Authority of Pastors

[High & Low]

I heard a WPF pastor say that a Woman should follow her husband as he follows Christ. But if her husband isn't living right, she should follow the Pastor. .....I know WPF is an organization that puts Pastors on a pedestal. Someone please tell me where there is Scripture that gives Pastors so much control and authority. ....please don't waste your time,....just tell me WHY Pastors think they have full authority over their congregants and why they believe God only speaks to them regarding certain situations and when a person says they have prayed about it and that answer is contrary to what the Pastor told them, the Pastor tells them that they didn't hear from God and to keep praying about it.

Scripture says the gifts and calling of God are without Repentance. My feel of things is that God can speak thru anybody for the sake of his people, but that even tho there are many many proclaimed Men of God, there are really very few true Men of God. Any thoughts?

[Sam]

The word "pastor" (singular form) does not not appear in our KJV New Testament. It occurs once in the plural form in Ephesians 4:11 where it is listed with apostles, prophets, evangelists, and teachers as gifts that God has given to the Church. The word "poimen" translated pastors in Ephesians 4:11 is translated "shepherd" in the other places it occurs as single or plural nouns and also as a verb as in "to shepherd" the flock.

Offices in the church are episkopos (translated bishop or overseer) and presbyteros (translated) elder. In reading 1 Timothy and Titus it seems the terms are used interchangeably but episkopos was translated "bishop" in the KJV because the KJV was intended to support the English/Anglican Catholic Church and their system of government and doctrine. Elder has more reference to the experience, growth and maturity of the person and overseer/bishop refers more to the position of authority.

In the book of Acts when Paul was on his way to Jerusalem it says he sent to Ephesus for the "elders" to meet with him as he was passing that way. The meeting is spoken of in Acts 20:17-38 and is thought to have happened in late April of AD 57. Paul wanted to be in Jerusalem which would have been May 28 that year. These leaders are called elders/presbyteros in verse 17. When Paul speaks to them he calls them overseers/episkopos and says they are to feed (poimen or shepherd or pastor) the flock.

The term overseer signifies some authority. In 1 Timothy 5:17 Paul speaks about elders ruling. In Hebrews 13:7 it speaks about "them that have the rule over you" who have spoken unto you the Word of God. To me this seems to mean the elders/bishops/overseers/pastors/shepherds who have been placed over us and who teach us. In Hebrews 13:17 we are told to "obey them that have the rule over you and submit your selves." In 1 Peter 5:1- the Apostle Peter calls himself an elder and addresses the elders. He tells them to "poimen" (feed/shepherd/pastor) the flock and to take "the oversight thereof" so that indicates a position of authority in my opinion.

Based on the above it is my opinion that God has placed elders/bishops/overseers/pastors/shepherds in the body in positions of authority and responsibility and we are to "obey" them.

I do not think we are to blindly obey every whim or idiosyncrasy they may put forth but only submit to them and their teaching as long as they follow Christ and His Word.

I am almost 75 years old. I have been a Christian for over half a century. My pastor is the age of my children. Yet, because he is my pastor I believe I am to "submit" to him or "obey" him. I would not preach or teach anything to anyone who is part of that congregation that would contradict what he teaches/preaches. If I know ahead of time that I will not be in a service on the weekend or midweek or in weekend outreach I let him know. If I am going to preach somewhere I let him know. This is not to get his permission but just respect for the office he holds and position of authority over me.

Submission of a church member to a pastor is to be like submission of a wife to her husband. It is to be voluntary and done with an attitude of respect. It is to be done with love and not a sense of fear. And the authority is to be motivated by the same self-denying, compassionate, and empathetic love that Jesus has toward the church.

[RandyWayne]

Some may consider me the King of "pastor bashing" here, or at least a 2nd cousin to the Prince (I am hyper alert to what I perceive as abuse and control issues in church leadership), but that is a good balanced answer Sam.

[DaveC519]

The word "pastor" (singular form) does not not appear in our KJV New Testament. It occurs once in the plural form in Ephesians 4:11 where it is listed with apostles, prophets, evangelists, and teachers as gifts that God has given to the Church. The word "poimen" translated pastors in Ephesians 4:11 is translated "shepherd" in the other places it occurs as single or plural nouns and also as a verb as in "to shepherd" the flock.

Offices in the church are episkopos (translated bishop or overseer) and presbyteros (translated) elder. In reading 1 Timothy and Titus it seems the terms are used interchangeably but episkopos was translated "bishop" in the KJV because the KJV was intended to support the English/Anglican Catholic Church and their system of government and doctrine. Elder has more reference to the experience, growth and maturity of the person and overseer/bishop refers more to the position of authority.

In the book of Acts when Paul was on his way to Jerusalem it says he sent to Ephesus for the "elders" to meet with him as he was passing that way. The meeting is spoken of in Acts 20:17-38 and is thought to have happened in late April of AD 57. Paul wanted to be in Jerusalem which would have been May 28 that year. These leaders are called elders/presbyteros in verse 17. When Paul speaks to them he calls them overseers/episkopos and says they are to feed (poimen or shepherd or pastor) the flock.

The term overseer signifies some authority. In 1 Timothy 5:17 Paul speaks about elders ruling. In Hebrews 13:7 it speaks about "them that have the rule over you" who have spoken unto you the Word of God. To me this seems to mean the elders/bishops/overseers/pastors/shepherds who have been placed over us and who teach us. In Hebrews 13:17 we are told to "obey them that have the rule over you and submit your selves." In 1 Peter 5:1- the Apostle Peter calls himself an elder and addresses the elders. He tells them to "poimen" (feed/shepherd/pastor) the flock and to take "the oversight thereof" so that indicates a position of authority in my opinion.

Based on the above it is my opinion that God has placed elders/bishops/overseers/pastors/shepherds in the body in positions of authority and responsibility and we are to "obey" them.

I do not think we are to blindly obey every whim or idiosyncrasy they may put forth but only submit to them and their teaching as long as they follow Christ and His Word.

I am almost 75 years old. I have been a Christian for over half a century. My pastor is the age of my children. Yet, because he is my pastor I believe I am to "submit" to him or "obey" him. I would not preach or teach anything to anyone who is part of that congregation that would contradict what he teaches/preaches. If I know ahead of time that I will not be in a service on the weekend or midweek or in weekend outreach I let him know. If I am going to preach somewhere I let him know. This is not to get his permission but just respect for the office he holds and position of authority over me.

Submission of a church member to a pastor is to be like submission of a wife to her husband. It is to be voluntary and done with an attitude of respect. It is to be done with love and not a sense of fear. And the authority is to be motivated by the same self-denying, compassionate, and empathetic love that Jesus has toward the church.
:thumbsup A good, reasoned response!

[acerrak]

Hebrews 13:17 we are told to "obey them that have the rule over you

though sam the word obey really isnt translated from the greek like it should be. it is more like be Persuaded by, instead of Obey

[trialedbyfire]

The word "pastor" (singular form) does not not appear in our KJV New Testament. It occurs once in the plural form in Ephesians 4:11 where it is listed with apostles, prophets, evangelists, and teachers as gifts that God has given to the Church. The word "poimen" translated pastors in Ephesians 4:11 is translated "shepherd" in the other places it occurs as single or plural nouns and also as a verb as in "to shepherd" the flock.

Offices in the church are episkopos (translated bishop or overseer) and presbyteros (translated) elder. In reading 1 Timothy and Titus it seems the terms are used interchangeably but episkopos was translated "bishop" in the KJV because the KJV was intended to support the English/Anglican Catholic Church and their system of government and doctrine. Elder has more reference to the experience, growth and maturity of the person and overseer/bishop refers more to the position of authority.

In the book of Acts when Paul was on his way to Jerusalem it says he sent to Ephesus for the "elders" to meet with him as he was passing that way. The meeting is spoken of in Acts 20:17-38 and is thought to have happened in late April of AD 57. Paul wanted to be in Jerusalem which would have been May 28 that year. These leaders are called elders/presbyteros in verse 17. When Paul speaks to them he calls them overseers/episkopos and says they are to feed (poimen or shepherd or pastor) the flock.

The term overseer signifies some authority. In 1 Timothy 5:17 Paul speaks about elders ruling. In Hebrews 13:7 it speaks about "them that have the rule over you" who have spoken unto you the Word of God. To me this seems to mean the elders/bishops/overseers/pastors/shepherds who have been placed over us and who teach us. In Hebrews 13:17 we are told to "obey them that have the rule over you and submit your selves." In 1 Peter 5:1- the Apostle Peter calls himself an elder and addresses the elders. He tells them to "poimen" (feed/shepherd/pastor) the flock and to take "the oversight thereof" so that indicates a position of authority in my opinion.

Based on the above it is my opinion that God has placed elders/bishops/overseers/pastors/shepherds in the body in positions of authority and responsibility and we are to "obey" them.

I do not think we are to blindly obey every whim or idiosyncrasy they may put forth but only submit to them and their teaching as long as they follow Christ and His Word.

I am almost 75 years old. I have been a Christian for over half a century. My pastor is the age of my children. Yet, because he is my pastor I believe I am to "submit" to him or "obey" him. I would not preach or teach anything to anyone who is part of that congregation that would contradict what he teaches/preaches. If I know ahead of time that I will not be in a service on the weekend or midweek or in weekend outreach I let him know. If I am going to preach somewhere I let him know. This is not to get his permission but just respect for the office he holds and position of authority over me.

Submission of a church member to a pastor is to be like submission of a wife to her husband. It is to be voluntary and done with an attitude of respect. It is to be done with love and not a sense of fear. And the authority is to be motivated by the same self-denying, compassionate, and empathetic love that Jesus has toward the church.

Probably one of the best responses I've heard on this.

[deafdriscoll]

I follow only words that line up with the word of God in contex.

[Sam]

I follow only words that line up with the word of God in contex.

good policy

[The Matt]

I heard a WPF pastor say that a Woman should follow her husband as he follows Christ. But if her husband isn't living right, she should follow the Pastor. .....I know WPF is an organization that puts Pastors on a pedestal. Someone please tell me where there is Scripture that gives Pastors so much control and authority. ....please don't waste your time,....just tell me WHY Pastors think they have full authority over their congregants and why they believe God only speaks to them regarding certain situations and when a person says they have prayed about it and that answer is contrary to what the Pastor told them, the Pastor tells them that they didn't hear from God and to keep praying about it.

Scripture says the gifts and calling of God are without Repentance. My feel of things is that God can speak thru anybody for the sake of his people, but that even tho there are many many proclaimed Men of God, there are really very few true Men of God. Any thoughts?

Didn't Paul have full authority over his church? He was the original pastor.

[Cindy]

Why does a woman have to follow her husband? Why can't she follow Christ on her own? I don't think most Pastor's feel they have full authority over people's lives. I hope most of them think they are shepherds that guide their flock.

[Sam]

Quite a few years ago I was at a convention of The Church of Jesus Christ Pentecostal Faith(CoJCPF) in Cincinnati, OH. The host church was The Church of Jesus Christ pastored by Eld. Eugene Shafer. I don't remember just when this was. I think it was during the 1960's. I did hold license with that organization for a while in the 1960's but I don't remember if the license was current at that time or not. Some time in the 1960's (1963/64) we left the UPC church were attending and started going to an ALJC church. We continued at that ALJC church until the late 1970's.

At the time of the convention in Cincinnati there may have been as many as three local churches (all small) which were pastored by CoJCPF ministers. These pastors were Bishop James Hughes, Elder Eugene Shafer, and Eld. Douglas Charles. I had preached in all three of these churches at some time or another. None of them exist any longer.

At that time, Bishop G.R. Brock was the Presiding Bishop of the organization and Sis. Alta Johnson was the Secretary. Bishop Brock pastored a church in indianapolis, IN and Sis Johnson pastored a church in Niles, MI. Sis Johnson was a Bible teacher who taught from charts. She became pastor of the church in Niles after her husband, who was the pastor, died.

Sis. Johnson was teaching at the convention and something came up about wives being submissive and obedience to their husbands. She told of one preacher who said, "If I wash my feet in a pan of water and tell my wife to drink it she has to obey me." Sis. Johnson said that when he said that she just answered, "Would you?" I don't remember is she told us what his response was or not.

[hometown guy]

Why does a woman have to follow her husband? Why can't she follow Christ on her own? I don't think most Pastor's feel they have full authority over people's lives. I hope most of them think they are shepherds that guide their flock.

cause that's how God ordained it. The women are the weaker vessels.

[Nitehawk013]

cause that's how God ordained it. The women are the weaker vessels.

:spit

That ought to really get the posts flowing in this thread.

[acerrak]

cause that's how God ordained it. The women are the weaker vessels.

they definatly are not the weaker vessel, never is that stated in scripture. The reasdon women follow man is because they came from Man.

However God ordained elders and biships to be pastors, to be under shepherd.

something that was to be considerd a verb (pastoring) which edlers should do has become a Noun and a title.

Women are to submit to there husbands, if they have no husband common since says they dont have a husband to submit to therefore Christ is there Head......

[hometown guy]

they definatly are not the weaker vessel, never is that stated in scripture. The reasdon women follow man is because they came from Man.

However God ordained elders and biships to be pastors, to be under shepherd.

something that was to be considerd a verb (pastoring) which edlers should do has become a Noun and a title.

Women are to submit to there husbands, if they have no husband common since says they dont have a husband to submit to therefore Christ is there Head......


Likewise, you husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honor unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

[Nitehawk013]

I Peter 3:7 kinda makes the case they ARE the weaker vessel. Just sayin'.

[acerrak]

I Peter 3:7 kinda makes the case they ARE the weaker vessel. Just sayin'.

guess i was wrong, I apologize, though lets substitute the meaning of the greek word into its place and see what it comes up with.

with out strength frail, feeble, sickly, unimpressive.
does that describe your wife?

what is making her the weaker vessel? physical strength or is the lack of wisdom and knowledge?

[Praxeas]

guess i was wrong, I apologize, though lets substitute the meaning of the greek word into its place and see what it comes up with.

with out strength frail, feeble, sickly, unimpressive.
does that describe your wife?

what is making her the weaker vessel? physical strength or is the lack of wisdom and knowledge?
Acerrak, you can't just take any definition and plug it in where you want. In this case most to all translations translate the word as "weaker"

For example the same greek word is used here Mat 26:41 Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

[RandyWayne]

guess i was wrong, I apologize, though lets substitute the meaning of the greek word into its place and see what it comes up with.

with out strength frail, feeble, sickly, unimpressive.
does that describe your wife?

what is making her the weaker vessel? physical strength or is the lack of wisdom and knowledge?



It is a biological fact that women, on average, are smaller and weaker -we don't need scripture to say it. As a result it has always been the case that the man act as the protector, in a physical sense, over his wife (and children). If a woman doesn't HAVE a husband then she needs to get herself a gun to equalize things. :)

[Praxeas]

DON'T FORGET SILLY ....WOMEN ARE SILLY LIKE DAT SAYS PAUL

2Ti 3:6 For of these are those who creep into houses and lead captive silly women loaded with sins, led away with different kinds of lusts,

[Cindy]

cause that's how God ordained it. The women are the weaker vessels.

So my husband will give account for me at judgement? I can't follow Christ or have a relationship of my own?

[Cindy]

DON'T FORGET SILLY ....WOMEN ARE SILLY LIKE DAT SAYS PAUL

2Ti 3:6 For of these are those who creep into houses and lead captive silly women loaded with sins, led away with different kinds of lusts,


Yeah, right. Like I believe Paul used the word SILLY.

[Amanah]

:gaga silly silly :tease

[acerrak]

okok okokoko i said i was wrong and apologized,....

but i got to admit i laughed at this..

DON'T FORGET SILLY ....WOMEN ARE SILLY LIKE DAT SAYS PAUL

2Ti 3:6 For of these are those who creep into houses and lead captive silly women loaded with sins, led away with different kinds of lusts,