both? Which works better?

There is a third choice.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w113/RandyWayneD/Misc%20pics%20for%20posting%20on%20other%20sites/OuijaMagicHair.jpg

RandyWayne
03-01-2012, 05:37 PM
Some people have reported success using this as well. Although it has proven someone treacherous, so great care needs to be observed while using.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w113/RandyWayneD/Misc%20pics%20for%20posting%20on%20other%20sites/Hellraiser_Box.jpg

bbyrd009
03-01-2012, 08:34 PM
If you're wrong, the fruit will be apparent. If you apply discernment first, you won't be wrong.

Timmy
03-02-2012, 08:38 AM
If you're wrong, the fruit will be apparent. If you apply discernment first, you won't be wrong.

Wrong about what? Apply discernment to what or whom?

Timmy
03-02-2012, 08:39 AM
And there's always:

http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~ssanty/cgi-bin/eightball.cgi

Timmy
03-02-2012, 08:43 AM
And there's always:

http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~ssanty/cgi-bin/eightball.cgi

"Should I go to church?"

http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~ssanty/images/2.gif

Timmy
03-02-2012, 08:44 AM
"Should I go to church?????"

http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~ssanty/images/5.gif

I think I'll ask again again. :lol

Timmy
03-02-2012, 08:52 AM
Sigh. This time, it's http://web.ics.purdue.edu/~ssanty/images/3.gif. OK, fine! I'll go to church! Absolutely maybe some day! http://www.uua.org/

bbyrd009
03-02-2012, 09:52 AM
Ha now you just have to define "church."
Hmm, I guess in today's world, you can also define "go" here, lol.
I believe this stems from the common misunderstanding that a Christian must "go" somewhere to "be in church."
If you aren't in the Church right now, imo, you can't go anywhere to be in church.

Timmy
03-02-2012, 10:30 AM
Ha now you just have to define "church."
Hmm, I guess in today's world, you can also define "go" here, lol.
I believe this stems from the common misunderstanding that a Christian must "go" somewhere to "be in church."
If you aren't in the Church right now, imo, you can't go anywhere to be in church.

I understand the difference between a church and the (universal) church -- that being all the followers of Christ, worldwide. (And what an interesting and diverse group of folks that is! ;)) Of course, I was asking the 8-ball about the former. It doesn't make sense to "go to" the latter. I guess I could ask it if I should join that universal church, again. Should I? (Ask it, I mean! :lol)

Timmy
03-02-2012, 10:33 AM
Funny thing is, a lot of folks here, I bet, wouldn't consider UU to be part of The Church at all. That's kinda why I posted that link, but really, I have been wanting to check one out. The closest one to me isn't very close, but not terribly far, either. If I ever go, I'll be sure and give a full report. ;)

bbyrd009
03-02-2012, 10:39 AM
Oh, um, I didn't mean that one, either; sorry.

Timmy
03-02-2012, 10:45 AM
Oh, um, I didn't mean that one, either; sorry.

Really? What did you mean, then?

bbyrd009
03-02-2012, 11:44 AM
Hmm. The Church to me is just the way you thought things were going to be like as an adult, when you were a little kid. I admit that my 2 visits to a UU church were possibly the closest mirror, but I would not personally confine "Church" to a sect.

I do remember a fairly disturbing interview given by some UU..."pastor," whose every response to the standard salvation questions was "Scripture cannot be counted on as being received from God." So you might want to be selective there. I will say that he came off as quite the idiot, was not able to provide a meaningful answer to a single Q, so the fruit should be apparent.

bbyrd009
03-02-2012, 11:50 AM
I came back here to note that fleece seemed always to come from man, whereas lots and testing come from Scripture? But this may have holes, I'm not that familiar with fleece.

KeptByTheWord
03-02-2012, 12:04 PM
I came back here to note that fleece seemed always to come from man, whereas lots and testing come from Scripture? But this may have holes, I'm not that familiar with fleece.

Fleecing is also scriptural... Gideon laid a fleece out before the Lord..

Judges 6:36-40

36 And Gideon said unto God, If thou wilt save Israel by mine hand, as thou hast said,

37 Behold, I will put a fleece of wool in the floor; [and] if the dew be on the fleece only, and [it be] dry upon all the earth [beside], then shall I know that thou wilt save Israel by mine hand, as thou hast said.

38 And it was so: for he rose up early on the morrow, and thrust the fleece together, and wringed the dew out of the fleece, a bowl full of water.

39 And Gideon said unto God, Let not thine anger be hot against me, and I will speak but this once: let me prove, I pray thee, but this once with the fleece; let it now be dry only upon the fleece, and upon all the ground let there be dew.

40 And God did so that night: for it was dry upon the fleece only, and there was dew on all the ground.

Timmy
03-02-2012, 12:15 PM
Hmm. The Church to me is just the way you thought things were going to be like as an adult, when you were a little kid. I admit that my 2 visits to a UU church were possibly the closest mirror, but I would not personally confine "Church" to a sect.

I do remember a fairly disturbing interview given by some UU..."pastor," whose every response to the standard salvation questions was "Scripture cannot be counted on as being received from God." So you might want to be selective there. I will say that he came off as quite the idiot, was not able to provide a meaningful answer to a single Q, so the fruit should be apparent.

Did he seem like an idiot to you because he said things you disagreed with? Such as "Scripture cannot be counted on as being received from God."? Do you have any examples of unmeaningful answers?

bbyrd009
03-02-2012, 12:57 PM
Fleecing is also scriptural... Gideon laid a fleece out before the Lord..

Judges 6:36-40

36 And Gideon said unto God, If thou wilt save Israel by mine hand, as thou hast said,

37 Behold, I will put a fleece of wool in the floor; [and] if the dew be on the fleece only, and [it be] dry upon all the earth [beside], then shall I know that thou wilt save Israel by mine hand, as thou hast said.

38 And it was so: for he rose up early on the morrow, and thrust the fleece together, and wringed the dew out of the fleece, a bowl full of water.

39 And Gideon said unto God, Let not thine anger be hot against me, and I will speak but this once: let me prove, I pray thee, but this once with the fleece; let it now be dry only upon the fleece, and upon all the ground let there be dew.

40 And God did so that night: for it was dry upon the fleece only, and there was dew on all the ground.

Well, fleece is in Scripture, yes, but invented by Gideon to question what God had already told him? I don't find a treatment of "fleece" in Scripture in the same way that lots or testing of unknown spirits is treated.

Amanah
03-02-2012, 01:02 PM
I noticed that when they cast lots to replace an Apostle, they had 2 good choices lined up but could not decide between them, casting lots seemed to be a way to either make the choice easy, or let God choose.

bbyrd009
03-02-2012, 01:04 PM
Did he seem like an idiot to you because he said things you disagreed with? Such as "Scripture cannot be counted on as being received from God."? Do you have any examples of unmeaningful answers?

Hmm, I'd say he came across poorly more because this answer seemed to preclude any other answer that might even appeal to common sense. His answer to "What might someone who truly seeks to do God's will here on earth focus on?" was the same, paraphrased "Who could possibly know, since Scripture is not direct from God." It was pretty ridiculous.

I don't expect that this guy is representative of UU, btw, this was like 25 years ago, on tv in Houston. Can't imagine he had a job that evening, actually.

KeptByTheWord
03-02-2012, 01:04 PM
Well, fleece is in Scripture, yes, but invented by Gideon to question what God had already told him? I don't find a treatment of "fleece" in Scripture in the same way that lots or testing of unknown spirits is treated.

True, but it is still in scripture...

Not that I really advocate this practice though... as you are right, it is never again mentioned in scripture, at least to my knowledge... although many mentions are made of lots being cast, and unclean spirits being discerned ...

Timmy
03-02-2012, 01:23 PM
Hmm, I'd say he came across poorly more because this answer seemed to preclude any other answer that might even appeal to common sense. His answer to "What might someone who truly seeks to do God's will here on earth focus on?" was the same, paraphrased "Who could possibly know, since Scripture is not direct from God." It was pretty ridiculous.

I don't expect that this guy is representative of UU, btw, this was like 25 years ago, on tv in Houston. Can't imagine he had a job that evening, actually.

It is not common sense that God gave us the Bible. It is something you have decided to believe, for your own reasons. So this answers my question, thanks: he is an idiot because he disagrees with you! :thumbsup

Timmy
03-02-2012, 01:24 PM
Well, fleece is in Scripture, yes, but invented by Gideon to question what God had already told him? I don't find a treatment of "fleece" in Scripture in the same way that lots or testing of unknown spirits is treated.

Are there scriptures where God tells someone to cast lots?

bbyrd009
03-02-2012, 01:40 PM
It is not common sense that God gave us the Bible. It is something you have decided to believe, for your own reasons. So this answers my question, thanks: he is an idiot because he disagrees with you! :thumbsup

Well, when you dismiss the Bible, you are pretty much finished, imo. I'm trying to recollect anyone I know who has done this showing any fruit later in life, but I can't recollect any save a couple who came back to belief in the Bible first...doesn't mean there aren't any.

I recognize that God gave us divine wisdom, via MSS, and told us it would be corrupted if we let Kenites do our translating, hello. You cannot rightly be given an answer, imo, for the same reason, but no, disagreeing with me does not make him an idiot. He would not give an answer that anyone could disagree with, is what made him seem so useless.

I reiterate that this was just a snapshot of one guy getting asked like the same 2 or 3 stock Qs asked to all three on the panel. The other two were like a Methodist preacher and a Baptist preacher. The UU guy stands out here for his lack of conviction, which seemed to come from his lack of discernment, I would say.

This also might be completely unfair, and maybe just the semantics of the question set him off, maybe? It happens with me, and I certainly wouldn't condemn the guy by name, if I knew it--it was just my first exposure to a "pastor" who had...no mission statement to follow? I just remember getting a vision of the blind leading the blind, and could not for the life of me figure out what this guy did for a paycheck, lol.

Timmy
03-02-2012, 02:10 PM
Well, when you dismiss the Bible, you are pretty much finished, imo. I'm trying to recollect anyone I know who has done this showing any fruit later in life, but I can't recollect any save a couple who came back to belief in the Bible first...doesn't mean there aren't any.
It probably depends on what we call fruit. Someone who dismisses the Bible (as inspired by God) is not likely to have "fruit" of converting people to faith in Jesus. ;) But what about volunteering at food banks, giving to cancer research, sponsoring children in the third world so they can have food and education, loving one's family, raising children to become responsible adults, helping strangers in need, etc.? Good fruit? I doubt you would deny that many unbelievers do such things every day.


I recognize that God gave us divine wisdom, via MSS, and told us it would be corrupted if we let Kenites do our translating, hello. You cannot rightly be given an answer, imo, for the same reason, but no, disagreeing with me does not make him an idiot. He would not give an answer that anyone could disagree with, is what made him seem so useless.
You disagreed with him! :lol

I reiterate that this was just a snapshot of one guy getting asked like the same 2 or 3 stock Qs asked to all three on the panel. The other two were like a Methodist preacher and a Baptist preacher. The UU guy stands out here for his lack of conviction, which seemed to come from his lack of discernment, I would say.

This also might be completely unfair, and maybe just the semantics of the question set him off, maybe? It happens with me, and I certainly wouldn't condemn the guy by name, if I knew it--it was just my first exposure to a "pastor" who had...no mission statement to follow? I just remember getting a vision of the blind leading the blind, and could not for the life of me figure out what this guy did for a paycheck, lol.

From http://www.uua.org/beliefs/principles/index.shtml:

There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:

* The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
* Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
* Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
* A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
* The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
* The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
* Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.


They don't look too bad, do they? Except maybe that first one, which is somewhat at odds with "every person has sinned and deserves punishment of eternal torture" that some folks seem to believe. (Not saying you do. ;))

Amanah
03-02-2012, 03:53 PM
I visited a UUC church to hear my humanities professor speak.
I enjoy studying world religions and that was what they did,
they read and discussed the sacred texts from all different religions.

But if you don't believe in God, that might not be interesting to you.

bbyrd009
03-03-2012, 10:37 AM
It probably depends on what we call fruit. Someone who dismisses the Bible (as inspired by God) is not likely to have "fruit" of converting people to faith in Jesus. ;) But what about volunteering at food banks, giving to cancer research, sponsoring children in the third world so they can have food and education, loving one's family, raising children to become responsible adults, helping strangers in need, etc.? Good fruit? I doubt you would deny that many unbelievers do such things every day.
Well, ok, you know I'm a pod here, so my opinion is more or less irrelevant, but "converting people to faith in Jesus," a la Western Christianity, is also known by its fruit, so I need say nothing else than "imagine the image: you have just told an average Joe that 5 Christians are on the way to his house."

But the rest (ok, sans "cancer research" for me) are exactly what produce good fruit, and a child could compare this fruit to our concept of "witnessing." I would not call them (or anyone) "unbelievers."


You disagreed with him! :lol

If I gave you that impression, it is my fault. I somewhat disagreed with some aspects of the other two's answer, on the panel, as their answers ran to "Get saved, learn some Bible to bash people over the head with, ask strangers if they know the Lord, wait to die and go to Heaven, or get raptured--whatever removes you most effectively from the Kingdom, today," but the UU guy just didn't say anything to disagree with.

So while I may have communicated that I disagree with him, my meaning was more that in attempting to contrast the other two, he managed to be completely disagreeable. If you just imagine a pastor that considers himself a Christian, upon being asked a spiritual question, in his initial reply making it plain that he considered the Bible to be suspect--and that's it, no further explanation, no alternative wisdom from which to draw an answer, just, "well, it sure don't seem like there's an answer in the Bible, and I would doubt any answer I found there, anyway," you might see what I mean.

Weird the he even came up, as I never considered him very Rep of UU--although I never spoke to a UU pastor, he might be completely representative of their majority? Although my experiences at the UU church there in Sharpstown? cause me to doubt this. My point was that there is surely a lot of variance in message there, and I would have my discernment turned up.


From http://www.uua.org/beliefs/principles/index.shtml:

There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:

* The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
* Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
* Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
* A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
* The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
* The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
* Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.


They don't look too bad, do they? Except maybe that first one, which is somewhat at odds with "every person has sinned and deserves punishment of eternal torture" that some folks seem to believe. (Not saying you do. ;))

I would say that this creed feels more indicative of my limited experience with UU; they were great in the Spirit department, which translated as "Grace, in abundance" to me, and maybe a little light (or lighter than I'm used to) on Word, in the sense of "Law."

I mean, the 12 year olds there had a memorable Grace to them--I was like 20, and wandered into a sunday school class for beginning teens with a Mid-eastern friend who had dragged me there, and the subject of sex came up in passing. Where you would expect embarrassment or reluctance to speak, or ignorance, from 12-14 year olds in a room with 2 20 year olds, it was absent, and I remember feeling the less mature.

I see the fruit of the democratic process, and believe it is a phase meant to elevate us from the crushing condemnation heaped upon man by...surprise! the church, and I contrast "Rule by an iron rod," which might sound worse that what we have, but when you consider your complete freedom to opt out becomes more understandable...and I know we are not in that age yet, so democracy for now, fine.

bbyrd009
03-03-2012, 10:43 AM
Are there scriptures where God tells someone to cast lots?

you've surely caught up to them at this point, but
I noticed that when they cast lots to replace an Apostle, they had 2 good choices lined up but could not decide between them, casting lots seemed to be a way to either make the choice easy, or let God choose.

True, but it is still in scripture...

Not that I really advocate this practice though... as you are right, it is never again mentioned in scripture, at least to my knowledge... although many mentions are made of lots being cast, and unclean spirits being discerned ...

Mmm, and "fleece" comes down to us as "fleecing"...

bbyrd009
03-03-2012, 10:50 AM
I visited a UUC church to hear my humanities professor speak.
I enjoy studying world religions and that was what they did,
they read and discussed the sacred texts from all different religions.

But if you don't believe in God, that might not be interesting to you.

My personal feeling is that one would be hard pressed to absent God from many or most of the tenets of any theology that declared "One God." I have been looking for years, and my search has mostly led me to "anything in your religion that doesn't agree with any other monotheistic religion you can prolly toss," which is surely heresy to many, but has done the most to bring Christ to life for me, and makes God "Abba."

Timmy
03-03-2012, 11:11 AM
you've surely caught up to them at this point, but
Well, yes, I found this:

Leviticus 16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.

Doesn't say it's to find God's will, but one might suppose that the Lord would make the lot fall the way He prefers. For whatever reason. (The Lord's goat being sacrificed to Him, and the other goat being the scapegoat to be released alive to the wilderness. Not sure this is an especially crucial matter, as far as God's will goes! Seem more like, "I don't care which one I get, so just cast a lot.")

All other cases are just people casting lots, but not under God's command to do so. That includes Acts 1. It just says they did it.

[/QUOTE]
Mmm, and "fleece" comes down to us as "fleecing"...[/QUOTE]
That's interesting! ;)

Timmy
03-03-2012, 11:22 AM
Well, ok, you know I'm a pod here, so my opinion is more or less irrelevant, but "converting people to faith in Jesus," a la Western Christianity, is also known by its fruit, so I need say nothing else than "imagine the image: you have just told an average Joe that 5 Christians are on the way to his house."
:bolt


But the rest (ok, sans "cancer research" for me) are exactly what produce good fruit, and a child could compare this fruit to our concept of "witnessing." I would not call them (or anyone) "unbelievers."
Mmmkay, so you have never seen anyone dismiss the Bible and do those things?

Now you have.

(What's wrong with cancer research, may I ask?)

If I gave you that impression, it is my fault.
You don't disagree with "Scripture cannot be counted on as being received from God"? :blink

bbyrd009
03-03-2012, 01:08 PM
:boltexactly


Mmmkay, so you have never seen anyone dismiss the Bible and do those things?

Now you have.
But this is a literal dismissal, and not a spiritual dismissal of the main tenets of Scripture. Imo, if you literally dismiss the Bible, and then go practice "love your neighbor," what have you really dismissed?

But I am aware of other dismissals that were essentially turning from "love your neighbor," and also evidenced by their fruit, which in the end is all we have, and recognized by God as what is to be examined.

(What's wrong with cancer research, may I ask?)

Strictly a personal thing for me: cancer research, imo, is seeking a treatment for a symptom, and leads to chemotherapy, et al, rather than a cure, which is readily available--don't do the things that cause cancer--and are well documented.

For example, we've invested a lot of time and effort, in "cancer research" in the area of women's mammaries--frequent Dr visits, mammograms, ad nauseum, and it has just been confirmed in the last year that serum vitamin D deficiency is a better marker for breat cancer than any of that...any women out there getting counseled to increase their vitamin D intake 5 years ago?

You don't disagree with "Scripture cannot be counted on as being received from God"? :blink

We've been over this, and I just find it impossible to disagree with a Spirit that informs me in the same Word that God cannot stop the exercise of free will, even in translations of the Bible, especially if you are going to hire Kenites to do your translating, lol.

I have argued that the multiplicity of translations is pretty effective at outing poor translations, but can't help but believe that even a perfect translation would be endlessly debated in its particulars by humans, and I really feel that if a seeker is listening, God will be heard, in whatever venue one cares to hear in, and that the same message will only confound someone with a diff agenda, and their fruit will be apparent, cannot be hidden.

While I am naturally indoctrinated into the Holiness of the Bible, I am aware that this feeling is universal, and shared by those of what many would call a "different faith," and try as I might, can find no reason to suppose that my position is superior to theirs. I also notice that we seem to disagree on nothing essential, when agreement is sought? That their literal position on Christ may not reflect my literal belief, of this Guiding Spirit that I find Ghandi with a superior spiritual grasp of, strikes me as pointless divisioning.

"Seek and you will find," "Knock, and the door will be opened," et al never seem to indicate that the Bible is what is to be sought here, but God. I find the Bible that we currently have to be just what It says It is--the Word of God effectively whispered from human ear to human ear, and corrupted in this process; but with a bunch of copies of the first whisper.

My feeling is that you could study the MSS your whole life, and have a perfect grasp of Scripture, but if you don't have Spirit you are lost anyway, and you can't fake real fruit for long. Discernment tells me that I don't need to agree in every aspect of another's walk, there is more than one kind of fruit--as long as it truly is fruit, which cannot long be faked.

Spirit is still evident in the Bible, and available to anyone who accepts that what men may tell you about Scripture is not Scripture, and as the Bible says, suspect anyone who claims a better idea, interpretation, but has no fruit to show.

bbyrd009
03-03-2012, 01:24 PM
Well, yes, I found this:

Leviticus 16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat...Not sure this is an especially crucial matter, as far as God's will goes! Seem more like, "I don't care which one I get, so just cast a lot.")

All other cases are just people casting lots, but not under God's command to do so. That includes Acts 1. It just says they did it.



Ah; it could be supposed that Leviticus is the command, but I've seen a better treatment of lots in Scripture, I'll look around. It can be argued that it was of vital importance to the goat, who after all reps a person, practically speaking here.

Timmy
03-03-2012, 01:33 PM
Ah; it could be supposed that Leviticus is the command, but I've seen a better treatment of lots in Scripture, I'll look around. It can be argued that it was of vital importance to the goat, who after all reps a person, practically speaking here.

Thanks. I should have said "All other cases that I know of are just people casting lots, but not under God's command to do so."

Arphaxad
03-05-2012, 08:56 PM
So, which works better for you? :)

casting lots while wearing a fleece?

:doggyrun

Timmy
03-05-2012, 09:03 PM
casting lots while wearing a fleece?

:doggyrun

:spit

Dalton
03-23-2012, 01:30 PM
Great idea!

First, since it's easiest, I'll cast a lot. The question will be "Should I go to church?" To be sure it's really God's answer for me, and not random chance, I'll roll a die 10 times. An even number means "yes" and an odd number means "no". God will give me a Yes or No every time. (Random chance might not.)

OK, here we go.

Roll 1: 5.
2: 5. (Again!)
3: 3. (So far, so good.)
4: 2. (Doh!)
5: 2.
6: 6.
7: 2.
8: 1.
9: 2.
10: 3.

It's a tie. 5 odd, 5 even. Now, where am I going to find a fleece?

Maybe thats a sign that the choice of following god is up to you and not god?

Also I believe he's already answered it when he said in the book of..... TIMOTHY hahahaha

1 Timothy 2:3
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Asking that is just mockery and he knows it.

Timmy
03-23-2012, 01:32 PM
Maybe thats a sign that the choice of following god is up to you and not god?

Maybe. Or a sign that random processes are just random. :thumbsup

Dalton
03-23-2012, 01:37 PM
C'mon now even JFK said "Everything that happens is conspired to happen"

And random process is random process. Except when you involve another determining variable, in that case God.

Timmy
03-23-2012, 01:40 PM
C'mon now even JFK said "Everything that happens is conspired to happen"

And random process is random process. Except when you involve another determining variable, in that case God.

So, you actually do think God made those dice rolls look like they were random? :blink

Dalton
03-23-2012, 01:52 PM
Nah, I think it is what it is. I don't think it was some dubious deception plan rather that you asked the question that required your own answer, so it wouldn't lean either way because it's your choice.

He didn't make it look like anything other than the answer you were looking for.

Cast another and say this out loud "Jesus if you truly are lord and god and you will not fail to provide an answer to those who ask as your word and Dalton say, then as I cast these, let those that fall be even."

Timmy
03-23-2012, 02:04 PM
Nah, I think it is what it is. I don't think it was some dubious deception plan rather that you asked the question that required your own answer, so it wouldn't lean either way because it's your choice.

He didn't make it look like anything other than the answer you were looking for.

Cast another and say this out loud "Jesus if you truly are lord and god and you will not fail to provide an answer to those who ask as your word and Dalton say, then as I cast these, let those that fall be even."

Seriously?

Dalton
03-23-2012, 02:08 PM
If you want to. I mean you dont have to :P but I'll stand by it if you want to.

Man I think your the most active poster on here... (has nothing to do with this conversation but I just noticed that)

Dalton
03-23-2012, 02:22 PM
I won't be able to reply to this until monday, I do not have the internet at my home and I'm at work :P

So hopefully I can get back on saturday or something, go somewhere and try to. If not, I'll be back on monday God willing.

Timmy
03-23-2012, 02:25 PM
If you want to. I mean you dont have to :P but I'll stand by it if you want to.
In what way you will "stand by it"?


Man I think your the most active poster on here... (has nothing to do with this conversation but I just noticed that)

It's no big deal. Most of my posts are just a smilie, or a one-word comment. "Seriously?" for example. ;)

Timmy
03-23-2012, 02:26 PM
I won't be able to reply to this until monday, I do not have the internet at my home and I'm at work :P

So hopefully I can get back on saturday or something, go somewhere and try to. If not, I'll be back on monday God willing.

No problem.

bbyrd009
03-25-2012, 12:40 PM
Seriously?

That should work about as well as your multiple castings, looking for...what? An average? Dalton is suggesting you divine with dice, and this is not their purpose. You will not reach discernment this way, nor with multiple casting of a die. See that this would just turn dice into fleece, and understand why fleece is discouraged.

Any way you slice it, you are now looking for proof, rather than instruction or guidance.

Arphaxad
03-25-2012, 04:31 PM
Hey Timmy, you should have rolled 11 times instead of 10, no chance of a tie there, duh!

:doggyrun

Timmy
03-25-2012, 04:44 PM
That should work about as well as your multiple castings, looking for...what? An average? Dalton is suggesting you divine with dice, and this is not their purpose. You will not reach discernment this way, nor with multiple casting of a die. See that this would just turn dice into fleece, and understand why fleece is discouraged.

Any way you slice it, you are now looking for proof, rather than instruction or guidance.

I'm conversing with Dalton, if you don't mind. Does it surprise you that another believer has different opinions from yours?

Timmy
03-25-2012, 04:45 PM
Hey Timmy, you should have rolled 11 times instead of 10, no chance of a tie there, duh!

:doggyrun

Doh! :lol

Timmy
03-27-2012, 10:55 AM
I won't be able to reply to this until monday, I do not have the internet at my home and I'm at work :P

So hopefully I can get back on saturday or something, go somewhere and try to. If not, I'll be back on monday God willing.

Hi! :)

bbyrd009
03-27-2012, 11:25 AM
I'm conversing with Dalton, if you don't mind. Does it surprise you that another believer has different opinions from yours?

Lol; sorry. When I hear from another believer here, I'll be sure and let you know.

Timmy
03-27-2012, 12:03 PM
Lol; sorry. When I hear from another believer here, I'll be sure and let you know.

Uh. What? We are surrounded by believers here! Oh. You mean someone who believers the same as you. OK. :thumbsup

bbyrd009
03-27-2012, 04:45 PM
Uh. What? We are surrounded by believers here! Oh. You mean someone who believers the same as you. OK. :thumbsup

You don't see it, but you would endorse heresy with that. These gifts aren't to be taken lightly, or ignorantly 10 times in a row, and while some of Scripture might be obscure to anyone it manages to be plain enough where it needs to, and yes, in this case someone who believes as I do.

You are much better off leaving this alone if it does not appeal to you right now.

Timmy
03-28-2012, 11:41 AM
You don't see it, but you would endorse heresy with that. These gifts aren't to be taken lightly, or ignorantly 10 times in a row, and while some of Scripture might be obscure to anyone it manages to be plain enough where it needs to, and yes, in this case someone who believes as I do.

You are much better off leaving this alone if it does not appeal to you right now.

Look. Either God can and does influence things to give people messages or he doesn't. You have already said or implied strongly that you do believe this. I do not. But I am willing to put it to the test, as suggest by Dalton. You don't have to participate, and you don't have to accept the results. I am waiting for Dalton to explain to me in what way he will (as he said) stand by the results, and we will first get a precise understanding of the procedure that will be followed. Do you still think we are taking it lightly?

It continues to amaze me that you (and many others) think you have this figured out, and everyone else is wrong. Your opinion is supposed to hold more weight that anyone else's. That's just weird.

bbyrd009
03-28-2012, 12:51 PM
...It continues to amaze me that you (and many others) think you have this figured out, and everyone else is wrong. Your opinion is supposed to hold more weight that anyone else's. That's just weird.

That lots are to be done one time is not just my opinion, and while I agree that everyone should form their own opinion, I would urge that you at least read the relevant Scripture first, that's all.

Timmy
03-28-2012, 01:03 PM
That lots are to be done one time is not just my opinion, and while I agree that everyone should form their own opinion, I would urge that you at least read the relevant Scripture first, that's all.

OK, please show us the scripture that says lots should only be done once.

Dalton
03-28-2012, 02:20 PM
Well, here goes. After much discussion and thought I must revoke my idea and the statement that I would stand by it (at the time meaning the outcome.) The more I mulled it over and had time to think I realized (and was shown) that what you seek has already been answered. I had gotten caught up into debate and things that were unnecessary to salvation.

2 Peter 2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
As well as this;
14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Now, I am not saying that I do not think that it is possible. Because some would take this opportunity to say “Oh well your calling it quits, you must not believe it will work.” or something to that effect. That is not my intention I believe whole heartedly that he can, however it is wrong of me to take the natural process of god dealing with you and delving into things such as lots or fleece and trying to force gods hand when that has nothing to do with salvation.

I can attest though how much this will let you down and for that I am sorry. I for one was the biggest antichristian in my school. I literally hated Christianity and anything to do with it. I was born into a Southern Baptist family and was force fed hypocrisy and even still. However I was unaware of the things of the word and I strictly listened to what everyone around me was saying and never really checked it out.

I said that I did but I really didn't. More or less I was reading the bible to find things to suit me and/or I was just reading it as if I would any other book and wasn't looking for knowledge.

I was a heavy practitioner of Asatru. If you do not know what Asatru is, it is basically Scandinavian Paganism, just the true religion, not the new age wicca/pagan conversion thing going on. This was old school attending blots sacrifices to odin and all. I experienced results during said activity so it further enhanced my hatred for Christians and the like.

This was until I met this man that I worked with. When I met this guy I would criticize him and do as many things as I possibly could to intimidate, disprove, and tear down his “doctrine of lies.” As I called it. It was unsettling to me that nothing roused him to anger and everything I said he brought forth a bible verse to either contradict what I was saying or he would just sit there and take it and do nothing but smile. So I picked up the bible to search and disprove him… and here I am.

I said all of that to say, I was really wanting to disprove god… not know if he was real. That way if I disproved him, I would have nothing to worry about and Valhalla would await (now at the time I was arguing I didn’t realize this. I honestly thought I was defending my truth and heritage and honor and that disproving god was nothing more than proving I was right, which I knew.)
There are things in this bible that no man can and/or should tell you. Those things are to come straight from god. As the word states 1 Corinth 3:7
“So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase”
.
So all I have to say to ya Tim-bo (I hope its alright to call you that) is get in there for yourself, and with a full heart and want to know who god is and what god is rather than disprove him and give him a chance. Because I WILL stand by this statement no matter what, God finishes what he starts and God IS real and he wants us all to know him.

James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

So if I can leave you with anything from all of this that I am saying, I want it to be this;
Do not believe me. Do not believe your wife or her pastor. Do not believe anyone on this forum. Until you get in the bible, truthfully seeking knowledge and truthfully wanting to know our purpose, and read it for yourself, then believe. And if not then, there is nothing I can say nor anyone here that will change your mind and continuing to hold “discussion” over it is frivolous wasted time, for me and for you.

Romans 3:4
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Dalton
03-28-2012, 02:27 PM
Lol; sorry. When I hear from another believer here, I'll be sure and let you know.

Man, it's one thing to judge someone and say if they are not christian... you can tell that by their actions. But to say someone doesn't believe is an assumption that you really have no foundation for. My grandmother believes in god. Would say yes if you held a gun to her head and asked her. Does that mean she is christian? No. She has some wrong ideologies, but I would never say she didn't believe... she is misguided.

Even still... Neil Diamond was a believer also...
Once he saw her face.

bbyrd009
03-28-2012, 02:54 PM
Man, it's one thing to judge someone and say if they are not christian... you can tell that by their actions. But to say someone doesn't believe is an assumption that you really have no foundation for. My grandmother believes in god. Would say yes if you held a gun to her head and asked her. Does that mean she is christian? No. She has some wrong ideologies, but I would never say she didn't believe... she is misguided.

Even still... Neil Diamond was a believer also...
Once he saw her face.

I meant strictly that when someone posted something agreeing with Scripture here, which had not happened.

Timmy
03-28-2012, 03:07 PM
I meant strictly that when someone posted something agreeing with Scripture here, which had not happened.

Speaking of which, I'd like to see that scripture about using lots once only.

Timmy
03-28-2012, 03:13 PM
Speaking of which, I'd like to see that scripture about using lots once only.

Hey, if I can only roll a die once, how about if I use a Zocchihedron? 100 sides. I was hoping for odds more like 2 to the 10th (10 rolls of 6 sides, looking for all even) possibilities, or one in 2048 odds, but we could start with 1:100. We should start small, though. How about if it rolls a 42 (nice number!), it will prove that Romans 13 means what it says. (That all powers are established by God, such as the Obama presidency and Hitler's reign.) You up for it? :D

RandyWayne
03-28-2012, 03:14 PM
Speaking of which, I'd like to see that scripture about using lots once only.

It's in the Book of Paul.

Timmy
03-28-2012, 03:15 PM
Well, here goes. After much discussion and thought I must revoke my idea and the statement that I would stand by it (at the time meaning the outcome.) The more I mulled it over and had time to think I realized (and was shown) that what you seek has already been answered. I had gotten caught up into debate and things that were unnecessary to salvation.

2 Peter 2That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
As well as this;
14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Now, I am not saying that I do not think that it is possible. Because some would take this opportunity to say “Oh well your calling it quits, you must not believe it will work.” or something to that effect. That is not my intention I believe whole heartedly that he can, however it is wrong of me to take the natural process of god dealing with you and delving into things such as lots or fleece and trying to force gods hand when that has nothing to do with salvation.

I can attest though how much this will let you down and for that I am sorry. I for one was the biggest antichristian in my school. I literally hated Christianity and anything to do with it. I was born into a Southern Baptist family and was force fed hypocrisy and even still. However I was unaware of the things of the word and I strictly listened to what everyone around me was saying and never really checked it out.

I said that I did but I really didn't. More or less I was reading the bible to find things to suit me and/or I was just reading it as if I would any other book and wasn't looking for knowledge.

I was a heavy practitioner of Asatru. If you do not know what Asatru is, it is basically Scandinavian Paganism, just the true religion, not the new age wicca/pagan conversion thing going on. This was old school attending blots sacrifices to odin and all. I experienced results during said activity so it further enhanced my hatred for Christians and the like.

This was until I met this man that I worked with. When I met this guy I would criticize him and do as many things as I possibly could to intimidate, disprove, and tear down his “doctrine of lies.” As I called it. It was unsettling to me that nothing roused him to anger and everything I said he brought forth a bible verse to either contradict what I was saying or he would just sit there and take it and do nothing but smile. So I picked up the bible to search and disprove him… and here I am.

I said all of that to say, I was really wanting to disprove god… not know if he was real. That way if I disproved him, I would have nothing to worry about and Valhalla would await (now at the time I was arguing I didn’t realize this. I honestly thought I was defending my truth and heritage and honor and that disproving god was nothing more than proving I was right, which I knew.)
There are things in this bible that no man can and/or should tell you. Those things are to come straight from god. As the word states 1 Corinth 3:7
“So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase”
.
So all I have to say to ya Tim-bo (I hope its alright to call you that) is get in there for yourself, and with a full heart and want to know who god is and what god is rather than disprove him and give him a chance. Because I WILL stand by this statement no matter what, God finishes what he starts and God IS real and he wants us all to know him.

James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

So if I can leave you with anything from all of this that I am saying, I want it to be this;
Do not believe me. Do not believe your wife or her pastor. Do not believe anyone on this forum. Until you get in the bible, truthfully seeking knowledge and truthfully wanting to know our purpose, and read it for yourself, then believe. And if not then, there is nothing I can say nor anyone here that will change your mind and continuing to hold “discussion” over it is frivolous wasted time, for me and for you.

Romans 3:4
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

:sad

Timmy
03-28-2012, 03:15 PM
It's in the Book of Paul.

I Paul or II Paul?

RandyWayne
03-28-2012, 03:23 PM
I Paul or II Paul?

Well, that is still up in the air. How many individual 'books' does the Book of Paul need to be split into in order to make the total book count some sort of meaningful number?

Timmy
03-28-2012, 03:27 PM
Well, that is still up in the air. How many individual 'books' does the Book of Paul need to be split into in order to make the total book count some sort of meaningful number?

Whatever would add up to 42. Duh.

Timmy
03-28-2012, 04:36 PM
...

Romans 3:4
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

I'm not trying to disprove God. Did you think I was?

I spent my first 50+ years pursuing God, believing, trusting, obeying, studying the Bible. Not long enough?

AreYouReady?
03-28-2012, 11:31 PM
Hmmmm ... lots or fleece? I used to pride myself on being able to discern the spirit of people. That's where I made my mistake...my pride. It took me a while to recognize that it was my pride that caused my problem...instead of looking to God and giving God glory in all circumstances. I relied on my stinking pride.

A while back, I needed a lawyer. So I prayed and looked through the phone book, researched his website and "discerned" that a particular lawyer was God sent after I went for my consultation with him.

He turned out to be the lawyer from H***! He milked what I considered to be an enormous amount of money from us, then turned on us and "settled" with my opponent, who promised me, without telling you all what their exact words were, that they would win "at all cost".
They had the money to do it too, and I expect that my lawyer got a little bit of that money. No proof, just a reasonable hunch considering the events that took place afterwards. ;) The settlement was a bum's rush.

But that is where my "discernment" got me. I think that casting lots might have pretty much the same results.

I noticed that Gideon fleeced God twice and he was very humble about it, begging God not to be angry with him for the second fleece.

So...if I ever find myself in a place where I need something done that is very important and I had to chose between the two, I would use Gideon's example.

Dalton
03-29-2012, 06:10 AM
I'm not trying to disprove God. Did you think I was?

I spent my first 50+ years pursuing God, believing, trusting, obeying, studying the Bible. Not long enough?

Wowza!

So what happened there?

Dalton
03-29-2012, 06:12 AM
Whatever would add up to 42. Duh.

Is this a hitchikers guide reference?

Timmy
03-29-2012, 08:51 AM
Is this a hitchikers guide reference?

:highfive

Timmy
03-29-2012, 08:53 AM
Wowza!

So what happened there?

I put it to the test.

Dalton
03-29-2012, 09:15 AM
I put it to the test.

How so? If that's alright to ask...

Timmy
03-29-2012, 09:35 AM
How so? If that's alright to ask...

Healing? Didn't work.

Peace? Didn't get it. Not always, and less and less as time went on.

Sound mind? Ditto.

Family torn apart, for Jesus' sake? Now that promise came close to being fulfilled.

I could go on.

bbyrd009
03-29-2012, 09:40 AM
I'm not trying to disprove God. Did you think I was?

I spent my first 50+ years pursuing God, believing, trusting, obeying, studying the Bible. Not long enough?

Wadr, it is more than obvious that you "believed, trusted, and obeyed" what men said about Scripture, and "studying the Bible" is, I note, still last.

You worshipped a phantom, a religion, and a real study of Scripture lights you up like a sign, ok? And me, don't feel singled out. you have thrown the baby out, and now have no place to argue from.

I could provide enough relevant Scripture to embarrass you--to other readers here, as you would not connect the verses with your actions.
Really, T, if you reject the Bible as Scripture, sad, but ok, then at least see that God hates all that stuff you abhor about religion, too, and go find God some other way.

Illuminating lies is a poor way to illuminate truth, and the premise will turn you into a curmudgeon if you let it. You're most of the way there already.

Timmy
03-29-2012, 09:42 AM
Wadr, it is more than obvious that you "believed, trusted, and obeyed" what men said about Scripture, and "studying the Bible" is, I note, still last.

You worshipped a phantom, a religion, and a real study of Scripture lights you up like a sign, ok? And me, don't feel singled out. you have thrown the baby out, and now have no place to argue from.

I could provide enough relevant Scripture to embarrass you--to other readers here, as you would not connect the verses with your actions.
Really, T, if you reject the Bible as Scripture, sad, but ok, then at least see that God hates all that stuff you abhor about religion, too, and go find God some other way.

Illuminating lies is a poor way to illuminate truth, and the premise will turn you into a curmudgeon if you let it. You're most of the way there already.

That's a lot to conclude about me from a simple difference of opinion.

Dalton
03-29-2012, 10:07 AM
Healing? Didn't work.

Peace? Didn't get it. Not always, and less and less as time went on.

Sound mind? Ditto.

Family torn apart, for Jesus' sake? Now that promise came close to being fulfilled.

I could go on.

Did you pray for the healing/peace with any doubt?

The peace would've left you the more you began to question. So I could see how it would dwindle away. (Sound Mind and Peace would go hand in hand I think. You can't control what will happen to you, but the peace and sound mind would be what was given during the trials... look at Job.)

As for healing... were you praying for healing so that those who saw or were involved could have their faith strengthened or was it legitimately just to be healed... was it a believer or non believer? (the reason I ask that is, its funny how we as christians spend an awful lot of time praying to keep those in the church with us out of heaven rather than those in sin out of hell.)

I've prayed for healing a few times and didn't recieve it, but I have found that every time I did not... There was a verrrryyyy good reason or verrrry complicated circumstance that would hinder it.

As for the family being torn apart... We already talked about that... Jesus coming to make war in the family. I struggle with my wife with this alot.

However, thats just the beauty of the design of marriage, how it parallels gods plan. Husband = God, Wife = Church. Learning to obey/lead fairly. Like one of my problems is that I will have a plan that is for the betterment of my family, my wife will fight it up and down because it requires a small amount of sacrifice on both of our parts, not just hers, but the way she sees it is she is being treated unjustly. Whereas if she would let it play out, she would see that it would be much better for us....

Kind of gives me insight to how we deal with God and how he feels towards us... its wierd really, how alike our emotions are yet so different.

Timmy
03-29-2012, 11:51 AM
Did you pray for the healing/peace with any doubt?

The peace would've left you the more you began to question. So I could see how it would dwindle away. (Sound Mind and Peace would go hand in hand I think. You can't control what will happen to you, but the peace and sound mind would be what was given during the trials... look at Job.)

As for healing... were you praying for healing so that those who saw or were involved could have their faith strengthened or was it legitimately just to be healed... was it a believer or non believer? (the reason I ask that is, its funny how we as christians spend an awful lot of time praying to keep those in the church with us out of heaven rather than those in sin out of hell.)

I've prayed for healing a few times and didn't recieve it, but I have found that every time I did not... There was a verrrryyyy good reason or verrrry complicated circumstance that would hinder it.

As for the family being torn apart... We already talked about that... Jesus coming to make war in the family. I struggle with my wife with this alot.

However, thats just the beauty of the design of marriage, how it parallels gods plan. Husband = God, Wife = Church. Learning to obey/lead fairly. Like one of my problems is that I will have a plan that is for the betterment of my family, my wife will fight it up and down because it requires a small amount of sacrifice on both of our parts, not just hers, but the way she sees it is she is being treated unjustly. Whereas if she would let it play out, she would see that it would be much better for us....

Kind of gives me insight to how we deal with God and how he feels towards us... its wierd really, how alike our emotions are yet so different.

Well, sure, I fully admit that I may have done it wrong. I'm a mere human, after all, with my frailties, puny brain (compared with God's), evil desires, etc. How anyone could actually do it "right" is beyond me, but hey, if it works for some, it works. :thumbsup

AreYouReady?
03-29-2012, 12:03 PM
Sometimes acceptance of whatever happens to us is what we need to learn in order to obtain peace. I fight acceptance of things I cannot change to be my worse enemy.

Timmy
03-29-2012, 12:09 PM
Sometimes acceptance of whatever happens to us is what we need to learn in order to obtain peace. I fight acceptance of things I cannot change to be my worse enemy.

Yep. I still have to work on that, now and then. :thumbsup

bbyrd009
03-29-2012, 04:55 PM
Sometimes acceptance of whatever happens to us is what we need to learn in order to obtain peace. I fight acceptance of things I cannot change to be my worse enemy.

As you pointed out before, Lots will not tell you what decision to make to get what you want, but rather to get what God wants, and you are in for quite the lesson if you approach this selfishly.

And I make no assumptions due to a single post, T, although that would be as easy.
Your premise announces itself.

bbyrd009
03-31-2012, 11:29 PM
Too narrow a reading of Scripture and you will miss the lessons hidden in Apostles "gleaning," etc, imo.

Timmy
04-01-2012, 02:13 PM
That lots are to be done one time is not just my opinion, and while I agree that everyone should form their own opinion, I would urge that you at least read the relevant Scripture first, that's all.

OK, please show us the scripture that says lots should only be done once.

:bumpsign

bbyrd009
04-01-2012, 02:33 PM
OK, please show us the scripture that says lots should only be done once.

Well, you might have a problem there, because that must be inferred from the whole concept of Lots; or, go ahead and do it multiple times, then, but you see that that can queer the results, which imo reinforces the error--so do it 11 times, then, ya.

bbyrd009
04-01-2012, 02:38 PM
I would like to restate that these (Lots and Testing spirits) end up being exercises to help one recognize the spirit of Discernment, at least that's how it worked for me.

I started out literally asking and rolling a die, and one day went to ask, and the spirit agreed before I could frame the Q; and I went to roll, and the answer became clear
as I reached for the dice? Which might sound funny, but it just became obvious that
the choices were a selfish v a selfless one.

Timmy
04-02-2012, 07:53 AM
Well, you might have a problem there, because that must be inferred from the whole concept of Lots; or, go ahead and do it multiple times, then, but you see that that can queer the results, which imo reinforces the error--so do it 11 times, then, ya.

:blink

Timmy
04-02-2012, 07:54 AM
I would like to restate that these (Lots and Testing spirits) end up being exercises to help one recognize the spirit of Discernment, at least that's how it worked for me.

I started out literally asking and rolling a die, and one day went to ask, and the spirit agreed before I could frame the Q; and I went to roll, and the answer became clear
as I reached for the dice? Which might sound funny, but it just became obvious that
the choices were a selfish v a selfless one.

:blink

AreYouReady?
04-02-2012, 01:15 PM
:blink

:heeheehee

luv ya Timmy!

Timmy
04-02-2012, 01:21 PM
:blink

:heeheehee

luv ya Timmy!

'Course ya do. Who doesn't? :heeheehee

AreYouReady?
04-02-2012, 01:44 PM
:lol

bbyrd009
04-03-2012, 09:43 AM
I reply to a post, not a person; so maybe those replies just weren't for you.
If something there is unclear? your gratuitous smiley thing won't help to clarify it.

bbyrd009
04-03-2012, 09:45 AM
Well, you might have a problem there, because that must be inferred from the whole concept of Lots; or, go ahead and do it multiple times, then, but you see that that can queer the results, which imo reinforces the error--so do it 11 times, then, ya.

Ya, it suddenly sounds stupid, even to you? 11 = 1 in that sense. Hey, roll with it.

Timmy
04-03-2012, 10:52 AM
Ya, it suddenly sounds stupid, even to you? 11 = 1 in that sense. Hey, roll with it.

So, are you changing your mind?

bbyrd009
04-03-2012, 12:50 PM
So, are you changing your mind?

Sure; for the sake of argument, you have convinced me that 11 times will suffice.
And I predict (I never predict unless the outcome is irrelevant) that the first 10 will always be a tie.

Dalton
04-03-2012, 12:56 PM
there something fishy with this convo......

Seems to be flip flopping........

http://radiopatriot.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/flip-flop-fish.jpg

I just wanted an excuse to use this picture XD

Timmy
04-03-2012, 01:13 PM
Sure; for the sake of argument, you have convinced me that 11 times will suffice.
And I predict (I never predict unless the outcome is irrelevant) that the first 10 will always be a tie.

Cool.

OK, so if I tried it, and the first 10 were not a tie, and if the outcome was relevant (I'll need your help on that part), will you again change your mind? If you don't trust me to conduct the experiment fairly, or to report honestly, you can do it yourself. I'll trust you. ;)

bbyrd009
04-03-2012, 01:22 PM
Cool.

OK, so if I tried it, and the first 10 were not a tie, and if the outcome was relevant (I'll need your help on that part), will you again change your mind? If you don't trust me to conduct the experiment fairly, or to report honestly, you can do it yourself. I'll trust you. ;)

Well, really, I'm just trying to make the point that you are not really casting lots in the proper spirit; with the proper premises. Sure, in that case I'll change my mind again; as you point out, my mind is irrelevant to you. Or, it should be. Relevance to (you) here is what matters.

There is no experiment to conduct, except to you. This Scripture is thousands of years old, and was not written down on a whim? You should either accept it or disregard it for now, imo--why re-invent a wheel?

Timmy
04-03-2012, 01:59 PM
Well, really, I'm just trying to make the point that you are not really casting lots in the proper spirit; with the proper premises. Sure, in that case I'll change my mind again; as you point out, my mind is irrelevant to you. Or, it should be. Relevance to (you) here is what matters.

There is no experiment to conduct, except to you. This Scripture is thousands of years old, and was not written down on a whim? You should either accept it or disregard it for now, imo--why re-invent a wheel?

The only case I can recall where lots were used to find God's will was in choosing Judas's replacement. Lots were used in the other cases (far as I remember) simply to divvy up garments or land or whatever, with no mention of God's will or guidance.

Anyway, dice are just random. They won't always be tied, with 10 or an even number of rolls. Try it yourself, and use the right attitude or whatever it takes to get God involved. He won't be. I guarantee it. (If you report that it is usually a tie, that doesn't prove you're right. I hope you know that.)

Dalton
04-05-2012, 08:06 AM
Anyway, dice are just random. They won't always be tied, with 10 or an even number of rolls. Try it yourself, and use the right attitude or whatever it takes to get God involved. He won't be. I guarantee it. (If you report that it is usually a tie, that doesn't prove you're right. I hope you know that.)

I did and got a 7 or an 11 every time......

but I was using these..

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xjmz6QdFtTA/TnXnbyQkGhI/AAAAAAAAAcA/DeeR9iQnN_g/s640/Loaded+Dice-thumb-autox379-47192.jpg

Timmy
04-05-2012, 08:09 AM
I did and got a 7 or an 11 every time......

but I was using these..

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xjmz6QdFtTA/TnXnbyQkGhI/AAAAAAAAAcA/DeeR9iQnN_g/s640/Loaded+Dice-thumb-autox379-47192.jpg

:highfive