Romans 2:6-11

[jfrog]

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11For there is no respect of persons with God.


The scripture says that God gives eternal life to those who continue in well doing and tribulation and anguish to those who do evil. Is this salvation by works?

I also wonder if verse 11 where it says "there is no respect of persons with god" also applies to those who simply believe on Jesus but continue to do evil and those who do not believe on Jesus but continue to do good...

Any thoughts?

[bbyrd009]

I'd love to read a cogent argument about this
that doesn't degenerate into a ____ing match;
with where Grace comes in would be a bonus.

[Michael The Disciple]

The scripture says that God gives eternal life to those who continue in well doing and tribulation and anguish to those who do evil. Is this salvation by works?

I also wonder if verse 11 where it says "there is no respect of persons with god" also applies to those who simply believe on Jesus but continue to do evil and those who do not believe on Jesus but continue to do good...

Any thoughts?

It is teaching the consistent New Testament message that one must overcome and do the will of God to attain final salvation. It is only contradictory to the false doctrine that one need not do the will of God to enter Heaven.

[jfrog]

It is teaching the consistent New Testament message that one must overcome and do the will of God to attain final salvation. It is only contradictory to the false doctrine that one need not do the will of God to enter Heaven.

So as long as one is doing the will of God then they are saved?

[HRea]

The scripture says that God gives eternal life to those who continue in well doing and tribulation and anguish to those who do evil. Is this salvation by works?

I also wonder if verse 11 where it says "there is no respect of persons with god" also applies to those who simply believe on Jesus but continue to do evil and those who do not believe on Jesus but continue to do good...

Any thoughts?

So as long as one is doing the will of God then they are saved?

Salvation by works is a phrase that the enemy has coined to convince believers not to obey the will of God. If the enemy can get you to believe that doing anything beyond believing is a work then he has effectively stopped you from obeying the will of God for you.

Consistent throughout the entire Bible is "salvation by obedience". Paul and James tell us that Abraham was justified by faith, but faith only justifies when accompanied by obedience. Abraham wasn't justified until he placed Isaac on the altar and raised the knife; although he did believe that God would keep His promise through Isaac, he still offered Isaac.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Salvation is by grace through faith - you cannot work for salvation; however, afterwards, we live our salvation through our conduct, deeds and actions. If Christ is alive in us, then we shall do the works of Christ. If our old human nature remains, then we will do the works of darkness.

[jfrog]

Salvation by works is a phrase that the enemy has coined to convince believers not to obey the will of God. If the enemy can get you to believe that doing anything beyond believing is a work then he has effectively stopped you from obeying the will of God for you.

Consistent throughout the entire Bible is "salvation by obedience". Paul and James tell us that Abraham was justified by faith, but faith only justifies when accompanied by obedience. Abraham wasn't justified until he placed Isaac on the altar and raised the knife; although he did believe that God would keep His promise through Isaac, he still offered Isaac.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Salvation is by grace through faith - you cannot work for salvation; however, afterwards, we live our salvation through our conduct, deeds and actions. If Christ is alive in us, then we shall do the works of Christ. If our old human nature remains, then we will do the works of darkness.

What's funny is that the whole premise of romans is that we are sinners, that if God were to judge our works that we would not have eternal life.

[jfrog]

It is teaching the consistent New Testament message that one must overcome and do the will of God to attain final salvation. It is only contradictory to the false doctrine that one need not do the will of God to enter Heaven.

I know of no one that teaches this. Not one.

[HRea]

What's funny is that the whole premise of romans is that we are sinners, that if God were to judge our works that we would not have eternal life.

This is why Romans is so important to us today. Paul is speaking to us (idolatrous gentiles, having not known the one true God before hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ). If we continue as we were (in sin), sin will lead us to judgment and death; but we have hope through Jesus Christ that we can be changed.

But Romans is not only about being sinners and judgment; it also speaks to salvation, our hope and future, and right conduct.

Romans 5 - Jesus loved us when we were unlovable and provided Himself to be our sacrifice
Romans 6 - What happens to us on the day of salvation
Romans 7 - Our helplessness in the flesh
Romans 8 - You choose to pursue the Spirit or the flesh, knowing that the two are incompatible and enmity.

[Michael The Disciple]

I know of no one that teaches this. Not one.

Thats funny I see it here all the time. The teaching that obedience/doing the will of God consistently is legalism or phariseeism and last but not least, judgmental.

But yes Paul was teaching one does not have (except by faith) immortality or eternal life until they have finished their course.

[jfrog]

Thats funny I see it here all the time. The teaching that obedience/doing the will of God consistently is legalism or phariseeism and last but not least, judgmental.

But yes Paul was teaching one does not have (except by faith) immortality or eternal life until they have finished their course.

You read to much into peoples comments for I have not seen it once here.

[jfrog]

This is why Romans is so important to us today. Paul is speaking to us (idolatrous gentiles, having not known the one true God before hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ). If we continue as we were (in sin), sin will lead us to judgment and death; but we have hope through Jesus Christ that we can be changed.

But Romans is not only about being sinners and judgment; it also speaks to salvation, our hope and future, and right conduct.

Romans 5 - Jesus loved us when we were unlovable and provided Himself to be our sacrifice
Romans 6 - What happens to us on the day of salvation
Romans 7 - Our helplessness in the flesh
Romans 8 - You choose to pursue the Spirit or the flesh, knowing that the two are incompatible and enmity.

But how do we reconcile that all are sinners with us being judged by our works according to the passage I cited? Was Pauls point to show that all are damned on their own?

[bbyrd009]

You read to much into peoples comments for I have not seen it once here.

?

[jfrog]

?

have you?

[HRea]

But how do we reconcile that all are sinners with us being judged by our works according to the passage I cited? Was Pauls point to show that all are damned on their own?

The very definition of sin is transgression of divine law. It is what we do that decides our eternal fate. You will either commit sin or commit acts of righteousness. We are not all damned; but then again, we are not all heirs of eternal life. We will all be judged by God according to our own conduct.

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Paul begins Romans 2 by telling those that judge others, that they will also be judged. Just knowing right from wrong, righteousness from sin, is not enough. You must live it. And in living, you will conduct yourself in such a way as to demonstration to God whether you're saved or not.

Ezekiel 18:20-24
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

So that Paul's point is consistent with the teachings of the Apostles and Prophets: yes, you will be judged according to your deeds and conducts. We will all be judged according to the same judgment. And, the whole crux will come down to one very important question:

Were you obedience to the Word of God?

[bbyrd009]

have you?

Well, I agree it is danced around by many Pastors, and I think HRea's response spoke to this. I had to seek it, and for the life of me I couldn't explain why the NT seems to make this so difficult. So I have to say you have a point.

[bbyrd009]

I think it is the difference in a Pharisee, lacking Grace/Love,
and those (rare) people that I am aware of,
who never go to church, wouldn't grasp or care about
our conditions for salvation,
yet I cannot imagine in hell.
Ghandi, etc.

[Sam]

I think it is the difference in a Pharisee, lacking Grace/Love,
and those (rare) people that I am aware of,
who never go to church, wouldn't grasp or care about
our conditions for salvation,
yet I cannot imagine in hell.
Ghandi, etc.

This has been a problem for some in Oneness Pentecost.

Real hardliners insist that if anyone--ever-- was not baptized by immersion using some form of the name "Jesus" and/or titles such as "Lord" or "Christ" and did not speak with tongues, that person is lost and either now or soon shall be in hellfire suffering eternally. This would include all martyrs who have been killed for preaching what they thought was Christianity, would also include reformers such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, would include preachers and Christian workers such as Oral Roberts, Billy Graham, D.L. Moody, Mother Teresa, etc. It would also include men like Ghandi which you mentioned.

Since this seems "extreme" some OP teachers such as Clyde Haney, S.G. Norris, G.T. Haywood, F.E. Curts and others taught some sort of "light doctrine" which said that all who served God to the best of their knowledge would make it --not in the rapture or first resurrection--but at the Great White Throne Judgment of the second resurrection. Although usually not publicized, that teaching is held by many pastors and teachers in the UPC who were influenced by these older teachers.

This way, an OP can preach Acts 2:38 as the new birth or the way into "the Church" but not say that everyone who does not embrace that message is going to hell. There are lots of OP folks who don't even realize that the "light doctrine" is part of UPC teaching and practice.

[RevDWW]

Wouldn't the gist of these verses be that we have to couple action to our obedience? If you say you believe but will not obey Jesus you are not a real believer.

[HRea]

Well, I agree it is danced around by many Pastors, and I think HRea's response spoke to this. I had to seek it, and for the life of me I couldn't explain why the NT seems to make this so difficult. So I have to say you have a point.

No matter how I say this, it will sound hard-hearted and judgmental, although it is not at all how I mean this to sound; so I apologize for any misunderstanding of my tenor and will just lay it out.

Within traditional OP churches, there is quite a bit of confusion (festered by the enemy) about obedience; often, this confusion (and resentment) centers on "standards". Because of this long festering resentment, many cannot separate obedience to the Word and obedience to a man (your pastor), rejecting both as legalism and contrary to grace. Even when certain teachings are found in the Word, this rejection (born from resentment) prevents obedience. I am so sick of hearing "that's your interpretation" when there is no seeking on the part of those who bring railing accusations.

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

However, the truth of the matter is that the Lord isn't looking for blind obedience but that we choose obedience; He desires that we desire to go beyond these foundational precepts into a greater walk with Him. We cannot fulfill what the Lord desires for us if we continually focus on the "minimum requirements".

Luke 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

Luke 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

This has been a problem for some in Oneness Pentecost.

Real hardliners insist...

Since this seems "extreme" some OP teachers...

Bro. Sam, I've picked just a few phrases from your reply, not to distort it, but to reinforce a specific teaching of Paul, we need to get past the "day of salvation" and "go on unto perfection" (Hebrews 6:1-2) then we will know how to instruct others in the ways of eternal life. Too much focus in the body of Christ has been on the "day of salvation" and too little has been on godly perfection (perfection according to the measuring stick put forth by Paul). After our conversion, we must diligently seek to become more like Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

[Jay]

I also wonder if verse 11 where it says "there is no respect of persons with god" also applies to those who simply believe on Jesus but continue to do evil and those who do not believe on Jesus but continue to do good...


Verse 11 is stating that God does not care about disability, ability, age, gender, nationality, name, social status, or any other measure that we base our opinions on. This includes how 'good' or misguided an individual is. Did He not say that all who do not come through Him and by His method were thieves and robbers, no matter what they claimed to have done in His name? There is only one way, given by the Apostle Peter by which we can be saved, and that is through repentance of sin, baptism in the name of Jesus, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

[bbyrd009]

Kind of on topic, at least at this point; what is your view of a hierarchy in NJ? All saints equal or no?

[Jay]

Kind of on topic, at least at this point; what is your view of a hierarchy in NJ? All saints equal or no?

Jesus Christ is the only one in the entire kingdom whose position is actually going to mean anything.

[Cindy]

Verse 11 is stating that God does not care about disability, ability, age, gender, nationality, name, social status, or any other measure that we base our opinions on. This includes how 'good' or misguided an individual is. Did He not say that all who do not come through Him and by His method were thieves and robbers, no matter what they claimed to have done in His name? There is only one way, given by the Apostle Peter by which we can be saved, and that is through repentance of sin, baptism in the name of Jesus, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

:thumbsup

[Aquila]

The scripture says that God gives eternal life to those who continue in well doing and tribulation and anguish to those who do evil. Is this salvation by works?

I also wonder if verse 11 where it says "there is no respect of persons with god" also applies to those who simply believe on Jesus but continue to do evil and those who do not believe on Jesus but continue to do good...

Any thoughts?

The text reads:

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11For there is no respect of persons with God.

We will indeed be judged by our deeds. Even those who are saved in Christ Jesus will be judged according to their deeds and receive reward or suffer loss. Those who are not saved will certainly face judgment with eternal consequences. I'm going to focus in on those of us who are saved.

I believe that we are called to repent of sin and self and turn to Christ. We are to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and filled with the Holy Spirit. We are then to love God with all our hearts and love our neighbours as ourselves. If a man says he loves God and hates his neighbour, he is a liar. Because how can one love God whom he hasn't seen and hate his neighbour whom he has seen? Therefore, we demonstrate our love for God through an absolute agape love towards our neighbors. This love would bring with it sincere care for the individual's well being. We'd not lie about them, steal from them, commit adultery with their wives, covet what they have, etc. This love would also require us to be sensitive to the conscience of weaker brethren in matters such as eating meat sacrificed to idols, holiday customs, styles of dress, alcohol, forms of entertainment, etc. Therefore, through love, we obey the law. Those who lack love will be shown in the evil they commit to their neighbour, and neglect that they demonstrate towards seeking a relationship with God. It has nothing to do with the law... but rather love. A Spirit filled believer is to seek and manifest the fruit of the Spirit:

love
joy
peace
longsuffering
gentleness
goodness
faith
meekness
temperance

The problem with seeking to please God through purely obeying the law is... no one need to love their neighbour to obey rules. For example, I might choose not to steal from my neighbor... but it doesn't mean that I love them. Also, to live by law demands the question of "Which laws?" Sabbath laws? Dietary laws? Holiness purity laws of the OT? Dress codes? Hair standards? Head coverings? No television? No secular music? No internet? Etc. From this we get a mass of confusion from the law keepers bickering about which laws must be obeyed and which must not be obeyed. No one can give you a comprehensive list to obey. When I've asked for this list from many legalists on this forum... and they run, they don't respond, they don't offer anything of substance. Why? Because they know that if they put their list down... most will not agree... especially other legalists. lol

So yes, those who are not obedient to the gospel (Acts 2:38) and do not live a life of love, manifesting fruilt, will be cut off from the vine... to them... indignation and wrath.

Who can argue that one must obey the Gospel? Who can argue that there is a law against the fruit of the Spirit? Who can argue that we are not to love? This, as I see it, is an iron clad presentation of Christianity without man made religion and/or legalism.

[Aquila]

Many forget that we are not trying to keep laws... but rather we are trying to mortify the works of the flesh through surrender to the Spirit (repentance) and through Christlike love. The works of the flesh are (Galatians 5:19-21):

sexual immorality
impurity
sensuality,
idolatry
sorcery
enmity
strife
jealousy
fits of anger
rivalries
dissensions
divisions
envy
drunkenness
orgies
and things like these.

These are the natural impulses of the flesh, or carnal and sinful nature. Through repentance, partaking in the divine nature, and loving as Christ loved... we are to mortify these behaviors/desires. It has nothing to do with the law. In fact, Jesus is the standard. We are to seek to be like Him. When Christ alone is our standard... we rise above and beyond all that any law could command of us. We must be conformed into the image and likeness of Jesus... not live by laws.

[Aquila]

It is teaching the consistent New Testament message that one must overcome and do the will of God to attain final salvation. It is only contradictory to the false doctrine that one need not do the will of God to enter Heaven.

God's will according to both Grace and Legalism:

Grace: God's will is that we be conformed into the image of Jesus Christ through partaking in the divine nature.

Legalism: God's will is that we live by a code of laws and regulations to be consider holy through our efforts to follow the will of the Spirit.

So... as one can see "God's will" is the crux of the argument.

[Aquila]

The legalist struggles with the concept of spiritual transformation into the likeness of Jesus. Many legalists insist that one cannot be truly conformed into the likeness of Jesus, but rather God has ordained that man should keep various laws to be counted holy and saved. Some legalists insist that in order to become like Christ one must of their own effort and volition obey certain laws or holiness codes. Many choose Messianic holiness codes and are therefore conformed into the image of ancient Israel. Some choose the Ten Commandments, and again are conformed into the image of ancient Israel. Some choose church standards and are conformed into the image and likeness of their church or denomination. Some have personal standards and are thus conformed into the self made image of their own perceived righteousness. The truth is... only through cultivating spiritual oneness with Jesus Himself, and imaging Christ in one's heart and soul can one be conformed into the image of Jesus.

Grace emphasizes that the entire law/along with our old carnal identity was nailed to the cross in Christ. It's finished. Done. Now we must reckon ourselves crucified with Christ, but yet alive in that He is the very life living in us. We are now branches of the vine. We are now in union with Christ, one organism with Jesus. We have an imputed righteousness that we did not earn through this spiritual union with Jesus. It's His righteousness now flowing through us freely, though we do not deserve it. Now we live a life of sanctification. To the legalist sanctification is adherence to more and more codes and laws in order to increase in holiness. To the grace Christian sanctification is becoming more and more like Jesus Christ to increase the reality of HIS holiness in us.

So it all comes down to this...

-Be holy through being one with Jesus.
-Be holy through performance and adherence to various laws as stipulated by a given legalist.

Only one of the above is the will of the Father.

[Aquila]

The very definition of sin is transgression of divine law. It is what we do that decides our eternal fate. You will either commit sin or commit acts of righteousness. We are not all damned; but then again, we are not all heirs of eternal life. We will all be judged by God according to our own conduct.

Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Paul begins Romans 2 by telling those that judge others, that they will also be judged. Just knowing right from wrong, righteousness from sin, is not enough. You must live it. And in living, you will conduct yourself in such a way as to demonstration to God whether you're saved or not.

Ezekiel 18:20-24
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

So that Paul's point is consistent with the teachings of the Apostles and Prophets: yes, you will be judged according to your deeds and conducts. We will all be judged according to the same judgment. And, the whole crux will come down to one very important question:

Were you obedience to the Word of God?

Sin is more than transgression of divine law. Sin is anything in our nature that is contrary to the nature of God. The law serves as a school master to help us grasp the basics as God related to Israel. But even the law is incomplete and imperfect on account of our flesh. For example, the law allowed polygamy. It even demanded that a brother marry his brother's wife to sire children in his brother's name should his brother perish without children... even if the living brother were already married. So in this circumstance... refusal to raise up children to their dead brother is a COMMAND from God. Onan was severely punished for violating this law. So... the law doesn't exactly express God's holiness. It govern's man's sinfulness. God is holier than the law. Jesus is holier than the law. We know polygamy isn't God's will and is against His very nature. So the law was "the stuff" before Jesus. But now that Jesus has come... the law is... eh... insufficient.

The Father's will isn't that you be like ancient Israel. The Father's will is that you be conformed into the image of Jesus through your union with Him.

[Aquila]

I think it is the difference in a Pharisee, lacking Grace/Love,
and those (rare) people that I am aware of,
who never go to church, wouldn't grasp or care about
our conditions for salvation,
yet I cannot imagine in hell.
Ghandi, etc.

Christ alone is Ghandi's judge. Sadly, Ghandi was more like Jesus than most of us. lol

[Aquila]

Wouldn't the gist of these verses be that we have to couple action to our obedience? If you say you believe but will not obey Jesus you are not a real believer.

One can "obey Jesus" and not be a true believer.

[Aquila]

I keep reading about "obedience" and "doing the will of God". It's all spoken of generically like everyone agrees. However, no one is being specific enough. If one must "obey" commandments or laws... what are those commandments and/or laws???

I assure you... almost nobody will agree. lol

Drop the law keeping and commandment seeking. Just seek Jesus and seek to be conformed into His image, partaking in His nature. No pork laws, dress codes, sabbaths, head gear, television mandates, etc. Just Jesus. In this freedom... you'll discover more and more what divine love and grace truly is.

God doesn't want you to be like Israel. So... stop trying to be. lol

[bbyrd009]

Hmm; Amen. This should lead one to personal observances
from a desire to be more conformed, without looking at others',
something like that, yes? To avoid the type of agreement we seek, but God doesn't care about, anyway.

[Aquila]

Hmm; Amen. This should lead one to personal observances
from a desire to be more conformed, without looking at others',
something like that, yes? To avoid the type of agreement we seek, but God doesn't care about, anyway.

Amen.

If all men (and women) are striving to be conformed into the image of Jesus... we can't measure each other by ourselves. Everyone is pressing in, in varying degrees, to be more and more like Jesus.

The only thing I'd caution about "personal observances" is that we not become a law unto our individual selves. Sometimes we make a personal list of rules that we find impressive or interesting. For example, some devout Christians seek a Messianic identity. So they dress, pray, speak, and act like ancient Israel. The danger... they are becoming like ancient Israel... not entirely like Jesus. Jesus found his greatest enemies among the religious order that sought to please God in accordance to some performance. Christianity isn't about "doing" as much much as it is about "being". Be Jesus. He's the standard. He's the example. He's our identity. He's our righteousness. Any novel notion that detracts from being like Christ Himself is spiritually dangerous.

[HRea]

Christ alone is Ghandi's judge. Sadly, Ghandi was more like Jesus than most of us. lol

Gandhi was most definitely NOT like Jesus. I've seen this fanciful reference to Gandhi on AFF a couple of times, and I don't see any part of his life that exemplifies Christ. In this world, he is someone who is held up to be admired, but a closer examination reveals that he was most definitely a "man of this present world". He advocated open rebellion against the ruling authority (albeit peaceful rebellion), Gandhi was a polytheist until his later years when he converted to universalism (will heavy sympathies toward muslims and intolerance for Judaism); he even spoke of Jesus as not being the only son of God.

One can "obey Jesus" and not be a true believer.

One can obey a list and not be a true believer, but I think I see what you were trying to say here.

I keep reading about "obedience" and "doing the will of God". It's all spoken of generically like everyone agrees. However, no one is being specific enough. If one must "obey" commandments or laws... what are those commandments and/or laws???

I assure you... almost nobody will agree. lol

Drop the law keeping and commandment seeking. Just seek Jesus and seek to be conformed into His image, partaking in His nature. No pork laws, dress codes, sabbaths, head gear, television mandates, etc. Just Jesus. In this freedom... you'll discover more and more what divine love and grace truly is.

God doesn't want you to be like Israel. So... stop trying to be. lol

Should we throw away the printed Bible, all written teachings and admonitions? I cannot agree with trashing the written teachings of Jesus Christ, the prophets, and the apostles. These are our very foundation. There is a spirit that advocates "seeking Jesus outside of the Word", but this spirit also rejects the authority of the written Word.

Is it Grace (effectual working of the power of God in us) versus Legalism (adherence to the written Word)...or is it that the question is phrased to bring about a conflict between the two where God did not intended for any to exist? I have never advocated the rejection of Grace for returning to the OT Law; however, there is much to gain from the written Word, as is also in the discovery of Grace and in Justification by Faith.

[bbyrd009]

[QUOTE=Aquila;1158891]...The only thing I'd caution about "personal observances" is that we not become a law unto our individual selves. Sometimes we make a personal list of rules that we find impressive or interesting. For example, some devout Christians seek a Messianic identity. So they dress, pray, speak, and act like ancient Israel...[QUOTE]

Ya, gross? I'm sure that disagrees with Scripture somewhere, and there should be no disagreement--with Scripture?

[bbyrd009]

1)... He advocated open rebellion against the ruling authority (albeit peaceful rebellion)...2)Jesus as not being the only son of God...3) I cannot agree with trashing the written teachings of Jesus Christ, the prophets, and the apostles. These are our very foundation...4)Is it Grace (effectual working of the power of God in us) versus Legalism (adherence to the written Word)...or is it that the question is phrased to bring about a conflict between the two where God did not intended for any to exist? I have never advocated the rejection of Grace for returning to the OT Law; however, there is much to gain from the written Word, as is also in the discovery of Grace and in Justification by Faith.

1) Hmm,. sounds just like what Christ advoc'ed!
2) Melchezidek
3) Read with third eye.
4) "Vs." is where we are 3rd eye-blind. imo.

[Aquila]

Gandhi was most definitely NOT like Jesus. I've seen this fanciful reference to Gandhi on AFF a couple of times, and I don't see any part of his life that exemplifies Christ. In this world, he is someone who is held up to be admired, but a closer examination reveals that he was most definitely a "man of this present world". He advocated open rebellion against the ruling authority (albeit peaceful rebellion), Gandhi was a polytheist until his later years when he converted to universalism (will heavy sympathies toward muslims and intolerance for Judaism); he even spoke of Jesus as not being the only son of God.
Gandhi advocated peaceful rebellion against an oppressive empire. Gandhi advocated absolute peace to the point of martyrdom. Yes, Gandhi wasn’t exactly like Christ. However, in some ways, he was more like Christ than many of us.
One can obey a list and not be a true believer, but I think I see what you were trying to say here.
True. I’d also add that one could obey a list and think they are a true believer and not be.
Should we throw away the printed Bible, all written teachings and admonitions? I cannot agree with trashing the written teachings of Jesus Christ, the prophets, and the apostles. These are our very foundation. There is a spirit that advocates "seeking Jesus outside of the Word", but this spirit also rejects the authority of the written Word.
I agree with you. There are many “teachings” in Scripture. Teachings concerning prayer, forgiveness, peace, fasting, the spreading of the Gospel, etc. However, the fundamental foundation of these teachings is… love.
Is it Grace (effectual working of the power of God in us) versus Legalism (adherence to the written Word)...or is it that the question is phrased to bring about a conflict between the two where God did not intended for any to exist? I have never advocated the rejection of Grace for returning to the OT Law; however, there is much to gain from the written Word, as is also in the discovery of Grace and in Justification by Faith.
Yep, you missed the entire point. I firmly believe that a sound study of the Scripture will illustrate the disciplines and practices we are to embrace because of love.

[bbyrd009]

...I firmly believe that a sound study of the Scripture will illustrate the disciplines and practices we are to embrace because of love.

So like, shaving my beard if I were (for some strange reason) going to go to a UPS church, to avoid offending, v growing a beard first, before I went, which would (def) be my natch inclination.

[Aquila]

...The only thing I'd caution about "personal observances" is that we not become a law unto our individual selves. Sometimes we make a personal list of rules that we find impressive or interesting. For example, some devout Christians seek a Messianic identity. So they dress, pray, speak, and act like ancient Israel...

Ya, gross? I'm sure that disagrees with Scripture somewhere, and there should be no disagreement--with Scripture?

No, there should be no disagreement with Scripture. The point is with reference to legalism.


Matthew 15:10-12
10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Mark 12:29-31 (KJV)
29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Galatians 5:14 (ESV)
14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Here's my point. Let's say someone believes we have to obey the Ten Commandments to be saved (ERROR). That means one can choose to have no other God's in their life but God, not make idols, not blaspheme the name of God, and worship on the seventh day. But that doesn't mean that the person "loves God", they are merely religious. One can honor their father and mother, it doesn't mean that they "love" them. One can refrain from stealing from, killing, lying to, committing adultery against, and coveting what is their neighbour's...but it doesn't mean that they "love" their neighbor. One can go forth and try to add members to their church by "sharing the Gospel"...but I've seen people do this and not "love" the people they are witnessing to.

However, if one truly loves the Lord... they will only worship and adore Him. They will not make idols. They will not blasphem His name. They will honor their parents. They will not steal from, kill, lie to, commit adultery against, or covet with regards to their neighbour. All of this is just second nature.

To go a step further... one demonstrates their love for God by loving their neighbour... not in rule keeping or "commandment" keeping. It all boils down to love.

All of this is in view of the ultimate aim... to be conformed into the image and likeness of Jesus Himself. To enjoy our oneness with Him in the Spirit. As we surrender and allow Christ to live His life and love out through us, we bear spiritual fruit. Those are:

love
joy
peace
longsuffering
gentleness
goodness
faith
meekness
temperance

Our enemy is the flesh. From the flesh we have impulses towards these selfish and unloving works:

sexual immorality
impurity
sensuality,
idolatry
sorcery
enmity
strife
jealousy
fits of anger
rivalries
dissensions
divisions
envy
drunkenness
orgies
and things like these

When we feel the impulse to engage in such behaviors it's because we've ceased to abide in Christ's love (that love for Christ that resonates within us, and that love of Christ that is to pour out from us). We've taken our eyes off of being conformed into the image of Christ and we are drifting back into pleasing the flesh... self.

So, it's my opinion that it's all grounded in love and transformation. A love for God exemplified through Christ's love for others flowing through us. An progression into greater and greater Christlikeness.

Jesus is the standard. Don't worry about a list of rules. Just... be Jesus.

[HRea]

1) Hmm,. sounds just like what Christ advoc'ed!
2) Melchezidek
3) Read with third eye.
4) "Vs." is where we are 3rd eye-blind. imo.

1) Jesus never advocated rebellion against the Roman government.
2) Melchizedek was the priest of the most high God; however it was the same God.
3 & 4) third eye (blind) as in inner enlightenment or the alternative rock band? If you mean enlightenment - only by the Holy Spirit can we understand the mysteries of God. We cannot achieve this by our own endeavors, we need the Spirit to reveal these things to us. If you meant the rock band, Jesus is the Rock not the band - although He did sing an hymn at the Last Supper.

[Aquila]

So like, shaving my beard if I were (for some strange reason) going to go to a UPS church, to avoid offending, v growing a beard first, before I went, which would (def) be my natch inclination.

Yes. If you plan on attending a church wherein beards are an offense, because of your love for the weaker brethren (because we know a beard is nothing, even Jesus had a beard) you'd shave and not wear one as long as you choose to attend there. However, it's sad that some churches have decended into such a legalistic mess that something like a beard even shows up on radar.

[Aquila]

1) Jesus never advocated rebellion against the Roman government.
2) Melchizedek was the priest of the most high God; however it was the same God.
3 & 4) third eye (blind) as in inner enlightenment or the alternative rock band? If you mean enlightenment - only by the Holy Spirit can we understand the mysteries of God. We cannot achieve this by our own endeavors, we need the Spirit to reveal these things to us. If you meant the rock band, Jesus is the Rock not the band - although He did sing an hymn at the Last Supper.

LOL

[Aquila]

1) Jesus never advocated rebellion against the Roman government.

No, Jesus never advocated rebellion. However, Jesus did teach that believers were part of another Kingdom. And it was the loyalty to this heavenly Kingdom that Rome saw as treason...especially when it came to a Christian's burning incense to the emperor as a god or a Christians refusal to kill as part of military service.

[bbyrd009]

1) Jesus never advocated rebellion against the Roman government.
2) Melchizedek was the priest of the most high God; however it was the same God.
3 & 4) third eye (blind) as in inner enlightenment or the alternative rock band? If you mean enlightenment - only by the Holy Spirit can we understand the mysteries of God. We cannot achieve this by our own endeavors, we need the Spirit to reveal these things to us. If you meant the rock band, Jesus is the Rock not the band - although He did sing an hymn at the Last Supper.

1) Hmm, yet they killed Him nonetheless; and He did advocate "rebellion" (as far as they were concerned) against the extant "Gov," which was (primarily, to them) the Est'd church?
2) Diff Jesus, tho. A Son of God.
3) the first one.

[bbyrd009]

I'd like to see this "Grace versus Law" thing addressed;
which is I guess what we're doing...

So, when do I call you out for your sin
in the crowd, and when does that become
removing splinters?

[rgcraig]

So like, shaving my beard if I were (for some strange reason) going to go to a UPS church, to avoid offending, v growing a beard first, before I went, which would (def) be my natch inclination.

A UPS church? :heeheehee

[HRea]

Gandhi advocated peaceful rebellion against an oppressive empire. Gandhi advocated absolute peace to the point of martyrdom. Yes, Gandhi wasn’t exactly like Christ. However, in some ways, he was more like Christ than many of us.

Maybe we're talking about two different Gandhi's - the one I'm referring to was very politically active in India during British colonial rule and partitioning, advocated (peaceful) rebellion against an earthly government, was a racist (until he was imprisoned in South Africa), was killed for championing reparation payments to Pakistani muslims, and never advocated absolute peace (inner or otherwise).

True. I’d also add that one could obey a list and think they are a true believer and not be.

Exactly, this is where many "believers" are. With lists of do's and don'ts, there is a generational tendency to develop a relationship with the list instead of the Writer of the list. The pharisees fell into this trap, and it happens too often today.

Yep, you missed the entire point. I firmly believe that a sound study of the Scripture will illustrate the disciplines and practices we are to embrace because of love.

Perhaps, I did.

[HRea]

I'd like to see this "Grace versus Law" thing addressed;
which is I guess what we're doing...

So, when do I call you out for your sin
in the crowd, and when does that become
removing splinters?

1) If you're my Savior and your goal is to save my soul, call me out anytime.
2) If you're my brother/sister and your goal is to restore my soul, call me out privately.
3) If you're neither and your goal is simply to condemn me, visit an open field and call to your heart's content.

[aegsm76]

A UPS church? :heeheehee

Now that's funny!!!
I can see the uniform for that church, pretty clearly!