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CC1
08-24-2013, 10:30 PM
Tonght I went to a Tennessee Titans football preseason game with my friend AFF poster Pianoman.

As we were crossing the street and walking into the stadium there was a gauntlet of so called Christians with signs and one with a loudspeaker.

The guy with the loudspeaker addressed an older man ahead of us who was walking with to other men. the older man had a beer can in his hand and upon seeing it the "christian" said to him "thats all right. I was a drunk also at one time" followed up by "God loves you sinner!".

What an absolute jerk. Even if he sincerely believed what he said it was very counter productive to connecting with anybody about Jesus and the Gospel.

Pianoman and I observed that really the devil doesn't have to do very much overt work himself here on earth as there are plenty of people who call themselves christians who do his work for him.

No wonder people have such a bad taste in their mouth about christians.

RandyWayne
08-24-2013, 10:48 PM
That is so sad, and irritating, to hear.

One false christian can do as much or more damage than 1000 who actively oppose it.

bishoph
08-24-2013, 10:54 PM
Kind of reminds me of a Tee-shirt I saw in the window of a store in San Diego a few years ago.....it read....."Jesus, Please protect me from your followers"

Michael The Disciple
08-24-2013, 11:50 PM
Tonght I went to a Tennessee Titans football preseason game with my friend AFF poster Pianoman.

As we were crossing the street and walking into the stadium there was a gauntlet of so called Christians with signs and one with a loudspeaker.

The guy with the loudspeaker addressed an older man ahead of us who was walking with to other men. the older man had a beer can in his hand and upon seeing it the "christian" said to him "thats all right. I was a drunk also at one time" followed up by "God loves you sinner!".

What an absolute jerk. Even if he sincerely believed what he said it was very counter productive to connecting with anybody about Jesus and the Gospel.

Pianoman and I observed that really the devil doesn't have to do very much overt work himself here on earth as there are plenty of people who call themselves christians who do his work for him.

No wonder people have such a bad taste in their mouth about christians.

I have a lot of respect for Christians who witness. They are being obedient to Christ. Those who do not witness are being disobedient. Yeshua Christ called people snakes and foxes in his witnessing.

People have FORGOTTEN that a sinner CANNOT BE SAVED unless they understand they are a sinner.

It is written that Paul preached righteousness, temperance and judgment to come. Im sure there were those timid souls who were offended by such preaching.

Don't forget that as many people get saved through the preaching of the fear of God as the love of God. Also understand you will get no one saved until they admit they are a sinner. Since most young people spend 12 years in school learning God does not even exist and that right and wrong are purely subjective their conscience is not an ally to your witness.

In witnessing their conscience must be educated by truth then pricked by it. Hats off to the brave people who take Christ seriously!

Nonetheless one should employ wisdom in the sense of being led by the Spirit in their witnessing. Sometimes it may seem gentle and kind. Other times it may seem hard and offensive.

Let us not use those who maybe lack such wisdom as an excuse for our own lack of witnessing. The world is filled with people who are not saved, dying to hear the truth.

CC1
08-25-2013, 10:51 AM
Michael, if you think what I described is an effective way of witnessing I feel sorry for you and believe you are perhaps confusing old testament judges and prophets with the New Testament ministry.

While Jesus and the Apostles were bold in their preaching they did not engage in this type behavior.

Just because a man has a beer in his hand does not mean he is a drunk as this "christian" stated. The "christian" also had no way of knowing that mans status with God and called him "a sinner".

Abiding Now
08-25-2013, 12:06 PM
Mark 9:38 - 40

And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

For he that is not against us is on our part.

Michael The Disciple
08-25-2013, 01:42 PM
Mark 9:38 - 40

And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

For he that is not against us is on our part.

Yes? And?

Michael The Disciple
08-25-2013, 01:56 PM
Michael, if you think what I described is an effective way of witnessing I feel sorry for you and believe you are perhaps confusing old testament judges and prophets with the New Testament ministry.

While Jesus and the Apostles were bold in their preaching they did not engage in this type behavior.

Just because a man has a beer in his hand does mean he is a drunk as this "christian" stated. The "christian" also had no way of knowing that mans status with God and called him "a sinner".

Well I have witnessed enough to know that at least GENERALLY if the man he addressed indeed WAS a child of God he would have spoke up and identified himself as such.

I don't know how you witness but I know that unless one understands he is a sinner he cannot be saved. Most of us are a bit uncomfortable to press home that truth to other people especially to those who know nothing or very little of scripture.

How do you know what kind of behavior Christ engaged in while witnessing? He seems like he was FAR and I do mean FAR more bold than men today.

He told people they would burn in Hell if they lust after women in their hearts!

He told people if they hate not their Father, Mother, Brothers and Sisters even their own lives they could not be his disciple!

He told men they would give an account to him for every idle word they ever spoke!

He said men hated him because he testified to them their works were evil! On and on it goes.

The Church members of today are offended in the Christ of the Bible. Its no wonder they do not witness. They by and large know him not.

Abiding Now
08-25-2013, 02:44 PM
Yes? And?

It doesn't have to be done by me or EXACTLY like I would do it to be accepted.


:happydance

Michael The Disciple
08-25-2013, 03:09 PM
It doesn't have to be done by me or EXACTLY like I would do it to be accepted.


:happydance

I agree. It is CCI who is limiting what God will do through someone.

Michael The Disciple
08-25-2013, 03:12 PM
Michael, if you think what I described is an effective way of witnessing I feel sorry for you and believe you are perhaps confusing old testament judges and prophets with the New Testament ministry.

While Jesus and the Apostles were bold in their preaching they did not engage in this type behavior.

Just because a man has a beer in his hand does mean he is a drunk as this "christian" stated. The "christian" also had no way of knowing that mans status with God and called him "a sinner".

Really?:heeheehee

Nonetheless I agree with the point you are trying to make there. I have a bottle of wine in the Frig here.

CC1
08-25-2013, 03:33 PM
Really?:heeheehee

Nonetheless I agree with the point you are trying to make there. I have a bottle of wine in the Frig here.

LOL!! Thanks for pointing out I left out the word "not". I have gone back and edited my post.

CC1
08-25-2013, 03:37 PM
I stand by what I said that if any of you think what I described is a good way to witness you are warped.

Of course you witness with truth but you don't do it by assuming facts not known and not in an offensive manner.

Now if a man was clearly drunk I would have no problem identifying him as such and talking to him honestly and directly about it. But to assume that a man walking to a ball game drinking a beer is a drunk and telling him that he is one is absurd and not christian in any way shape or form.

Likewise assuming a man is a sinner without knowing him is not right. Michaels come back that he would have identified himself as a christian is also absurd. I listened to this moron and just shook my head in dismay. I certainly didn't feel a need to enlighten him that I am a christian. He was so judgmental my proclamation would have probably meant nothing to him anyway.

RandyWayne
08-25-2013, 03:40 PM
I stand by what I said that if any of you think what I described is a good way to witness you are warped.

Of course you witness with truth but you don't do it by assuming facts not known and not in an offensive manner.

Now if a man was clearly drunk I would have no problem identifying him as such and talking to him honestly and directly about it. But to assume that a man walking to a ball game drinking a beer is a drunk and telling him that he is one is absurd and not christian in any way shape or form.

Likewise assuming a man is a sinner without knowing him is not right. Michaels come back that he would have identified himself as a christian is also absurd. I listened to this moron and just shook my head in dismay. I certainly didn't feel a need to enlighten him that I am a christian. He was so judgmental my proclamation would have probably meant nothing to him anyway.

I doubt the maroons who were trying to "witness" thought that ANYONE was saved that walked by if they didn't recognize them as members of their own particular church. Come to think of it, I seem to remember having that same attitude during my stint in the you-know-what during the 80's. . . . Of course we WERE the only UPC church within a rather large area and with only 100-150 members at any time it was easy to identify the saved versus not-saved.

Jermyn Davidson
08-25-2013, 07:21 PM
Would you have been offended if the person with the bull horn just stuck with scriptures and proclaiming the Gospel?

I understand why you were irritated, but I am unsure that I would have been as irked as you appear to have been.


If the same guy was standing outside a seedy hotel and pointed to a couple and said, "Yes, I used to be a fornicator sin, but Jesus changed my life," would you be upset with the guy for accusing them of fornication?

I know I would expect for the couple to respond that they are married, if it is the case, wouldn't you?

CC1
08-25-2013, 08:04 PM
Would you have been offended if the person with the bull horn just stuck with scriptures and proclaiming the Gospel?

I understand why you were irritated, but I am unsure that I would have been as irked as you appear to have been.


If the same guy was standing outside a seedy hotel and pointed to a couple and said, "Yes, I used to be a fornicator sin, but Jesus changed my life," would you be upset with the guy for accusing them of fornication?

I know I would expect for the couple to respond that they are married, if it is the case, wouldn't you?

You have that right but I seriously doubt that would have been the case. I believe you are just being adversarial and that is also your right.

Yes I would have been just as upset if he had pointed at a couple and accused them of fornication because they were at a seedy hotel. He would have no actual knowledge of their situation. They could be married low lifes who were in sin in some way but not fornication. You are being absurd in your defense of the indefensible.

You honestly propose the notion that it is a good witnessing technique to accuse people of various sins and assume you are right unless they take the time to correct you?

Most people I know would do what I did and ignore this moron. He did not deserve any response from people. Amazing how you put the onus on people denying his accusations. I sincerely hope you are not serious.

Luke
08-25-2013, 09:30 PM
Michael, if you think what I described is an effective way of witnessing I feel sorry for you and believe you are perhaps confusing old testament judges and prophets with the New Testament ministry.

While Jesus and the Apostles were bold in their preaching they did not engage in this type behavior.

Just because a man has a beer in his hand does not mean he is a drunk as this "christian" stated. The "christian" also had no way of knowing that mans status with God and called him "a sinner".

I would say the beer in the hand was a pretty good indication of the mans status with God.

CC1
08-25-2013, 10:09 PM
I would say the beer in the hand was a pretty good indication of the mans status with God.

Do you believe the fact that he had a beer meant he was "a drunk"? If so then your response along with a couple of others on this threads makes me think old time Pentecost is even worse off than I previously thought.

A person can drink alcohol and not be a "drunk". It was not this "christian's" place to make that judgement. I can tell you that the man was clearly not inebriated. he was a 60ish man who was not loud, obnoxious, or anything else. He was just walking and talking quietly with two friends (he was directly ahead of us) when this so called chrisitian started his schtick.

You guys act like this "christian" encountered an obviously drunk man and I am upset at that. That is not the case at all.

If you agree with this method of witnessing your kind are doomed to remain a relatively tiny religious sect who does as much harm to the gospel message as satan does.

Abiding Now
08-25-2013, 10:11 PM
Titans lost, huh?


:)

RandyWayne
08-25-2013, 11:24 PM
Titans lost, huh?


:)

It's only preseason so it doesn't matter.

RandyWayne
08-25-2013, 11:25 PM
Do you believe the fact that he had a beer meant he was "a drunk"? If so then your response along with a couple of others on this threads makes me think old time Pentecost is even worse off than I previously thought.

A person can drink alcohol and not be a "drunk". It was not this "christian's" place to make that judgement. I can tell you that the man was clearly not inebriated. he was a 60ish man who was not loud, obnoxious, or anything else. He was just walking and talking quietly with two friends (he was directly ahead of us) when this so called chrisitian started his schtick.

You guys act like this "christian" encountered an obviously drunk man and I am upset at that. That is not the case at all.

If you agree with this method of witnessing your kind are doomed to remain a relatively tiny religious sect who does as much harm to the gospel message as satan does.

A couple of Fred Phelps can do as much damage as a ten thousand ACLU lawyers.

Jermyn Davidson
08-26-2013, 12:21 AM
You have that right but I seriously doubt that would have been the case. I believe you are just being adversarial and that is also your right.

Yes I would have been just as upset if he had pointed at a couple and accused them of fornication because they were at a seedy hotel. He would have no actual knowledge of their situation. They could be married low lifes who were in sin in some way but not fornication. You are being absurd in your defense of the indefensible.

You honestly propose the notion that it is a good witnessing technique to accuse people of various sins and assume you are right unless they take the time to correct you?

Most people I know would do what I did and ignore this moron. He did not deserve any response from people. Amazing how you put the onus on people denying his accusations. I sincerely hope you are not serious.



Adversarial probably would not be the most accurate word to describe my intents.

While I am all for bullhorn witnessing, it does not do the Gospel any good for people to "prophesy" about or "read" people and be wrong. That would irk me too, brother.

Thanks for helping me to better understand you.

Nitehawk013
08-26-2013, 04:59 AM
The man had a single beer so that equates to full blown alcoholic, low life, probably wife beating, child abusing, porn addicted sinner to many "Christians" today. After all, only outright and complete prohibition of any and all alcohol (except in Nyquil) would be acceptable to Jesus (who provided fresh booze for a wedding party) according to modern American Christians, especially OPs.

Michael The Disciple
08-26-2013, 06:03 AM
Let me put it a different way. I do not condone foolishness in street witnessing or any other kind. Having said that I know how hard it is to witness for Christ. I have been on the streets about 35 years talking to and preaching to the lost about Christ.

My reaction is to the idea that the guy witnessing was a "jerk" and doing a lot of work for the devil. My experience in general is that unless one loves the Lord he probably is not going to risk his life out on the streets calling sinners to repentance.

You sure wont find many of todays modern Christians out there talking to sinners.

StillStanding
08-26-2013, 06:27 AM
Thanks, CC1 for starting this thread! BTW, I'm now StillStanding, not Pianoman anymore! Ha!

First off, the guy had a bullhorn blasting five feet from us. We were walking up to the stadium in a group that was in a good mood anticipating the Titans game. He addressed the entire group as "sinners" and then keyed in on the guy with the beer. When we FINALLY were able to cross the street, he blared thru his bullhorn, " God bless you, sinner!" There was an unanimous rolling of the eyes. The guy with the beer told his buddies, "Can you believe that?"

I'm all for witnessing, but I can assured you that this type of "soul winning" did more damage than it helped. We saw three or four other people with bullhorns and signs with derogatory messages about "sinners". I'm sure that they all felt justified that they were doing the work of The Lord, but as CC1 mentioned, they were helping the devil out by making Christianity look so crass and judgmental.

Jack Shephard
08-26-2013, 12:08 PM
CC1, Pastor Phil Goldsboerry said yesterday at church that basically, 'Church, or a church service, isn't bad or harmful, but people can sometimes make it offensive.' That statement is so true. Church, the service, on Sunday's may not be an offensive matter on the surface, but the church, us, can make church, the service, very offensive to people, even offensive to believers.

Jack Shephard
08-26-2013, 12:12 PM
Thanks, CC1 for starting this thread! BTW, I'm now StillStanding, not Pianoman anymore! Ha!

First off, the guy had a bullhorn blasting five feet from us. We were walking up to the stadium in a group that was in a good mood anticipating the Titans game. He addressed the entire group as "sinners" and then keyed in on the guy with the beer. When we FINALLY were able to cross the street, he blared thru his bullhorn, " God bless you, sinner!" There was an unanimous rolling of the eyes. The guy with the beer told his buddies, "Can you believe that?"

I'm all for witnessing, but I can assured you that this type of "soul winning" did more damage than it helped. We saw three or four other people with bullhorns and signs with derogatory messages about "sinners". I'm sure that they all felt justified that they were doing the work of The Lord, but as CC1 mentioned, they were helping the devil out by making Christianity look so crass and judgmental.

PM or SS, I think it is a laughable thing that these type of people think this is a "soul-winning" method. It's not though. It's a "soul-soothing" method for them only. It make them feel good about themselves by feeling bad for others. I don't get how that mindset can possibly be a valid one, but somehow to some people it is.

If I were you or CC1 I'd have responded with, "Jesus loves you too even though you're a jerk, a judge and just plain rude." If it were me I'd have said something far worse than that. :happydance

Ferd
08-26-2013, 01:37 PM
i hope they were baptists.

navygoat1998
08-26-2013, 01:38 PM
i hope they were baptists.

:happydance

Ferd
08-26-2013, 03:50 PM
:happydance

heee hee.... or AOG?


LOLOLOL!


seriously if I had been part of that crowd and heard that, I just might have walked up to the guy and asked if he had recived the HG since he believed. then when he said waaaachuuuutalkingbout? I just might have launched into You are being disobedient. You need to get baptized right, talk in tongues!


get'em all worked up!


LOLOLOL!

navygoat1998
08-26-2013, 04:01 PM
heee hee.... or AOG?


LOLOLOL!


seriously if I had been part of that crowd and heard that, I just might have walked up to the guy and asked if he had recived the HG since he believed. then when he said waaaachuuuutalkingbout? I just might have launched into You are being disobedient. You need to get baptized right, talk in tongues!


get'em all worked up!


LOLOLOL!

That sounds like something I would say to him :heeheehee.

Christ told us to be as wise as serpents and gentile as a dove.

If he is AG he is rouge :happydance

RandyWayne
08-26-2013, 04:12 PM
That sounds like something I would say to him :heeheehee.

Christ told us to be as wise as serpents and gentile as a dove.

If he is AG he is rouge :happydance

Our old AG church (mine for a few years and my wifes her whole life) had elements of that. But mainly they were all about legislating the when, how's, why's, and wheres of what a married couple were to do sexually. Apparently an area our fellow poster Esaias, feels needs to be addressed as well.

navygoat1998
08-26-2013, 04:38 PM
Our old AG church (mine for a few years and my wifes her whole life) had elements of that. But mainly they were all about legislating the when, how's, why's, and wheres of what a married couple were to do sexually. Apparently an area our fellow poster Esaias, feels needs to be addressed as well.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSRSwkQYRdcriRB3IV2PFf1xQD0rPE5M HoeKy_YM7Jn1DzGWi_z

Luke
08-26-2013, 06:16 PM
Do you believe the fact that he had a beer meant he was "a drunk"? If so then your response along with a couple of others on this threads makes me think old time Pentecost is even worse off than I previously thought.

A person can drink alcohol and not be a "drunk". It was not this "christian's" place to make that judgement. I can tell you that the man was clearly not inebriated. he was a 60ish man who was not loud, obnoxious, or anything else. He was just walking and talking quietly with two friends (he was directly ahead of us) when this so called chrisitian started his schtick.

You guys act like this "christian" encountered an obviously drunk man and I am upset at that. That is not the case at all.

If you agree with this method of witnessing your kind are doomed to remain a relatively tiny religious sect who does as much harm to the gospel message as satan does.

I never said that the man was a drunk I simply stated that if he was drinking beer that was a pretty good sign as to his salvation or lack there of.

houston
08-26-2013, 06:19 PM
I never said that the man was a drunk I simply stated that if he was drinking beer that was a pretty good sign as to his salvation or lack there of.

Only in the U.S.A.

Luke
08-26-2013, 06:21 PM
Only in the U.S.A.

I would beg to differ with you there because I would add heaven to that list.

houston
08-26-2013, 06:32 PM
I would beg to differ with you there because I would add heaven to that list.

Ignorance.

CC1
08-26-2013, 06:36 PM
Titans lost, huh?


:)

The Titans beat the Atlanta Falcons 27-16!!!!

CC1
08-26-2013, 06:47 PM
PM or SS, I think it is a laughable thing that these type of people think this is a "soul-winning" method. It's not though. It's a "soul-soothing" method for them only. It make them feel good about themselves by feeling bad for others. I don't get how that mindset can possibly be a valid one, but somehow to some people it is.

If I were you or CC1 I'd have responded with, "Jesus loves you too even though you're a jerk, a judge and just plain rude." If it were me I'd have said something far worse than that. :happydance

I love this advice and wish I had been quick enough on my feet to have thought of this. However I was out on a beautiful evening with a friend to enjoy a football game so I just kept on walking shaking my head in wonder at the ignorance.

I also think Ferd's advice was good in that I could have turned the tables on them and gone all UPC and demanded to know if they had been baptized in Jesus name and spoke in tongues. Then if they said now I could have loudly condemned them to hell.

RandyWayne
08-26-2013, 07:44 PM
I love this advice and wish I had been quick enough on my feet to have thought of this. However I was out on a beautiful evening with a friend to enjoy a football game so I just kept on walking shaking my head in wonder at the ignorance.

I also think Ferd's advice was good in that I could have turned the tables on them and gone all UPC and demanded to know if they had been baptized in Jesus name and spoke in tongues. Then if they said now I could have loudly condemned them to hell.

You could have also loudly asked if their wives cut their hair, looked like a harlot, and/or wore MENS's apparel?

Luke
08-26-2013, 09:00 PM
Ignorance.

Really please enlighten me as to what it is that i am not aware of since as you put it there is some knowledge that I lack. Where have made my mistake Biblically speaking?

Timmy
08-27-2013, 08:19 AM
That is so sad, and irritating, to hear.

One false christian can do as much or more damage than 1000 who actively oppose it.

False Christian?

Timmy
08-27-2013, 08:20 AM
I have a lot of respect for Christians who witness. They are being obedient to Christ. Those who do not witness are being disobedient. Yeshua Christ called people snakes and foxes in his witnessing.

People have FORGOTTEN that a sinner CANNOT BE SAVED unless they understand they are a sinner.

It is written that Paul preached righteousness, temperance and judgment to come. Im sure there were those timid souls who were offended by such preaching.

Don't forget that as many people get saved through the preaching of the fear of God as the love of God. Also understand you will get no one saved until they admit they are a sinner. Since most young people spend 12 years in school learning God does not even exist and that right and wrong are purely subjective their conscience is not an ally to your witness.

In witnessing their conscience must be educated by truth then pricked by it. Hats off to the brave people who take Christ seriously!

Nonetheless one should employ wisdom in the sense of being led by the Spirit in their witnessing. Sometimes it may seem gentle and kind. Other times it may seem hard and offensive.

Let us not use those who maybe lack such wisdom as an excuse for our own lack of witnessing. The world is filled with people who are not saved, dying to hear the truth.

Did the fellow use God's guidance and wisdom in telling the sinner he was a sinner and that God loves him?

Timmy
08-27-2013, 08:26 AM
Really please enlighten me as to what it is that i am not aware of since as you put it there is some knowledge that I lack. Where have made my mistake Biblically speaking?

Ooh! Ooh! Let me!

Here's your mistake, Biblically speaking: there is no scripture that shows any correlation between drinking and one's status with God.

You're welcome! :D

Luke
08-27-2013, 12:35 PM
Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Proverbs 23:29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?

30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.

34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.

Isaiah 5:11
Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!

22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:

Habakkuk 2:15
Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

houston
08-27-2013, 01:37 PM
No one approved of being drunk.

NEXT>>>

Luke
08-27-2013, 02:05 PM
No one approved of being drunk.

NEXT>>>

I do believe that some of those passages mention more that just being drunk. Allow me to point them out.

Pro.23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

Dont look at it.

Habakkuk 2:15
Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

Dont offer it to anyone.

Michael The Disciple
08-27-2013, 02:15 PM
I do believe that some of those passages mention more that just being drunk. Allow me to point them out.

Pro.23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

Dont look at it.

Habakkuk 2:15
Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

Dont offer it to anyone.

Paul the apostle told Timothy to use no longer water but a little wine for his stomachs sake. If the rest of first and second Timothy is for us this is too. My former Pastor Delbert Havens said the Evangelists gave him a funny look when they saw he kept a jug in his refrigerator. I have one in mine as we speak.

Luke
08-27-2013, 02:22 PM
Paul the apostle told Timothy to use no longer water but a little wine for his stomachs sake. If the rest of first and second Timothy is for us this is too. My former Pastor Delbert Havens said the Evangelists gave him a funny look when they saw he kept a jug in his refrigerator. I have one in mine as we speak.

That is talking about medicine so i agree take medicine for when your sick.

1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

TGBTG
08-27-2013, 02:41 PM
I do believe that some of those passages mention more that just being drunk. Allow me to point them out.

Pro.23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

Dont look at it.

Habakkuk 2:15
Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

Dont offer it to anyone.

Deut 14
22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

23 And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always.

24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the Lord thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the Lord thy God hath blessed thee:

25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose:

26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household

Not just wine only, but strong drink too...:thumbsup

TGBTG
08-27-2013, 02:43 PM
That is talking about medicine so i agree take medicine for when your sick.

1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Wine = Medicine???

Funny that you take wine in Proverbs 23 to mean wine, but in 1 Tim 5:23, wine means medicine...

Luke
08-27-2013, 03:13 PM
Wine = Medicine???

Funny that you take wine in Proverbs 23 to mean wine, but in 1 Tim 5:23, wine means medicine...

By takeing the verse to mean what it literally says that is the obivous conclusion that one would come to. Look at the reason that paul gives for the advice that he is offering:

1 Timothy 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

if we take this to mean what it says it is paul telling Timothy to use ( not indulge) a little wine because of stomach problems and for his often infirmities (sickness ) this does not approve of social drinking but for taking medicine.

Also if i remember my greek correctly the word used here is oynos which can be either new or fermented wine. (I might be wrong on that.)

CC1
08-27-2013, 03:39 PM
Oh goody. It has been a long time since I have seen old time Pentecostals try to spin that tale that the wine that was ok to drink was just grape juice and not real wine. I feel that one coming on any minute now!

If a person takes an honest look at the scriptures pertaining to wine as a whole and in context it is clear the condemnation is for drunkenness, not drinking wine.

Having said that I personally can't stand wine. Hate the taste.

RandyWayne
08-27-2013, 03:40 PM
Oh goody. It has been a long time since I have seen old time Pentecostals try to spin that tale that the wine that was ok to drink was just grape juice and not real wine. I feel that one coming on any minute now!

Ya, that argument is nearly as classic is the explanation that the reason Roman soldiers were able to pluck out whiskers from Jesus is that he hadn't been able to shave for a few days.

RandyWayne
08-27-2013, 03:42 PM
Oh goody. It has been a long time since I have seen old time Pentecostals try to spin that tale that the wine that was ok to drink was just grape juice and not real wine. I feel that one coming on any minute now!

If a person takes an honest look at the scriptures pertaining to wine as a whole and in context it is clear the condemnation is for drunkenness, not drinking wine.

Having said that I personally can't stand wine. Hate the taste.

Thus God allowed man to invent whiskey, vodka, bourbon, and tequila!

CC1
08-27-2013, 03:44 PM
Ya, that argument is nearly as classic is the explanation that the reason Roman soldiers were able to pluck out whiskers from Jesus is that he hadn't been able to shave for a few days.

In all fairness if he had an electric razor the utility companies were notoriously unreliable in those days and electrical outages were widespread.:icecream

Luke
08-27-2013, 04:05 PM
Thus God allowed man to invent whiskey, vodka, bourbon, and tequila!

Yes He also allowed man to make meth, herione, cocaine, porn, houses of prostitution...... the list could go on and on but i am sure we would all agree that just because God allows man to make something that does not mean He is ok with it.

Luke
08-27-2013, 04:13 PM
Oh goody. It has been a long time since I have seen old time Pentecostals try to spin that tale that the wine that was ok to drink was just grape juice and not real wine. I feel that one coming on any minute now!

If a person takes an honest look at the scriptures pertaining to wine as a whole and in context it is clear the condemnation is for drunkenness, not drinking wine.

Having said that I personally can't stand wine. Hate the taste.

I guess that if you buy it and or make it with your eyes closed then either pour it into a container with your eyes closed or turn the bottle ( whatever the wine is in) up to your mouth with your eyes closed then you could drink it and not disobey the following scripture.

Hopefully you dont sit it on a counter beside anything that might be poison.

Pro.23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

If you somehow manage to do all of the afore mentioned things with your eyes closed you had better be by yourself or atleast dont offer it to anyone or then you are violating the following scripture.

Habakkuk 2:15
Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

The Lemon
08-27-2013, 04:59 PM
Sure.......Christians shouldn't drink...right...just like they should not go to the buffet line for the third time.

Seriously, there are many things preachers love to preach on, and some others not so much,.. Oh well.

RandyWayne
08-27-2013, 05:15 PM
Habakkuk 2:15
Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

The issue is that you look at the verse as it appear above. You pretty much stop reading once you come to the end of the bolded.

However, it is meant to be looked at THIS way (below).

Habakkuk 2:15
Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

It is called 'context' and divining the intended meaning of the verse.

houston
08-27-2013, 05:38 PM
So white wine is ok!!!! Got it.

RandyWayne
08-27-2013, 05:56 PM
So white wine is ok!!!! Got it.

. . . . Along with whiskey, bourbon, vodka, and tequila. :)

TGBTG
08-27-2013, 08:37 PM
Deut 14
22 Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

23 And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always.

24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the Lord thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the Lord thy God hath blessed thee:

25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose:

26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household

Not just wine only, but strong drink too...:thumbsup

Luke, what's your explanation of Deut 14:26...Not just wine only, but strong drink too...:happydance

TGBTG
08-27-2013, 08:38 PM
Ya, that argument is nearly as classic is the explanation that the reason Roman soldiers were able to pluck out whiskers from Jesus is that he hadn't been able to shave for a few days.
:spit

CC1
08-27-2013, 08:56 PM
I think my thread has gotten off course! This is not a thread about the biblical stance of drinking wine. If it was it would be very short because clearly the bible does not have a prohibition against it (despite some reinventing wine as medicine).

Timmy
08-27-2013, 10:58 PM
:killinme

Timmy
08-27-2013, 10:59 PM
(Just a general laugh at the thread. I find it quite amusing. Just sayin'. ;))

Luke
08-28-2013, 02:03 PM
Luke, what's your explanation of Deut 14:26...Not just wine only, but strong drink too...:happydance

To be honest i will have to admit that i have never noticed that verse before though i am sure that i have read it. That being said i also cannot take one obscure scripture and by it discount and passover all other sriptures that deal with the same topic. As i can find and reference multiple passages that condemn both wine and strong drink for nazerites, priest ( when in the service and prescence of the Lord) kings, and even just the common man it would be faulty hermenutics to take the one (out of 20 that i found) obscure passage that deals with strong drink in a seemingly ok way and by it nullify all of the warnings and woes against it.

TGBTG
08-28-2013, 02:24 PM
To be honest i will have to admit that i have never noticed that verse before though i am sure that i have read it. That being said i also cannot take one obscure scripture and by it discount and passover all other sriptures that deal with the same topic. As i can find and reference multiple passages that condemn both wine and strong drink for nazerites, priest ( when in the service and prescence of the Lord) kings, and even just the common man it would be faulty hermenutics to take the one (out of 20 that i found) obscure passage that deals with strong drink in a seemingly ok way and by it nullify all of the warnings and woes against it.

First off, every verse you have posted in this thread has had to do with drunkeness.

Isaiah 5:11
Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!

Habakkuk 2:15
Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness

Proverbs 23:29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
(Reading the rest of that scripture in Prov 23 actually describes a drunken fellow)

Yes, nazarites and priest when in service were not allowed to drink, BUT, the common Israelite was no where forbidden

That one verse in Deut 14:26 (if you believe in bible inerrancy) should be enough to show that wine and STRONG DRINK (my emphasis on strong drink..lol) are ok. But you shouldn't go against your conviction

Also, in Eph 5:18 "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit" shows Christians should not have excess wine. Now, how can Paul be warning against excess wine if the Ephesians were not to even drink wine at all?

Luke
08-28-2013, 02:26 PM
The issue is that you look at the verse as it appear above. You pretty much stop reading once you come to the end of the bolded.

However, it is meant to be looked at THIS way (below).

Habakkuk 2:15
Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

It is called 'context' and divining the intended meaning of the verse.

I agree context is king and looking at scripture as a whole is important. I am glad that you pointed out what i had inadvertantly looked oved namely that both this scripture condemns both the offering of intoxicating beverages to a person and the making of a person drunk so as to look upon their nakedness.

Luke
08-28-2013, 02:57 PM
First off, every verse you have posted in this thread has had to do with drunkeness.

Isaiah 5:11
Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!

Habakkuk 2:15
Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness

Proverbs 23:29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
(Reading the rest of that scripture in Prov 23 actually describes a drunken fellow)

Yes, nazarites and priest when in service were not allowed to drink, BUT, the common Israelite was no where forbidden

That one verse in Deut 14:26 (if you believe in bible inerrancy) should be enough to show that wine and STRONG DRINK (my emphasis on strong drink..lol) are ok. But you shouldn't go against your conviction

Also, in Eph 5:18 "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit" shows Christians should not have excess wine. Now, how can Paul be warning against excess wine if the Ephesians were not to even drink wine at all?


Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

No drunkeness here.

Pro. 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

If this one is followed it will keep you from drunkeness. Therefore this one is prevenitive care.

Habakkuk 2:15
Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

This deals with simply offering it to someone and it deals with getting someone else drunk.
I am a strong believer in biblical inerrancy and did not say that verse was in error, rather i stated that one verse should not be used to discout the clear teaching of multiple clear passages.

Here are some examples:

Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

If take this one verse and make it a stand alone passage then you and i and all others that claim to be saved had better start handleing snakes and healing everyone that is sick and possibley puting ourselves in places where we could drink deadly things.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Does this passage teach a salvation of works in that if a man acts right and does right he is accepted of God apart from faith and repentace?

1 Corinthians 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

If we pull this one scripture out then i guess the mormons are correct in saying that we can baptize relatives of dead people and they can be given a second chance.

These are just a few passages that show the danger of pulling one scripture out and discounting all other passages that deal with the same topic.

As to vyour statement regarding Eph 5:18 and attempting to make it say that a little bit was ok just not in excess. If that is the true meaning then what of the passage that says the bishop is to be the husband of one wife does that mena that all the other men could practice polygamy?

RandyWayne
08-28-2013, 03:14 PM
I agree context is king and looking at scripture as a whole is important. I am glad that you pointed out what i had inadvertantly looked oved namely that both this scripture condemns both the offering of intoxicating beverages to a person and the making of a person drunk so as to look upon their nakedness.

No it doesn't. It is saying don't do one thing in order to do the other. To make a modern day analogy, it would be like saying "Do not buy that girl drink after drink so you can spend the night with her!". The person is NOT saying do not buy her a drink, but rather is saying do not buy her one for the obvious ulterior motives.

TGBTG
08-28-2013, 03:38 PM
Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

No drunkeness here.

Pro. 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

If this one is followed it will keep you from drunkeness. Therefore this one is prevenitive care.

Habakkuk 2:15
Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

This deals with simply offering it to someone and it deals with getting someone else drunk.
I am a strong believer in biblical inerrancy and did not say that verse was in error, rather i stated that one verse should not be used to discout the clear teaching of multiple clear passages.

Here are some examples:

Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

If take this one verse and make it a stand alone passage then you and i and all others that claim to be saved had better start handleing snakes and healing everyone that is sick and possibley puting ourselves in places where we could drink deadly things.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Does this passage teach a salvation of works in that if a man acts right and does right he is accepted of God apart from faith and repentace?

1 Corinthians 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

If we pull this one scripture out then i guess the mormons are correct in saying that we can baptize relatives of dead people and they can be given a second chance.

These are just a few passages that show the danger of pulling one scripture out and discounting all other passages that deal with the same topic.
We can go back and forth all day on whether wine is totally prohibited or not. Jesus even made the stuff, but that's not enough to show it's ok. So, there no point pushing it.

Why would drinking wine be even prohibited when the body already naturally produces alcohol? oh well...

As to vyour statement regarding Eph 5:18 and attempting to make it say that a little bit was ok just not in excess. If that is the true meaning
What is the true meaning of the verse?

then what of the passage that says the bishop is to be the husband of one wife does that mena that all the other men could practice polygamy?
Well, David and OT people practised polygamy, right? (Now before someone comes along to crucify me for advocating polygamy..lol), when did the practice of polygamy stop? After Jesus' resurrection? 70AD (for my preterist pals..lol)? Who announced "no more polygamy?..lol"

In any case, if you believe Paul's statement in 1 Tim 3 was about Bishops not being polygamous, then yes, that statement would imply other men were allowed to be polygamous. Else, what's the point of differentiating between the Bishop and other men if they were all to practise the same thing? (ofcourse, this assumes Paul was talking about polygamy...;)


CC1, we hijacked your thread....:uhoh
:bolt)

Luke
08-28-2013, 04:20 PM
We can go back and forth all day on whether wine is totally prohibited or not. Jesus even made the stuff, but that's not enough to show it's ok. So, there no point pushing it.
What Jesus made was not fermented unless you believe that He gave what would cause women to have miscarriges and other birth abnormalities. Also He supplied the missing ingredient in a prolonged drunken stupor.


Why would drinking wine be even prohibited when the body already naturally produces alcohol? oh well....

Our bodies produce alot of things that we probably should not eat or drink.


What is the true meaning of the verse? A command to be filled with the Spirit.


Well, David and OT people practised polygamy, right? (Now before someone comes along to crucify me for advocating polygamy..lol), when did the practice of polygamy stop? After Jesus' resurrection? 70AD (for my preterist pals..lol)? Who announced "no more polygamy?..lol"

They also practiced keeping concubines and david also practised murder once.


In any case, if you believe Paul's statement in 1 Tim 3 was about Bishops not being polygamous, then yes, that statement would imply other men were allowed to be polygamous. Else, what's the point of differentiating between the Bishop and other men if they were all to practise the same thing? (ofcourse, this assumes Paul was talking about polygamy...;)"



THat is my point if i take a scripture that deals with a topic and pull it away from others that deal with the same topic i came believe some strange stuff lime polygamy being ok. ( as a side note i believe he was dealing with divorce and remarrige)


CC1, we hijacked your thread....:uhoh
:bolt)

LOL

houston
08-28-2013, 05:40 PM
Well, alrighty. Jesus served Welch's.

KWSS1976
08-28-2013, 05:44 PM
I will be the first to sin on the wine...lol seeing how this winery is within walking distance of my house...and yes temptaion does get the best of me...

http://www.landryvineyards.com/

Luke
08-28-2013, 09:18 PM
No it doesn't. It is saying don't do one thing in order to do the other. To make a modern day analogy, it would be like saying "Do not buy that girl drink after drink so you can spend the night with her!". The person is NOT saying do not buy her a drink, but rather is saying do not buy her one for the obvious ulterior motives.

You are overlooking the conjunction that is there "AND"

Habakkuk 2:15 Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

CC1
08-29-2013, 06:40 AM
The only good thing about my thread being hijacked into a wine thread is that I no longer have some people trying to defend the crass and idiotic guy we encountered "witnessing".

Timmy
08-29-2013, 09:44 AM
The only good thing about my thread being hijacked into a wine thread is that I no longer have some people trying to defend the crass and idiotic guy we encountered "witnessing".

Well, I didn't defend him exactly. But I did ask some questions (not you specifically), and there were no answers, that I can see. So, bump:


That is so sad, and irritating, to hear.

One false christian can do as much or more damage than 1000 who actively oppose it.


False Christian?


. . .

Let us not use those who maybe lack such wisdom as an excuse for our own lack of witnessing. The world is filled with people who are not saved, dying to hear the truth.


Did the fellow use God's guidance and wisdom in telling the sinner he was a sinner and that God loves him?

Jack Shephard
08-30-2013, 04:10 PM
The only good thing about my thread being hijacked into a wine thread is that I no longer have some people trying to defend the crass and idiotic guy we encountered "witnessing".

No "wining" from you about that, right?