View Full Version : left upci yr ago and still messed up
Not sure where to post this and what to say! Can anyone help me thru this, I tried to search other threads of people going thru this, please leave links if I missed some. Was in UPCI 10 yrs and always felt funny about the "holiness stds" and how strict somethings were. and felt I became so judgemental of others. I felt my other non UPCI friends were more christian like than we were. Alot of things bothered me but yet in UPCI the worship and presence of God and the life changing experiences at the altar are hard to find in other churches. My husband and I haven't been to church for over a yr. I just don't know how to explain how I feel. I am so turned off by church itself now. I have so many mixed feelings inside. I am trying to heal and not have a wall up with God either. and He seems so quiet thru all of this I know He doesn't leave us but I wish He would give my husband and I more guidance and answers... and healing... any advice? does it just take time? can you share what you have been thru if you have gone thru something like this? thank you....
seekerman
03-03-2012, 05:40 PM
Yes, my wife and I went through it several years ago. Most of my family are oneness Pentecostal and we lost many friends and some family when we left the sect so it was quite a stressful and trying time in our lives.
We still fellowship but it's mainly in home meetings, which I realize isn't for everyone, especially those with children. Home meetings are far more intimate than any church service we attended and thank God that we are part of that segment of the body of Christ. We would never go back to the religious system we were in, but love those people and count them as brothers and sisters in Christ even though many don't return the feeling.
You're on a journey and it's going to be both disappointing and exciting. Just keep focus on God, keep praying, know that He loves you and hasn't abandoned you one bit. He's the one leading you, follow Him and everything will turn out ok.
thank you for your reply! there is another couple that hasn't been going to our church because of somethings and we thought about just getting together amonsgt ourselves, i really miss prayer meetings too, I just told my husband it would be hard in my own home, so distracting!... I hope that doesn't sound terrible. but maybe something will work out that route?...
It is really sad and painful, how I'm not one of them now, and when we pass in a store it is awkward, That part makes it feel cult like! They think because you aren't going there you are lost... and some seem like they act the part but don't deep down care... and I have given myself bangs since then so its always weird to face them knowing they think its a terrible thing to cut hair... I just found the www.studyholiness.com link and totally agree with their presentation of the issues...
I needed the reassurance in your last paragraph... thank you seekerman :o)
Cindy
03-03-2012, 06:38 PM
I will be praying for you.
faithit166
03-03-2012, 07:06 PM
Not sure where to post this and what to say! Can anyone help me thru this, I tried to search other threads of people going thru this, please leave links if I missed some. Was in UPCI 10 yrs and always felt funny about the "holiness stds" and how strict somethings were. and felt I became so judgemental of others. I felt my other non UPCI friends were more christian like than we were. Alot of things bothered me but yet in UPCI the worship and presence of God and the life changing experiences at the altar are hard to find in other churches. My husband and I haven't been to church for over a yr. I just don't know how to explain how I feel. I am so turned off by church itself now. I have so many mixed feelings inside. I am trying to heal and not have a wall up with God either. and He seems so quiet thru all of this I know He doesn't leave us but I wish He would give my husband and I more guidance and answers... and healing... any advice? does it just take time? can you share what you have been thru if you have gone thru something like this? thank you....
so why havent you been to church in over a year is it because of the way you felt about the holiness standards and the strictness is this something you struggled with wasnt real sure about and it caused you to leave i guess i just dont understand why you havent been to church surely more has happened besides this i mean no disrespect but what has kept you away
Hoovie
03-03-2012, 08:03 PM
Not sure where to post this and what to say! Can anyone help me thru this, I tried to search other threads of people going thru this, please leave links if I missed some. Was in UPCI 10 yrs and always felt funny about the "holiness stds" and how strict somethings were. and felt I became so judgemental of others. I felt my other non UPCI friends were more christian like than we were. Alot of things bothered me but yet in UPCI the worship and presence of God and the life changing experiences at the altar are hard to find in other churches. My husband and I haven't been to church for over a yr. I just don't know how to explain how I feel. I am so turned off by church itself now. I have so many mixed feelings inside. I am trying to heal and not have a wall up with God either. and He seems so quiet thru all of this I know He doesn't leave us but I wish He would give my husband and I more guidance and answers... and healing... any advice? does it just take time? can you share what you have been thru if you have gone thru something like this? thank you....
Likely you are feeling guilt for your judgementalism towards others when you were UPC and now towards those in the UPC that you feel have alienated you from Christian fellowship.
It seems that time has come to wipe the slate clean. Forgive yourself and those who wronged you. Ask the Lord to help you make it happen and he will!
AreYouReady?
03-03-2012, 08:19 PM
What Hoovie said, Krt.
Many of us are in the same boat. We must learn to focus on Christ alone and the fact that it is His blood that was shed that gave us salvation. Not standards.
Gotta rise above the things we dislike and move on.
seekerman
03-03-2012, 08:23 PM
I didn't leave oneness Pentecostalism because someone 'wronged' me, I left because I no longer agreed with much of the doctrine.
Leaving the oneness Pentecostal sect isn't leaving God nor is one's relationship with God compromised by leaving the sect.
live4him
03-03-2012, 08:36 PM
Not sure where to post this and what to say! Can anyone help me thru this, I tried to search other threads of people going thru this, please leave links if I missed some. Was in UPCI 10 yrs and always felt funny about the "holiness stds" and how strict somethings were. and felt I became so judgemental of others. I felt my other non UPCI friends were more christian like than we were. Alot of things bothered me but yet in UPCI the worship and presence of God and the life changing experiences at the altar are hard to find in other churches. My husband and I haven't been to church for over a yr. I just don't know how to explain how I feel. I am so turned off by church itself now. I have so many mixed feelings inside. I am trying to heal and not have a wall up with God either. and He seems so quiet thru all of this I know He doesn't leave us but I wish He would give my husband and I more guidance and answers... and healing... any advice? does it just take time? can you share what you have been thru if you have gone thru something like this? thank you....
well I have been UPCI for years and was dissappointed about what was going on in the church. what i am talking about is like example i started seeing shorter skirts, and makeup and cut hair and television etc. well it started bothering me. i dont wanna judge anyone but i was raised with all these standards and really didnt have a problem with any of this. i lived it hard. well what broke the camels back was there was a minister here in town who went and told other ministers that we had a television and we didnt. ths minister was a friend of ours and he was in our home. and second of all why would I lie, well another minister called my hubby and said someone called him. now why would a minister of the faith cause so much discord. it bothered me. i started getting angry and came to a point of not even wanting to go back to church. i ended up backsliding but not for long. i cut my hair and started wearing pants. etc. i came to a point where I didnt care, it tore my family up for what i did. and conviction fell on me so hard. our desire is to be in the ministry. i knew i have failed but God brought me out of this, it was a tough situation. and i know things are gonna come my way. I started thinking that i didnt need to abide to the obeying of the pastor. but my spirit was wrong. i wanna live this hard. i do not beleive in television. now if someone wants to have a television thats fine. im not condemning, i beleive in holiness but because of one mans discord I almost lost my faith. I am thankful for Gods changing power. I love the Lord with all my heart and i am striving to become of another organization. I dont care to much for UPCI but i will not condemn. there are good people but i have changed my organizion in the future but God is working it out.
live4him
03-03-2012, 08:41 PM
I didn't leave oneness Pentecostalism because someone 'wronged' me, I left because I no longer agreed with much of the doctrine.
Leaving the oneness Pentecostal sect isn't leaving God nor is one's relationship with God compromised by leaving the sect.
just courious what part of the doctrine u have a disagreement with?
seekerman
03-03-2012, 08:56 PM
just courious what part of the doctrine u have a disagreement with?
Godhead, baptism, standards, church system.
AreYouReady?
03-03-2012, 09:02 PM
well I have been UPCI for years and was dissappointed about what was going on in the church. what i am talking about is like example i started seeing shorter skirts, and makeup and cut hair and television etc. well it started bothering me. i dont wanna judge anyone but i was raised with all these standards and really didnt have a problem with any of this. i lived it hard. well what broke the camels back was there was a minister here in town who went and told other ministers that we had a television and we didnt. ths minister was a friend of ours and he was in our home. and second of all why would I lie, well another minister called my hubby and said someone called him. now why would a minister of the faith cause so much discord. it bothered me. i started getting angry and came to a point of not even wanting to go back to church. i ended up backsliding but not for long. i cut my hair and started wearing pants. etc. i came to a point where I didnt care, it tore my family up for what i did. and conviction fell on me so hard. our desire is to be in the ministry. i knew i have failed but God brought me out of this, it was a tough situation. and i know things are gonna come my way. I started thinking that i didnt need to abide to the obeying of the pastor. but my spirit was wrong. i wanna live this hard. i do not beleive in television. now if someone wants to have a television thats fine. im not condemning, i beleive in holiness but because of one mans discord I almost lost my faith. I am thankful for Gods changing power. I love the Lord with all my heart and i am striving to become of another organization. I dont care to much for UPCI but i will not condemn. there are good people but i have changed my organizion in the future but God is working it out.
live4him, none of this negates the blood of Christ. Not television, not makeup, not shorter skirts. None of this will save you...only the applied blood of Christ. I am still a oneness believer and I love my trinitarian brothers and sisters too. It is not for me to say someone else is not saved.
People lied on Jesus. Offenses will come but we do not have to stay in a place where we become bitter at somebody else's lie or mistreatment.
Listen to what Christ said:
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Matthew 5:11,12.
Hey...I think I am talking to myself more than I am talking to you. :heeheehee
bbyrd009
03-04-2012, 08:52 AM
Not sure where to post this and what to say! Can anyone help me thru this, I tried to search other threads of people going thru this, please leave links if I missed some. Was in UPCI 10 yrs and always felt funny about the "holiness stds" and how strict somethings were. and felt I became so judgemental of others. I felt my other non UPCI friends were more christian like than we were. Alot of things bothered me but yet in UPCI the worship and presence of God and the life changing experiences at the altar are hard to find in other churches. My husband and I haven't been to church for over a yr. I just don't know how to explain how I feel. I am so turned off by church itself now. I have so many mixed feelings inside. I am trying to heal and not have a wall up with God either. and He seems so quiet thru all of this I know He doesn't leave us but I wish He would give my husband and I more guidance and answers... and healing... any advice? does it just take time? can you share what you have been thru if you have gone thru something like this? thank you....
Well, I think you're in the right place. God backs off so we can grow, although knowing that seems little comfort at the time. You are not alone, and see that anything you do to demonstrate life, more abundantly to your circle is planting seeds.
http://www.wikihow.com/Lose-Your-Religion
Michael Phelps
03-04-2012, 10:12 AM
Not sure where to post this and what to say! Can anyone help me thru this, I tried to search other threads of people going thru this, please leave links if I missed some. Was in UPCI 10 yrs and always felt funny about the "holiness stds" and how strict somethings were. and felt I became so judgemental of others. I felt my other non UPCI friends were more christian like than we were. Alot of things bothered me but yet in UPCI the worship and presence of God and the life changing experiences at the altar are hard to find in other churches. My husband and I haven't been to church for over a yr. I just don't know how to explain how I feel. I am so turned off by church itself now. I have so many mixed feelings inside. I am trying to heal and not have a wall up with God either. and He seems so quiet thru all of this I know He doesn't leave us but I wish He would give my husband and I more guidance and answers... and healing... any advice? does it just take time? can you share what you have been thru if you have gone thru something like this? thank you....
I left about 7 years ago, after having been raised in it, attending a UPC Bible College, being a licensed minister, and even pastoring a UPC church. It takes a while to get your mind straight. I have no bitterness against the UPC or anyone in it, and I wasn't wronged - have just struggled with most of the standards and doctrine of the UPC all of my life. I stayed in it because it was familiar, and because of the peer pressure. When we finally broke free, of course we had to deal with the unfamiliarity and newness of where we were, and the natural urge is to return to the familiar. This is what many people refer to as "conviction", but it's nothing more than sentimentalism, in my book....like missing a house you've lived in for a long time when you move to a new one.......you will eventually find your balance, but just picture a pendulum....when it's let go, it never goes immediately to the center, it swings back and forth a few times........but, each time it swings a bit less to the extreme, and begins to find it's balance. Hang in there, develop a personal relationship with God that doesn't involve anyone else's idea of what makes God happy and what makes Him mad...........you'll get there!
KeptByTheWord
03-04-2012, 10:14 AM
KRT: I understand your pain, and the things you are going through. You will find many similar stories here on AFF. But don't give up on the Lord Jesus. These things too shall pass. There has been some good advice already given.
Finding some other people to home bible study with may help.
But you will have to find that your times of greatest blessing from the Lord may be when you have your own personal prayer time with the Lord. This will strengthen you more than anything else. Read the Bible like it is a lifeline, reading entire books at a time, and asking the Lord to open your understanding.
This is a time of growth and pruning for you. Pruning hurts. But the new growth that will come because of the pruning is worth it.
Will be praying for you. Our family has also been in the situation you describe. But God is faithful. Our relationship with the Lord now is much stronger, and based on a personal relationship with Jesus himself each and EVERY DAY, and not just the 2-3 weekly "pit stops" at church....
Godsdrummer
03-05-2012, 06:32 AM
If only there were groups like this years ago many that have left performance based religions would not have lost hope because of those still in thier old way judgeing them as lost. I only want to add to what Michael Phelps has said, don't go back, and don't let those that would bring condemnation on you affect you, they are still binded by the traditions of men and not the true word of God. I too was a UPCI pastor, raised in UPCI from the time I was two or three. I too left not over what was done to me but because I did not agree with the doctrines. Take this time to build a deep personal relationship with God by deeper study of his word with your husband asking God to continue to show you what is truly his word not the traditions you were told were his word. I recomend a good book to start you on the way called neo-phariseism.
Amanah
03-05-2012, 07:44 AM
Philippians 4 is a great comfort to me.
God is promising that if we will take our concerns to him in prayer that he will guard our hearts and minds and give us peace.
4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand; 6 do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. 7 And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. 9 What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.
We left about 7 years ago over doctrine. (Has it been that long already??) We were wronged, very wronged and yet, that isn't why we left. We left because we no longer agreed. Since we were pastoring we needed to make a choice whether we could continue to lead people into what we no longer believed. Feeling it would be wrong to do that, we left.
At the time, I thought a couple of months out and all issues would be resolved. Was I ever wrong! I found out that the UPC is in my DNA and will be forever. And I'm okay with that now. There is both good and bad about that.
We haven't attended church regularly in a couple of years. I'm okay with that too. I'm happier now than I ever was when I was in the UPC. It takes time to sort things out in your mind.
Take comfort in the idea that it takes time and you will slowly mend. If you make choices based in logic and in your own mind (what you know to be right), I believe you (and I) will be led the right way.
Peace. :)
Michael Phelps
03-05-2012, 08:47 AM
We left about 7 years ago over doctrine. (Has it been that long already??) We were wronged, very wronged and yet, that isn't why we left. We left because we no longer agreed. Since we were pastoring we needed to make a choice whether we could continue to lead people into what we no longer believed. Feeling it would be wrong to do that, we left.
At the time, I thought a couple of months out and all issues would be resolved. Was I ever wrong! I found out that the UPC is in my DNA and will be forever. And I'm okay with that now. There is both good and bad about that.
We haven't attended church regularly in a couple of years. I'm okay with that too. I'm happier now than I ever was when I was in the UPC. It takes time to sort things out in your mind.
Take comfort in the idea that it takes time and you will slowly mend. If you make choices based in logic and in your own mind (what you know to be right), I believe you (and I) will be led the right way.
Peace. :)
:thumbsup
:thumbsup
I see you've been gone 7 years too. I completely agree with what you say about sentimentalism. I do get sentimental and then I remember that my feelings are more based on what I wished the UPC had been rather than on what it really is. If it was the things I had wanted it to be, I never would have left!
I do miss some of it. But mostly, I am glad to be gone. I remember that I can have all those things and be out too.
I think what I miss most of all is knowing what people's belief systems were....it was kind of comforting (in some ways) to know what to expect from people's behavior. However, people often broke the codes and it was highly confusing when they did. I wish people were honorable in the church and out, but mostly, I find it makes no difference. People inside and outside the church can be either honorable or not.
The Matt
03-05-2012, 09:06 AM
Lord bless you and keep you. Don't let your experience turn you off of all churches. There are some who have modernized. There are some who understand that people are human beings. Church should simply be a place of fellowship, to be built up in the Lord. May the Lord bring joy into your life, in places you never thought imaginable.
KeptByTheWord
03-05-2012, 10:15 AM
We left about 7 years ago over doctrine. (Has it been that long already??) We were wronged, very wronged and yet, that isn't why we left. We left because we no longer agreed. Since we were pastoring we needed to make a choice whether we could continue to lead people into what we no longer believed. Feeling it would be wrong to do that, we left.
At the time, I thought a couple of months out and all issues would be resolved. Was I ever wrong! I found out that the UPC is in my DNA and will be forever. And I'm okay with that now. There is both good and bad about that.
We haven't attended church regularly in a couple of years. I'm okay with that too. I'm happier now than I ever was when I was in the UPC. It takes time to sort things out in your mind.
Take comfort in the idea that it takes time and you will slowly mend. If you make choices based in logic and in your own mind (what you know to be right), I believe you (and I) will be led the right way.
Peace. :)
I agree with this too! We've only been gone from the OP and UPC a little over a year, but it feels like an eternity since we've left, with all we've gone through. Almost all of our extended family remain in the UPC or even stricter sects of OP. That makes it really hard when we all get together still!
I have to amen what you've said ILG, even with all that, we are happier now than when we were part of the UPC, although there is sentimentalism involved and that is hard to overcome, but once you have taken the blinders off, it is almost impossible to go back.
If you could take out the judgmentalism and almost manic adherence to the standards issue out of the OP, then perhaps you would have a place where people could be free to apply personal convictions to their own lives, and it would be so much better. But I don't see that changing any time soon.
ILG - are you still writing your book? I remember you had mentioned writing a book about your experiences some time ago...
I agree with this too! We've only been gone from the OP and UPC a little over a year, but it feels like an eternity since we've left, with all we've gone through. Almost all of our extended family remain in the UPC or even stricter sects of OP. That makes it really hard when we all get together still!
I have to amen what you've said ILG, even with all that, we are happier now than when we were part of the UPC, although there is sentimentalism involved and that is hard to overcome, but once you have taken the blinders off, it is almost impossible to go back.
If you could take out the judgmentalism and almost manic adherence to the standards issue out of the OP, then perhaps you would have a place where people could be free to apply personal convictions to their own lives, and it would be so much better. But I don't see that changing any time soon.
ILG - are you still writing your book? I remember you had mentioned writing a book about your experiences some time ago...
I wrote the book last summer. All I have to do is edit it. I want to and I want people to read it. Fear of the people in the book is what keeps me from going further with it right now. I am just not sure how to go through with it.
Nitehawk013
03-05-2012, 10:27 AM
So you were in a church, enjoying the worship and presence of God, but you disagreed with the "standards".
Then you leave that church, have not been to church since, feel that God is now silent and isn't speaking to you.
I guess I am just the only crazy one who thinks that maybe, just maybe, the answer to your problem is to go back to church and talk to your Pastor. Let him know you don't agree with standards, but you would rather be in church feeling God than out of church. I know that is just insane advice for this forum since the MO of most here is to do nothing but trash the UPC and traditional OP churches, but you sounded like you were happier when you were in church. So go back.
Or just stay out of church and assume it's ok to not go to church, ok to have bitter feelings about the UPC and those associated withit and ok to just make up your own religion and beliefs on the fly as long as you have others who will say it's ok.
KeptByTheWord
03-05-2012, 10:30 AM
I wrote the book last summer. All I have to do is edit it. I want to and I want people to read it. Fear of the people in the book is what keeps me from going further with it right now. I am just not sure how to go through with it.
I understand exactly what you are saying... I have wanted to write a book too, but because I have family members still part of it all, it makes it very hard to go forward with it, because it would hurt them so much.
I will pray for you and for wisdom... perhaps you could leave out the names and specific details that would certainly identify the people that you are afraid of hurting... or exposing... or write under an alias?
NorCal
03-05-2012, 10:31 AM
I, like you have had issues in the past. But what one must realize is this "Is it worth doing something that I enjoy worth more then the splintering of the branch?" To me, I say no.
As Christians, we must realize that the benefits of this work are only temporary. Meaning, missing sports, clothing, style, etc is not worth missing the benefits of reaching heaven. If there is one thing that I learned is that the cross is sometime to hard for "Christians" to bare.
I think people look at the UPCI as a huge legalistic system, and trust me, some of them can be. But let me tell you, if there is something that you can not give up in this world for the benefits of the next, then you are looking at it in the wrong perspective. You are the one looking at it in a legalistic way, and not in a matter of the heart way.
I am not one that says you have to be Amish/Mennonite to obtain salvation and separation from the world. But, you do need to follow the spirit, and the spirit of the man that God has placed you under (not at a slave or subordinate, but out of respect to the Elder).
If there is one thing that I have learned, is that my relationship with God is between Him and I; relationships with anyone else really does not matter.
I understand exactly what you are saying... I have wanted to write a book too, but because I have family members still part of it all, it makes it very hard to go forward with it, because it would hurt them so much.
I will pray for you and for wisdom... perhaps you could leave out the names and specific details that would certainly identify the people that you are afraid of hurting... or exposing... or write under an alias?
I have no family in the church and fully intend to change all names (that's part of the editing) and not use my real name to sign it. My only concern is that the events could be identifying.
My intent in writing this book is to help and not harm. When I decided to write it, it just flew out of my fingers. I wrote all summer. My family members and a few friends and co-workers have read it and that has all been very positive (but they are not tied to the UPC). It has very much helped in mending some fences with close family who did not understand some of my actions and judgmentalism etc. So, so far, it has been all positive. It was also very healing for me to get it all on paper, go back through all of the events and think about them and say, hey, I wasn't crazy, this all really happened, is all documented and could easily make a very readable book. I felt a strong go a head to write it and share it so far. I am waiting for the go ahead from God and my insides to carry on. I wish I could just publish it (online or otherwise) but I just am unsure of the fallout.
Thanks for understanding. It's a hard decision.
Nitehawk013
03-05-2012, 11:07 AM
It's not as if you are forced to give anything up to begin with. Pastors and such are not police. If you cut your hair or wear jeans (women) the "holiness police" don't come and arrest you. No one is hiding in your bushes trying to catch you drinking a beer or watching a movie.
Unless you go to a really really strict and overzealous church, the scenario is pretty much the same. The Pastor preaches his version of holiness for that church and you choose whether to follow it or not. If you don't, you simply won't be holding a position that involves teaching or preaching (or leading in praise sinigng likely). UNless you are attending Epleys church (just teasing sir) you probably arent being told you are going straight to hell for wearing pants or cutting your hair. Your Pastor probably isn't calling you out and embarrassing you in public.
This whole thing get sblown out of proportion MORE by the LIB crowd than the conservatives. I know a number of Pastors who are conservative, yet if you choose to not follow the standards as they teach them you aren't run off or condemned to eternal hell. You simply can't hold a teaching or platform position in the church. The LIB side acts like those who preach standards are out spying on their saints just hoping for a "gotcha" moment to pounce on them and rebuke. It isn't that way and likely hasn't been for 30+ years.
Legalism isn't asking people to have some distinction from the rest of the world that by and large dresses immodestly and carries itself with no class. Legalism is just a buzzword for anything that dares challenge people to be better than the lowest common denominator around them. McDonalds is more legalistic than any church. They will not even employ you inf you refuse to wear their uniform. No church that I have EVER heard of will tell people they cannot attend a service if they refuse to dress like the rest of the church.
AreYouReady?
03-05-2012, 11:59 AM
No church that I have EVER heard of will tell people they cannot attend a service if they refuse to dress like the rest of the church.
Maybe not, but they sure do make it quite uncomfortable for you to attend.
Michael Phelps
03-05-2012, 12:00 PM
So you were in a church, enjoying the worship and presence of God, but you disagreed with the "standards".
Then you leave that church, have not been to church since, feel that God is now silent and isn't speaking to you.
I guess I am just the only crazy one who thinks that maybe, just maybe, the answer to your problem is to go back to church and talk to your Pastor. Let him know you don't agree with standards, but you would rather be in church feeling God than out of church. I know that is just insane advice for this forum since the MO of most here is to do nothing but trash the UPC and traditional OP churches, but you sounded like you were happier when you were in church. So go back.
Or just stay out of church and assume it's ok to not go to church, ok to have bitter feelings about the UPC and those associated withit and ok to just make up your own religion and beliefs on the fly as long as you have others who will say it's ok.
This is why I left:laffatu
Not really, but this attitude stinks.
Michael Phelps
03-05-2012, 12:03 PM
I, like you have had issues in the past. But what one must realize is this "Is it worth doing something that I enjoy worth more then the splintering of the branch?" To me, I say no.
As Christians, we must realize that the benefits of this work are only temporary. Meaning, missing sports, clothing, style, etc is not worth missing the benefits of reaching heaven. If there is one thing that I learned is that the cross is sometime to hard for "Christians" to bare.
I think people look at the UPCI as a huge legalistic system, and trust me, some of them can be. But let me tell you, if there is something that you can not give up in this world for the benefits of the next, then you are looking at it in the wrong perspective. You are the one looking at it in a legalistic way, and not in a matter of the heart way.
I am not one that says you have to be Amish/Mennonite to obtain salvation and separation from the world. But, you do need to follow the spirit, and the spirit of the man that God has placed you under (not at a slave or subordinate, but out of respect to the Elder).
If there is one thing that I have learned, is that my relationship with God is between Him and I; relationships with anyone else really does not matter.
I think you kind of contradicted yourself here. In the first paragraph, you state that personal fulfillment is not worth splintering the branch, or affecting others, as I interpret it. Maybe I read it incorrectly.
Unfortunately, I find that many folks who really want to leave an organized religious structure but stay, stay not because they feel God wants them there, but stay out of peer pressure. Trying to please others. Not wanting to upset the apple cart.
That's absolutely the wrong reason to stay. If God directs you to stay - stay. But, don't do it to please others.
Pressing-On
03-05-2012, 12:36 PM
If God directs you to stay - stay. But, don't do it to please others.
:thumbsup :thumbsup
It's not as if you are forced to give anything up to begin with. Pastors and such are not police. If you cut your hair or wear jeans (women) the "holiness police" don't come and arrest you. No one is hiding in your bushes trying to catch you drinking a beer or watching a movie.
Unless you go to a really really strict and overzealous church, the scenario is pretty much the same. The Pastor preaches his version of holiness for that church and you choose whether to follow it or not. If you don't, you simply won't be holding a position that involves teaching or preaching (or leading in praise sinigng likely). UNless you are attending Epleys church (just teasing sir) you probably arent being told you are going straight to hell for wearing pants or cutting your hair. Your Pastor probably isn't calling you out and embarrassing you in public.
This whole thing get sblown out of proportion MORE by the LIB crowd than the conservatives. I know a number of Pastors who are conservative, yet if you choose to not follow the standards as they teach them you aren't run off or condemned to eternal hell. You simply can't hold a teaching or platform position in the church. The LIB side acts like those who preach standards are out spying on their saints just hoping for a "gotcha" moment to pounce on them and rebuke. It isn't that way and likely hasn't been for 30+ years.
Legalism isn't asking people to have some distinction from the rest of the world that by and large dresses immodestly and carries itself with no class. Legalism is just a buzzword for anything that dares challenge people to be better than the lowest common denominator around them. McDonalds is more legalistic than any church. They will not even employ you inf you refuse to wear their uniform. No church that I have EVER heard of will tell people they cannot attend a service if they refuse to dress like the rest of the church.
I have agreed with both of your posts.
I was raised in a home that was conservative. We were raised in a very conservative district, went to a fairly conservative church. I never was afraid that the pastor was driving around spying on everyone in the church. I could also generally tell you who was or was not living what he preached.
I have heard my father say many times that he is not God's policeman who is going to be looking to catch people not living what he preaches. If he discovers that a person is not living right, then he will take appropriate measures, but he does not go looking to see if everyone is lining up all the time.
Michael Phelps
03-05-2012, 12:47 PM
I have agreed with both of your posts.
I was raised in a home that was conservative. We were raised in a very conservative district, went to a fairly conservative church. I never was afraid that the pastor was driving around spying on everyone in the church. I could also generally tell you who was or was not living what he preached.
I have heard my father say many times that he is not God's policeman who is going to be looking to catch people not living what he preaches. If he discovers that a person is not living right, then he will take appropriate measures, but he does not go looking to see if everyone is lining up all the time.
You guys can claim this all you want, but you know as well as I do, if you belong to a UPC or other "holiness" church, and let's say your a woman who walks in with her hair cut, and some jewelry and makeup on, you WILL be treated differently. Most likely like a pariah, or at the very least a backslider.
So, it's easy to say there are no "holiness police" out there, but there are....they are just undercover......like the holiness CIA :happydance
And, guess what? Before you jump down my throat, let me clarify....I'm not saying that's a bad thing. What makes Apostolic churches successful (at least in their own eyes) is uniformity. Everyone is dressing the same way, we can all tell who is "holy" and living "right", we have a platform standard that we measure you by so we'll know if you can sing in the choir, etc. (Ironically, on most of those checklists, you only find things relating to the outward appearance, but that's neither here nor there for this discussion).
So, my thought is - if you don't feel led to live by the standards the church has set forth, then you should leave. If you decide to stay, then you should honor the culture of the church and live by those standards. Don't cause confusion, don't cause dissension, and don't create chaos.
Just my two cents!
Nitehawk013
03-05-2012, 12:56 PM
My church is "holiness" yet we have a LARGE number of women who do not live the standard as it is taught. Good grief, we have multiple women who wear jewelry and makeup to service every week who are on our greeter staff. Our choir has a number of women who clearly cut their hair or dye it.
They aren't made to feel likeless of a member. They are brought in adn made to feel like part of the church. Over time they will hopfully choose to live what is taught and preached. If they do not, they will still be part of the church.
I don't know where some of you have been that you have this idea that peopel are made to feel like outcasts for not living the standard, or what year you thinkit is. I understand that sort of thing ran rampant 30-40 years ago, but I've been in the church for nearly 20 years and have never seen or heard of it in my years around the church.
As to going where God leads, I agree. We should Go where God tells us. As to this thread though, apparently God stopped saying a word to the poster as soon as they left the church. If God spoke telling them to leave a church, then don't you think He would have continued to speak to them after they left considering just how hard and traumatic leaving a church can be?
Maybe God wasn't telling them to leave. Maybe they simply felt uncomfortable and bailed instead of telling their Pastor they didn't agree with standards, but still wanted to be in church.
We are not getting the whoel story b/c it is NOT adding up.
RandyWayne
03-05-2012, 12:58 PM
You guys can claim this all you want, but you know as well as I do, if you belong to a UPC or other "holiness" church, and let's say your a woman who walks in with her hair cut, and some jewelry and makeup on, you WILL be treated differently. Most likely like a pariah, or at the very least a backslider.
So, it's easy to say there are no "holiness police" out there, but there are....they are just undercover......like the holiness CIA :happydance
And, guess what? Before you jump down my throat, let me clarify....I'm not saying that's a bad thing. What makes Apostolic churches successful (at least in their own eyes) is uniformity. Everyone is dressing the same way, we can all tell who is "holy" and living "right", we have a platform standard that we measure you by so we'll know if you can sing in the choir, etc. (Ironically, on most of those checklists, you only find things relating to the outward appearance, but that's neither here nor there for this discussion).
So, my thought is - if you don't feel led to live by the standards the church has set forth, then you should leave. If you decide to stay, then you should honor the culture of the church and live by those standards. Don't cause confusion, don't cause dissension, and don't create chaos.
Just my two cents!
To say that "Our church is ultra conservative and WE don't have any sort of 'holiness policy!'" is really no different than the leader of an extreme cult saying 'ANYONE can leave. We don't have a lock on our front door!'. Both may be technically correct statements but they are also very very wrong.
I attended a very conservative church during the 80's and the pastor never came over to search through our closets or dresser drawers but boy of boy, if you ever did anything that was known to be against church teaching you WOULD hear about it from the pulpit along with a story or three of someone who disobeyed the pastor and either died or felt the Holy Ghost leave them, or usually both.
Michael Phelps
03-05-2012, 12:59 PM
My church is "holiness" yet we have a LARGE number of women who do not live the standard as it is taught. Good grief, we have multiple women who wear jewelry and makeup to service every week who are on our greeter staff. Our choir has a number of women who clearly cut their hair or dye it.
They aren't made to feel likeless of a member. They are brought in adn made to feel like part of the church. Over time they will hopfully choose to live what is taught and preached. If they do not, they will still be part of the church.
I don't know where some of you have been that you have this idea that peopel are made to feel like outcasts for not living the standard, or what year you thinkit is. I understand that sort of thing ran rampant 30-40 years ago, but I've been in the church for nearly 20 years and have never seen or heard of it in my years around the church.
As to going where God leads, I agree. We should Go where God tells us. As to this thread though, apparently God stopped saying a word to the poster as soon as they left the church. If God spoke telling them to leave a church, then don't you think He would have continued to speak to them after they left considering just how hard and traumatic leaving a church can be?
Maybe God wasn't telling them to leave. Maybe they simply felt uncomfortable and bailed instead of telling their Pastor they didn't agree with standards, but still wanted to be in church.
We are not getting the whoel story b/c it is NOT adding up.
I just want to clarify - people who are just coming in to the church and don't adhere to the standard are treated MUCH differently than those who DID adhere to the standard and then stopped.
In my experience, that is.
RandyWayne
03-05-2012, 01:00 PM
My church is "holiness" yet we have a LARGE number of women who do not live the standard as it is taught. Good grief, we have multiple women who wear jewelry and makeup to service every week who are on our greeter staff. Our choir has a number of women who clearly cut their hair or dye it.
They aren't made to feel likeless of a member. They are brought in adn made to feel like part of the church. Over time they will hopfully choose to live what is taught and preached. If they do not, they will still be part of the church.
I don't know where some of you have been that you have this idea that peopel are made to feel like outcasts for not living the standard, or what year you thinkit is. I understand that sort of thing ran rampant 30-40 years ago, but I've been in the church for nearly 20 years and have never seen or heard of it in my years around the church.
As to going where God leads, I agree. We should Go where God tells us. As to this thread though, apparently God stopped saying a word to the poster as soon as they left the church. If God spoke telling them to leave a church, then don't you think He would have continued to speak to them after they left considering just how hard and traumatic leaving a church can be?
Maybe God wasn't telling them to leave. Maybe they simply felt uncomfortable and bailed instead of telling their Pastor they didn't agree with standards, but still wanted to be in church.
We are not getting the whoel story b/c it is NOT adding up.
Your church is NOT the norm. Not even close.
AreYouReady?
03-05-2012, 01:07 PM
My church is "holiness" yet we have a LARGE number of women who do not live the standard as it is taught. Good grief, we have multiple women who wear jewelry and makeup to service every week who are on our greeter staff. Our choir has a number of women who clearly cut their hair or dye it.
They aren't made to feel likeless of a member. They are brought in adn made to feel like part of the church. Over time they will hopfully choose to live what is taught and preached. If they do not, they will still be part of the church.
I don't know where some of you have been that you have this idea that peopel are made to feel like outcasts for not living the standard, or what year you thinkit is. I understand that sort of thing ran rampant 30-40 years ago, but I've been in the church for nearly 20 years and have never seen or heard of it in my years around the church.
As to going where God leads, I agree. We should Go where God tells us. As to this thread though, apparently God stopped saying a word to the poster as soon as they left the church. If God spoke telling them to leave a church, then don't you think He would have continued to speak to them after they left considering just how hard and traumatic leaving a church can be?
Maybe God wasn't telling them to leave. Maybe they simply felt uncomfortable and bailed instead of telling their Pastor they didn't agree with standards, but still wanted to be in church.
We are not getting the whoel story b/c it is NOT adding up.
Apparently, you have not been in many parts of the country where OP UPC still ostracizes people, mainly women, for not upholding UPC stated standards.
You attend a modern church. I am happy for you.
Michael Phelps
03-05-2012, 01:09 PM
Apparently, you have not been in many parts of the country where OP UPC still ostracizes people, mainly women, for not upholding UPC stated standards.
You attend a modern church. I am happy for you.
:thumbsup
To say that "Our church is ultra conservative and WE don't have any sort of 'holiness policy!'" is really no different than the leader of an extreme cult saying 'ANYONE can leave. We don't have a lock on our front door!'. Both may be technically correct statements but they are also very very wrong.
I attended a very conservative church during the 80's and the pastor never came over to search through our closets or dresser drawers but boy of boy, if you ever did anything that was known to be against church teaching you WOULD hear about it from the pulpit along with a story or three of someone who disobeyed the pastor and either died or felt the Holy Ghost leave them, or usually both.
Yep.
Hoovie
03-05-2012, 02:09 PM
I just want to clarify - people who are just coming in to the church and don't adhere to the standard are treated MUCH differently than those who DID adhere to the standard and then stopped.
In my experience, that is.
I will agree with that. Further, I know of many who have gone to a "standards preaching" church for decades without being mistreated. It quite likely will limit the involvement as far as teaching and leadership, but does not automatically threaten their status as a brother or sister.
For those who claim they were in an abusive church where tongue screws and human torches were the norm... I am sorry. I can't relate, but am sorry they were forced to endure pain.
RandyWayne
03-05-2012, 02:11 PM
I will agree with that. Further, I know of many who have gone to a "standards preaching" church for decades without being mistreated. It quite likely will limit the involvement as far as teaching and leadership, but does not automatically threaten their status as a brother or sister.
For those who claim they were in an abusive church where tongue screws and human torches were the norm... I am sorry - I can't relate.
Well, we all know that words can be just as painful, and leave a much longer lasting scar then any (OK, most) physical abuse. And no, I never heard of a church that practiced any form of physical punishment (yes, I know you were being sarcastic).
I will agree with that. Further, I know of many who have gone to a "standards preaching" church for decades without being mistreated. It quite likely will limit the involvement as far as teaching and leadership, but does not automatically threaten their status as a brother or sister.
For those who claim they were in an abusive church where tongue screws and human torches were the norm... I am sorry. I can't relate, but am sorry they were forced to endure pain.
For me it was never standards that were an issue, at least as far as following them and living them....it was the inconsistencies that bothered me and the inability or unwillingness of anyone to explain it.
The abuse I suffered had more to do with people's refusal to deal with issues that should have been dealt with. I guess standards were a part of that but largely it was much bigger issues than that.
My church is "holiness" yet we have a LARGE number of women who do not live the standard as it is taught. Good grief, we have multiple women who wear jewelry and makeup to service every week who are on our greeter staff. Our choir has a number of women who clearly cut their hair or dye it.
They aren't made to feel likeless of a member. They are brought in adn made to feel like part of the church. Over time they will hopfully choose to live what is taught and preached. If they do not, they will still be part of the church.
I don't know where some of you have been that you have this idea that peopel are made to feel like outcasts for not living the standard, or what year you thinkit is. I understand that sort of thing ran rampant 30-40 years ago, but I've been in the church for nearly 20 years and have never seen or heard of it in my years around the church.
As to going where God leads, I agree. We should Go where God tells us. As to this thread though, apparently God stopped saying a word to the poster as soon as they left the church. If God spoke telling them to leave a church, then don't you think He would have continued to speak to them after they left considering just how hard and traumatic leaving a church can be?
Maybe God wasn't telling them to leave. Maybe they simply felt uncomfortable and bailed instead of telling their Pastor they didn't agree with standards, but still wanted to be in church.
We are not getting the whoel story b/c it is NOT adding up.
I have been in the church long enough to know that generally the attack on the standard is rarely the true reason that a person leaves. Many times they have stopped praying, worshipping, and participating in the service. After this comes a disgruntled attitude, bitterness, and attacking the people and standards of the church. These are things that I have seen with my own eyes.
Many times, those who have an issue with the standards of the church from the beginning will only attend services, but will not actually pray through. They do not as a rule run the standard down, at least not to saints who are committed to God and the church. They generally (if they are going to attack the standards) will find those who are cold and carnal and sway them.
The issue is almost never the standard, but rather carnality or a love for the things in this world. I have yet to see this pattern be too far amiss.
You guys can claim this all you want, but you know as well as I do, if you belong to a UPC or other "holiness" church, and let's say your a woman who walks in with her hair cut, and some jewelry and makeup on, you WILL be treated differently. Most likely like a pariah, or at the very least a backslider.
So, it's easy to say there are no "holiness police" out there, but there are....they are just undercover......like the holiness CIA :happydance
And, guess what? Before you jump down my throat, let me clarify....I'm not saying that's a bad thing. What makes Apostolic churches successful (at least in their own eyes) is uniformity. Everyone is dressing the same way, we can all tell who is "holy" and living "right", we have a platform standard that we measure you by so we'll know if you can sing in the choir, etc. (Ironically, on most of those checklists, you only find things relating to the outward appearance, but that's neither here nor there for this discussion).
So, my thought is - if you don't feel led to live by the standards the church has set forth, then you should leave. If you decide to stay, then you should honor the culture of the church and live by those standards. Don't cause confusion, don't cause dissension, and don't create chaos.
Just my two cents!
Again, this has never been the case with any of the churches that I have been in. This includes both those who have been in the world and are present for the first time, those who are attendees only, and those who have backslid. My own sister has walked through the doors of the church fully backslid, and we never made an issue of her apparel. This is an excuse by those who are under conviction for avoiding returning to church.
Having been used in more than one church and at an occasional function, many times the pastor is the one to verify the selection of a person to a certain role, and that person meets what the pastor desires in prayer, worship, and other areas of living. I grew up very closely associated with church leaders, and the way that the selection process was done. There is much more that goes into picking people for leadership roles than the neckline, hemline, and sleeve length.
I would never jump down a person's throat unless I was attempting to clear it so that they could breathe. :heeheehee
AreYouReady?
03-05-2012, 06:22 PM
Well...all I got to say, Jay, is that since you are still quite young, you still have much to learn. Come to the rural areas of the USA and you will live some learnin.
Well...all I got to say, Jay, is that since you are still quite young, you still have much to learn. Come to the rural areas of the USA and you will live some learnin.
I lived in rural communities, and Dad has preached in them. Not all of them by any means, and there are bad apples in every barrel. However, I have known several fine pastors who were in rural communities. I have also known men who some might describe as fine, but were something else entirely.
AreYouReady?
03-05-2012, 06:42 PM
What is "rural" to you?
Far western Kansas would be considered rural. Towns of as few as 5000 people tops. Maybe as high as 15,000 in a single community with no other sizable poplation centers for nearly an hour in any direction. I have also been to small towns in Texas and Illinois.
AreYouReady?
03-05-2012, 06:53 PM
How long at a time have you lived in these "rural" areas?
I lived in Kansas for nearly 9 years. I have lived and traveled in Illinois for 10, and I lived in Texas for 8 years. That is not the sum total of my age, and Illinois would actually be closer to 12 years if you count my being born here. These are not exact years for obvious reasons.
AreYouReady?
03-05-2012, 07:11 PM
Have you ever lived in the tiny towns of the deep south?
Deep south is a situation that I would love to visit, but have not yet had the pleasure. Are you saying that there is a difference between the rural areas of Kansas, Texas, Missouri, Illinois, and Iowa and those in the Deep South?
AreYouReady?
03-05-2012, 08:35 PM
When I moved from the northern midwest to the small town deep south, I was in culture shock. I had to learn the "language" of the people. I had to learn how these people think. I found out why many of the native locals really dislike northerners. I have never encountered a place like where I am at... and I lived in several places. I am a northern big city girl living in southern rural country places now. God has placed me here and it has been a learning experience.
Now are the churches here that much different than rural northern towns or towns in Texas? Apparently not since Randy Wayne and T2W described basically the same thing as I experienced down here. While you described that you are in leadership positions and you grew up with your parents in leadership positions, you have very little idea what the people who are walk in saints from another religion think and feel about this deep inside themselves. You were raised in this from a little child I presume? If not then I apologize for presuming that you were.
I was born and raised in the Catholic religion. I do not call it a denomination of Christianity. Maybe someday I will explain this more thoroughly. There is a vast difference and I had to change my entire concept of who God is and release what I've learned all my life and relearn what little of the Bible I did actually learn. I solely had to rely on the Holy Spirit to lead and guide me into truth. Believe it or not, some UPC saints hindered that process.
Did I have a problem with the standards when I first came to an OP church? No. I have a genuine experience with Christ and I researched out which church denomination I wanted to attend and get baptized in when the Holy Spirit drew me to God. I thought that standards were not necessary things for salvation, but I took the mindset, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". I did it primarily to fit in...to be accepted by the other UPC members. I was shown select scriptures and the implication was there to dress like all the other women. I became "pentecostal" when "God told me to take off my pants and not cut my hair". You see it was important to the people that I voiced those words so that my doing these things would not be construed as me being pushed into it. Sadly, I really thought at the time God told me to do these things, but I admit that I never actually heard His voice say it. It really was much easier to blend in than to buck the system UPC has concerning standards. And yes, people who just come into UPC are given a "grace period" to conform.
You may not agree with this but remember, you are on the other end of my spectrum.
When did I really start to turn against the physical standards they preached? When I saw my fellow brothers and sisters looking the pious pentecostal part while in services, but made fun of their fellow sisters behind their back over various things that were none of their business. I once asked them if they did not think that what they were saying about people might hurt their feelings if they knew? The answer was not that *we should not make fun of our sisters behind their back* but it was "They will never know what we said". This turned me off.
I was single at the time and shared living expenses with some of the sisters in leadership positions in church. One was a slob at home, never picking up after herself and expecting (not asking) others to do her share of the house chores. She said she hated anything false, but yet she took her "home mask" off and put on her "church mask" on Sundays and Wednesdays and everybody thought she was just soooo spiritual. Reality: She was simply a human being with all her faults just like the rest of us.
Pentecostal women gossip and ostracize people more than UPC wants to admit. It is because most of them are so unhappy with themselves that they have to criticize other female saints in the church that are not like them. It was years after I entered the UPC that I realized the name of the denomination, nor the dress standards one wishes to adhere to does not make that person a follower of Christ. What good are the standards when one does not have the Christian love for their fellow brother or sister simply because they have different views or a different physical appearance? Christ did not command us to love one another as long as we agreed or had similar viewpoints. We are to love one another despite our differences. That is how the world knows that we are disciples of Christ.
The one thing that I have noticed in both institutions was the love of money seems to be the greater love over the love of their fellow brothers and sisters. I am sure that somewhere there is a church that doesn't wham the tithe and the giving of legal tender over and over and equate it with salvation... but that would be a rare church indeed.
AreYouReady?
03-05-2012, 08:36 PM
Oh and BTW, visiting rural towns in the deep south is NOT the same and living and experiencing life here. You will get a hearty, deep south hospitality welcome, but that ends when you actually live here and do not conform.
Arphaxad
03-05-2012, 08:50 PM
I left the UPC church I was at (for almost 6 yrs) 2 weeks ago. You can guess some of the reasons if you remember that drunken rant I posted a month ago that got me banned from here for a while. When I told the pastor I was resigning from all ministry positions and leaving he almost convinced me to stay, but when I told him my mind was made up it got kind of ugly.
I never got real close with anyone there, and none of my family is upc so its been real easy for me, I don't really miss anything. I still have the HG, still pray, study the Bible, speak in tongues, holiness standards didn't affect me since I'm a guy(but i never fully agreed on the no pants for women, long= uncut hair doctrine, total abscence of jewlery and make-up, but just went along for it to not cause trouble).
Anyways I do all the things I did when i was there, just at a different church. Yeah, I've "gone charasmatic."
KeptByTheWord
03-05-2012, 09:04 PM
When I moved from the northern midwest to the small town deep south, I was in culture shock. I had to learn the "language" of the people. I had to learn how these people think. I found out why many of the native locals really dislike northerners. I have never encountered a place like where I am at... and I lived in several places. I am a northern big city girl living in southern rural country places now. God has placed me here and it has been a learning experience.
Now are the churches here that much different than rural northern towns or towns in Texas? Apparently not since Randy Wayne and T2W described basically the same thing as I experienced down here. While you described that you are in leadership positions and you grew up with your parents in leadership positions, you have very little idea what the people who are walk in saints from another religion think and feel about this deep inside themselves. You were raised in this from a little child I presume? If not then I apologize for presuming that you were.
I was born and raised in the Catholic religion. I do not call it a denomination of Christianity. Maybe someday I will explain this more thoroughly. There is a vast difference and I had to change my entire concept of who God is and release what I've learned all my life and relearn what little of the Bible I did actually learn. I solely had to rely on the Holy Spirit to lead and guide me into truth. Believe it or not, some UPC saints hindered that process.
Did I have a problem with the standards when I first came to an OP church? No. I have a genuine experience with Christ and I researched out which church denomination I wanted to attend and get baptized in when the Holy Spirit drew me to God. I thought that standards were not necessary things for salvation, but I took the mindset, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". I did it primarily to fit in...to be accepted by the other UPC members. I was shown select scriptures and the implication was there to dress like all the other women. I became "pentecostal" when "God told me to take off my pants and not cut my hair". You see it was important to the people that I voiced those words so that my doing these things would not be construed as me being pushed into it. Sadly, I really thought at the time God told me to do these things, but I admit that I never actually heard His voice say it. It really was much easier to blend in than to buck the system UPC has concerning standards. And yes, people who just come into UPC are given a "grace period" to conform.
You may not agree with this but remember, you are on the other end of my spectrum.
When did I really start to turn against the physical standards they preached? When I saw my fellow brothers and sisters looking the pious pentecostal part while in services, but made fun of their fellow sisters behind their back over various things that were none of their business. I once asked them if they did not think that what they were saying about people might hurt their feelings if they knew? The answer was not that *we should not make fun of our sisters behind their back* but it was "They will never know what we said". This turned me off.
I was single at the time and shared living expenses with some of the sisters in leadership positions in church. One was a slob at home, never picking up after herself and expecting (not asking) others to do her share of the house chores. She said she hated anything false, but yet she took her "home mask" off and put on her "church mask" on Sundays and Wednesdays and everybody thought she was just soooo spiritual. Reality: She was simply a human being with all her faults just like the rest of us.
Pentecostal women gossip and ostracize people more than UPC wants to admit. It is because most of them are so unhappy with themselves that they have to criticize other female saints in the church that are not like them. It was years after I entered the UPC that I realized the name of the denomination, nor the dress standards one wishes to adhere to does not make that person a follower of Christ. What good are the standards when one does not have the Christian love for their fellow brother or sister simply because they have different views or a different physical appearance? Christ did not command us to love one another as long as we agreed or had similar viewpoints. We are to love one another despite our differences. That is how the world knows that we are disciples of Christ.
The one thing that I have noticed in both institutions was the love of money seems to be the greater love over the love of their fellow brothers and sisters. I am sure that somewhere there is a church that doesn't wham the tithe and the giving of legal tender over and over and equate it with salvation... but that would be a rare church indeed.
ARY: Thank you for sharing your story with us. I can relate to so much of what you said too. I hope Jay (and others) can see that things can be much different on the "other" side of the pulpit.
It is encouraging to know that there are others out there fighting the same battles, and still loving the Lord with all their hearts too. I think that is why AFF has become so important to many of us. We can identify with places and situations others have been in, and there is strength in knowing you are not alone.
KRT... if you're still reading... just remember to keep your focus on Jesus and let the Word of God be the only measuring stick you own, and the puzzle pieces will come into focus in their own time.
KeptByTheWord
03-05-2012, 09:08 PM
I left the UPC church I was at (for almost 6 yrs) 2 weeks ago. You can guess some of the reasons if you remember that drunken rant I posted a month ago that got me banned from here for a while. When I told the pastor I was resigning from all ministry positions and leaving he almost convinced me to stay, but when I told him my mind was made up it got kind of ugly.
I never got real close with anyone there, and none of my family is upc so its been real easy for me, I don't really miss anything. I still have the HG, still pray, study the Bible, speak in tongues, holiness standards didn't affect me since I'm a guy(but i never fully agreed on the no pants for women, long= uncut hair doctrine, total abscence of jewlery and make-up, but just went along for it to not cause trouble).
Anyways I do all the things I did when i was there, just at a different church. Yeah, I've "gone charasmatic."
I'm glad you've found another church to attend. Things get pretty rough sometimes, and the "pendulum" can swing pretty wildly for a while as you try to sort things out in your mind. Will be praying for you as you work through all of this... it can take a while. But keeping your focus on Jesus and the Word of God... and not on people will help... a lot!
I feel for your situation. I am sorry that you saw people who were not qualified for leadership roles. I have not said that I was in leadership, however I have been around leadership. I am aware that sometimes carnal people can rise to positions of leadership, and not always do people use their best judgment. This is partly a result of people being foolish or carnal. As long as there are imperfect people in the church, they will not behave perfectly. The other thing that could have been done would be to decline the opportunity to associate with these ladies very much.
I will admit to not having known all that there is, however this carnality is indicative of a lack of prayer and compassion. You were right and they in the wrong. Gossip like that does get back to people.
As for standards, only very rarely do people actually 'hear the voice of God' concerning these things. Generally it comes through study of the Word, prayer, and education. I do know that many times women (not sure why most men seem to fall in line with the possible exception of sleeves) will naturally start letting their hair grow, put away makeup and jewelry, and move toward skirts all the time. This is not always true as people advance at different speeds. I knew ladies that took nearly 6 months before they stopped wearing jewelry entirely, and on the other end some have quit within a short time and not understood why they had felt condemnation wearing it. The first was taught, and the other felt and then was taught. The learning curve is unique to all, even those who were raised in the church.
Standardsl do not remain the same for all people at all times. My parents have gradually changed their standards over the course of many years. They wore shorter sleves, had wedding rings, and a few other things. However, as they traveled through life, they realized that shorter sleeves showed more than was modest, applied the teachings against the wearing of gold to the wedding ring and other things that might be considered jewelry.
They then passed these on to us. Dad, being Pastor, hold to sleeves below the elbow, no rings, etc. Mom and Dad both wear their sleeves at three quarters. I alternate between wrist and shortly below the elbow (personal preference as three quarters just does not feel 'rolled up' enough for me).
People may view us as being extreme, but we are not that different. One thing that we endevour to teach is the importance of being holy internally as well as externally. That means not mocking people, loving one another (difficult sometimes I will admit), forgiving one another, and of course not neglecting prayer, fasting, and the reading and study of the Word.
I am aware that there are abuses. I could share some stories from my own life, however they are not encouraging to anyone else (a pastor attempted to do harm to us spiritually and to my father's ministry, but I will say no more because he was a man of God even then). I am the son of a pastor and have been my entire life as I was both born and raised in Pentecost.
I sat in the 2007 General Conference and heard what was said. I have heard what others had to say afterward about those of us that left.
God dealt with me on this topic recently, and there is not enough time for me to be concerned with what lies in the past. I have no time to be bitter, angry, or hurt. The only thing that matters is that souls are told this message. I realize that I have gone on at great length and apologize.
In closing, the Bible says that if you have anything against your brother, before you attempt to come before the throne of God, go and make peace with your brother. I would rather it roll off of me like water off a ducks back so that I do not have anything against anyone.
trialedbyfire
03-05-2012, 10:55 PM
I'm not UPC, never have been.
I have three TVs in my home.
I play sports.
I go to the movies (not much anymore because of the economy, though).
I still grow weary of the attitude many people have towards the UPC. It's absolutely ridiculous. I'm very sure emotional hurt occurs in UPC, it happens in every church, because churches have people in them, and people aren't perfect. That's not an excuse to leave the church, the doctrine, or Christ. It's also not an excuse to bash the organization, especially if you left on your own accord because you had a disagreement. Call it what it is... a disagreement and move on. You don't have to rail against the organization, they are human, just like their defectors, they can be wrong and their defectors can be wrong.
There is no UPC bashing in me. It is just a very sad situation there.
AreYouReady?
03-05-2012, 11:26 PM
And I grow weary of people accusing others of UPC bashing when they are clearly emotional over some traumatic experience in the church they loved. These people want clarity about what to do next. They want to know how to get past the hurt and move on living their life for Christ.
And yes, it is an excuse to leave the Church...but it is not an excuse to leave Christ. These are two distinctly separate situations.
Sometimes it is best to leave the church in order to cut off the root of bitterness that may develop. Bitterness will defile many and cause dissension. Best to leave.
I haven't read anybody "railing" against the organization. What I have read and what I posted myself is the experience they had, and the experience I had. If it comes across as "railing" to you, I can't help that.
The problem with your solution as to calling it a disagreement and move on is not always what happens. Many times the people from the church you left will make sure you get bashed at other churches so that they will not give you a warm welcome. It is they ...who cannot move on until they thoroughly bash the "defector".
You say that they are "human"...some of them seem to forget that they are just human also.
onefaith2
03-05-2012, 11:41 PM
For me it was never standards that were an issue, at least as far as following them and living them....it was the inconsistencies that bothered me and the inability or unwillingness of anyone to explain it.
The abuse I suffered had more to do with people's refusal to deal with issues that should have been dealt with. I guess standards were a part of that but largely it was much bigger issues than that.
It usually is.. many are more than willing to follow standards to please God and submit to leadership but its attitudes and spirits that hurt. With the right spirit even an ultra-conservative life is fun!
It usually is.. many are more than willing to follow standards to please God and submit to leadership but its attitudes and spirits that hurt. With the right spirit even an ultra-conservative life is fun!
That is the truth!! I would not ever trade the raising that I had for the anything. However, there were some people's attitudes I could have lived without. But it is a greater joy to serve my Lord than worry about them.
Michael Phelps
03-06-2012, 05:55 AM
I'm not UPC, never have been.
I have three TVs in my home.
I play sports.
I go to the movies (not much anymore because of the economy, though).
I still grow weary of the attitude many people have towards the UPC. It's absolutely ridiculous. I'm very sure emotional hurt occurs in UPC, it happens in every church, because churches have people in them, and people aren't perfect. That's not an excuse to leave the church, the doctrine, or Christ. It's also not an excuse to bash the organization, especially if you left on your own accord because you had a disagreement. Call it what it is... a disagreement and move on. You don't have to rail against the organization, they are human, just like their defectors, they can be wrong and their defectors can be wrong.
You said it in your first statement - you've never been UPC. Whether people are railing against it or not, you really don't have room to pass judgment, since you've never walked a mile in their shoes.
The theme of this thread over and over has been that most of us left because of a disagreement over standards, not because someone has done us wrong.
What we're railing against is the attitude that we left because we were rebellious, backslidden, bitter, charismatic, non-submissive, proud, worldly, etc.....we're not railing against the organization, just some of the attitudes that are prevalent within any organization.
The Lemon
03-06-2012, 08:41 AM
Wow..what a thread! I appreciate all the responses that I have read on here. I would agree with many on here as saying that Jesus really needs to stay the focal point. It also does not hurt to do some self analysis as well. We are all motivated by something, and there comes a time when you have to search your own heart and spirit for why you do or don't do something.
I can remember not long ago making a statement in prayer that I was unsure that I really wanted the Lord's direction...I said this because after contemplating my life over the last few years, I found little in the way of asking Jesus what He thought. That is just me of course, but the point is that it all begins and ends with relationship, not religion, religious rituals, traditions, or a do and don't list.
Now, don't get me wrong, I know that every assembly has a minimum standard for leadership - I know this may seem like an over simplified answer, but, if you choose not to comply, then you simply are not involved in any "position" in that assembly, at least in most cases. If it really is an issue beyond that, then you have a huge decision to pray about / make.
I have said this before in other threads...it is my strong opinion that the UPCI is not for everybody, same with WPF, or any other OP org. Everyone that "makes it", will not necessarily be in one of these organizations...it is absurd to think otherwise. We have to work out our own salvation..
Michael Phelps
03-06-2012, 08:45 AM
Wow..what a thread! I appreciate all the responses that I have read on here. I would agree with many on here as saying that Jesus really needs to stay the focal point. It also does not hurt to do some self analysis as well. We are all motivated by something, and there comes a time when you have to search your own heart and spirit for why you do or don't do something.
I can remember not long ago making a statement in prayer that I was unsure that I really wanted the Lord's direction...I said this because after contemplating my life over the last few years, I found little in the way of asking Jesus what He thought. That is just me of course, but the point is that it all begins and ends with relationship, not religion, religious rituals, traditions, or a do and don't list.
Now, don't get me wrong, I know that every assembly has a minimum standard for leadership - I know this may seem like an over simplified answer, but, if you choose not to comply, then you simply are not involved in any "position" in that assembly, at least in most cases. If it really is an issue beyond that, then you have a huge decision to pray about / make.
I have said this before in other threads...it is my strong opinion that the UPCI is not for everybody, same with WPF, or any other OP org. Everyone that "makes it", will not necessarily be in one of these organizations...it is absurd to think otherwise. We have to work out our own salvation..
Great post! :thumbsup
J4Truth
03-06-2012, 10:40 AM
I don't post much, mostly I enjoy reading the comments and seeing through others eyes.
I'm not UPC, but my church have a standard. There's a common theme I see regarding the standards issue and for the life of me I can't seem to understand why? I can speculate but I have learned that even if your right in your reasoning or assessment of a situation, if it don't sound good put into words no one seems to agree.
Question, why do it seems to be the biggest problem people have with dress standards is the reason of hypocrites? I keep seeing people mention how someone obeyed the standards but they did this wrong or that wrong. They'll mention how someone gossiped or how some man obeyed the standards but molested his daughter. Or how someone don't wear make-up but they find other ways to get around it. It seems to be the main reason people even questioned the standards. They run into some Pharisaical hypocrites and then throw the standards into the trash.
Who said, preached, taught, told anyone that the standards is some litmus test of how holy someone is? That if they are obeying the standards then they are automatically holy? If I find a man that never committed adultery and judge others because of it, then later find out he was a secret serial killer I don't all of sudden conclude that I can now start committing adultery because it.
Now I don't want to get into a yes no standards debate, because whether they're right or wrong, why do people use hypocrites as a basis? A hypocrite can do one thing right and million things wrong, the one thing he did right will never turn into something that is wrong to do because he is a hypocrite.
Now, when you use the hypocrite reasoning for when you questioned standards or went against the standards you give the impression that maybe deep in you heart you long to get out and grabbed at any excuse to allow you some freedom. Now, I'm all for searching the scriptures and getting a deeper understanding but why do so many seem to mark the imperfect man instead of marking the perfect man.
It is the same attitude we see with sinners against the whole of Christendom. They see the hypocrites in and outside the pulpit. They make jokes about different churches and denominations. Then they conclude Christianity itself is wrong because of all the people that wear the title Christian but don't actually live anything like a true Christian should.
AreYouReady?
03-06-2012, 11:34 AM
Perhaps standards is not the real problem. Perhaps it is just a symptom of the problem. You got a system that teaches standards are "holy". That standards are an outward manifestation of one's inward spiritual status. They use appearances as the fruit of the Spirit instead of what the fruits of the Spirit really are.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
(Galatians 5:22)
Perhaps when one is, in certain churches, pressured into taking up their "standards", when they see meanness and abuse come out in people who is supposedly considered to be "holy" inside because after all ... their outside reflects their inwards? Jesus had something to say about this type of practices.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
(Matthew 23:25)
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
(Matthew 23:27)
Maybe that is more the problem than the standards. Standards is an easy blame for both sides of the spectrum. Offenses come all the time. But offenses by those who represent the church causes people to re-examine what they have been taught in that church.
When people leave because of how they have been treated over the holiness standards, the pat answer is: "Oh, they did not want to live for God". or
"Oh, their attitudes are bad". They totally miss that they were a part of the problem. That they stifled and smothered people with their demands or shunnings.
Michael Phelps
03-06-2012, 12:07 PM
I don't post much, mostly I enjoy reading the comments and seeing through others eyes.
I'm not UPC, but my church have a standard. There's a common theme I see regarding the standards issue and for the life of me I can't seem to understand why? I can speculate but I have learned that even if your right in your reasoning or assessment of a situation, if it don't sound good put into words no one seems to agree.
Question, why do it seems to be the biggest problem people have with dress standards is the reason of hypocrites? I keep seeing people mention how someone obeyed the standards but they did this wrong or that wrong. They'll mention how someone gossiped or how some man obeyed the standards but molested his daughter. Or how someone don't wear make-up but they find other ways to get around it. It seems to be the main reason people even questioned the standards. They run into some Pharisaical hypocrites and then throw the standards into the trash.
Who said, preached, taught, told anyone that the standards is some litmus test of how holy someone is? That if they are obeying the standards then they are automatically holy? If I find a man that never committed adultery and judge others because of it, then later find out he was a secret serial killer I don't all of sudden conclude that I can now start committing adultery because it.
Now I don't want to get into a yes no standards debate, because whether they're right or wrong, why do people use hypocrites as a basis? A hypocrite can do one thing right and million things wrong, the one thing he did right will never turn into something that is wrong to do because he is a hypocrite.
Now, when you use the hypocrite reasoning for when you questioned standards or went against the standards you give the impression that maybe deep in you heart you long to get out and grabbed at any excuse to allow you some freedom. Now, I'm all for searching the scriptures and getting a deeper understanding but why do so many seem to mark the imperfect man instead of marking the perfect man.
It is the same attitude we see with sinners against the whole of Christendom. They see the hypocrites in and outside the pulpit. They make jokes about different churches and denominations. Then they conclude Christianity itself is wrong because of all the people that wear the title Christian but don't actually live anything like a true Christian should.
I guess I missed some posts or something, because I haven't seen anyone on this thread using hypocrites as a reason for leaving standards.......or, are you just making the point about certain ones who do?
I do agree with your reasoning, it's a very poor excuse to use if you're leaving....there are hypocrites everywhere, and if we used that excuse in other areas of our lives, we'd stop going to work, stop playing golf, stop doing pretty much everything we do, because someone, somewhere who is doing those things is being a hypocrite about something at this very moment.
However, I don't see that as being the theme of this thread...........
My question is, if you do leave because of standards where do you go to hear the right doctrine? It seems to me that there is compromise no matter where you go.
Michael Phelps
03-06-2012, 12:22 PM
My question is, if you do leave because of standards where do you go to hear the right doctrine? It seems to me that there is compromise no matter where you go.
That raises a good question, Rose.........I guess my question in return is "What do you consider doctrine?"
If it's repentance, baptism in Jesus' name, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost as all being necessary for salvation, there are hundreds of churches around teh country that preach that, but do not hold to the traditional standards.
If you consider the standards part of the "doctrine" then you definitely have a dilemma.....
AreYouReady?
03-06-2012, 12:30 PM
I left because I could never measure up to some of the standards. The standards "bar" kept getting raised as I attained the requirement for the "measurement" bar. There was always something that I was not attaining. I let my hair grow, quit wearing pants, no makeup or jewelry, no.... whatever what the standard of the day was. Whispers about what somebody else was doing was the norm, all the while those who whisper did not keep their own house in order. Standards became bigger than what Christ did for us. Bigger than His shed blood. Bigger than the love we were to have towards one another. People's attitudes about those standards that were being imposed were a stumbling block.
Nothing should take precedence over what Christ did for us on the cross.
Nothing should take precedence over the love we are to have towards one another. That is how the world sees that we are disciples of Christ. That is what Christ said this is how they will know the church.
So...maybe standards were not the real reason, just the symptom. Maybe it was the people who kept raising the bar, the ones who are without love...the ones who meddled in everybody else's life without sweeping their own life clean while disguising themselves under the pentecostal look?
People have the misnomer that leaving a church building means leaving Christ.
Sometimes we have to leave a certain assembly in order to revive our walk in Christ.
AreYouReady?
03-06-2012, 12:34 PM
Ever notice that when a person finds Christ, they are exuberant, excited, exhilarated? They raise bubbles in the baptismal because they are dancing in the water.
Then the peer pressure starts....
Some people stay in that place and become bitter without confessing their bitterness. They know what will be said about them.
Other's leave while confessing their bitterness and endure the things said about them. These people are considered backslid no matter what kind of prayers to God are in their life at home.
That raises a good question, Rose.........I guess my question in return is "What do you consider doctrine?"
If it's repentance, baptism in Jesus' name, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost as all being necessary for salvation, there are hundreds of churches around teh country that preach that, but do not hold to the traditional standards.
If you consider the standards part of the "doctrine" then you definitely have a dilemma.....
The doctrine of JESUS CHRIST and the apostles is a priority with me. So, I remain content in a church that does preach and teach sound doctrine. This is my compromise.
I have yet to find one of those 'hundreds of churches' that you mentioned.
Michael Phelps
03-06-2012, 12:53 PM
The doctrine of JESUS CHRIST and the apostles is a priority with me. So, I remain content in a church that does preach and teach sound doctrine. This is my compromise.
I have yet to find one of those 'hundreds of churches' that you mentioned.
So, you really didn't answer my question........so, I'll ask it this way:
If you could find a church that preached Acts 2:38, but didn't preach standards, would you feel that was a church that preached "doctrine"?
So, you really didn't answer my question........so, I'll ask it this way:
If you could find a church that preached Acts 2:38, but didn't preach standards, would you feel that was a church that preached "doctrine"?
Yes, I believe that is a part of the doctrine but there is so much more.
J4Truth
03-06-2012, 01:04 PM
I guess I missed some posts or something, because I haven't seen anyone on this thread using hypocrites as a reason for leaving standards.......or, are you just making the point about certain ones who do?
I do agree with your reasoning, it's a very poor excuse to use if you're leaving....there are hypocrites everywhere, and if we used that excuse in other areas of our lives, we'd stop going to work, stop playing golf, stop doing pretty much everything we do, because someone, somewhere who is doing those things is being a hypocrite about something at this very moment.
However, I don't see that as being the theme of this thread...........
It may not be the official theme of this particular thread but are we not talking about how those that hold to the "standards" mistreat and abuse others because they don't hold to the same? And unless you feel that the attitude that they have is justified and could, and should be used against someone that is lacking in any other area? Essentially I'm asking are you saying that how they treat others that don't hold to the same standards is acceptable attitude to have as a christian and the only thing wrong with there behavior is that they have such an attitude over standards?
Michael Phelps
03-06-2012, 01:15 PM
Yes, I believe that is a part of the doctrine but there is so much more.
Can you define the "more"?
Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to gain an understanding of what you feel is doctrinal, and what is optional.
Praxeas
03-06-2012, 01:17 PM
Ever notice that when a person finds Christ, they are exuberant, excited, exhilarated? They raise bubbles in the baptismal because they are dancing in the water.
Then the peer pressure starts....
Some people stay in that place and become bitter without confessing their bitterness. They know what will be said about them.
Other's leave while confessing their bitterness and endure the things said about them. These people are considered backslid no matter what kind of prayers to God are in their life at home.
No...I never noticed that.
For every "I left the UPC because"...there are a dozen more "I stayed in the UPC because" or "I joined the UPC because"...
I have found there are many UPCs, apparently, where this stuff happens. I found there are many other UPCs, apparently, where this stuff does not happen.
For me, it's not a UPC issues, unless you left over organizational politics on a national level or you just disagree with UPC doctrines. For me it's a church to church/Pastor to pastor issue
Michael Phelps
03-06-2012, 01:20 PM
It may not be the official theme of this particular thread but are we not talking about how those that hold to the "standards" mistreat and abuse others because they don't hold to the same? And unless you feel that the attitude that they have is justified and could, and should be used against someone that is lacking in any other area? Essentially I'm asking are you saying that how they treat others that don't hold to the same standards is acceptable attitude to have as a christian and the only thing wrong with there behavior is that they have such an attitude over standards?
I'm not sure I understand your question, but let me try and answer, and let me know if I didn't answer it satisfactorily......
There are two things that become wrong when we're dealing with the attitudes of those on both sides of the standards fence.
The attitude of those who DO hold to a standard and criticize and condemn those who don't hold that standard and identify them as backsliders, heretics, reprobates, et al - 100% wrong.
The attitude of those who do NOT hold a standard, and criticize those who do hold the standard, and classify them as hypocrites, self-righteous Pharisees, held in bondage, etc - 100% wrong.
If you feel in your heart that God is directing you to follow certain standards, then do it! But, don't criticize those who don't.......if you feel that you are free from those things, then enjoy your freedom! But, don't criticize those who still maintain those things......
This thread was about someone leaving the UPC. Yes, a portion of the thread turned into the way they and others have been treated by those who stayed, and the behavior mentioned is wrong, in my opinion. If the thread was about the other side of the coin, my premise would be the same.
hometown guy
03-06-2012, 01:22 PM
No...I never noticed that.
For every "I left the UPC because"...there are a dozen more "I stayed in the UPC because" or "I joined the UPC because"...
I have found there are many UPCs, apparently, where this stuff happens. I found there are many other UPCs, apparently, where this stuff does not happen.
For me, it's not a UPC issues, unless you left over organizational politics on a national level or you just disagree with UPC doctrines. For me it's a church to church/Pastor to pastor issue
I agree 100%
AreYouReady?
03-06-2012, 01:37 PM
Praxeas,
You are correct. I should not lump all UPCs in the entire world in there. This is not my overall intention. I know that there are UPCs out there who are not harsh on people who do not adhere to holiness standards. They are just not in my area.
My entire world at this time exists in this one backward area. For me it's a church to church/Pastor to pastor issue would better explain what happened to me.
Those who attend a church that does not strictly uphold holiness standards would have a hard time understanding my position.
Praxeas
03-06-2012, 01:41 PM
Praxeas,
You are correct. I should not lump all UPCs in the entire world in there. This is not my overall intention. I know that there are UPCs out there who are not harsh on people who do not adhere to holiness standards. They are just not in my area.
My entire world at this time exists in this one backward area. For me it's a church to church/Pastor to pastor issue would better explain what happened to me.
Well let me say there are UPCs out there that still have the standards without the attitudes. Those attitudes are not related to standards. Standards are just a tool they use. If it was not standards it would be something else.
The church I attend is considered moderate, though some rather call us liberals. Standards are not something constantly harped on and pounded into the people.
In fact I've rarely heard them mentioned in teaching for such a long time, I can't remember the last time I have. But we still have women that don't cut their hair etc etc etc
AreYouReady?
03-06-2012, 01:55 PM
Well let me say there are UPCs out there that still have the standards without the attitudes. Those attitudes are not related to standards. Standards are just a tool they use. If it was not standards it would be something else.
Yes. Agreed. The acceptance bar is raised to something else.
The church I attend is considered moderate, though some rather call us liberals. Standards are not something constantly harped on and pounded into the people.
In fact I've rarely heard them mentioned in teaching for such a long time, I can't remember the last time I have. But we still have women that don't cut their hair etc etc etc
I'll have to take something back. There is one UPC church here that have somewhat let go of the standards, but only because the pastor's daughters have cut their hair and started wearing makeup. It was wrong until they did it. ;)
I'm glad you attend a moderate church. I'm sure that there are places in the larger cities with more moderate churches. I wish that I did not have to travel for 1-2 hours to attend such a church. With the rising gas prices, it would be very hard to travel like this every week.
Michael Phelps
03-06-2012, 01:59 PM
Standards are just what the word implies, on a couple of different levels:
1. something considered by an authority or by general consent as a basis of comparison; an approved model.
2. an object that is regarded as the usual or most common size or form of its kind: We stock the deluxe models as well as the standards.
3. a rule or principle that is used as a basis for judgment: They tried to establish standards for a new philosophical approach.
4. an average or normal requirement, quality, quantity, level, grade, etc.: His work this week hasn't been up to his usual standard.
5. standards, those morals, ethics, habits, etc., established by authority, custom, or an individual as acceptable: He tried to live up to his father's standards.
Standards were established, purportedly, on Biblical guidelines to help people live "holy". This is definition #5.
However, they have migrated in many places more to a yardstick to measure someone's "holiness" by, thus definition #3.
Here's the deal, in my humble opionion - if you are fulfilling certain standards because your parents, elders, etc. handed them down to you, I'm ok with that. As long as you understand that they are traditions, and you're doing your best to further the tradition.
If you are living a life that reflects certain standards because God dealt with you personally on those things, I respect that, and no one can argue that point with you.
But, if you are living by a certain standard because you think it makes you "holier" than those who don't, and you are using your standards and the lack thereof on the part of others as a yardstick of their sin and your holiness - then we have an issue.
Praxeas
03-06-2012, 02:00 PM
Yes. Agreed. The acceptance bar is raised to something else.
I'll have to take something back. There is one UPC church here that have somewhat let go of the standards, but only because the pastor's daughters have cut their hair and started wearing makeup. It was wrong until they did it. ;)
I'm glad you attend a moderate church. I'm sure that there are places in the larger cities with more moderate churches. I wish that I did not have to travel for 1-2 hours to attend such a church. With the rising gas prices, it would be very hard to travel like this every week.
So Cal district is probably mostly moderate UPCs
Amanah
03-06-2012, 02:00 PM
AYR, why dont you watch Sunday AM services here until you find a church
http://www.fpcpalmbay.com/new/LiveWebcast.html
AreYouReady?
03-06-2012, 02:02 PM
:thumbsup...Phelps, you do have a way with words.
Praxeas
03-06-2012, 02:02 PM
Personally I think it's silly to call them Holiness Standards
For starters that term is not in the bible and it's a double standard to come from a group that partially rejects the trinity for using non-biblical language
Holiness is a condition of the heart and should MOSTLY be outwardly displayed by how we act and treat others
Amanah
03-06-2012, 02:03 PM
So Cal district is probably mostly moderate UPCs
Southeast used to be UC heaven, it's becoming much more moderate/liberal now.
RandyWayne
03-06-2012, 02:08 PM
I left, or rather didn't go back for a number of reasons.
Was I wronged? Well, yes but not as an adult since I was a teen living with my parents the entire time we attended. As a kid though? Most definitely but in the same manner that some ex-Catholics may say that a few of the nuns at Catholic school were mean and nasty to them. The BIG thing was how I was effectively raised by the pastor. My own folks were so whipped by him that whatever HE said was the defacto rule in our house. It was very uncomfortable and one of the reason that the film, Invasion of the Body Snatchers holds a special terror for me. It felt like my folks were brain dead zombies under the control of a Svengali leader who used both persuasion and fear to rule them all.
Besides that I also didn't agree with the standards. The very first "awakening" for me was during the first few months in the church when I heard someone sing the UPC birthday song. Even at 12 I thought, "OK, this is taking separation a bit too far. What was wrong with the original??". And then came some winter outdoor activities where the girls/women wore jean skirts over their snow pants or snowmobile suits. At my young age I knew (or thought I knew) what the principle of the dress code was, but apparently everyone else was more interested in following the letter of the law -and looking just ridicules in the process.
Another big nail occurred during the showing of A Thief in the Night. After the film I heard our pastor talking about the movie and saying "They show a man wearing SHORTS going in the rapture!". THIS was one of the big, if not the biggest eureka moments for me. I realized fully how the standards were nothing but a checklist for salvation and treated no differently than the "three step plan". In fact I started looking at the "three step plan" the same was I looked at standards since I really didn't see a difference in how they were viewed or followed.
AreYouReady?
03-06-2012, 02:09 PM
AYR, why dont you watch Sunday AM services here until you find a church
http://www.fpcpalmbay.com/new/LiveWebcast.html
I bookmarked this website. Thank You Amanah.
AreYouReady?
03-06-2012, 02:10 PM
personally i think it's silly to call them holiness standards
for starters that term is not in the bible and it's a double standard to come from a group that partially rejects the trinity for using non-biblical language
holiness is a condition of the heart and should mostly be outwardly displayed by how we act and treat others
bingo!
Pressing-On
03-06-2012, 02:40 PM
Personally I think it's silly to call them Holiness Standards
For starters that term is not in the bible and it's a double standard to come from a group that partially rejects the trinity for using non-biblical language
Holiness is a condition of the heart and should MOSTLY be outwardly displayed by how we act and treat others
I agree and "standards" as opposed to "modesty" is when you start measuring the cuff or skirt lengths. That's when standards can turn ugly.
RandyWayne
03-06-2012, 02:49 PM
I agree and "standards" as opposed to "modesty" is when you start measuring the cuff or skirt lengths. That's when standards can turn ugly.
Ya, it really is simple. If the only rule was "Don't show anything you don't want anyone of the opposite sex looking at." was applied it would solve virtually every issue. Most ladies could show their <gasp!> elbows because I don't know any who CARE if a guy looks at them. It also allows for single ladies to just maybe show a little more in the process of trying to catch a guys attention they are interested in.... :)
Pressing-On
03-06-2012, 03:11 PM
Ya, it really is simple. If the only rule was "Don't show anything you don't want anyone of the opposite sex looking at." was applied it would solve virtually every issue. Most ladies could show their <gasp!> elbows because I don't know any who CARE if a guy looks at them. It also allows for single ladies to just maybe show a little more in the process of trying to catch a guys attention they are interested in.... :)
Okay, I have no comment here. :heeheehee
Yea, talk about the elbow and everyone is looking at them. I remember a thread that talked about men on the platform and showing/exposing their, ummmm, and I thought to myself, "Oh great, now I will be checking that out. But, I never did or have." LOL
Can you define the "more"?
Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to gain an understanding of what you feel is doctrinal, and what is optional.
The New Testament doctrine... what Jesus taught the apostles, what the apostles did in Acts and the letters they wrote to the newly established churches of that era, the gospel, the beatitudes, spiritual growth, fruit of the Spirit, all of it!
Optional? I am not sure what you mean.
AreYouReady?
03-06-2012, 03:40 PM
Ya, it really is simple. If the only rule was "Don't show anything you don't want anyone of the opposite sex looking at." was applied it would solve virtually every issue. Most ladies could show their <gasp!> elbows because I don't know any who CARE if a guy looks at them. It also allows for single ladies to just maybe show a little more in the process of trying to catch a guys attention they are interested in.... :)
I got some cute little wrinkles embedded in my elbows.
Not sure I would want a member of the opposite sex looking at them though.
That would be creepy. :heeheehee
Pressing-On
03-06-2012, 03:47 PM
I got some cute little wrinkles embedded in my elbows.
Not sure I would want a member of the opposite sex looking at them though.
That would be creepy. :heeheehee
When they are crouching and walking close, look out! :heeheehee
NorCal
03-06-2012, 03:58 PM
The very first "awakening" for me was during the first few months in the church when I heard someone sing the UPC birthday song. Even at 12 I thought, "OK, this is taking separation a bit too far. What was wrong with the original??".
Other than the fact that the song is still under copy write protection and royalties must be paid when sang.
http://www.snopes.com/music/songs/birthday.asp
AreYouReady?
03-06-2012, 04:47 PM
When they are crouching and walking close, look out! :heeheehee
:ursofunny
Thanks for the tip!
RandyWayne
03-06-2012, 05:15 PM
Other than the fact that the song is still under copy write protection and royalties must be paid when sang.
http://www.snopes.com/music/songs/birthday.asp
I did not know this.
An interesting thing about copyright law. Over the past 70-75 years it has been extended every time..... <ding ding ding> Mickey Mouse (name and likeness, along with other Disney characters created at the same time) was due to enter the public domain!
Cindy
03-06-2012, 05:17 PM
I am surprised at the hold this organization seems to have on it's ex members. But, I guess it's like going through the stages of grief.
AreYouReady?
03-06-2012, 06:59 PM
You right Cindy. But I cannot blame God for what some people have done in His church. Apostolics for the most part are the best people on the planet. I am praying some day for a Jesus Name church to start up in my area without all the nit picky standards imposition.
RandyWayne
03-06-2012, 09:28 PM
You right Cindy. But I cannot blame God for what some people have done in His church. Apostolics for the most part are the best people on the planet. I am praying some day for a Jesus Name church to start up in my area without all the nit picky standards imposition.
I would disagree profoundly with that statement.
I would much rather live in a town or community of Christians than 'apostolics'.
AreYouReady?
03-06-2012, 10:49 PM
I don't consider spiritual bullies, spiritual nitpickers, beady-eyed fault finders to be "apostolic".
I've known many apostolics to be kind and gentle and loving. I don't have a problem with a community of Christians either. I would never again entangle myself with a church system that forbid the fellowshipping with other people from other denominations as what happened when I was a member of the UPCI in my region.
kevinsmith
03-07-2012, 12:43 PM
Not sure where to post this and what to say! Can anyone help me thru this, I tried to search other threads of people going thru this, please leave links if I missed some. Was in UPCI 10 yrs and always felt funny about the "holiness stds" and how strict somethings were. and felt I became so judgemental of others. I felt my other non UPCI friends were more christian like than we were. Alot of things bothered me but yet in UPCI the worship and presence of God and the life changing experiences at the altar are hard to find in other churches. My husband and I haven't been to church for over a yr. I just don't know how to explain how I feel. I am so turned off by church itself now. I have so many mixed feelings inside. I am trying to heal and not have a wall up with God either. and He seems so quiet thru all of this I know He doesn't leave us but I wish He would give my husband and I more guidance and answers... and healing... any advice? does it just take time? can you share what you have been thru if you have gone thru something like this? thank you....
Maybe the closer feeling of God is from the extra sacrifices being made; i.e."standards". Just my own personal thought, but if living loose and not feeling that closeness to our God, than I'll do whatever it takes to feel His spirit. This world isn't home, I'm just passing thru.
AreYouReady?
03-07-2012, 09:21 PM
Adhering to standards for the sake of appearances gets nobody close to God. Heartfelt prayer and fasting until you hear from God is what brings you closer.
kevinsmith
03-08-2012, 06:59 AM
Adhering to standards for the sake of appearances gets nobody close to God. Heartfelt prayer and fasting until you hear from God is what brings you closer.
Right! Prayer and fasting, and reading His word- and doing what it says....living it.
Michael Phelps
03-08-2012, 07:52 AM
Right! Prayer and fasting, and reading His word- and doing what it says....living it.
That's where the lines start to blur.......everyone has a different interpretation of what it says.
AreYouReady?
03-08-2012, 09:54 AM
Right! Prayer and fasting, and reading His word- and doing what it says....living it.
That's where the lines start to blur.......everyone has a different interpretation of what it says.
Which would be why...
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Phillipians 2:12
Jack Shephard
03-09-2012, 07:18 AM
This seems to be a common thread among some that have left "the ark". I know the feeling a bit too. There really should be some sort of support group or some support fellowship network for those that have gone through or going through something like this.
NorCal
03-09-2012, 02:30 PM
The question I have is "Are you feeling guilty?" or are "People making you feel guilty?"
There is a huge difference.
Amanah
03-09-2012, 02:49 PM
The question I have is "Are you feeling guilty?" or are "People making you feel guilty?"
There is a huge difference.
I think when people are going thru a transition and reevaluating what they had been taught, it takes awhile to answer that question.
You can begin to believe something is not correct, but after years of hearing it preached and taught, it takes a long time to transition into being comfortable with a new belief. It does not happen over night, but takes much soul searching and consideration.
NorCal
03-09-2012, 03:13 PM
I think when people are going thru a transition and reevaluating what they had been taught, it takes awhile to answer that question.
You can begin to believe something is not correct, but after years of hearing it preached and taught, it takes a long time to transition into being comfortable with a new belief. It does not happen over night, but takes much soul searching and consideration.
I totally understand. At a certain time in my life, I did the same thing. You question everything that you have been taught. The problem that I have, is most people do it out of rebellion, and not after a true searching of the scripture. The act and try to justify their actions by their own knowledge.
But also, you have to ask yourself "What is my pastor to me?" For me, my answer was simple. He is a fleshly moral beacon for me to follow while I am here on earth. "Follow me as I follow Christ". As long as he is living his life by the whole word of God, I will be safe in following him.
Amanah
03-09-2012, 03:18 PM
But also, you have to ask yourself "What is my pastor to me?" For me, my answer was simple. He is a fleshly moral beacon for me to follow while I am here on earth. "Follow me as I follow Christ". As long as he is living his life by the whole word of God, I will be safe in following him.
Amen.
Godsdrummer
03-10-2012, 08:26 AM
I totally understand. At a certain time in my life, I did the same thing. You question everything that you have been taught. The problem that I have, is most people do it out of rebellion, and not after a true searching of the scripture. The act and try to justify their actions by their own knowledge.
But also, you have to ask yourself "What is my pastor to me?" For me, my answer was simple. He is a fleshly moral beacon for me to follow while I am here on earth. "Follow me as I follow Christ". As long as he is living his life by the whole word of God, I will be safe in following him.
I must ask how do you know he is living his life by the whole word of God? Do you just accept what he says is the word of God or do you know by your own study. Asking the hard questions about what he teaches. If what he teaches does not ring true do you question or just accept that he is the pastor and would not lead you astray?
Amana
I must ask you by what do you say many or most questions out of rebelion, do you know their heart?
Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
This word "obey" means to be pursuaded. If you are not pursuaded how can you be in rebelion? We cannot be in rebelion to a man, we can only be in rebelion to God, and that is not through a man.
Paul said follow me as I follow Christ, how do you know if you pastor is following Christ is you don't "study to show yourself approve" "seeking out your own salvation with fear and tembling".
Amanah
03-10-2012, 10:15 AM
I said amen to the part I quoted.
bbyrd009
03-10-2012, 12:12 PM
I see this as a reflection of a human desire for an earthly king, and the human proclivity to fill a perceived vacuum (where there is none).
Although I am interested in any message that contains Life.
Godsdrummer
03-11-2012, 10:32 AM
I see this as a reflection of a human desire for an earthly king, and the human proclivity to fill a perceived vacuum (where there is none).
Although I am interested in any message that contains Life.
Well said, and true, just as in the days when Isreal demanded a king, was not because they rejected Samual, as no prophet was ever any more than a spokesman of judjment comming never as a instructer or teacher. The people already new the plain commands of God and were instructed to teach them to their children. It was only when they had neglected this and began to sin that God sent a prophet. The people did not want to be responsible to God instead they thought that by demanding a king like the other nations around them God would not require as much from them. just my thoughts
AreYouReady?
03-11-2012, 11:47 AM
The question I have is "Are you feeling guilty?" or are "People making you feel guilty?"
There is a huge difference.
I left the Catholic Church in my quest for God. People can and do equate an organized religion system with being God. My own sister has as much said so to my face.
So...that being said, people will play on words to bring one under subjection... sometimes to the pastor or sometimes to peer pressure. Because of this, many times people will feel guilty over something where no guilt should be felt.
This is why it is so important that people actually read what is in the Bible for themselves and pray about what they read. The Holy Spirit is within us to lead us and guide us. The Pastor does not take the place of the Holy Spirit. He is there to minister the Word.
Godsdrummer
03-13-2012, 06:16 AM
I left the Catholic Church in my quest for God. People can and do equate an organized religion system with being God. My own sister has as much said so to my face.
So...that being said, people will play on words to bring one under subjection... sometimes to the pastor or sometimes to peer pressure. Because of this, many times people will feel guilty over something where no guilt should be felt.
This is why it is so important that people actually read what is in the Bible for themselves and pray about what they read. The Holy Spirit is within us to lead us and guide us. The Pastor does not take the place of the Holy Spirit. He is there to minister the Word.
Areyou ready
Good words, I take it one step farther than you do, the Pastor is there to MINISTER.
I was very, very angry for a long time after leaving. I still get angry sometimes, but the isolation can get to me.....meaning, people don't understand what I've been through. I feel like a stranger sometimes. However, as more time goes by, I am getting more and more comfortable in my own skin whether people understand or not.
weloveour3sons
03-15-2012, 11:36 AM
The true standard is the standard of the heart that God looks upon, not what we look like. When I was growing up some found it was more important to "look the part" than to show the love of Christ. In fact, if someone looked a little too "worldly" the person would become the subject of nasty jealousy, back-biting, and ugliness. I have many wonderful UPC friends, and my parents are still UPC, so I'm not bashing the organization. I take issue with silly rules and double standards. In the words of Jesus, John 13:35 "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." Notice it doesn't say "if ye wear a blue jean skirt with tennis shoes" or "if ye don't trim your hair" or "if ye hath on no makeup or jewelry"...NO, it says "if ye have LOVE one to another." That's how the world knows we are HIS disciples. And if you want to use the 1 Peter 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;--then you should not plait (or fix fancy) your hair, and you should go around naked, or at the least wear extremely cheap clothing. So obviously, this is not what this scripture means. This scripture is regarding PRIDE. IT DOESN'T say not to do those things--it says not to let those things been your ADORNMENT (who you are or what you are about). NEXT SCRIPTURE: 1 Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. -- "The hidden man of the heart" is what God cares about. Some take so much pride and are wrapped up in looking Apostolic (The Blue Jean Skirt Girl song is ridiculous) that they forget the true love of Christ. And that's what took me the longest time to get over. Now my life is not a list of "don'ts and can'ts" --it is a list of what I CAN do to show God's love to others, live a full and happy life, and love with the true love of Christ. God bless each of you and know that even though I don't look like you God still blesses my music ministry and my life. May God grant you his love and peace. Blessings, Becky
Cindy
03-15-2012, 11:38 AM
The true standard is the standard of the heart that God looks upon, not what we look like. When I was growing up some found it was more important to "look the part" than to show the love of Christ. In fact, if someone looked a little too "worldly" the person would become the subject of nasty jealousy, back-biting, and ugliness. I have many wonderful UPC friends, and my parents are still UPC, so I'm not bashing the organization. I take issue with silly rules and double standards. In the words of Jesus, John 13:35 "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another." Notice it doesn't say "if ye wear a blue jean skirt with tennis shoes" or "if ye don't trim your hair" or "if ye hath on no makeup or jewelry"...NO, it says "if ye have LOVE one to another." That's how the world knows we are HIS disciples. And if you want to use the 1 Peter 3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;--then you should not plait (or fix fancy) your hair, and you should go around naked, or at the least wear extremely cheap clothing. So obviously, this is not what this scripture means. This scripture is regarding PRIDE. IT DOESN'T say not to do those things--it says not to let those things been your ADORNMENT (who you are or what you are about). NEXT SCRIPTURE: 1 Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. -- "The hidden man of the heart" is what God cares about. Some take so much pride and are wrapped up in looking Apostolic (The Blue Jean Skirt Girl song is ridiculous) that they forget the true love of Christ. And that's what took me the longest time to get over. Now my life is not a list of "don'ts and can'ts" --it is a list of what I CAN do to show God's love to others, live a full and happy life, and love with the true love of Christ. God bless each of you and know that even though I don't look like you God still blesses my music ministry and my life. May God grant you his love and peace. Blessings, Becky
:yourock
weloveour3sons
03-15-2012, 12:01 PM
I was very, very angry for a long time after leaving. I still get angry sometimes, but the isolation can get to me.....meaning, people don't understand what I've been through. I feel like a stranger sometimes. However, as more time goes by, I am getting more and more comfortable in my own skin whether people understand or not.
In reality there are people in the UPC churches who disagree with the "standards" but stay because they have grown up UPC and don't want to be "excommunicated". Many of these people deep inside know how you feel and wish they could reach out to you without the repercussions they may encounter from others within "the church". I'm sorry you are going through this-- I really am. I went through it as well many years ago. I can tell who the true Christians really were, however, as I have reconnected with them and they do not judge me or consider me "a sinner". They realize that I still am filled with the Holy Ghost and cannot argue with the Spirit God has placed inside of me. Give it some time and then try to connect with those you feel will not judge you and who you really feel were true friends. There really are some wonderful, caring people in the UPC. My parents and many of their friends (and mine) are some of those people. Hugs and Blessings to you!
J4Truth
03-16-2012, 12:26 AM
I have a question, what is the true contentions of the standards? Is it the rules or standards themselves or the attitude of some of the ones holding to said rules and standards?
My basic understanding of the standards is this, simple guidelines to modesty and avoidance of unnecessary things that is riddled with pride.
berkeley
03-16-2012, 02:49 AM
I have a question, what is the true contentions of the standards? Is it the rules or standards themselves or the attitude of some of the ones holding to said rules and standards?
My basic understanding of the standards is this, simple guidelines to modesty and avoidance of unnecessary things that is riddled with pride.
yokes and bondage that is not required
Amanah
03-16-2012, 04:03 AM
I have a question, what is the true contentions of the standards? Is it the rules or standards themselves or the attitude of some of the ones holding to said rules and standards?
My basic understanding of the standards is this, simple guidelines to modesty and avoidance of unnecessary things that is riddled with pride.
Some of it is extra biblical, subject to interpretation, treated as a heaven/hell issue, sometimes expressed with an exclusive/elite/judgmental attitude towards anyone who doesn't absolutely measure up . . .
But when it's over and done, it's time to move on, get over it, put it behind us, not lettinig the mistakes of some who were just trying to preserve religion the way it was taught to them trip us. It's like parenting, some of what you learned from your parents was good, some was off base. But you know they were trying to protect you because they cared. You take what is good, right, scriptural and continue on with it. You leave what was tradition, unprofitable, not sensible behind. You move on and continue your walk with God.
We have this treasure in earthern vessels, the content of the vessel is pure, perfect and desirable, the vessels are flawed humanity, subject to error.
But when we trip and fall, are hurt and confused, this is when the enemy of our souls comes in to tell us to throw everything away. This is when we are in a dangerous place, but we pray and read our bible and forgive and find our path forward with the help of God.
Hoovie
03-16-2012, 08:04 AM
I don't have any problem with standards when taught with balance and avoidance of a legalistic approach.
I went to a non denominational prayer meeting the other night, and realized I take MUCH greater issue with the "It's God's will you be healthy" teaching than any standard I have heard preached.
RandyWayne
03-16-2012, 08:40 AM
Some of it is extra biblical, subject to interpretation, treated as a heaven/hell issue, sometimes expressed with an exclusive/elite/judgmental attitude towards anyone who doesn't absolutely measure up . . .
But when it's over and done, it's time to move on, get over it, put it behind us, not lettinig the mistakes of some who were just trying to preserve religion the way it was taught to them trip us. It's like parenting, some of what you learned from your parents was good, some was off base. But you know they were trying to protect you because they cared. You take what is good, right, scriptural and continue on with it. You leave what was tradition, unprofitable, not sensible behind. You move on and continue your walk with God.
We have this treasure in earthern vessels, the content of the vessel is pure, perfect and desirable, the vessels are flawed humanity, subject to error.
But when we trip and fall, are hurt and confused, this is when the enemy of our souls comes in to tell us to throw everything away. This is when we are in a dangerous place, but we pray and read our bible and forgive and find our path forward with the help of God.
You see, part of the problem is that I am not too sure about the bolded part. I am convinced that many who "abuse" are far more concerned (whether they admit it, even to themselves, or not) about their own little kingdom then about those they lord over.
And I don't have any deep seated emotional pain from any of the standards themselves I was forced to follow -I never had a desire to wear a dress or grow my hair long or on my face (which I was too young to do anyways at the time). I guess the pain, if you want to call it that, that I still feel is the fact that I WAS "forced" to follow them. My parents were like the pod people from Invasion of the Body Snatchers who raised me in their early religious zeal to the exact wishes and specifications of the pastor.
OK, I misspoke early. There was ONE standard that I absolutely detested and has shaped my thoughts and actions to this very day. The standard implemented that one shall attend each and every church service no matter how many there are or how long they last.
Amanah
03-16-2012, 08:54 AM
maybe I should say in my case I think the people in authority cared, still do care about me.
But you are right, they way we obeyed them was . . . I don't know how to say it I have such mixed feeling about it.
I still think that our passion and zeal for God brought along with it a deep move of God. I don't know how to untangle the single minded devotion to God that I felt back then from the results of that devotion: Many souls coming into the kingdom, being baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost.
I'm still confused about how you get the results we got, without doing things they way we did them.
I'm read these boards and people talk about the grace of God, and how it's ok to do many of the things that we were taught not to do.
If you drink and smoke and immerse yourself in movies and entertainment, and neglect prayer, bible, fasting, church, and devotion to God, can you still have the same results?
does grace mean abandoning all holiness standards, and spiritual disciplines, and church attendance?
Sometimes I feel like there are too many gray areas, and not enough clarity. Sometimes I read this board and leave with a heavy heart because I fear we are leaving something precious behind but if I try to define it, it's going to be lost in the words that I use.
KeptByTheWord
03-16-2012, 09:29 AM
maybe I should say in my case I think the people in authority cared, still do care about me.
But you are right, they way we obeyed them was . . . I don't know how to say it I have such mixed feeling about it.
I still think that our passion and zeal for God brought along with it a deep move of God. I don't know how to untangle the single minded devotion to God that I felt back then from the results of that devotion: Many souls coming into the kingdom, being baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost.
I'm still confused about how you get the results we got, without doing things they way we did them.
I'm read these boards and people talk about the grace of God, and how it's ok to do many of the things that we were taught not to do.
If you drink and smoke and immerse yourself in movies and entertainment, and neglect prayer, bible, fasting, church, and devotion to God, can you still have the same results?
does grace mean abandoning all holiness standards, and spiritual disciplines, and church attendance?
Sometimes I feel like there are too many gray areas, and not enough clarity. Sometimes I read this board and leave with a heavy heart because I fear we are leaving something precious behind but if I try to define it, it's going to be lost in the words that I use.
Yes, so true Amanah! Your words as always are real and speak from your heart.
I have tangled in my own heart with these very same issues. It seems that the mighty moves of God that we seen at the turn of the century are now being replaced with imitations of the real thing... because there is not a true hunger for Jesus anymore, just a need for blessings, and miracles and such...
There are many people I know who will never pray themselves, read their Bible, or anything, but guaranteed, if things go wrong in their life, who do they want to pray for them and beg God to heal, bless, and help them when they're in need, but someone who has been in the throne room of God.
You see, people today really don't want any sacrifice on their part but they want the blessings.
There is sacrifice involved, and there is a need for our fleshly lusts and desires to be crucified, if we really want God's spirit to have free reign in our lives. Why is fasting such a blessing when you do it? It is because you are able to get your flesh out of the way, and just allow the spirit of Jesus to move in your life, and without sacrifice, I see no gain.
All this easy grace, easy believism, prosperity doctrine, no sickness, no worries no pain... all that is a LIE from Satan himself!
Where does the above fit in with taking up your cross and following Jesus? Thinking we are to experience, no pain, no suffering, no problems, no worries just because we are a Christian is a LIE from Satan himself.
I believe we will see miracles, signs, and wonders again when the we fall to our knees and fall in love with the Christ who died on Calvary, who suffered for us, and realizing that suffering is a part of being a Christian. Not one of the apostles ever said it wasn't a part of following Christ. Where have we gotten the idea that we should have no pain, sickness, temptations, trials, and tribulations???
From Satan himself... because he knows that if the church is as Laodicea was, in need of nothing... he is winning, and the church is no longer the church.
Amanah.... so true in what you said, that there is something that the American church has lost along the way.... but Jesus is alive and well, and his church is alive and vibrant too. Your spirit attests to this and others here on this board too.... The true church has never been the majority, but always the minority...
I don't have any problem with standards when taught with balance and avoidance of a legalistic approach.
I went to a non denominational prayer meeting the other night, and realized I take MUCH greater issue with the "It's God's will you be healthy" teaching than any standard I have heard preached.
Apples and oranges.
The personal belief that is more feminine for women to wear dresses=Health is a blessing from God.
You will go to hell if you wear pants=You don't have faith if you are not healed.
In reality there are people in the UPC churches who disagree with the "standards" but stay because they have grown up UPC and don't want to be "excommunicated". Many of these people deep inside know how you feel and wish they could reach out to you without the repercussions they may encounter from others within "the church". I'm sorry you are going through this-- I really am. I went through it as well many years ago. I can tell who the true Christians really were, however, as I have reconnected with them and they do not judge me or consider me "a sinner". They realize that I still am filled with the Holy Ghost and cannot argue with the Spirit God has placed inside of me. Give it some time and then try to connect with those you feel will not judge you and who you really feel were true friends. There really are some wonderful, caring people in the UPC. My parents and many of their friends (and mine) are some of those people. Hugs and Blessings to you!
Thanks!
The closest I get to Apostolic fellowship is right here on AFF!
Savedbygrace!
03-26-2012, 09:55 PM
I agree and "standards" as opposed to "modesty" is when you start measuring the cuff or skirt lengths. That's when standards can turn ugly.
Ohhhh if you guys only knew.....skirts had to be 3 inches below the knee when seated. Sleeves had to cover the elbow. Certainly NO SPLITS, even below the knee - the girls who did wear splits were guilty of taunting men and boys with the 'now you see it, now you don't' show. Colored hose drew attention to the legs so they were also a no-no. Only 8 curls were allowed in your hair. For awhile we could not wear any gold - even on our shoes (buckles) - not even little girls - when black patent leather shoes with gold buckles were the style. That was one of the here today gone tomorrow standards. The preacher began allowing gold watches so long as they were not 'gaudy'. Then he retired and the new preacher only allowed silver - back to no gold. Years have passed since then and I hear that now the men have to wear a certain color shirt with a tie - no colored shirts allowed. Oh, and mixed race marriages were not allowed - heaven's no! However, when the pastor's daughter decided differently - well, let's just say it's ok now.
Suffice it to say......thank the Lord for my CURRENT church :))
Disclaimer: None of the comments in this post are meant to put down any person or religion - they are simply experiences in my life - which have thankfully brought me to where I am today. I have a closer walk with God today than I ever have (although I am human and have a long way to go) - I enjoy reading my bible (NIV*gasp*). I compare scriptures to the KJV which IS the most tried and true version - it is simply more complicated to wade through - and heaven knows I never managed to read my bible faithfully when I was forbidden to read any other version. Now I look forward to it. Imagine that.
Thoroughly enjoying this thread - keep it going ;)
@ Hoovie, if it's not God's will for us to be healthy why do we go against God's will and take aspirin for headaches, go to doctors when your sick? Why do you exercise? The Bible says we are to take care of our bodies. There are more scriptures in the Bible about healing than there are about how long a skirt should be. If Jesus healed everyone who asked Him, we should believe he will do it today.
As far as the person leaving a upci church, the worst thing you can do is isolate yourself from a body of believers. The devil's tactic is to keep you on your own little island. The devil will try to guilt in saying you can't go to another chruch because the don't preach "truth". You need the fellowship of other christians, even if they don't believe the same way you do. You'll discover no denomination has a monopoly on truth. They believe their revelation trumps your revelation. Every denomination has a few screws missing in their theology somewhere along the way.
bbyrd009
03-27-2012, 10:58 AM
...I'm still confused about how you get the results we got, without doing things they way we did them...
does grace mean abandoning all holiness standards, and spiritual disciplines, and church attendance?
Sometimes I feel like there are too many gray areas, and not enough clarity. Sometimes I read this board and leave with a heavy heart because I fear we are leaving something precious behind but if I try to define it, it's going to be lost in the words that I use.
Well put. I read from this that we should grasp "Understand I AM," and that what produced that wonderful fruit then is Spirit, sought after, and it is the seeking that is important. We tend to want to freeze life at what we consider an ideal moment, which denies
Understand I AM.
It is easy to believe that we have degenerated or devolved from that, when we actually have moved on, I'll say "outgrown" for lack of a better word, that specific model, maybe, but don't discount that you reflect this Spirit in your posts, for instance, and in a sense export it, which surely isn't as comfortable, but seems to be God's way? Which is lost in the defining anyway.
That church struck me as mired in religion, whereas the church of Amanah is much more comprehensible to me, for instance.
jsipe
04-06-2012, 12:37 PM
I know what you're going through.
I'm not in the UPC church at this time. I had backslid and left. when I began seeking God once again, he lead me to a church that wasn't in the UPC.
What I've learned about this experance is that you can live and stand in the truth. Repentance, being baptized in Jesus Name, and receiving the Holy Ghost is all truth. Living Holy, you will find that you need that also. God will lead you where you need to be in that. I think what happens to the men and women of God is they get so caught up in preaching against sin that it weakens us. We also need encourgement.
I'm not saying that living an unholy life if right, because it isn't. But we also need to hear about compassion, and mercy, and that Jesus Loves me. Do I listen to the men of God? yes! I need their food and miss it so. You will find that you need that food. But I also think God is calling out some people to show us we can stand alone and lean on him. We need to learn it's all about him not being stuck in traditions of man and the way things used to be done. Instead of moving forward and having revivals that can be bigger and better than the men of old, we live too much in the past victory's and not reaching for our own. God is trying to take us further than we've been before, and that takes us on unsteady ground. Like Peter going to Jesus on the water. Keep your eyes on Jesus and what he can teach you.
You will find that you love the holiness after all, and that it's ok not to fight it so much. We get tired. we want something that we can't put on fingers on.
we're seeking more than what we have. God's getting a people ready to follow him not preachers or anyone else. We've lost our vision. It's all about the lost and dying, and able to show compassion.
Hold on to the truth, don't let that go. But seek God and see what or where you need to go or be. I go to preachit.com and get sermons that I down load that keep me feed.
Fast, Pray and seek the things of the Lord! He can and will keep you, if only you will allow him to lead you.
God will give you dreams and visions.
I go to a church that at times it's hard to be there. I feel that is where God wants me. I've tried to leave there, but dont' feel right when I tried. They don't preach the truth. They have the Holy Ghost and that's about it. They know what I believe and where I stand. I now have a brother in the Lord that has come also. He is struggling also with the non-truth. But God has him there also.
I would tell anyone that it's an experience that everyone needs, because it's not. you have to have the truth in you and keep it. You have to be able to be preached against and called a cult, and still be able to stand strong in what is true and not. But it will show you that you can stand anywhere, and the Lord is your best friend.
I hope this helps you in some way.
Arphaxad
04-07-2012, 01:39 PM
@ Hoovie, if it's not God's will for us to be healthy why do we go against God's will and take aspirin for headaches, go to doctors when your sick? Why do you exercise? The Bible says we are to take care of our bodies. There are more scriptures in the Bible about healing than there are about how long a skirt should be. If Jesus healed everyone who asked Him, we should believe he will do it today.
As far as the person leaving a upci church, the worst thing you can do is isolate yourself from a body of believers. The devil's tactic is to keep you on your own little island. The devil will try to guilt in saying you can't go to another chruch because the don't preach "truth". You need the fellowship of other christians, even if they don't believe the same way you do. You'll discover no denomination has a monopoly on truth. They believe their revelation trumps your revelation. Every denomination has a few screws missing in their theology somewhere along the way.
The devil? Ha, people have told me that, along with "God is waiting for you to come back to Him". But the best one is " I'll be praying for you "', oh puhleeze, really?
:doggyrun
AreYouReady?
04-07-2012, 05:10 PM
As far as the person leaving a upci church, the worst thing you can do is isolate yourself from a body of believers. The devil's tactic is to keep you on your own little island. The devil will try to guilt in saying you can't go to another chruch because the don't preach "truth". You need the fellowship of other christians, even if they don't believe the same way you do. You'll discover no denomination has a monopoly on truth. They believe their revelation trumps your revelation. Every denomination has a few screws missing in their theology somewhere along the way.
A church can preach truth till Jesus comes back, but if they do not practice the love that is supposed to be in their hearts for someone else, all that preaching does no good. Don't you see? It's when the people mistreat others because they maybe do not play the game of "follow the leader" that drives other people away. In some churches, if you do not "follow the leader", they do not fellowship with you. Plain and simple.
Timmy
04-07-2012, 06:05 PM
@ Hoovie, if it's not God's will for us to be healthy why do we go against God's will and take aspirin for headaches, go to doctors when your sick? Why do you exercise? The Bible says we are to take care of our bodies. There are more scriptures in the Bible about healing than there are about how long a skirt should be. If Jesus healed everyone who asked Him, we should believe he will do it today.
As far as the person leaving a upci church, the worst thing you can do is isolate yourself from a body of believers. The devil's tactic is to keep you on your own little island. The devil will try to guilt in saying you can't go to another chruch because the don't preach "truth". You need the fellowship of other christians, even if they don't believe the same way you do. You'll discover no denomination has a monopoly on truth. They believe their revelation trumps your revelation. Every denomination has a few screws missing in their theology somewhere along the way.
There's a Buddhist congregating place (I don't even know what they are called!) just down the street from me. Should I go there? They don't believe the same way I do. :lol
Oh. You said Christians. Of course. My bad. Never mind. :lol
Hoovie
04-07-2012, 06:14 PM
@ Hoovie, if it's not God's will for us to be healthy why do we go against God's will and take aspirin for headaches, go to doctors when your sick? Why do you exercise? The Bible says we are to take care of our bodies. There are more scriptures in the Bible about healing than there are about how long a skirt should be. If Jesus healed everyone who asked Him, we should believe he will do it today.
Really? Says who?
Here is my post from a recent Healing thread.
My view.
God primarily heals through the natural mechanisms which he initiated and put in place in our bodies. He also has given us the wonderful gifts of medicines, doctors and other medical professionals.
Additionally, there are times when, for reasons not fully clear, he chooses to perform a miraculous healing. While believing and faith can be an element in miraculous healing, they seem to occur primarily according to the will of God, and not because we have a specific foolproof formula.
The devil? Ha, people have told me that, along with "God is waiting for you to come back to Him". But the best one is " I'll be praying for you "', oh puhleeze, really?
:doggyrun
People tell me they are praying for me. I just thank them. I mean, after all, I'm happy that people care and are praying. I have no intention to go back, however.
Arphaxad
04-07-2012, 09:57 PM
People tell me they are praying for me. I just thank them. I mean, after all, I'm happy that people care and are praying. I have no intention to go back, however.
yeah, I suppose I appreciate their concern, even though it's misguided.
:doggyrun
If Jesus healed all who asked and God heals all diseases, are we serving a different God than the God of the Bible? If you believe it's God's will for you to be sick, why do you go to the doctor? Aren't you thwarting God's will if you take medicine? If it's God's will for you to suffer, you should do it without any pharmaceutical assistance. Jesus did not refuse anyone who wanted healing.
Really? Says who?
Here is my post from a recent Healing thread.
Hoovie
04-10-2012, 09:22 PM
If Jesus healed all who asked and God heals all diseases, are we serving a different God than the God of the Bible? If you believe it's God's will for you to be sick, why do you go to the doctor? Aren't you thwarting God's will if you take medicine? If it's God's will for you to suffer, you should do it without any pharmaceutical assistance. Jesus did not refuse anyone who wanted healing.
I believe God has set the universe and all things in motion. He has made the beautiful shine of the sun, but his hand is no less delightful in the dark of night. He allows sickness, illness and death, and so yes I would say his will is manifest in our health and sickness and even our death. He knows our struggles and our human weakness. He has blessed us with medicines to ease pain and increase longevity. He even performs miracles at times.
We also know His will transcends all things temporal, and in a coming age we will be free of these fetters - for sure.
I hope this answers why I have no qualms going to a doctor...
Question: If your position is that we should all be divinely healed, why do you go to doctors?
KeptByTheWord
04-11-2012, 08:50 AM
Well, the only medicine the Bible mentions as being free to take is this.... wine....
Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for your stomach!
:happydance
Can you think of any other examples in the Bible where medicine was encouraged to be taken?
Just wondering.
Praxeas
04-11-2012, 12:23 PM
Well, the only medicine the Bible mentions as being free to take is this.... wine....
Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for your stomach!
:happydance
Can you think of any other examples in the Bible where medicine was encouraged to be taken?
Just wondering.
ISBE
Very few specific remedies are mentioned in the Bible. "Balm of Gilead" is said to be an anodyne (Jer_8:22; compare Jer_51:8). The love-fruits, "mandrakes" (Gen_30:14) and "caperberry" (Ecc_12:5 margin), myrrh, anise, rue, cummin, the "oil and wine" of the Good Samaritan, soap and sodic carbonate ("natron," called by mistake "nitre") as cleansers, and Hezekiah's "fig poultice" nearly exhaust the catalogue. In the Apocrypha we have the heart, liver and gall of Tobit's fish (Tobit 6:7). In the Egyptian pharmacopoeia are the names of many plants which cannot be identified, but most of the remedies used by them were dietetic, such as honey, milk, meal, oil, vinegar, wine. The Babylonian medicines, as far as they can be identified, are similar. In the Mishna we have references to wormwood, poppy, hemlock, aconite and other drugs. The apothecary mentioned in the King James Version (Exo_30:25, etc.) was a maker of perfumes, not of medicines. Among the fellahîn many common plants are used as folk-remedies, but they put most confidence in amulets or charms, which are worn by most Palestinian peasants to ward off or to heal diseases.
Pheobe2
04-25-2012, 09:35 PM
I am also pondering leaving a UPCI organization church. I have prayed but no answer as of yet, or shall I say, No clear answer. I am not sure what to tell the pastor as I have attended this church for 30 + years. Not agreeing with everything now and don't know where to start with leaving. As spoken on this thread earlier, the people in the UPC church will treat me like I have a bad disease after I leave. Ids the Christian? Or are they just protecting themselves from my persuasion? All comments welcome.
bbyrd009
04-25-2012, 10:48 PM
You can leave your church from right where you're at,
stay there and change it : )
http://www.wikihow.com/Lose-Your-Religion
AreYouReady?
04-25-2012, 11:43 PM
Phobe, sometimes when we actually think about the validity of what we are told, then voice it, the other people's reaction to your change in thought may be uncomfortable enough for you to make that change in churches.
In my case, I never changed my belief in the Oneness of God, that all the fullness of the God bodily is in Christ. What I had a problem with was the attachment of holiness standards of hair and dress being applied to my salvation as necessary, when my Bible states that there is nothing we can do of ourselves in this flesh to be saved.
The blood of Jesus alone is what is applied to our soul for salvation.
I am thankful for the teachings of Baptism in Jesus Name and the infilling of the Holy Ghost. It is a life-changing experience.
Do I believe that being dressed modestly is important? Yes.
Does it have to be only dresses? NO.
Do I believe that women should have uncut hair? NO.
Do I believe in the doctrine of holy magic hair. NO. This borders on idolatry to me.
Do I believe in a grocery list of do's and dont's? No. I believe the Holy Ghost teaches and leads us into all truths. Following a list does not develop deep seated convictions.
Does it matter to me that people in UPC treated me bad? At first it did, but God has given me so many more meaningful relationships that I feel sorry for those who did treat me bad because I consider it their loss for the chance to be kind to somebody they disagreed with.
It is a challenge to step out in faith. Not going to lie to you and say you won't be lonely in the beginning. It was a very lonely walk for me. But prayer and reading Bible does help and God gives you friends to replace those whom you thought was your friend. And when I was feeling especially saddened, the Holy Ghost came and renewed and strengthened my spirit.
Then again, there may be some in your congregation who will continue to be your friend. You never know how God will work in your life.
Leaving doesn't have to mess one up. It can be a new and exciting experience as long as you stay close to God and seek His will.
Pheobe2
04-26-2012, 06:37 AM
Thanks RYR, Yes it is mostly the man made standards that I really never agreed with. After studying them for years and seeking out answers I now think they are just man made. Yes I believe that we should dress modest, and if the barn needs painting, well then we should paint it to look and feel better about ourselves ( make up) Sometimes I feel like a hypocrite when I take off my ( light) makeup before church and maybe an extra ring I had on that day. My husband is a very good Christian man, but will not attend this church because he says they are proud, elite and say he isn't saved or that his experience with Christ isn't good enough. There have been numerous preachers that have left the UPC and started churches and did away with most of the standards, but they are too far for me to attend there. I appreciate your honesty and guidance. P
Savedbygrace!
04-26-2012, 07:15 AM
Thanks RYR, Yes it is mostly the man made standards that I really never agreed with. After studying them for years and seeking out answers I now think they are just man made. Yes I believe that we should dress modest, and if the barn needs painting, well then we should paint it to look and feel better about ourselves ( make up) Sometimes I feel like a hypocrite when I take off my ( light) makeup before church and maybe an extra ring I had on that day. My husband is a very good Christian man, but will not attend this church because he says they are proud, elite and say he isn't saved or that his experience with Christ isn't good enough. There have been numerous preachers that have left the UPC and started churches and did away with most of the standards, but they are too far for me to attend there. I appreciate your honesty and guidance. P
Pheobe2,
What general area do you live in - maybe someone on here will be able to point out somewhere you can go? Btw, I am with you on the standards. My husband and I searched for a very long time before finally finding a wonderful church that believes in Oneness, but does not pound the pulpit about standards.
bbyrd009
04-26-2012, 09:06 AM
Ok, but I maintain that if you're "leaving" anyway, you might just do the hard thing, stop the hypocrisy first.
Be perfect, and make them kick you out, lol. This is the battle, imo.
AreYouReady?
04-26-2012, 09:43 AM
Ok, but I maintain that if you're "leaving" anyway, you might just do the hard thing, stop the hypocrisy first.
Be perfect, and make them kick you out, lol. This is the battle, imo.
:lol !!!
Byrd...you are just too much sometimes. :heeheehee That what I like about you.
But...I do agree that we should not have to hide anything for fear of ostracization.
Your home and husband should come before any loyalty to any church gathering. The two of you should be in agreement together to find an assembly to worship in because the two of you are one in God's eyes.
In our home we believe that God has set the husband to be the spiritual leadership of his family next after God. Then comes Pastor and church activities. There is biblical precedence for this belief. The home is our sanctuary with Christ as head, then husband and no other man should usurp husband's authority over his home.
Pheobe2
04-26-2012, 10:12 AM
I love your Ps 118:11 verse. It fits !!
What you say is true about the husband being the head. He does not attend a UPC church and states that he never will. We are looking for a oneness maybe charismatic church not more than 20 minutes drive one way. Thanks for your input, P
bbyrd009
04-26-2012, 10:43 AM
Bet your hubby likes my idea : )
Lafon
04-26-2012, 12:34 PM
Perhaps if the modern Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal churches, be they UPCI or others, returned to "doing church" likened to that of the first-century churches, instead of continuing to follow the misguided (corrupt) practices and rituals of the "great whore" from whence our forefathers became separate, there would not be as many who have become discouraged and elected to "abandon" the fold.
I could (but won't) sit here and write quite a "laundry list" of practices and rituals which even the UPCI indulges in that are simply non-biblical, but I will list just this one:
I noted in the most recent edition of the Pentecostal Herald (have always subscribed to it, although I left the UPCI more than 15 years ago), that this Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal ministerial alliance has now decided to enter the business of finances - put your money in their CDs so that it can be used to finance missionary endeavors, and realize a monetary gain. Where does one find the first-century church doing such a thing?
Nuf said already!
Michael Phelps
04-26-2012, 12:38 PM
Perhaps if the modern Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal churches, be they UPCI or others, returned to "doing church" likened to that of the first-century churches, instead of continuing to follow the misguided (corrupt) practices and rituals of the "great whore" from whence our forefathers became separate, there would not be as many who have become discouraged and elected to "abandon" the fold.
I could (but won't) sit here and write quite a "laundry list" of practices and rituals which even the UPCI indulges in that are simply non-biblical, but I will list just this one:
I noted in the most recent edition of the Pentecostal Herald (have always subscribed to it, although I left the UPCI more than 15 years ago), that this Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal ministerial alliance has now decided to enter the business of finances - put your money in their CDs so that it can be used to finance missionary endeavors, and realize a monetary gain. Where does one find the first-century church doing such a thing?
Nuf said already!
Interesting! Wonder if this will affect their "not for profit" status?
bbyrd009
04-26-2012, 01:06 PM
Interesting! Wonder if this will affect their "not for profit" status?
Like that ho is not pretty thoroughly pimped already...
Michael Phelps
04-26-2012, 01:12 PM
Like that ho is not pretty thoroughly pimped already...
:highfive:heeheehee
houston
04-26-2012, 05:10 PM
Like that ho is not pretty thoroughly pimped already...
Wow. That sounds like something I would have said. Love it! :happydance
I love your Ps 118:11 verse. It fits !!
What you say is true about the husband being the head. He does not attend a UPC church and states that he never will. We are looking for a oneness maybe charismatic church not more than 20 minutes drive one way. Thanks for your input, P
Oneness Charismatic church? How does one even start to find with no word of mouth? Phone Interviews/Visits with the Pastors/churches?
What is the alternative, leave a oneness standards church and go to a trinity church without standards? Reading these many threads only leave me with questions.
Pheobe2
04-26-2012, 06:13 PM
Well, you would visit different churches. And network with friends. There are many churches, not UPC , that are oneness. I am wanting to leave the many man made traditional of UPC and others like it.
AreYouReady?
04-26-2012, 06:57 PM
Rose, you may attend a church where everybody loves one another and treat one another well.
There are many churches where people are not so fortunate.
UPC and other oneness churches would be overflowing with people if they did not put "standards" above love and kindness.
Dordrecht
04-26-2012, 07:02 PM
....put your money in their CDs so that it can be used to finance missionary endeavors, and realize a monetary gain. Where does one find the first-century church doing such a thing?
That's because they had no CDs in those days.:rolleyes:
AreYouReady?
04-26-2012, 07:05 PM
That's because they had no CDs in those days.:rolleyes:
:ursofunny
Ah....but the question is if they could have would they have?
Dordrecht
04-26-2012, 08:18 PM
For some reason I think they might not have needed much money in those days.
I think food and a roof over their head would be the main concern.
BrotherEastman
05-07-2012, 12:00 PM
Oneness Charismatic church? How does one even start to find with no word of mouth? Phone Interviews/Visits with the Pastors/churches?
What is the alternative, leave a oneness standards church and go to a trinity church without standards? Reading these many threads only leave me with questions.
My sister did this within the last 4 months.
I've done fine at a trinity (actually two trinity churches, one from 1992 to 2006 and another from 2006 to present). Since I believe that salvation happens prior to and separate from water baptism and Spirit baptism, the folks in these trinity churches are saved and are my brothers and sisters. Many of the folks I fellowship with have been baptized in the Spirit. What about water baptism? Well, OP folks don't agree on the "formula" and some of them condemn and ........ one another for adding the word "Lord" to the baptismal formula or for leaving off the word "Lord" as part of the formula.
Some OP's teach that
the name of the Father is Lord
the name of the Son is Jesus
the name of the Holy Ghost is Christ,
therefore these three words "Lord Jesus Christ" is the full name of God
and these thee names are one just like God is three in one.
Doesn't that sound a little like trinity to you?
My sister did this within the last 4 months.
But, in my case it would be trading one false teaching (standards) for another (trinity)... why bother? Not an equal trade-off IMHO. I think standards are insignificant when compared to the wonderful revelation of the oneness of God. :)
bbyrd009
05-07-2012, 12:33 PM
But, in my case it would be trading one false teaching (standards) for another (trinity)... why bother? Not an equal trade-off IMHO. I think standards are insignificant when compared to the wonderful revelation of the oneness of God. :)
Amen, sister. I would like to suggest
(since your hubby has apparently nixed
my previous idea?) something that you
may not hear from anyone else, here;
but is intuitive, and you can Google:
"Right Pastor." (if I haven't already-
-sorry if I have)
Praying God's will for you, which I'm
persuaded you are already doing, Amen.
AreYouReady?
05-07-2012, 12:46 PM
But, in my case it would be trading one false teaching (standards) for another (trinity)... why bother? Not an equal trade-off IMHO. I think standards are insignificant when compared to the wonderful revelation of the oneness of God. :)
So...are you in a "lesser of two false teachings" type of situation?
How can one choose a false teaching over another one?
bbyrd009
05-07-2012, 01:01 PM
: popcorn
AreYouReady?
05-07-2012, 01:10 PM
:popcorn2
There won't be no :popcorn2on this one.
I am not going to argue with this sweet lady. Just want her to think about another pov. :D
BrotherEastman
05-07-2012, 01:20 PM
But, in my case it would be trading one false teaching (standards) for another (trinity)... why bother? Not an equal trade-off IMHO. I think standards are insignificant when compared to the wonderful revelation of the oneness of God. :)
she will always believe in the Oneness of God, I have cousins who also left standards to a trinity church but they have never denied who God really is.
AreYouReady?
05-07-2012, 01:28 PM
she will always believe in the Oneness of God, I have cousins who also left standards to a trinity church but they have never denied who God really is.
:thumbsup Always. Once you have that revelation, it stays with you.
bbyrd009
05-07-2012, 02:38 PM
:thumbsup Always. Once you have that revelation, it stays with you.
yup
RandyWayne
05-08-2012, 08:31 AM
I still can't believe that "ONE God" is a revelation.
Timmy
05-08-2012, 08:47 AM
I still can't believe that "ONE God" is a revelation.
Not just any revelation. A wonderful revelation!
Margies3
05-08-2012, 09:27 AM
she will always believe in the Oneness of God, I have cousins who also left standards to a trinity church but they have never denied who God really is.
I still can't believe that "ONE God" is a revelation.
Randy, I am with you on this one. You all can say what you want, but my experience in my 56 years of life has been that almost all people who claim to believe/teach trinity actually believe/teach exactly the same thing as those I know who believe/teach oneness. If you ask either one to explain it, they will either use the egg (the shell, the whites and the yolk, yet still one egg) or a person (Walt is a son, a husband a father. Still one person).
I am more and more convinced that way back when in the early days (the early 1900's), separating themselves made them more special and able to attract larger crowds and this was one means to do that.
RandyWayne
05-08-2012, 09:31 AM
Randy, I am with you on this one. You all can say what you want, but my experience in my 56 years of life has been that almost all people who claim to believe/teach trinity actually believe/teach exactly the same thing as those I know who believe/teach oneness. If you ask either one to explain it, they will either use the egg (the shell, the whites and the yolk, yet still one egg) or a person (Walt is a son, a husband a father. Still one person).
I am more and more convinced that way back when in the early days (the early 1900's), separating themselves made them more special and able to attract larger crowds and this was one means to do that.
I did know ONE person (I think) who believed in a multitude of literal separate "gods" and that is/was my dear departed grandma who was a die hard traditional Catholic. With her (again, I think) it was the classic trinity combined with Mary and a multitude of saints who were all prayed to individually. But aside from her I cannot think of anyone who truly believes in multiple distinct gods in heaven.
Cindy
05-08-2012, 09:31 AM
God is very explicit about being the One true and living God!!
RandyWayne
05-08-2012, 09:35 AM
God is very explicit about being the One true and living God!!
And yet there are epic arguments, even among "oneness" folk as to what exactly "One God!" means. These debates and ideological battles have the feel of two astrophysicists, one who subscribes to 9 time-space dimensions and the other to 12, engaged in a mental cage match where only one can emerge victories.
And if you don't believe in their exact interpretation of what "One God!" means, you are as lost as two boys kissing!
Cindy
05-08-2012, 09:37 AM
And yet there are epic arguments, even among "oneness" folk as to what exactly "One God!" means. These debates and ideological battles have the feel of two astrophysicists, one who subscribes to 9 time-space dimensions and the other to 12, engaged in a mental cage match where only one can emerge victories.
And if you don't believe in their exact interpretation of what "One God!" means, you are as lost as two boys kissing!
Yep, we are always wanting to prove our theories. Good grief.
AreYouReady?
05-08-2012, 10:01 AM
I've grew up Catholic. I was taught 3 separate and distinct persons....and then there was Mary.
I've been to Baptist churches, but never had the impression that there was 3 separate and distinct persons. Those I went to worshiped Jesus.
Never before have I ever entered a place where a simple concept was stretched, discussed, debated, picked apart and put back together again like a puzzle such as the godhead issue.
I'm with Cindy. There is but one and true living God. He came in the form of man, Jesus. When we die, we will see Jesus because it's all in Him!
I just never thought something so simple would be put through the grinder in so many ways.
bbyrd009
05-08-2012, 10:06 AM
...I just never thought something so simple would be put through the grinder in so many ways.
Mmm, a replacement for "witnessing" in many minds, I think.
Timmy
05-08-2012, 10:50 AM
I've grew up Catholic. I was taught 3 separate and distinct persons....and then there was Mary.
I've been to Baptist churches, but never had the impression that there was 3 separate and distinct persons. Those I went to worshiped Jesus.
Never before have I ever entered a place where a simple concept was stretched, discussed, debated, picked apart and put back together again like a puzzle such as the godhead issue.
I'm with Cindy. There is but one and true living God. He came in the form of man, Jesus.
And in that form, He talked with another form, had different desires (will), knew different things than the other form, etc. Said it was forgivable to blaspheme that form but not forgivable to blaspheme another form. One form was raised from the dead by another form. It's so simple! :thumbsup
When we die, we will see Jesus because it's all in Him!
I just never thought something so simple would be put through the grinder in so many ways.
Yeah, so simple! :lol
AreYouReady?
05-08-2012, 11:01 AM
Isn't one simpler than three? :)
Timmy
05-08-2012, 11:16 AM
Isn't one simpler than three? :)
Touche! :lol
I do believe that there are many who adhere closer to a Oneness understanding of the Godhead, however I have been hearing more people moving closer to the Tritheistic side of the Trinity. The problem with the Trinitarian doctrine is simply that it attempts to balance tritheism with monotheism, and it simply can not be done.
AreYouReady?
05-08-2012, 06:31 PM
And yet there are epic arguments, even among "oneness" folk as to what exactly "One God!" means. These debates and ideological battles have the feel of two astrophysicists, one who subscribes to 9 time-space dimensions and the other to 12, engaged in a mental cage match where only one can emerge victories.
And if you don't believe in their exact interpretation of what "One God!" means, you are as lost as two boys kissing!
My husband says just because somebody doesn't understand the oneness of God doesn't mean that they are lost.
bbyrd009
05-08-2012, 07:10 PM
I mean, please.
acerrak
05-15-2012, 06:39 AM
My husband says just because somebody doesn't understand the oneness of God doesn't mean that they are lost.
that would be if the oneness of God is correct in itself as doctrine. as defined by the upci or OP.
as i have left the UPC As well, i find the Spirit of God moving in trinitarian churches just as much as any upc.
the issue is man tries to limit Gods grace and love to there own view, when God is specific, whoseover will call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
God will go to where people love him.
AreYouReady?
05-15-2012, 08:12 AM
But who can define God?
God existed before man's theology. People had faith before they organized together and wrote Articles of Faith.
I just know that my Bible says... The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
(Mark 12:29)
I believe that since God is a Spirit and our Creator of the Universe, He can manifest Himself in any form that He pleases. He is still but one God.
I am just going to believe and quit trying to fit myself into what man says I should believe.
acerrak
05-15-2012, 08:20 AM
But who can define God?
God existed before man's theology. People had faith before they organized together and wrote Articles of Faith.
I just know that my Bible says... The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
(Mark 12:29)
I believe that since God is a Spirit and our Creator of the Universe, He can manifest Himself in any form that He pleases. He is still but one God.
I am just going to believe and quit trying to fit myself into what man says I should believe.
I think you will do just Fine then.
bbyrd009
05-15-2012, 12:09 PM
Amen to that. You bring up a good point, AYR, in your reflection
of a Hebrew prayer, that has just recently been placed
in front of me:
All those guys we read about in the NT, the "Apostles,"
were all Jewish. Paul was a Rabbi. Why then, is our NT
derived from the Greek? I'm totally ignorant here,
but seeking an English translation of the NT from
Hebrew (they call it a B'rit Chadeshah,
and I have already discovered that Romans
is a midrash, meant to be read differently from,
can't find it now; Books that are not midrash.
GraceAmazing
06-07-2012, 03:29 PM
My goodness....without reading all 20 pages, how did this thread get into the debate of oneness vs. trinity...SMH...and yes, that means smack my head in my book!
HolyFire
06-07-2012, 05:09 PM
maybe I should say in my case I think the people in authority cared, still do care about me.
But you are right, they way we obeyed them was . . . I don't know how to say it I have such mixed feeling about it.
I still think that our passion and zeal for God brought along with it a deep move of God. I don't know how to untangle the single minded devotion to God that I felt back then from the results of that devotion: Many souls coming into the kingdom, being baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost.
I'm still confused about how you get the results we got, without doing things they way we did them.
I'm read these boards and people talk about the grace of God, and how it's ok to do many of the things that we were taught not to do.
If you drink and smoke and immerse yourself in movies and entertainment, and neglect prayer, bible, fasting, church, and devotion to God, can you still have the same results?
does grace mean abandoning all holiness standards, and spiritual disciplines, and church attendance?
Sometimes I feel like there are too many gray areas, and not enough clarity. Sometimes I read this board and leave with a heavy heart because I fear we are leaving something precious behind but if I try to define it, it's going to be lost in the words that I use.
I agree 100%. I see people leave, tell me they are free from legalism - all the while entertaining themselves with shows/movies filled with subtle and not-so-subtle anti-Christian/pro-world system themes and ideologies. They found grace at the church around the corner, but they also found (some years later) out they're about to be a grandparent out of wedlock. (yes it happens in UPC churches).
So many make walking with Jesus more about checklists and performance, not relationship. It feels like work, so when they leave, grace is used as a landing spot for for their conscience. Rarely do people truly get closer to Him when they 'flee legalism'.
acerrak
06-08-2012, 06:38 AM
I agree 100%. I see people leave, tell me they are free from legalism - all the while entertaining themselves with shows/movies filled with subtle and not-so-subtle anti-Christian/pro-world system themes and ideologies. They found grace at the church around the corner, but they also found (some years later) out they're about to be a grandparent out of wedlock. (yes it happens in UPC churches). .
there is nothing wrong with entertainment, you should read about the festivals and such the jews did for the Lord.can it be abused yea just as much as the internet can be. I left the bondage of legalism from the upci, and i have to say I do miss the people but i dont miss the standards of man.
How can you preach freedom in Christ when your in bondage to mans standards. Look at the book called practical holiness from david bernard. (the book is nothing but rules and guidelines made by a man, just like the pharasees would do in Jesus day)
To be Holy is to be seperated. However to Be seperated is not nothing you do. It Is God who seperates you. Israel was Holy To God because He seperated it from the World.
No facial hair,
Brother why are you in Blue jeans, Do you have a suit?
Wedding rings? what there pagen
She spoke in tongues yet she keeps comming to church with her pants on.
Man they cut her little girls hair..
well if your happy with what you have Holyfire more power to you. just dont turn your standards into a judging stick of another mans rightousness.
So many make walking with Jesus more about checklists and performance, not relationship. It feels like work, so when they leave, grace is used as a landing spot for for their conscience. Rarely do people truly get closer to Him when they 'flee legalism'.
Thats your personal opinion which i would state is a lie cause I know I did. I was held back because of mans standards. I couldnt preach unless i conformed to mans standards. I couldnt teach. You better believe I grew. It was sad i could preach in other peoples Pullpits but i couldnt get behind my own churches pullpit. cause i would not confirm to the pastors legalist ways. and i told him it was legalism..
Its a bunch of bull to turn a blind eye when we know that legalism is happening. Legalism will choke the relationship out of you. cause if you cant fit in then there is no exceptance from the body of believers....
Now those petty things that was a stumbling block to me is no longer there.
HolyFire
06-09-2012, 03:13 PM
there is nothing wrong with entertainment, you should read about the festivals and such the jews did for the Lord.can it be abused yea just as much as the internet can be. I left the bondage of legalism from the upci, and i have to say I do miss the people but i dont miss the standards of man.
How can you preach freedom in Christ when your in bondage to mans standards. Look at the book called practical holiness from david bernard. (the book is nothing but rules and guidelines made by a man, just like the pharasees would do in Jesus day)
To be Holy is to be seperated. However to Be seperated is not nothing you do. It Is God who seperates you. Israel was Holy To God because He seperated it from the World.
No facial hair,
Brother why are you in Blue jeans, Do you have a suit?
Wedding rings? what there pagen
She spoke in tongues yet she keeps comming to church with her pants on.
Man they cut her little girls hair..
well if your happy with what you have Holyfire more power to you. just dont turn your standards into a judging stick of another mans rightousness.
Thats your personal opinion which i would state is a lie cause I know I did. I was held back because of mans standards. I couldnt preach unless i conformed to mans standards. I couldnt teach. You better believe I grew. It was sad i could preach in other peoples Pullpits but i couldnt get behind my own churches pullpit. cause i would not confirm to the pastors legalist ways. and i told him it was legalism..
Its a bunch of bull to turn a blind eye when we know that legalism is happening. Legalism will choke the relationship out of you. cause if you cant fit in then there is no exceptance from the body of believers....
Now those petty things that was a stumbling block to me is no longer there.
I'm a minister, I am used in the gifts, and I wear jeans to church about half the time. Not a problem at my church.
Facial hair is not an issue at my church as far as attendance, ministers no. Its a social thing. Others in the church, that's fine.
I don't judge others by my measuring stick. I don't even own a stick. I own a plumbline, the Word of God, to see how I measure up (and I fail horribly every day).
My problem is with cable television, not the apparatus it comes through. Cable/movies are mainly the spokesperson of this world's aganda and I'll have no part of it. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus (Phil 2:5). Phil 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
I don't have a problem with entertainment in itself. I have a 2 year old daughter and two dogs that keep me entertained. I have friends that I enjoy spending time with. However, I don't dull my spiritual senses with worldy programs, or books that don't edify. I don't listen to music that doesn't have anything to do with Him. I used to do all of the above, and it didn't build me up at all. His voice becomes dim, my spirit becomes muddy and blah. I don't care to know about all that, I want to know Him! These are lifestyle changes I made, no one had to tell me, or threaten me with hell.
BeenThinkin
06-09-2012, 05:01 PM
I'm a minister, I am used in the gifts, and I wear jeans to church about half the time. Not a problem at my church.
Facial hair is not an issue at my church as far as attendance, ministers no. Its a social thing. Others in the church, that's fine.
I don't judge others by my measuring stick. I don't even own a stick. I own a plumbline, the Word of God, to see how I measure up (and I fail horribly every day).
My problem is with cable television, not the apparatus it comes through. Cable/movies are mainly the spokesperson of this world's aganda and I'll have no part of it. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus (Phil 2:5). Phil 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
I don't have a problem with entertainment in itself. I have a 2 year old daughter and two dogs that keep me entertained. I have friends that I enjoy spending time with. However, I don't dull my spiritual senses with worldy programs, or books that don't edify. I don't listen to music that doesn't have anything to do with Him. I used to do all of the above, and it didn't build me up at all. His voice becomes dim, my spirit becomes muddy and blah. I don't care to know about all that, I want to know Him! These are lifestyle changes I made, no one had to tell me, or threaten me with hell.
HolyFire, as holy as you are how in the world can you allow a computer in your home? It is worse than a cable system, it is a source of anything that your little heart can desire! And it's in your home??? Your children may learn how to use it and look at something that you wouldn't want them to see. Oh, yes, you can block, but kids now days can unblock faster than you can block. "Oh consistency, where art thou?" And by the way, is the computer not more so the spokesperson of this world's agenda? Come on HolyFire!
Been Thinkin
HolyFire
06-10-2012, 05:06 AM
HolyFire, as holy as you are how in the world can you allow a computer in your home? It is worse than a cable system, it is a source of anything that your little heart can desire! And it's in your home??? Your children may learn how to use it and look at something that you wouldn't want them to see. Oh, yes, you can block, but kids now days can unblock faster than you can block. "Oh consistency, where art thou?" And by the way, is the computer not more so the spokesperson of this world's agenda? Come on HolyFire!
Been Thinkin
Never said I was holier than anyone else. Sorry if you took it that way.
As to the computer, as of right now there is worth in it. YouTube for sermons, NetFlix (I watch what and when I want - no waiting on a time or channel) for Sesame Street and documentaries. AFF so I can have these discussions with you. Cable is the mouthpiece of Hollywood/Madison Ave. and there is hardly a channel on there worth watching anymore.
As far as blocking stuff, if I block something it will stay blocked, I have enough experience fixing computers (and my Bro-in-law is an IT director) to make sure of it. Plus, the computer is in the living room, out in the open.
You completely missed the spirit of my post above. I'm hungry for Christ.
Here's my last little comment about cable television. I saw this in a newspaper and tore it out, keeping it in my wallet as a reminder I'm responsible for someone else's life and walk with Jesus Christ. It fit my situation as I have a 20-month old in the house who is now talking in sentences (sorta).
http://cdn.svcs.c2.uclick.com/c2/9e35aca0664a012f2fdb00163e41dd5b
BeenThinkin
06-10-2012, 04:47 PM
Never said I was holier than anyone else. Sorry if you took it that way.
As to the computer, as of right now there is worth in it. YouTube for sermons, NetFlix (I watch what and when I want - no waiting on a time or channel) for Sesame Street and documentaries. AFF so I can have these discussions with you. Cable is the mouthpiece of Hollywood/Madison Ave. and there is hardly a channel on there worth watching anymore.
As far as blocking stuff, if I block something it will stay blocked, I have enough experience fixing computers (and my Bro-in-law is an IT director) to make sure of it. Plus, the computer is in the living room, out in the open.
You completely missed the spirit of my post above. I'm hungry for Christ.
Here's my last little comment about cable television. I saw this in a newspaper and tore it out, keeping it in my wallet as a reminder I'm responsible for someone else's life and walk with Jesus Christ. It fit my situation as I have a 20-month old in the house who is now talking in sentences (sorta).
http://cdn.svcs.c2.uclick.com/c2/9e35aca0664a012f2fdb00163e41dd5b
HolyFire,
I didn't say you were holier than anyone else. I said, "As holy as you are....!" Is there "ANY" worth in the TV? And how do you know what's on the channels? Besides that, you don't have to have cable to get TV.
And believe me, I don't really care whether you have TV, cable or ten computers. I just get tired of the inconsistency of some talking about how bad TV is how they would never have one in their home and then they have a computer which has more filth available on it than a TV ever has.
How would you compare TV — Computer? Can you see folks having open sex on TV with no holds barred? You can on a computer. Can a child contact someone on a TV and talk with perverts and child molesters? You can on a computer.
The point I'm trying to make is be consistent! You can block channels on TV too. What is the computer the mouth piece for?
Again, whatever you choose to believe, have in your home, and be a part of is your business. Only when you start posting things on AFF do you open it for discussion. And that is simply what I am doing. Discussing something you posted.
Thanks and have a great day.
Been Thinkin
HolyFire
06-10-2012, 09:07 PM
HolyFire,
I didn't say you were holier than anyone else. I said, "As holy as you are....!" Is there "ANY" worth in the TV?
And how do you know what's on the channels? Besides that, you don't have to have cable to get TV.
I have a TV. I live in an apartment and cable is not optional. I relaxed my stance on TV not long ago, it didn't last long. I saw a lot of works of the flesh, relativism and gay agenda being pushed. No thanks.
And believe me, I don't really care whether you have TV, cable or ten computers. I just get tired of the inconsistency of some talking about how bad TV is how they would never have one in their home and then they have a computer which has more filth available on it than a TV ever has.
How would you compare TV — Computer? Can you see folks having open sex on TV with no holds barred? You can on a computer. Can a child contact someone on a TV and talk with perverts and child molesters? You can on a computer.
The point I'm trying to make is be consistent! You can block channels on TV too. What is the computer the mouth piece for?
Again, whatever you choose to believe, have in your home, and be a part of is your business. Only when you start posting things on AFF do you open it for discussion. And that is simply what I am doing. Discussing something you posted.
Thanks and have a great day.
Been Thinkin
I understand what you mean about consistency. The Net, I choose the when, the where, the how. That and other practical reasons, as in, have you tried finding a job without the internet? Yeesh. As I type this my 20 month old is fighting sleep while watching Elmo. ABC's and 123's. I know they had Katie Perry on once, but on Netflix I control what's on. Documentaries, etc.
My spiritual stance also crosses over to books as well. I hardly read fiction anymore, as most conflict with Christ and His message. Cussing, killing or making entertainment out of a sin Christ died to erase from our souls. I understand we'll see things in our daily lives, Christ equipped us for that, but I don't go looking for it.
Internet is a convenience. You can bank without the internet. There are plenty of jobs who do not require using the internet.
I understand what you mean about consistency. The Net, I choose the when, the where, the how. That and other practical reasons, as in, have you tried finding a job without the internet? Yeesh. As I type this my 20 month old is fighting sleep while watching Elmo. ABC's and 123's. I know they had Katie Perry on once, but on Netflix I control what's on. Documentaries, etc.
My spiritual stance also crosses over to books as well. I hardly read fiction anymore, as most conflict with Christ and His message. Cussing, killing or making entertainment out of a sin Christ died to erase from our souls. I understand we'll see things in our daily lives, Christ equipped us for that, but I don't go looking for it.
HolyFire
06-11-2012, 04:29 AM
Internet is a convenience. You can bank without the internet. There are plenty of jobs who do not require using the internet.
Convenience, yes. However, I couldn't have gotten the job I have now otherwise. We only accept resumes online at Hostess Brands. The HR guy is a regional HR guy.
I don't bank on the Net, however, I do check my balance using it (convenience).
acerrak
06-11-2012, 05:46 AM
tv is a medium it has good and bad points like anything else. TV has made my little 3 year old child a little einstien. We let her watch kids shows that are designed to better there knowledge and social development. I have 3 kids The first 2 was raised with out cable as you say. My oldest was actually behind in school also both of them needed rescourse and speech.
My little 3year old could have a conversation with you at the age of 2 what was the difference? Intellegent kid shows. You forget brother anything can be destructive to a person not just TV . the internet 2. That is the biggest place to get porn and its right at your finger tips. all you have todo is type google then type porn and "WAL-LA" there is naked pictures galore.
tv works the same way You have to see what is comming on. There is also lock outs and passcodes to block channels. You or anyone else with out a tv doesnt make you any more spiritual than those with a t.v
As for your declaring your self a minister with Gifts. arnt we all? I minister i have gifts? should you now comform to my view??
it gets me the upci .. only sinners go to the movies.. i remember we had a women at church go see one of those twilight movies and she posted it on face book. People at church called her a devil worshipper................ Her reply its fictional dont you understand what fictional is. Im not worshipping any of it.
Then the pastor got on there and talked about morals.. Yes Pants facial hair was a issue in my church. there is no one on the platform in such away. I have left and now attend a non denominational trinitarian pentacostal church and I love it. same Spirit same outpours of the Spirit same Gifts... alot of less legalism
There are a lot of employers who don't use the internet for hiring people.
Convenience, yes. However, I couldn't have gotten the job I have now otherwise. We only accept resumes online at Hostess Brands. The HR guy is a regional HR guy.
I don't bank on the Net, however, I do check my balance using it (convenience).
RandyWayne
06-11-2012, 08:39 AM
tv is a medium it has good and bad points like anything else. TV has made my little 3 year old child a little einstien. We let her watch kids shows that are designed to better there knowledge and social development. I have 3 kids The first 2 was raised with out cable as you say. My oldest was actually behind in school also both of them needed rescourse and speech.
My little 3year old could have a conversation with you at the age of 2 what was the difference? Intellegent kid shows. You forget brother anything can be destructive to a person not just TV . the internet 2. That is the biggest place to get porn and its right at your finger tips. all you have todo is type google then type porn and "WAL-LA" there is naked pictures galore.
tv works the same way You have to see what is comming on. There is also lock outs and passcodes to block channels. You or anyone else with out a tv doesnt make you any more spiritual than those with a t.v
As for your declaring your self a minister with Gifts. arnt we all? I minister i have gifts? should you now comform to my view??
it gets me the upci .. only sinners go to the movies.. i remember we had a women at church go see one of those twilight movies and she posted it on face book. People at church called her a devil worshipper................ Her reply its fictional dont you understand what fictional is. Im not worshipping any of it.
Then the pastor got on there and talked about morals.. Yes Pants facial hair was a issue in my church. there is no one on the platform in such away. I have left and now attend a non denominational trinitarian pentacostal church and I love it. same Spirit same outpours of the Spirit same Gifts... alot of less legalism
My experience with the UPC and movies/theaters goes back to the 80's but it was usually the ultimate in circular logic. One of the reasons we were told not to go to movies (besides their content) was that they were shown in theaters, and we ALL know the other stuff that went on there, like sex in the back seats! We were also not told to go to theaters because they showed movies there.
acerrak
06-11-2012, 08:46 AM
and we ALL know the other stuff that went on there, like sex in the back seats!
umm yea....... it was the norm in every theatre i went ...:covereyes
lets face it kids and sex happened all over the place but they didnt boycott those either lol
I have the title for my next book.
Legalism- Damned If You Do, Damned If You Don't.
acerrak
06-11-2012, 11:41 AM
I have the title for my next book.
Legalism- Damned If You Do, Damned If You Don't.
If i ever started Mine it would be called the washing of Cups-
RandyWayne
06-11-2012, 11:41 AM
I have the title for my next book.
Legalism- Damned If You Do, Damned If You Don't.
The audio book version would be narrated by Meatloaf.
BeenThinkin
06-11-2012, 11:44 AM
I have the title for my next book.
Legalism- Damned If You Do, Damned If You Don't.
Won't work tv1a. You can't use that word in a Legalistic publication! Won't ever become #1 seller in the Legalistic Book Store. Too many would be afraid they would backslide if they bought it! (Just kidding!!!! not!) :heeheehee :happydance
Been Thinkin
AreYouReady?
06-11-2012, 12:35 PM
umm yea....... it was the norm in every theatre i went ...:covereyes
lets face it kids and sex happened all over the place but they didnt boycott those either lol
In these parts, my kids were considered outcasts by the Pentecostals wherever they went...in school...at church etc. This was because we simply rejected the legalistic pov.
Fast forward to senior high school and graduation. My kids went on to higher education, while quite a few of the UPC girls got pregnant outside of marriage by UPC boys.
Had that been my children, the talk would have never died down. But because it is UPC kids ...it's all in the family...it must not be wrong.
And they did not go to the movie theater to do it either.
RandyWayne
06-11-2012, 12:50 PM
I have never seen anyone even making out, much less having sex, and a theater. That isn't to say it didn't happen and I'm just not aware of it, but I doubt it because I always went to the types of movies which were not conducive to doing anything other than paying attention to what was on the screen. :)
I mean seriously, who would want to "make out" while watching Die Hard ("Welcome to the party pal!") or Aliens ("Game over man! Game over!")?? LOL
Who would want to make out while watching the Passion of the Christ.
I have never seen anyone even making out, much less having sex, and a theater. That isn't to say it didn't happen and I'm just not aware of it, but I doubt it because I always went to the types of movies which were not conducive to doing anything other than paying attention to what was on the screen. :)
I mean seriously, who would want to "make out" while watching Die Hard ("Welcome to the party pal!") or Aliens ("Game over man! Game over!")?? LOL
RandyWayne
06-11-2012, 01:50 PM
Who would want to make out while watching the Passion of the Christ.
I did go to see Legends of the Fall on a date and would have MUCH rather been making out then watching Brad Pitt on the screen. (Borrrriiinnngggg!)
HolyFire
06-11-2012, 05:48 PM
tv is a medium it has good and bad points like anything else. TV has made my little 3 year old child a little einstien. We let her watch kids shows that are designed to better there knowledge and social development. I have 3 kids The first 2 was raised with out cable as you say. My oldest was actually behind in school also both of them needed rescourse and speech.
My little 3year old could have a conversation with you at the age of 2 what was the difference? Intellegent kid shows. You forget brother anything can be destructive to a person not just TV . the internet 2. That is the biggest place to get porn and its right at your finger tips. all you have todo is type google then type porn and "WAL-LA" there is naked pictures galore.
tv works the same way You have to see what is comming on. There is also lock outs and passcodes to block channels. You or anyone else with out a tv doesnt make you any more spiritual than those with a t.v
As for your declaring your self a minister with Gifts. arnt we all? I minister i have gifts? should you now comform to my view??
it gets me the upci .. only sinners go to the movies.. i remember we had a women at church go see one of those twilight movies and she posted it on face book. People at church called her a devil worshipper................ Her reply its fictional dont you understand what fictional is. Im not worshipping any of it.
Then the pastor got on there and talked about morals.. Yes Pants facial hair was a issue in my church. there is no one on the platform in such away. I have left and now attend a non denominational trinitarian pentacostal church and I love it. same Spirit same outpours of the Spirit same Gifts... alot of less legalism
I mentioned this earlier, Sesame Street via Netflix is the main show over here.
Arphaxad
06-11-2012, 07:53 PM
I did go to see Legends of the Fall on a date and would have MUCH rather been making out then watching Brad Pitt on the screen. (Borrrriiinnngggg!)
I went to a movie for the sole purpose of making out, it was a lonngggg time ago, "Bound for Glory" I think was the title, starring Dave Carradine as Woody Guthrie. Anyway that movie turned out to be pretty good, and she got mad :girlytantrum 'cause I wanted to watch the movie instead.
:doggyrun
Amanah
06-12-2012, 04:42 AM
Those of you who are "still messed up," please know that you can move on and get hooked up.
You can move past the foolishness of people who took the small things to extremes and revive again the deep and precious things of God in your life.
Remember the first things, the Spirit of God washing and renewing your soul with the righteousness, peace, and joy of the Holy Ghost.
Be transformed by the renewing of your mind, washing your mind with the Word of God and prayer, so you can find the will of God for your life and move on from here.
Don't stay stuck because of human frailty and imperfections in others and in ourselves. Let's move on.
Hebrews 6
Falla39
06-12-2012, 07:50 AM
Those of you who are "still messed up," please know that you can move on and get hooked up.
You can move past the foolishness of people who took the small things to extremes and revive again the deep and precious things of God in your life.
Remember the first things, the Spirit of God washing and renewing your soul with the righteousness, peace, and joy of the Holy Ghost.
Be transformed by the renewing of your mind, washing your mind with the Word of God and prayer, so you can find the will of God for your life and move on from here.
Don't stay stuck because of human frailty and imperfections in others and in ourselves. Let's move on.
Hebrews 6
AMEN , AMANAH!!!:highfive
RandyWayne
06-12-2012, 08:42 AM
Those of you who are "still messed up," please know that you can move on and get hooked up.
You can move past the foolishness of people who took the small things to extremes and revive again the deep and precious things of God in your life.
Remember the first things, the Spirit of God washing and renewing your soul with the righteousness, peace, and joy of the Holy Ghost.
Be transformed by the renewing of your mind, washing your mind with the Word of God and prayer, so you can find the will of God for your life and move on from here.
Don't stay stuck because of human frailty and imperfections in others and in ourselves. Let's move on.
Hebrews 6
Except your assuming that people who are "messed up" by the church are messed up because of small petty things things and minor disagreements with leadership. In fact, people are usually "messed up" because of deep psychological damage that was done over years. This isn't something that a chorus of "Give it all to Jesus!" will fix. I personally still get the cold sweats (not in a good way) when many specific songs are played during song service and to this day (25+ years later) I make a point of arriving at church (when I actually go) AFTER the singing is done. If I'm by myself I usually give the preacher 5, maybe 10, minutes to say something with substance. If people are shouting and he begins with "....oh and I was GLAD when they said onto ME, let us GO into the HOUSE of the LORD! Haaaa haaa haaaaaa!" -I'm outta there.
(Timmy, please feel free to change word emphasis in that last sentence. :) )
Amanah
06-12-2012, 09:21 AM
there is more than one way to define small
small (smôl)
adj. small·er, small·est
1. Being below the average in size or magnitude.
2. Limited in importance or significance; trivial: a small matter.
3. Limited in degree or scope: small farm operations.
4. Lacking position, influence, or status; minor: "A crowd of small writers had vainly attempted to rival Addison" (Thomas Macaulay).
5. Unpretentious; modest: made a small living; helped the cause in my own small way.
6. Not fully grown; very young.
7. Narrow in outlook; petty: a small mind.
8. Having been belittled; humiliated: Their comments made me feel small.
9. Diluted; weak. Used of alcoholic beverages.
10. Lacking force or volume: a small voice.
AreYouReady?
06-12-2012, 09:54 AM
Except your assuming that people who are "messed up" by the church are messed up because of small petty things things and minor disagreements with leadership. In fact, people are usually "messed up" because of deep psychological damage that was done over years. This isn't something that a chorus of "Give it all to Jesus!" will fix. I personally still get the cold sweats (not in a good way) when many specific songs are played during song service and to this day (25+ years later) I make a point of arriving at church (when I actually go) AFTER the singing is done. If I'm by myself I usually give the preacher 5, maybe 10, minutes to say something with substance. If people are shouting and he begins with "....oh and I was GLAD when they said onto ME, let us GO into the HOUSE of the LORD! Haaaa haaa haaaaaa!" -I'm outta there.
(Timmy, please feel free to change word emphasis in that last sentence. :) )
I thought the RCC were the only ones who terrorized children. I was glad I did not have to go to church but once a week for 45 minutes. :D
RandyWayne
06-12-2012, 10:05 AM
I thought the RCC were the only ones who terrorized children. I was glad I did not have to go to church but once a week for 45 minutes. :D
Oh man, our average song service was 45 minutes (x 3 services per week). LOL
Timmy
06-12-2012, 10:33 AM
Except your assuming that people who are "messed up" by the church are messed up because of small petty things things and minor disagreements with leadership. In fact, people are usually "messed up" because of deep psychological damage that was done over years. This isn't something that a chorus of "Give it all to Jesus!" will fix. I personally still get the cold sweats (not in a good way) when many specific songs are played during song service and to this day (25+ years later) I make a point of arriving at church (when I actually go) AFTER the singing is done. If I'm by myself I usually give the preacher 5, maybe 10, minutes to say something with substance. If people are shouting and he begins with "....oh and I was GLAD when they said onto ME, let us GO into the HOUSE of the LORD! Haaaa haaa haaaaaa!" -I'm outta there.
(Timmy, please feel free to change word emphasis in that last sentence. :) )
Nah, it's fine. :thumbsup
scotty
06-12-2012, 12:14 PM
I went to a movie for the sole purpose of making out, it was a lonngggg time ago, "Bound for Glory" I think was the title, starring Dave Carradine as Woody Guthrie. Anyway that movie turned out to be pretty good, and she got mad :girlytantrum 'cause I wanted to watch the movie instead.
:doggyrun
Ha !! Same thing happened to me. It was the first Star Wars.
She didn't stand a chance.
RandyWayne
06-12-2012, 01:33 PM
Ha !! Same thing happened to me. It was the first Star Wars.
She didn't stand a chance.
Ya, it happened to me too. In my case it was Aliens (the James Cameron one and the last good show in the series, although Prometheus looks promising!). I don't even remember who I took but she hated it.
AreYouReady?
06-12-2012, 01:41 PM
I don't even remember who I took but she hated it.
She hated what? The making out or the movie? :D
RandyWayne
06-12-2012, 02:07 PM
She hated what? The making out or the movie? :D
The movie. :foottap
She wanted to do other things -things that I never wanted to do at a theater (other than during the already mentioned Legends of the Fall). I go the theater to see movies....
AreYouReady?
06-12-2012, 02:14 PM
:D :D :D :D :D
I love to pick on men...in general....they deserve it.:heeheehee
HolyFire
06-12-2012, 02:58 PM
Those of you who are "still messed up," please know that you can move on and get hooked up.
You can move past the foolishness of people who took the small things to extremes and revive again the deep and precious things of God in your life.
Remember the first things, the Spirit of God washing and renewing your soul with the righteousness, peace, and joy of the Holy Ghost.
Be transformed by the renewing of your mind, washing your mind with the Word of God and prayer, so you can find the will of God for your life and move on from here.
Don't stay stuck because of human frailty and imperfections in others and in ourselves. Let's move on.
Hebrews 6
AMEN! :highfive
PastorBobHall
06-16-2012, 08:41 PM
After 24 years I led my family (8 souls) out of the UPC, after we sat down & everyone was able to speak about things - (God called me to start a church).
I feel to share just a few points & hope it isn't too lengthy. We attended in one of the most strict, UPC districts in North America. But, God helped me to obey, give, teach, win many souls, etc. for God & not the minister or UPC. You just don't know how thankful I am to have it instilled within, that it was all for Jesus, even as I saw wrong things in the 'way' it was forced on people. Many standards we once followed, we do not any more. But, to be part of 'that congregation' it was right to obey like them, unto God.
I did not throw away everything I learned after leaving but I studied it all over again to make sure what God wanted. As an independent pastor, with excellent fellowship in 2 organizations, God has blessed us to have more brothers & sisters now. ;-)
Doctrine: God clearly states many things we must obey, no questions asked. But, He also left many things unsaid, on purpose, that tests our love for one another. No minister is permitted to force obedience because God Himself will not do it.
Eg. There is no scripture teaching against alcohol - it is not a sin. But God clearly shows the troubles & problems alcohol causes with many losing control & sinning under its influence. Conclusion: we abstain completely. (I was 27 when I came to God - so I enjoyed booze a lot B.C.)
Eg. Television cannot be found to be a sin BUT many things on it would be sinful to watch. Can you control yourself? We watch dvd movies only but that's me.
Principles guide us in the 'gray' areas as we have learned to be mindful that Father Jesus is watching us at all times. The problem with being a member of a ministerial fellowship like the UPC (remember, church members were not UPC - only the ministers) is that the leaders enforce many standards calling them sins if disobeyed, when they are not, just to please the organization standards. (Hb.13:17 leaders are not permitted to abuse their position. we are to obey & submit to things righteous & holy only)
Do not be discouraged! Understanding is a powerful force in the Holy Ghost as we learn the meaning of God's word including the principles. Many UPC ministers abusing people, are blind to the spiritual secrets in love. They are to be the servant of the body, preach Christ & not preach about themselves begging for money or attention, - God's Spirit is truly dividing in the last days. Don't let any bitterness destroy you when you have opportunity to rise above the past. Sentimental, 24 years can provide a lot but that is carnal. Don't look back .. life up your heads & look up! Pray through & acknowledge the one true God, Jesus Christ, who we experienced misrepresented by ministers for our testing.
God Bless everyone that still has a desire to make it. Pray for each other.
Bro.Hall
P.S. Jesus is coming real soon - want to know when? Eph.4:11-13 His ministry is for edifying the body .. for how long? Until we all come into the unity of the faith. You are end time saints being prodded & tugged by God to lead you to unity. Keep praying & God will come through.
AreYouReady?
06-16-2012, 10:20 PM
Good testimony Bro. Hall. Thank you for sharing with us.
After 24 years I led my family (8 souls) out of the UPC, after we sat down & everyone was able to speak about things - (God called me to start a church).
I feel to share just a few points & hope it isn't too lengthy. We attended in one of the most strict, UPC districts in North America. But, God helped me to obey, give, teach, win many souls, etc. for God & not the minister or UPC. You just don't know how thankful I am to have it instilled within, that it was all for Jesus, even as I saw wrong things in the 'way' it was forced on people. Many standards we once followed, we do not any more. But, to be part of 'that congregation' it was right to obey like them, unto God.
I did not throw away everything I learned after leaving but I studied it all over again to make sure what God wanted. As an independent pastor, with excellent fellowship in 2 organizations, God has blessed us to have more brothers & sisters now. ;-)
Doctrine: God clearly states many things we must obey, no questions asked. But, He also left many things unsaid, on purpose, that tests our love for one another. No minister is permitted to force obedience because God Himself will not do it.
Eg. There is no scripture teaching against alcohol - it is not a sin. But God clearly shows the troubles & problems alcohol causes with many losing control & sinning under its influence. Conclusion: we abstain completely. (I was 27 when I came to God - so I enjoyed booze a lot B.C.)
Eg. Television cannot be found to be a sin BUT many things on it would be sinful to watch. Can you control yourself? We watch dvd movies only but that's me.
Principles guide us in the 'gray' areas as we have learned to be mindful that Father Jesus is watching us at all times. The problem with being a member of a ministerial fellowship like the UPC (remember, church members were not UPC - only the ministers) is that the leaders enforce many standards calling them sins if disobeyed, when they are not, just to please the organization standards. (Hb.13:17 leaders are not permitted to abuse their position. we are to obey & submit to things righteous & holy only)
Do not be discouraged! Understanding is a powerful force in the Holy Ghost as we learn the meaning of God's word including the principles. Many UPC ministers abusing people, are blind to the spiritual secrets in love. They are to be the servant of the body, preach Christ & not preach about themselves begging for money or attention, - God's Spirit is truly dividing in the last days. Don't let any bitterness destroy you when you have opportunity to rise above the past. Sentimental, 24 years can provide a lot but that is carnal. Don't look back .. life up your heads & look up! Pray through & acknowledge the one true God, Jesus Christ, who we experienced misrepresented by ministers for our testing.
God Bless everyone that still has a desire to make it. Pray for each other.
Bro.Hall
P.S. Jesus is coming real soon - want to know when? Eph.4:11-13 His ministry is for edifying the body .. for how long? Until we all come into the unity of the faith. You are end time saints being prodded & tugged by God to lead you to unity. Keep praying & God will come through.
Thanks for this excellent post. Good words. Is the church you pastor BAC ?
I would love to speak with you sometime.
After 24 years I led my family (8 souls) out of the UPC, after we sat down & everyone was able to speak about things - (God called me to start a church).
I feel to share just a few points & hope it isn't too lengthy. We attended in one of the most strict, UPC districts in North America. But, God helped me to obey, give, teach, win many souls, etc. for God & not the minister or UPC. You just don't know how thankful I am to have it instilled within, that it was all for Jesus, even as I saw wrong things in the 'way' it was forced on people. Many standards we once followed, we do not any more. But, to be part of 'that congregation' it was right to obey like them, unto God.
I did not throw away everything I learned after leaving but I studied it all over again to make sure what God wanted. As an independent pastor, with excellent fellowship in 2 organizations, God has blessed us to have more brothers & sisters now. ;-)
Doctrine: God clearly states many things we must obey, no questions asked. But, He also left many things unsaid, on purpose, that tests our love for one another. No minister is permitted to force obedience because God Himself will not do it.
Eg. There is no scripture teaching against alcohol - it is not a sin. But God clearly shows the troubles & problems alcohol causes with many losing control & sinning under its influence. Conclusion: we abstain completely. (I was 27 when I came to God - so I enjoyed booze a lot B.C.)
Eg. Television cannot be found to be a sin BUT many things on it would be sinful to watch. Can you control yourself? We watch dvd movies only but that's me.
Principles guide us in the 'gray' areas as we have learned to be mindful that Father Jesus is watching us at all times. The problem with being a member of a ministerial fellowship like the UPC (remember, church members were not UPC - only the ministers) is that the leaders enforce many standards calling them sins if disobeyed, when they are not, just to please the organization standards. (Hb.13:17 leaders are not permitted to abuse their position. we are to obey & submit to things righteous & holy only)
Do not be discouraged! Understanding is a powerful force in the Holy Ghost as we learn the meaning of God's word including the principles. Many UPC ministers abusing people, are blind to the spiritual secrets in love. They are to be the servant of the body, preach Christ & not preach about themselves begging for money or attention, - God's Spirit is truly dividing in the last days. Don't let any bitterness destroy you when you have opportunity to rise above the past. Sentimental, 24 years can provide a lot but that is carnal. Don't look back .. life up your heads & look up! Pray through & acknowledge the one true God, Jesus Christ, who we experienced misrepresented by ministers for our testing.
God Bless everyone that still has a desire to make it. Pray for each other.
Bro.Hall
P.S. Jesus is coming real soon - want to know when? Eph.4:11-13 His ministry is for edifying the body .. for how long? Until we all come into the unity of the faith. You are end time saints being prodded & tugged by God to lead you to unity. Keep praying & God will come through.
PastorBobHall
06-17-2012, 09:38 AM
Something to think about:
- God alone is Holy. (Holy One)
- His name is 'Holy' Psa.111:9 He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name.
- we are commanded to obey & become 'righteous'
What are holiness standards? There truly are none because God makes the final decision to anoint with His Spirit 'accepting' obedience on our part. This is why there are so many differences culturally, in the church globally, yet God is working & blessing in such a variety of places.
Scripture: Acts 15 what a perfect example of cultural differences (Jews vs. Greeks) & God shows to leave each other alone in the differences. James concludes, Stop criticizing or forcing others to be like you, whomsoever God loves & accepts, we are to love & accept.
These types of differences are for testing our obedience (in the local church) & test our love towards other congregations. When we obey correctly & have the right spirit of love, God accepts us 'making us holy unto the Lord''.
Conclusion:.
Ministers are to create the best spiritual environment possible & instruction to live righteous - the saints obey. God makes us holy - not rules or people forcing us. Free will is behind it all - it has always been about free will & many leaders were not taught or did not learn 'how' to pastor with love respecting free will, so they resort to carnal 'rules & bad spirits''. Strive to prove obedient with God's love. Many can do this in a UPC church even in spite of abusive leaders.
If we are called to be holy as He is holy, (1Pet.1:15-16) & to die daily, maybe a way to describe 'how' does a person become holy is this way
Sorry if this got too lengthy. So many problems are brought up in this post & the LORD has led us into wonderful peace & love to help many who suffered these things.
God, loves you,
Bro. Hall
BAC. :heeheehee
Something to think about:
- God alone is Holy. (Holy One)
- His name is 'Holy' Psa.111:9 He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name.
- we are commanded to obey & become 'righteous'
What are holiness standards? There truly are none because God makes the final decision to anoint with His Spirit 'accepting' obedience on our part. This is why there are so many differences culturally, in the church globally, yet God is working & blessing in such a variety of places.
Scripture: Acts 15 what a perfect example of cultural differences (Jews vs. Greeks) & God shows to leave each other alone in the differences. James concludes, Stop criticizing or forcing others to be like you, whomsoever God loves & accepts, we are to love & accept.
These types of differences are for testing our obedience (in the local church) & test our love towards other congregations. When we obey correctly & have the right spirit of love, God accepts us 'making us holy unto the Lord''.
Conclusion:.
Ministers are to create the best spiritual environment possible & instruction to live righteous - the saints obey. God makes us holy - not rules or people forcing us. Free will is behind it all - it has always been about free will & many leaders were not taught or did not learn 'how' to pastor with love respecting free will, so they resort to carnal 'rules & bad spirits''. Strive to prove obedient with God's love. Many can do this in a UPC church even in spite of abusive leaders.
If we are called to be holy as He is holy, (1Pet.1:15-16) & to die daily, maybe a way to describe 'how' does a person become holy is this way
Sorry if this got too lengthy. So many problems are brought up in this post & the LORD has led us into wonderful peace & love to help many who suffered these things.
God, loves you,
Bro. Hall
BAC. :heeheehee
Thank You for all the kind words. Said very well. God is still working in me and sorting things out.
PastorBobHall
06-19-2012, 10:09 AM
Someone asked me where I am from & what standards I am against, My church life has been in the Western Canadian District, I live in Alberta.
What about standards? The answer is 'none' - I am not against any. God wants to see obedience in us, no matter what the standard. In the garden they had one rule & no one has ever had to abide by that standard since - don't eat from a certain tree. The fruit didn't hurt them - disobeying God was the sin.
There are many wonderful churches all over the world & many do a few things differently, follow rules or standards other places may not. The exercise for our Godliness is to be obedient where we attend. That can show a great fear when some people avoid the structure of church God established because they 'don't agree with the pastor's standards'. Looks like the wolves influencing some sheep to cut themselves out of the flock.
Obedience is the key & the ministry & church body must have standards to represent Christ. The error comes when a standard is called a sin when it is not, causing criticism of other churches & abuse of authority from controlling people. Well, it causes a lot of trouble.
What must I do to be saved? Find a truth church to get the help in staying prayed through & full of the Holy Ghost. Whatever standards they have, be mature enough to understand that God is watching for obedience in all things. There are many times God calls upon us to 'obey Him' to help reach the lost, work a miracle through us, speak through us, etc. He cannot use & save people who do not learn to be obedient to the Spirit.
Rom.8:14 For as many as are led by the spirit of God, they are the sons of God. If you are not obedient to Him - you won't follow Him - you will be lost.
There are 2 problems: the treatment we receive from abusive leaders & the obedience unto God in standards & giving. Don't let the one destroy the other.
It would be my greatest joy to help people who have been hurt by the confusion & frustration of dealing with standards, to understand them better, and see them dig in & get full of God! Salvation is smooth, easy, thrilling, exciting, when you live in God's will for your life. You deserve it & I encourage everyone I speak with, to get the victory over the past & live victorious in the present. God has shown me a way to destroy those bad memories once & for all.
God bless
Pastor Hall
So you were in a church, enjoying the worship and presence of God, but you disagreed with the "standards".
Then you leave that church, have not been to church since, feel that God is now silent and isn't speaking to you.
I guess I am just the only crazy one who thinks that maybe, just maybe, the answer to your problem is to go back to church and talk to your Pastor. Let him know you don't agree with standards, but you would rather be in church feeling God than out of church. I know that is just insane advice for this forum since the MO of most here is to do nothing but trash the UPC and traditional OP churches, but you sounded like you were happier when you were in church. So go back.
Or just stay out of church and assume it's ok to not go to church, ok to have bitter feelings about the UPC and those associated withit and ok to just make up your own religion and beliefs on the fly as long as you have others who will say it's ok.
My husband says I need to come here and give responses... It isn't just stds., there is more than that. I do not believe God was silent to punish me, and IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BITTERNESS, PEOPLE ARE NOT ALWAYS LEAVING BECAUSE OF THAT! I apologize, I should have clarified more in my first post...
1) I am not saying its my own issues and I am seeking God with humility if I am the problem... but one of my issues is every service is usually that you aren't enough for God, do more, give more, worship more, attend more, and please don't quote and take that the wrong way, I seek God for what His will is for me and worship Him, but they push and push like even your best isn't enough. And the style, the shouting which I guess is the excitement for God, I am excited too but not expressive much and even in my marriage my husband wishes I would show more emotion/expression... which I am working on, but after 10 yrs I am still uncomfortable with how preachers have to yelll so much... I receive more from others teachings and accept the rebuke even without the yelling.... Honestly I was uncomfortable when I went to a baseball game and everyone was standing, cheering, etc and I wasn't... so maybe it is me. At church I would lift my hands in worship and my heart be full of adoration and I'd love to worship that way but when the preacher acts like something is wrong with you for not shouting enough or loud enough or jumping enough... I leave church feeling so bad as a christian, and times I would be obedient to the pastor and jump, he'd say jump for joy, jump for your victory... sorry I did not change from that...
This weekend we listened to a webcast live and the preacher would say things like, "OH I wish I had someone to preach to... " and in my spirit that felt awful. (someone please tell me what they are doing... the minister isn't happy with the lack of feedback clapping and amening?) I am absorbing all he is saying... I am not an expressive person to clap and amen... but if I don't then I am not measuring up to be the christian I should be... do you know what I mean? I hope I worded it correctly...
2) I was hungering for so much more. Even now my husband says we get fed by the other online churches and UPCI is more for staying in doctrine...
We just came across MarsHill.com with Mike Driscoll and we have grown so much in our daily walks with God... I said before I loved listening to Charles Stanley teach... John MacArthur, and many more... not for doctrine but christian living... I don't have 'itchy ears", the messages they give rebuke also but they do it as a gentle shepherd not how I feel in UPCI being beaten with the rod... that is just how I feel and if I am too sensitive then pray God helps me to not receive it that way.
3) I also have issues about tithing... I tithed and gave beyond my means. I believed the Bible, give and it will be given unto you.... so many messages on giving sacrificially and pledges... while I myself have a medical bill come up or car repair, can't pay for it and use my credit card... and I am a very frugal person, I spend money wisely. UPCI prides on being like the early church yet when it comes to money they don't follow how they sold their possessions and had all in common. I believe God meant for us to take care of each other not some have fancy houses, cars, Iphones, yet another can't pay their heat bill. This is NOT out of bitterness I am just re reading the bible with fresh eyes and questions come up such as that... Even when they tithed in the O.T. if they were hungry on their journey they could eat their tithe. And remember when David ate of the bread that was for the priests... and when Jesus picked the grain on the sabbath... religious people would be so legalistic about that. You can kill the spirit with the letter of the law, I am not saying all of this very elequently I am sure someone else on here can reiterate on it that knows what I am meaning. My point is church is so hung up on receiving tithes and giving yet they aren't turning around tending to the flock in their needs, distributing to the saints as I see Jesus teaches in the Bible.
4) When I stopped going to church I started reading the bible with fresh eyes and I read it in its context to the chapter and culture and wish church would do that too... In Romans I read where the emphasis was to walk in love and grace and not cause another to stumble... God showed me if I don't have a problem going to the beach (I love the ocean) and dress modestly, I can go for myself but if I bring my husband and cause him to lust after the girls in skimpy bikinis then I am sinning. (MY church preaches on NO mixed bathing). I adore looking at God's creation the vast open ocean and meditate on Him there. There are alot of rules like a strict parent to protect us, I get it, but sometimes it can get a bit much like you can't have your own personal relationship and guidance with Jesus...
Does that explain? Its not just stds, its not bitterness, its alot... and some of it may be my own issues to work out...
thank you to everyone praying for us and giving supportive feedback, I really do appreciate it... God has brought me to a new place and I am seeking Him for discernment, truth, protection from error... if I am wrong I want Him to reveal error and deception in me.
corvet786c
06-19-2012, 11:01 AM
My husband says I need to come here and give responses... It isn't just stds., there is more than that. I do not believe God was silent to punish me, and IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BITTERNESS, PEOPLE ARE NOT ALWAYS LEAVING BECAUSE OF THAT! I apologize, I should have clarified more in my first post...
1) I am not saying its my own issues and I am seeking God with humility if I am the problem... but one of my issues is every service is usually that you aren't enough for God, do more, give more, worship more, attend more, and please don't quote and take that the wrong way, I seek God for what His will is for me and worship Him, but they push and push like even your best isn't enough. And the style, the shouting which I guess is the excitement for God, I am excited too but not expressive much and even in my marriage my husband wishes I would show more emotion/expression... which I am working on, but after 10 yrs I am still uncomfortable with how preachers have to yelll so much... I receive more from others teachings and accept the rebuke even without the yelling.... Honestly I was uncomfortable when I went to a baseball game and everyone was standing, cheering, etc and I wasn't... so maybe it is me. At church I would lift my hands in worship and my heart be full of adoration and I'd love to worship that way but when the preacher acts like something is wrong with you for not shouting enough or loud enough or jumping enough... I leave church feeling so bad as a christian, and times I would be obedient to the pastor and jump, he'd say jump for joy, jump for your victory... sorry I did not change from that...
This weekend we listened to a webcast live and the preacher would say things like, "OH I wish I had someone to preach to... " and in my spirit that felt awful. (someone please tell me what they are doing... the minister isn't happy with the lack of feedback clapping and amening?) I am absorbing all he is saying... I am not an expressive person to clap and amen... but if I don't then I am not measuring up to be the christian I should be... do you know what I mean? I hope I worded it correctly...
2) I was hungering for so much more. Even now my husband says we get fed by the other online churches and UPCI is more for staying in doctrine...
We just came across MarsHill.com with Mike Driscoll and we have grown so much in our daily walks with God... I said before I loved listening to Charles Stanley teach... John MacArthur, and many more... not for doctrine but christian living... I don't have 'itchy ears", the messages they give rebuke also but they do it as a gentle shepherd not how I feel in UPCI being beaten with the rod... that is just how I feel and if I am too sensitive then pray God helps me to not receive it that way.
3) I also have issues about tithing... I tithed and gave beyond my means. I believed the Bible, give and it will be given unto you.... so many messages on giving sacrificially and pledges... while I myself have a medical bill come up or car repair, can't pay for it and use my credit card... and I am a very frugal person, I spend money wisely. UPCI prides on being like the early church yet when it comes to money they don't follow how they sold their possessions and had all in common. I believe God meant for us to take care of each other not some have fancy houses, cars, Iphones, yet another can't pay their heat bill. This is NOT out of bitterness I am just re reading the bible with fresh eyes and questions come up such as that... Even when they tithed in the O.T. if they were hungry on their journey they could eat their tithe. And remember when David ate of the bread that was for the priests... and when Jesus picked the grain on the sabbath... religious people would be so legalistic about that. You can kill the spirit with the letter of the law, I am not saying all of this very elequently I am sure someone else on here can reiterate on it that knows what I am meaning. My point is church is so hung up on receiving tithes and giving yet they aren't turning around tending to the flock in their needs, distributing to the saints as I see Jesus teaches in the Bible.
4) When I stopped going to church I started reading the bible with fresh eyes and I read it in its context to the chapter and culture and wish church would do that too... In Romans I read where the emphasis was to walk in love and grace and not cause another to stumble... God showed me if I don't have a problem going to the beach (I love the ocean) and dress modestly, I can go for myself but if I bring my husband and cause him to lust after the girls in skimpy bikinis then I am sinning. (MY church preaches on NO mixed bathing). I adore looking at God's creation the vast open ocean and meditate on Him there. There are alot of rules like a strict parent to protect us, I get it, but sometimes it can get a bit much like you can't have your own personal relationship and guidance with Jesus...
Does that explain? Its not just stds, its not bitterness, its alot... and some of it may be my own issues to work out...
thank you to everyone praying for us and giving supportive feedback, I really do appreciate it... God has brought me to a new place and I am seeking Him for discernment, truth, protection from error... if I am wrong I want Him to reveal error and deception in me.
WOW I would like to get others responses to this as well?
I said Mike Driscoll it should be Mark Driscoll..
Margies3
06-19-2012, 03:17 PM
Krt, I think you expressed yourself VERY well. And whether we agree or not, we need to listen. Because you do make some very valid points that should be considered (not saying I disagree, by the way!)
HolyFire
06-19-2012, 09:44 PM
You are 100% right Krt. The Word of God divides soul and human spirit. When ministry preaches for response (flesh) and preaches to the soul (whats REALLY in the balance) you get carnality - as it produces little foundation. But when preached Word reaches a human spirit you get FAITH and those seeds of the Word are planted on good ground!
Case in point (bad example) - Hell/repent message that only reaches soul produces fear of hell. A truly anointed message on same subject reaching the human spirit produces conviction!
I ask God nearly everyday in prayer that when I pray for someone, preach, teach, witness, share a story, etc., to let it minister to their spirit - to free their spirit from all chains and deception, to loose the love of Christ and break down all barriers between them.
There's a famine for teaching in AP churches, that's why many are the way they are. Preachers push for loyalty to an ideal instead of anchoring you to Him.
Except your assuming that people who are "messed up" by the church are messed up because of small petty things things and minor disagreements with leadership. In fact, people are usually "messed up" because of deep psychological damage that was done over years. This isn't something that a chorus of "Give it all to Jesus!" will fix. I personally still get the cold sweats (not in a good way) when many specific songs are played during song service and to this day (25+ years later) I make a point of arriving at church (when I actually go) AFTER the singing is done. If I'm by myself I usually give the preacher 5, maybe 10, minutes to say something with substance. If people are shouting and he begins with "....oh and I was GLAD when they said onto ME, let us GO into the HOUSE of the LORD! Haaaa haaa haaaaaa!" -I'm outta there.
(Timmy, please feel free to change word emphasis in that last sentence. :) )
I appreciate what you wrote here, RW. I went to church here a number of months back....it was a pretty liberal church and wouldn't you know, I went by accident on "Pentecost Sunday". I was so stressed out being there that when I left, my arms and shoulders and back ached for hours afterward. (No exaggeration.) This was not a Pentecostal church, it was just a church where I thought I would not be reminded of all that. But the fact it was Pentecost Sunday and they read Acts 2 and all that from the KJV.....it was like torture. Like salt rubbed into a deep wound. When you say "deep psychological damage done over the course of years" I can say, yes, definitely. I don't know that I will ever feel normal. I don't even know what normal is. I just tell myself this is the new normal for me. Some days, I grieve deeply over it although those days come father and farther between. It is incredibly annoying when I try to express that and the people outside the church are clueless (making me feel alienated) and the people in it or around it minimize it drastically.
I thought the RCC were the only ones who terrorized children. I was glad I did not have to go to church but once a week for 45 minutes. :D
I never felt terrorized in the RCC as a child. Perspectives are a funny thing.
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