Do They Really Believe This?

[samuelofisrael]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mitt and Mormonism

Posted: 12 Sep 2012 10:46 AM PDT

There is no doubt that our country is between a rock and a hard place. Admittedly, it is politically incorrect to explain, much less to discuss, why. Religion has become particularly taboo when assessing candidates whether they’re Black Liberationists with Marxist leanings or spit-shined Mormons with magic underpants and a faith in a god who lives on the planet “Kolob.” We’ve become a nation where the First Amendment protections mean that it is now forbidden to question a man’s religion even when considering his qualification for public office.

Not that long ago there were genuine fears about electing John Kennedy as America’s first Roman Catholic president. As it turned out those fears were unfounded as it wasn’t the pope pulling JFK’s string. Even as recently as 1988, the same year Ron Paul first ran for president as a Libertarian, the Trinity Foundation was threatened with the loss of its tax exempt status because of John Robbins’ book; Pat Robertson: A Warning to America. Evidently questioning Robertson’s charismatic faith along with his “prophetic” visions during an election year can get your book banned.

Things have slid so far that I can’t even imagine anyone today, including those calling themselves “Evangelicals,” being even remotely concerned about a VP candidate who might actually be dancing his 6% body fat to the Vatican’s tune. Consequently, questioning Romney’s Mormonism is either a throwback to a less enlightened era or is just irrelevant. I mean, anything is better than Obama right?

In an attempt to assuage any remaining Evangelical concerns about his religious beliefs, Romney recently told a reporter with the Washington Post:

“For me, there’s no question. I believe in a Heavenly Father, I believe in his Son Jesus Christ, I believe in the Holy Ghost. These are features that are part of many people’s faith in this country; other folks have differing views”

Almost sounds Trinitarian, right? Perhaps, except for the fact that Mormon’s aren’t even remotely Trinitarian, and, according to the LDS website, “Latter-day Saints do reject the doctrines of the Trinity as taught by most Christian churches today.” While there are a number of good sites on the web that offer some excellent summaries of Mormon doctrines, including their rejection of the Trinity in favor of a form of polytheism, I thought the following was a particularly good list of Mormon doctrines from a group of ex-Mormons that might be helpful for some when deciding who to vote for … or if they should vote at all:

God was once a man like us.

God has a tangible body of flesh and bone.

God lives on a planet near the star Kolob.

God (“Heavenly Father”) has at least one wife, our “Mother in Heaven,” but she is so holy that we are not to discuss her nor pray to her.

Jesus was married.

We can become like God and rule over our own universe.

There are many gods, ruling over their own worlds.

Jesus and Satan (“Lucifer”) are brothers, and they are our brothers – we are all spirit children of Heavenly Father

Jesus Christ was conceived by God the Father by having sex with Mary, who was temporarily his wife.

We should not pray to Jesus, nor try to feel a personal relationship with him.

The “Lord” (“Jehovah”) in the Old Testament is the being named Jesus in the New Testament, but different from “God the Father” (“Elohim”).

In the highest degree of the celestial kingdom some men will have more than one wife.

Before coming to this earth we lived as spirits in a “pre-existence”, during which we were tested; our position in this life (whether born to Mormons or savages, or in America or Africa) is our reward or punishment for our obedience in that life.

Dark skin is a curse from God, the result of our sin, or the sin of our ancestors.

If sufficiently righteous, a dark-skinned person will become light-skinned.

The Garden of Eden was in Missouri. All humanity before the Great Flood lived in the western hemisphere. The Ark transported Noah and the other survivors to the eastern hemisphere.

Not only will human beings be resurrected to eternal life, but also all animals – everything that has ever lived on earth – will be resurrected and dwell in heaven.

Christ will not return to earth in any year that has seen a rainbow.

Mormons should avoid traveling on water, since Satan rules the waters.
The sun receives its light from the star Kolob.

If a Gentile becomes Mormon, the Holy Ghost actually purges his Gentile blood and replaces it with Israelite blood.

A righteous Mormon will actually see the face of God in the Mormon temple.

You can identify a false angel by the color of his hair, or by offering to shake his hand.

You can find more here. See also Mormonism 101 by Kevin DeYoung and Mormonism, Democracy, and the Urgent Need for Evangelical Thinking by Al Mohler.

[Nitehawk013]

Not that I am a fan of Mormonism, but we studied it in Cults class at Bible College. MANY of the things on your list were either renounced by the church as a whole except for the fringe members or were clearly stated as the opinions of certain leaders and elders, not official doctrine.

If you dishonestly butcher Mormonism, don't object when people dishonestly butcher oneness pentecostalism.

[samuelofisrael]

Not that I am a fan of Mormonism, but we studied it in Cults class at Bible College. MANY of the things on your list were either renounced by the church as a whole except for the fringe members or were clearly stated as the opinions of certain leaders and elders, not official doctrine.

If you dishonestly butcher Mormonism, don't object when people dishonestly butcher oneness pentecostalism.

What is the title of the thread? That should tell you what you need to know relative to this thread. Did I write the article?

Pentecostal ONENESS theology IS butchered by opponents of that particular persuasion. As far as I know, not a single building was attacked and burned by the opposing trinitarians, Tri-Unitarians.

I am not sure the "official" version is any less platable than the "unofficial" version. As each man stands on his own confession before God as an individual irrespective of his committment to a "group" sect, cult, organization, fellowship or denomination, his "official" version [for him] stands as "his" truth.

Thus, as you pointed out, "certain leaders and elders" DO in fact, endorse these fictions.

If Mitt is in fact, under these same delusions as those leaders and elders who hold to wholesale heresy, I wonder what mental balance the man might possess. Is not a man the measure of his mind [spirit]?

Mitt must be anti-trinitarian if the list is correct. Doesn't that give you some comfort concerning his grasp of Biblical issues?

Every man and woman has a"religion" if the philosophical term is to be received. It may be their business, their leisure activities, their house, car, family, church, pets, money, anti-anything and so forth. A few, very few relative to the mass of humanity have a TRUE FAITH based on the TRUE REVELATION of Holy Writ. But that "trueness" will not be entirely open to view in this present world [era, time frame] otherwise it is not "faith." The test of trueness is that one's name has been placed in the Lamb's Book of Life ere the world began. You may consider why that name was placed there as your personal understanding presently exists at this hour. There is only ONE true answer but many explanations, most center on man rather than the Sovereign God, Creator of all.

As for the Mormons and their "fantasia" theology, that even some elders and leaders would hold to such heretical nonsense give one reason to wonder how much of it resides in the mind of Mr. Romney, who by the way, is said to be lacking the support of many Americans if the polls are to be considered.

[bbyrd009]

Oh, please. What section is this obviously
political thread put in? Deep waters, for some
Weekly World News tripe. Tyvm.

[Walks_in_islam]

You are now saying that the hundreds and hundreds of years of bloodshed and butchery around the world in the name of the church never happened?

On what do you think this very country was founded? You believe or think the pilgrims who settled here did so because they were on vacation or just happened by?



What is the title of the thread? That should tell you what you need to know relative to this thread. Did I write the article?

Pentecostal ONENESS theology IS butchered by opponents of that particular persuasion. As far as I know, not a single building was attacked and burned by the opposing trinitarians, Tri-Unitarians.

I am not sure the "official" version is any less platable than the "unofficial" version. As each man stands on his own confession before God as an individual irrespective of his committment to a "group" sect, cult, organization, fellowship or denomination, his "official" version [for him] stands as "his" truth.

Thus, as you pointed out, "certain leaders and elders" DO in fact, endorse these fictions.

If Mitt is in fact, under these same delusions as those leaders and elders who hold to wholesale heresy, I wonder what mental balance the man might possess. Is not a man the measure of his mind [spirit]?

Mitt must be anti-trinitarian if the list is correct. Doesn't that give you some comfort concerning his grasp of Biblical issues?

Every man and woman has a"religion" if the philosophical term is to be received. It may be their business, their leisure activities, their house, car, family, church, pets, money, anti-anything and so forth. A few, very few relative to the mass of humanity have a TRUE FAITH based on the TRUE REVELATION of Holy Writ. But that "trueness" will not be entirely open to view in this present world [era, time frame] otherwise it is not "faith." The test of trueness is that one's name has been placed in the Lamb's Book of Life ere the world began. You may consider why that name was placed there as your personal understanding presently exists at this hour. There is only ONE true answer but many explanations, most center on man rather than the Sovereign God, Creator of all.

As for the Mormons and their "fantasia" theology, that even some elders and leaders would hold to such heretical nonsense give one reason to wonder how much of it resides in the mind of Mr. Romney, who by the way, is said to be lacking the support of many Americans if the polls are to be considered.

[samuelofisrael]

You are now saying that the hundreds and hundreds of years of bloodshed and butchery around the world in the name of the church never happened?

On what do you think this very country was founded? You believe or think the pilgrims who settled here did so because they were on vacation or just happened by?

No, I am saying those who perpetrated those actrocities were as the Muslims fanatics are today. There is no valid reason to believe the misguided actions by the minions of Rome or of the Protestants in the name of their sect was in keeping with Godly virtue. But this does not excuse the current atrocities of Islamic dupes. This is today, what Rome or others did centuries ago is not the issue nor is it germane concerning the true teaching of Holy Writ.

I see no analogy between the pilgrims immigrating to the New World and Muslims flying into tall buildings or mindless hoards murdering diplomats.

Islam is NOT a religion of peace. There may be those among the Islamic brotherhood who advocate peace and there are, but this is not endemic in their deeper belief system. The Egyptian President eschews the recent violence because it is not good for business, not because 4 men were murdered as those
under the alleged protection of their diplomatic status. That makes the action of the mob even more cowardly.

But these are mere symptoms. The deeper root cause of their actions lies in human depravity and the mindset of those who have embraced the Muslim system.

I have no doubt the rank and file dues paying, card carrying, rug kneeling Muslim resident in the American Republic has ever seriously considered Jihad other than as a philosophical concept. I doubt they murdered their little girl for dishonoring their worthless name or planted a bomb in a public building. But despite that, they are still lost to the world to come. They have rejected the ONLY acceptable Sacrifice for Sin provided by the True and Living God. Not the Moon god but the real GOD, Creator of Heavens and Earth. The Muslims, like the religious Jews stand outside the pale of the Covenant. Simply put, they are on a dead end road. They have rejected the only means of salvation and now await their final doom.

Islam is a misdirection play and mega millions have bought into the feint.

Yeshua has said: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life ... no man comes to the Father except by Me." -- Jn. 14:6

[Walks_in_islam]

We were not discussing Islam. We were discussing the founding of our country in the context of the historical intolerance of the church. You have the bad luck of being the current poster boy for this. Do you believe your constant message of intolerance absent the message you are tasked to teach has place in paradise? If it did then Jesus would certainly have noted it and I do not recall it as noted.

I tell you this - you declare others lost while failing to recognize the beam in your own eye. In this there is a danger to you, as Jesus himself taught you.

With this in mind the topic was Mormanism. Did you forget?

No, I am saying those who perpetrated those actrocities were as the Muslims fanatics are today. There is no valid reason to believe the misguided actions by the minions of Rome or of the Protestants in the name of their sect was in keeping with Godly virtue. But this does not excuse the current atrocities of Islamic dupes. This is today, what Rome or others did centuries ago is not the issue nor is it germane concerning the true teaching of Holy Writ.

I see no analogy between the pilgrims immigrating to the New World and Muslims flying into tall buildings or mindless hoards murdering diplomats.

Islam is NOT a religion of peace. There may be those among the Islamic brotherhood who advocate peace and there are, but this is not endemic in their deeper belief system. The Egyptian President eschews the recent violence because it is not good for business, not because 4 men were murdered as those
under the alleged protection of their diplomatic status. That makes the action of the mob even more cowardly.

But these are mere symptoms. The deeper root cause of their actions lies in human depravity and the mindset of those who have embraced the Muslim system.

I have no doubt the rank and file dues paying, card carrying, rug kneeling Muslim resident in the American Republic has ever seriously considered Jihad other than as a philosophical concept. I doubt they murdered their little girl for dishonoring their worthless name or planted a bomb in a public building. But despite that, they are still lost to the world to come. They have rejected the ONLY acceptable Sacrifice for Sin provided by the True and Living God. Not the Moon god but the real GOD, Creator of Heavens and Earth. The Muslims, like the religious Jews stand outside the pale of the Covenant. Simply put, they are on a dead end road. They have rejected the only means of salvation and now await their final doom.

Islam is a misdirection play and mega millions have bought into the feint.

Yeshua has said: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life ... no man comes to the Father except by Me." -- Jn. 14:6

[Dordrecht]

Walks in Islam:With this in mind the topic was Mormanism. Did you forget?

.....says the self appointed (muslim) moderator of this Apostolic Christian Forum?

[Walks_in_islam]

Charity work.

The gentleman appears to have stumbled in his excitement to have an opportunity to get to nail not (1) but (2) religions under the same topic

Someday the two of you will actually put down in print the value of what you DO believe. It will be a miracle LOL


.....says the self appointed (muslim) moderator of this Apostolic Christian Forum?

[Dordrecht]

You know exactly what we believe:
We believe there is only one way to the Father
and that's through Jesus Christ.

[Monterrey]

I thinks Walks is really a closet Apostolic that just likes to get you guys riled up. Didn't you know he says the sinners prayer every day?

[Dordrecht]

Oh, ok.

[Walks_in_islam]

Do you then to follow his teachings and pray to the Father as he taught you to pray then conduct yourselves as he taught you to conduct yourselves.

Then teach others to do these things

If you do this then you will have little to no time to pick at the faith and belief of others.

You know exactly what we believe:
We believe there is only one way to the Father
and that's through Jesus Christ.

[Walks_in_islam]

LOL.....si man si.....LOL

I thinks Walks is really a closet Apostolic that just likes to get you guys riled up. Didn't you know he says the sinners prayer every day?

[canam]

.....says the self appointed (muslim) moderator of this Apostolic Christian Forum?

muslim wannabe !

[Walks_in_islam]

yipyip

muslim wannabe !

[samuelofisrael]

[QUOTE=Walks_in_islam;1188406]We were not discussing Islam. We were discussing the founding of our country in the context of the historical intolerance of the church. You have the bad luck of being the current poster boy for this. Do you believe your constant message of intolerance absent the message you are tasked to teach has place in paradise? If it did then Jesus would certainly have noted it and I do not recall it as noted. [quote]

I tell you this - you declare others lost while failing to recognize the beam in your own eye. In this there is a danger to you, as Jesus himself taught you. [quote]

The founding of the nation of America was certainly not settled by the descendents of Islam.

My "beam" was taken out of my eye long ago by GRACE, apart from works lest I should have boasted. And even then it took years to understand and accept the extent of GRACE as apart from works relative to salvation. Man resists penciling himself out of the salvic equation. He persists in believing he is somehow intrinsically instrumental in his calling and election. He persists in believing the predestination factor really proceeds from himself. This is one of the great follies of all "do it yourself" religions. Islam and present day Judaism are two peas in a pod in this respect. Work, work, work. Keep Saturday as the Sabbath. Don't eat hog. Do this, do that, bow down, face Mecca. Etc.

Yes, you are a lost and dying individual as you now stand. Mohammad could not save himself much less others. He could not lead his disciples to the WAY. He is NOT the prophet of the TRUE and LIVING GOD. His "one god" was Allah, the one god as opposed to the many gods of the desert, the MOON GOD.

Indeed Islam has one god, Allah. They freely and persistenly confess Allah. But the Allah is not the HaShem of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ... THE GOD and FATHER our the LORD Yeshua Messiah. And therein lies all the difference in the universe.

Islam is a dead end philosophy as is other Eastern Religions and philosophies. They lead to eternal separation from the Presence of the LORD. There is no efficacy in the teachings of the Koran. Practical information, "laws," inter personal directives but no path leading to the Saviour. It is an earthly code of conduct, it has no means of a true gospel.

You have heard the Gospel, the claims of the Hebrew Prophets and Apostles so there is no excuse you will be able to offer at THAT Day. You [apparently] have been allowed to receive what cannot save, at least to this present hour. What your eventual destiny might be is not mine to know. However, should you breathe your last as a disciple of Islam, there is no hope of eternal life. None at all. You would have rejected the ONLY acceptable offering for SIN and therefore your sin would have remained which cannot be permitted to transit the next plane of existence.

Now, you must go your way to the end of [your] days and the True and Living God judges all at that [second] resurrection for those who refused the offer of the Gospel.

Yeshua alone is the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man can approach the FATHER but by Him [Yeshua]. He is the One and Only Door that leads to life eternal. Mohammad yet resides in the shades awaiting his resurrection.

Repent or Perish the King announced to the Jews. It is the WORD to this generation, Jew, Muslim, Christian [professed], mankind. It is a universal WORD. It has no earthly boundaries, its Voice rings throughout the universe.

Except you repent you shall likewise perish, eternally.

[Walks_in_islam]

OH ok so you wandered again. Lets get things on track

The founding of the nation of America was certainly not settled by the descendents of Islam. True. The founding of the nation of America was settled by those who were fleeing the heavy and bloody hand of persecution in the name of the christian church and the fundamental protections set up in the constitution were to protect average citizens from christian rule. It is also true that Islam had nothing to do with this. The cruel and bloody hands of christianity were enough.

My "beam" was taken out of my eye long ago by GRACE, apart from works lest I should have boasted.

The "beam" is preventing you from seeing the passages referencing works in the context of salvation as taught by jesus and judgement as written by John who knew Jesus. You were exempted from those works only by saul / paul who neither knew Jesus nor met him.

And even then it took years to understand and accept the extent of GRACE as apart from works relative to salvation. Man resists penciling himself out of the salvic equation. He persists in believing he is somehow intrinsically instrumental in his calling and election. He persists in believing the predestination factor really proceeds from himself. This is one of the great follies of all "do it yourself" religions. Islam and present day Judaism are two peas in a pod in this respect. Work, work, work. Keep Saturday as the Sabbath. Don't eat hog. Do this, do that, bow down, face Mecca. Etc.

Work, work, work, sabbath, hog, do this, do that were handed to a Messenger by God himself. Who do you think you are to look down on this message? Was Moses a messenger of God or not? Not only a silly but also an arrogant rabbit. Those are not Jewish or Islamic rules that you are putting down. Those are rules and laws taken out of your own "holy?" book.


Yes, you are a lost and dying individual as you now stand. Mohammad could not save himself much less others. He could not lead his disciples to the WAY. He is NOT the prophet of the TRUE and LIVING GOD. His "one god" was Allah, the one god as opposed to the many gods of the desert, the MOON GOD.

His "One God" was Eli/ELOH as referenced in the Aramaic language of Jesus. Jesus also prayed to ELI and taught his followers to do the same. The word "Allah" is on page (1) of the Arabic bible in Genesis (14) times.

Now tell me why would the name of a "moon god" be referenced in the christian bible? "EL" is the name for God in the original texts of your own bible MANY more times than the name you reference

Indeed Islam has one god, Allah. They freely and persistenly confess Allah. But the Allah is not the HaShem of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ... THE GOD and FATHER our the LORD Yeshua Messiah. And therein lies all the difference in the universe.

Allah is "EL" from the time of Abram in Genesis to "Immanu EL"

Islam is a dead end philosophy as is other Eastern Religions and philosophies. They lead to eternal separation from the Presence of the LORD. There is no efficacy in the teachings of the Koran. Practical information, "laws," inter personal directives but no path leading to the Saviour. It is an earthly code of conduct, it has no means of a true gospel.

Not according to Jesus who listed out specific works that were tied to the requirements for salvation. Do I need to go get them and spell them out for you?

You have heard the Gospel, the claims of the Hebrew Prophets and Apostles so there is no excuse you will be able to offer at THAT Day. You [apparently] have been allowed to receive what cannot save, at least to this present hour. What your eventual destiny might be is not mine to know. However, should you breathe your last as a disciple of Islam, there is no hope of eternal life. None at all. You would have rejected the ONLY acceptable offering for SIN and therefore your sin would have remained which cannot be permitted to transit the next plane of existence.

As have you. You were told by Jesus, by those before him and writings after him that your deeds will determine your judgement. You have been specifically told that you will be judged by your WORKS and that your faith without them is a dead thing. You will have neither excuse nor justification for wrapping yourself in a cloak of arrogance, believing with all your heart in your salvation while walking among your fellows spreading hatred and poison. If you do not change and start teaching others to do what Jesus taught then there is no hope for you, none at all. You would have rejected the requirements specifically outlined in black in white (well usually red isnt it?) and you will not be permitted to transit the next plane of existance

Now, you must go your way to the end of [your] days and the True and Living God judges all at that [second] resurrection for those who refused the offer of the Gospel.

Yeshua alone is the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man can approach the FATHER but by Him [Yeshua]. He is the One and Only Door that leads to life eternal. Mohammad yet resides in the shades awaiting his resurrection.

Repent or Perish the King announced to the Jews. It is the WORD to this generation, Jew, Muslim, Christian [professed], mankind. It is a universal WORD. It has no earthly boundaries, its Voice rings throughout the universe.

Except you repent you shall likewise perish, eternally.

My repentence was done. Now I owe part of every day to God. Thanks though. Hopefully you will repent and turn towards Jesus and serving God as he taught you to

[/QUOTE]

[Esaias]

More 'anti paulism' I see.

Paul was an apostle who affirmed everything Jesus and the other apostles taught.

[anon5]

I'm new here so hello to everyone. This thread caught my eye because I am a mormon. I was baptized into the church about six months ago. Before then, my family and I had been searching for a church to call home. But it seened like they all had the newage rockstar thing going on. I have nothing against such juvenile behavior if it helps one's walk with God,but it didn't help me and I grew tired of it. Sort of a putting away of childish things. I was a member of an apostolic church about ten yrs before. Anyway that's my history.

I joined the mormon church for a very simple reason: I saw how they treated one another. I'm not sure why they are considered a cult, and many of the things I read here are stuff I've never heard come from them at all. So many claim to be the "truth" but in all my searchings, they were the only ones who impressed me with what they were willing to do for others.

[shazeep]

I joined the mormon church for a very simple reason: I saw how they treated one another.At the end of the day, "Love your neighbor..." is what matters; ones theology is irrelevant. They are termed a cult so that those with no confidence may feel a little better in their Lofty Positions, of course. Ntmy.

[Aquila]

I'm leery of the Mormon church. First, you have the book of Mormon. It proposes that ancient Israelites came to the continental United States in the distant past and that nations were formed and an entire religio-historical drama unfolded. However, I've not heard of any reliable data supporting the claim. With the Bible... we have the Dead Sea Scrolls and thousands of years of both Jewish and Christian commentary referencing the Scriptures and the events that are described. The book of Mormon seems to just float in space like a work of fiction.

Also, the Pearl of Great Price has some interesting teachings (like Kolob) that the Mormons no longer embrace. If they were a church founded in truth... why would they have to go back and renounce their early teachings?

Their history is scandalous. Early Mormons are notorious for promoting polygamy and even breaking up the homes of families when a Mormon desired another man's wife. This even led to Mormons being hunted, arrested, shot, and killed. The young age of many of the wives of early Mormons is also quite scandalous.

If I had ever found any reliable data backing up the claims in the book of Mormon, a sound explanation as to why various teachings were good enough for their founders, but not good enough today, I might be able to overlook some of the polygamy and child brides... seeing that those things can be considered cultural. If there was proof of the history recorded in the book of Mormon... I might consider them a "Christian" sect. But I've not been shown anything that I'd stake my soul on.

[Aquila]

As for Islam... I actually have gotten to know quite a few Muslims and they've impressed me with their conduct and beliefs. As with Christianity you have mainstream Christians and wacko fundamentalists. Most Muslims I know see these extremists as nothing but trouble. The Quran is often difficult to interpret without knowing the historical context of various statements. For example... a lot of people talk about the verse in the Quran wherein Mohammed (PBUH) orders that Jews and infidels be beheaded. The context of this verse was prior to the military engagement of Mohammed and his followers. The Jews and infidels in this verse aren't you and me... these were enemies who had persecuted early Muslims and posed a very real and present threat to their community. It was war.

There are verses in the OT of the Bible wherein the Israelites were ordered to slaughter the inhabitants of the promised land. Knowing the cultural context of these verses helps us understand these statements as they relate to the war that was being engaged in during their generation. The admonition to slaughter the pagan inhabitants doesn't extend to unbelievers today. If the Quran is understood in this manner... it begins to make much more sense and the beauty of the work begins to come to light.

As for Islamic philosophy and theological perspective... I've gained much respect for the Sufis. They strike me as being far more "spiritual" in their approach to Islam than the Sunnis and Shiites. Sufis often focus on a personal relationship with Allah and ecstatic spiritual experiences wherein Allah's presence is felt and ego is vanquished.

However, Islam does have teeth. Here is the danger as I see it... Within Islam, the faith is seen as a community that has a right to defend itself and advance it's cause with deadly force if peace is impossible. Therefore, depending upon circumstance... one could be faced with Muslims using lethal force. Islam doesn't value pacifism in the way Christianity does.

[shazeep]

hmm...hard to rebut your treatise of Mormonism--as opposed to the present-day Mormons that i have met; which are few--and the one on Islam strikes me as accurate, from a certain perspective, and not from another. The Beginning of Surahs tells me that the Qur'an values pacifism--Those who think to justify violence with Islam are in fatal error--whereas many who would call themselves adherents may not. I see this as revealing of premises, which i think Holy Writ is designed for.

Perhaps WII might enlighten us further there.

[anon5]

At the end of the day, "Love your neighbor..." is what matters; ones theology is irrelevant. They are termed a cult so that those with no confidence may feel a little better in their Lofty Positions, of course. Ntmy.

Well, like I said earlier, I joined because of how they treated one another. From what I saw, the love thy neighbor aspect could not have been more evident

[shazeep]

ya, i have noticed that myself. i think most Christians have lost their way--in the West, at least--and i have come to view what 'religion' someone ID's with as being pretty irrelevant.

[anon5]

As for Islam... I actually have gotten to know quite a few Muslims and they've impressed me with their conduct and beliefs. As with Christianity you have mainstream Christians and wacko fundamentalists. Most Muslims I know see these extremists as nothing but trouble. The Quran is often difficult to interpret without knowing the historical context of various statements. For example... a lot of people talk about the verse in the Quran wherein Mohammed (PBUH) orders that Jews and infidels be beheaded. The context of this verse was prior to the military engagement of Mohammed and his followers. The Jews and infidels in this verse aren't you and me... these were enemies who had persecuted early Muslims and posed a very real and present threat to their community. It was war.

There are verses in the OT of the Bible wherein the Israelites were ordered to slaughter the inhabitants of the promised land. Knowing the cultural context of these verses helps us understand these statements as they relate to the war that was being engaged in during their generation. The admonition to slaughter the pagan inhabitants doesn't extend to unbelievers today. If the Quran is understood in this manner... it begins to make much more sense and the beauty of the work begins to come to light.

As for Islamic philosophy and theological perspective... I've gained much respect for the Sufis. They strike me as being far more "spiritual" in their approach to Islam than the Sunnis and Shiites. Sufis often focus on a personal relationship with Allah and ecstatic spiritual experiences wherein Allah's presence is felt and ego is vanquished.

However, Islam does have teeth. Here is the danger as I see it... Within Islam, the faith is seen as a community that has a right to defend itself and advance it's cause with deadly force if peace is impossible. Therefore, depending upon circumstance... one could be faced with Muslims using lethal force. Islam doesn't value pacifism in the way Christianity does.

Here's my grief with Islam and maybe you can help me come to terms with it: Islam has just
over one billion people. It was estimated a few yrs ago that only about ten percent of those are fanatics. I'm not too good at arithmetic, but that's STILL many millions who are more then willing to drop a backpack by a boy at a marathon, so he'll become red mist from the blast, shoot a little girl on a bus, or kidnap whole classrooms of girls, NOT just because they are random psychos, but specifically for their religion. No other religion still has this level of violence.
Also why do they riot like crazy over a video, or caricature of their prophet, but won't make a peep over stoning pregnant women, child brides as young as nine, or killing schoolgirls?

Finally, all the atrocities "Christedom" have committed are at least a few centuries old. This is 2014 yet millions of muslims still support/commit terrible atrocities, and still in the namr of Islam. It is SO passe and common its not even reported much anymore.

[shazeep]

That could not be further from the truth, wadr. All of your media is controlled, and by the largest arms dealers on the planet--your "Christian" leaders. And why do you call those Muslims, when Allah would clearly not claim them? Was Jim Jones a Christian? Was Hitler? Apparently. And "It is so passe and common its not even reported much anymore" is just comedy, sorry, to one who has been there. I feel safer in Egypt right now than i would in NYC...and i am exceedingly white. Yikes. We are deserving of everything coming, i am seeing... :(

[shazeep]

at the least, please see that Muslim fanatic is as oxymoronic as Hitler, Christian, and seek some middle ground in your news? RT or something. Anything. You have to know that your network news is complete fiction now, they aren't even hiding it. Jon Stewart has a weekly skit where he replays all the network news parrots saying exactly the same thing. Available on youtube. Peace.

[Monterrey]

That could not be further from the truth, wadr. All of your media is controlled, and by the largest arms dealers on the planet--your "Christian" leaders. And why do you call those Muslims, when Allah would clearly not claim them? Was Jim Jones a Christian? Was Hitler? Apparently. And "It is so passe and common its not even reported much anymore" is just comedy, sorry, to one who has been there. I feel safer in Egypt right now than i would in NYC...and i am exceedingly white. Yikes. We are deserving of everything coming, i am seeing... :(

Actually,if my memory serves me correctly, Jim Jones was, at one time, licensed in the state of Ohio with the UPCI. This was before he went to Cali and then to Guyana.

Just a little history..... LOL

Course, that does not make him a Christian.

[TJJJ]

I'm new here so hello to everyone. This thread caught my eye because I am a mormon. I was baptized into the church about six months ago. Before then, my family and I had been searching for a church to call home. But it seened like they all had the newage rockstar thing going on. I have nothing against such juvenile behavior if it helps one's walk with God,but it didn't help me and I grew tired of it. Sort of a putting away of childish things. I was a member of an apostolic church about ten yrs before. Anyway that's my history.

I joined the mormon church for a very simple reason: I saw how they treated one another. I'm not sure why they are considered a cult, and many of the things I read here are stuff I've never heard come from them at all. So many claim to be the "truth" but in all my searchings, they were the only ones who impressed me with what they were willing to do for others.

Friend, having been raised around Mormons, (My family on my dad's side are devout mormons) and having a heritage of mormonism (My anscestors came with Brighams Boys) I do encourage you to study the Mormon faith just a little deeper.

Very few, and I mean very few, people join because of the doctrine of mormonism. They get in because of the social programs, either bishops storehouse helping them, or because of the so called family focus, or because in Utah it helps them politically.

The problem with Mormonism is that it is demonic in origin.

Mormons lead the state of Utah, have a lot of control in Nevada, are very influential in Wyoming and Montana, control much of what goes on in Idaho, and power is their thing.

The problem with that is the spiritual side. They have tapped into another spirit that is not God's spirit.

Utah leads the nation in depression, suicides, prescription drugs for depression, misuse of pain killers, and many other areas relating to the mind.

For all their issues about family they have huge problems in that area.

Sexual abuse and incest is rampant in Utah. Huge huge problem. Course this goes back to Uncle Joe's teaching on polygamy and the spirit he introduced and followed. And yes, that is still believed today, even among the mainstream mormons. There are many that are just waiting for the official word to get another wife. This is not TIC. This is life here in Utah.

There are approx 40 - 50 thousand polygamist in the west, stretching from Arizona all the way up to the canadian border. Canada has their own seperate population of them as does Mexico.

This is a part of their doctrine and Uncle Joe made it salvational for their third heaven.

Polygamists do not get prosecuted here in Utah or the surrounding states. It is accepted by both the civil and mormon authorities. The only time they get in trouble is when the marriage is forced and the girl is under 15. That is the only time.

The fundamentalists (polygamists) believe that the mainstream Mormons are compromisers as they have let down the stand that Joe Smith taught as salvational. The Mainstream lds are waiting for their chance to jump back in and the number of polygamists is growing every year.

This is the result of the perverted spirit that Joe got into. The lds church followed that and brought that spirit to utah.

The mind problems they face here is related to their following the spirit of witchcraft that Joe was hooked into in New York.

Witchcraft and Mormonism go hand in hand. If you ever get the chance you need to go to the Mormon temple in SLC. The origional one. Then occultic symbols, the mysticism, the masonic symbols, they are all open for the world to see.

You see, the Mormon church woos people in through their outward niceness and their social programs, yet most people do not know the spiritual oppression that is behind that religion. Very very controlling.

Be very careful, they will try to get you hooked into marrying someone who is a mormon, just another hook to control.

I have been dealing with these people for almost 50 years. This is one controlling and demonic religion.

We have quite a few people that have come out of that religion into truth. It takes prayer and deliverance for most because of the spiritual oppression that exists there.

God bless.

PM me if you want more info.

[anon5]

That could not be further from the truth, wadr. All of your media is controlled, and bye largest arms dealers on the planet--your "Christian" leaders. And why do you call those Muslims, when Allah would clearly not claim them? Was Jim Jones a Christian? Was Hitler? Apparently. And "It is so passe and common its not even reported much anymore" is just comedy, sorry, to one who has been there. I feel safer in Egypt right now than i would in NYC...and i am exceedingly white. Yikes. We are deserving of everything coming, i am seeing... :(

Yes, but our govt and leaders don't do these things in the name of their religion. Neither did hitler, as cold an evil as he was. Now I can't deny Jim jones did, along with his followers. But it seems to me, that if anything, the media actually tries to go out of it's way to sugarcoat all the suicide bombings, while blowing out of proportion the behaviors if conservative christian types.

[Luke]

That could not be further from the truth, wadr. All of your media is controlled, and by the largest arms dealers on the planet--your "Christian" leaders. And why do you call those Muslims, when Allah would clearly not claim them? Was Jim Jones a Christian? Was Hitler? Apparently. And "It is so passe and common its not even reported much anymore" is just comedy, sorry, to one who has been there. I feel safer in Egypt right now than i would in NYC...and i am exceedingly white. Yikes. We are deserving of everything coming, i am seeing... :(

How can you say this when the only way for a muslim to know for sure that they are going to paradise is to die in jihad?

[shazeep]

well, really you are asking the wrong guy there--i would say that 'jihad' is surely misunderstood, as i believe this is supposed to be more a 'spiritual' jihad. as i read, the Beginning of Surahs makes plain that violence cannot be reconciled with the Qur'an; and i know many, many Muslims who don't seem to be too worried about not going to paradise. Again, i am persuaded that this apparent contradiction mirrors those found in Scripture, so that premises may be revealed, and the heart better seen.

[Luke]

well, really you are asking the wrong guy there--i would say that 'jihad' is surely misunderstood, as i believe this is supposed to be more a 'spiritual' jihad. as i read, the Beginning of Surahs makes plain that violence cannot be reconciled with the Qur'an; and i know many, many Muslims who don't seem to be too worried about not going to paradise. Again, i am persuaded that this apparent contradiction mirrors those found in Scripture, so that premises may be revealed, and the heart better seen.

The later surahs condone violence.

[shazeep]

ya, i read those; and it seemed so to me, too. again, i am not the guy to respond here, but i can say that i witnessed that their tv is much less violent than ours--or at least it was. also, the people were much less violent in general; their responses to others, etc. perhaps wii might enlighten us there, but in the absence of that i would reiterate that The Beginning of Surahs condemns violence in any form, word or deed, and that that is overriding. Again, possibly a purposeful conundrum, so that premises may be revealed? dunno. The Psalms advise you to bash babies heads in, too.

[anon5]

Friend, having been raised around Mormons, (My family on my dad's side are devout mormons) and having a heritage of mormonism (My anscestors came with Brighams Boys) I do encourage you to study the Mormon faith just a little deeper.

Very few, and I mean very few, people join because of the doctrine of mormonism. They get in because of the social programs, either bishops storehouse helping them, or because of the so called family focus, or because in Utah it helps them politically.

The problem with Mormonism is that it is demonic in origin.

Mormons lead the state of Utah, have a lot of control in Nevada, are very influential in Wyoming and Montana, control much of what goes on in Idaho, and power is their thing.

The problem with that is the spiritual side. They have tapped into another spirit that is not God's spirit.

Utah leads the nation in depression, suicides, prescription drugs for depression, misuse of pain killers, and many other areas relating to the mind.

For all their issues about family they have huge problems in that area.

Sexual abuse and incest is rampant in Utah. Huge huge problem. Course this goes back to Uncle Joe's teaching on polygamy and the spirit he introduced and followed. And yes, that is still believed today, even among the mainstream mormons. There are many that are just waiting for the official word to get another wife. This is not TIC. This is life here in Utah.

There are approx 40 - 50 thousand polygamist in the west, stretching from Arizona all the way up to the canadian border. Canada has their own seperate population of them as does Mexico.

This is a part of their doctrine and Uncle Joe made it salvational for their third heaven.

Polygamists do not get prosecuted here in Utah or the surrounding states. It is accepted by both the civil and mormon authorities. The only time they get in trouble is when the marriage is forced and the girl is under 15. That is the only time.

The fundamentalists (polygamists) believe that the mainstream Mormons are compromisers as they have let down the stand that Joe Smith taught as salvational. The Mainstream lds are waiting for their chance to jump back in and the number of polygamists is growing every year.

This is the result of the perverted spirit that Joe got into. The lds church followed that and brought that spirit to utah.

The mind problems they face here is related to their following the spirit of witchcraft that Joe was hooked into in New York.

Witchcraft and Mormonism go hand in hand. If you ever get the chance you need to go to the Mormon temple in SLC. The origional one. Then occultic symbols, the mysticism, the masonic symbols, they are all open for the world to see.

You see, the Mormon church woos people in through their outward niceness and their social programs, yet most people do not know the spiritual oppression that is behind that religion. Very very controlling.

Be very careful, they will try to get you hooked into marrying someone who is a mormon, just another hook to control.

I have been dealing with these people for almost 50 years. This is one controlling and demonic religion.

We have quite a few people that have come out of that religion into truth. It takes prayer and deliverance for most because of the spiritual oppression that exists there.

God bless.

PM me if you want more info.

I don't know anything about different abuses going on all the way in Utah. I dont live even close to it. I DO know that every religion has it's imperfect people. Even with apostolics. They also insist on marrying within their church. It's just good practice. I am not controlled in the least. I'm not told what clothes to wear, how to wear my hair, or even what I can wear when I swim. And everyone has their fringe groups.

[anon5]

I don't know anything about different abuses going on all the way in Utah. I dont live even close to it. I DO know that every religion has it's imperfect people. Even with apostolics. They also insist on marrying within their church. It's just good practice. I am not controlled in the least. I'm not told what clothes to wear, how to wear my hair, or even what I can wear when I swim. And everyone has their fringe groups.

For example; a man I know of is currently pastoring a church where the original pastor preached against eyeglasses, watches, and doctors. At least one of his babies died because he wouldn't take his wife to the doctor when in labor. THAT'S demonic. But we ALL struggle because we are human. And it was a quite common belief then. Does that make apostolic doctrine demonic? No. I've encountered some pretty hateful things on here already and I won't respond in kind.

All I KNOW is how my life has been irreversably changed. I have a desire now to serve others whether it's to change a flat tire, clean vomit off a homeless drunk, or just BE there for comfort. I can't really describe the change. People need to know they are children of God, andthat he loves them.

[anon5]

In closing I need to say that if it is preferred I leave, then I'll go. I knew the site owners were apostolic but when I looked through the posts, it appeared as if a whole plethora of beliefs were represented. Also, I noticed some misconceptions, I felt needed cleared
Up. (Or did I already say that?)

That being said, I must say I'm a bit stunned at the venom coming from a poster.

[jfrog]

In closing I need to say that if it is preferred I leave, then I'll go. I knew the site owners were apostolic but when I looked through the posts, it appeared as if a whole plethora of beliefs were represented. Also, I noticed some misconceptions, I felt needed cleared
Up. (Or did I already say that?)

That being said, I must say I'm a bit stunned at the venom coming from a poster.

LOL. Get used to it. You will have your defenders and you will have your detractors. What we prize here most of all is ones ability to defend his beliefs in an intelligent way. We may disagree in the end but we will respect you for the valuable points you raise in our discussions on whatever the topic may be.

This forum is open to everyone. Atheists, muslims, mormans, catholics, and every other belief system in the world. You are welcome here just don't expect a bed of roses.

[shazeep]

At least one of his babies died because he wouldn't take his wife to the doctor when in labor. THAT'S demonic.you say this, and i understand why--but did not God take this baby's life? In the natural order of things? After all, women do not really need a $20k hospital visit to have a child--or shouldn't, i don't think. I don't believe 'demonic,' wadr.

[anon5]

you say this, and i understand why--but did not God take this baby's life? In the natural order of things? After all, women do not really need a $20k hospital visit to have a child--or shouldn't, i don't think. I don't believe 'demonic,' wadr.

If it were HER choice then that's one thing, and maybe it was. But if I'm correct, the HUSBAND pushed for it. I don't know if God took the baby, or just allowed the natural consequence of his decision play out. I'm inclined to believe the latter.

Yes, hospital visits ARE expensive, and most births are routine. Based on what I understand, this one clearly wasn't, and rather then call a hospital, he just outright risked his wife's life, along with making negligible choices that killed his baby.


Thats the only reason I called it demonic, but the technicality of terminology is an issue.

[TJJJ]

In closing I need to say that if it is preferred I leave, then I'll go. I knew the site owners were apostolic but when I looked through the posts, it appeared as if a whole plethora of beliefs were represented. Also, I noticed some misconceptions, I felt needed cleared
Up. (Or did I already say that?)

That being said, I must say I'm a bit stunned at the venom coming from a poster.

Whoa, whoa whoa! There was no venom towards you my friend. You totally misread what I wrote and the spirit in which I wrote it.

I wrote about the LDS faith. I have lived here for decades, this is not a fringe group of them I am talking about and I apologize that you took it personally. I do not want you to leave and it is unfair that you feel this way without a chance for me to set the record straight. Again I apologize if you took it personal.

I am glad that you have found something that you feel helps you in your personal walk, but also understand my position. Having dealt with this religion for decades I also feel strongly about my position as well. That is all.

This is a thread asking for some clarification of what the LDS church believes, you gave your experience and I gave mine. Both are experiences and both have value.

The fact remains though that the LDS church has had, and continues to believe, some very strange and anti-Biblical beliefs. Yes, there are some Apostolics that have strange beliefs also but this thread is not about them.

Again forgive me for appearing to make it a personal jab towards you, that was not what it was intended to appear like.

[anon5]

One could also argue that God allowed men to invent hospitals and medicines, as a form of mercy to mankind, and so that women no longer had to suffer slow torture to bring kids into the world. Or die trying.

Possible death by slow torture? By all means let's keep that bit of history alive.
Just kidding )

[anon5]

Whoa, whoa whoa! There was no venom towards you my friend. You totally misread what I wrote and the spirit in which I wrote it.

I wrote about the LDS faith. I have lived here for decades, this is not a fringe group of them I am talking about and I apologize that you took it personally. I do not want you to leave and it is unfair that you feel this way without a chance for me to set the record straight. Again I apologize if you took it personal.

I am glad that you have found something that you feel helps you in your personal walk, but also understand my position. Having dealt with this religion for decades I also feel strongly about my position as well. That is all.

This is a thread asking for some clarification of what the LDS church believes, you gave your experience and I gave mine. Both are experiences and both have value.



The fact remains though that the LDS church has had, and continues to believe, some very strange and anti-Biblical beliefs. Yes, there are some Apostolics that have strange beliefs also but this thread is not about them.

Again forgive me for appearing to make it a personal jab towards you, that was not what it was intended to appear like.

It wasn't you I was talking about on the hateful comments. It was someone else on here. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Maybe there are different types of mormons out there. I DO know the ones here are nothing like that. They are the nicest, and most giving I ever encountered. They DO what Jesus said to do.
There are some doctrinal things I don't agree with, but I never agreed 100% of the time anywhere with anything.

[TJJJ]

It wasn't you I was talking about on the hateful comments. It was someone else on here. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Maybe there are different types of mormons out there. I DO know the ones here are nothing like that. They are the nicest, and most giving I ever encountered. They DO what Jesus said to do.
There are some doctrinal things I don't agree with, but I never agreed 100% of the time anywhere with anything.

Okay, thanks for the clarification on that. Please stay around and give some input, it is appreciated... in spite of what some of us say! LOL

I was reading your posts and let me say this about the LDS church OUTSIDE of Utah. They are two different breeds and even Mormons outside the state will tell you that. Course that is probably true of any denomination.

God bless!

[anon5]

Okay, thanks for the clarification on that. Please stay around and give some input, it is appreciated... in spite of what some of us say! LOL

I was reading your posts and let me say this about the LDS church OUTSIDE of Utah. They are two different breeds and even Mormons outside the state will tell you that. Course that is probably true of any denomination.

God bless!

That's what it sounds like based on your description. My husband has been talking about going to Utah and looking around at the temple. After what you just described, I'll keep an eye out for the things you mentioned. We only have a limited temple card right now, but from what I've seen in the one here, there are no freaky, mason style statues of any kind. I'll also pay attention to the people there, though I really hate looking for faults and shortcomings in others.

[anon5]

By the way, I like your Margaret Thatcher quote. I used to joke that Reagan should have dumped nancy and hooked up with her. Two unforgettable leaders. Unlike some politicians who we WISH we could forget.

[shazeep]

If it were HER choice then that's one thing, and maybe it was. But if I'm correct, the HUSBAND pushed for it. I don't know if God took the baby, or just allowed the natural consequence of his decision play out. I'm inclined to believe the latter.

Yes, hospital visits ARE expensive, and most births are routine. Based on what I understand, this one clearly wasn't, and rather then call a hospital, he just outright risked his wife's life, along with making negligible choices that killed his baby.


Thats the only reason I called it demonic, but the technicality of terminology is an issue.this all seems to deny, to me, that the life was in God's hands. I'm not against hospitals--in other countries, where they are not abused--just what they have become here.

[anon5]

this all seems to deny, to me, that the life was in God's hands. I'm not against hospitals--in other countries, where they are not abused--just what they have become here.

Yeah, I understand. I think in the end God works things out. Though I don't pretend to know the details of it all. I do support free will. I just don't believe in this day and age a woman should be forced to endure torturous agony if the means are available to prevent it.

Under no circumstances is it considered acceptable for men to lie at home writhing in pain.

Our medical ins.system is indeed broken.

But I also believe medicine is in Gods hands. I have a sneaking suspicion that id one of the reasons AIDS isn't cured after all these years.

[anon5]

this all seems to deny, to me, that the life was in God's hands. I'm not against hospitals--in other countries, where they are not abused--just what they have become here.

Yeah, I understand. I think in the end God works things out. Though I don't pretend to know the details of it all. I do support free will. I just don't believe in this day and age a woman should be forced to endure torturous agony if the means are available to prevent it.

Under no circumstances is it considered acceptable for men to lie at home writhing in pain.

Our medical ins.system is indeed broken.

[shazeep]

to that i would say that she ultimately must be true to herself, which she obv was doing if she obeyed his wishes. she was free to sneak away, iow.

[anon5]

to that i would say that she ultimately must be true to herself, which she obv was doing if she obeyed his wishes. she was free to sneak away, iow.

Free will is free will, but I can tell you from personal experience that a woman in labor is not often in her right mind. She is in a VERY vulnerable position. In this case, she no doubt feared some kind retribution for going against his wishes, and in labor she probably COULDN'T sneak sway, or even walk.

He chose not to be a man and take care if his vulnetable and pregnant wife, and it cost him. It's just that simple.

[shazeep]

hmm. you gotta believe that they had discussed this beforehand--she was having a baby outside the medical system already, yes? as difficult as it may be to look in on from the outside, i'm not sure it is fair to say he failed. sometimes, for whatever reason, congenital defect, maybe (that we try to 'save,' and perpetuate even, with our human good), newborns die, it is the natural order, i would say. you can't believe that he wanted his child to die; but he was strong enough--one hopes--to trust God, even after the fact. harsh, tho.

[anon5]

hmm. you gotta believe that they had discussed this beforehand--she was having a baby outside the medical system already, yes? as difficult as it may be to look in on from the outside, i'm not sure it is fair to say he failed. sometimes, for whatever reason, congenital defect, maybe (that we try to 'save,' and perpetuate even, with our human good), newborns die, it is the natural order, i would say. you can't believe that he wanted his child to die; but he was strong enough--one hopes--to trust God, even after the fact. harsh, tho.


Well, it wasn't a birth defect, and they didn't discuss ANYTHING. He said what they were going to do. Period. Anyway, I don't want to get fixated over arguing about this one issue. They're both gone now and so I suppose it doesn't matter.

I actually know more to the story. I just can't tell it without revealing who they are. I will say as a wife, even if something were discussed beforehand, I'd like to think my husband would step up and get help if me or our childs life were in danger.

[Timmy]

The problem with Mormonism is that it is demonic in origin.
No. This religions was started by humans, just as all religions were.

For example; a man I know of is currently pastoring a church where the original pastor preached against eyeglasses, watches, and doctors. At least one of his babies died because he wouldn't take his wife to the doctor when in labor. THAT'S demonic.
No. That's human.

[shazeep]

No. This religions was started by humans, just as all religions were.yup

[shazeep]

No. That's human.hmm, i would disagree. humans do not understand it, for the most part, right?

[Monterrey]

Ya gotta understand, Timmy does not believe in the spirit world at all. Right Timmy?

[shazeep]

I'd like to think my husband would step up and get help if me or our childs life were in danger.i have been arguing the other side because i see reflection here of "...if your kid is just completely recalcitrant, cannot be handled, stone him" paraphrased; also with the stoning of homosexuals. It seems harsh, but this is from a human pov, wherein we fear physical death, or otherwise place what i am convinced is a false significance on it--when every direct indication from God or Christ tells me that physical death is insignificant to God. It is--or at least may be--the loving thing to do in these cases. I can only imagine how hard this must have been for this father, and doubt that i could have done it myself; but there is no denying, to me, that God held this life in His hands, and God determined the time of death. To what purpose i can't imagine--seems awful harsh. just my opinion.

The alt to me seems to be, "Is my child going to die? Well, i have a better idea than God--we can go to a doctor, who can save the child's life," although i'm sure there are other valid povs.

[shazeep]

No. This religions was started by humans, just as all religions were.This even fits our primary definition of 'religion-' "man's attempts to reach God."

[shazeep]

Ya gotta understand, Timmy does not believe in the spirit world at all. Right Timmy?:popcorn2

[shazeep]

i repost these because they are the next things i saw:

"...it may very well be that God has answered your prayer for help with a ambulance and not a instant healing.

I've found that there is this huge disconnect in reality with churches involving sickness and death...I hear "Its not Gods will...rebuke this...rebuke that...by His stripes we are healed" As if it is some sort of confusion as to the nature of life and its struggles as if people think "Im a child of God this isnt supposed to happen like this to me!"...Well it can and it does.Saddest sight in the world is a mom with kids frantically crying and screaming in tongues in a ER right before the doc calls time of death.Miracles happen...but sometimes life sucks...we get sick without rhyme or reason and we die and sometimes we die painfully and horribly with no explanation. Pastors...Pagans...Sinners...Saints... at the point of death their lives meet on a level playing field...the only difference is where they go afterwards."

(i would disagree with the last part; the dead Samuel at "the witch of Endor," as well as Ecclesiastes, tell me that we all go to the same place. but regardless.)

"If it were not for medical science, my husband would be gone....so I am very thankful he is still here. On the flip-side, sometimes I wonder if we might carry the science thing too far and not trust enough..."

[Timmy]

Ya gotta understand, Timmy does not believe in the spirit world at all. Right Timmy?

Correct. At least, my view is that it is very, very unlikely to exist. The simplest explanation is usually the right one.

[shazeep]

Correct. At least, my view is that it is very, very unlikely to exist. The simplest explanation is usually the right one.Wow, how sad is that? So, you totally disbelieve in what Scripture calls the most important part, and completely buy the illusion.

[anon5]

Correct. At least, my view is that it is very, very unlikely to exist. The simplest explanation is usually the right one.

Wow! And to think a few posted snarky comments complaining of a MORMON being here. I'm not complaining. It's good to have balance in forum's.

[shazeep]

actually, Timmy is not being truthful, i don't think--he has admitted to being terminally mad at God.

[Timmy]

Wow! And to think a few posted snarky comments complaining of a MORMON being here. I'm not complaining. It's good to have balance in forum's.

Balance? A Mormon, a Muslim, couple of skeptics, and a zillion Apostolic Pentecostals? Ya call that balance?

:lol

Just kidding. I appreciate AFF for allowing me to be here, and for many years actually. Check my post count! It's ridiculous! :lol

[Timmy]

BTW, welcome, Anon. Nice to meet you. :)

[shazeep]

hey, don't forget the Heretic! :D those Apo/Pents don't have a chance, imo! :lol

[anon5]

BTW, welcome, Anon. Nice to meet you. :)


Thanks. You too.

[jfrog]

Balance? A Mormon, a Muslim, couple of skeptics, and a zillion Apostolic Pentecostals? Ya call that balance?

:lol

Just kidding. I appreciate AFF for allowing me to be here, and for many years actually. Check my post count! It's ridiculous! :lol

Yay, that you are allowed to remain here indicates they aren't true apostolic pentecostals.... Epley would never have allowed you around so long!

[shazeep]

:lol doesn't hurt to pray for him

[anon5]

In closing I need to say that if it is preferred I leave, then I'll go. I knew the site owners were apostolic but when I looked through the posts, it appeared as if a whole plethora of beliefs were represented. Also, I noticed some misconceptions, I felt needed cleared
Up. (Or did I already say that?)

That being said, I must say I'm a bit stunned at the venom coming from a poster.

I noticed that poster appears to have gone back and erased the hateful things. I appreciate that, and the sentiment behind it.

Thank you.

[anon5]

Yay, that you are allowed to remain here indicates they aren't true apostolic pentecostals.... Epley would never have allowed you around so long!

Where is Epley? Haven't sparred with him on here in awhile. Anyone know if he's still preaching at Racine?

[KeptByTheWord]

He's still in Racine, in fact had a campmeeting at his church just last weekend, I believe.

[jfrog]

Where is Epley? Haven't sparred with him on here in awhile. Anyone know if he's still preaching at Racine?

He doesn't come here much.

[Timmy]

There's an episode of South Park that clears this all up. Can't believe nobody has mentioned it before. Shouldn't link it here. Language and stuff. But it's easily googled. ;)

[Timmy]

Here's a linkable video. Produced by anti-Mormon ministry, I think. But I wonder how accurate it is. Anon5, would you care to comment?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HSlbuli7HM

[anon5]

Here's a linkable video. Produced by anti-Mormon ministry, I think. But I wonder how accurate it is. Anon5, would you care to comment?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HSlbuli7HM

Wow. Yes I watched the video, and......WOW!! I don't think it was made by anti mormons. It just doesn't quite have that feel to it. However, in all the videos I have seen BY the mormon church, I have seen NOTHING even close to this.

There is a few truths scattered throughout the video, but the bulk of it is cr@p. Can I type that word? All the gods on all the planets, and having orgies???? Ummm, no. I'll tell you what I was told: God indeed sent us here to live, learn and grow. Satan thought we needed to be forced to do things. Jesus said no, we should be allowed free agency (free will). If we choose his atonement, which we needed after Adam and Eves fall, which God knew about ahead of time and planned for, then we will go back to live with him. The extra stuff about having relations with Mary, I have also never heard of.

The scriptures do mention being cursed with blackness of skin, but honestly, I just thought that meant they got gangrene or some similar disease. Gangrene WOULD be a curse, especially back then, but simply having darker skin? What's the big deal with that?

I don't know WHO made this video.

[anon5]

Oh and it is also the belief that Satan was cast out because he threw a huge fit and rebelled over us having free will. But I don't believe that because it says outright in the bible that he tried to take over heaven and dethrone God.

I guess if you think about it, one is just as believable as the other. Mormons are leary of the king James bible because it was translated by a bunch of Catholics.

[shazeep]

There's an episode of South Park that clears this all up. Can't believe nobody has mentioned it before. Shouldn't link it here. Language and stuff. But it's easily googled. ;)i've mentioned that 'the correct answer is 'Mormons' here before; but i guess no one got the reference. SP was the most socially relevant tv going, the first couple years. I think the mantle has passed to The Boondocks now...and i am anti-tv, btw.

[anon5]

Wow. Yes I watched the video, and......WOW!! I don't think it was made by anti mormons. It just doesn't quite have that feel to it. However, in all the videos I have seen BY the mormon church, I have seen NOTHING even close to this.

There is a few truths scattered throughout the video, but the bulk of it is cr@p. Can I type that word? All the gods on all the planets, and having orgies???? Ummm, no. I'll tell you what I was told: God indeed sent us here to live, learn and grow. Satan thought we needed to be forced to do things. Jesus said no, we should be allowed free agency (free will). If we choose his atonement, which we needed after Adam and Eves fall, which God knew about ahead of time and planned for, then we will go back to live with him. The extra stuff about having relations with Mary, I have also never heard of.

The scriptures do mention being cursed with blackness of skin, but honestly, I just thought that meant they got gangrene or some similar disease. Gangrene WOULD be a curse, especially back then, but simply having darker skin? What's the big deal with that?

I don't know WHO made this video.

It actually has the feel of being mormon produced. If so, then it was from years ago. Like other beliefs, some attitudes and opinions change over time.

There are some things with the doctrine I don't agree with, but nothing I'd consider deal breakers.
Mormons used to have rather racist views back in the day, but didn't most everyone?

[Timmy]

It actually has the feel of being mormon produced. If so, then it was from years ago. Like other beliefs, some attitudes and opinions change over time.

There are some things with the doctrine I don't agree with, but nothing I'd consider deal breakers.
Mormons used to have rather racist views back in the day, but didn't most everyone?

Thanks for commenting.

[DRPAULMARTIN]

I was raised in an All-Black, store front, Apostolic, oneness, Jesus name Pentecostal church. I went astray for a few years and joined the Mainstream Salt Lake Utah Based Mormon church. I joined because I felt alone, and wanted a place to "Fit in" and "Feel Needed". Mormons are lovely, sincere, civic-minded people. Their charity work they do is unmatched by any faith of any sort.

But there is such a thing as being sincere, yet sincerely mis-led and deceived. In the end, I found out the faith I was raised with was right, and was all I truly needed. I care about the mormons and wish them well, but the "Jesus" they claim to worship is NOT the Jesus of the Bible.

Dr. Paul S. Martin