Paul's gospel must be accepted

[newnature]

Paul’s gospel must be accepted, it must be believed today, and you can be sure that confusion concerning that gospel through the use of a counterfeit gospel; a gospel that looks so much like Paul’s gospel that you’d not know the difference, if you didn’t clearly know Paul’s gospel, will be Satan’s focus in this age of grace.

One of Satan’s purpose in this age of grace is to confuse Paul’s gospel with a gospel so nearly to it, and there are many people out there today saying all you have to do is to believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and you’re saved. They believe this in almost every church across the board that Christ died, was buried and rose again, but what do they believe was accomplished by that death, burial and resurrection?

In their minds, they were separating themselves for God by their sin, and Paul is saying that God has already reconciled you where your sins are concerned. God is reconciled where the sins of the world are concerned, because he imputed those sins to Christ, that all who would believe what he imputed to Christ, that that resolved the sin issue forever, and are now joined to his son and have his righteousness freely counted to them, or imputed to their account.

Paul called it the ministry of reconciliation, Christ fulfilled the law for us, so we are identified with the righteousness of Christ the moment we take God at his word, obedient to the faith, concerning what Christ accomplished on our behalf. Today our service comes not out of apprehension to any of those things; our service today comes based solely on our appreciation for what Christ has already done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dcdkkkgEcE

[Michael The Disciple]

Paul’s gospel must be accepted, it must be believed today, and you can be sure that confusion concerning that gospel through the use of a counterfeit gospel; a gospel that looks so much like Paul’s gospel that you’d not know the difference, if you didn’t clearly know Paul’s gospel, will be Satan’s focus in this age of grace.

One of Satan’s purpose in this age of grace is to confuse Paul’s gospel with a gospel so nearly to it, and there are many people out there today saying all you have to do is to believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and you’re saved. They believe this in almost every church across the board that Christ died, was buried and rose again, but what do they believe was accomplished by that death, burial and resurrection?

In their minds, they were separating themselves for God by their sin, and Paul is saying that God has already reconciled you where your sins are concerned. God is reconciled where the sins of the world are concerned, because he imputed those sins to Christ, that all who would believe what he imputed to Christ, that that resolved the sin issue forever, and are now joined to his son and have his righteousness freely counted to them, or imputed to their account.

Paul called it the ministry of reconciliation, Christ fulfilled the law for us, so we are identified with the righteousness of Christ the moment we take God at his word, obedient to the faith, concerning what Christ accomplished on our behalf. Today our service comes not out of apprehension to any of those things; our service today comes based solely on our appreciation for what Christ has already done.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dcdkkkgEcE

It sounds like you are saying that God will not hold future sins against a believer?

[Michael The Disciple]

Im at about 17 minutes into this video. It is so disgusting. He twists the scriptures by applying scriptures that pertain to Christians BEFORE they were saved to them now. He tries hard to convince his hearers they need do NOTHING at all to be saved. As pathetic as he is he is just one of the huge number saying the same thing.

He thinks Paul taught a different gospel than Jesus.

He teaches a Christian is sinning if they even repent of a sin.

What is this "Preachers" name?

[Michael The Disciple]

26 minutes it its getting worse. Once saved always saved in full strength.

[Michael The Disciple]

36 minutes in. Once reconciled always reconciled. His belief is that joy comes from NEVER giving a thought to sin.

[Originalist]

Im at about 17 minutes into this video. It is so disgusting. He twists the scriptures by applying scriptures that pertain to Christians BEFORE they were saved to them now. He tries hard to convince his hearers they need do NOTHING at all to be saved. As pathetic as he is he is just one of the huge number saying the same thing.

He thinks Paul taught a different gospel than Jesus.

He teaches a Christian is sinning if they even repent of a sin.

What is this "Preachers" name?

I believe that God did indeed impute the sins of the whole world to Christ. I believe it for this reason that he has not destroyed the world. I believe his blood bought every sinner for God. But Christ's sacrifice also made him LORD, and forgiveness of sins is attached to his Lordship. Therefore, until a sinner repents and submits to Christ and HIS righteousness, they are still a rebel and enemy to God. They are refusing to submit the vessels God purchased to live in (their own bodies) to his dominion. By doing so , they are trampling under foot the blood of the Son of God ....

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.
28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e]
31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

[TGBTG]

2 Cor 5
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

God has reconciled the whole world to himself but RECONCILIATION takes more than one party. Just like Paul said, "Be ye reconciled to God."

God's done his part..man has to do his part...(which by the way totally destroys the notion of LIMITED ATONEMENT...but that's a whole 'nother can of worms)

[crakjak]

2 Cor 5
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

God has reconciled the whole world to himself but RECONCILIATION takes more than one party. Just like Paul said, "Be ye reconciled to God."

God's done his part..man has to do his part...(which by the way totally destroys the notion of LIMITED ATONEMENT...but that's a whole 'nother can of worms)

Did the sin offering by the high priest at the holy of holies cover the sins of all Israel? Did Adams sin infect the whole human race?

So, the blood of Christ, the Son of God is less effective than these?

All will be brought thru the necessary "refiner's fire" to open their eyes but evenually ever one will declare that "...Jesus is LORD, to the glory of God the Father..." Men can continue in rebellion, and they will lose the life that is possible for them in this age, but they will not continue in rebellion, for His power and His love is irresistible!! He will not fail in all He has purposed to do. 1 Tim 4:10.

One's belief does not save them, one's salvation (thur Christ's righteous act) causes one to believe. I am not saved because I believe, I believe because I am saved.

[preacher clk]

Paul preached a message to a church that had been bought by the blood of Christ. These people had to have the Acts 2 experience. We can find anything in the Scripture to justify ourselves yet die lost.

[crakjak]

Paul preached a message to a church that had been bought by the blood of Christ. These people had to have the Acts 2 experience. We can find anything in the Scripture to justify ourselves yet die lost.

Really???? So, in your opinion, it is dangerous to search the Scriptures????

[Luke]

To say that a person believes because they are saved is unbiblical and has NO scriptural backing! WE MUST BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF JESUS IN ORDER TO BE SAVED!!!

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

[Luke]

We should search the scriptures but we should take care not to make the scriptures mean what makes us happy.

[crakjak]

To say that a person believes because they are saved is unbiblical and has NO scriptural backing! WE MUST BELIEVE ON THE NAME OF JESUS IN ORDER TO BE SAVED!!!

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

When we believe what Jesus has already accomplished, we then enter into salvation that He paid for, our belief is not what saves us. Of course, if someone doesn't believe they do not live in the privilege of their salvation. According it verse 31, your family is also saved by your belief.

[crakjak]

We should search the scriptures but we should take care not to make the scriptures mean what makes us happy.

I thought is was "Good News", doesn't that make us happy?? Does me.

[Luke]

My point was that we should not twist the scripture to make it mean what we want it to mean.. Also when the father got saved the rest of the family would have naturally followed. We are secret grace THROUGH FAITH Ephesians 2:8 . I agree our believe does not save us but our lack of belief will most certainly send us to hell. It is a sad thought that not every one goes to heaven and that some will in up in hell for all eternity but this is what the Bible teaches. There is NOT ONE SINGLE verse that teaches that after someone is in the lake of fire they ever get out. If there are any please show them to me and I will change my mind but unfortunately they don't exist.

[crakjak]

My point was that we should not twist the scripture to make it mean what we want it to mean.. Also when the father got saved the rest of the family would have naturally followed. We are secret grace THROUGH FAITH Ephesians 2:8 . I agree our believe does not save us but our lack of belief will most certainly send us to hell. It is a sad thought that not every one goes to heaven and that some will in up in hell for all eternity but this is what the Bible teaches. There is NOT ONE SINGLE verse that teaches that after someone is in the lake of fire they ever get out. If there are any please show them to me and I will change my mind but unfortunately they don't exist.

This study cannot be done with sound bites, very effectively. However, most references to "hell" in scripture is speaking of the grave.

A good start would be to do an in depth study of the history of the use of the word, in the earlier scriptures, especially the Septuagint.

As for the "lake of fire" there is no reference to this except in the Revelation.

It is amazing how most Christians, especially, theologians interpret Revelation. We read about the woman riding on the beast, the red dragon with seven heads, the harlot sitting on the many waters, and the people standing on the sea of glass mixed with fire, and they all say, "Oh, obviously these things are symbolic."

But as soon as they get to the "lake of fire". "Oh, no, that is totally literal!"

John clearly state in the beginning of the book, that ALL of Revelation is a vision. Fire in scripture is almost always figurative or symbolic with the purpose of purifying, refining, and for accomplishing general good. The Greek word for fire is the word from which we get all forms of our English word, pure and purifying. Mark 9:49 tells us that everyone must be put thru fire: "For everyone will be salted with fire".

So, yes there has been alot of distortion and twisting of scripture.

[Luke]

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. It also says that every sacrifice shall be salted with salt, so are you saying that since it says "every sacrifice shall be salted with fire" that this means all must pass through the lake of fire, then you must also believe that since it says "every sacrifice shall be salted with salt" therefore, we must all pass through a lake of salt also.

I didn't bring up the lake of fire and make it a key point of my doctrine, you did. Therefore your argument that it is only mentioned in Revelation doesn't hurt my argument, but yours.
though I do believe in a literal lake of fire.

[crakjak]

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. It also says that every sacrifice shall be salted with salt, so are you saying that since it says "every sacrifice shall be salted with fire" that this means all must pass through the lake of fire, then you must also believe that since it says "every sacrifice shall be salted with salt" therefore, we must all pass through a lake of salt also.

I didn't bring up the lake of fire and make it a key point of my doctrine, you did. Therefore your argument that it is only mentioned in Revelation doesn't hurt my argument, but yours.
though I do believe in a literal lake of fire.

We either submit to God now, or we will go thru the lake of fire, our natural desires will come to understand and embrace the righteousness of God. Eternal life is "...to know the Son of God, and the Father who sent him..." You have NO scripture basis for a literal lake of fire.

[Luke]

You are the one that keeps saying people must go through the lake of fire not me. I do have scripture for a place of everlasting torment. You on the other hand have no scripture that teaches a second chance after a person has died.

[bbyrd009]

:popcorn2

[bbyrd009]

you might redefine 'everlasting' as 'it will always, always be like this,' maybe.

[Luke]

you might redefine 'everlasting' as 'it will always, always be like this,' maybe.

Very true everlasting = never ending!

[Truthseeker]

Im at about 17 minutes into this video. It is so disgusting. He twists the scriptures by applying scriptures that pertain to Christians BEFORE they were saved to them now. He tries hard to convince his hearers they need do NOTHING at all to be saved. As pathetic as he is he is just one of the huge number saying the same thing.

He thinks Paul taught a different gospel than Jesus.

He teaches a Christian is sinning if they even repent of a sin.

What is this "Preachers" name?



How much obedience does it take to make to heaven? 100%? If so, are you 100% right now?

[Truthseeker]

interesting scripture:

Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies , we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
KJV


when were they reconciled? "when we were enemies" Doesn't say "after you believed"

[Luke]

Up until we are saved we are enemies of God so we are reconciled to God when we are saved.

[Michael The Disciple]

How much obedience does it take to make to heaven? 100%? If so, are you 100% right now?

Jesus said be perfect. He said only those who do the Fathers will are going to Heaven. Jesus said you shall not test the Lord your God.

If one tries to enter Heaven with sin in their life they are testing God to see if they can. No one has the assurance of Heaven unless they are joined to Christ.

This "preacher" is one of many the enemy is using to confuse and deceive concerning straight forward issues.

[Truthseeker]

Jesus said be perfect. He said only those who do the Fathers will are going to Heaven. Jesus said you shall not test the Lord your God.

If one tries to enter Heaven with sin in their life they are testing God to see if they can. No one has the assurance of Heaven unless they are joined to Christ.

This "preacher" is one of many the enemy is using to confuse and deceive straght forward issues.

You dint answer the question. Are you 100% obedient now?

[Truthseeker]

Up until we are saved we are enemies of God so we are reconciled to God when we are saved.

It didn't say that.

[Michael The Disciple]

You dint answer the question. Are you 100% obedient now?

Consider this. If I had a sin or sins in my life would that excuse anyone else? Of course not. It would just mean I who taught the truth of Bible Perfection either was a hypocrite or simply failed God.

Everyone else who might then mock me would still be fully accountable to doing Gods will.

When we ARE doing Gods will on a regular basis does that make us something great? Super spiritual?

Luke 17:7-10

7But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle , will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat ?8And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup , and gird thyself , and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken ; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink ?9Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.10So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say , We are unprofitable servants : we have done that which was our duty to do .

[crakjak]

Up until we are saved we are enemies of God so we are reconciled to God when we are saved.

We were reconciled to God at the cross, though you may continue to walk paths of destruction. The act of Adam was attributed to ALL men, how much more the act of righteousness of that ONE man??? Just because a man doesn't believe or acknowledge the effect of Adam's sin, it doesn't diminish the fact of everyone's sin. Just because a man hasn't come to recognize the reconciliation of Christ yet, it does not diminish the fact of his reconciliation. With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible. Preach as Paul did the "ministry of reconciliation" so that men may embrace the truth, and enter into the life the that already is theirs.
God is love, and though he is angered by evil and its effect on His creation, LOVE never fails. Don't forget God, created the world and all that is in it, therefore the conditions for evil is no surprise to Him. All things were created by Him and for Him, and without Him nothing that was made would have been made. All things will return to the Father, that He may be "...all in all..." He will not tolerate evil when the redemption is complete, the idea that He will maintain evil & human torment endlessly is completely impossible.

[Truthseeker]

Consider this. If I had a sin or sins in my life would that excuse anyone else? Of course not. It would just mean I who taught the truth of Bible Perfection either was a hypocrite or simply failed God.

Everyone else who might then mock me would still be fully accountable to doing Gods will.

When we ARE doing Gods will on a regular basis does that make us something great? Super spiritual?

Luke 17:7-10

7But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle , will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat ?8And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup , and gird thyself , and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken ; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink ?9Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.10So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say , We are unprofitable servants : we have done that which was our duty to do .

Ok you are not going to answer. I will say my answer would be no i am not 100% obedient/submitted to God. Correct me if wrong but your answer probably the same.If so, if you die would you be lost formissing the mark of 100%?

[Luke]

I would agree that no sin can or will enter heaven. We must live holy lives if we are to make it into heaven

[crakjak]

I would agree that no sin can or will enter heaven. We must live holy lives if we are to make it into heaven

Many say that God cannot tolerate sin. This obvisious is not true, for He has tolerated it since Eden!!! He created the context for sin and evil to exist, it purpose is a part of His plan. It is not that it is good, it is not, it is simply that it has its purpose in buffeting and maturing humanity. If it did not have a purpose God would not have allow it.

The above is an established fact, the question is: Will Christianity learn its purpose, and recieve the growth in spite it, or will we simply rail at sin and evil!!!

If the new earth is here, God already allows sins. Of course, He will eventually redeem all the pain and suffering, as all come to confess Jesus as Lord.

[Michael The Disciple]

Ok you are not going to answer. I will say my answer would be no i am not 100% obedient/submitted to God. Correct me if wrong but your answer probably the same.If so, if you die would you be lost formissing the mark of 100%?

Well if we know we have sin in our lives we should be very afraid. If I knew I had a sin in my life I realize from scripture that my soul would be in grave danger. If one confess the sin and repents they can start over.

If one allows the sin to stay....and when I say "sin" I mean something described in the scriptures as a sin they can expect fiery judment according to the Apostole.

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Heb. 10:26

So whether it be you or whether it be me NO ONE should expect to see Heaven if there is sin in their life.

[TGBTG]

interesting scripture:

Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies , we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
KJV


when were they reconciled? "when we were enemies" Doesn't say "after you believed"

2 Cor 5
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God
21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Yes, God has RECONCILED US ALL to himself WHILE we were his enemies through the death of his Son. Jesus died for us while we yet SINNERS.

But notice, Paul then goes on to say "Be reconciled to God"

God's done his part, that is "not counting men's sins against them."
But man has to do his part by receiving the gift of righteousness by faith in Christ.

[TGBTG]

To the UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION proponents:

This is the difference between the sin through Adam and the righteousness through Jesus Christ:

Rom 5
16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Adam's sin resulted in condemnation for all.
Jesus' obedience resulted in justification for all (not counting men's sins against them).

The difference HOWEVER is shown in both Rom 5:17 and 2 Cor 5:20
Rom 5:17 says "those who RECEIVE God's grace"
2 Cor 5:20 says "Be reconciled to God"
So we see that man has to receive the grace of God

In a nutshell, this was/is Paul's gospel: "God has reconciled you to himself. Now, reconcile yourself to God."

Reconciliation takes MORE than one party.
Forgiveness can occur as a result on ONLY ONE party's effort, but it takes both parties involved for reconciliation to occur.

UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION is therefore false based on the following:
1. That sinful man does not have to consciously receive the grace of God (EVEN THOUGH Rom 5:17 and 2 Cor 5:20 says man has to put his faith in Jesus Christ to be justifed)
2. If justification is received without belief in Christ (i.e no effort from man) just like condemnation was received from Adam (without effort from man), then those who do not believe in Christ should not have to go through the "refiner's fire" (as universal reconciliation claims).
That is, since ALL MEN partake of God's justification through Christ without even putting their faith in Jesus, then, ALL men should go straight to heaven.

Therefore UNIVERSALISTS, by claiming that unrepentant sinners will go through the "refiner's fire" PROVE (unfortunately for their doctrine) that an unrepentant sinner is NOT justified in the sight of God.
Therefore, their whole claim that justification is received EXACTLY the same way the condemnation was received falls into shambles.

My UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION proponents, if ALL men receive justification through Christ (without belief) just like condemnation through Adam (without belief), then, why do you teach that unrepentant sinners will still go through the "refiner's fire?"

Now, on the other extreme is LIMITED ATONEMENT. This is based on the belief that because some people will go to the lake of fire, therefore, their sins MUST not have been atoned for by Jesus Christ.
Again, the answer to this teaching is found in Rom 5:17 and 2 Cor 5:20
1. We were reconciled to God while we were his enemies by Christ's death
2. We need to receive the grace of God through faith in Christ.

So both UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION and LIMITED ATONEMENT are wrong.

[Truthseeker]

I would agree that no sin can or will enter heaven. We must live holy lives if we are to make it into heaven

Are you 100% sin free?

[Truthseeker]

Well if we know we have sin in our lives we should be very afraid. If I knew I had a sin in my life I realize from scripture that my soul would be in grave danger. If one confess the sin and repents they can start over.

If one allows the sin to stay....and when I say "sin" I mean something described in the scriptures as a sin they can expect fiery judment according to the Apostole.

26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. Heb. 10:26

So whether it be you or whether it be me NO ONE should expect to see Heaven if there is sin in their life.

So you have no sin right now?

[Michael The Disciple]

So you have no sin right now?

No I am sitting here looking at the computer screen and not committing any sin. Some teach you cant go one day without sin. Some teach one hour. Some teach one minute. Some believe we ARE sin in effect.

[Truthseeker]

No I am sitting here looking at the computer screen and not committing any sin.

Talking about your lifestyle in general. walking in perfection?

[TGBTG]

Ok you are not going to answer. I will say my answer would be no i am not 100% obedient/submitted to God. Correct me if wrong but your answer probably the same.If so, if you die would you be lost formissing the mark of 100%?

Talking about your lifestyle in general. walking in perfection?

Truthseeker, I believe MTD is echoing the thoughts of Apostle John here:

1 John 2
1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world.

Like John said, "We should not sin, BUT if we sin, we have an advocate with the Father: Jesus Christ."

I don't think it is a matter of "I have reached a sin-free state", but rather we should be so God conscious that we love what he loves and hate what he hates.

Looking at:
1 John 1
6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all[b] sin.

The blood continuously cleanses us AS WE WALK in the light.

[crakjak]

To the UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION proponents:

This is the difference between the sin through Adam and the righteousness through Jesus Christ:

Rom 5
16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Adam's sin resulted in condemnation for all.
Jesus' obedience resulted in justification for all (not counting men's sins against them).

The difference HOWEVER is shown in both Rom 5:17 and 2 Cor 5:20
Rom 5:17 says "those who RECEIVE God's grace"
2 Cor 5:20 says "Be reconciled to God"
So we see that man has to receive the grace of God

In a nutshell, this was/is Paul's gospel: "God has reconciled you to himself. Now, reconcile yourself to God."

Reconciliation takes MORE than one party.
Forgiveness can occur as a result on ONLY ONE party's effort, but it takes both parties involved for reconciliation to occur.

UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION is therefore false based on the following:
1. That sinful man does not have to consciously receive the grace of God (EVEN THOUGH Rom 5:17 and 2 Cor 5:20 says man has to put his faith in Jesus Christ to be justifed)
2. If justification is received without belief in Christ (i.e no effort from man) just like condemnation was received from Adam (without effort from man), then those who do not believe in Christ should not have to go through the "refiner's fire" (as universal reconciliation claims).
That is, since ALL MEN partake of God's justification through Christ without even putting their faith in Jesus, then, ALL men should go straight to heaven.

Therefore UNIVERSALISTS, by claiming that unrepentant sinners will go through the "refiner's fire" PROVE (unfortunately for their doctrine) that an unrepentant sinner is NOT justified in the sight of God.
Therefore, their whole claim that justification is received EXACTLY the same way the condemnation was received falls into shambles.

My UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION proponents, if ALL men receive justification through Christ (without belief) just like condemnation through Adam (without belief), then, why do you teach that unrepentant sinners will still go through the "refiner's fire?"

Now, on the other extreme is LIMITED ATONEMENT. This is based on the belief that because some people will go to the lake of fire, therefore, their sins MUST not have been atoned for by Jesus Christ.
Again, the answer to this teaching is found in Rom 5:17 and 2 Cor 5:20
1. We were reconciled to God while we were his enemies by Christ's death
2. We need to receive the grace of God through faith in Christ.

So both UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION and LIMITED ATONEMENT are wrong.

My friend, you contradict yourself. Our reconcilication is the grace of God, thru Christ. Our maturity in Christ requires our participation, some will not come to full stature of Christ without the refiners fire.

You have to acknowledge that we WERE reconciled to God WHILE we were yet sinner, or else deny the Word of God.

Why is it a problem for folks to go thru the refiners fire??? None of us have reach the full stature of Christ. Believers have to go thru it in this life, plus their works must be tried by fire at the judgement seat of Christ. So your declarations are not sound. Scripture says, that ALL must be salted with fire, no one is automatically exempt just because they are reconciled. Maturity is God's objective, not robotics, so that His righteousness is a natural outflowing of who we have become in Christ.

BTW all this "fire" is symbolic.

[TGBTG]

Sorry, but you did not even respond to the scripture I quoted (2 Cor 5:20), yet you say I contradict myself.
To reply you though,
My friend, you contradict yourself. Our reconcilication is the grace of God, thru Christ.
Let's look at it again:

2 Cor 5
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Paul TAUGHT:
1. God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself (not counting men's sins against them)
2. Be ye reconciled to God

This shows God did something AND we also NEED to do something in response.
Paul DID NOT just stop at "God has reconciled us"
Our maturity in Christ requires our participation, some will not come to full stature of Christ without the refiners fire.

Our maturity?? How can an UNBELIEVER mature in Christ when he has not even be clothed with Christ's righteousness??

You have to acknowledge that we WERE reconciled to God WHILE we were yet sinner, or else deny the Word of God.
Again, 2 Cor 5:20 answers this plainly. It teaches that God reconciled us to himself while we were his enemies (not counting our sins against us), yes.
But then goes further and says "Be ye reconciled to God.
You seem to ignoring the part that says "Be ye reconciled to God"
Why is it a problem for folks to go thru the refiners fire??? None of us have reach the full stature of Christ. Believers have to go thru it in this life, plus their works must be tried by fire at the judgement seat of Christ. So your declarations are not sound. Scripture says, that ALL must be salted with fire, no one is automatically exempt just because they are reconciled. Maturity is God's objective, not robotics, so that His righteousness is a natural outflowing of who we have become in Christ.
Don't you see how you contradict yourself?? If someone who has not believed in Christ has the same justification as someone who has believed in Christ, then, why should the unbeliever go through a "fire"??

BTW all this "fire" is symbolic.
Whether the fire is symbolic or not, why should an unbeliever go thorugh a "fire" that a believer does NOT have to go through since they have both received justification from God??

[Originalist]

To the UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION proponents:

This is the difference between the sin through Adam and the righteousness through Jesus Christ:

Rom 5
16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Adam's sin resulted in condemnation for all.
Jesus' obedience resulted in justification for all (not counting men's sins against them).

The difference HOWEVER is shown in both Rom 5:17 and 2 Cor 5:20
Rom 5:17 says "those who RECEIVE God's grace"
2 Cor 5:20 says "Be reconciled to God"
So we see that man has to receive the grace of God

In a nutshell, this was/is Paul's gospel: "God has reconciled you to himself. Now, reconcile yourself to God."

Reconciliation takes MORE than one party.
Forgiveness can occur as a result on ONLY ONE party's effort, but it takes both parties involved for reconciliation to occur.

UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION is therefore false based on the following:
1. That sinful man does not have to consciously receive the grace of God (EVEN THOUGH Rom 5:17 and 2 Cor 5:20 says man has to put his faith in Jesus Christ to be justifed)
2. If justification is received without belief in Christ (i.e no effort from man) just like condemnation was received from Adam (without effort from man), then those who do not believe in Christ should not have to go through the "refiner's fire" (as universal reconciliation claims).
That is, since ALL MEN partake of God's justification through Christ without even putting their faith in Jesus, then, ALL men should go straight to heaven.

Therefore UNIVERSALISTS, by claiming that unrepentant sinners will go through the "refiner's fire" PROVE (unfortunately for their doctrine) that an unrepentant sinner is NOT justified in the sight of God.
Therefore, their whole claim that justification is received EXACTLY the same way the condemnation was received falls into shambles.

My UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION proponents, if ALL men receive justification through Christ (without belief) just like condemnation through Adam (without belief), then, why do you teach that unrepentant sinners will still go through the "refiner's fire?"

Now, on the other extreme is LIMITED ATONEMENT. This is based on the belief that because some people will go to the lake of fire, therefore, their sins MUST not have been atoned for by Jesus Christ.
Again, the answer to this teaching is found in Rom 5:17 and 2 Cor 5:20
1. We were reconciled to God while we were his enemies by Christ's death
2. We need to receive the grace of God through faith in Christ.

So both UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION and LIMITED ATONEMENT are wrong.

Good post!!

[Michael The Disciple]

Talking about your lifestyle in general. walking in perfection?

I keep trying to tell you something here. Why should it matter to you if I am living above sin on a consistent basis? Would it change Gods evaluation of you if I am a hypocrite? If I have sin in my life? How would that affect the teachings of Yeshua Christ?

If I do have sin in my life how does that affect you? Shouldn't your focus and faith be WHAT DOES YESHUA SAY ABOUT OVERCOMING SIN?

Once you get that revelation it wont matter to you if someone else has sin in their life. You will throw yourself into striving to make sure that YOU YOURSELF enter the kingdom.

[Praxeas]

Blah Blah Blah

[TGBTG]

Blah Blah Blah

??

[Truthseeker]

I keep trying to tell you something here. Why should it matter to you if I am living above sin on a consistent basis? Would it change Gods evaluation of you if I am a hypocrite? If I have sin in my life? How would that affect the teachings of Yeshua Christ?

If I do have sin in my life how does that affect you? Shouldn't your focus and faith be WHAT DOES YESHUA SAY ABOUT OVERCOMING SIN?

Once you get that revelation it wont matter to you if someone else has sin in their life. You will throw yourself into striving to make sure that YOU YOURSELF enter the kingdom.

I got your point nite sure you are getting mine. I am already in the kingdom.

[Michael The Disciple]

I got your point nite sure you are getting mine. I am already in the kingdom.

A Christian experiences the first fruits of the kingdom experience through the Holy Spirit baptism. Not one Christian has in full experience entered into the Kingdom.

1 Cor. 15:50-53

50Now this I say , brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.51Behold , I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep , but we shall all be changed , 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound , and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed . 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Anyone still having flesh and blood has not entered the full revelation of the Kingdom 0f God.

Now if someone thinks they have should they not be living above sin? What a strange thought that one could be in the Kingdom in full manifestation and still be bound to sin!

[crakjak]

Sorry, but you did not even respond to the scripture I quoted (2 Cor 5:20), yet you say I contradict myself.
To reply you though,

Let's look at it again:

2 Cor 5
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Paul TAUGHT:
1. God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself (not counting men's sins against them)
2. Be ye reconciled to God

This shows God did something AND we also NEED to do something in response.
Paul DID NOT just stop at "God has reconciled us"


Our maturity?? How can an UNBELIEVER mature in Christ when he has not even be clothed with Christ's righteousness??


Again, 2 Cor 5:20 answers this plainly. It teaches that God reconciled us to himself while we were his enemies (not counting our sins against us), yes.
But then goes further and says "Be ye reconciled to God.
You seem to ignoring the part that says "Be ye reconciled to God"

Don't you see how you contradict yourself?? If someone who has not believed in Christ has the same justification as someone who has believed in Christ, then, why should the unbeliever go through a "fire"??


Whether the fire is symbolic or not, why should an unbeliever go thorugh a "fire" that a believer does NOT have to go through since they have both received justification from God??

"Be ye reconciled to God". What do you think this is??? This is the process of one coming to maturity in Christ, this is the fire. And don't forget, I said all will be "...salted with fire..." Both believer and unbeliever, to complete right relationship to God. A believer starts the process here and now, unbeliever's may in the future hear, or in the age to come. Both will come to maturity thru God's dealing with man thru the ages. So, you can drop the argument that I am saying believers don't go thru the fire. God deals with believers thru the problems and issues of this age. "All will be salted with fire."

[Luke]

Where does the bible ever ever ever ever ever even hint that people get a second chance after they die?

[crakjak]

Where does the bible ever ever ever ever ever even hint that people get a second chance after they die?

Where does it say, the God that is love, turns to hate the moment one dies physically?????

[Truthseeker]

"Be ye reconciled to God". What do you think this is??? This is the process of one coming to maturity in Christ, this is the fire. And don't forget, I said all will be "...salted with fire..." Both believer and unbeliever, to complete right relationship to God. A believer starts the process here and now, unbeliever's may in the future hear, or in the age to come. Both will come to maturity thru God's dealing with man thru the ages. So, you can drop the argument that I am saying believers don't go thru the fire. God deals with believers thru the problems and issues of this age. "All will be salted with fire."

To me its like marriage. I have a paper that NC legally recognizes my marriage but that doesn't mean I am married in my heart. some take a few years before they are "be ye married".

[crakjak]

To me its like marriage. I have a paper that NC legally recognizes my marriage but that doesn't mean I am married in my heart. some take a few years before they are "be ye married".

:thumbsup

[TGBTG]

To me its like marriage. I have a paper that NC legally recognizes my marriage but that doesn't mean I am married in my heart. some take a few years before they are "be ye married".

This analogy fails because a marriage cannot occur based on one person. It takes two people to come to an agreement.
So an unbeliever who has not put his faith in Christ is NOT YET EVEN married to Christ.

Now, if you had said a christian maturing in the faith, your analogy could have been more plausible. But to use that analogy for an unbeliever is just way out there.

Basically, your analogy is saying God is FORCEFULLY marrying some people that don't want to marry him...

[Truthseeker]

This analogy fails because a marriage cannot occur based on one person. It takes two people to come to an agreement.
So an unbeliever who has not put his faith in Christ is NOT YET EVEN married to Christ.

Now, if you had said a christian maturing in the faith, your analogy could have been more plausible. But to use that analogy for an unbeliever is just way out there.

Basically, your analogy is saying God is FORCEFULLY marrying some people that don't want to marry him...

While i think there is scriptures that point to universal salvation I believe faith is required. I was just bringing out the legal standing vs. relationship standing.

[TGBTG]

While i think there is scriptures that point to universal salvation I believe faith is required. I was just bringing out the legal standing vs. relationship standing.
Example please?