I never understood this story

[houston]

I Kings 13

And, behold, there came a man of God out of Judah by the word of the LORD unto Bethel: and Jeroboam stood by the altar to burn incense.

2And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.

3And he gave a sign the same day, saying, This is the sign which the LORD hath spoken; Behold, the altar shall be rent, and the ashes that are upon it shall be poured out.

4And it came to pass, when king Jeroboam heard the saying of the man of God, which had cried against the altar in Bethel, that he put forth his hand from the altar, saying, Lay hold on him. And his hand, which he put forth against him, dried up, so that he could not pull it in again to him.

5The altar also was rent, and the ashes poured out from the altar, according to the sign which the man of God had given by the word of the LORD.

6And the king answered and said unto the man of God, Intreat now the face of the LORD thy God, and pray for me, that my hand may be restored me again. And the man of God besought the LORD, and the king's hand was restored him again, and became as it was before.

7And the king said unto the man of God, Come home with me, and refresh thyself, and I will give thee a reward.

8And the man of God said unto the king, If thou wilt give me half thine house, I will not go in with thee, neither will I eat bread nor drink water in this place:

9For so was it charged me by the word of the LORD, saying, Eat no bread, nor drink water, nor turn again by the same way that thou camest.

10So he went another way, and returned not by the way that he came to Bethel.

11Now there dwelt an old prophet in Bethel; and his sons came and told him all the works that the man of God had done that day in Bethel: the words which he had spoken unto the king, them they told also to their father.

12And their father said unto them, What way went he? For his sons had seen what way the man of God went, which came from Judah.

13And he said unto his sons, Saddle me the ass. So they saddled him the ass: and he rode thereon,

14And went after the man of God, and found him sitting under an oak: and he said unto him, Art thou the man of God that camest from Judah? And he said, I am.

15Then he said unto him, Come home with me, and eat bread.

16And he said, I may not return with thee, nor go in with thee: neither will I eat bread nor drink water with thee in this place:

17For it was said to me by the word of the LORD, Thou shalt eat no bread nor drink water there, nor turn again to go by the way that thou camest.

18He said unto him, I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the LORD, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him.

19So he went back with him, and did eat bread in his house, and drank water.

20And it came to pass, as they sat at the table, that the word of the LORD came unto the prophet that brought him back:

21And he cried unto the man of God that came from Judah, saying, Thus saith the LORD, Forasmuch as thou hast disobeyed the mouth of the LORD, and hast not kept the commandment which the LORD thy God commanded thee,

22But camest back, and hast eaten bread and drunk water in the place, of the which the Lord did say to thee, Eat no bread, and drink no water; thy carcase shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers.

23And it came to pass, after he had eaten bread, and after he had drunk, that he saddled for him the ass, to wit, for the prophet whom he had brought back.

24And when he was gone, a lion met him by the way, and slew him: and his carcase was cast in the way, and the ass stood by it, the lion also stood by the carcase.

25And, behold, men passed by, and saw the carcase cast in the way, and the lion standing by the carcase: and they came and told it in the city where the old prophet dwelt.

26And when the prophet that brought him back from the way heard thereof, he said, It is the man of God, who was disobedient unto the word of the LORD: therefore the LORD hath delivered him unto the lion, which hath torn him, and slain him, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake unto him.

27And he spake to his sons, saying, Saddle me the ass. And they saddled him.

28And he went and found his carcase cast in the way, and the ass and the lion standing by the carcase: the lion had not eaten the carcase, nor torn the ass.

29And the prophet took up the carcase of the man of God, and laid it upon the ass, and brought it back: and the old prophet came to the city, to mourn and to bury him.

30And he laid his carcase in his own grave; and they mourned over him, saying, Alas, my brother!

31And it came to pass, after he had buried him, that he spake to his sons, saying, When I am dead, then bury me in the sepulchre wherein the man of God is buried; lay my bones beside his bones:

32For the saying which he cried by the word of the LORD against the altar in Bethel, and against all the houses of the high places which are in the cities of Samaria, shall surely come to pass.

33After this thing Jeroboam returned not from his evil way, but made again of the lowest of the people priests of the high places: whosoever would, he consecrated him, and he became one of the priests of the high places.

34And this thing became sin unto the house of Jeroboam, even to cut it off, and to destroy it from off the face of the earth.

[Falla39]

Houston,
Perhaps this link will give you a little insight to this story.

http://www.crivoice.org/biblestudy/bbkings9.html

Falla39

[bbyrd009]

Hi, Falla! Ty, that did help. It is easy to focus on the prophets "plight" here, and get all 'plexed about "well, what did he do wrong; what about the other prophet lying to him; which one, or both, might be going to hell over this, lol, when your link points out that, in essence, you miss the probable reasoning here by doing this.

This is another indicator to me that our common Christian perceptions about life and death, Heaven and hell, are just not very accurate.

So "did the prophet go to hell," etc. is just irrelevant questioning; but why present the story in such a convoluted way? Why add the contradiction of a prophet of God trying to do the right thing and dying--for a message to someone obviously lost, who was not going to heed it, or a later audience who might only barely understand it? So the commentary leaves as many Qs as it answers, to me.

[mfblume]

I believe it is a lesson on awareness of false prophets and what makes us prey for them.

The younger man stood his ground when the king offered him what surely would have been a more luxurious feast than the bread and water the older false prophet gave him. But the king's offer was easy to resist after hearing God tell you to not eat. The Older false prophet's words were embedded with alleged instruction from GOD. He claimed GOD told him the young man could eat.

Notice that when the young man was located by the older prophet he was sitting under an oak, tired. He was in his weakness. He was hungry. Vulnerable. These weaknesses in our flesh make temptation more easy to succumb to.

False prophets are successful because they appeal to our fleshliness. Our lusts for prosperity, blessings and reputation to fulfill our carnal wants are all merchandized by the false prophet who knows we all have these temptations. Their goal, of course is to make money from us, so they know if they tickle our ears with good things our flesh wants to hear we will want to hear more and more. They will never turn us towards God, as a true prophet would, for we would then know we do not need these encouraging "fixes" every now and then when we have a craving. We will be able to go to GOD for He is with us all the time. So they WANT you to come to them.

If we would rid our hearts of its lusts and cravings, and deny ourselves, we would not fall prey to the false prophets.

The young man OBEYED TRUTH -- at first -- but lacked something that would have kept him safe from the false prophet as well. LOVE FOR TRUTH.

Job 23:12 KJV Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food.


2 Thess 2 says those who do not have a LOVE FOR TRUTH have deceivableness of unrighteousness in them. They have an inherent deceit in their hearts. They are prey for the false prophet.

A love for truth is what David learned to have. HE DELIGHTED to know God's ways.

When His Word is a have-to and a must to us, without being a THING TO BE DESIRED, our times of vulnerability when the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak will find us succumb to the false prophet who takes advantage of the lusts of our hearts.

[mfblume]

I saw that idea in John Bevere's book, THUS SAITH THE LORD. Awesome book about false prophets and how to not fall to them!

[mfblume]

The idea is that the pathway the false prophet caused the young man to take was a path of COMFORT. True prophets do not always speak of blessings. Jesus told Peter his youth saw him go where he pleased and clothe himself, but he would be taken where he did not want to go and be clothed by others, signifying what death he should die! Paul was told if he goes to Jerusalem he would be jailed.

But the vulnerability of the young prophet made the tempting words too appealing.

And the kicker is that AFTER the young man disobeyed and went to the old man's home and ate, the old prophet prophesied A TRUE WORD OF GOD! One might question that. But the fact remains that false prophets MIGHT PROPHESY TRUTH from the Lord. Jesus said those whom he did not know and who would not enter the Kingdom would appeal to prophecies, miracles and deliverances in Jesus' name for their qualifications to enter the kingdom. But they were lost.

Paul even told the Corinthians that they came behind in no genuine gift of the Spirit (1 Cor 1:7), but they were contentious and divisive and striving and envious, and they who do such things shall not enter the KINGDOM.

We all know that false prophets are exposed when they prophesy what does not come to pass. But Deut 13 says that if a prophet foretells something and IT DOES COME TO PASS, he still might be a false prophet. The text says that if he gets you to go to OTHER GODS, then GOD IS TESTING YOU to see if you love Him with all your heart. That prophet is false because he gets you to go to other gods.

Gods today are anything that you worship more than the true God. Lusts in our hearts is called idolatry

Colossians 3:5 KJV Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:


Balaam died a soothsayer (Josh 13:22), but was an actual prophet who could not curse Israel but spoke a promise of the Messiah (Numbers 22-24)!

So, the older prophet prophesying something correct should not confuse us. Giving true prophecies do not mean one is right with God.

[Falla39]

That's why it is important to have spiritual discernment!

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1John 4:1

Having the Word IN us and the Holy Ghost to give discernment is of the utmost importance.

Falla39

[scotty]

Maybe its a lesson to listen to God instead of the "man of God".

[mfblume]

Maybe its a lesson to listen to God instead of the "man of God".

Well, God DOES use prophets, too. That means He wants us to hear them. But it is the FALSE ones we must learn to not hear.

[mfblume]

But it definitely tells us to not put our lock, stock and barrel into just any MAN OF GOD, as we would God, Himself.

[peyt07]

Maybe its a lesson to listen to God instead of the "man of God".

No, probably not the lesson.

[scotty]

But it definitely tells us to not put our lock, stock and barrel into just any MAN OF GOD, as we would God, Himself.

Exactly. I know thats what is always said around here. Follow God and not man. What would have been the prophets correct response I wonder ? Ask God to verify the false prophets statement ?

No, probably not the lesson.

Thats it ? Thats all you got ?

This is a "discussion" forum, please discuss.

[Dordrecht]

Maybe its a lesson to listen to God instead of the "man of God".

Good quote!

[Jay]

But it definitely tells us to not put our lock, stock and barrel into just any MAN OF GOD, as we would God, Himself.


I am slightly jealous because you inside of three posts removed all of the words from my mouth and anything that I say will be a poor echo of your eloquence.

I would say that there is also a warning to ministers to know the will and Word of God for themselves and not rely on others who may have good intentions, but not truly know the will of God for them. There have been many tragedies because a minister did not listen to the voice of God for himself.

The lesson is that we should be careful not to listen to every person who claims to have a word from the Lord for us. Especially if it contradicts what you know that the Lord has already told us to do.

[mfblume]

Exactly. I know thats what is always said around here. Follow God and not man. What would have been the prophets correct response I wonder ? Ask God to verify the false prophets statement ?


Perhaps just rebuke him and go on.

[houston]

Ok, I'd understand if it said that he was a false prophet. What we do read is that he is a PROPHET... and after he deceives the guy, he prophesies through the Spirit of God. That's my hang up.

[mfblume]

Ok, I'd understand if it said that he was a false prophet. What we do read is that he is a PROPHET... and after he deceives the guy, he prophesies through the Spirit of God. That's my hang up.

I addressed that with my opinion already. Post 6.

[houston]

I addressed that with my opinion already. Post 6.

Yeah, guess you did. Anything with more than 3 sentences gives me anxiety, so I usually overlook it.

[Jay]

Perhaps just rebuke him and go on.

If I may disagree with you for a moment, I would rather think that he should have graciously refused the offer and returned to his own home. He simply could explain that he must obey what he knew that the Lord had commanded of him.

I believe that he made a mistake in sitting down and resting when he should have continued on his journey. Further, the old prophet claimed to have been in contact with an angel while the young prophet had heard straight from God. This should have indicated to the young prophet that he should continue on his way.

[mfblume]

with you for a moment, I would rather think that he should have graciously refused the offer and returned to his own home. He simply could explain that he must obey what he knew that the Lord had commanded of him.

I believe that he made a mistake in sitting down and resting when he should have continued on his journey. Further, the old prophet claimed to have been in contact with an angel while the young prophet had heard straight from God. This should have indicated to the young prophet that he should continue on his way.

Amen. Good words.

[mfblume]

Yeah, guess you did. Anything with more than 3 sentences gives me anxiety, so I usually overlook it.

Reading the bible from front to back must really be an act of self denial, eh? :D

[DaveC519]

The lesson is that we should be careful not to listen to every person who claims to have a word from the Lord for us. Especially if it contradicts what you know that the Lord has already told us to do.
:thumbsup EVERY spirit must be tried, including the ones we think are good. (1Jn 4:1)


Ok, I'd understand if it said that he was a false prophet. What we do read is that he is a PROPHET... and after he deceives the guy, he prophesies through the Spirit of God. That's my hang up.
God himself once commissioned a spirit to go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouths of Ahab’s prophets to deceive Ahab (1Kings 22:22-23), so it is not inconsistent with God’s character to send a test like this to the young prophet through the old prophet. The old prophet really was a prophet of God, and God really instructed him to deceive the young prophet.

And the lesson for us?

“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” (Gal 1:8)

[Timmy]

:thumbsup EVERY spirit must be tried, including the ones we think are good. (1Jn 4:1)



God himself once commissioned a spirit to go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouths of Ahab’s prophets to deceive Ahab (1Kings 22:22-23), so it is not inconsistent with God’s character to send a test like this to the young prophet through the old prophet. The old prophet really was a prophet of God, and God really instructed him to deceive the young prophet.

And the lesson for us?

“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” (Gal 1:8)




OK, so, like, if God tells you something directly, and then tells someone else to tell you something else, just to test you, you're supposed to follow the first message from God and reject the other message from God?

:hmmm

[Timmy]

Oh, but sometimes when God tells you something, through someone else, you have to obey it, even if it is contrary to previous messages (like, say, commandments).

1 Kings 20:35-36

35 And a certain man of the sons of the prophets said unto his neighbour in the word of the LORD, Smite me, I pray thee. And the man refused to smite him.

36 Then said he unto him, Because thou hast not obeyed the voice of the LORD, behold, as soon as thou art departed from me, a lion shall slay thee. And as soon as he was departed from him, a lion found him, and slew him.

[mfblume]

OK, so, like, if God tells you something directly, and then tells someone else to tell you something else, just to test you, you're supposed to follow the first message from God and reject the other message from God?

:hmmm

Yeah, read Deut 13 to understand why.

[Jay]

[FONT=Verdana]God himself once commissioned a spirit to go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouths of Ahab’s prophets to deceive Ahab (1Kings 22:22-23), so it is not inconsistent with God’s character to send a test like this to the young prophet through the old prophet. The old prophet really was a prophet of God, and God really instructed him to deceive the young prophet.[/QUOTE]



I agree with part of your statement, with the exception of God sending the old prophet. I do not find anywhere in the Scripture where the Bible commands this prophet to commit a sin to test the young prophet. In fact, this would fly in the face of Scripture since we are told that God is not tempted by sin, and He will not tempt any to sin.

The spiriit that was sent to be a lying spirit was already fallen, and was only going to further corrupt those who had left to serve idols. We do see that there was only one true man of God that day who warned the king of the defeat coming.

This prophet whether to test the confidence or ability of the younger prophet, or perhaps just for some fellowship with another prophet deceived the younger man, and cost him his soul and possibly his soul as well.

[DaveC519]

I agree with part of your statement, with the exception of God sending the old prophet. I do not find anywhere in the Scripture where the Bible commands this prophet to commit a sin to test the young prophet. In fact, this would fly in the face of Scripture since we are told that God is not tempted by sin, and He will not tempt any to sin.I agree that there isn't a lot of information given by which we can form a more complete background picture of the old prophet. But one thing we do know: he's a prophet who speaks by the Word of the Lord (vs.20-22). While it is possible for a prophet to be out of God's will and yet still speak his words (Jonah, Balaam), these are rare events. And in both cases the narrative clearly tells us these men were out of God's will. Further, the old prophet does testify to and confirm the words the young prophet spoke against Jeroboam's altar (vs. 32). He also demonstrates kinship to the young prophet (vs. 31), something we wouldn't expect had the old prophet been one of Jeroboam's prophets, or a even a backslidden prophet of God. And if he had been a false prophet or one of Jeroboam's, why was God using him to deliver the Word of the Lord?

I think it's only natural to question the motives of the old prophet and the veracity of his character and standing with God when we read what his test was to the young prophet. It doesn't seem to harmonize with him delivering God's words in vs. 20-22. But if the latter was a true word of the Lord, and we're left to assume he was in God's will when he delivered it, and the narrative doesn't tell us he was out of God's will at anytime in the story... why are we then assuming he was out of God's will when he did what he did in vs.18?

The spiriit that was sent to be a lying spirit was already fallen, and was only going to further corrupt those who had left to serve idols.Actually, in vs. 19 it says it was the "host of heaven" that stood before the Lord on his right hand and on his left.

We do see that there was only one true man of God that day who warned the king of the defeat coming.I agree.

This prophet whether to test the confidence or ability of the younger prophet, or perhaps just for some fellowship with another prophet deceived the younger man, and cost him his soul and possibly his soul as well.It doesn't say it cost him his soul. All it says in vs. 22 is that his carcass wouldn't come unto the sepulchre of his fathers. And it means something that God allowed the lion to slay the young prophet, but didn't allow him to EAT him, or even kill the prophet's ass. In fact, it appears to be notably uncharacteristic of a lion to slay a prey and then stand there by it long enough for the old prophet to go and gather up the body and take it and bury it.

So, the only judgment rendered by God against the young prophet was the loss of his life, not his eternal standing with God.

[DaveC519]

OK, so, like, if God tells you something directly, and then tells someone else to tell you something else, just to test you, you're supposed to follow the first message from God and reject the other message from God?

:hmmm
LOL Depends... what the test results were when you tried the spirits. ;)

When the Apostle John tells the church to "believe not every spirit, but try the spirits...", he meant don't automatically believe every spirit. Every spirit that comes and speaks to the church (or an individual, for that matter) must pass through the test. Why? "Because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

So, if God has sent you a word, and you know it's from God, and he's confirmed that it's from him, then if someone else gives you a word that's different from what you know is from God... time to try the spirits.

[DaveC519]

Oh, but sometimes when God tells you something, through someone else, you have to obey it, even if it is contrary to previous messages (like, say, commandments).

1 Kings 20:35-36

35 And a certain man of the sons of the prophets said unto his neighbour in the word of the LORD, Smite me, I pray thee. And the man refused to smite him.

36 Then said he unto him, Because thou hast not obeyed the voice of the LORD, behold, as soon as thou art departed from me, a lion shall slay thee. And as soon as he was departed from him, a lion found him, and slew him.
That death-by-lion thing must have been a favorite judgment of God during that time, eh?

[bbyrd009]

Very nice, Mr Blume
That's why it is important to have spiritual discernment!

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1John 4:1

Having the Word IN us and the Holy Ghost to give discernment is of the utmost importance.

Falla39

yup.

[Timmy]

I agree with part of your statement, with the exception of God sending the old prophet. I do not find anywhere in the Scripture where the Bible commands this prophet to commit a sin to test the young prophet. In fact, this would fly in the face of Scripture since we are told that God is not tempted by sin, and He will not tempt any to sin.

...

I've been told many times that if you do something God tells you to do, it's not a sin. No matter what it is. Abraham began obeying God's command to sacrifice Isaac. The Israelite army obeyed God's commands to kill thousands of people, many different times, and even to take little girls captive as spoils of war -- again, on God's command.

[Timmy]

LOL Depends... what the test results were when you tried the spirits. ;)

When the Apostle John tells the church to "believe not every spirit, but try the spirits...", he meant don't automatically believe every spirit. Every spirit that comes and speaks to the church (or an individual, for that matter) must pass through the test. Why? "Because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

So, if God has sent you a word, and you know it's from God, and he's confirmed that it's from him, then if someone else gives you a word that's different from what you know is from God... time to try the spirits.

I don't think that test was available, at the time of 1 Kings. ;)

[Timmy]

That death-by-lion thing must have been a favorite judgment of God during that time, eh?

And bears were handy, sometimes.

[Timmy]

Yeah, read Deut 13 to understand why.

The "iffy" prophet in 1 Kings didn't tell the "real" prophet to worship other gods.

[bbyrd009]

I've been told many times that if you do something God tells you to do, it's not a sin. No matter what it is. Abraham began obeying God's command to sacrifice Isaac. The Israelite army obeyed God's commands to kill thousands of people, many different times, and even to take little girls captive as spoils of war -- again, on God's command.

Again, in a time of Law. And, still dismissing Discernment in any form?
They had it then, too.

[Timmy]

Again, in a time of Law.
How does this explain anything?

And, still dismissing Discernment in any form?
They had it then, too.

No. I have my own discernment, after all. I was referring to 1 John 4 discernment. Was there a fool-proof method available, in the time of 1 Kings?

[Timmy]

Compare 1 Kings 13 and 1 Kings 20:35-36. In both cases, someone is told "God said to do _______". In one case, the person hearing the message obeys, but he is punished for obeying. In the other case, the person hearing the message refuses, and he is punished for refusing.

:blink

[Jay]

I agree that there isn't a lot of information given by which we can form a more complete background picture of the old prophet. But one thing we do know: he's a prophet who speaks by the Word of the Lord (vs.20-22). While it is possible for a prophet to be out of God's will and yet still speak his words (Jonah, Balaam), these are rare events. And in both cases the narrative clearly tells us these men were out of God's will. Further, the old prophet does testify to and confirm the words the young prophet spoke against Jeroboam's altar (vs. 32). He also demonstrates kinship to the young prophet (vs. 31), something we wouldn't expect had the old prophet been one of Jeroboam's prophets, or a even a backslidden prophet of God. And if he had been a false prophet or one of Jeroboam's, why was God using him to deliver the Word of the Lord?


It is true that we do not have his complete profile, however the indications seem as if he were no longer used in that capacity very often (my own personal opinion on the issue). I have seen those who are backslidden and away from God confirm His Word, even be used to give a timely message (see Balaam for a biblical example), and they will claim to kinship. This does not make them true. God will use what is at hand for the moment to accomplish His will. The young prophet had disobeyed the instructions received from God. Thus a backsid prophet would be used to give a word.


I think it's only natural to question the motives of the old prophet and the veracity of his character and standing with God when we read what his test was to the young prophet. It doesn't seem to harmonize with him delivering God's words in vs. 20-22. But if the latter was a true word of the Lord, and we're left to assume he was in God's will when he delivered it, and the narrative doesn't tell us he was out of God's will at anytime in the story... why are we then assuming he was out of God's will when he did what he did in vs.18?

His motives are to be question. At the very least, he was selfish as he did not care that they younger man would be in disobedience to the Lord. I would like to believe that he made a very sad mistake due to a desire for a conversation with another prophet.

It actually can be harmonized if you remember the story of Balaam who wished to curse Israel, but was under a threat of death from God if he did. Thus he only operated in the will of God. The case of the old prophet was a bit different, but he utters a prophecy that was false to bring the younger prophet back with him. (He had not received a word otherwise it would be mentioned due to the relevance to the passage.)

He could be used in this instance as He was not going to use the younger prophet to prophecy his own demise. This was a role that only the older prophet could be used for. There were other prophets that were 'right' but did not truly hear from God. Remember the presence of a prophet called by name when Ahab was preparing to war, and he was under the influence of another spirit.


Actually, in vs. 19 it says it was the "host of heaven" that stood before the Lord on his right hand and on his left.

This is true, however the Book of Job states that there are occasions that Satan makes his appearance before the throne with all of the others (he is still an angel for all all of his rebellion). Thus it would not be without precedence that an unclean spirit was on hand to hear what God would say. God allowed this spirit to lie to Ahab because Ahab would not hear truth (as is also seen in the text).

It doesn't say it cost him his soul. All it says in vs. 22 is that his carcass wouldn't come unto the sepulchre of his fathers. And it means something that God allowed the lion to slay the young prophet, but didn't allow him to EAT him, or even kill the prophet's ass. In fact, it appears to be notably uncharacteristic of a lion to slay a prey and then stand there by it long enough for the old prophet to go and gather up the body and take it and bury it.

So, the only judgment rendered by God against the young prophet was the loss of his life, not his eternal standing with God.


I said that it was possible that the young prophet lost his soul due to disobedience. However, the condition of his heart is not known to us at the time of death. It is God who judged him, and his end was not told to us. I would pray that he found a place to repent before he perished.

I would hope that your description of his demise bodes well for his soul, but we are not given that information.

[mfblume]

The "iffy" prophet in 1 Kings didn't tell the "real" prophet to worship other gods.

Gods come in many forms. Idols of the heart are mentioned in Ezekiel 14:3. The lusts of the heart are appealed to. When a prophet appeals to a lust in your heart, as the young man was hungry and resting due to fatigue under a tree when approached, in a vulnerable state, his fleshly desire was merchandised by the false prophet. It is fulfilling an idol of the heart, like prosperity preachers appeal to people's greed.

Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them? (Ezekiel 14:3 KJV)

And look what is considered idolatry.

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: (Colossians 3:5 KJV)

[bbyrd009]

How does this explain anything?
Meaning that you cannot translate events in that dispensation into our dispensation of Grace without adding in the Grace; like you always do. They were under Law, we are not, when we accept Grace.



No. I have my own discernment, after all. I was referring to 1 John 4 discernment. Was there a fool-proof method available, in the time of 1 Kings?

There you go looking for fool-proof again, in a system that tells you that fools will be confounded. Yes, there was surely a fool-proof method then, for those who were not fools.

[mfblume]

Meaning that you cannot translate events in that dispensation into our dispensation of Grace without adding in the Grace; like you always do. They were under Law, we are not, when we accept Grace.




There you go looking for fool-proof again, in a system that tells you that fools will be confounded. Yes, there was surely a fool-proof method then, for those who were not fools.

Good stuff!

[Timmy]

Meaning that you cannot translate events in that dispensation into our dispensation of Grace without adding in the Grace; like you always do. They were under Law, we are not, when we accept Grace.




There you go looking for fool-proof again, in a system that tells you that fools will be confounded. Yes, there was surely a fool-proof method then, for those who were not fools.

OK, thanks. And with Mike's help, I'm starting to understand, I think. At least in some cases, such as when a purported message is about something you want to do. In that case, it can't be from God, because it would be idolatry to obey it. In the case at hand, the prophet was hungry and wanted to eat. But he should have known that this wasn't from God, because God would not actually want him to fulfill that idolatrous desire.

:thumbsup

[Timmy]

Oh, and that other case in 1 Kings? The fellow didn't want to smite that man, so he should have known that message really was from God.

:thumbsup

[bbyrd009]

Ya, I tried that "sympathy for the devil" yack, myself, for a while (10 years I'll never get back, lol)

[Timmy]

Ya, I tried that "sympathy for the devil" yack, myself, for a while (10 years I'll never get back, lol)

What?

[mfblume]

OK, thanks. And with Mike's help, I'm starting to understand, I think. At least in some cases, such as when a purported message is about something you want to do. In that case, it can't be from God, because it would be idolatry to obey it. In the case at hand, the prophet was hungry and wanted to eat. But he should have known that this wasn't from God, because God would not actually want him to fulfill that idolatrous desire.

:thumbsup

When God commands something like NOT EATING for a reason and another word contradicts it, there is more to it than thinking eating is idolatrous.

But you can twist the night away with Chubby if you wish! :)

There comes a time with some that a person does not WANT the bible to make sense.

[Timmy]

When God commands something like NOT EATING for a reason and another word contradicts it, there is more to it than thinking eating is idolatrous.
OK. Then what exactly is the reason this prophet should have known better than to believe another (alleged) prophet? Should people today never believe things alleged prophets tell them, if it contradicts something they think God told them before?


But you can twist the night away with Chubby if you wish! :)

There comes a time with some that a person does not WANT the bible to make sense.

Why should I either want it to or not want it to make sense?

Some of it makes sense. Some of it doesn't. So?

[bbyrd009]

Sooooo, if you just accept that some of it doesn't make sense to you yet, you generally get wisdom when you have sought it. Other Scripture, other translations, and even new insight into the context of a verse, might quickly (nowadays) get you to a working def of a Scripture--and a fuller grasp of a certain Scripture might come in 5-10 years, like out of the blue, a puzzle piece.

If "Love your neighbor" is 9/10ths, what are we talking about, anyway? And you have to accept that only a loving God would come up with Love your neighbor. All that other stuff, eating your children, may also be focused on, even chosen; free will.
You imagine persecution where there is none.
Yes; they did, too.

[Timmy]

Sooooo, if you just accept that some of it doesn't make sense to you yet, you generally get wisdom when you have sought it. Other Scripture, other translations, and even new insight into the context of a verse, might quickly (nowadays) get you to a working def of a Scripture--and a fuller grasp of a certain Scripture might come in 5-10 years, like out of the blue, a puzzle piece.

If "Love your neighbor" is 9/10ths, what are we talking about, anyway? And you have to accept that only a loving God would come up with Love your neighbor. All that other stuff, eating your children, may also be focused on, even chosen; free will.
You imagine persecution where there is none.
Yes; they did, too.

Only a loving God would come up with Love your neighbor? Really? Jesus was not the first to come up with this idea. Sorry.

[bbyrd009]

Only a loving God would come up with Love your neighbor? Really? Jesus was not the first to come up with this idea. Sorry.

Um, no, but His Father was--we lean more toward sacrificing our children
as a means of appeasing gods, obviously.
Wadr, it is apparent in what you choose to answer of my last post.
Watching you pick around this principle in Scripture all day long
just further confirms it, at least for everyone else.

Yes; only a loving God would come up with Love your neighbor. Really.
We are told that this is 9/10ths of the Law, or in other words,
the part that really matters. That you have..."Found It," lol, reflected elsewhere
is not surprising.

Your adherence to a form, or the attempted tearing down
of others' forms, which amounts to the same thing,
as one does not bother to tear down an obvious lie,
they fall down by themselves, amounts to
Man worship, or believing men.

I'm not sure that this is on purpose on your part,
but a review of your posts will reveal that you are invested
in what other people say about Scripture,
which Scripture will tell you explicitly not to do.

Anything in Scripture that one believes, that was given them by another,
is useless lip service, until personally experienced.

Jesus may not have invented "Love your neighbor,"
but a glance at my calendar tells me that 2012 years ago,
Jesus undeniably walked the earth, and I believe blamelessly,
and def took "Love your neighbor" as far as it could go
(ignoring Judas' invitation, surely a temptation, to assume a material throne).

So it might serve you to explain that before you go much further down this road.
(I can already hear your reply "explain what?" lol)

[Timmy]

Um, no, but His Father was--we lean more toward sacrificing our children as a means of appeasing gods, obviously.

Was Confucius inspired by God? (551 – 479 BC.)

Appeasing gods or God is an interesting thing to bring up. The Bible's God is appeased by animal sacrifices, or used to be. Now He won't accept them, since His own child was sacrificed in their place. Good news for all those animals!

[bbyrd009]

Was Confucius inspired by God? (551 – 479 BC.)

Appeasing gods or God is an interesting thing to bring up. The Bible's God is appeased by animal sacrifices, or used to be. Now He won't accept them, since His own child was sacrificed in their place. Good news for all those animals!

I haven't read much Confucious, so I couldn't say. It seems to be too often at odds with the Tao, and I guess a Taoist might answer "no." Does Confucianism produce fruit? Undeniably, and it is not hidden. I was mostly struck by the premises of a Confucianist v a Taoist. Confucious would also answer "no," apparently?

"Good news for all those animals," totally ignoring the point, is quite a Confucian premise, actually. Let's totally ignore the car, and focus on the door handles, so to speak. And "The day (of a man's) death is better than his birth" should make one at least wonder "How do you know?" to this.

[Timmy]

I haven't read much Confucious, so I couldn't say. It seems to be too often at odds with the Tao, and I guess a Taoist might answer "no." Does Confucianism produce fruit? Undeniably, and it is not hidden. I was mostly struck by the premises of a Confucianist v a Taoist. Confucious would also answer "no," apparently?

"Good news for all those animals," totally ignoring the point, is quite a Confucian premise, actually. Let's totally ignore the car, and focus on the door handles, so to speak. And "The day (of a man's) death is better than his birth" should make one at least wonder "How do you know?" to this.

OT: kill animals to be forgiven of sins.

NT: Jesus' sacrifice forgives sins, and animal sacrifice no longer works.

[bbyrd009]

OT: kill animals to be forgiven of sins.

NT: Jesus' sacrifice forgives sins, and animal sacrifice no longer works.

Amen. Quite the simple illumination, as it is not pleasant to kill anything for most people.

[Timmy]

Amen. Quite the simple illumination, as it is not pleasant to kill anything for most people.

Amen? But you chide me for mentioning that it's good news for all those animals? :banghead

[bbyrd009]

Amen? But you chide me for mentioning that it's good news for all those animals? :banghead

Um, didn't mean to chide, just that
1) The animals are not the point of the story; that, to me, is wandering off, looking for salvation for scapegoats, more sympathy for the devil, imo, and
2) You don't even know if it was good news for any animals? Although I don't know that it wasn't, either; but again, that is not the point. It is irrelevant--so I expect that we'll be stuck on it for the rest of the day?

[Timmy]

Um, didn't mean to chide, just that
1) The animals are not the point of the story; that, to me, is wandering off, looking for salvation for scapegoats, more sympathy for the devil, imo, and
2) You don't even know if it was good news for any animals? Although I don't know that it wasn't, either; but again, that is not the point. It is irrelevant--so I expect that we'll be stuck on it for the rest of the day?

This is AFF, after all. :lol