Mega upc church in Turmoil ?????

[Thad]

Have you heard that a Mega church in the west is in major turmoil since the pastor handed down the church to someone else last week???????

[ReformedDave]

Have you heard that a Mega church in the west is in major turmoil since the pastor handed down the church to someone else last week???????

Rock Church??????

[Thad]

Rock Church??????


no that transition happend quite a while ago didn't it ?

[ReformedDave]

no that transition happend quite a while ago didn't it ?

OK. Which one????

[Thad]

OK. Which one????


Dave I wont post it publically I'll just say we are seeing some of the fallout first hand

what happend and how it happend came as a shock

[South of I 90]

UPC??

[South of I 90]

duh.....I'm stupid back to the cave!

[Thad]

UPC??



Oh

here's the thread- I thought newsflashes had to started in the special section ??


Yes, it's UPC

[Margies3]

maybe I'm the only one who feels this way, but..............

good heavens, Thad. If it was YOUR church that was in the middle of this turmoil, would you want it plastered all over the internet?? I know that I wouldn't.

[Ferd]

maybe I'm the only one who feels this way, but..............

good heavens, Thad. If it was YOUR church that was in the middle of this turmoil, would you want it plastered all over the internet?? I know that I wouldn't.

isnt that how we got blubayou to join our little club?

[South of I 90]

Oh

Yes, it's UPC

If your definition of a "Mega" church is one with over 2000 members, then I'm only aware of one UPC church that meets this criteria..........(well maybe 2).

Both of them are in close proximity of Highway 99. Would it be one of them??

[Thad]

i know very little about it right now - the name will not be revealed by me

it's going to be discussed, talked about, diasected, whether you like it or not Margerie. welcome to Pentecost .

when you're high Profile and nationally known everyone wants to know.

[South of I 90]

when you're high Profile and nationally known everyone wants to know.

Braggart!!:heeheehee

[berkeley]

Really, what is the point??

[Ronzo]

maybe I'm the only one who feels this way, but..............

good heavens, Thad. If it was YOUR church that was in the middle of this turmoil, would you want it plastered all over the internet?? I know that I wouldn't.

Ethics don't matter...

[berkeley]

Ethics don't matter...:beatdeadhorse

[HeavenlyOne]

Ethics don't matter...

Define ethics..........

[Warmbee]

Rock Church??????


I thought Christian Life Center was bigger than The Rock Church? I visited the Rock Church a few years ago and it didn't seem like a 'mega church' to me.

[Ronzo]

Define ethics..........
Yeah, I guess it's all relative anyway, eh?

[ReformedDave]

I thought Christian Life Center was bigger than The Rock Church? I visited the Rock Church a few years ago and it didn't seem like a 'mega church' to me.

'Mega' is a relative term......and I have a few mega relatives.:tease

[LaGirl]

Have you heard that a Mega church in the west is in major turmoil since the pastor handed down the church to someone else last week???????

was this a father/son team?

[Thad]

'Mega' is a relative term......and I have a few mega relatives.:tease


mega in UPC is in the upper hunreds or more IMO

mega in general standards is 2000 or more

[ReformedDave]

mega in UPC is in the upper hunreds or more IMO

mega in general standards is 2000 or more

I think you're correct.

[South of I 90]

mega in UPC is in the upper hunreds or more IMO

mega in general standards is 2000 or more


Once again the UPC has its own set of standards!!

:tease

[Truthseeker]

Is it another church passed on to a son? Let me guess son n law?

Amazing the sons are always called to take over the church, just amazing.

[LaGirl]

Is it another church passed on to a son? Let me guess son n law?

Amazing the sons are always called to take over the church, just amazing.

TELL ME ABOUT IT!!!!
it is like family is the ONLY ones called to the ministry!

[Truthseeker]

TELL ME ABOUT IT!!!!
it is like family is the ONLY ones called to the ministry!

don't you know it's a family business?

[deltaguitar]

TELL ME ABOUT IT!!!!
it is like family is the ONLY ones called to the ministry!

What happens when the son-in-law takes over against the current pastors will?

Anyone know of this happening?

:dunno

[LaGirl]

don't you know it's a family business?

you would think i would know by now. :dunno

[LaGirl]

What happens when the son-in-law takes over against the current pastors will?

Anyone know of this happening?

:dunno

you mean against the father n laws will?

[philjones]

don't you know it's a family business?

I actually heard first ear a choir director, daughter of the pastor, tell the choir that they needed to get a grip and understand that the reason she was so emotional about their performance was because the church was their family business and she wanted it to be the best it could be.

Her brother was the Sunday School Director, her husband was the youth leader, her uncle was director of ushers, her aunt was outreach director, another aunt was head hostess and greeter, I was the only non family member in leadership in that church.

[LaGirl]

I actually heard first ear a choir director, daughter of the pastor, tell the choir that they needed to get a grip and understand that the reason she was so emotional about their performance was because the church was their family business and she wanted it to be the best it could be.

Her brother was the Sunday School Director, her husband was the youth leader, her uncle was director of ushers, her aunt was outreach director, another aunt was head hostess and greeter, I was the only non family member in leadership in that church.

WOW! you were extended family! :heeheehee

[Margies3]

i know very little about it right now - the name will not be revealed by me

it's going to be discussed, talked about, diasected, whether you like it or not Margerie. welcome to Pentecost .

when you're high Profile and nationally known everyone wants to know.

Just another reason why I am happy to be able to say that I am no longer Pentecostal. Sad, isn't it - I've found in other church organizations that when problems happen, it does not get spread around like gossip. And when someone does happen to hear about it, the first thing they want to do is PRAY.

Maybe that's something that those who thrive on this kind of stuff should give some thought to.

[deltaguitar]

you mean against the father n laws will?

Yes, lets say that the son-in-law is the assistant pastor for like 15 years. The church decides it is time for father-in-law to retire.

Could cause some family problems.

[Blubayou]

isnt that how we got blubayou to join our little club?

Ferd- I had lurked a long time before posting about our situation. I did try to set the record straight with just the facts. I do not know if I was successful or not. :dunno

[ManOfWord]

I actually heard first ear a choir director, daughter of the pastor, tell the choir that they needed to get a grip and understand that the reason she was so emotional about their performance was because the church was their family business and she wanted it to be the best it could be.

Her brother was the Sunday School Director, her husband was the youth leader, her uncle was director of ushers, her aunt was outreach director, another aunt was head hostess and greeter, I was the only non family member in leadership in that church.

I am very close to a UPC church which is currently in a grave situation due, in part, to this very thing. Too much family, not enough accountability. It's a formula for disaster.

This NO ONE in my family, in any position at NLC, or in line to "inherit" a position!

[Truthseeker]

I actually heard first ear a choir director, daughter of the pastor, tell the choir that they needed to get a grip and understand that the reason she was so emotional about their performance was because the church was their family business and she wanted it to be the best it could be.

Her brother was the Sunday School Director, her husband was the youth leader, her uncle was director of ushers, her aunt was outreach director, another aunt was head hostess and greeter, I was the only non family member in leadership in that church.

What a shame. We how much to learn in regards to the church acting as a body of Christ.

[LaVonne]

TELL ME ABOUT IT!!!!
it is like family is the ONLY ones called to the ministry!

Sometimes I wonder if some are really called!

[Truthseeker]

Sometimes I wonder if some are really called!

Good point!

I wonder how one voted in is really called.

[tyhuff]

This is not a popular opinion on this thread BUT if my husband and I founded a church and poured our sweat and guts and put years of ministry into it and we had a son who was called into the ministry and he was the man for the church ABSOLUTLEY he would be the next pastor. sorry.

[berkeley]

This is not a popular opinion on this thread BUT if my husband and I founded a church and poured our sweat and guts and put years of ministry into it and we had a son who was called into the ministry and he was the man for the church ABSOLUTLEY he would be the next pastor. sorry.


got to looove Nepotism....



The exiting pastor should not appoint the next pastor. JMO..

[RevDWW]

got to looove Nepotism....



The exiting pastor should not appoint the next pastor. JMO..

Berk, I whole heartly agree! The Church should get to vote on the Next Pastor!

[Fonix]

Berk, I whole heartly agree! The Church should get to vote on the Next Pastor!


Bingo

[Truthseeker]

This is not a popular opinion on this thread BUT if my husband and I founded a church and poured our sweat and guts and put years of ministry into it and we had a son who was called into the ministry and he was the man for the church ABSOLUTLEY he would be the next pastor. sorry.

Who determines he's the man? Obviously, most fathers would be bias in declaring him the man.

It quite evident that your personal attachment would play a mojor role in it verses him just being plain old called to the position.

[LaVonne]

Good point!

I wonder how one voted in is really called.

I found out some time ago that a local pastor in our area was visiting one of our churches (years and years ago) and the people liked him and voted him in as pastor. Interestingly enough, he never felt called to this area...

[LaVonne]

Who determines he's the man? Obviously, most fathers would be bias in declaring him the man.

It quite evident that your personal attachment would play a mojor role in it verses him just being plain old called to the position.

This kind of thing really bothers me sometimes. I have no problem with a Father/Pastor wanting his son to take over. The issue I have is when the son is not qualified and or lacks the calling, God's anointing, etc...He just takes over because it's expected...he gets a license to preach because Daddy let him preach as much as he wanted/needed to qualify, while many others get left behind.

[LaGirl]

Just another reason why I am happy to be able to say that I am no longer Pentecostal. Sad, isn't it - I've found in other church organizations that when problems happen, it does not get spread around like gossip. And when someone does happen to hear about it, the first thing they want to do is PRAY.

Maybe that's something that those who thrive on this kind of stuff should give some thought to.

i bet it does...you just dont know it

[LaGirl]

Yes, lets say that the son-in-law is the assistant pastor for like 15 years. The church decides it is time for father-in-law to retire.

Could cause some family problems.

yep....that could cause problems!

[LaGirl]

This is not a popular opinion on this thread BUT if my husband and I founded a church and poured our sweat and guts and put years of ministry into it and we had a son who was called into the ministry and he was the man for the church ABSOLUTLEY he would be the next pastor. sorry.

Yes..IF he was the man. Seems like the son or son n law is ALWAYS the man.

[LaGirl]

Sometimes I wonder if some are really called!

i do too

[LaVonne]

Yes..IF he was the man. Seems like the son or son n law is ALWAYS the man.

You are so right...

[SoCaliUPC]

So what is happening at CLC?

[Guy]

This is not a popular opinion on this thread BUT if my husband and I founded a church and poured our sweat and guts and put years of ministry into it and we had a son who was called into the ministry and he was the man for the church ABSOLUTLEY he would be the next pastor. sorry.

Amen!!!
I would love to see one of my offspring take over when I retire. Doubt it will happen but would love to see it.

[LaGirl]

So what is happening at CLC?

dunno.

[Trouvere]

I think what is good for the church should be the deciding factor but it usually never is.

[SoCaliUPC]

Amen!!!
I would love to see one of my offspring take over when I retire. Doubt it will happen but would love to see it.

I think it is extremely important for the flock to select it's new shepherd.

[LaGirl]

I think it is extremely important for the flock to select it's new shepherd.

i agree. if they vote in the relative....that is great. i think they should have a say so.

[Guy]

I think it is extremely important for the flock to select it's new shepherd.

By its constitution my church will, as should any church.
But, if anyone thinks I am going to leave something that I have invested my blood, sweat and tears in to the first applicant that comes along they have got another thing coming.
Who else to better know the mind of God for a church than the shepherd who has been there.
The problem with laity is that they vote based on a sermon or a smile rather than the things that are really important.

[Monkeyman]

Ok, someone tell me/PM me to what in tarnation is going on??? If the Rock church is in trouble I am MAD at the devil! (Well, even if it isn't I'm still mad at him).
I feel like going back home and slappin' some of yous (canadian, eh) silly.
Is this a reflection on the WD fiasco?
LET ME KNOW!!!!!!!!

[SoCaliUPC]

By its constitution my church will, as should any church.
But, if anyone thinks I am going to leave something that I have invested my blood, sweat and tears in to the first applicant that comes along they have got another thing coming.
Who else to better know the mind of God for a church than the shepherd who has been there.
The problem with laity is that they vote based on a sermon or a smile rather than the things that are really important.

Does the mind of God automatically equate the son of the pastor?? If the church is following the mind of God...if it was the son of the pastor that needed to be the next pastor of that church....there would be unity in the decision. Right?

[Guy]

Does the mind of God automatically equate the son of the pastor?? If the church is following the mind of God...if it was the son of the pastor that needed to be the next pastor of that church....there would be unity in the decision. Right?

No, it does not automatically equate the son of the pastor, nor the first cousin, nor the nephew.
BTW, I believe a new pastor should be voted in by the congregation, and that once voted in he should not be voted on again.

[Truthseeker]

By its constitution my church will, as should any church.
But, if anyone thinks I am going to leave something that I have invested my blood, sweat and tears in to the first applicant that comes along they have got another thing coming.
Who else to better know the mind of God for a church than the shepherd who has been there.
The problem with laity is that they vote based on a sermon or a smile rather than the things that are really important.

And the problem with with some pastors is they base their decision of favoritism and family ties.

[Monkeyman]

So what is happening at CLC?
??????????

[Truthseeker]

regarding the vote thing, how can one say he's called for that position when he was voted in by the church?

[SoCaliUPC]

??????????

Just asking the question....I have no idea.

[SoCaliUPC]

regarding the vote thing, how can one say he's called for that position when he was voted in by the church?


You are called to be a PASTOR, EVANGELIST, etc.

[Monkeyman]

Just asking the question....I have no idea.
whew!!! I was about to get on the telly!:drawguns

[SoCaliUPC]

whew!!! I was about to get on the telly!:drawguns


DO!!! You have the connection!!!!

[Blubayou]

I think some forget who the church belongs to- God- Just because we pour our blood, sweat and tears into a congregation, it does not belong to us. The laity also, pours its blood, sweat and tears into the work of God, too. It does not belong to either, but to God.

[berkeley]

The early church PRAYED, believing that God's choice for the replacement of Judas would be determined by a vote.

Acts 1:23-26
And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

[LaVonne]

I think some forget who the church belongs to- God- Just because we pour our blood, sweat and tears into a congregation, it does not belong to us. The laity also, pours its blood, sweat and tears into the work of God, too. It does not belong to either, but to God.

Amen!

[RevDWW]

The early church PRAYED, believing that God's choice for the replacement of Judas would be determined by a vote.
This is scary, I'm agreeing again with Berk, maybe it's the pistol he has clutched in his hands.

[Scott Hutchinson]

duh.....I'm stupid back to the cave!

Have you got geico yet?

[Neck]

Have you heard that a Mega church in the west is in major turmoil since the pastor handed down the church to someone else last week???????

That happens all the time. I have seen it first hand. Because many of the sheep forget they are following Christ.

[SoCaliUPC]

I'll just report...it is NOT The Rock Church or CLC.

Let's just debate the issue here...

Is it right for a pastor to single-handedly change the church by-laws to state he solely has a say in who the pastor is?

The longstanding by-laws stated the selection of a pastor would go to a vote of the church body.

[NLYP]

I'll just report...it is NOT The Rock Church or CLC.

Let's just debate the issue here...

Is it right for a pastor to single-handedly change the church by-laws to state he solely has a say in who the pastor is?
The longstanding by-laws stated the selection of a pastor would go to a vote of the church body.


Not only is it wrong its ILLEGAL!
Especially if the church is incorporated!

[crakjak]

I'll just report...it is NOT The Rock Church or CLC.

Let's just debate the issue here...

Is it right for a pastor to single-handedly change the church by-laws to state he solely has a say in who the pastor is?

The longstanding by-laws stated the selection of a pastor would go to a vote of the church body.

NO!
If the church had true multiple leadership this would not happen, the elders would prepare ahead of time for the transition so that the change could be seamless. There is no biblical prescient for the congregation to vote on leadership.

[NLYP]

Having just got "the scoop"....I can tell you that this is a TRUE thread.
I feel bad for this church...really I do.
GREAT CHURCH....I dont agrre much with the Pastor and this "move" on his part does add to my list of why I personally dont care for him.
Oh well...life goes on....

[QueenEsther]

Is it another church passed on to a son? Let me guess son n law?

Amazing the sons are always called to take over the church, just amazing.

Amazing that this is not always the case. We received a new pastor a couple of years ago and he has no relation to the former pastor.

[QueenEsther]

Just another reason why I am happy to be able to say that I am no longer Pentecostal. Sad, isn't it - I've found in other church organizations that when problems happen, it does not get spread around like gossip. And when someone does happen to hear about it, the first thing they want to do is PRAY.

Maybe that's something that those who thrive on this kind of stuff should give some thought to.

I am sorry you feel this way, not all of us are that way.

[QueenEsther]

This is not a popular opinion on this thread BUT if my husband and I founded a church and poured our sweat and guts and put years of ministry into it and we had a son who was called into the ministry and he was the man for the church ABSOLUTLEY he would be the next pastor. sorry.

I see nothing wrong with this either - of course I think it would be wrong to NOT allow someone to be used because they weren't family.

[QueenEsther]

This kind of thing really bothers me sometimes. I have no problem with a Father/Pastor wanting his son to take over. The issue I have is when the son is not qualified and or lacks the calling, God's anointing, etc...He just takes over because it's expected...he gets a license to preach because Daddy let him preach as much as he wanted/needed to qualify, while many others get left behind.

This is exactly what I don't agree with!!

[QueenEsther]

I think what is good for the church should be the deciding factor but it usually never is.

Our church voted in our new pastor and it was all done publicly - the votes were private but they were tallied and announced publicly all in the same meeting and there were numerous different counters to be safe.

[Margies3]

I am sorry you feel this way, not all of us are that way.

QE, I understand that and I appreciate it. I was just trying to make the point that I think it is in bad taste to spread things like this on an internet forum. This church is obviously in pain. We should be praying for them. Not feeding on their pain like vultures. I'm sorry to sound so harsh. But it makes me so sad when I see things like this on here. I cannot believe that God is pleased. What do you think? I don't mean that in a nasty way - I honestly am curious to know whether people think that God is ok with a conversation discussing someone else's hurts when we have nothing to offer them as healing balm.

Now don't get me wrong. I don't think the parts of this thread where it was discussed whether the pastor's son or son-in-law should take the church after him - that wasn't a wrong discussion. That's discussing a POINT. But the beginning of the thread - well, that, in my mind, was just pure gossip. I don't think we should ever "just get used to it. It's the world of Pentecost". I think God expects better of us.

Ok, I'm getting off my soapbox. Sorry to stir the waters.

[jollyrancher]

I'll just report...it is NOT The Rock Church or CLC.

Let's just debate the issue here...

Is it right for a pastor to single-handedly change the church by-laws to state he solely has a say in who the pastor is?

The longstanding by-laws stated the selection of a pastor would go to a vote of the church body.

Is it in the Fresno area? Didn't someone in that area just have heart surgery

[revrandy]

QE, I understand that and I appreciate it. I was just trying to make the point that I think it is in bad taste to spread things like this on an internet forum. This church is obviously in pain. We should be praying for them. Not feeding on their pain like vultures. I'm sorry to sound so harsh. But it makes me so sad when I see things like this on here. I cannot believe that God is pleased. What do you think? I don't mean that in a nasty way - I honestly am curious to know whether people think that God is ok with a conversation discussing someone else's hurts when we have nothing to offer them as healing balm.

Now don't get me wrong. I don't think the parts of this thread where it was discussed whether the pastor's son or son-in-law should take the church after him - that wasn't a wrong discussion. That's discussing a POINT. But the beginning of the thread - well, that, in my mind, was just pure gossip. I don't think we should ever "just get used to it. It's the world of Pentecost". I think God expects better of us.

Ok, I'm getting off my soapbox. Sorry to stir the waters.


Somebody's feelin' some pain that's for sure...

Margie.. some folks create pain... and then they have to suffer for it..

sometimes it just comes... and we deal with it.. but in all we should pray for one another... that's for sure...

[Margies3]

Somebody's feelin' some pain that's for sure...

Margie.. some folks create pain... and then they have to suffer for it..

sometimes it just comes... and we deal with it.. but in all we should pray for one another... that's for sure...

Thank you, RevRandy. My respect for you just went UP several notches :)

I'll tell you what - I'll join you in praying for this church, no matter who they are or where they are. As long as the church is in turmoil and in pain, they cannot reach out to the lost and hurting in the world. That's what they need to be doing. But it's hard to minister to others at a time when you need to be ministered to yourself - whether you are an individual or a church.

[SoCaliUPC]

Is it in the Fresno area? Didn't someone in that area just have heart surgery

No.

[Mike Williamson]

i know very little about it right now - the name will not be revealed by me

it's going to be discussed, talked about, diasected, whether you like it or not Margerie. welcome to Pentecost .

when you're high Profile and nationally known everyone wants to know.

So since everyone does it, that makes it OK?? "It's gonna happen anyway, so....guess what I heard..." LOL

[Fonix]

Somebody's feelin' some pain that's for sure...

Margie.. some folks create pain... and then they have to suffer for it..

sometimes it just comes... and we deal with it.. but in all we should pray for one another... that's for sure...

I cannot imagine a serious situation in my own church being publically discussed. I have to argree that things of this nature are pure gossip and Im not saying it doesnt draw a crowd but I am saying I think we should weigh our motives for discussing a sad situation regardless of what church it is

[secretplace]

The early church PRAYED, believing that God's choice for the replacement of Judas would be determined by a vote.

And with all the politicing that goes on, how can one be certain today?

[ReformedDave]

It's so nice not to have a horse in this race......but I do know who the jockeys are!!!!:tease

[Titus_2_3]

The National Enquirer Thread?

[Monkeyman]

Question. By definition, are there only 2 mega churches in the UPC? I know about POA and CLC. Does any other church have a congregation over 2,000? What about other "oneness" orgs? I do know that there are a lot of churches who have the "mega" style...contemporary, lights, media, and such, but I'm talking about membership over 2,000. Thanks!

[Falla39]

The early church PRAYED, believing that God's choice for the replacement of Judas would be determined by a vote.

Could it be that God lets (allows, permits) man/men to choose or

make choices for a period of time, until HIS time (fulness) when God

will CHOOSE and have HIS Way. God gave Moses the law, for trans-

gression of sin, UNTIL, the Seed (Jesus Christ) could come or get here.

Could it be God allowed Matthias, (by man's vote) until HE had CALLED

Saul of Tarsus. Could He allow some men to fill pulpits (by vote) UNTIL

the one HE has CALLED is ready! HE IS GOD! It's HIS Kingdom!!!

Blessings,

Falla39

[ReformedDave]

Question. By definition, are there only 2 mega churches in the UPC? I know about POA and CLC. Does any other church have a congregation over 2,000? What about other "oneness" orgs? I do know that there are a lot of churches who have the "mega" style...contemporary, lights, media, and such, but I'm talking about membership over 2,000. Thanks!

Membership? Does anybody actually have this today?

[Monkeyman]

Membership? Does anybody actually have this today?
I'm not using a catch word, just talking about number of people attending the church that claim that it is their church. We have many who have just started with us at our church and I mean brand spanking new and they would tell you that CCC is their church. Some have been baptized, some haven't, some have the Holy Ghost as evident by speaking in tongues others do not, yet they would all consider themself a member, I know this because some have said to me and others in conversation, "my church"!!!!!!

[ReformedDave]

I'm not using a catch word, just talking about number of people attending the church that claim that it is their church. We have many who have just started with us at our church and I mean brand spanking new and they would tell you that CCC is their church. Some have been baptized, some haven't, some have the Holy Ghost as evident by speaking in tongues others do not, yet they would all consider themself a member, I know this because some have said to me and others in conversation, "my church"!!!!!!

My point is that so many have eliminated formal church membership.

[StillStanding]

Who determines he's the man? Obviously, most fathers would be bias in declaring him the man.

It quite evident that your personal attachment would play a mojor role in it verses him just being plain old called to the position.
If you're a pastor and you feel that your son is "THE MAN" to take over the church, the church body will know he's "THE MAN" too!

If the church body feels differently, then obviously he is NOT the man!!!!

Pro 18:16 A man's gift maketh room for him, and bringeth him before great men.

[SoCaliUPC]

I cannot imagine a serious situation in my own church being publically discussed. I have to argree that things of this nature are pure gossip and Im not saying it doesnt draw a crowd but I am saying I think we should weigh our motives for discussing a sad situation regardless of what church it is


Do you know the church?

Anyway...what people have been talking about for the majority of this thread is the ISSUE at hand....is it right for a pastor to unilaterally change the by-laws to state he, not the church body, choose the next pastor? This is the issue at hand.

[SoCaliUPC]

The National Enquirer Thread?

Get over it....

Unlike the National Enquirer that posts no-truths whatsoever....this particular case has been proven to be true...

HOWEVER...what has been discussed in this thread has been the ISSUE of whether it is right for a pastor to unilaterally change the by-laws to state that he, not the church body, choose the next pastor.

[SoCaliUPC]

Question. By definition, are there only 2 mega churches in the UPC? I know about POA and CLC. Does any other church have a congregation over 2,000? What about other "oneness" orgs? I do know that there are a lot of churches who have the "mega" style...contemporary, lights, media, and such, but I'm talking about membership over 2,000. Thanks!


Monkeyman....I would not call this church a mega-church. If you knew the church you would not think so as well. Is it a big church? Yes. Is it a mega church? No.

However...back to the issue at hand....

[SoCaliUPC]

If you're a pastor and you feel that your son is "THE MAN" to take over the church, the church body will know he's "THE MAN" too!

If the church body feels differently, then obviously he is NOT the man!!!!

Pro 18:16 A man's gift maketh room for him, and bringeth him before great men.

I tend to agree with this.

[South of I 90]

Monkeyman....I would not call this church a mega-church. If you knew the church you would not think so as well. Is it a big church? Yes. Is it a mega church?


It's a Mega-Church of tens of tens!! :heeheehee

[SoCaliUPC]

It's a Mega-Church of tens of tens!! :heeheehee

HAHAHA!! Well...a few more then that.

[South of I 90]

HAHAHA!! Well...a few more then that.

Modesto?

[Thumper]

Unfortunately this is a situation that is all to common in Pentecost.

Very sad indeed.

[ManOfWord]

Do you know the church?

Anyway...what people have been talking about for the majority of this thread is the ISSUE at hand....is it right for a pastor to unilaterally change the by-laws to state he, not the church body, choose the next pastor? This is the issue at hand.

Unless the By-Laws expressly give the pastor the authority to change them, he cannot unilaterally change them. That would be illegal especially if they are incorporated with the state. The By-Laws are the legal binding document of the "corporation" which spells out how the corporation will be governed etc.

If the By-Laws give the pastor carte blanc to change whatever he wants whenever he wants, then, IMO, the people who voted on them are indeed stupid with a capital "P!" And the pastor is maniacal with a capital "M!" And this would be nepotism with a capital "N!"


What's that spell? PMN!!!!!! :killinme

[Margies3]

Unless the By-Laws expressly give the pastor the authority to change them, he cannot unilaterally change them. That would be illegal especially if they are incorporated with the state. The By-Laws are the legal binding document of the "corporation" which spells out how the corporation will be governed etc.

If the By-Laws give the pastor carte blanc to change whatever he wants whenever he wants, then, IMO, the people who voted on them are indeed stupid with a capital "P!" And the pastor is maniacal with a capital "M!" And this would be nepotism with a capital "N!"


What's that spell? PMN!!!!!! :killinme

Stupid with a capital "P"????? Wouldn't that be Ptupid?? :killinme :killinme

[Fonix]

Stupid with a capital "P"????? Wouldn't that be Ptupid?? :killinme :killinme


I think he did that on purpose to prove the point of stupid :tease

[hammondb3klingon1]

I love church problems. Especially those "did you hear about ..." They are the best because ..... To speak about them are to SOW DISCORD which means those that gossip about them are homosexuals. <-Abomination == Abomination ->

[hammondb3klingon1]

Some people like it when others are hurting. IF there is a church in ... Someplace in California.. that has problems, I DO NOT WANT TO KNOW WHAT THE PROBLEMS ARE !! I just want to hear "Pray for xyz church they are going through rough times" at that we can all pray and let God Fix it. This is still the Body of Christ.

[berkeley]

Stupid with a capital "P"????? Wouldn't that be Ptupid?? :killinme :killinmeno.. there's stupid.. and then there's stu-Pid!!

[tv1a]

The apostles chose Matthias. God chose Paul. The human element of voting has its risks.

The early church PRAYED, believing that God's choice for the replacement of Judas would be determined by a vote.

[Sister Alvear]

May I say something rather personal here...I am the mother of 7 sons. For almost 30 years we worked in south Brazil and when we left that area we left our oldest son in charge because he had the same vision and shared the same burden...another one of our sons is scheduled to leave from this area we live in to a jungle area and work as a missionary. Both these sons proved themselves in the ministry. The other night my husband called another son that lives in this area and rumors have it that he is in line for this work. I heard my husband tell him son, if you think you are going to take this work when we hand it down it will BE the people that will love you, respect you and want you to be their pastor!
I do feel if a son has worked beside his father and is called and the people know and feel it then he is usually (not always) the one for the job...

I refuse to let a son or son in law destroy what I have worked all my life to build!

[South of I 90]

Merced?? :tease

[Falla39]

The apostles chose Matthias. God chose Paul. The human element of voting has its risks.

Bro. TV1A,

You said in less words and more simple, than what I was

trying to say in Post#95.

Blessings,

Falla39

[berkeley]

Merced?? :tease
Do you really think he would start a thread about his own church??

[ManOfWord]

Stupid with a capital "P"????? Wouldn't that be Ptupid?? :killinme :killinme

I think he did that on purpose to prove the point of stupid :tease

I knew there would be people here with their eyes open! :D

[Chan]

Do you know the church?

Anyway...what people have been talking about for the majority of this thread is the ISSUE at hand....is it right for a pastor to unilaterally change the by-laws to state he, not the church body, choose the next pastor? This is the issue at hand.Do the by-laws give him that right? If not, then he does not have that right.

[Margies3]

I knew there would be people here with their eyes open! :D

:doh boy, do I feel stuPid. Sorry 'bout the blunder.

[LaVonne]

May I say something rather personal here...I am the mother of 7 sons. For almost 30 years we worked in south Brazil and when we left that area we left our oldest son in charge because he had the same vision and shared the same burden...another one of our sons is scheduled to leave from this area we live in to a jungle area and work as a missionary. Both these sons proved themselves in the ministry. The other night my husband called another son that lives in this area and rumors have it that he is in line for this work. I heard my husband tell him son, if you think you are going to take this work when we hand it down it will BE the people that will love you, respect you and want you to be their pastor!
I do feel if a son has worked beside his father and is called and the people know and feel it then he is usually (not always) the one for the job...

I refuse to let a son or son in law destroy what I have worked all my life to build!

This is good thinking!

[SoCaliUPC]

Do the by-laws give him that right? If not, then he does not have that right.


No, which has made a BUNCH of saints....PILLAR SAINTS IN THE CHURCH, very upset

[ManOfWord]

No, which has made a BUNCH of saints....PILLAR SAINTS IN THE CHURCH, very upset

The solution is quite simple. All someone has to do is make one phone call. This type of behavior is illegal and could very well be in violation of state law. One phone call could stop the whole process and cause everyone to return to "Go" and back to the LEGAL by-laws. I have seen this happen more than once and when ONE person has total control, disaster is not far behind!

Don't get me wrong, the "captain", should be at the helm, but he can't operate a big ship by himself and neither should he. A good pastor knows that one of his greatest assets is godly people around him who will not be afraid to tell him the truth.

Too many church members have drunk the elixir that all disagreement is satanic and rebellious! It is poisonous.

[Kutless]

The solution is quite simple. All someone has to do is make one phone call. This type of behavior is illegal and could very well be in violation of state law. One phone call could stop the whole process and cause everyone to return to "Go" and back to the LEGAL by-laws. I have seen this happen more than once and when ONE person has total control, disaster is not far behind!

Don't get me wrong, the "captain", should be at the helm, but he can't operate a big ship by himself and neither should he. A good pastor knows that one of his greatest assets is godly people around him who will not be afraid to tell him the truth.

Too many church members have drunk the elixir that all disagreement is satanic and rebellious! It is poisonous.Pastor MOW this is the comment of the decade in my book. Absolute wisdom here. WOW MOW!!

[SoCaliUPC]

The solution is quite simple. All someone has to do is make one phone call. This type of behavior is illegal and could very well be in violation of state law. One phone call could stop the whole process and cause everyone to return to "Go" and back to the LEGAL by-laws. I have seen this happen more than once and when ONE person has total control, disaster is not far behind!

Don't get me wrong, the "captain", should be at the helm, but he can't operate a big ship by himself and neither should he. A good pastor knows that one of his greatest assets is godly people around him who will not be afraid to tell him the truth.

Too many church members have drunk the elixir that all disagreement is satanic and rebellious! It is poisonous.

It very well will be very interesting to see how all of this unfolds.....

[StillStanding]

It very well will be very interesting to see how all of this unfolds.....
Which city paper can I read about this? :)

[LaGirl]

It very well will be very interesting to see how all of this unfolds.....

yes it will.

[Truthseeker]

If you're a pastor and you feel that your son is "THE MAN" to take over the church, the church body will know he's "THE MAN" too!

If the church body feels differently, then obviously he is NOT the man!!!!

Pro 18:16 A man's gift maketh room for him, and bringeth him before great men.


So the church decides the man for the job?

[Carpenter]

So the church decides the man for the job?

In this particular case, the church most certainly did not decide. This situation is so out of character and unbelievable.

The city isn't what it used to be thought the demographics have changed quite a bit.

Regardless, there are some good people in a church that has tremendous legacy and it, unfortunately walked out the door the minute the Big guy stepped up to resign.

[triumphant1]

In this particular case, the church most certainly did not decide. This situation is so out of character and unbelievable.

The city isn't what it used to be thought the demographics have changed quite a bit.

Regardless, there are some good people in a church that has tremendous legacy and it, unfortunately walked out the door the minute the Big guy stepped up to resign.

OK...is this supposed mega church still in turmoil? Or is this just another trumped up mega story?

[HolyFire]

If you're a pastor and you feel that your son is "THE MAN" to take over the church, the church body will know he's "THE MAN" too!

If the church body feels differently, then obviously he is NOT the man!!!!

Pro 18:16 A man's gift maketh room for him, and bringeth him before great men.

A lot of churches have Jr as pastor, many times Jr isn't called to preach. Minister like all saints, yes. Five-fold ministry no. Sad situations. In those situations Jr usually falls on his face, takes the church charismatic or backslides.

Rarely does Jr turn his card in and admit 'i'm not called'.

[Falla39]

A lot of churches have Jr as pastor, many times Jr isn't called to preach. Minister like all saints, yes. Five-fold ministry no. Sad situations. In those situations Jr usually falls on his face, takes the church charismatic or backslides.

Rarely does Jr turn his card in and admit 'i'm not called'.

Jesus said that every plant his Father did not plant shall
be rooted up. I believe this could refer to a man, woman,
church, organization, etc.!