Predestined for Glorification

[newnature]

We cannot earn salvation, and we can never lose salvation, because salvation is based not upon what we do, or promise to do, but upon what Christ has already done for us! What an astounding truth to ponder and really come to understand; a gift declaration of righteousness to those who could never gain that declaration through performance. Does that mean that once we are saved, we can just go out and do anything we want to do; live anyway we want to live and still be saved? Self-sanctification is sitting at the core in a negative way in the mindset of the person who is posing that question. Paul proves that question to be just the opposite.

Grace is a much greater motivator. It is the love of God that constrains us, not fear that God is going to strike us dead, or allow us to be a part of the second death if we perform what we should not be performing, or do not measure up through our performance. Are people set apart as holy in God’s sight because of their lack of sin, or are people set apart as holy in God’s sight because he has joined them to his son? God has a purpose for those who believe, by placing the believer into his son. God did not predestinate us to believe, he predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his son, because he knew who would believe. We must understand that God has predetermined to glorify us. In fact, God has predestined us to that glorification. To predestinate simply means to decide and decree in advance the destiny of something.

Should we just go out and sin all the more now that we know that God’s grace is given to us as a gift simply when we believe his son died for our sins, and put those sins off the table of God’s justice. The natural man has his mind tuned in only to the channel of his own human perspective; satisfying the lust of his flesh; the lust of his eyes; and the pride of life. If something is not logical to the natural man’s way of thinking, he refuses to believe it, whether God said it or not, he wants to remain in his comfort zone. God is not giving out his righteousness as a reward to those who are sorry for the past, and who promise to do their best in the future. At the point of our belief in what Christ accomplished where our sins are concerned, we are as closely associated with Christ as anyone could be, we are joined to him. What an ingenious salvation plan, to take someone else that is righteous and join us to that person, therefore what is Christ’s is ours! It is a gift, a declaration of rightness with God, and this comes totally apart from that unrighteous person’s production.

[bbyrd009]

Then, I'm curious why I sould try to produce "some 10, some 50, and some 100 fold..."? Just asking; I more or less agree w/you.

[Michael The Disciple]

A misunderstanding of grace, righteousness and predestination. Do we have to DO ANYTHING to be accepted in the end?

16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 17 And the world passeth away , and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 1 John 2:16-17

So yes we must do Gods will and be obedient if we want to gain eternal life and escape eternal destruction.

The error they teach about righteousness and justification are because they apply the scriptures that are concerning our INITIAL SALVATION as tho it covers the whole salvation process.

[Dordrecht]

The error they teach about righteousness and justification are because they apply the scriptures that are concerning our INITIAL SALVATION as tho it covers the whole salvation process.

You mean to say what Christ
did on the cross was not enough
for total salvation?

[Michael The Disciple]

You mean to say what Christ
did on the cross was not enough
for total salvation?

Are you saying one need not do the will of God to have eternal life? The cross is sufficient (the blood) for our forgiveness. But it will not excuse sin unpented of.

[Michael The Disciple]

The blood has a certain purpose in the process. But there is more.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 1 John 5:8

The water and spirit are essential to salvation.

[bbyrd009]

The blood has a certain purpose in the process. But there is more.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 1 John 5:8

The water and spirit are essential to salvation.I've had that apparent conundrum presented to me as "Christ for salvation, and works for rewards;" what do you guys think there? The gist is that one may accept Christ, and gain salvation, which can nver be lost; but one may also (figuratively) walk around in eternity 'naked,' so to speak..

[Praxeas]

We cannot earn salvation, and we can never lose salvation, because salvation is based not upon what we do, or promise to do, but upon what Christ has already done for us! What an astounding truth to ponder and really come to understand; a gift declaration of righteousness to those who could never gain that declaration through performance. Does that mean that once we are saved, we can just go out and do anything we want to do; live anyway we want to live and still be saved? Self-sanctification is sitting at the core in a negative way in the mindset of the person who is posing that question. Paul proves that question to be just the opposite.

Grace is a much greater motivator. It is the love of God that constrains us, not fear that God is going to strike us dead, or allow us to be a part of the second death if we perform what we should not be performing, or do not measure up through our performance. Are people set apart as holy in God’s sight because of their lack of sin, or are people set apart as holy in God’s sight because he has joined them to his son? God has a purpose for those who believe, by placing the believer into his son. God did not predestinate us to believe, he predestinated us to be conformed to the image of his son, because he knew who would believe. We must understand that God has predetermined to glorify us. In fact, God has predestined us to that glorification. To predestinate simply means to decide and decree in advance the destiny of something.

Should we just go out and sin all the more now that we know that God’s grace is given to us as a gift simply when we believe his son died for our sins, and put those sins off the table of God’s justice. The natural man has his mind tuned in only to the channel of his own human perspective; satisfying the lust of his flesh; the lust of his eyes; and the pride of life. If something is not logical to the natural man’s way of thinking, he refuses to believe it, whether God said it or not, he wants to remain in his comfort zone. God is not giving out his righteousness as a reward to those who are sorry for the past, and who promise to do their best in the future. At the point of our belief in what Christ accomplished where our sins are concerned, we are as closely associated with Christ as anyone could be, we are joined to him. What an ingenious salvation plan, to take someone else that is righteous and join us to that person, therefore what is Christ’s is ours! It is a gift, a declaration of rightness with God, and this comes totally apart from that unrighteous person’s production.
Not a single scripture

[Praxeas]

You mean to say what Christ
did on the cross was not enough
for total salvation?
Its interesting how you people make these unfounded comments

In other words you can't deal with what he said so you create a false argument.

Classic example of a strawman argument

[Michael The Disciple]

While the blood of Yeshua Christ is sufficient to accomplish what it was meant for (to forgive sin) the Spirit of God is sufficient to do what IT was meant to do.

To overcome sin!

12 Therefore , brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die : but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live . Rom. 8:12-13

The blood and the spirit work together in salvation, not separately.

[bbyrd009]

The blood has a certain purpose in the process. But there is more.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 1 John 5:8

The water and spirit are essential to salvation.What does 'water' signify here, MTD?

[bbyrd009]

Water--or more often, 'the sea'-- is often a metaphor for 'people;' and I wondered if the ref here was using it that way? Ty

[Esaias]

Three that bear witness - the Spirit, the 'people', and the blood.

For some reason I just don't think that's what John meant...

:smack

[bbyrd009]

Three that bear witness - the Spirit, the 'people', and the blood.

For some reason I just don't think that's what John meant...

:smacklol well, that's what I meant to say; but there is often a 'people' reflection when you see either of those terms, anyway, is why I asked...so, water here sig's 'baptism,' yes?

[Esaias]

lol well, that's what I meant to say; but there is often a 'people' reflection when you see either of those terms, anyway, is why I asked...so, water here sig's 'baptism,' yes?

I believe 'water' siginifies water baptism, 'spirit' siginifies Spirit baptism, and the 'blood' signifies the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as the atonement. These three agree in one in the sense they signify the same thing - our redemption. They point to it, mark it out, apply it, represent it. They are the sign of redemption, if you will. As in another place it says 'Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.' And again 'And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.'

That's my take on it, anyway.

:thumbsup

[Michael The Disciple]

I believe 'water' siginifies water baptism, 'spirit' siginifies Spirit baptism, and the 'blood' signifies the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as the atonement. These three agree in one in the sense they signify the same thing - our redemption. They point to it, mark it out, apply it, represent it. They are the sign of redemption, if you will. As in another place it says 'Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.' And again 'And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.'

That's my take on it, anyway.

:thumbsup

Makes perfect sense.

[Praxeas]

lol well, that's what I meant to say; but there is often a 'people' reflection when you see either of those terms, anyway, is why I asked...so, water here sig's 'baptism,' yes?
Water or Sea? Big difference and "water" is singular

[larrylyates]

The blood has a certain purpose in the process. But there is more.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 1 John 5:8

The water and spirit are essential to salvation.

John 3:3,5
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Only the Acts 2:38 fulfills the requirements of the birth of water and spirit required for entrance into the Kingdom.

In the typology of the Tabernacle we see the foreshadowing of the blood at the altar, the water at the laver, and the manifest presence or Spirit of God, behind the veil.

This pattern is echoed in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and our identification through repentance/death/blood, water baptism/burial and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. All three are typified in the Old Testament, fulfilled in Christ and obeyed as we follow the commands of Peter.

These three "bear witness' and these "three agree in One."

[larrylyates]

Not a single scripture

Isn't that most often the case on AFF with those who would challenge the truth of God's Word. Much like the Athenians of Paul's day:

Acts 17:21
21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)

When what you assert has no basis in Scripture, all that is left to you is philosophies and speculation.

Colossians 2:8-10
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

[Aquila]

God has abundant grace and mercy. However, disobedience will not be tolerated indefinitely. God requires obedience. While some recognize this, others don't and so they refuse to be obedient and they suffer great hardship in life and... some even lose their souls. So obedience IS necessary.

However, here is where it get's sticky...

Everyone who believes in obedience has their own or their denominations silly little list of rules to obey. Some stick to the Ten Commandments (TCs). Some take the TCs and and add a few laws from the Law of Moses (LoM). Some take any combination of these and add their denomination's traditions with them. And yet others will add even their pastor's convictions.

Here's the shocker... they too have fallen from grace. Seeking to be justified by the law, or any other law, they fall from the grace of Christ Jesus.

So what does God desire us to obey? Love. The law of love. God desires two things and two things only...

Matthew 22:36-40
King James Version (KJV)
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

God desires that we:

1.) Love Him with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength.
2.) That we demonstrate that love for Him by loving others as ourselves.

That's all. Done. Finished. Paul explained it like this...


Romans 13:9-10
King James Version (KJV)
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

"Love is the fulfilling of the law"... "even if there be ANY other commandment".

When we are judged as believers... all that will matter when we stand before Christ to be judged is if we learned to love; to really, really love. To love with abandon. To love without condition. To love at the sacrifice of self. To love with a love that transforms the lives of those around us. Or... did we get so caught up in our "marvelous works"??? Did we get all caught up in our interpretation of the law??? Did we claim to walk in grace and then use it merely as an opportunity to please the flesh and selfishly fail to love those around us???

So many will be shocked on the day of judgment. It will not be like any of us envision it being. Your life will be played before you and every thought, word, and deed will be reviewed and judged as to if it were "religious"... "selfish"... or "loving".

Friends... it's all about love.

[Aquila]

And it should be noted... with regards to the subject of predestination, every though, word, and deed of every human (and it's repercussions) being has been prerecorded in Heaven in accordance to God's foreknowledge. All that is written in the book of records will come to pass.

[crakjak]

Are you saying one need not do the will of God to have eternal life? The cross is sufficient (the blood) for our forgiveness. But it will not excuse sin unpented of.

We can only do the will of God, because we have eternal life. If the church would preach the true Good News, then folks would believe and walk it out.

But because they have been taught that they have to "do the will of God" to GET eternal life, they don't believe they can ever do enough, therefore they are in a vicious cycle of performance AND FAILURE, WHICH PRODUCES CONDEMNATION. Never able to attain what the church SAYS is a free gift.

YOU CANNOT DO THE WILL OF GOD, UNTIL YOU FULLY ACCEPT THAT YOU ARE THE RIGHTEOUS OF GOD. AND THAT MY FRIEND IS ONLY POSSIBLE BY EXCEPTING THE FINISH WORK OF CHRIST, AS ENOUGH, PERIOD!!

ALL OTHER EFFORTS ARE WILLPOWER AND FIFTHLY RAGS.

[crakjak]

Not a single scripture

So what, doesn't mean it is not truth.

[navygoat1998]

So what, doesn't mean it is not truth.

We condemn people to hell with man made rules with no scriptural support.

[crakjak]

While the blood of Yeshua Christ is sufficient to accomplish what it was meant for (to forgive sin) the Spirit of God is sufficient to do what IT was meant to do.

To overcome sin!

12 Therefore , brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die : but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live . Rom. 8:12-13

The blood and the spirit work together in salvation, not separately.

You haven't overcome sin, nor will you completely in this life. IF SO, there would be nothing to endure and overcome. ONLY POSSIBLE WAY TO OVERCOME IS FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT OF FAITH, IN THE FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST.
We certainly will mature and become more and more Christlike, as a natural outflowing of our faith, that HE has made us righteous. But focus on not sinning and straining thru willpower to be good, and sin will be enpowered to condemn you.

[crakjak]

We condemn people to hell with man made rules with no scriptural support.

Or our own interpetation of scripture!! The Jewish religious leaders used the scriptures all the time, and it is they that Jesus rebuked, almost exclusively!!

[bbyrd009]

Water or Sea? Big difference and "water" is singularWell, good point; I guess 'waters' might be more closely associated with the 'sea' euphemism. I agree w/Esaias.

[bbyrd009]

...But because they have been taught that they have to "do the will of God" to GET eternal life, they don't believe they can ever do enough, therefore they are in a vicious cycle of performance AND FAILURE, WHICH PRODUCES CONDEMNATION. Never able to attain what the church SAYS is a free gift.
The result of the doctrine of Original Sin.
We condemn people to hell with man made rules with no scriptural support.:lol yup. More OS.

[Esaias]

We can only do the will of God, because we have eternal life.

If this is true, then regeneration comes BEFORE repentance and belief, and they are the product of regeneration.

If that is true, then those who do not repent and believe, are not regenerated.

Many die without repentance and belief in the gospel.

Therefore, many die without being regenerated.

To not be regenerated is to perish and NOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD, for 'UNLESS' one is regenerated, one CANNOT enter the kingdom of God.

Therefore, those who die without regeneration are LOST and CANNOT ENTER GOD'S KINGDOM.

Thus, universalism is overthrown by it's own proponents LOL.