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OneAccord
03-22-2012, 04:22 PM
"And let me add this: Had the Holy Spirit not been with Jesus, He would have sinned. That's right, it was the Holy Spirit that was the power that kept Him pure. He was not only sent from heaven, but He was called the Son of Man- and as such He was capable of sinning.... Without the Holy Ghost, Jesus would have never made it...Can you imagine Christ headed for the grave, knowing He would remain there forever, if the Holy Ghost would change His mind about raising Him from the dead?"


Agree or disagree?

houston
03-22-2012, 04:38 PM
It depends. What does the writer believe is the relationship between Jesus and the Holy Spirit?

Hoovie
03-22-2012, 04:58 PM
Convoluted reasoning, seeing that Jesus was GOD Himself.

Sort of like me saying, "If I did not have a physical body I could walk through walls". Problem is, I am human, and by definition I do have a physical body.

Austin
03-23-2012, 05:36 AM
God can't sin no matter what form he takes on. That is what the Devil thought when tried to tempt Him. he thought, that, just because the Lord of Hosts was in human form that he was weak like common man, but the thing he forgot was, jesus was not born under the curse of sin, and did not come into this world with a sinful nature.
it is impossible for God to sin.
Satan reminds me of his children on this earth, he was judging Jesus, as so many judge others by their own standards. Like wise Satan did the same.

Michael The Disciple
03-23-2012, 06:22 AM
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? Heb. 9:14

It took the eternal Spirit just like it does for us.

OneAccord
03-23-2012, 07:44 AM
It depends. What does the writer believe is the relationship between Jesus and the Holy Spirit?

This is what the writer said concerning hs veiws concerning the relationship between the Holy Spirit and Jesus. I might add that the writer stated this veiw came to him by "revelation knowledge".


"God the Father..... is a person; and He is a triune being by Himelf separate from the Son and the Holy Ghost..... See, God the Father is a person, God the Son is a person, God the Holy Ghost is a person. But each one of them is a triune being by Himself. If I can shock you- and maybe I should- there's NINE of them... God the Father.... is a person with is own personal spirit, with his own personal soul, and his own personal spirit-body".

To be fair, however, the writer later retracted this statement saying it was "wrong" and "dumb". But then, not long thereafter, he said,

"God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost- three separate individuals, one in essence, one in work- and may I add, each one of them possessing His own spirit-body".

Bro. Robbins
03-23-2012, 08:06 AM
I was going to say that this must be a Trinitarian writing these teachings. To say something like "Jesus needed the Holy Ghost, and without He would have..." just doesn't doesn't line up with who Jesus in a Oneness view. I'm going to say this very simplisticly, Jesus didn't have the Holy Ghost, he is the Holy Ghost. He is the Father.... He is God.

I would also say that this line of teaching is very predominant in the Word of Faith, name it claim it, crowd. Many Word of Faithers, who preach that "little gods" teaching hold this teaching about Jesus needing the Holy Ghost as well.

It's dangerous. Statements like what this writer is making is almost in danger of debating the very diety of Jesus... and who is actually is. Very dangerous.

mfblume
03-23-2012, 08:35 AM
It is important to know that Christ's humanity was as human as ours is. Yes, he most certainly needed the Spirit in Him. His humanity was not deity. He humbled himself and took on the form of a servant so much that He required Spirit leading. To say he was God and was the Spirit is to totally overlook the fact that He was manifested in genuine, weak, frail humanity.

That is why he said himself that he could DO NOTHING without the Father in him. In all due respect it is a faulty understanding of oneness to say His humanity did not require the Spirit indwelling as we do today.

OneAccord
03-23-2012, 08:36 AM
It was Benny Hinn who made these statements. The first one was made in the 1st printing of his book, "Good Morning, Holy Spirit". The second was made on his program in October, 1990.

Bro. Robbins
03-23-2012, 08:42 AM
It is important to know that Christ's humanity was as human as ours is. Yes, he most certainly needed the Spirit in Him. His humanity was not deity. He humbled himself and took on the form of a servant so much that He required Spirit leading. To say he was God and was the Spirit is to totally overlook the fact that He was manifested in genuine, weak, frail humanity.

That is why he said himself that he could DO NOTHING without the Father in him. In all due respect it is a faulty understanding of oneness to say His humanity did not require the Spirit indwelling as we do today.

The need is only in those who have not obtained full victory in the denial of the flesh... yes, he was 100% man, but his flesh was not under the sin curse... therefore he had conquered the flesh.

mfblume
03-23-2012, 08:43 AM
Leif Jesus as a man did not require the Spirit in Him, then he was not actually manifested in flesh. All flesh requires God's Spirit in it in order to guide us. That is why Jesus said this:

As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. (John 6:57 KJV)

Notice we need to live by Him as much as He lived by the Spirit of the Father. So, think about how much we need to live by Him and you will be your answer about how much He needed the Spirit.

mfblume
03-23-2012, 08:45 AM
The need is only in those who have not obtained full victory in the denial of the flesh... yes, he was 100% man, but his flesh was not under the sin curse... therefore he had conquered the flesh.

He did not have to be under the sin curse to require the Spirit as a man. Even unfallen Adam was intended to ingest the Life in the fruit of Life before he sinned.

As I said, john 6:57 shows his need.

Bro. Robbins
03-23-2012, 08:48 AM
Are you assuming that Adam had the Spirit of God in him prior to the fall? If so, where do you get that?

mfblume
03-23-2012, 08:52 AM
It is not trinitarian to say his humanity required the Spirit in Him for success any more than it is to say His humanity prayed. That humanity HAD TO PRAY. He said he could do nothing but by the Father.

As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. (John 6:57 KJV)

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (John 14:10 KJV)

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. (John 5:30 KJV)

It is not sin in us that maes us able to sin. How did Adam sin to begin with before he had a sin nature? if the Spirit of God in us is required only because we have a sin curse over us, then how did Adam sin before the fall? The truth is that Adam was not created under a sin curse, but had the potential to sin, nevertheless, and he did. The fruit of life was analogous to our reception of the Spirit. Adam needed that in him to guide him just as Jesus required the Spirit in Him to guide Him. That is why he flatly stated he could do nothing on his own and required the Father in Him.

Bro. Robbins
03-23-2012, 08:53 AM
It is not trinitarian to say his humanity required the Spirit in Him for success any more than it is to say His humanity prayed. That humanity HAD TO PRAY. He said he could do nothing but by the Father.

As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. (John 6:57 KJV)

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (John 14:10 KJV)

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. (John 5:30 KJV)

It is not sin in us that maes us able to sin. How did Adam sin to begin with before he had a sin nature? if the Spirit of God in us is required only because we have a sin curse over us, then how did Adam sin before the fall? The truth is that Adam was not created under a sin curse, but had the potential to sin, nevertheless, and he did. The fruit of life was analogous to our reception of the Spirit. Adam needed that in him to guide him just as Jesus required the Spirit in Him to guide Him. That is why he flatly stated he could do nothing on his own and required the Father in Him.

we'll just have to agree to disagree brother....

mfblume
03-23-2012, 08:54 AM
Are you assuming that Adam had the Spirit of God in him prior to the fall? If so, where do you get that?

No. Had he gotten the fruit of life in him, then that would have been the Spirit in Him. It was God's eternal life, itself. But the enemy knew what that would mean, and he had to plug Adam up with the wrong fruit in order to ensure Adam not get the Life.

That is the same Life Jesus said that he came to give. And my point in bringing Adam into the picture is that before he fell he had no Spirit in him and look what happened.

mfblume
03-23-2012, 08:55 AM
we'll just have to agree to disagree brother....

I just quoted bible showing Jesus REQUIRED the Father in him. Can you provide bible to support your view?

Bro. Robbins
03-23-2012, 08:58 AM
I just quoted bible showing Jesus REQUIRED the Father in him. Can you provide bible to support your view?

And brother, I believe you are prooftexting, to be honest.

There are times brother, when you see that someone is set in what they believe. If I thought anything fruitful and upbuilding of the kingdom would come of debating it with you, I would. But I feel checked in my spirit to leave it as it is, you believe what you believe, and I'll believe what I believe. Just doing what the Lord told me to do.

mfblume
03-23-2012, 09:26 AM
And brother, I believe you are prooftexting, to be honest.

There are times brother, when you see that someone is set in what they believe. If I thought anything fruitful and upbuilding of the kingdom would come of debating it with you, I would. But I feel checked in my spirit to leave it as it is, you believe what you believe, and I'll believe what I believe. Just doing what the Lord told me to do.

Set in what I believe? If I got what I believe from the scriptures that I showed to you, then I SHOULD be set in what I believe. That is why I provided those scriptures. Those scriptures taught me what I believe. I did not believe this concept and looked for it in the bible to prooftext. It is incumbent upon one who claims another is prooftexting to show the other what those verses are actually saying if one claims the other is prooftexting. But to not do that and leave the conversation is simply failing to prove their point all the way around.

In all due respect, you have not shown any scriptures to back up your claims, whereas I used bible. At least you could respond and show me what I read incorrectly in those verses and what the passages actually do say instead.

Surely you have scriptures to support your claim. What are they? How can we know if your belief is correct when you have not provided one single scripture that allegedly taught it to you?

mfblume
03-23-2012, 09:29 AM
The need is only in those who have not obtained full victory in the denial of the flesh... yes, he was 100% man, but his flesh was not under the sin curse... therefore he had conquered the flesh.

Let me speak more again about his flesh.

He Himself said He could do nothing (nothing means nothing) -- including conquer his flesh - without the Father in Him. That is the Spirit in Him.

Adam required the Life of God in Him by way of the fruit of Life as well. Why? Because he was sin cursed? No. God put that tree in the Garden for Adam to eat before Adam fell. Jesus was in the state Adam was in before Adam fell, only Jesus had the Father's Spirit in Him. Adam did not. Adam was SUPPOSED TO get that Life in Him by way of the fruit of Life. So, that LIFE in the Fruit would be like Jesus having the Spirit of the Father in Him. It would guide Him. It would direct Him and strengthen Him to make the right choices.

The Spirit is not just for sin-cursed people.

Bro. Robbins
03-23-2012, 09:44 AM
Surely you have scriptures to support your claim. What are they? How can we know if your belief is correct when you have not provided one single scripture that allegedly taught it to you?

Brother... I honestly don't understand your tone, or your chasing after this bone you seem to have... I do have Scriptural basis for my belief, but feel compelled of the Lord to leave the discussion where it is. Surely, you can respect that?

Part of keeping unity is realizing when further discussion of a difference will do no good, and that is where we are. You believe you have provided Scripture for your belief, I don't.. I don't see those Scriptures as you do. Since when was the purpose of my posting to convince anyone that my belief is correct? That's not why I'm here.

I really don't understand why you feel the need to chase after me once I said that we'll have to agree to disagree, but that is what most people recognize in a discussion as a point of empasse, and where to further discuss it, would be of no profit for the work of the Kingdom.

Lastly, in all due respect... if you and I were standing with a group of people, having a conversation, and once we realize we won't agree I were to say, we'll just have to agree to disagree brother, the Lord is checking me for me to move on... would you chase after me wanting to continue it? That's the equivalent of what your doing here. I just don't understand that.

Michael Phelps
03-23-2012, 09:53 AM
Brother... I honestly don't understand your tone, or your chasing after this bone you seem to have... I do have Scriptural basis for my belief, but feel compelled of the Lord to leave the discussion where it is. Surely, you can respect that?

Part of keeping unity is realizing when further discussion of a difference will do no good, and that is where we are. You believe you have provided Scripture for your belief, I don't.. I don't see those Scriptures as you do. Since when was the purpose of my posting to convince anyone that my belief is correct? That's not why I'm here.

I really don't understand why you feel the need to chase after me once I said that we'll have to agree to disagree, but that is what most people recognize in a discussion as a point of empasse, and where to further discuss it, would be of no profit for the work of the Kingdom.

Lastly, in all due respect... if you and I were standing with a group of people, having a conversation, and once we realize we won't agree I were to say, we'll just have to agree to disagree brother, the Lord is checking me for me to move on... would you chase after me wanting to continue it? That's the equivalent of what your doing here. I just don't understand that.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I will make an observation......you use the term "proof texting" a LOT. It may appear to some that when you don't have an answer, but someone posts a scripture that may contradict your position, you throw the term out there, and then say the Lord told you to leave the conversation.

That definitely could appear to be a cop out. Just an observation, not an accusation.

Michael Phelps
03-23-2012, 09:58 AM
God can't sin no matter what form he takes on. That is what the Devil thought when tried to tempt Him. he thought, that, just because the Lord of Hosts was in human form that he was weak like common man, but the thing he forgot was, jesus was not born under the curse of sin, and did not come into this world with a sinful nature.
it is impossible for God to sin.
Satan reminds me of his children on this earth, he was judging Jesus, as so many judge others by their own standards. Like wise Satan did the same.

To your point, if it was impossible for Jesus to sin, why did the Spirit lead him into the wilderness to "be tempted of the devil"? If it was impossible for Jesus (the man) to sin, then what was the purpose of that exercise?

Second point - if you are referring to the fact that since Jesus was God, it was impossible for him to sin, you are denying his humanity completely.

The Bible says he was "tempted in all points like as we, YET without sin".

The implication here is that it was possible for Jesus to sin, and he had to fight the same battles that we do, and he did so and emerged victorious.

Bro. Robbins
03-23-2012, 10:00 AM
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I will make an observation......you use the term "proof texting" a LOT. It may appear to some that when you don't have an answer, but someone posts a scripture that may contradict your position, you throw the term out there, and then say the Lord told you to leave the conversation.

That definitely could appear to be a cop out. Just an observation, not an accusation.

I have used proof texting a lot, because I believe we within Pentecostal circles really are bad for proof texting.

This is atually the first time that I ever said the Lord told me to let it go. I respect this brother's belief... I've heard others state it as well. I don't agree with it, and honestly don't see the point of furthering it. I'm not here to win a debate, win anyone over, or convince anyone... so honestly, it really doesn't matter in the overall scheme of things.

The original poster asked if we agree'd or disagree'd with the statement. I gave my opinion, and he gave his. He decided to write a whole lot more about his feelings about it than I did mine...

I just don't see the use in going any further with it on my part, since it's not a competition, and there's no one to sway. This brother believes that Jesus agrees with the original statement evidently, and I don't.

Pilgrum
03-23-2012, 10:20 AM
Let me speak more again about his flesh.

He Himself said He could do nothing (nothing means nothing) -- including conquer his flesh - without the Father in Him. That is the Spirit in Him.

Adam required the Life of God in Him by way of the fruit of Life as well. Why? Because he was sin cursed? No. God put that tree in the Garden for Adam to eat before Adam fell. Jesus was in the state Adam was in before Adam fell, only Jesus had the Father's Spirit in Him. Adam did not. Adam was SUPPOSED TO get that Life in Him by way of the fruit of Life. So, that LIFE in the Fruit would be like Jesus having the Spirit of the Father in Him. It would guide Him. It would direct Him and strengthen Him to make the right choices.

The Spirit is not just for sin-cursed people.

FWIW, I appreciate this Bothers teaching and have gleaned a lot from his input to this forum. Do I agree with everything, no, but as to the subject of this thread I do. I don't feel he is being overbearing or over zealous here either. Seems a pretty civil discussion to me.

Michael Phelps
03-23-2012, 10:23 AM
FWIW, I appreciate this Bothers teaching and have gleaned a lot from his input to this forum. Do I agree with everything, no, but as to the subject of this thread I do. I don't feel he is being overbearing or over zealous here either. Seems a pretty civil discussion to me.

Agreed. Great point.

mfblume
03-23-2012, 11:41 AM
Brother... I honestly don't understand your tone, or your chasing after this bone you seem to have... I do have Scriptural basis for my belief, but feel compelled of the Lord to leave the discussion where it is. Surely, you can respect that?

Part of keeping unity is realizing when further discussion of a difference will do no good, and that is where we are. You believe you have provided Scripture for your belief, I don't.. I don't see those Scriptures as you do. Since when was the purpose of my posting to convince anyone that my belief is correct? That's not why I'm here.

I really don't understand why you feel the need to chase after me once I said that we'll have to agree to disagree, but that is what most people recognize in a discussion as a point of empasse, and where to further discuss it, would be of no profit for the work of the Kingdom.

Lastly, in all due respect... if you and I were standing with a group of people, having a conversation, and once we realize we won't agree I were to say, we'll just have to agree to disagree brother, the Lord is checking me for me to move on... would you chase after me wanting to continue it? That's the equivalent of what your doing here. I just don't understand that.

Hey, back off, Hoss. I meant no battle nor chase. I simply stated a simple point that you did not show bible for your thoughts. And when you said I prooftexted, you did not prove where I did it and what I should have gotten from those verses otherwise.

I am not sure why one would want to post their opinion with no bible and accuse another of prooftexting and then not show how and where they did it. But if that's your deal, fine with me. At least I offered proof, is all.

mfblume
03-23-2012, 11:54 AM
To your point, if it was impossible for Jesus to sin, why did the Spirit lead him into the wilderness to "be tempted of the devil"? If it was impossible for Jesus (the man) to sin, then what was the purpose of that exercise?

Second point - if you are referring to the fact that since Jesus was God, it was impossible for him to sin, you are denying his humanity completely.

The Bible says he was "tempted in all points like as we, YET without sin".

The implication here is that it was possible for Jesus to sin, and he had to fight the same battles that we do, and he did so and emerged victorious.

Excellent points. And good bible basis.

mfblume
03-23-2012, 12:36 PM
FWIW, I appreciate this Bothers teaching and have gleaned a lot from his input to this forum. Do I agree with everything, no, but as to the subject of this thread I do. I don't feel he is being overbearing or over zealous here either. Seems a pretty civil discussion to me.

Thanks. I guess if you ask some people to show bible for their beliefs, they think you are attacking and hounding them.

The Lemon
03-23-2012, 12:40 PM
Proof Texting...you mean like:

"A woman shall not wear that which pertaineth to a man, and a man shall not wear a womans garment" = Women wear skirts and men wear pants...you mean that type of "Proof Texting"

Oh I could have tons of fun with Pentecostal "Proof Texting"

Michael Phelps
03-23-2012, 12:52 PM
Proof Texting...you mean like:

"A woman shall not wear that which pertaineth to a man, and a man shall not wear a womans garment" = Women wear skirts and men wear pants...you mean that type of "Proof Texting"

Oh I could have tons of fun with Pentecostal "Proof Texting"

:highfive:highfive:heeheehee:heeheehee:happydance: happydance:thumbsup:thumbsup

houston
03-23-2012, 04:59 PM
It was Benny Hinn who made these statements. The first one was made in the 1st printing of his book, "Good Morning, Holy Spirit". The second was made on his program in October, 1990.

Yeah, I recognized that it was BH. LOL

houston
03-23-2012, 05:01 PM
I was a 14 yr old teen watching PTL on TBN. BH mentions the "there's nine of them." P.C. and J.B.C. are absorbing this mess and P.C. says something like, "Well, if Benny said it then it must be right."

mfblume
03-23-2012, 05:09 PM
I was a 14 yr old teen watching PTL on TBN. BH mentions the "there's nine of them." P.C. and J.B.C. are absorbing this mess and P.C. says something like, "Well, if Benny said it then it must be right."

Yeah, the 9 issue reminds me of the kabbalah where there are NINE emanations of God,and one of them is a homosexual power.

houston
03-23-2012, 05:12 PM
And brother, I believe you are prooftexting, to be honest.
BWAHAHAHA!


I feel checked in my spirit to leave it as it is, you believe what you believe, and I'll believe what I believe. Just doing what the Lord told me to do.Translation:

I can't refute

I can't refute

houston
03-23-2012, 05:18 PM
Why would the Spirit check someone in their spirit to not provide scriptural foundation for a belief while accusing others of prooftexting?

To keep the peace? LOL

houston
03-23-2012, 05:19 PM
Yeah, the 9 issue reminds me of the kabbalah where there are NINE emanations of God,and one of them is a homosexual power.

Is there a name for the homodunamis?

houston
03-23-2012, 05:19 PM
Oh, I invented a word.

tv1a
03-24-2012, 10:19 PM
Who let the dogs out? I get the feeling you didn't get your gloves on. And you still cleaned up.

Thanks. I guess if you ask some people to show bible for their beliefs, they think you are attacking and hounding them.