Holiness vs. Legalism

[larrylyates]

Holiness is beautiful, legalism is binding; holiness brings life, legalism brings death. They are as different as night and day, and yet at first glance they can seem similar, because they both stand against sinful behavior and call for holy living. How can we distinguish between the two?
Legalism is rules without relationship, emphasizing standards more than the Savior, and laws more than love. It is a system based on fear and characterized by joyless judgmentalism, producing futility instead of freedom.

To an unsaved person, the legalist preaches justification by works, saying, “You’re a wicked sinner and you need to get rid of all your filthy habits if you want the Lord to accept you.” There is no grace in this message; no exalting of the life-changing, sin-cleansing power of the blood of Jesus; no clear proclamation of mercy.

The declaration of God’s love expressed through the cross is muffled, if it is even heard at all. Consequently, the proof of the new birth is seen almost entirely in what someone no longer does, and this continues to be the pattern for believers within the church: They are judged almost entirely by a few external standards (which, in many cases, are not even expressly mentioned in the Word) and they are monitored by conformity to the particular group’s code of conduct. The result is external conformity rather than inward transformation—and that means either self-righteousness of self-condemnation (or both!).

Of course, it is absolutely true that God has very high standards, and for anyone honestly reading the Word, there can be no doubt that He calls us to live by very high standards—in our thoughts, words and deeds; in our attitudes; in our sexuality; in our families; in our relationships; and much, much more. (See Eph. 5:1-6.)

Tragically, legalists—despite their best intentions—get things terribly wrong. First, they try to change a person from the outside in, whereas God deals with us from the inside out. Second, they fail to present a balanced picture of the Lord, putting too little stress on His mercy and too much emphasis on His wrath. Third, they do not point the struggling sinner (or believer) to the Lord’s supernatural empowerment, making holiness a matter of human effort alone. Finally, they add laws, standards, commandments, customs and traditions that are not found in the Word, making those things even more important than the biblical commandments themselves.

In contrast, true, scriptural holiness begins with the heart and flows from an encounter with God and His Word. It calls for repentance in response to the Lord’s gracious offer of salvation and it offers a way to be holy—the blood of Jesus and the Spirit of God. Biblical holiness is free, although it requires discipline and perseverance. For the legalist, nothing is free. Everything must be earned! That’s why legalism leads to bondage and holiness leads to liberty.

As Ralph Cudworth explained many years ago, “I do not mean by holiness the mere performance of outward duties of religion, coldly acted over, as a task; not our habitual prayings, hearings, fastings, multiplied one upon another (though these be all good, as subservient to a higher end); but I mean an inward soul and principle of divine life (Rom. 8:1-5), that spiriteth all these.”

It is that inward spiritual principle that must be cultivated—the principle of intimacy with Jesus, the principle of being renewed in our minds by His Word and Spirit, the principle of being conformed to His image and character, hating what He hates and loving what He loves.
As Dr. Kent Hughes expressed in his book Disciplines of a Godly Man, “There is a universe of difference between the motivations behind legalism and discipline. Legalism says, ‘I will do this thing to gain merit with God,’ while discipline says, ‘I will do this because I love God and want to please him.’ Legalism is man-centered; discipline is God-centered.”

Unfortunately, the moment you preach biblical holiness, many Christians put their hands over their ears and say, “That’s legalism! That’s condemnation! That’s man-made religion! That’s the dead letter of the law! You won’t put me in bondage! I won’t listen to stuff like that!” As Robert Brimstead observed, “The idea of living strictly by what the Bible says has been branded as legalism.”

And so, these Christians run from the dangerous clutches of legalism and fall into the deadly grasp of license—that self-deceived state of fleshly liberty, catering to their carnality rather than crucifying it. What a terrible error!

Whatever comes naturally to these “liberated” believers is accepted as normal (and “understood,” of course, by the Lord), while biblical commandments are brought down to the level of their own experience, and anything that brings any kind of spiritual pressure to bear on them is rejected as not being the easy yoke and light burden of Jesus. And when the Holy Spirit brings conviction on people like this, they rebuke the devil for trying to condemn them.

To quote Oswald Chambers, “Liberty means ability not to violate the law; license means personal insistence on doing what I like. … To be free from the law means that I am the living law of God, there is no independence of God in my make-up. License is rebellion against all law. If my heart does not become the center of divine love, it may become the center of diabolical license.”

What then is the antidote? Flee from legalism, stay far away from license, and run to holiness. Reject humanly birthed, external religion. Give no place to false teaching that excuses carnality, and instead, embrace new covenant, heart transformation—and in the power of the Spirit, supernaturally enabled by God’s grace, deal ruthlessly with sin in your life. That is the path to freedom!

(Adapted from Go and Sin No More: A Call to Holiness.)

[Pressing-On]

I believe touting "Apostolic Identity" is pushing toward being viewed as a cult. IMO, it's a weird term for an organization to embrace. Not trying to be negative, as I believe in Acts 2:38, but this other is just very strange.

[odooley6985]

I have two problems with holiness standards. One the two words together arent biblical. Two go to a dozen churches you will see a dozen set of standards. I had one pastor tell me its because GOD calls each church to a different set of standards. In reality it has nothing to do with GOD but each pastor has his own. Apostolic identity is not about outward looks

[Danville]

I was blessed by the post! We Apostolics are famous for being self righteous! God help us!

[larrylyates]

I was blessed by the post! We Apostolics are famous for being self righteous! God help us!

It blessed me as well. It is so easy to fall into the trap of seifrighteousness. I do it all the time. Ouch!

[RandyWayne]

I was blessed by the post! We Apostolics are famous for being self righteous! God help us!

I am a million times as righteous as thou art!

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4585703250004176&pid=1.7

[Luke]

The problem arises when one forgets that there is a difference between holiness and righteousness.

[Livelystone]

Legalism is abuse of the law while on the other hand holiness is the fulfilling of the law.

Abuse of the law is often centered around certain pet laws the abuser does not break and therefore overemphasizes them while overlooking the laws they do break. These days many are bonding together in the fight against homosexuality in the church and I have no problem with condemning homosexuality in the church anymore than I have a problem with condemning liars and thieves in the church. The problem starts when the homosexual gets singled out resulting in the law becoming unbalanced and unjust.

Another devastating abuse of the law is throwing it out by persons not understanding why Jesus said those who learned the truth of the law and become able to teach it to others while fulfilling that themselves would be called great in the kingdom. On the other hand those who through ignorance or intent encourage violation of the laws of God will be called the least in the kingdom.

Therefore is quite obvious that the law has its place to guide and to shape Christians in the image of Jesus Christ, and not to be used as a whip to intimidate them and enforce the traditions and doctrines of man.

Blessings

Doug

[LifeUncommon]

Legalism is abuse of the law while on the other hand holiness is the fulfilling of the law.

Blessings

Doug

???? What the WHAT ?!?!
CHRIST fulfilled the law. Our holiness is as filthy rags. And the man made dress codes some churches like to call "holiness" are anything but.

[Livelystone]

???? What the WHAT ?!?!
CHRIST fulfilled the law. Our holiness is as filthy rags. And the man made dress codes some churches like to call "holiness" are anything but.

If Christ is formed in you, you will fulfill the law today the same as He did 2000 years ago because it is Him in you doing it and not you doing what no man can do by fulfilling the law.

Jesus is the one who writes His Laws on your heart and whatever your heart wants is what your body does.

That you can take to the bank........ whether you realize it or not makes no difference !!!

Doug

[larrylyates]

The problem arises when one forgets that there is a difference between holiness and righteousness.

This is such an important distinction! I wish you would expand on it, here or in another Thread. The readers will benefit from that discussion.

[MarieA27]

The problem arises when one forgets that there is a difference between holiness and righteousness.

I think this is partially true. If you're holy you will be righteous, but if you're righteous, you're not necessarily holy.

[LifeUncommon]

If Christ is formed in you, you will fulfill the law today the same as He did 2000 years ago because it is Him in you doing it and not you doing what no man can do by fulfilling the law.

Jesus is the one who writes His Laws on your heart and whatever your heart wants is what your body does.

That you can take to the bank........ whether you realize it or not makes no difference !!!

Doug

Wow. Speechless. Lol...carry on!

[bbyrd009]

That was well put.

[Livelystone]

That was well put.

Since both the you are at about the same level let me see if I can make it simple enough for you to understand.

All Christians today are somewhere from having left Egypt and crossed the Red Sea, and are now in the wilderness struggling to find their way to the promised land that for us is heaven on earth.

Seven weeks into their journey they arrived at Mount Sinai where the law was given at the time of Pentecost. Therefore, it is the job of the Holy Spirit given to us at pentecost to fulfill the promise of God to write his laws upon our heart. (Let me know if you need Scripture for this or anything else)

When those laws are understood as mature Christians able to eat meat because those who are immature when they read the law can only drink milk. (Because when the law was read at the time of Pentecost through a "literal only understanding of the law," they thought the law forbid the eating of meat and drinking milk at the same time). However, those who have a mature understanding of the law know that the purpose of the law is to bring us to Christ, because when understood spiritually the laws are directional signs for how we are to get through the wilderness and into the promised land at the time of Tabernacles when the Israelites were supposed to enter in. Unfortunately they could not because of the sin of unbelief in the truth and they could only enter in by crossing the Jordan (death). Therefore, they failed because of their literal understanding of the law we are told there still remains a rest for the people of God

On the other hand those who know the truth of the law know they can eat meat and drink milk at the same time because the law is not to be taken literally.

The sin of unbelief was they did not think they could conquer the promised land because they were lacking faith. For us our faith is what we believe but without understanding the law spiritually you will never learn the truth that is necessary to know BEFORE CHRIST CAN EVER BE FORMED IN YOU!

Without understanding the law spiritually you will never move beyond the mere basics (milk) and will continue to remain in bondage to whatever traditions and doctrines of men your church teaches. Because the law of the seed is simple to understand I continually point out that without understanding the law of the seed you will never learn how the seed that is Christ in you can mature into the tree of life that is Jesus Christ a.k.a. Christ formed in you.

Understanding the spiritual aspects of the laws allows them to become your tutors and governors. Because, when the Bible says that Christ is the end of the law, it is not saying that the law has come to its end, but instead the word translated as “end” means the fulfillment of it. Consequently the verse is saying that Christ is the fulfillment of the law which is exactly I'm trying to say to you and your friend. Unfortunately neither of the two of you have yet to be able to figure it out.

When Christ fulfilled the law he did not fulfill it by a literal interpretation given evidence by His sabbath day works. That was why the Pharisees found so much fault with him because in their limited mindset Jesus was breaking the law because their understanding was not, "mixed with faith". However, when considered spiritually wise Jesus fulfilled the law so well that every "T" was crossed and every "I"was dotted.

And to this day the church has no idea what that means but when the law is understood and taught as Jesus said it is to be in Matthew chapter 5, by those who Jesus said will called great in His kingdom, is when you'll start to see the church doing the same miracles that the 1st century church did.

Therefore I continue to say when the truth returned to the church so will signs and wonders returned to the church......... including the one you go to !!!

Doug

[Luke]

Since both the you are at about the same level let me see if I can make it simple enough for you to understand.

All Christians today are somewhere from having left Egypt and crossed the Red Sea, and are now in the wilderness struggling to find their way to the promised land that for us is heaven on earth.

Seven weeks into their journey they arrived at Mount Sinai where the law was given at the time of Pentecost. Therefore, it is the job of the Holy Spirit given to us at pentecost to fulfill the promise of God to write his laws upon our heart. (Let me Knott if you need Scripture for this or anything else)

When those laws are understood as mature Christians able to eat meat because those who are immature when they read the law can only drink milk. (Because when the law was read at the time of Pentecost through a "literal only understanding of the law," they thought the law forbid the eating of meat and drinking milk at the same time). However, those who have a mature understanding of the law know that the purpose of the law is to bring us to Christ, because when understood spiritually the laws are directional signs for how we are to get through the wilderness and into the promised land at the time of Tabernacles when the Israelites were supposed to enter in. Unfortunately they could not because of the sin of unbelief in the truth and they could only enter in by crossing the Jordan (death). Therefore, they failed because of their literal understanding of the law we are told there still remains a rest for the people of God

On the other hand those who know the truth of the law know they can eat meat and drink milk at the same time because the law is not to be taken literally.

The sin of unbelief was they did not think they could conquer the promised land because they were lacking faith. For us our faith is what we believe but without understanding the law spiritually you will never learn the truth that is necessary to know BEFORE CHRIST CAN EVER BE FORMED IN YOU!

Without understanding the law spiritually you will never move beyond the mere basics (milk) and will continue to remain in bondage to whatever traditions and doctrines of men your church teaches. Because the law of the seed is simple to understand I continually point out that without understanding the law of the seed you will never learn how the seed that is Christ in you can mature into the tree of life that is Jesus Christ a.k.a. Christ formed in you.

Understanding the spiritual aspects of the laws allows them to become your tutors and governors. Because, when the Bible says that Christ is the end of the law, it is not saying that the law has come to its end, but instead the word translated as “end” means the fulfillment of it. Consequently the verse is saying that Christ is the fulfillment of the law which is exactly I'm trying to say to you and your friend. Unfortunately neither of the two of you have yet to be able to figure it out.

When Christ fulfilled the law he did not fulfill it by a literal interpretation given evidence by His sabbath day works. That was why the Pharisees found so much fault with him because in their limited mindset Jesus was breaking the law because their understanding was not, "mixed with faith". However, when considered spiritually wise Jesus fulfilled the law so well that every "T" was crossed and every "I"was dotted.

And to this day the church has no idea what that means but when the law is understood and taught as Jesus said it is to be in Matthew chapter 5, by those who Jesus said will called great in His kingdom, is when you'll start to see the church doing the same miracles that the 1st century church did.

Therefore I continue to say when the truth returned to the church so will signs and wonders returned to the church......... including the one you go to !!!

Doug

Just so I can see where you are coming from I am assuming that you do not take it literal but rather adopt more of of an allegorical approach. Am I correct in this?

[Livelystone]

Just so I can see where you are coming from I am assuming that you do not take it literal but rather adopt more of of an allegorical approach. Am I correct in this?

Not 100% allegorical but allegories do play a very important part in both the law and prophecy for us. However, that does not throw out all the do's and don'ts of a literal interpretation of the law for example lying and stealing, etc., are still sins. What I am saying is because God is not the author of confusion the same laws that apply in the literal world also apply in the spiritual world. Therefore, what is seen in the inside (spiritual) is witnessed on the outside by the actions of the body (literal)

As soon as someone decides they are going to overcome sin and fulfill the law they have already guaranteed themselves failure because only Christ can fulfill the law. Therefore rather than us try to be more attentive in our defenses to overcome temptation we need to find more of the truth of Christ so that the seed that is Christ in us can mature and grow both larger and stronger. The eventual hopeful outcome is it will crowd out the seed of our "old man" with its = knowledge of good and evil that is in all of mankind. Because Christ did not sin and cannot sin the way to overcoming sin is to have Christ in our hearts 24/7.

However, for that to happen we first have to know the absolute truth of the foundational doctrines listed in Hebrews 6:1–2 that cannot be known without first knowing how to apply the laws spiritually. For that matter we cannot even determine true doctrinal knowledge without first knowing how to use the laws for determining the truth.

The best way to understand what I preach, teach, and live by is to read the book that I wrote. If I could afford to I would send everyone a free copy that wanted one. Unfortunately, and because I am broke the next best thing is a free preview of the 1st 3 1/2 chapters that can be had at the following link. This company adds a premium to the full retail price for their free shipping policy, however, in my opinion they have the most comprehensive free preview and is easier to read than the one Amazon has. I am not trying to sell you a book but there is no other place where what I say is being taught by anyone else. In all reality the book has caused me a lot of trouble but I wrote it by commandment and not by choice.

How to use the laws spiritually starts with the 2nd chapter that you can read by just clicking on the Google “free preview button”.

http://www.bookdepository.com/Modern-Day-Prophet-Douglas-Duncan/9781457502941

Other sites have the book cheaper and e-books are the cheapest of all

Blessings

Doug

[LifeUncommon]

"No other place where what I say is being taught by anyone else"? You mean outside of the Bible, right?

[Livelystone]

"No other place where what I say is being taught by anyone else"? You mean outside of the Bible, right?

Correct......... but even then it is as Paul said they speak in a mystery and Solomon spoke of how God has hidden the truths but "kings" seek them out

[Esaias]

So God's truth is not being taught anywhere except by you, Doug, in your book?

Do I understand you correctly?

[larrylyates]

Correct......... but even then it is as Paul said they speak in a mystery and Solomon spoke of how God has hidden the truths but "kings" seek them out

Mark 4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Romans 16:24-26
24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Ephesians 1:9
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Ephesians 3:4
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Colossians 1:26
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

John 15:15
Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

1 John 2:20-21
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

The NT use of the word mystery (G3466 μυστήριον musterion) is that of a secret once hidden but now revealed unto us by the Holy Spirit. Paul did not say we "speak in a mystery," he said "we speak the wisdom of God." We cannot speak what we do not understand. That is why the Holy Spirit was given, to guide us into all truth. We "need not that any man teach" us, the anointing of the Holy Spirit teaches us of ALL things.

There is nothing hidden from the child of God. All things are revealed to us by His Spirit through the Scriptures.

[bbyrd009]

...There is nothing hidden from the child of God. All things are revealed to us by His Spirit through the Scriptures.Hey, something we can (categorically, at least) agree on! (there are still some things hidden from us tho, according to Scripture)

[larrylyates]

Hey, something we can (categorically, at least) agree on! (there are still some things hidden from us tho, according to Scripture)

We're not ALWAYS in disagreement. You say a lot of things that I agree with. For you, perhaps not so much in my case.

[Livelystone]

So God's truth is not being taught anywhere except by you, Doug, in your book?

Do I understand you correctly?

Did I say that :foottap

[Livelystone]

Mark 4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Romans 16:24-26
24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Ephesians 1:9
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Ephesians 3:4
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Ephesians 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Colossians 1:26
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

John 15:15
Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

1 John 2:20-21
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

The NT use of the word mystery (G3466 μυστήριον musterion) is that of a secret once hidden but now revealed unto us by the Holy Spirit. Paul did not say we "speak in a mystery," he said "we speak the wisdom of God." We cannot speak what we do not understand. That is why the Holy Spirit was given, to guide us into all truth. We "need not that any man teach" us, the anointing of the Holy Spirit teaches us of ALL things.

There is nothing hidden from the child of God. All things are revealed to us by His Spirit through the Scriptures.

If there is nothing hidden why are there are 30,000 different denominations of Christianity all teaching different doctrines?

[larrylyates]

If there is nothing hidden why are there are 30,000 different denominations of Christianity all teaching different doctrines?

Are you denying the Authority and Inspiration of the Scriptures? I ask because all of the Scriptures I listed prove that there is nothing hidden from the child of God and that we were given the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth and have no need that any man teach us.

Your question is an evasion not answer. Are you denying the Inspiration and Authority of Scripture?

[Livelystone]

Are you denying the Authority and Inspiration of the Scriptures? I ask because all of the Scriptures I listed prove that there is nothing hidden from the child of God and that we were given the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth and have no need that any man teach us.

Your question is an evasion not answer. Are you denying the Inspiration and Authority of Scripture?

Larry,

For the 2nd time since I have been here I rebuke you in Jesus name! To the best of my memory I have only said this to one other person one other time in my life.

One of the things I have made very clear in the beginning of my book is that the Bible is the only place that is to be used as an authority for the word of God.

Doug

[Livelystone]

If there is nothing hidden why are there are 30,000 different denominations of Christianity all teaching different doctrines?

Does the cat have your tongue?

Please answer my question and quit being evasive!

Do you have mysteries figured out, do you think you have the keys to the kingdom?

Can you prove your faith with works? In other words and said very simply have through your prayers alone the sick been healed or have the the dead been raised?

Because if you have it right, there is no reason for God not to witness your ministry with signs and wonders that can only be done by God.

However, if you do not have a right there is every reason for God not to bless your ministry

Just saying ....

[larrylyates]

[QUOTE=Livelystone;1250814]Larry,

For the 2nd time since I have been here I rebuke you in Jesus name! To the best of my memory I have only said this to one other person one other time in my life.

Actually, Doug you have rebuked two of us on here.

One of the things I have made very clear in the beginning of my book is that the Bible is the only place that is to be used as an authority for the word of God.

None of us have your book, although I have read the preview. All we have are your statements on these threads, which are sometimes, not as clear as you perhaps intend.

To rebuke someone in the Name of the Lord is a very serious matter. May I ask, what it is in the above posts that has earned me such a stern reprimand?

I simply quoted the Bible to you after which you responded in a way that seemed to have shown that you did not like or agree with the implications of those Scriptures. I merely asked you if you did or did not accept the Authority and Inspiration of Scripture. a fairly common question.

It was really not said to you in an attacking way. I simply was curious, because several times you have seemed to indicate that there are things in your book that are not being taught anywhere else. You imply that you came back from the dead with a mission from God. I think that is wonderful and do not question it's reality to you. But you also seem to imply that you have a special revelation that no one else apparently has. You have been questioned on this a number of times by different people, in different Threads. Each time your answer is a bit defensive if not outright hostile in my case.

I guess what troubles me is that no one can quite seem to figure out exactly what you are trying to say. When asked if you were indeed teaching what can only be found in your book, you were very evasive. That concerned me because a teacher of God has a responsibility given to him by God for which he is held accountable. That is why Paul cautioned us that we should be very careful before embarking on that path. We will be held to a higher standard.

So, seeing as how all I did was provide you with Scriptural proof that there are no revelations or mysteries that are hidden from the Spirit-filled Child of God, why to you find it necessary to rebuke me. As I said, I never once in this thread have attacked you personally.

As for your question concerning the existence of so many different denominations, that should be obvious to any student of the Word of God. The Holy Spirit was given to guide us into all truth. If a group for some reason, denies or rejects the operation of the Spirit, they will fall into error. If another group for some reason decides that they don't agree with certain teachings of Scripture and chooses to ignore them or explain them away, they will fall into error. If another, or in this case many such groups decide to follow the teachings of a particular man;Calvinists, Lutherans. Russelites, Campbellites, followers of Joseph Smith, etc. They too will be led into error. That's not so difficult to understand.

You seemed to imply that you possess an understanding that no one else has, but that can be obtained by reading your book. Is that what you meant to imply? Perhaps you simply were not clear in what you said, but that is the impression you have given to a number of us and that is why we have asked the questions we have asked you. Seeking clarification and understanding. I notice you don't respond well to that. That puzzled me and when you said what you did about mysteries, which used the word in a way the Bible does not, I responded by offering you the Scriptures which would help others understand what the Word of God actually says about such matters.

I apologize if you found my words offensive, they all were simply lifted from the pages of Scripture? Is there a particular Scripture that I somehow misquoted that caused the rebuke? Was it my desire to know your position o the Inspiration and authority of Scripture? you see I am confused by your response. It troubles me.

[Esaias]

Did I say that :foottap

Here is what you said:

Because Christ did not sin and cannot sin the way to overcoming sin is to have Christ in our hearts 24/7.

However, for that to happen we first have to know the absolute truth of the foundational doctrines listed in Hebrews 6:1–2 that cannot be known without first knowing how to apply the laws spiritually. For that matter we cannot even determine true doctrinal knowledge without first knowing how to use the laws for determining the truth.

You made several assertions:

1. The way to overcoming sin is to have Christ in our hearts 24/7. Obviously, if someone doesn't have Christ in their heart they are not saved.

2. However, for that to happen we first have to know the absolute truth of the foundational doctrines listed in Hebrews 6:1–2...
You assert that knowing the 'absolute truth of the doctrines listed in Hebrews 6:1-2' is a requirement for having Christ in their hearts 24/7.

3. ...listed in Hebrews 6:1–2 that cannot be known without first knowing how to apply the laws spiritually.
You then assert that #2 cannot be accomplished without first knowing 'how to apply the laws spiritually'.
So then, one must first know how to apply the laws spiritually, then 2nd know the absolute truth of Hebrews 6:1-2, which will lead to christ being in the heart 24/7.

4. For that matter we cannot even determine true doctrinal knowledge without first knowing how to use the laws for determining the truth.
Here you claim that we can do any of that without 'first knowing how to use the laws for determining truth'.

So then you claim we must 1st know how to use the 'laws for determining truth', then 2nd know how to apply the laws spiritually, then know the absolute truth of Hebrews 6:1-2, then we will have Christ in our hearts 24/7.

With me so far?

But you also said this:

I am not trying to sell you a book but there is no other place where what I say is being taught by anyone else.

Thus, if you are teaching the Truth about how to use the laws for determining truth, how to apply the laws spiritually, and the knowledge of the absolute truth of Hebrews 6:1-2, AND nobody else is teaching those things, then nobody is teaching God's Truth except you.

I am going to skip over your brief infomercial for your book and just leave it at this.

[Luke]

The major fundamental deifference of leagalism and holiness is very simply the motivation.

Legalism says "if i work hard enough this will save me."

Holiness says "I want to be like my Father."

Another difference is seen in how legalism and holiness come about.

Leagism is man saying "I can do this on my own."

Holiness is man coming to God to be so that God can change man.

One last distinction that i will point out (though there are numerous more)

Legalism mows the grass and then considers itself pious.

Holiness pulls sin out by the roots and then sprinkles preen weed and feed so it wont come back.

Both holiness and legalism deal with the outside but legalism uses suppression while Holiness deals death to the roots so the outside stays clean.

[MarieA27]

Are you denying the Authority and Inspiration of the Scriptures? I ask because all of the Scriptures I listed prove that there is nothing hidden from the child of God and that we were given the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth and have no need that any man teach us.


The part in bold is not true. God always had a man teach us. He always taught the man( His preacher), but the man was to teach us what God had taught him. All throughout the bible there's examples of that. Just because we have the Holy Ghost, doesn't mean we don't need to get taught anymore. If so, then all those letters to the church wouldn't have been needed, the apostles would have just told them to let God teach them, since they have the Holy Ghost.

And the reason that all of these churches are gone astray, even when they have the Holy Ghost, is because, instead of them truly listening and letting the Holy Ghost guide them to all truth, they let flesh get in the way, and go after their own lust, and let the spirit of the devil guide them to the way they were leaning, instead of letting everything go for God, so He would guide them to where He wanted them, to the truth.

[larrylyates]

The part in bold is not true. God always had a man teach us. He always taught the man( His preacher), but the man was to teach us what God had taught him. All throughout the bible there's examples of that. Just because we have the Holy Ghost, doesn't mean we don't need to get taught anymore. If so, then all those letters to the church wouldn't have been needed, the apostles would have just told them to let God teach them, since they have the Holy Ghost.

And the reason that all of these churches are gone astray, even when they have the Holy Ghost, is because, instead of them truly listening and letting the Holy Ghost guide them to all truth, they let flesh get in the way, and go after their own lust, and let the spirit of the devil guide them to the way they were leaning, instead of letting everything go for God, so He would guide them to where He wanted them, to the truth.

Marie, I recognize and fully accept the role of the five-fold ministry in the Church today. They are gifts given to us by God, "for the equipping of the saints, for the work of ministry." I am myself, am a teacher, very active both in Church and Para-Church ministry as well as on the Faculty of two Bible Colleges.

But we need, as teachers of the Word of God, to be extremely careful of our words. (I make mistakes all the time, unfortunately!) Your comment in bold is simply incorrect. The statement you object to, is not my own. It comes directly from the pages of Scripture:

1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I am afraid you are mistaken in your assertion.The pastor is a Shepherd who leads and guides and yes, feeds the flock. But they were never intended in any way to be our sole source of spiritual nourishment. That is simply not a Biblical concept. Each of us is commanded by Scripture to be responsible for our own understanding of the Word.

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The Apostle Paul was a pretty good teacher of the Word. He wrote a majority of the NT. And yet, not even the words of Paul were simply accepted without verification.

Acts 17:10-12
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

They didn't accept things as true until they had proven them by the Holy Spirit through their personal study of Scripture. Because of that practice, not Paul's preaching, it says that many believed.
To follow your belief to it's logical conclusion has led many into serious error. they end up following a man rather than the Scriptures under the guidance of the Spirit. Hence we have today, Calvinism, Lutheranism, Campbelites, Russelites (Jehovah's Witnesses), a myriad of other cults, as well as such tragedies as Jonestown and Waco. All of these were direct results of exactly the kind of thinking you described.

Let me be clear, I believe wholeheartedly that God has give to the Church, gifted men to lead, inspire, teach and protect. But never once in the pages of the Bible are those ever intended to serve in the way you describe. We are to "work out our own salvation, with fear and trembling."

Joshua 1:8
8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

My physical body will not function properly if I eat only three a week. By the same token, my spirit will not function at it's best if I only feed it on Sunday's and Wednesday. We are to have a steady diet, preferably daily. If we read our Bibles the way we read our newspapers we'd all be the better for it.

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:

The abuse of the truth by some can never allow the rejection of the truth by the many.

[Livelystone]

Are you denying the Authority and Inspiration of the Scriptures? I ask because all of the Scriptures I listed prove that there is nothing hidden from the child of God ?


A rebuke is very serious and I only use it when I hear Satan speaking through someone. The first time I rebuked you was when you called me a false prophet and the 2nd time is as I have quoted again is your passive aggressive suggestion I am denying the Scriptures. I expect you to be man enough not to run and hide behind the passive aggressiveness expressed in your words because your intention has already been noted both on earth and in heaven that corresponds with your "false prophet" accusation of me. Fair enough?

The Bible makes it very clear that there are both good teachers and bad teachers who still need to be taught the rudiments of the truth. Those who do not use all Scriptures that pertain to the subject are denying the 1st rudiments of the truth and in doing so have committed the sin of forcing a witness to remain silent. (Leviticus 5:1)

You're telling Marie that she is wrong in needing teachers (because they know the truth and have God's approval on them) while quoting a verse from the epistle of John while at the same you have obviously either through intention or ignorance overlooked the fact that John is speaking only of those who have the Holy Spirit abiding in them. In other words they have not just been given the Holy Spirit, but because they've been taught the truth and have the love of God in their heart the Holy Spirit is abiding them allowing them to overcome the deeds and desires of Satan.

Do you understand the difference between being given the Holy Spirit and having the Holy Spirit abiding in you? Because there is a major difference, and the only time Christians sin is when the Holy Spirit is not the spirit that is abiding in their heart at the time that they have committed the sin......... and that you can take to the bank!

John had already addressed the situation before you took one verse of his while choosing to ignore the others that describe those who had the Holy Spirit abiding in them. Take a look earlier in the chapter;

John 2:13
I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

Both of the above have been given the Holy Spirit otherwise it would not be children of God let alone “young men” who have not yet become “fathers a.k.a. elders”. The difference between the young men and the children is overcoming the wicked one that is only accomplished by having the Holy Spirit abiding in one's heart. I already have a thread here explaining what happens when Christians fall back into sin because the Holy Spirit has left their heart. Suggest you spend some time there.

Our hearts are pictured as the lamps in the room of the holies that had to be trimmed daily, or in other words if they were not trimmed daily as in having additional oil added to them they no longer burned. Hopefully, the teaching is not lost in the metaphor.

In conclusion:

It is very apparent that you have not yet overcome Satan because you are quick to make false accusations revealing your lack of knowledge of the truth.

Several times since I've been here you have exhibited signs of immaturity patting yourself on the back while putting other people down and I'm not the 1st to say this.

You are a teacher who still needs to be taught!

Blessings

Doug

[larrylyates]

Your post is interesting. You accuse me falsely, the very thing you claim I had done to you. I never once told Sister Marie that she didn't need teachers. I have no idea where you got that. What I actually said was:

Marie, I recognize and fully accept the role of the five-fold ministry in the Church today. They are gifts given to us by God, "for the equipping of the saints, for the work of ministry."
The pastor is a Shepherd who leads and guides and yes, feeds the flock. But they were never intended in any way to be our sole source of spiritual nourishment. That is simply not a Biblical concept. Each of us is commanded by Scripture to be responsible for our own understanding of the Word.

Let me be clear, I believe wholeheartedly that God has given to the Church, gifted men to lead, inspire, teach and protect.

I did point out the problem with the particular way of thinking followed by some:

To follow your belief to its logical conclusion has led many into serious error. they end up following a man rather than the Scriptures under the guidance of the Spirit. Hence we have today, Calvinism, Lutheranism, Campbelites, Russelites (Jehovah's Witnesses), a myriad of other cults, as well as such tragedies as Jonestown and Waco. All of these were direct results of exactly the kind of thinking you described.

Can you show me where I told her she didn't need teachers?

[Livelystone]

Your post is interesting. You accuse me falsely, the very thing you claim I had done to you. I never once told Sister Marie that she didn't need teachers. I have no idea where you got that. What I actually said was:

Marie, I recognize and fully accept the role of the five-fold ministry in the Church today. They are gifts given to us by God, "for the equipping of the saints, for the work of ministry."
The pastor is a Shepherd who leads and guides and yes, feeds the flock. But they were never intended in any way to be our sole source of spiritual nourishment. That is simply not a Biblical concept. Each of us is commanded by Scripture to be responsible for our own understanding of the Word.

Let me be clear, I believe wholeheartedly that God has given to the Church, gifted men to lead, inspire, teach and protect.

I did point out the problem with the particular way of thinking followed by some:

To follow your belief to its logical conclusion has led many into serious error. they end up following a man rather than the Scriptures under the guidance of the Spirit. Hence we have today, Calvinism, Lutheranism, Campbelites, Russelites (Jehovah's Witnesses), a myriad of other cults, as well as such tragedies as Jonestown and Waco. All of these were direct results of exactly the kind of thinking you described.

Can you show me where I told her she didn't need teachers?

Have a little respect to the truth larry

Your whole todo to Mary was not needing teachers because we have the scriptures and the Holy Spirit.......... when she pointed out in bold to you that teacher are needed you said the following words

These are your words !!!

Your comment in bold is simply incorrect. The statement you object to, is not my own. It comes directly from the pages of Scripture:

And what is your supoport for linking me to this?

a myriad of other cults, as well as such tragedies as Jonestown and Waco. All of these were direct results of exactly the kind of thinking you described.
[/I]


Fair enough?

[larrylyates]

Have a little respect to the truth larry

Your whole todo to Mary was not needing teachers because we have the scriptures and the Holy Spirit.......... when she pointed out in bold to you that teacher are needed you said the following words

These are your words !!!



And what is your supoport for linking me to this !@#$%^&*()

a myriad of other cults, as well as such tragedies as Jonestown and Waco. All of these were direct results of exactly the kind of thinking you described.


Fair enough?

No Doug, not "fair enough." You continue to misrepresent me. A partial truth is still a complete lie. You very craftily, dissect the statement I made while completely ignoring every single qualifier I offered to her to demonstrate the Biblical role of teachers.

What I said to Marie needs to be seen in context:

Your comment in bold is simply incorrect. The statement you object to, is not my own. It comes directly from the pages of Scripture:

1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

"Ye need not that any man teach you:" does that phrase appear in your Bible or not?

"all of the Scriptures I listed prove that there is nothing hidden from the child of God and that we were given the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth and have no need that any man teach us."

Can you show me please the linguistic difference between the two statements?

As for your concluding question? None of those remarks were directed toward you. Why are you responding in this way? Those remarks were made in my post to Marie and had nothing to do with you. Nothing at all.

However, two things I would like to call to your attention:

We do not allow any rebuking, hatefulness, name calling, or verbal attacks by any person or group of people, toward any person or group of people. Content that is unseemly, using bad language, or any form of insinuating bad language (i.e. one letter and ****), or offensive slang, is not permitted.

This administration knows that God's Word allows for rebuking and correction under certain conditions, but because of the lack of understanding by some, as well as the differing views by a multitude of readers here, and for the sake of peace, we will not permit it under any circumstances.

You are in direct violation of all of the above. Furthermore, you leave me a bit confused. Your cursing is sin, yet you state that this is simply not possible for those with your level of understanding and abiding in the Spirit.

Your problem with 1 John 2:27 is between you and God. Your objection is to the words of the Holy Writ, not with me. Agree with me or not I don't care, but do not try to deny that God said it.

I too have had issues with some others on this forum. I have had to apologize to several people for allowing my own rhetoric to get out of hand. The ability on AFF to have rational discourse with those of like precious faith is highly impeded. This is apparently the case here. I am sorry for that. In the Early Church the Prophets were subject to one another and everything to be judged according to the Word by the others. You don't seem to respond well to that so I have refrained in the last several weeks from commenting on your posts.

[Godsdrummer]

I just have one thing to say, having just read this whole thread, while enjoying my first cup of coffee, then reading the authors description of a modern day prophet.

1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Anyone that comes claiming to be a prophet, and claims to have new understanding of some lost teaching of 2000 years, should be marked.

[SwordSainT]

I believe this can go on forever until the line is crossed between a principle and a law. Holiness, just like righteousness is a principle. Principles are eternal and cannot be changed. When a church connects with the PRINCIPLE of holiness the expression of that principle will show in the church.

Legalism is laws and therefore will always be subject to times, situations or circumstances. Laws can be bent, broken or challenged but principles cant.

Example: Holiness in dress for a lady would say "you ought to dress like a women and not like a man" Holiness in a legal form would say "your skirt length must be 30" or else its unholy". There is a big difference.

Ive been a youth Pastor for over 10 years and ive never had to paint a law (much) to people who have a grip on God. They usually will be lead to git rid of certain things and have the same conviction based on what they have SEEN, HEARD, and FELT by God.

[Godsdrummer]

Ive been a youth Pastor for over 10 years and ive never had to paint a law (much) to people who have a grip on God. They usually will be lead to git rid of certain things and have the same conviction based on what they have SEEN, HEARD, and FELT by God.

I fell I must resopond to this, it just came at me the wrong way. Mostly because Ihave been in the ministry over 40 years. I have seen all types of teachings in the church, from pastors that were authoritatian, to pastors that most would call liberal. What gets me is that the spirit of God was manifest in all these meetings. I am remminded of one verse of scripture, "God does not dwell in an unclean vessal". Years ago my family attened a church for two years where the pastor did not teach standards, my Sunday school teacher wore pants and had cut hair. Yes she was a women. The same family had a, (God forbid, a tv) as did many in the church. Yet the spirit of God was in the lives of these wonderful people. Yet many would say they were on their way to hell, because they were not holy, based on their definition of holiness.

Holiness IS NOT OUTWARD APPERAL, holiness is the inner man of the heart, as Peter describes in I Peter 3. People will in fact be lead to get rid of certain things by What they have Seen, Heard, and Felt, but it is not God that has taught them, rather what they have seen, heard and felt within the society (church) they attend.

An example of this, I was assiate minister for ten years to a pastor did not teach standards, of any kind. His wife came to me one day and ask me, "why did so many leave the church over standards, when her husband did not teach standards?" I had no answer for her at the time until I realized, it was her spirit that was condeming others, concerning standards. See she was very stanch in standards of holiness.

On one hand some might say her spirit was convicting others of a need to accept standards. When in fact it was her spirit that was judging others of standards she held high in her own convictions, and when others studied these things out for themselves and came to a differing conclusion, they would rather leave this church than cause division.

When a saint come to a pastor, and tells him that they have studied certain points in their teaching and found differing opinions. Many pastors take offense and fall back on the "I am the pastor and I am responsible for your soul, or this is the teaching of this church or organization, if you do not to follow this teaching you are in rebelion." Instead of taking the opportunity to reflect on the teaching they have held to and maybe God forbid change the way they teach or what they teach.

[SwordSainT]

I fell I must resopond to this, it just came at me the wrong way. Mostly because Ihave been in the ministry over 40 years. I have seen all types of teachings in the church, from pastors that were authoritatian, to pastors that most would call liberal. What gets me is that the spirit of God was manifest in all these meetings.

I see where your coming from so dont get me wrong - I am definitely not liberal in my walk but at the same time I do not see the need to express my personal convictions of holiness as much as live what i know if holy. When we talk about "principles" of any kind. Those principles are most often gained by the example steered by the influencers in ones life.

A Pastor can only preach and hammer in standards so much but eventually the church must show the example of what it believes. It comes by preaching of the word of example of the saints. When i got saved i didnt need someone to sit down with me and explain to me all the things i needed to get rid of. I simply prayed and sought God and those things were revealed to me in time.
When i came to my Pastor asking to be used in ministry, others were brought to my attention that I needed to adhere to.

[Godsdrummer]

I see where your coming from so dont get me wrong - I am definitely not liberal in my walk but at the same time I do not see the need to express my personal convictions of holiness as much as live what i know if holy. When we talk about "principles" of any kind. Those principles are most often gained by the example steered by the influencers in ones life.

A Pastor can only preach and hammer in standards so much but eventually the church must show the example of what it believes. It comes by preaching of the word of example of the saints. When i got saved i didnt need someone to sit down with me and explain to me all the things i needed to get rid of. I simply prayed and sought God and those things were revealed to me in time.
When i came to my Pastor asking to be used in ministry, others were brought to my attention that I needed to adhere to.

You are making my point, whether you know it or not. It should not be the things we must give up as much as the things we gain when we come into the kingdom of God. As you said, "you did not have to have some one explain all the things you needed to get rid of" and then there were even more things you needed to get rid of when you wanted to be used in ministry, that were brought to your attention by your pastor. This is legalism whether we want to admit it or not.

Paul states in two places, "all things are lawful" it is not so much in what we do that is sin, it is how and why we so something that makes it sin. I will go as far as to say I can have a beer at the end of the day and not sin, unless it offends another brother. I use that as an example because it drives home my meaning far better than to say "I can eat food offered to an idol".

We have made everything sin, forgeting God gave all things for our enjoyment.

Just the very fact that we deem it neccesary to discuse holiness vs. legalism, points to the fact we still have not gotten what holiness is. Meaning we still think it has something to do with clothes, whether we can wear a beard, whether a women can cut her hair. When none of this things have anything to do with being holy.

Holiness is not something we put on like a shirt and tie. As Peter writes, one of the most misused passages of scripture by legalistic teachers. Our holiness is not the putting on of apparel, but the hidden man of the heart. I Peter 3. Many want to say this passage teaches we are not to put on those things listed by Peter. But the true reading of this passage is that we can put on those things, but we are not to try and show our holiness by putting on things, but rather let the true spirit of God be seen in our whole lives. This is true holiness.

I will say this about ministry, a true minister will gain those that follow them because of the spirit about them, not because they have adhered to some set of guide lines in order to become a minister. I have experiance this in my own personal life. A true minister is one that ministers to others period. All others are wolves and hirelings.

[Esaias]

You are making my point, whether you know it or not. It should not be the things we must give up as much as the things we gain when we come into the kingdom of God. As you said, "you did not have to have some one explain all the things you needed to get rid of" and then there were even more things you needed to get rid of when you wanted to be used in ministry, that were brought to your attention by your pastor. This is legalism whether we want to admit it or not.

Paul states in two places, "all things are lawful" it is not so much in what we do that is sin, it is how and why we so something that makes it sin. I will go as far as to say I can have a beer at the end of the day and not sin, unless it offends another brother. I use that as an example because it drives home my meaning far better than to say "I can eat food offered to an idol".

We have made everything sin, forgeting God gave all things for our enjoyment.

Just the very fact that we deem it neccesary to discuse holiness vs. legalism, points to the fact we still have not gotten what holiness is. Meaning we still think it has something to do with clothes, whether we can wear a beard, whether a women can cut her hair. When none of this things have anything to do with being holy.

Holiness is not something we put on like a shirt and tie. As Peter writes, one of the most misused passages of scripture by legalistic teachers. Our holiness is not the putting on of apparel, but the hidden man of the heart. I Peter 3. Many want to say this passage teaches we are not to put on those things listed by Peter. But the true reading of this passage is that we can put on those things, but we are not to try and show our holiness by putting on things, but rather let the true spirit of God be seen in our whole lives. This is true holiness.

I will say this about ministry, a true minister will gain those that follow them because of the spirit about them, not because they have adhered to some set of guide lines in order to become a minister. I have experiance this in my own personal life. A true minister is one that ministers to others period. All others are wolves and hirelings.

Sin is transgression of the law. Sometimes it takes a brother to point out something to us. This is not legalism.

Legalism is attempting to be justified in the sight of God by our own works. It is certainly not being given advice and direction by an elder.

A true minister is NOT 'someone who ministers to others period.' A true minister is one who ministers to others IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE WORD OF GOD, period.

The bible contains EXPLICIT qualifications for 'ministers' (aka DEACONS) and elders (aka BISHOPS). That is not legalism. That is Gospel.

[Godsdrummer]

Sin is transgression of the law. Sometimes it takes a brother to point out something to us. This is not legalism.

Legalism is attempting to be justified in the sight of God by our own works. It is certainly not being given advice and direction by an elder.

A true minister is NOT 'someone who ministers to others period.' A true minister is one who ministers to others IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE WORD OF GOD, period.

The bible contains EXPLICIT qualifications for 'ministers' (aka DEACONS) and elders (aka BISHOPS). That is not legalism. That is Gospel.

Esaias
"sin is transgression of the law", who's law? Your law, mans law? It it takes a brother to point out something to us, than I say it is a man made law. That is legalism.

Herein is the problem with so many religions, the stitching together of passages out of context, to teach man made doctrines. The spacific qualifications given in I Tim. 1, and Titus 1, are for the Office of a Bishop, not the gifts of the ministry as listed by Paul in Ephesians 4. The gifts listed by Paul in Ephesians, were given to equip the saints, (each and every one of us) that we can do the work of ministry, and to edify the church.

A Bishop on the other hand was an office of superintendent, to perfom the administrative duties of the church.
Nowhere in all scripture does God give any instruction describing the duties that we have perscribed to the ones we call bishops or pastors.

The twisting of Hebrews 13:17, is not that passage either. For the word "obey" in that passage, means, "by pursuasion".

What gets me, is for the three and a half years Christ minstered, not once did he demand authority be given him. Neither did he ever touch of outward apperal as holiness. As a matter of fact he upbraided the religous leader for that very thing. The painting of the out side of the vessal to look holy. Yet that is what this whole thread is all about. The Painting of the outside of the vessal and calling it holiness.

We have the example of Jesus to show us what ministry is, further we have the example of the apostles in the early church to give us examples of what ministry is. And yet we still refuse to acknowledge what is clear in their example.

We continue to add rule after rule to the list of what we deem to be sin, just as the religious leaders of Christ day had done thinking we have obtained eternal life through obediance to these, I say we have missed the whole good news of the kingdom of God. That is personal relationship with God in this life.

We can talk about Covenants, Yes God made a Covenant with man, He would give life to the individual that had faith in him. Our part is to Love God, with all our heart soul and mind, and to love our neighbor as our self. Where with we fulfill the the commandment of God.

Pray tell me how obediance to man made list of do's and don'ts fulfills loving your neighbor as yourself.

[Esaias]

Esaias
"sin is transgression of the law", who's law? Your law, mans law?

God's law.

It it takes a brother to point out something to us, than I say it is a man made law. That is legalism.

Nonsense, and neither is it legalism. Sometimes it takes a brother pointing out to us that we are being arrogant, haughty, spiteful, mean, etc. Paul did exactly that numerous times in his epistles. Was he being a legalist? No, he simply pointed out where his fellow brethren were violating the commands of God.



Pray tell me how obediance to man made list of do's and don'ts fulfills loving your neighbor as yourself.

It doesn't. Obedience to the commandments of God however is the expression of love to God and our neighbor.