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The Lemon
08-27-2013, 10:02 AM
Just throwing out a question that I know has been asked and talked about on here probably a zillion times but at any rate here goes:

Saw a post today from a friend and minister and her was preaching (or ranting) about how your sins can only be remmitted if when you are baptized the preacher proclaims the name of Jesus.

Further more - he went on to say if you were baptized in the titles that you were decieved by the devil and that you would reside in the lake of fire if you are not baptized "correctly".

That is the jist at any rate. Now - I am not starting this so we all can berate one another on this subject - that said, my initial question after I read his post was - "Do we really believe that God sends people to Hell for all eternity over a technicality?"

Now, if I baptize, I do do it in the name of Jesus, and would personally not do it any other way - but that being said, I have a serious problem with grouping folks as unsaved and hellbound over what was or was not said at the moment of baptism.

Call me a coward, but it is a bit of a gray area to me and I was astonished at how bold and matter of fact this preacher friend was putting it in his post - I kinda scratched my head on that one..

Pliny
08-27-2013, 10:43 AM
There is one gospel. Eph. 4:5
Anyone preaching anything other than that one gospel is accursed. Gal. 1:8-9
We are to earnestly contend for that faith... Jude 1:3
That faith was once for all delivered to the saints Jude 1:3

That faith was delivered on the day of Pentecost when Peter and the other Disciples fulfilled the command of Christ.

If we are to do everything in the name of Christ then baptism is indeed a "deed" that must be done in Jesus' name. Col. 3:17

There is no other way but through Jesus Christ.

houston
08-27-2013, 10:49 AM
Col 3:17. Really? Do you say "in Jesus' name" when you turn on the light switch? Well, maybe if you're religious.

Col 3:17 is not about vocalizing Jesus' name. He is saying to do everything as unto the Lord.

kclee4jc
08-27-2013, 10:53 AM
We don't have the authority to reduce what God has said to a technicality.

Would you call God's command that priesthood only touch the ark a technicality.
Apparently God didnt consider it such because the Bible says that "the anger of the Lord was kindled and against Uzzah: and God smote him there for his error" because of his well intentioned disobedience.

How about the specifics of offering incense in the tabernacle? Technicality?
Scripture says that "Fire went out from the Lord, and devoured" Nadab and Abihu because they brought strange fire to offer before the Lord.

How about Moses striking the rock rather than speaking to it as commanded? Just a technicality right? Nope...it's what disqualified him from entering into the land God had promised!

kclee4jc
08-27-2013, 11:01 AM
Furthermore..Scripture calls those who preach "another Gospel" "accursed".
meaning doomed to destruction
Those who cease to preach the necessity of Apostolic New Birth bring destruction upon themselves.
I know its old hat. I know its been said a thousand times.
That doesnt make all of the above any less true. And the ability to come up with new arguments does not validate heresy.

Pliny
08-27-2013, 11:04 AM
We don't have the authority to reduce what God has said to a technicality.

Would you call God's command that priesthood only touch the ark a tecnicality.
Apparently God didnt consider it such because the Bible says that "the anger of the Lord was kindled and against Uzzah: and God smote him there for his error" because of his well intentioned disobedience.

How about the specifics of offering incense in the tabernacle? Technicality?
Scripture says that "Fire went out from the Lord, and devoured" Nadab and Abihu because they brought strange fire to offer before the Lord.

How about Moses striking the rock rather than speaking to it as commanded? Just a technicality right? Nope...it's what disqualified him from entering into the land God had promised!

Good points.

Pliny
08-27-2013, 11:05 AM
Col 3:17. Really? Do you say "in Jesus' name" when you turn on the light switch? Well, maybe if you're religious.

Col 3:17 is not about vocalizing Jesus' name. He is saying to do everything as unto the Lord.

You must truly be a blissful person...

houston
08-27-2013, 11:10 AM
You must truly be a blissful person...

I apologize. I am very sorry...





...that you don't understand what you read.

NotforSale
08-27-2013, 11:11 AM
Just throwing out a question that I know has been asked and talked about on here probably a zillion times but at any rate here goes:

Saw a post today from a friend and minister and her was preaching (or ranting) about how your sins can only be remmitted if when you are baptized the preacher proclaims the name of Jesus.

Further more - he went on to say if you were baptized in the titles that you were decieved by the devil and that you would reside in the lake of fire if you are not baptized "correctly".

That is the jist at any rate. Now - I am not starting this so we all can berate one another on this subject - that said, my initial question after I read his post was - "Do we really believe that God sends people to Hell for all eternity over a technicality?"

Now, if I baptize, I do do it in the name of Jesus, and would personally not do it any other way - but that being said, I have a serious problem with grouping folks as unsaved and hellbound over what was or was not said at the moment of baptism.

Call me a coward, but it is a bit of a gray area to me and I was astonished at how bold and matter of fact this preacher friend was putting it in his post - I kinda scratched my head on that one..

Thank God, you are looking outside the BOX! :thumbsup

kclee4jc
08-27-2013, 11:13 AM
Thank God, you are looking outside the BOX! :thumbsup

Regretfully, you are looking outside the BOOK..

Pliny
08-27-2013, 11:18 AM
I am very sorry...


On this we agree. :happydance

The Lemon
08-27-2013, 11:21 AM
I am just trying to ask a question and understand full well the Apostolic viewpoint - I did not roll out of bed into church yesterday.

Even Jeff Arnold will tell you that the gospel is not ACTS 2:38 - it can be stated that it is the response but it certainly is not the gospel.

I am also friends with men like Chester Wright who will not take the position of sending AG folks to hell over the titles baptism. He will not emphatically state that he knows they are saved, but he also will not state they are not. when he and I talked he simply stated "I hope so" - this is someone who is invited to preach at many "trinitarian" pentecostal churches.

The only thing I find hard to grasp is taking a hard line stance on this - Cornelieus may have been taught more truth, but was still considered a man mighty in the scriptures. Like I said, I am not waffling on how I would baptize, just curious on the absolute dogmatic approach....

Maybe I should have kept it to myself...

Pliny
08-27-2013, 11:30 AM
Baptism is in FACT part of the gospel.
The Philippian jailer was told the gospel and was immediately baptized.

Repeating a command is NOT the same thing as obeying a command. John said:
1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
1Jn 2:2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,

Sins are washed away by calling upon the name not the titles.
We are baptized into HIM not THEM (Rom. 6).
Sins are remitted by the name.

I always find it amazing that some will pray in Jesus' name.
Some will cast out devils in Jesus' name.
Some will heal the sick in Jesus' name.
etc.

But refuse to use the name in baptism.

Acts 2:38 is as much part of the gospel as the cross.

DanShaf
08-27-2013, 11:36 AM
The Apostles in the book of Acts took a hardline stance..Some things are absolutely absolute. We might be able to discuss whether or not your sleeves need to be below your elbow,but if you cannot hold fast to the Doctrine of Baptism as taught by the scriptures,then please let someone else do the preaching,teaching,baptising!

houston
08-27-2013, 11:37 AM
Sins are not forgiven at baptism. Acts 2:38 is not a part of the gospel.

houston
08-27-2013, 11:38 AM
The Apostles in the book of Acts took a hardline stance..Some things are absolutely absolute. We might be able to discuss whether or not your sleeves need to be below your elbow,but if you cannot hold fast to the Doctrine of Baptism as taught by the scriptures,then please let someone else do the preaching,teaching,baptising!

Where is this hardline stance?

Pliny
08-27-2013, 11:46 AM
Sins are not forgiven at baptism. Acts 2:38 is not a part of the gospel.

Remission of sins has everything to do with the gospel.
And sins are forgiven/remitted by baptism in Jesus' name. :nod

Ignorance is bliss and some people are exceedingly blissful.

houston
08-27-2013, 11:48 AM
Remission of sins has everything to do with the gospel.
And sins are forgiven/remitted by baptism in Jesus' name. :nod

Ignorance is bliss and some people are exceedingly blissful.

It is sad that you believe so much false doctrine.

seekerman
08-27-2013, 11:58 AM
There is no other way but through Jesus Christ.

Then why do some folks plot the route through someone in addition to Jesus Christ, i.e., the saving path of a man performing the baptismal ritual 'correctly'.....the oneness Pentecostal preacher?

The route to having one's sins remitted in some oneness Pentecostal teachings is really no different than the roman catholic view. There are many romanist practices in most Christian sects today, including the oneness Pentecostal (circa 1913) sect.

Aquila
08-27-2013, 11:59 AM
Just throwing out a question that I know has been asked and talked about on here probably a zillion times but at any rate here goes:

Saw a post today from a friend and minister and her was preaching (or ranting) about how your sins can only be remmitted if when you are baptized the preacher proclaims the name of Jesus.

Further more - he went on to say if you were baptized in the titles that you were decieved by the devil and that you would reside in the lake of fire if you are not baptized "correctly".

That is the jist at any rate. Now - I am not starting this so we all can berate one another on this subject - that said, my initial question after I read his post was - "Do we really believe that God sends people to Hell for all eternity over a technicality?"

Now, if I baptize, I do do it in the name of Jesus, and would personally not do it any other way - but that being said, I have a serious problem with grouping folks as unsaved and hellbound over what was or was not said at the moment of baptism.

Call me a coward, but it is a bit of a gray area to me and I was astonished at how bold and matter of fact this preacher friend was putting it in his post - I kinda scratched my head on that one..

I will say that many are not baptized in a "biblical" manner and encourage that they follow the Apostolic pattern as found in Scripture. However, God alone is the judge of the heart and soul of the individual.

seekerman
08-27-2013, 12:00 PM
Acts 2:38 is as much part of the gospel as the cross.

This is a very good example of the mindset of oneness Pentecostalism which was presented in Thomas Fudge's excellent book "Christianity Without the Cross".

Pliny
08-27-2013, 12:03 PM
I am just trying to ask a question and understand full well the Apostolic viewpoint - I did not roll out of bed into church yesterday.

Even Jeff Arnold will tell you that the gospel is not ACTS 2:38 - it can be stated that it is the response but it certainly is not the gospel.

I am also friends with men like Chester Wright who will not take the position of sending AG folks to hell over the titles baptism. He will not emphatically state that he knows they are saved, but he also will not state they are not. when he and I talked he simply stated "I hope so" - this is someone who is invited to preach at many "trinitarian" pentecostal churches.

The only thing I find hard to grasp is taking a hard line stance on this - Cornelieus may have been taught more truth, but was still considered a man mighty in the scriptures. Like I said, I am not waffling on how I would baptize, just curious on the absolute dogmatic approach....

Maybe I should have kept it to myself...

No you should not IMO. Sincere questions should never be kept to yourself. You have a sincere question and though you may agree or disagree there is nothing wrong with asking the question.

As you can tell in my post I absolutely believe in the necessity of Jesus name baptism. Why? Because it is FOR the remission of sins which has everything to do with the gospel. There is only one gospel.

I hope I am wrong if that makes sense but I would not count on that.
The ancient church believed baptism was part of the new birth - universally.
The ancient church believed baptism was for the remission of sins - universally.
The ancient church recognized Jesus name baptism as the most ancient form of baptism.

It was Trinitarian theology that changed baptism (Jesus name baptism) by emphasizing the need to be baptized into the trinity (titles Father, Son and Holy Ghost). A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

Jason B
08-27-2013, 12:04 PM
Remission of sins has everything to do with the gospel.
And sins are forgiven/remitted by baptism in Jesus' name. :nod

Ignorance is bliss and some people are exceedingly blissful.

I baptize in Jesus name. But salvation doesn't have anything in my opinion to do with the words spoken in baptism, but with the faith of the person being baptized. I think Romans 4 is pretty clear about this and in particular verse 10.

Baptism in JN is proper because His name was invoked it is biblically and historically supported that the early church baptized invoking the name of Jesus. Paul suggest that baptism was carried out in the name of the person who was crucified for us in 1 Cor 1:13. And of course baptism is an expression of obedience, faith, and identification with Christ. But we go to far to say if certain words aren't spoken in baptism someones sins are not remitted.

Jack Shephard
08-27-2013, 12:17 PM
The Gospel has nothing to do with Acts at all. Acts is a book of the bible sure, but Acts also means works & works has nothing to do with salvation.

Pliny
08-27-2013, 12:24 PM
I baptize in Jesus name. But salvation doesn't have anything in my opinion to do with the words spoken in baptism, but with the faith of the person being baptized. I think Romans 4 is pretty clear about this and in particular verse 10.

Baptism in JN is proper because His name was invoked it is biblically and historically supported that the early church baptized invoking the name of Jesus. Paul suggest that baptism was carried out in the name of the person who was crucified for us in 1 Cor 1:13. And of course baptism is an expression of obedience, faith, and identification with Christ. But we go to far to say if certain words aren't spoken in baptism someones sins are not remitted.

The same book of Romans where Paul elaborates on baptism being in HIM not them!?!? Romans 6.

The same book of Romans that the way to walk in new life is to be baptized in HIM not them!?!? Romans 6:5.

We clearly disagree but I appreciate the spirit of your post. I am glad you baptize in Jesus' name and I hope and pray you will lean more my direction.

seekerman
08-27-2013, 12:26 PM
Bottom line, making it simple, it doesn't matter what another man utters while immersing someone.

n david
08-27-2013, 12:38 PM
The Gospel has nothing to do with Acts at all. Acts is a book of the bible sure, but Acts also means works & works has nothing to do with salvation.
The bolded is only partly correct. The Gospel is not the book of Acts, but the book of Acts is the response to the Gospel; so Acts does have something to do with the Gospel. The response to the Gospel is described through the Acts of the Apostles. It's not that it means works and works has nothing to do with salvation. Acts is the actions which the Apostles did in response to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It's a historical record of the events of the early church.

Ferd
08-27-2013, 12:40 PM
The Gospel has nothing to do with Acts at all. Acts is a book of the bible sure, but Acts also means works & works has nothing to do with salvation.


oh good grief.

if acts means work, then repenting is work.

no difference at all.

doublegoodgrief.

Ferd
08-27-2013, 12:42 PM
The Gospel is the death buriel and resurection of Jesus Christ.

Peter preached the Gospel in Acts 2. the people were "pricked in their hearts" and asked what they needed to do.

Peter told them. I fail to understand why we are still arguing with Peter.... the man Jebus told to tell folk what to do?

triplegoodgrief.

The Lemon
08-27-2013, 12:50 PM
I appreciate the input here...iron sharpens iron. Just for the record - asking a question and havving a good discussion about the Word is not always the same as arguing away the truth of the Word.

People need to be able to discuss, ask questions and rightly divide - not be made to feel lost and inferior for bringing something to the table to discuss - be it salvation or our favorite...holiness..

n david
08-27-2013, 12:53 PM
When an individual is baptized, is it the name, titles, or the authority which matters? I'll explain...Mt 28:19 "baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost." Luke 24:47 "that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name..."

Does speaking the titles over someone at baptism cover the authority which comes in the name?

I believe in baptism in Jesus name; I was baptized that way, and I recommend everyone be baptized that way. However, I struggle with condemning someone to hell for being baptized under the titles.

seekerman
08-27-2013, 12:59 PM
When an individual is baptized, is it the name, titles, or the authority which matters? I'll explain...Mt 28:19 "baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost." Luke 24:47 "that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name..."

Does speaking the titles over someone at baptism cover the authority which comes in the name?

I believe in baptism in Jesus name; I was baptized that way, and I recommend everyone be baptized that way. However, I struggle with condemning someone to hell for being baptized under the titles.

Nobody's going to hell because of a man who says the 'wrong' words over them at baptism. The bible teaches no such thing.

Jason B
08-27-2013, 12:59 PM
The same book of Romans where Paul elaborates on baptism being in HIM not them!?!? Romans 6.

The same book of Romans that the way to walk in new life is to be baptized in HIM not them!?!? Romans 6:5.

We clearly disagree but I appreciate the spirit of your post. I am glad you baptize in Jesus' name and I hope and pray you will lean more my direction.

Yes, the same. Chapter 4 doesn't contradict chapter 6 or 8 , it lays the foundation for the following chapters.

If someone is truly justified by faith they will want to identify with Christ in baptism and live a Sprit filled life. But salvation isn't in chapter 6, its explained in 3:21-5:2. From that point Paul moves onto elaboration, explanation, and application of the truths of justification by faith.

I'm always praying for more direction, but I've already been where you are and can't see returning to that position.

Pliny
08-27-2013, 01:12 PM
Yes, the same. Chapter 4 doesn't contradict chapter 6 or 8 , it lays the foundation for the following chapters.

If someone is truly justified by faith they will want to identify with Christ in baptism and live a Sprit filled life. But salvation isn't in chapter 6, its explained in 3:21-5:2. From that point Paul moves onto elaboration, explanation, and application of the truths of justification by faith.

I'm always praying for more direction, but I've already been where you are and can't see returning to that position.

We then must agree to disagree.

I appreciate you NOT being disagreeable and hope I have not been to you.

Take Care

FlamingZword
08-27-2013, 01:54 PM
Just throwing out a question that I know has been asked and talked about on here probably a zillion times but at any rate here goes:

Saw a post today from a friend and minister and her was preaching (or ranting) about how your sins can only be remmitted if when you are baptized the preacher proclaims the name of Jesus.

Further more - he went on to say if you were baptized in the titles that you were decieved by the devil and that you would reside in the lake of fire if you are not baptized "correctly".

That is the jist at any rate. Now - I am not starting this so we all can berate one another on this subject - that said, my initial question after I read his post was - "Do we really believe that God sends people to Hell for all eternity over a technicality?"

Now, if I baptize, I do do it in the name of Jesus, and would personally not do it any other way - but that being said, I have a serious problem with grouping folks as unsaved and hellbound over what was or was not said at the moment of baptism.

Call me a coward, but it is a bit of a gray area to me and I was astonished at how bold and matter of fact this preacher friend was putting it in his post - I kinda scratched my head on that one..

Well any doctrine could be called a technicality, Whether a person goes to Hell or not for not properly doing this or that is not for us to decide, for he is the one that created the rules and it is him who decides how much he is willing to bend the rules to let some people into heaven.

Our goal should be to adhere as much as possible to his rules, not to think that his rules are simply suggestions.

FlamingZword
08-27-2013, 02:03 PM
Baptism is in FACT part of the gospel.
Acts 2:38 is as much part of the gospel as the cross.

I totally disagree, the Gospel is the life, the death, the burial and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That is the gospel.

If we believe the Gospel then we imitate Jesus by repentance (the Death), the burial (Baptism in the name of Jesus), the resurrection (our filling with the holy spirit) and living for him (His life).

The Gospel is what Jesus did.
Our response to the Gospel is what we do.

Michael The Disciple
08-27-2013, 02:04 PM
Well any doctrine could be called a technicality, Whether a person goes to Hell or not for not properly doing this or that is not for us to decide, for he is the one that created the rules and it is him who decides how much he is willing to bend the rules to let some people into heaven.

Our goal should be to adhere as much as possible to his rules, not to think that his rules are simply suggestions.

This is it!:highfive

FlamingZword
08-27-2013, 02:06 PM
Sins are not forgiven at baptism. Acts 2:38 is not a part of the gospel.

Correct Acts 2:38 is not part of the Gospel, but sins do are remitted at baptism.

Michael The Disciple
08-27-2013, 02:06 PM
Generally speaking baptism into the name of Jesus IS more about the convert calling on his name than about what the baptizer says. Yet if the baptizer teaches the wrong thing to the convert he will be confused.

FlamingZword
08-27-2013, 02:10 PM
Bottom line, making it simple, it doesn't matter what another man utters while immersing someone.

If it doesn't matter, then it would be fine for me to baptize others in my name?

What if I decide to baptize people into the name of Bill Clinton or perhaps Ronald Regan.

seekerman
08-27-2013, 02:19 PM
If it doesn't matter, then it would be fine for me to baptize others in my name?

What if I decide to baptize people into the name of Bill Clinton or perhaps Ronald Regan.

Your intoning "FlamingZword" or "Bill Clinton" or "Ronald Regan" over the individual certainly wouldn't determine the salvation of the individual, would it?

Michael The Disciple
08-27-2013, 02:22 PM
My testimony of baptism in Jesus name.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZDRk6Sx4X0

FlamingZword
08-27-2013, 02:23 PM
Your intoning "FlamingZword" or "Bill Clinton" or "Ronald Regan" over the individual certainly wouldn't determine the salvation of the individual, would it?

Ok then in that case feel free to baptize others in your name, since it does not make any difference.

what shall we call the people baptized by you, the Seekermen?

The Lemon
08-27-2013, 02:24 PM
I realize that things are to be in order, and certainly there are absolutes in the Word. There are things we are responsible for in this relationship with Jesus.

I know that our realtionship to Christ is similar to that of a husband and wife. I have been with the same woman for nearly 25 years. I love her and am committed to her by the help and grace of God. Having said that, I would not seperate my marriage from her based on her not following every edict that I may require of her.

In fact, outside of adultery, I am not biblically allowed to divorce. We may argue, we may fuss every now and again, but I love her and am in this for the long haul.

Case in point...someone repents, gets baptized, recieves Gods Spirit - they are in this relationship....but somehow, they are going to be put away - not because they are not following hard after God in all they know, but because when they got dunked it was in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost - ala the "technicality".

Some folks on here are more comfortable then I am in damning that soul. I am not talking about an unbeliever who refuses the Gospel or who does not believe that He is...to me there is a difference.

seekerman
08-27-2013, 02:31 PM
Ok then in that case feel free to baptize others in your name, since it does not make any difference.

what shall we call the people baptized by you, the Seekermen?

Nope, call the people who are baptized by me Christians.

This ain't complicated folks.

FlamingZword
08-27-2013, 02:36 PM
Nope, call the people who are baptized by me Christians.

This ain't complicated folks.

I fully agree it is not complicated, the words are pretty simple.

"I baptize you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ"

easy just a few words.

seekerman
08-27-2013, 02:39 PM
I fully agree it is not complicated, the words are pretty simple.

"I baptize you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ"

easy just a few words.

Unless a man intones those words over another person in baptism, the baptizee isn't saved?

Jack Shephard
08-27-2013, 03:05 PM
The bolded is only partly correct. The Gospel is not the book of Acts, but the book of Acts is the response to the Gospel; so Acts does have something to do with the Gospel. The response to the Gospel is described through the Acts of the Apostles. It's not that it means works and works has nothing to do with salvation. Acts is the actions which the Apostles did in response to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It's a historical record of the events of the early church.

oh good grief.

if acts means work, then repenting is work.

no difference at all.

doublegoodgrief.

Acts or works are not a part of salvation, period. Repenting is an inward acknowledgment of ones' sins and the declaration to God that one wishes to change. That isn't an work like baptism or an attempt to have to follow a grouping of standards of dress. I was making a play on words not literally saying the book of Acts was all about "salvational works" Sorry for the miscommunication.

CC1
08-27-2013, 03:42 PM
Just throwing out a question that I know has been asked and talked about on here probably a zillion times but at any rate here goes:

Saw a post today from a friend and minister and her was preaching (or ranting) about how your sins can only be remmitted if when you are baptized the preacher proclaims the name of Jesus.

Further more - he went on to say if you were baptized in the titles that you were decieved by the devil and that you would reside in the lake of fire if you are not baptized "correctly".

That is the jist at any rate. Now - I am not starting this so we all can berate one another on this subject - that said, my initial question after I read his post was - "Do we really believe that God sends people to Hell for all eternity over a technicality?"

Now, if I baptize, I do do it in the name of Jesus, and would personally not do it any other way - but that being said, I have a serious problem with grouping folks as unsaved and hellbound over what was or was not said at the moment of baptism.

Call me a coward, but it is a bit of a gray area to me and I was astonished at how bold and matter of fact this preacher friend was putting it in his post - I kinda scratched my head on that one..

I have only read your initial post in this thread but I can tell you right off the bat that most old time Pentecostals answer would be that one mans "technicality" may be God's "necessity"!

NotforSale
08-27-2013, 05:48 PM
Regretfully, you are looking outside the BOOK..

Regretfully, you are bound by the LAW...of RELIGION.

NotforSale
08-27-2013, 06:02 PM
Well any doctrine could be called a technicality, Whether a person goes to Hell or not for not properly doing this or that is not for us to decide, for he is the one that created the rules and it is him who decides how much he is willing to bend the rules to let some people into heaven.

Our goal should be to adhere as much as possible to his rules, not to think that his rules are simply suggestions.

That's the problem; defining the "RULES". Rules are what create Religion(s) and Religion eventually becomes darkness because of these Rules.

This is where Hell came from. You don't obey MY rules, you will go to Hell.

I don't understand why we continually revert to Old Testament ways, which was Religion gone rouge. You pick up sticks on the Sabbath, you will be stoned to death. You don't say the name of Jesus at baptism, you go to Hell.

RandyWayne
08-27-2013, 06:03 PM
I have only read your initial post in this thread but I can tell you right off the bat that most old time Pentecostals answer would be that one mans "technicality" may be God's "necessity"!

This is very true. This is why we have a small % that baptism must be done using only the Hebrew word for Jesus. Still others believe that it must be done in a river -something about the moving water removing sins.

On the subject of "Jesus name" in baptism, I have wondered how many would be uncomfortable being baptized by a man (whether he is their pastor or not) who has a speech impediment? Just how much could someone verbally mangle the word "Jesus" until it suddenly didn't count as a valid baptism in Gods eyes?

FlamingZword
08-27-2013, 06:22 PM
That's the problem; defining the "RULES". Rules are what create Religion(s) and Religion eventually becomes darkness because of these Rules.

This is where Hell came from. You don't obey MY rules, you will go to Hell.

I don't understand why we continually revert to Old Testament ways, which was Religion gone rouge. You pick up sticks on the Sabbath, you will be stoned to death. You don't say the name of Jesus at baptism, you go to Hell.

well I could listen to you or I could listen to Jesus, who said
He that believed and is baptized shall be saved.

Between listening to you and listening to Jesus, who do you think I choose.

Sasha
08-27-2013, 07:36 PM
I see people saying that works doesn't save, and to that alone, I agree, however, one cannot be saved without works if you believe the Bible.

God says faith without works is dead. You can have faith, which is an absolute for salvation, but without works, it's a dead faith. I don't see any examples in scripture where anyone was saved having dead faith.

That being said, I also don't believe anyone has to say anything at a baptism. Jesus calls on us to be baptized and to call on His name. There is nothing that says the preacher has to say anything during a baptism.

If we have faith, a true live faith, works will go hand in hand with that faith.

I don't believe anyone will be in heaven, claiming they did nothing but have faith.

seekerman
08-27-2013, 07:56 PM
Between listening to you and listening to Jesus, who do you think I choose.

Jesus didn't teach that His blood was imputed to one person according to the baptismal actions of another person.

Jason B
08-27-2013, 07:56 PM
well I could listen to you or I could listen to Jesus, who said
He that believed and is baptized shall be saved.

Between listening to you and listening to Jesus, who do you think I choose.

Amen. Not4Sale basically wants us to believe we have no Word from God in this world, but then speaks as if his options are divine. Hmmmm, whose the real authority here? Postmodernism at its finest and deadliest.

Jason B
08-27-2013, 08:00 PM
That's the problem; defining the "RULES". Rules are what create Religion(s) and Religion eventually becomes darkness because of these Rules.

This is where Hell came from. You don't obey MY rules, you will go to Hell.

I don't understand why we continually revert to Old Testament ways, which was Religion gone rouge. You pick up sticks on the Sabbath, you will be stoned to death. You don't say the name of Jesus at baptism, you go to Hell.

This coming from a guy who doesn't believe the Bible is Gods Word, doesn't believe salvation is exclusively through Jesus Christ, doesn't believe in hell, and believes in some form of universalism. Hmmm.

NotforSale
08-28-2013, 01:05 PM
This coming from a guy who doesn't believe the Bible is Gods Word, doesn't believe salvation is exclusively through Jesus Christ, doesn't believe in hell, and believes in some form of universalism. Hmmm.

You make plenty of accusations here without backing up your assumptions. It's the same ole, same ole, coming from someone who thinks they know what God is saying in a Religion that is just like any other.

What voices are you hearing in your head today?

I could give you the facts until I'm blue in the face and you still wouldn't believe the TRUTH (If you dare, read the link below). You follow your own ideas, your own culture, and your own dogmas; face it, you know it's the TRUTH that you are a byproduct of another man's byproduct, afraid to embark on a journey outside the Box of that byproduct!

You believe what you believe because someone else has told you what to believe, and your fear of changing will keep you in the harbor of lies.

On the subject of Hell; The Old Testament does not support or teach about Eternal Damnation. The Jews do not believe in Eternal Damnation. But to the amazement of the World of Faith, TA DA, this little stinker sneaks in the back door via The Roman Catholic Church, with all of their little idols!!!

Yeah buddy, it's all about the FEAR! The FEAR of the unseen! Instead of throwing stones at someone for picking up sticks, we throw them into HELL when they make, one wrong, move! Using Hell is another figure of modern age stoning, and is the greatest form of manipulation ever known to a Religion!

Why don't people get it? Hell, or Eternal Damnation, was a part of other Religions far before Christianity ever existed. JB, get out of the Dark Ages.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/ifhellisreal.htm

NotforSale
08-28-2013, 01:06 PM
well I could listen to you or I could listen to Jesus, who said
He that believed and is baptized shall be saved.

Between listening to you and listening to Jesus, who do you think I choose.

You are listening to yourself.

Jason B
08-28-2013, 02:50 PM
You make plenty of accusations here without backing up your assumptions. It's the same ole, same ole, coming from someone who thinks they know what God is saying in a Religion that is just like any other.

What voices are you hearing in your head today?

I could give you the facts until I'm blue in the face and you still wouldn't believe the TRUTH (If you dare, read the link below). You follow your own ideas, your own culture, and your own dogmas; face it, you know it's the TRUTH that you are a byproduct of another man's byproduct, afraid to embark on a journey outside the Box of that byproduct!

You believe what you believe because someone else has told you what to believe, and your fear of changing will keep you in the harbor of lies.

On the subject of Hell; The Old Testament does not support or teach about Eternal Damnation. The Jews do not believe in Eternal Damnation. But to the amazement of the World of Faith, TA DA, this little stinker sneaks in the back door via The Roman Catholic Church, with all of their little idols!!!

Yeah buddy, it's all about the FEAR! The FEAR of the unseen! Instead of throwing stones at someone for picking up sticks, we throw them into HELL when they make, one wrong, move! Using Hell is another figure of modern age stoning, and is the greatest form of manipulation ever known to a Religion!

Why don't people get it? Hell, or Eternal Damnation, was a part of other Religions far before Christianity ever existed. JB, get out of the Dark Ages.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/ifhellisreal.htm

So out of everything I said all you can respond with is there is no hell?

Listen you haven't presented me with anything new. I'm not dogmatic about the specifics of hell. But I do know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God and will be forever separated Him. If you don't believe that then you on what authority should I accept your opinions over the Bible? What credibility do you have vs the Word of God? If were going by our own reason and logic, then I like mine a lot better than yours. And I'll take Paul's statements over yours.

navygoat1998
08-29-2013, 09:23 AM
Furthermore..Scripture calls those who preach "another Gospel" "accursed".
meaning doomed to destruction
Those who cease to preach the necessity of Apostolic New Birth bring destruction upon themselves.
I know its old hat. I know its been said a thousand times.
That doesnt make all of the above any less true. And the ability to come up with new arguments does not validate heresy.

What happens if its your Gospel that is accursed???

FlamingZword
08-29-2013, 10:04 AM
What happens if its your Gospel that is accursed???

It is only if we preach something different than what Paul preached.
as long as we preach what Paul preached, then we are on safe ground, and of course we do know that Paul baptized in the name of Jesus, so that is one thing that we are still preaching the same.

navygoat1998
08-29-2013, 10:21 AM
It is only if we preach something different than what Paul preached.
as long as we preach what Paul preached, then we are on safe ground, and of course we do know that Paul baptized in the name of Jesus, so that is one thing that we are still preaching the same.

What happens if your interpretation of scriptures is not correct, would that make you accursed?

NotforSale
08-29-2013, 11:08 AM
So out of everything I said all you can respond with is there is no hell?

Listen you haven't presented me with anything new. I'm not dogmatic about the specifics of hell. But I do know that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God and will be forever separated Him. If you don't believe that then you on what authority should I accept your opinions over the Bible? What credibility do you have vs the Word of God? If were going by our own reason and logic, then I like mine a lot better than yours. And I'll take Paul's statements over yours.

Again, accusations and assumptions that lead to nowhere. Whenever I get specific, you tap out with posts like this. You're the one who brought up that I don't believe in Hell, so I present the FACTS and you dodge the bullet, again.

Since you brought up another "Smoke and Mirrors" attempt to corner me with yet, ANOTHER, shift in the sand, I'll ask you this; who are the unrighteous?

You said you'll take Paul's statements over mine, so here's what Paul said: What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Romans 3:9-12

Paul also said this: As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:38-39

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Isaiah 64:6

kclee4jc
08-29-2013, 11:15 AM
What happens if its your Gospel that is accursed???

you tell me..

I want to hear from you what happens in light of this scripture if someone preaches "another gospel".

FlamingZword
08-29-2013, 11:49 AM
What happens if your interpretation of scriptures is not correct, would that make you accursed?

Brother be careful with drift.

One time in the ocean when I was in a boat I could see the land, but little by little my boat was drifting to the point that eventually I almost lost sight of the land. People who lose sight of the land are in deep trouble, I always remember that, specially if in a small boat, so I made sure that I was never too far from land again. (I am sure you being a navy guy know that)

You see when someone leaves a certain path, it is only a few steps of difference, but little by little the gap widens to the point that eventually the initial path is not longer seen, if you keep on drifting, you might eventually lose sight of where you begun and end up where you did not expect.

NotforSale
08-29-2013, 12:43 PM
Brother be careful with drift.

One time in the ocean when I was in a boat I could see the land, but little by little my boat was drifting to the point that eventually I almost lost sight of the land. People who lose sight of the land are in deep trouble, I always remember that, specially if in a small boat, so I made sure that I was never too far from land again. (I am sure you being a navy guy know that)

You see when someone leaves a certain path, it is only a few steps of difference, but little by little the gap widens to the point that eventually the initial path is not longer seen, if you keep on drifting, you might eventually lose sight of where you begun and end up where you did not expect.

Fear is why people drift in no direction. Faith is why people sail to find direction.

seekerman
08-29-2013, 12:46 PM
What happens if its your Gospel that is accursed???

I don't think you're going to get an answer. Great question though.

navygoat1998
08-29-2013, 12:47 PM
Brother be careful with drift.

One time in the ocean when I was in a boat I could see the land, but little by little my boat was drifting to the point that eventually I almost lost sight of the land. People who lose sight of the land are in deep trouble, I always remember that, specially if in a small boat, so I made sure that I was never too far from land again. (I am sure you being a navy guy know that)

You see when someone leaves a certain path, it is only a few steps of difference, but little by little the gap widens to the point that eventually the initial path is not longer seen, if you keep on drifting, you might eventually lose sight of where you begun and end up where you did not expect.

Thank you for the concern. I know what you say is out of concern. I did not drift out and I don't have itchy ears. I know where I began and some of my past I appreciate and some of my past I am glad to be free of.

This one thing I know, if I keep anchored to the Author and Finisher of my faith, I will not turn to the left nor to the right but will stand steadfast.

seekerman
08-29-2013, 12:51 PM
Brother be careful with drift.

One time in the ocean when I was in a boat I could see the land, but little by little my boat was drifting to the point that eventually I almost lost sight of the land. People who lose sight of the land are in deep trouble, I always remember that, specially if in a small boat, so I made sure that I was never too far from land again. (I am sure you being a navy guy know that)

You see when someone leaves a certain path, it is only a few steps of difference, but little by little the gap widens to the point that eventually the initial path is not longer seen, if you keep on drifting, you might eventually lose sight of where you begun and end up where you did not expect.

I bet the analogy you're attempting to make is about those who were once oneness Pentecostal and little by little they began to question certain doctrines, certain teachings and rejected them. Amirite?

Could it be, would it be possible, that the oneness Pentecostals, 100 years ago, began drifting away from truth and find themselves far from land today? Could it be that they're still following the beacon of romanism which will eventually run them aground on the rocks of error? (How's that for an analogy???)

houston
08-29-2013, 12:55 PM
What happens if its your Gospel that is accursed???

God always extends them grace when they err on the side of caution. It's the rest of us who are hell bound reprobates.

KWSS1976
08-29-2013, 12:56 PM
Seekman,why you so hard on Pentecostals why dont you show the other religions some love too, my guess is they all are wrong about some things that took place in the bible, I come from the Apostolic side of Pentecost and now AOG but I would not bash my Apostolic brothern just because they send eveyone to hell who is not Apostolic.....lol

navygoat1998
08-29-2013, 01:02 PM
you tell me..

I want to hear from you what happens in light of this scripture if someone preaches "another gospel".

Why is it you answer my question with my own question?

To be honest I have always wondered what Paul was saying in these Scriptures but it was important enough that he said it twice. I have not taken the time to study it out.

Tag your it, What say ye!

seekerman
08-29-2013, 01:04 PM
Seekman,why you so hard on Pentecostals why dont you show the other religions some love too, my guess is they all are wrong about some things that took place in the bible, I come from the Apostolic side of Pentecost and now AOG but I would not bash my Apostolic brothern just because they send eveyone to hell who is not Apostolic.....lol

Where am I bashing anyone? I do question certain teachings and point out areas of disagreement though. To me, that's not bashing.

kclee4jc
08-30-2013, 09:08 AM
Why is it you answer my question with my own question?

To be honest I have always wondered what Paul was saying in these Scriptures but it was important enough that he said it twice. I have not taken the time to study it out.

Tag your it, What say ye!

I say, "woe is me if I preach not the Gospel".
If what I preach is not truth and I am leading people into deception rather than a biblical new birth, then I am accursed. If what I preach is false, then I am lost and doomed for destruction.

Paul told Timothy to endure sound doctrine that would save himself and those that hear him. If I am not enduring sound doctrine, then I along with those that hear me are lost.

I do not take this casually.

kclee4jc
08-30-2013, 12:51 PM
EHH EHHMMM...
i answered your question

navygoat1998
08-30-2013, 01:51 PM
I say, "woe is me if I preach not the Gospel".
If what I preach is not truth and I am leading people into deception rather than a biblical new birth, then I am accursed. If what I preach is false, then I am lost and doomed for destruction.

Paul told Timothy to endure sound doctrine that would save himself and those that hear him. If I am not enduring sound doctrine, then I along with those that hear me are lost.

I do not take this casually.

Sorry I just got home :heeheehee

I agree with that those who teach and preach a false gospel are accursed.

When I share the Gospel, I am sure of Whom I am sharing and I am very serious about this because, sad as it maybe I could be the only Jesus somebody ever knows.

We see the Gospel different don't we?

I live a life as one that one day will have to give an account for what I did with God gave me to steward.