Voting for Mormon Romney is Betraying Jesus Christ

[darrmad]

http://www.usachristianministries.com/2012/01/19/voting-for-mormon-romney-is-betraying-jesus-christ/

Jesus Christ loves you. He died a sacrificial death on the cross to forgive your sins. Would you vote for someone who misleads people about Jesus?

As you learn what Mormons believe, you will see Mormons are not Christians. Voting for Mormon Mitt Romney is betraying Jesus Christ our Savior because Romney is not a Christian and opposes Jesus Christ. Do you also know that God warns Americans will be harmed for voting for a Mormon or a non-Christian (2 Chronicles 19:2, Psalm 1)? Look at this Christian versus Mormon analysis:



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Five Mormon Cult Errors

1) Mormons Deny God

Jesus Christ is the second Person of the Godhead. Mormons teach Jesus Christ is the spirit brother of Lucifer, a created being.
The Holy Bible is the inerrant Word of God. Mormons use non-Biblical books.
God alone is God. Mormons teach men become Gods and God was once a man.
2) Mormons Preach a Different Gospel
Paul, the apostle, warns, “But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:9). The book of Mormon was given by an angel.

3) Mormons Hide the Cross
The Holy Bible says, “The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing” (1 Corinthians 1:18). Mormons do not display the cross in their buildings.

4) Mormons Have Occult Practice
Christians trust in Jesus Christ to protect them, and God’s Word gives Christians power over sin. Mormons think “magic” underwear with markings helps them.

5) Mormons are Anti-Christian
Jesus Christ said, whoever believes in Him will be saved (John 3:16). Mormons deny the real Jesus Christ. They are exclusive and teach that Christians are apostate.

If you have believed errors about God, will you repent today? God is just a prayer away. You can draw near to Him now.

God Warns non-Christians Romney and Obama Harm Americans

[Sam]

we're voting for a president, not a pastor

[Pressing-On]

we're voting for a president, not a pastor

Not a pastor in the sense of a state or national controlled religion - totally different than mere Christianity. That was the issue with separation of church and state.

I think we do need to be careful who we vote for - Psa 33:12 "Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance."

John Gill says, "Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord,.... Who have an interest in such a wonder working God, both in creation and in providence, and especially in grace: which, though it may have a principal regard to the nation of Israel, whose God he was in a very distinguishing manner, yet must not be limited to them; for he is the God of the Gentiles also:"

It strikes me as particularly interesting that or Founding Father's attested to the fact that this nation was given to us by the hand of Providence. And while America did not have a Christian Founding in the sense of creating a theocracy, its Founding was deeply shaped by Christian moral truths. That is not a state religion, but a universal belief in God Almighty.

I don't consider Mormonism mainstream Christianity. Our country was founded on Judeo/Christian principles.

When I read Article Six of the Constitution - "...but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States", I think back to Thomas Jefferson and remember his quote - "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

When he drafted The Bill for Religious Freedom in 1777, the Anglican Church was officially recognized as the state religion in Virginia. The draft was enacted in 1785, while Jefferson was in Paris, France.

Jefferson was especially hostile to the Catholic Church because of his time spent in France. It is my belief that the "no religious Test shall ever be required as a qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States", refers to a "one" religion, i.e. Catholic or Anglican Church type example. I don't believe it had anything to with religious views outside of Christianity. It just doesn't make sense as colleges and school text were based on the Bible.

The Virginia Act For Establishing Religious Freedom
Thomas Jefferson, 1786

"Well aware that Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burdens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion, who being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do; that the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others,..."

The three writers of the Federalist Papers claim their Christian heritage and beliefs.

John Jay spoke of his Christian faith. Jay shared an experience he had, in France, with some atheists. ""On one occasion I was at a party with several atheists. They spoke freely and contemptuously of religion. During the course of it, one of them asked me if I believed in Christ. I answered that I did, and that I thanked God that I did. Nothing further passed between me and them or any of them on that subject."

Before Alexander Hamilton died, he had plans to establish an organization that would preserve the basic values of Christianity and the Constitution. He was going to call the organization - The Christian Constitutional Society.

James Madison was a seminary student. He studied under Rev. John Witherspoon.

When these men studied law, they studied it from the premise of a higher law which all human law must conform. They studied Blackstone who stressed a higher law in God.

So, back to what I believe they were saying is based on their experiences with religion in France and England, they had a very poor opinion of orthodox Christianity. For instance, the founders of Massachusetts Bay and Connecticut instituted religious establishments—arrangements by which the civil government favored one church and penalized anyone who dissented from its teachings.

Giving the reigns of this country to any person, regardless, of their religious beliefs is a dangerous move, IMO.

[Sam]

Many of the founding fathers of this country were "religious" men and held to the idea of a state religion like the Anglican Church of England. Others were religious men who held views different than the Anglican Church and had been persecuted by the state church and did not want to go back into something like that. Others were criminals wanting a new start and some who indentured themselves as servants/slaves to get a new life in the new world.

The "religious" or "Christian" folks soon displayed their style of Christianity by:
--persecuting Roger Williams because he believed in baptism by immersion and had to flee to Rhode Island and establish a new colony.
--the Salem witch trials
--the doctrine of Manifest Destiny" i.e. the idea that God created this new world for WASP's (White Anglo Saxon Protestants) and it was our divine duty to kill off all the Native Americans and send them to hell through policies of genocide and ethnic cleansing.

The first century church was persecuted by the government but was admonished to pray for their leaders. The 21st century church often preaches a doctrine of establishing some kind of a theocracy and forcing their religious/moral/ethical laws on everyone regardless of their religion or lack of religion.

[tv1a]

I would vote for Romney.

[houston]

And voting for Bama is also betraying ....?????

[Dordrecht]

It's like Sam said, we vote for a president not a pastor/preacher.

[aegsm76]

Let me ask all of the deep thinkers that are not voting for Romney, because he is Mormon, a question.
Have you ever, ever, voted for a non-Christian before?
If you have and you are now using this as a reason to not vote for Romney, you are not consistent.
I would consider you hypocritical.
If you only vote for "Christians", then how do you determine that?
If you are oneness, do you vote for trinitarians?
Is that not the same thing?

When you make your litmus test to be only voting for those who believe as you do, you make your choices really small.
Provided you are being consistent.

[aegsm76]

PO - it is interesting that you quote Jefferson.
Since part of why you are not voting for Romney is his religion, let me ask you if you would vote for Jefferson?
Jefferson was a virtual apostate, who denied the virgin birth, denied any of the miracles performed by Jesus and denied the resurrection.
Even so, he was a great patriot, President and visonary.

[Timmy]

PO - it is interesting that you quote Jefferson.
Since part of why you are not voting for Romney is his religion, let me ask you if you would vote for Jefferson?
Jefferson was a virtual apostate, who denied the virgin birth, denied any of the miracles performed by Jesus and denied the resurrection.
Even so, he was a great patriot, President and visonary.

And a beer brewer. ;)

[Pressing-On]

Let me ask all of the deep thinkers that are not voting for Romney, because he is Mormon, a question.
Have you ever, ever, voted for a non-Christian before?
If you have and you are now using this as a reason to not vote for Romney, you are not consistent.
I would consider you hypocritical.
If you only vote for "Christians", then how do you determine that?
If you are oneness, do you vote for trinitarians?
Is that not the same thing?

When you make your litmus test to be only voting for those who believe as you do, you make your choices really small.
Provided you are being consistent.

I am very skeptical of those trying to re-write history.

Jefferson was raised in the Anglican Church and came to distrust organized religion. Jefferson wrote bills that were designed to assure religious freedom and to abolish the special privileges of the Anglican Church in Virginia.

Virginia disestablished the Anglican Church in 1776. It took the church's clergymen off the public payroll and exempted Virginians from paying taxes to support the church.

After all, the reason the Pilgrims and Purists came to America is because, in the 1500s England broke away from the Roman Catholic Church and created a new church called the Church of England. Everyone in England had to belong to the church. This is exactly what Jefferson opposed.

He wrote his own epitaph, in his old age, and said this, "Here was buried Thomas Jefferson , author of the Declaration of Independence, of the Statute of Virginia for religious freedom, and father of the University of Virginia."

And, in his old age, he also wrote, "To love God with all thy heart and thy neighbor as thyself is the sum of religion."

The Virginia Act For Establishing Religious Freedom
Thomas Jefferson, 1786

"Well aware that Almighty God hath created the mind free; that all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burdens, or by civil incapacitations, tend only to beget habits of hypocrisy and meanness, and are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion, who being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by coercions on either, as was in his Almighty power to do; that the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others,..."

To call Jefferson an "apostate" is truly a stretch. No, it is actually a distortion of his views.

[MissBrattified]

I really couldn't care less that Romney is Mormon. It won't affect my voting decision whatsoever. I would have been LESS likely to vote for Santorum, even though I admire his conservative values, because I believe he would have let his religion interfere with his ability to govern. Leaders of this country will be better leaders if they are believers, yes. However, they are to govern according to our constitution and laws--not by scripture. I want a godly leader who intelligently rules according to the laws as they exist and strives to change those laws that are unacceptable--morally and constitutionally.

Polarizing statements like the title of this thread only serve to hurt people and stifle real discussion.

[Pressing-On]

Leaders of this country will be better leaders if they are believers, yes. However, they are to govern according to our constitution and laws--not by scripture.


Anyone unbiased of history knows that our Founding Father's constructed our Constitution and the Declaration of Independence from Biblical principles. So, I think it would be best to say that "extremism" is what our Founding Father's didn't want in our leaders. Which is probably your point with Santorum.

[TJJJ]

Oh my......

That is why, living here in Utah like I do, I NEVER vote for those anti-Christ people!


Mormon demons everywhere so I hide my head in the ground and hope god, I mean Obama will make everything all right!

[tv1a]

Jefferson also had an affinity for slave women.

And a beer brewer. ;)

[Pressing-On]

Jefferson also had an affinity for slave women.

I watched a documentary the other day that said the rumor was started but there really isn't proof that would hold up today in court. It's still a long standing controversy.

[Pressing-On]

Oh my......

That is why, living here in Utah like I do, I NEVER vote for those anti-Christ people!


Mormon demons everywhere so I hide my head in the ground and hope god, I mean Obama will make everything all right!
LOL!

[tv1a]

I have a personal conviction if someone says I should do business with them because he or she is a christian. I walk away from the table. A christian shouldn't use their relationship with Christ as bargaining chip. I would have voted for Rick Santorum, Herman Cain, Newt Gingrich over Mitt Romney. I'll vote for MR over BO any day.

[tv1a]

A court recently awarded a monetary settlement to people who claimed they were descendants of Jefferson. It was big news a few years ago.

I watched a documentary the other day that said the rumor was started but there really isn't proof that would hold up today in court. It's still a long standing controversy.

[Pressing-On]

A court recently awarded a monetary settlement to people who claimed they were descendants of Jefferson. It was big news a few years ago.

Well, after I viewed the documentary, it didn't make sense to me. If people were awarded a monetary settlement, whatever. More power to them. LOL!

[CC1]

The title of this thread is absurd and insulting. Oh, and just plain wrong.

[Pressing-On]

The title of this thread is absurd and insulting. Oh, and just plain wrong.

Although I believe that Mormonism is outside of mainstream Christianity, the title could have been worded a little less caustic.

[Michael The Disciple]

So should one vote for Barak Hussien Obama? Whose Church taught Black Liberation Theology? Who was mentored by the Communist Frank Marshall Davis? Who SEEMINGLY favors Islam over Christianity?

I will probably almost certainly stay home in Nov.

[Pressing-On]

So should one vote for Barak Hussien Obama? Whose Church taught Black Liberation Theology? Who was mentored by the Communist Frank Marshall Davis? Who SEEMINGLY favors Islam over Christianity?

I will probably almost certainly stay home in Nov.

I don't think anyone criticizing Romney is saying that we should vote for Obama. Many of us don't like either one.

[Michael The Disciple]

I don't think anyone criticizing Romney is saying that we should vote for Obama. Many of us don't like either one.

I know just getting a bit passionate:nod

[Pressing-On]

I know just getting a bit passionate:nod

No problem. I've been pretty passionate this whole election cycle. I'm sure it wasn't noticeable. :heeheehee

[Baron1710]

Anyone unbiased of history knows that our Founding Father's constructed our Constitution and the Declaration of Independence from Biblical principles. So, I think it would be best to say that "extremism" is what our Founding Father's didn't want in our leaders. Which is probably your point with Santorum.

Jefferson was clearly a Deist. There is no rewrite of History necessary. John Adams was a Unitarian, Franklin was a Deist, Thomas Paine was a Deist and had no use for Christianity. Let us be real about who our founder were. When Paine died it was written at the time he was a drunk and a Deist.

[Dordrecht]

2 Chronicles 19:2

And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the Lord? Therefore is wrath upon thee from before the Lord.

[Pressing-On]

Jefferson was clearly a Deist. There is no rewrite of History necessary. John Adams was a Unitarian, Franklin was a Deist, Thomas Paine was a Deist and had no use for Christianity. Let us be real about who our founder were. When Paine died it was written at the time he was a drunk and a Deist.

:nah

Jefferson: "I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." - Quotations on the Jefferson Memorial, Monticello.org.

Letter to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, 1822:

"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man:

1. That there is one only God, and He all perfect.

2. That there is a future state of rewards and punishments.

3. That to love God with all thy heart, and they neighbor as thyself, is the sum of religion…But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin…The impious dogmatists, as Athanasius and Calvin,…are the false shepherds foretold as to enter not by the door into the sheepfold, but to climb up some other way. Thee are mere usurpers of the Christian name, teaching a counter-religion made up of the deliria of crazy imaginations, as foreign from Christianity as is that of Mahomet. Their blasphemies have driven thinking men into infidelity, who have too hastily rejected the supposed Author himself with the horrors so falsely imputed to Him. Had the doctrines of Jesus been preached always as pure as they came from his lips, the whole civilized world would no have been Christian." - [I]
Allison, Maxfield, Cook & Skousen, Ed., The Real Thomas Jefferson, The National Center for Constitutional Studies, 2008. p. 356.

John Adams:"The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity, and humanity, … it is resignation to God, it is goodness itself to man." - Adams, Charles Frances. Vol. III, 1854, p. 421.

"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward almighty God…What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." - Adams, John. Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Belknap Press of Harvard Press, Cambridge, MA, Vol. III, 1961, p. 9.

Benjamin Franklin: "I sometimes wish that you and I were jointly employed by the crown to settle a colony on the Ohio…What a glorious thing it would be to settle in that fine country a large, strong body of religious and industrious people!… Might it not greatly facilitate the introduction of pure religion among the heathen, if we could, by such a colony, show them a better sample of Christians than they commonly see in our Indian traders?…"

"In such an enterprise, I could spend the remainder of life with pleasure; and I firmly believe God would bless us with success, if we undertook it with a sincere regard to His honour," -
Franklin, Benjamin. Letter to George Whitefield, July 2, 1756, John Bigelow, ed., The Complete Works of Benjamin Franklin, G.P. Putnam’s Sons, New York, 1887, V. 2, pp. 467.

"And conceiving God to be the fountain of wisdom, I thought it right and necessary to solicit his assistance for obtaining it; to this end I formed the following little prayer, which was prefix’d to my tables of examination, for daily use."

“O powerful Goodness! bountiful Father! merciful Guide! increase in me that wisdom which discovers my truest interest. strengthen my resolutions to perform what that wisdom dictates. Accept my kind offices to thy other children as the only return in my power for thy continual favors to me.”

"I used also sometimes a little prayer which I took from Thomson’s Poems, viz.:"

“Father of light and life, thou Good Supreme! O teach me what is good; teach me Thyself! Save me from folly, vanity, and vice, From every low pursuit; and fill my soul With knowledge, conscious peace, and virtue pure; Sacred, substantial, never-fading bliss!" - Franklin, Benjamin, The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin, Chapter 8. EarlyAmerica.com.

Thomas Paine: "It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of Divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles. He can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author." - Thomas Paine on "The Study of God" Delivered in Paris on January 16, 1797, in a Discourse to the Society of Theophilanthropists

[Baron1710]

:nah

Jefferson: "I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." - Quotations on the Jefferson Memorial, Monticello.org.

Letter to Dr. Benjamin Waterhouse, 1822:

"The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man:

1. That there is one only God, and He all perfect.

2. That there is a future state of rewards and punishments.

3. That to love God with all thy heart, and they neighbor as thyself, is the sum of religion…But compare with these the demoralizing dogmas of Calvin…The impious dogmatists, as Athanasius and Calvin,…are the false shepherds foretold as to enter not by the door into the sheepfold, but to climb up some other way. Thee are mere usurpers of the Christian name, teaching a counter-religion made up of the deliria of crazy imaginations, as foreign from Christianity as is that of Mahomet. Their blasphemies have driven thinking men into infidelity, who have too hastily rejected the supposed Author himself with the horrors so falsely imputed to Him. Had the doctrines of Jesus been preached always as pure as they came from his lips, the whole civilized world would no have been Christian." - [I]
Allison, Maxfield, Cook & Skousen, Ed., The Real Thomas Jefferson, The National Center for Constitutional Studies, 2008. p. 356.

John Adams:"The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity, and humanity, … it is resignation to God, it is goodness itself to man." - Adams, Charles Frances. Vol. III, 1854, p. 421.

"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward almighty God…What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." - Adams, John. Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Belknap Press of Harvard Press, Cambridge, MA, Vol. III, 1961, p. 9.

Benjamin Franklin: "I sometimes wish that you and I were jointly employed by the crown to settle a colony on the Ohio…What a glorious thing it would be to settle in that fine country a large, strong body of religious and industrious people!… Might it not greatly facilitate the introduction of pure religion among the heathen, if we could, by such a colony, show them a better sample of Christians than they commonly see in our Indian traders?…"

"In such an enterprise, I could spend the remainder of life with pleasure; and I firmly believe God would bless us with success, if we undertook it with a sincere regard to His honour," -
Franklin, Benjamin. Letter to George Whitefield, July 2, 1756, John Bigelow, ed., The Complete Works of Benjamin Franklin, G.P. Putnam’s Sons, New York, 1887, V. 2, pp. 467.

"And conceiving God to be the fountain of wisdom, I thought it right and necessary to solicit his assistance for obtaining it; to this end I formed the following little prayer, which was prefix’d to my tables of examination, for daily use."

“O powerful Goodness! bountiful Father! merciful Guide! increase in me that wisdom which discovers my truest interest. strengthen my resolutions to perform what that wisdom dictates. Accept my kind offices to thy other children as the only return in my power for thy continual favors to me.”

"I used also sometimes a little prayer which I took from Thomson’s Poems, viz.:"

“Father of light and life, thou Good Supreme! O teach me what is good; teach me Thyself! Save me from folly, vanity, and vice, From every low pursuit; and fill my soul With knowledge, conscious peace, and virtue pure; Sacred, substantial, never-fading bliss!" - Franklin, Benjamin, The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin, Chapter 8. EarlyAmerica.com.

Thomas Paine: "It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of Divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles. He can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author." - Thomas Paine on "The Study of God" Delivered in Paris on January 16, 1797, in a Discourse to the Society of Theophilanthropists

I had already completed a response and then poof it was gone with a single click.

I see you can quote these men on religion in general but do you deny that Franklin, Jefferson, and Paine all denied the Deity of Christ?

It is only too easy to show that they did in their own words.

"Here is my Creed: I believe in one God, Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by his Providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable Service we can render to him, is doing Good to his other Children. That the Soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with Justice in another Life respecting its Conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental Principles of all sound Religion, and I regard them as you do, in whatever Sect I meet with them. As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting Changes, and I have with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his Divinity:" - Letter to Ezra Stiles


Jefferson's view of being a true Christian are a little out of the main stream...

"The truth is that the greatest enemies to the doctrines of Jesus are those calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them for the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors."

"Among the sayings and discourses imputed to Him by His biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others, again, of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same Being. I separate, therefore, the gold from the dross; restore to Him the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, and roguery of others of His disciples. Of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus."

[Pressing-On]

I had already completed a response and then poof it was gone with a single click.

I see you can quote these men on religion in general but do you deny that Franklin, Jefferson, and Paine all denied the Deity of Christ?

It is only too easy to show that they did in their own words.

"Here is my Creed: I believe in one God, Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by his Providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable Service we can render to him, is doing Good to his other Children. That the Soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with Justice in another Life respecting its Conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental Principles of all sound Religion, and I regard them as you do, in whatever Sect I meet with them. As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting Changes, and I have with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his Divinity:" - Letter to Ezra Stiles


Jefferson's view of being a true Christian are a little out of the main stream...

"The truth is that the greatest enemies to the doctrines of Jesus are those calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them for the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away all this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this the most venerated reformer of human errors."

"Among the sayings and discourses imputed to Him by His biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others, again, of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same Being. I separate, therefore, the gold from the dross; restore to Him the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, and roguery of others of His disciples. Of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and first corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus."

Can you give me your sources. I've never seen those quotes before. Thanks.

[Baron1710]

Can you give me your sources. I've never seen those quotes before. Thanks.

For Franklin you can Google letter to Ezra stiles.

The last quote from Jefferson was a letter to William Short dated April 13,1820.

I will get the other quote reference in a bit.

Also you may want to read some of Paine's Essays here:

http://www.deism.com/paine.htm

[Baron1710]

http://www.beliefnet.com/resourcelib/docs/53/Letter_from_Thomas_Jefferson_to_John_Adams_1.html

The other quote by jefferso was a letter to JohnAdams you can read the whole letter above.

I would also recommend his letter of advice to Peter Carr where he advises him to be wary of those that teach either extreme about Jesus. One extreme being that he was born of a virgin, etc. etc.

[Pressing-On]

For Franklin you can Google letter to Ezra stiles.

The last quote from Jefferson was a letter to William Short dated April 13,1820.

I will get the other quote reference in a bit.

Also you may want to read some of Paine's Essays here:

http://www.deism.com/paine.htm

Thanks. Seems some of the quotes are contradictory to what I've read. I'm pretty sure a Deism site will be totally biased. I'll check into it when I have more time.

I know Jefferson's background with the Anglican Church and his disappointment, but I think as time evolved, he wasn't a Deist later in life, if in fact, he ever was.

The many quotes I've read by Franklin don't prove to me he was Deist. Being that a Deist believes that there is a God, but he doesn't become involved with with His creation, I don't find that thinking in Franklin's writings.

I haven't really studied Paine, but his stand against teaching science without including Theology is pretty cut and dried to me.

[Baron1710]

Thanks. Seems some of the quotes are contradictory to what I've read. I'm pretty sure a Deism site will be totally biased. I'll check into it when I have more time.

I know Jefferson's background with the Anglican Church and his disappointment, but I think as time evolved, he wasn't a Deist later in life, if in fact, he ever was.

The many quotes I've read by Franklin don't prove to me he was Deist. Being that a Deist believes that there is a God, but he doesn't become involved with with His creation, I don't find that thinking in Franklin's writings.

I haven't really studied Paine, but his stand against teaching science without including Theology is pretty cut and dried to me.

The Paine link has no bias, it is a link only to Paine's letters and essays.

[Pressing-On]

http://www.beliefnet.com/resourcelib/docs/53/Letter_from_Thomas_Jefferson_to_John_Adams_1.html

The other quote by jefferso was a letter to JohnAdams you can read the whole letter above.

I would also recommend his letter of advice to Peter Carr where he advises him to be wary of those that teach either extreme about Jesus. One extreme being that he was born of a virgin, etc. etc.

Yes, I did Google that. I had to Google part of the quote to find it. That is interesting and I wonder what that quote had to do with his disenchantment with the Anglican Church? That is something interesting to look into. I can relate to his feelings because of the 20 years I spent in the Roman Catholic Church.

[Pressing-On]

The Paine link has no bias, it is a link only to Paine's letters and essays.

Oh, okay. I look at it then and verify with other sources.

[Baron1710]

"We often hear of a gang of thieves plotting to rob and murder a man, and laying a plan to entice him out that they may execute their design, and we always feel shocked at the wickedness of such wretches; but what must we think of a book that describes the Almighty acting in the same manner, and laying plans in heaven to entrap and ruin mankind? Our ideas of His justice and goodness forbid us to believe such stories, and therefore we say that a lying spirit has been in the mouth of the writers of the books of the Bible."

Paine on the Blasphemy of the Bible.
 

[Pressing-On]

"We often hear of a gang of thieves plotting to rob and murder a man, and laying a plan to entice him out that they may execute their design, and we always feel shocked at the wickedness of such wretches; but what must we think of a book that describes the Almighty acting in the same manner, and laying plans in heaven to entrap and ruin mankind? Our ideas of His justice and goodness forbid us to believe such stories, and therefore we say that a lying spirit has been in the mouth of the writers of the books of the Bible."

Paine on the Blasphemy of the Bible.
..

Thomas Paine: "It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of Divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles. He can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author." - Thomas Paine on "The Study of God" Delivered in Paris on January 16, 1797, in a Discourse to the Society of Theophilanthropists

Both of these quotes are quite contradictory. It doesn't make a bit of sense.

[Baron1710]

Both of these quotes are quite contradictory. It doesn't make a bit of sense.

Not at all. Paine believed God was only knowable through creation not through Scripture.

[Baron1710]

Without googling it do you have any idea what this is from...


  "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

[Pressing-On]

Without googling it do you have any idea what this is from...


.. "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
Of course I had to look it up, like you did to copy it here. LOL!

Anyway, it is part of Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli, written by Joel Barlow, who was an American diplomat AND it was approved and signed by President John Adams.

[bbyrd009]

Sounds like Ben Franklin?

[Baron1710]

Sounds like Ben Franklin?

No, but guess who Franklin mentored and thought of as a son?

[Pressing-On]

The first state Constitution of Massachusetts.

Article III. [As the happiness of a people, and the good order and preservation of civil government, essentially depend upon piety, religion and morality; and as these cannot be generally diffused through a community, but by the institution of the public worship of God, and of public instructions in piety, religion and morality: Therefore, to promote their happiness and to secure the good order and preservation of their government, the people of this commonwealth have a right to invest their legislature with power to authorize and require, and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies politic, or religious societies, to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God, and for the support and maintenance of...teachers of piety, religion and morality, in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/bill_of_rightss6.html

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"[T]he Holy Scriptures ... can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability, and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments [defenses] around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments [protections]. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses." - James McHenry, United States Founding Father, Signer of the Constitution, Secretary of War, Bernard C. Steiner, "One Hundred and Ten Years of Bible Society Work in Maryland, 1810-1920", (Baltimore: The Maryland Bible Society, 1921), p. 14.

http://www.partyof1776.net/p1776/fathers/McHenry%20James/quotes/contents.html

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"The reflection and experience of many years have led me to consider the holy writings not only as the most authentic and instructive in themselves, but as the clue to all other history. They tell us what man is, and they alone tell us why he is what he is: a contradictory creature that seeing and approving of what is good, pursues and performs what is evil. All of private and public life is there displayed. ... From the same pure fountain of wisdom we learn that vice destroys freedom; that arbitrary power is founded on public immorality."

Constitution signer, Governor Morris

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I'm just showing that we were Founded on Judeo-Christian principles and that, yes, there were a handful of Deists, etc., but a larger percentage believed in the Bible and were proclaimed Christians.

[Baron1710]

PO,

There is no doubt many of our founders were very religious and perhaps many would even be called Christian, though not by today's evangelical standard.

The problem I have is with the dishonesty that tries to attribute to Jefferson, Franklin and Adams in particular views they obviously did not hold.

When Paine wrote "The Age of Reason" Franklin urged him to burn it before others could see it. Americans did not generally like Paine much after he began publishing views like what were contained in the Age of Reason.

[Pressing-On]

I wish to be excused for repeating here, that if the Bible did not convey a single direction for the attainment of future happiness, it should be read in our schools in preference to all other books, from, its containing the greatest portion of that kind of knowledge which is calculated to produce private and public temporal happiness.... By withholding the knowledge of this [Christian] doctrine from children, we deprive ourselves of the best means of awakening moral sensibility in their minds (1791, pp. 122,125) - Declaration of Independence signer, Dr. Benjamin Rush

[Pressing-On]

PO,

There is no doubt many of our founders were very religious and perhaps many would even be called Christian, though not by today's evangelical standard.

The problem I have is with the dishonesty that tries to attribute to Jefferson, Franklin and Adams in particular views they obviously did not hold.

When Paine wrote "The Age of Reason" Franklin urged him to burn it before others could see it. Americans did not generally like Paine much after he began publishing views like what were contained in the Age of Reason.

:thumbsup :thumbsup

Oh, I forgot the point of the thread. LOL! Some were saying that they are not voting for a "pastor" for President. My POV is that a candidate's beliefs are very important to the survival of our nation as I believe we were founded on Judeo-Christian values/principles.

My problem with Mormonism is the very basic and key tenet of their belief - God has a physical body and over time this man made himself perfect/righteous and became God. That is a huge problem for me. I think it matters to God how a nation represents Him. After all, the whole purpose of our existence is God.

[Baron1710]

And be careful, Franklin thought man needed religion because many men were weak and it had a positive effect on society. Many times the speak of God or Religion but do so in a way that promotes public religion but says nothing of their own private views about how truthful the religion was.

[Pressing-On]

And be careful, Franklin thought man needed religion because many men were weak and it had a positive effect on society. Many times the speak of God or Religion but do so in a way that promotes public religion but says nothing of their own private views about how truthful the religion was.

Yes, we certainly should be cautious, but my point is that the largest percentage of our society has not been the thinking that some claim Franklin and others to have embraced.

I also saw Jefferson come to a good end and it appears to me, he embraced Christianity, if in fact, he was a Deist. I'm not really sure of that.

[Baron1710]

Yes, we certainly should be cautious, but my point is that the largest percentage of our society has not been the thinking that some claim Franklin and others to have embraced.

I also saw Jefferson come to a good end and it appears to me, he embraced Christianity, if in fact, he was a Deist. I'm not really sure of that.

Where do you get this about Jefferson?

[Pressing-On]

Where do you get this about Jefferson?

I quoted the epithet the wrote for himself. Must be on another thread.

But, this is interesting:

Following is an original document in our possession, signed by Thomas Jefferson on September 24, 1807. This document is permission for a ship called the Herschel to proceed on its journey to the port of London. The interesting characteristic of this document is the use of the phrase "in the year of our Lord Christ." Many official documents say "in the year of our Lord," but we have found very few that include the word "Christ." However, this is the explicitly Christian language that President Thomas Jefferson chose to use in official public presidential documents.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/historical/images/Jefferson1807.jpg

[Baron1710]

I quoted the epithet the wrote for himself. Must be on another thread.

But, this is interesting:

Following is an original document in our possession, signed by Thomas Jefferson on September 24, 1807. This document is permission for a ship called the Herschel to proceed on its journey to the port of London. The interesting characteristic of this document is the use of the phrase "in the year of our Lord Christ." Many official documents say "in the year of our Lord," but we have found very few that include the word "Christ." However, this is the explicitly Christian language that President Thomas Jefferson chose to use in official public presidential documents.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/historical/images/Jefferson1807.jpg

That's a stretch...

Talk about grasping at straws.

Never once did Jefferson write anything that indicated a belief that Jesus was anything more than a great moral teacher. He wrote on several occasions against the idea of Jesus being Divine.

When he used the term Christ it referred to a man not to Jesus as the son of God.

[Pressing-On]

That's a stretch...

Talk about grasping at straws.

Never once did Jefferson write anything that indicated a belief that Jesus was anything more than a great moral teacher. He wrote on several occasions against the idea of Jesus being Divine.

When he used the term Christ it referred to a man not to Jesus as the son of God.
Sorry, I just don't get that.

"The practice of morality being necessary for the well-being of society, he has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral precepts of Jesus, and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in his discourses." - Second Inaugural Address of President Thomas Jefferson, March 4, 1805, The Avalon Project, Yale Law School, Lillian Goldman Law Library.

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus—very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its Author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great Reformer of the vicious ethics and deism on the Jews, were He to return to earth, would not recognize one feather." - Allison, Maxfield, Cook & Skousen, Ed., The Real Thomas Jefferson, The National Center for Constitutional Studies, 2008. p. 356.

[Baron1710]

Sorry, I just don't get that.

"The practice of morality being necessary for the well-being of society, he has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral precepts of Jesus, and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in his discourses." - Second Inaugural Address of President Thomas Jefferson, March 4, 1805, The Avalon Project, Yale Law School, Lillian Goldman Law Library.

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus—very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its Author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great Reformer of the vicious ethics and deism on the Jews, were He to return to earth, would not recognize one feather." - Allison, Maxfield, Cook & Skousen, Ed., The Real Thomas Jefferson, The National Center for Constitutional Studies, 2008. p. 356.

Don't you get that he is saying he sees Jesus as a moral teacher. And from what I can tell that document was a preprinted documented from the Neatherlands not something Jefferson composed.

[Pressing-On]

Don't you get that he is saying he sees Jesus as a moral teacher. And from what I can tell that document was a preprinted documented from the Neatherlands not something Jefferson composed.

No, I don't see that - get that. It doesn't make sense that he would call himself a "Christian" which every Christian knows what that means - a follower of Christ - to only distance yourself from actual truth. That is just way to convoluted to grasp and make sensible. And where did you get the pre-printed document from the Netherlands? He signed it. It has his name across the top. He wouldn't have signed something he didn't approve of, would he?

[Baron1710]

No, I don't see that - get that. It doesn't make sense that he would call himself a "Christian" which every Christian knows what that means - a follower of Christ - to only distance yourself from actual truth. That is just way to convoluted to grasp and make sensible. And where did you get the pre-printed document from the Netherlands? He signed it. It has his name across the top. He wouldn't have signed something he didn't approve of, would he?

You want it to say something it doesn't. Jefferson never espoused Christianity, that is a belief that Jesus was the Saviour. He espoused the teachings of Jesus, which he tried to discern by removing the rest of the teaching of the Gospels about the miraculous. He defined, himself, what he meant by Christianity. Even during his election for President there were accusations that he was an atheist.

"...Well, that would be the High and Mighty Lords of the States-General of the United Netherlands. The language to be used on ships' papers was annexed to the 1782 Treaty of Amity and Commerce with the Netherlands, and the twenty-fifth article of the treaty itself stipulated that this was the wording that would be used. At the time this treaty was made, the Netherlands was still the Republic of the United Netherlands, which was a Christian republic where every public official had to be a member of the Dutch Reformed Church, and their official documents were full of religious language."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-rodda/no-mr-beck-jefferson-did_b_622122.html

[Baron1710]

Is that Dutch on the other side of the form? Jefferson was multilingual but I don't believe Dutch was part of his skill set. You can see it is the exact same wording on both parts and Jefferson filled in the blanks just like you do on forms all the time.

[Pressing-On]

You want it to say something it doesn't. Jefferson never espoused Christianity, that is a belief that Jesus was the Saviour. He espoused the teachings of Jesus, which he tried to discern by removing the rest of the teaching of the Gospels about the miraculous. He defined, himself, what he meant by Christianity. Even during his election for President there were accusations that he was an atheist.

"...Well, that would be the High and Mighty Lords of the States-General of the United Netherlands. The language to be used on ships' papers was annexed to the 1782 Treaty of Amity and Commerce with the Netherlands, and the twenty-fifth article of the treaty itself stipulated that this was the wording that would be used. At the time this treaty was made, the Netherlands was still the Republic of the United Netherlands, which was a Christian republic where every public official had to be a member of the Dutch Reformed Church, and their official documents were full of religious language."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-rodda/no-mr-beck-jefferson-did_b_622122.html

I pretty much thought the writer of the article was an atheist. Her book - Liars For Jesus: The Religious Right's Alternate Version of American History Vol. 1, kind of tipped me off.

Changing history, you can have her. I'll take what Jefferson actually said.

[Baron1710]

I pretty much thought the writer of the article was an atheist. Her book - Liars For Jesus: The Religious Right's Alternate Version of American History Vol. 1, kind of tipped me off.

Changing history, you can have her. I'll take what Jefferson actually said.

And? Deal with the facts.

You haven't taken what he has said at all. You want to rewrite history to make Jefferson say things he didn't say.

Her facts about the document are accurate regardless of her bias.

[Pressing-On]

And? Deal with the facts.

You haven't taken what he has said at all. You want to rewrite history to make Jefferson say things he didn't say.

Her facts about the document are accurate regardless of her bias.

How would I know if her facts are accurate? I read the entire article and wasn't sure her facts were correct.

[Baron1710]

How would I know if her facts are accurate? I read the entire article and wasn't sure her facts were correct.

Well for starters it is fairly obvious that is a fill in the blank document, and it appears to be half in Dutch as well.

You obviously took someone else's word that it said what you wanted it to.

[Pressing-On]

Well for starters it is fairly obvious that is a fill in the blank document, and it appears to be half in Dutch as well.

You obviously took someone else's word that it said what you wanted it to.

I don't take her word for it because, here she "snidely" remarks -

"As he claims in his presentations, other early presidents only dated things "in the year of our Lord," but Jefferson -- the least religious of them all -- the man who coined the phrase "separation between church and state" -- well, he went even further and added the name Christ! And his audience, of course, believes him."

I see her for who she is in that paragraph.

She like other atheists and liberals take Jefferson's words out of context on the wall of separation. It was limiting the power of the Federal Government. About a year after Jefferson wrote the letter to the Danbury group, he made a treaty with the Kaskaskia Indians pledging money so that they could build a Catholic Church. This was from Federal Funds. So, if you take the Danbury letter out of context, you provide an absolute separation of church and state and that was not Jefferson's intent.

She loses credibility right there. And I could tell at the outset of the article she was snide, rude and probably an atheist. All that turned out to be true after doing a Google search.

[Pressing-On]

And let's take a closer look at Jefferson's letter to the Danbury group.

Look at the last paragraph of the letter:

"I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem."

Kinda of a strange thing for a "Deist" to say when they don't believe that God is involved in the lives of His Created. He appreciates their prayers to God who in turn will offer protection and blessing. :hmmm Doesn't sound very Deist to me.

To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.