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charity
09-15-2013, 07:30 AM
Reposted from Dan Alicea's facebook wall:

Loren Yadon's Epic "The Tragedy of War" : On January 25, 1993, at the Landmark Conference, in Stockton, CA, Rev. Loren Yadon, nephew of an original General Board member of the United Pentecostal Church and teacher at Christian Life College, would speak truth about the intents of the his elders. He spoke of the "narrow mindedness" that had entered his ministerial organization, after the Westberg Resolution was passed at the 1992 General Conference, and instituted a divisive affirmation statement. A movement that has sought to silence a divergent view of salvation within its leaders.

It would cost him his job. His career. His error ... SPEAKING TRUTH.

https://soundcloud.com/lukeodle/tragedy-of-war

charity
09-15-2013, 07:31 AM
The remarks about the UPC start at the 23 minute mark.

houston
09-15-2013, 07:44 AM
It's old news. No one cares anymore.

Sweet Pea
09-15-2013, 08:05 AM
Deleted my post.

Never mind.... I decided it is best that I don't get into a discussion on this thread.

jediwill83
09-15-2013, 09:29 AM
Good stuff.

Baron1710
09-15-2013, 12:25 PM
Old news...but historic...and prophetic.

Two major departures and one gradual exodus later they still haven't learned their lesson in the UPCI.

FlamingZword
09-15-2013, 12:39 PM
Reposted from Dan Alicea's facebook wall:

Loren Yadon's Epic "The Tragedy of War" : On January 25, 1993, at the Landmark Conference, in Stockton, CA, Rev. Loren Yadon, nephew of an original General Board member of the United Pentecostal Church and teacher at Christian Life College, would speak truth about the intents of the his elders. He spoke of the "narrow mindedness" that had entered his ministerial organization, after the Westberg Resolution was passed at the 1992 General Conference, and instituted a divisive affirmation statement. A movement that has sought to silence a divergent view of salvation within its leaders.

It would cost him his job. His career. His error ... SPEAKING TRUTH.

https://soundcloud.com/lukeodle/tragedy-of-war

They simply shot the messenger.
The message still not getting thru, that is why the UPCI is in a decline and will continue in decline.

Jack Shephard
09-15-2013, 12:59 PM
A message can only cause a change when it is received by the listeners...

FlamingZword
09-15-2013, 01:47 PM
Old news...but historic...and prophetic.

Two major departures and one gradual exodus later they still haven't learned their lesson in the UPCI.

Perhaps this is a good thing and we should encourage the hard core conservatives to keep on making even more resolutions, who knows with more departures and a bigger exodus, they might shrink enough to the point of becoming irrelevant. :heeheehee

Baron1710
09-15-2013, 02:17 PM
Perhaps this is a good thing and we should encourage the hard core conservatives to keep on making even more resolutions, who knows with more departures and a bigger exodus, they might shrink enough to the point of becoming irrelevant. :heeheehee

I have been gone from the UPC since shortly after the fallout from this sermon so I have no desire to tear down the organization. I do find it sad that so many of us were forced out by he hardliners when we would have been happy to stay but for the attitude that we must all believe the same on every passage and every issue.

Pressing-On
09-15-2013, 03:22 PM
I have been gone from the UPC since shortly after the fallout from this sermon so I have no desire to tear down the organization. I do find it sad that so many of us were forced out by he hardliners when we would have been happy to stay but for the attitude that we must all believe the same on every passage and every issue.

How would you ever hope to maintain any type of unity having two messages preached on Sunday - one for the morning and one for the evening? Or one for Sunday and one for Wednesday? The church body would wonder at what point they would be saved.

Obviously, you wanted your point preached and believed. Not much different than the other side's view?

IMO, it would be better to preach the same thing - the "common faith" as Paul terms it. In the Greek, "common" is define as "shared".

Kind of a no-brainer that parting company was the only solution.

Baron1710
09-15-2013, 03:25 PM
How would you ever hope to maintain any type of unity having two messages preached on Sunday - one for the morning and one for the evening? Or one for Sunday and one for Wednesday? The church body would wonder at what point they would be saved.

Obviously, you wanted your point preached and believed. Not much different than the other side's view?

IMO, it would be better to preach the same thing - the "common faith" as Paul terms it. In the Greek, "common" is define as "shared".

Kind of a no-brainer that parting company was the only solution.

Have you listened to the sermon PO.

Baron1710
09-15-2013, 03:32 PM
I am doubting that you have based n the ignorance of your post.

Pressing-On
09-15-2013, 03:35 PM
Have you listened to the sermon PO.

No, I didn't listen to it. I was assuming it was the same issue - one-step vs. three-step.

Pressing-On
09-15-2013, 03:36 PM
I am doubting that you have based n the ignorance of your post.
:heeheehee

Still like your gay hairdo. :happydance

Baron1710
09-15-2013, 03:38 PM
No, I didn't listen to it. I was assuming it was the same issue - one-step vs. three-step.

You do yourself a disservice by assuming and ranting rather than listening.

Pressing-On
09-15-2013, 03:39 PM
You do yourself a disservice by assuming and ranting rather than listening.

Well, was it about that issue? Because I have no idea what else could be so important to disagree about. And I don't have time to listen to it.

Give me more of a recap. What irritated you enough to leave?

Baron1710
09-15-2013, 03:42 PM
You don't have time to listen but plenty of time to comment...

Jason B
09-15-2013, 03:43 PM
Reposted from Dan Alicea's facebook wall:

Loren Yadon's Epic "The Tragedy of War" : On January 25, 1993, at the Landmark Conference, in Stockton, CA, Rev. Loren Yadon, nephew of an original General Board member of the United Pentecostal Church and teacher at Christian Life College, would speak truth about the intents of the his elders. He spoke of the "narrow mindedness" that had entered his ministerial organization, after the Westberg Resolution was passed at the 1992 General Conference, and instituted a divisive affirmation statement. A movement that has sought to silence a divergent view of salvation within its leaders.

It would cost him his job. His career. His error ... SPEAKING TRUTH.

https://soundcloud.com/lukeodle/tragedy-of-war
Interesting stuff. I listened from 23:00 to 48:00.

So what became of this Yadon fellow?

Pressing-On
09-15-2013, 03:43 PM
You don't have time to listen but plenty of time to comment...

You can't tell me if the main issue was regarding the one-step vs. three-step? That's all I want to know. If it is not, then tell me it isn't?

houston
09-15-2013, 03:46 PM
You can't tell me if the main issue was regarding the one-step vs. three-step? That's all I want to know. If it is not, then tell me it isn't?

Affirmation statement. I didn't even listen to it.

Baron1710
09-15-2013, 03:48 PM
Affirmation statement. I didn't even listen to it.

More comments from those who didn't even hear it, it's no wonder the UPC continues to decline.

Pressing-On
09-15-2013, 03:51 PM
More comments from those who didn't even hear it, it's no wonder the UPC continues to decline.

So, you are not going to answer the question? Is it one-step vs. three-step?

I'm listening to something else right now.

Jason B
09-15-2013, 03:54 PM
More comments from those who didn't even hear it, it's no wonder the UPC continues to decline.

Seems like Yadon was on target about destroying the barn. I'd love to have seen a more inclusive UPC. Perhaps its not too late but it seems that ship has sailed. If it didn't happen under Urshan/Haney/DKB I don't know who would know enough about the past to seek to bring the 2 (or many now) sides together. Its a shame too, I really like DKB but he seems to want to be willingly ignorant of the past.

Baron1710
09-15-2013, 03:56 PM
It's not anything v. Anything. It's about getting along with others and not killing the innocent.

But you guys are fine with a great man taking a hit for attempting to reconcile an organization headed off the tracks.

Who cares that his life was turned upside down by hateful, angry, jealous men who claimed to have THE Truth, but they have not one once of love, and their truth is suspect at best.

houston
09-15-2013, 04:13 PM
More comments from those who didn't even hear it, it's no wonder the UPC continues to decline.

Not interested in anything UPC. Thanks.

houston
09-15-2013, 04:14 PM
Seems like Yadon was on target about destroying the barn. I'd love to have seen a more inclusive UPC. Perhaps its not too late but it seems that ship has sailed. If it didn't happen under Urshan/Haney/DKB I don't know who would know enough about the past to seek to bring the 2 (or many now) sides together. Its a shame too, I really like DKB but he seems to want to be willingly ignorant of the past.

DKB is not interested in uniting sides unless you cross over to the side that he is on.

Baron1710
09-15-2013, 04:19 PM
Not interested in anything UPC. Thanks.

Fair enough.

DKB is not interested in uniting sides unless you cross over to the side that he is on.


True words.

Pressing-On
09-15-2013, 04:23 PM
It's not anything v. Anything. It's about getting along with others and not killing the innocent.

But you guys are fine with a great man taking a hit for attempting to reconcile an organization headed off the tracks.

Who cares that his life was turned upside down by hateful, angry, jealous men who claimed to have THE Truth, but they have not one once of love, and their truth is suspect at best.
Actually, it is about one-step vs. three-step. I didn't have to listen to it to know that, as I thought. The red flag was DA's name. :heeheehee

"Fellowship the difference." - around the 26 minute marker.

Anyway, my original post stands. It is not possible to fellowship the two views. Why? Because the point of salvation is at odds. Someone and everyone must be true to their beliefs.

There is a "common" salvation and one side is wrong.

How would you ever hope to maintain any type of unity having two messages preached on Sunday - one for the morning and one for the evening? Or one for Sunday and one for Wednesday? The church body would wonder at what point they would be saved.

Obviously, you wanted your point preached and believed. Not much different than the other side's view?

IMO, it would be better to preach the same thing - the "common faith" as Paul terms it. In the Greek, "common" is define as "shared".

Kind of a no-brainer that parting company was the only solution.

Jason B
09-15-2013, 04:31 PM
DKB is not interested in uniting sides unless you cross over to the side that he is on.

Yeah seems that way and that's kind of sad. He's got the respect (used to anyway) of enough people in the movement he could do much good for healing if he wanted to. I don't really think DKB in his heart of heart believes initial evidence. In his commentary on Romans he explains justification by faith then throws in a one liner defining saving faith as the 3 step program. In listening to a debate between DKB and James White on tongues (YouTube) in which DKB obviously didn't want to say White wasn't saved but it finally came out after several direct questions and much dancing by DKB. In his book the new birth he puts forgiveness of sins at baptism. When I first read the book I was young in the Lord and actually called to ask him how someone who was baptized in Jesus name and thus had their sins forgiven could go to hell? I didn't receive a satisfactory answer. It was years before I abandoned the IE doctrine, but that was probably the first crack in the dam.

Baron1710
09-15-2013, 04:36 PM
Actually, it is about one-step vs. three-step. I didn't have to listen to it to know that, as I thought. The red flag was DA's name. :heeheehee

"Fellowship the difference." - around the 26 minute marker.

Anyway, my original post stands. It is not possible to fellowship the two views. Why? Because the point of salvation is at odds. Someone and everyone must be true to their beliefs.

There is a "common" salvation and one side is wrong.

Worked for 40 years.

It worked fine until the rewrites of UPC history began their campaign. Liars and dividers.

Baron1710
09-15-2013, 04:38 PM
How would you ever hope to maintain any type of unity having two messages preached on Sunday - one for the morning and one for the evening? Or one for Sunday and one for Wednesday? The church body would wonder at what point they would be saved.

Obviously, you wanted your point preached and believed. Not much different than the other side's view?

IMO, it would be better to preach the same thing - the "common faith" as Paul terms it. In the Greek, "common" is define as "shared".

Kind of a no-brainer that parting company was the only solution.

You seriously can't believe your nonsense post can you?

Jason B
09-15-2013, 04:39 PM
There is a "common" salvation and one side is wrong.



I say its the side that ADDS to the gospel. The UPC is down under 3 million and that's "evangelistically speaking". They "won" the argument and destroyed the fellowship. And what's worse they continue to divide and shrink. Ironically enough one of the required reading books for ministerial license was "United we stand" but if we finished the well known phrase we'd be forced to admit "Divided we fall."

jediwill83
09-15-2013, 04:43 PM
Its talking about when the UPCI was formed it was two groups with some common beliefs that felt they could "fellowship the differences"....covers the revisionist mindset of some that pretend the original founders were something that they were not "überconservative....no beards or jewelry...baptism remits sins vs baptism because sins were remitted at repentence."....Saying in this war there are many getting caught in the crossfire and being killed or wounded and some becoming so disgusted with the fighting they want nothing of either side...its a good listen...not just one step vs three.

Pressing-On
09-15-2013, 04:47 PM
You seriously can't believe your nonsense post can you?

Look at it logically - Birds eye view of the congregation - the fly on the wall.

Two messages preached on one fine Sunday. Heads looking around, whispering - At what point is salvation effected in my life? Who do I listen to? Who do I follow? Who do I believe?

How in the world can those two views live together in harmony? NEVER.

There is one message that Paul and the Disciples preached. There are not two. Whether there were opposing views trying to live side by side according to you, DA, Yadon and others, there was only one message preached by Peter, et. al.

It was going to eventually collide. And let me tell you, this isn't the first time I have stated my view and DA, himself, agreed with me - it was going to cause division at some point.

Pressing-On
09-15-2013, 04:49 PM
I say its the side that ADDS to the gospel. The UPC is down under 3 million and that's "evangelistically speaking". They "won" the argument and destroyed the fellowship. And what's worse they continue to divide and shrink. Ironically enough one of the required reading books for ministerial license was "United we stand" but if we finished the well known phrase we'd be forced to admit "Divided we fall."

Every denomination is down, Jason.

Baron1710
09-15-2013, 04:53 PM
Look at it logically - Birds eye view of the congregation - the fly on the wall.

Two messages preached on one fine Sunday. Heads looking around, whispering - At what point is salvation effected in my life? Who do I listen to? Who do I follow? Who do I believe?

How in the world can those two views live together in harmony? NEVER.

There is one message that Paul and the Disciples preached. There are not two. Whether there were opposing views trying to live side by side according to you, DA, Yadon and others, there was only one message preached by Peter, et. al.

It was going to eventually collide. And let me tell you, this isn't the first time I have stated my view and DA, himself, agreed with me - it was going to cause division at some point.


An entire generation lived side by side with different views. What makes you think you would go to someone else's church and preach what you knew they didn't believe?

That is the problem right there. The arrogant "ministers" that did this kind of thing and want to force everyone to believe just like them.

Pretty small puddle the UPC plays in these days, the blew up the barn for sure.

Pressing-On
09-15-2013, 05:03 PM
An entire generation lived side by side with different views. What makes you think you would go to someone else's church and preach what you knew they didn't believe?

That is the problem right there. The arrogant "ministers" that did this kind of thing and want to force everyone to believe just like them.

Pretty small puddle the UPC plays in these days, the blew up the barn for sure.

There is only one "common" salvation. Whether that person came to my church and preached it or not, it is going to cause division.

This is pretty strong wording in Galatians 1:8, "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!"

I would be more concerned with that wording than what an organization of men were trying to do to find some "harmony" and "unity" on "opposing" views. "Opposing" being the operative word.

Baron1710
09-15-2013, 05:10 PM
There is only one "common" salvation. Whether that person came to my church and preached it or not, it is going to cause division.

This is pretty strong wording in Galatians 1:8, "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!"

I would be more concerned with that wording than what an organization of men were trying to do to find some "harmony" and "unity" on "opposing" views. "Opposing" being the operative word.

You are so far out in left field you have no idea. There views were more alike than they were separate. But you guys got your way, it cost a lot of innocent people but like he says in the sermon, "You got the rats."

DKB and his troops have destroyed the UPC, a dying church that hasn't a clue they are killing themselves.

Pressing-On
09-15-2013, 05:18 PM
You are so far out in left field you have no idea. There views were more alike than they were separate. But you guys got your way, it cost a lot of innocent people but like he says in the sermon, "You got the rats."

DKB and his troops have destroyed the UPC, a dying church that hasn't a clue they are killing themselves.

I believe that Brother Epley has said that they were alike, as you state, but it didn't remain that way - and that is the larger point.

Look, if I am going to lay my life down - even to the point of death - it better be for the view I would willingly die for. I'm not going to vacillate between two opinions. It is just not going to work for me.

Jason B
09-15-2013, 05:21 PM
Every denomination is down, Jason.

Even more reason to believe the UPC would be up if their truth was really "the truth".

Of course if it really was "the truth" and the spirit was "the Holy Spirit" then they would love one another, not be a factory of division, churning out one after another. Is there any more fragmented group than "spirit filled" people?

Pressing-On
09-15-2013, 05:28 PM
Even more reason to believe the UPC would be up if their truth was really "the truth".

Of course if it really was "the truth" and the spirit was "the Holy Spirit" then they would love one another, not be a factory of division, churning out one after another. Is there any more fragmented group than "spirit filled" people?

You sound a bit divisive in this post. Love ya, man, but I'm just sayin'... You don't sound like you "love" them either.

tv1a
09-15-2013, 05:51 PM
Correction, The UPCI is under 1 million. The organization lost a third of its membership throwing the Ethiopian membership under the bus. Even raiding other oneness organizations, the UPCI American membership is less than 1 million. Creative accounting constitutes the extra North American membership.

I say its the side that ADDS to the gospel. The UPC is down under 3 million and that's "evangelistically speaking". They "won" the argument and destroyed the fellowship. And what's worse they continue to divide and shrink. Ironically enough one of the required reading books for ministerial license was "United we stand" but if we finished the well known phrase we'd be forced to admit "Divided we fall."

Baron1710
09-15-2013, 05:52 PM
I believe that Brother Epley has said that they were alike, as you state, but it didn't remain that way - and that is the larger point.

Look, if I am going to lay my life down - even to the point of death - it better be for the view I would willingly die for. I'm not going to vacillate between two opinions. It is just not going to work for me.

Apparently your the victim of the "I am right, everyone else is wrong" attitude. Must be weary be all alone.

tv1a
09-15-2013, 05:54 PM
Don't confuse them with facts. Their minds are made up.

Apparently your the victim of the "I am right, everyone else is wrong" attitude. Must be weary be all alone.

Jason B
09-15-2013, 06:04 PM
You sound a bit divisive in this post. Love ya, man, but I'm just sayin'... You don't sound like you "love" them either.

Perhaps it sounds that way but that's not how it is. Just yesterday my wife and I had a short conversation about visiting a UPC in the metroplex for Sun eve service (where some our friends go). Supposedly it is moderate.

But the issues were talking about here make it difficult for me to actually follow through with thoughts of visiting because I don't want politics, I'm not going to be pinned down to violating my conscious about what I believe or lying about what I believe (especially for use in the ministry).

But I've got a big fellowship dilemma. I'm preacher at a Bible Church but can't find any real fellowship (or org) because I can't violate my conscious and say I believe in the trinity. I also baptize in Jesus name and I don't think I can be comfortable in a church that doesn't. Its not that I'm uncomfortable fellowshipping with trinitarians, but those who most reflect where I am on their side are the conservative (usually Reformed) type churches and they're not going to accept someone in any meaningful way who denies the trinity. Its not an unwillingness on my part to have a broad fellowship but on theirs. My unwillingness to fellowship is with people who don't believe in the deity of Christ and churches that don't emphasize repentance and personal holiness. (E.g. I don't seek fellowship with seeker churches, Word of Faith Churches, and traditional denominations don't tend to fellowship outside their own, and I'm not real interested in the Methodist, Baptist, Or Church of Christ - all the denominations common to my area). I've got some good personal fellowship from people who attend different churches, but nothing beyond that.

So I'm a square peg trying to fit in a round hole. The UPC still more closely reflects my values and beliefs more than any other fellowship I am aware of, plus there's still so many friends of ours who are in the UPC, so that is also tugs at me. But because of what I believe I don't know if I could go back. Not because I can't co exist, but because some of those brethren would seek to destroy me. (Perhaps not at the local level, but probably at the district level). And I'm not of the mindset anymore not to challenge them ( when I was young 20s I was intimidated and even when I had questions or disagreements mostly kept them to myself).

But my point is IF they allowed to spirit of unity that was present at the merger to again be in their midst then people like me would have fellowship. As is I feel like I'm on Gilligan's island (spirituality). I can survive the loneliness and isolation if I have to because Jesus is with me, but I admittedly yearn for some fellowship amongst like minded people with similar passions.

So I'm probably more pro UPC than you will give me credit for, but my statements stand. If the leaders were really led by the Holy Spirit they would be defined by love for the brethren not division of the same.

Pressing-On
09-15-2013, 06:10 PM
Apparently your the victim of the "I am right, everyone else is wrong" attitude. Must be weary be all alone.

Pot meet Kettle. :heeheehee

Pressing-On
09-15-2013, 06:15 PM
Perhaps it sounds that way but that's not how it is. Just yesterday my wife and I had a short conversation about visiting a UPC in the metroplex for Sun eve service (where some our friends go). Supposedly it is moderate.

But the issues were talking about here make it difficult for me to actually follow through with thoughts of visiting because I don't want politics, I'm not going to be pinned down to violating my conscious about what I believe or lying about what I believe (especially for use in the ministry).

But I've got a big fellowship dilemma. I'm preacher at a Bible Church but can't find any real fellowship (or org) because I can't violate my conscious and say I believe in the trinity. I also baptize in Jesus name and I don't think I can be comfortable in a church that doesn't.

So I'm a square peg trying to fit in a round hole. The UPC still more closely reflects my values and beliefs more than any other fellowship I am aware of, plus there's still so many friends of ours who are in the UPC, so that is also tugs at me. But because of what I believe I don't know if I could go back. Not because I can't co exist, but because some of those brethren would seek to destroy me. (Perhaps not at the local level, but probably at the district level). And I'm not of the mindset anymore not to challenge them ( when I was young 20s I was intimidated and even when I had questions or disagreements mostly kept them to myself).

But my point is IF they allowed to spirit of unity that was present at the merger to again be in their midst then people like me would have fellowship. As is I feel like I'm on Gilligan's island (spirituality). I can survive the loneliness and isolation if I have to because Jesus is with me, but I admittedly yearn for some fellowship amongst like minded people with similar passions.

So I'm probably more pro UPC than you will give me credit for, but my statements stand. If the leaders were really led by the Holy Spirit they would be defined by love for the brethren not division of the same.
I understand you perfectly. We didn't get involved in the ministry, even though asked many times, because of the politics. It would have destroyed us. But, to be fair, I think there are politics involved wherever you find human beings. The Apostles rubbed up against those loving to have the preeminence. And I am sure that just because Diotrephes is referenced as such a man, I am sure there were many more they contended with.

Baron1710
09-15-2013, 06:18 PM
Pot meet Kettle. :heeheehee

No PO I don't think only those who hold my views are saved. You version of the Gospel is the whole Gospel to our little church, and the rest of the world can go to hell.

houston
09-15-2013, 06:19 PM
You are so far out in left field you have no idea. There views were more alike than they were separate. But you guys got your way, it cost a lot of innocent people but like he says in the sermon, "You got the rats."

DKB and his troops have destroyed the UPC, a dying church that hasn't a clue they are killing themselves.

Now I am interested in the thread.


Bernard made a post on Facebook about the unity of the UPC. I searched for it on his page and could not find it. I commented along the lines that there is disunity and they force out everyone that doesn't agree with them. He replied that my comment proved his point (of a unified UPC).

houston
09-15-2013, 06:26 PM
No PO I don't think only those who hold my views are saved. You version of the Gospel is the whole Gospel to our little church, and the rest of the world can go to hell.

Their problem is that the gospel is Acts 2:38.

Jason B
09-15-2013, 06:26 PM
Now I am interested in the thread.

Bernard made a post on Facebook about the unity of the UPC. I searched for it on his page and could not find it. I commented along the lines that there is disunity and they force out everyone that doesn't agree with them. He replied that my comment proved his point (of a unified UPC).

Interesting. I do remember a thread on DKBs Facebook page where Dan aptly pointed out the historic revision. I wonder if that thread was taken down, I can't remember how DKB responded but it seemed like an MSNBC worthy spin job.

Jason B
09-15-2013, 06:34 PM
Their problem is that the gospel is Acts 2:38.

Acts 2:38 is the gospel. ( at least there is nothing wrong with quoting Acts 2:38 in regard to salvation, I do it all the time. But preached on justification thus morning. Acts 2:38 doesn't contradict anything).

Their problem is the MIS interpretation of Acts 2:38 and forcing tongues into the verse.

The simple fact is there are 2 commands and a promise, not "3 steps". Command repentance and baptism. Promise is the Spirit. Nothing about tongues, nor any mention or indication of tongues amongst the 3000. We are told the proper response for those who believed Peter was baptism. And they were added to the church.

If the UPC would stick to that then anyone who was willing to repent of their sins and be baptized in Jesus name would be "added" to the body. Now that's pretty Biblical sounding to me. Of course in reality THEY are still added to the body, the true church, just excluded from the UPC, one of thousands of man made denominations.

houston
09-15-2013, 06:41 PM
Interesting. I do remember a thread on DKBs Facebook page where Dan aptly pointed out the historic revision. I wonder if that thread was taken down, I can't remember how DKB responded but it seemed like an MSNBC worthy spin job.

I can't say that he is not interested in dialogue. My opinion is that he is not. To be fair and balanced like Bill O'Reilly, there is a post on his wall where he stated that he posted:
August 5, 2012
I use FB to post thoughts, not debate, so I reserve right to remove hostile remarks; but at least they help me avoid danger of Luke 6:26

Baron1710
09-15-2013, 07:16 PM
Their problem is that the gospel is Acts 2:38.

There problems bigger than that...how they interpret Acts 2:38 used to have some latitude, now there is only one way to interpret it. If you don't do it the way DKB does, you are out.

Jermyn Davidson
09-15-2013, 07:30 PM
There problems bigger than that...how they interpret Acts 2:38 used to have some latitude, now there is only one way to interpret it. If you don't do it the way DKB does, you are out.

I wish I could download this sermon onto my PC.

n david
09-15-2013, 07:40 PM
Around 19min, he rails against Pentecostals voting for pro-choice candidates. This I can agree with him about!

n david
09-15-2013, 07:47 PM
27 - history of the founding. Good stuff. Wish it were the same today. Sad to see what the org has become.

Jermyn Davidson
09-15-2013, 07:49 PM
What has become of this preacher?
Is he still alive?
He mentioned Stockton.

n david
09-15-2013, 07:52 PM
Great illustration about the 12 gauge and barn. I agree with much of what he's said thus far; not sure if this was the forum for it though.

Jermyn Davidson
09-15-2013, 07:55 PM
Great illustration about the 12 gauge and barn. I agree with much of what he's said thus far; not sure if this was the forum for it though.

I didn't like his "wheat and tares" analogy.

Jermyn Davidson
09-15-2013, 07:57 PM
Still, I'd like to post this sermon on my facebook page too.

Jason B
09-15-2013, 08:08 PM
Great illustration about the 12 gauge and barn. I agree with much of what he's said thus far; not sure if this was the forum for it though.

If not a ministers forum in the midst of a org wide division then when? Seems like it is never the "forum" for this kind of thing. The attitude is seems like "just sweep it under the rug". It seems Paul wasn't the kind to just let an underlying problem fester. When Peter was out of line he called him on it publicly and to his face, and right in front of Gentile converts.
What Yadon did took an unbelievable amount of love and courage. He essentially tried to save the fellowship and no doubt knew if his plea failed he would be the one to take the fall.

Jermyn Davidson
09-15-2013, 08:25 PM
I agree with nDavid, but I don't know what else could have been done. I am sure he sought God before preaching this sermon, I wish this split never occurred but it did-- about 20 years ago.

Seems like it could have been avoided, but I wasn't there.

houston
09-15-2013, 08:41 PM
Still, I'd like to post this sermon on my facebook page too.

You have a Facebook page now?

n david
09-15-2013, 08:46 PM
You think Landmark Conference, which is for everyone, is the place to air personal grievances against the organization? What good is speaking out at Landmark, other than being known as the one who called out his organization and gave a controversial message?

The better forum is during the business meeting at General Conference. If you truly want to do more than just be a martyr, and if you truly want to orchestrate a change...that is the place to do it. Obviously, it would have to be narrowed down and shortened in length. But that's where it should be done.

His reference to Olive Haney was tacky, as was his question of whether or not Goss would be allowed behind a UPC pulpit.

I do agree with his premise, and his statements of how the UPC was formed, I just don't agree with the forum and a couple parts where he seems to just take shots at the org.

Jermyn Davidson
09-15-2013, 09:05 PM
His use of the "wheat and tares" analogy was off - putting.

His idea that allowing "heretics" was in the best interest of fellowship was one of the few parts I had to disagree with and thought it did not add any thing to the idea of preserving the unity of the original merger.


I get it that he was trying to stop the bleeding, but it obviously didn't work. I wonder if he could do a couple things over again, what would they be?

Jermyn Davidson
09-15-2013, 09:05 PM
You have a Facebook page now?

Been had one for several years now-- just don't use it much.

houston
09-15-2013, 09:11 PM
Mmkay

Jermyn Davidson
09-15-2013, 09:12 PM
Mmkay

Ok, maybe not several years... but for a while now for sure. :)

Baron1710
09-15-2013, 09:28 PM
I don't think it was tacky to Mention Olive Haney at all. This is what they looked like back in the day.

https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/2741_1113390760705_5111368_n.jpg

bishoph
09-15-2013, 09:58 PM
I don't think it was tacky to Mention Olive Haney at all. This is what they looked like back in the day.

https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/2741_1113390760705_5111368_n.jpg

What evidence is there that this picture was taken while Sis. Haney was in the church? It was 12 years before the merger was she Pentecostal then? I am not saying she was not.....I am asking does anyone really know? Are there any pictures of her still like this after the merger? I have pictures of my mother wearing pearls and earrings in the 30's and 40's but that was before she was saved.....incidentally she was at the merger WT Witherspoon was her pastor at that time.

Additionally.....I challenge you or anyone to provide proof that this is "how they looked back then." My mother had many photos from that era and none of them showed jewelry and makeup. Beards, mustaches, goatees, absolutely.....dress was modest (for the most part) in society in general so the church did not have much difference

Truthseeker
09-15-2013, 10:01 PM
What evidence is there that this picture was taken while Sis. Haney was in the church? It was 12 years before the merger was she Pentecostal then? I am not saying she was not.....I am asking does anyone really know? Are there any pictures of her still like this after the merger? I have pictures of my mother wearing pearls and earrings in the 30's and 40's but that was before she was saved.....incidentally she was at the merger WT Witherspoon was her pastor at that time.

Good point/question.

RandyWayne
09-15-2013, 10:07 PM
I don't think it was tacky to Mention Olive Haney at all. This is what they looked like back in the day.

https://scontent-b-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/2741_1113390760705_5111368_n.jpg

Sorry, I just had to fix this picture a bit.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/picture.php?albumid=225&pictureid=1394

Jason B
09-15-2013, 10:11 PM
You think Landmark Conference, which is for everyone, is the place to air personal grievances against the organization? What good is speaking out at Landmark, other than being known as the one who called out his organization and gave a controversial message?

The better forum is during the business meeting at General Conference. If you truly want to do more than just be a martyr, and if you truly want to orchestrate a change...that is the place to do it. Obviously, it would have to be narrowed down and shortened in length. But that's where it should be done.

His reference to Olive Haney was tacky, as was his question of whether or not Goss would be allowed behind a UPC pulpit.

I do agree with his premise, and his statements of how the UPC was formed, I just don't agree with the forum and a couple parts where he seems to just take shots at the org.

I disagree. He pointed out the inconsistencies, it wasn't tacky. And behind closed doors the politics are really thick.

n david
09-15-2013, 10:22 PM
What evidence is there that this picture was taken while Sis. Haney was in the church? It was 12 years before the merger was she Pentecostal then? I am not saying she was not.....I am asking does anyone really know? Are there any pictures of her still like this after the merger? I have pictures of my mother wearing pearls and earrings in the 30's and 40's but that was before she was saved.....incidentally she was at the merger WT Witherspoon was her pastor at that time.
Great question.

Hoovie
09-15-2013, 10:26 PM
Great sermon! I heard it first several years ago... still love it!

Truthseeker
09-15-2013, 10:35 PM
The tares and wheat analogy is out ofcontext.

Baron1710
09-15-2013, 10:38 PM
What evidence is there that this picture was taken while Sis. Haney was in the church? It was 12 years before the merger was she Pentecostal then? I am not saying she was not.....I am asking does anyone really know? Are there any pictures of her still like this after the merger? I have pictures of my mother wearing pearls and earrings in the 30's and 40's but that was before she was saved.....incidentally she was at the merger WT Witherspoon was her pastor at that time.

Additionally.....I challenge you or anyone to provide proof that this is "how they looked back then." My mother had many photos from that era and none of them showed jewelry and makeup. Beards, mustaches, goatees, absolutely.....dress was modest (for the most part) in society in general so the church did not have much difference

Loren Yadon says in his sermon that she was out of Frank Ewart's church. He was one of the biggest defenders of Olive Haney. If you wanted to find yourself on the outside with him, just attack OH.

Hoovie
09-15-2013, 10:39 PM
The terms "heretics" and "tares" I think are not his view of those whom he disagrees with.

houston
09-15-2013, 10:39 PM
Was it Goss who wrote that plainness of dress didn't come in until the holiness preachers hyj... Um... embraced pentecost?

houston
09-15-2013, 10:42 PM
Women with cut hair at CLC???

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=269988&postcount=87

Hoovie
09-15-2013, 10:45 PM
Was it Goss who wrote that plainness of dress didn't come in until the holiness preachers hyj... Um... embraced pentecost?

I think his wife stated something to that effect.

bishoph
09-16-2013, 07:05 AM
Loren Yadon says in his sermon that she was out of Frank Ewart's church. He was one of the biggest defenders of Olive Haney. If you wanted to find yourself on the outside with him, just attack OH.

This (the bolded) does not answer the question, to say she came out of Frank Ewart's church does not tell us if she was in his church at the time this picture was taken. Further, NOONE is attacking Olive Haney, I just don't want people trying to make a case for "the way they dressed back then" based on a picture that is not relevant (IF it was a pre-church picture)....IMO that would be like showing a picture of a 5' 6" 14yr old Trayvon Martin as the kid that was shot, when in reality he was 17 and 5' 11"......DKB and friends have been charged (in this thread) with rewriting our history, but those who would use a picture (if indeed it was not taken while she was saved) of OH to support their claims would be guilty of the same.

In the final analysis, one must be honest enough to see that yes there were two differing views of when salvation happened at the merger. (what many now refer to as one step or saved at repentance/three step or water spirit) The oneness movement was still a developing movement. All of those early adherents had come from various religious backgrounds which impacted their view on MANY areas of doctrine. As they settled into their new found doctrine it is reasonable that their beliefs would change over time. (No different than a Trinitarian pastor today who would convert.....his/her beliefs would change, even if minimally over time.)

The "till we all come into the unity of the faith" clause was clearly put in the original statement to appease brethren on both sides who felt that the opposing view needed to align themselves with the proper doctrinal view. IMO the merger should have never taken place. Salvation is a HUGE issue and one that I do not believe can be taken lightly. Even if we agree on so many points that we are nearly alike.....if we do not agree on what constitutes salvation there CANNOT be unity for long. To expect such, would require a compromise (on one side or the other) on the foundational doctrine of salvation.

If I truly believe water/spirit (three step) I cannot believe that the saved at repentance (One step) crowd is actually saved until they have also been baptized in Jesus name and received the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If I truly believe one is saved at repentance, I cannot long fellowship those who I believe are placing a burden on their followers that is not biblical. To do so would bring confusion (which it did.) For there to be enduring unity, both sides would have to come to the understanding that it really doesn't matter either way......not likely to happen IMO.

Ferd
09-16-2013, 07:38 AM
I knew Brother Yaden. Grew up with his kids. He is a prince of a man. I love and respect him to this day and have nothing but the very finest opinion of him even while not agreeing with him on all points.

I have from the beginning of these forum discussions called the Affirmation Statement the "Infernal document" and have stated that the ripping of the org was wrong.

That being said, it must be sad to live a life so caught up in the past that you live there. Dan and his pals need to get over it and move along. We all get it. Dan hates the UPCI. He despises the doctrine his dad preached and lived. its become an obsession.

others have been "hurt" whatever. Suck it up people. Decide who you are and build what you believe God intends.

You will never build anything so long as you spend your time trying to tare down your neighbors house.

sad small people make demolition the project of their lives.

Jermyn Davidson
09-16-2013, 07:46 AM
Sad small people make demolition the project of their lives.

There it is.

n david
09-16-2013, 08:16 AM
I disagree. He pointed out the inconsistencies, it wasn't tacky. And behind closed doors the politics are really thick.IMO it was tacky. It was like putting a finger in the eye of the organization. Politics may be thick behind closed doors, but it's the right place to put forward the suggestions he made, and address the accusations he made.

This (the bolded) does not answer the question, to say she came out of Frank Ewart's church does not tell us if she was in his church at the time this picture was taken. Further, NOONE is attacking Olive Haney, I just don't want people trying to make a case for "the way they dressed back then" based on a picture that is not relevant (IF it was a pre-church picture)....IMO that would be like showing a picture of a 5' 6" 14yr old Trayvon Martin as the kid that was shot, when in reality he was 17 and 5' 11"......DKB and friends have been charged (in this thread) with rewriting our history, but those who would use a picture (if indeed it was not taken while she was saved) of OH to support their claims would be guilty of the same.
:thumbsup

Baron1710
09-16-2013, 08:27 AM
This (the bolded) does not answer the question, to say she came out of Frank Ewart's church does not tell us if she was in his church at the time this picture was taken. Further, NOONE is attacking Olive Haney, I just don't want people trying to make a case for "the way they dressed back then" based on a picture that is not relevant (IF it was a pre-church picture)....IMO that would be like showing a picture of a 5' 6" 14yr old Trayvon Martin as the kid that was shot, when in reality he was 17 and 5' 11"......DKB and friends have been charged (in this thread) with rewriting our history, but those who would use a picture (if indeed it was not taken while she was saved) of OH to support their claims would be guilty of the same.

In the final analysis, one must be honest enough to see that yes there were two differing views of when salvation happened at the merger. (what many now refer to as one step or saved at repentance/three step or water spirit) The oneness movement was still a developing movement. All of those early adherents had come from various religious backgrounds which impacted their view on MANY areas of doctrine. As they settled into their new found doctrine it is reasonable that their beliefs would change over time. (No different than a Trinitarian pastor today who would convert.....his/her beliefs would change, even if minimally over time.)

The "till we all come into the unity of the faith" clause was clearly put in the original statement to appease brethren on both sides who felt that the opposing view needed to align themselves with the proper doctrinal view. IMO the merger should have never taken place. Salvation is a HUGE issue and one that I do not believe can be taken lightly. Even if we agree on so many points that we are nearly alike.....if we do not agree on what constitutes salvation there CANNOT be unity for long. To expect such, would require a compromise (on one side or the other) on the foundational doctrine of salvation.

If I truly believe water/spirit (three step) I cannot believe that the saved at repentance (One step) crowd is actually saved until they have also been baptized in Jesus name and received the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If I truly believe one is saved at repentance, I cannot long fellowship those who I believe are placing a burden on their followers that is not biblical. To do so would bring confusion (which it did.) For there to be enduring unity, both sides would have to come to the understanding that it really doesn't matter either way......not likely to happen IMO.

Let me say this about the picture, the Haney's were there the day that was preached, not one of them, not KH not OH, no one raised the objection that she wasn't part of the movement at that time. There is a principle in law that if a person would have spoke up at the time and they didn't, it is evidence that the statement is true. No one, objected at the time.

Baron1710
09-16-2013, 08:38 AM
I knew Brother Yaden. Grew up with his kids. He is a prince of a man. I love and respect him to this day and have nothing but the very finest opinion of him even while not agreeing with him on all points.

I have from the beginning of these forum discussions called the Affirmation Statement the "Infernal document" and have stated that the ripping of the org was wrong.

That being said, it must be sad to live a life so caught up in the past that you live there. Dan and his pals need to get over it and move along. We all get it. Dan hates the UPCI. He despises the doctrine his dad preached and lived. its become an obsession.

others have been "hurt" whatever. Suck it up people. Decide who you are and build what you believe God intends.

You will never build anything so long as you spend your time trying to tare down your neighbors house.

sad small people make demolition the project of their lives.

This message was a historical landmark (no pun intended) in the life of the UPCI, few messages are remembered 20 years after the fact, I can count the ones I remember on one hand. This was the sermon heard around the organization even though it was quickly cut off and tapes were no longer sold. My own copy was loaned out and "eaten" by a tape player. It took several years of searching and asking to find this historical document again and make it available to the masses.

As a historical event only fools would turn their back on the historical evidence and continue to repeat the same mistakes. It is not about tearing down, it is about setting the record straight, in the face of historical revisionists. This was the history of many of us, and we have an obligation to object to the lies that have been told about our past.

In addition it is a low shot to claim that Dan "Despises the doctrine his dad preached." I don't think that is a judgment that you can make, I am not sure there is anyone Dan places on a higher plane than his Father. Extremely low class remark.

bishoph
09-16-2013, 08:52 AM
Let me say this about the picture, the Haney's were there the day that was preached, not one of them, not KH not OH, no one raised the objection that she wasn't part of the movement at that time. There is a principle in law that if a person would have spoke up at the time and they didn't, it is evidence that the statement is true. No one, objected at the time.

That may be a principal of law.....but it is a flawed principle. If anyone is willing to believe that KH/OH or anyone for that matter, would have stood up and objected to what was being said in the middle of a sermon being preached with a conference crowd present, I have some ocean front property in Montana for sale. (Besides that we all know of situations where people have NOT spoken up or come forward and their refusal to do so did not mean that the event did/did not happen.)

It really doesn't matter in the bigger scheme of things.....as I said earlier, the movement was developing and anyone who would deny that is willfully ignorant. Regardless of whether she (OH) was in church at the time or not, at some point the movement as a whole...black/white, UPC/PAW/ALJC/COOLJ....Nearly all oneness organizations, developed a more restrictive doctrine of separation/sanctification from the world and a water/spirit view of salvation.

endtimer
09-16-2013, 08:58 AM
Good post. Good message. Ive been around UPC ministers and churches for 30+ years and this would be my first time hearing this message. An old message but I would contend that it is timeless as it addresses an issue that seems to recycle and gain new life every so often. Thank you for posting. Still relevant in my opinion.

Scott Hutchinson
09-16-2013, 09:15 AM
I'm listening to it now. It needs to be heard.

Baron1710
09-16-2013, 09:17 AM
That may be a principal of law.....but it is a flawed principle. If anyone is willing to believe that KH/OH or anyone for that matter, would have stood up and objected to what was being said in the middle of a sermon being preached with a conference crowd present, I have some ocean front property in Montana for sale. (Besides that we all know of situations where people have NOT spoken up or come forward and their refusal to do so did not mean that the event did/did not happen.)

It really doesn't matter in the bigger scheme of things.....as I said earlier, the movement was developing and anyone who would deny that is willfully ignorant. Regardless of whether she (OH) was in church at the time or not, at some point the movement as a whole...black/white, UPC/PAW/ALJC/COOLJ....Nearly all oneness organizations, developed a more restrictive doctrine of separation/sanctification from the world and a water/spirit view of salvation.

Your being ridiculous. The point wasn't that they should stand up in the conference, no one would expect that. The point is they never objected after the Sermon. Both have passed from this life never having protested his assertion. Unheard of if in fact it were untrue.

The only thing flawed is your own inability to accept anything outside of your narrow view as true.

Scott Hutchinson
09-16-2013, 09:18 AM
Even there are things I don't agree with,we should be honest with the past. Lying is wrong,and people who cover things up aren't walking in Holiness. I'm not in a org. but we should be honest in things that happened yrs.ago.

bishoph
09-16-2013, 09:29 AM
Your being ridiculous. The point wasn't that they should stand up in the conference, no one would expect that. The point is they never objected after the Sermon. Both have passed from this life never having protested his assertion. Unheard of if in fact it were untrue.

The only thing flawed is your own inability to accept anything outside of your narrow view as true.

You can't make either assumption, you couldn't possibly know if either of them ever objected or disagreed with the assertion made unless you personally asked them or were privy to their conversation on the subject, and you don't know me at all, so you don't know what I accept or don't.

Using your logic, the fact that Bro. Yaden was fired and his career finished (the OP's statement in post 1) could be evidence that they did not agree with his statements. To say that KH coward down to political pressure would indicate that he was a man who would not stand for the principles he believed.....a charge I think unworthy of such a great man.

Baron1710
09-16-2013, 09:33 AM
You can't make either assumption, you couldn't possibly know if either of them ever objected or disagreed with the assertion made unless you personally asked them or were privy to their conversation on the subject, and you don't know me at all, so you don't know what I accept or don't.

Using your logic, the fact that Bro. Yaden was fired and his career finished (the OP's statement in post 1) could be evidence that they did not agree with his statements. To say that KH coward down to political pressure would indicate that he was a man who would not stand for the principles he believed.....a charge I think unworthy of such a great man.

The same great man who walked up to LY after the sermon and told him it was one of the best he had heard in 40 years? The one that promised to protect him when reports began to circulate that some where offended? The one who sent someone else to ask for his resignation? Is that the great man you speak of?

bishoph
09-16-2013, 09:40 AM
Even there are things I don't agree with,we should be honest with the past. Lying is wrong,and people who cover things up aren't walking in Holiness. I'm not in a org. but we should be honest in things that happened yrs.ago.

I agree totally! The problem is that (as I see it) there is revisionism on both sides of the aisle. The same crowd that shout from the mountaintops that we should maintain the spirit of the merger and we should allow for diversity in the body and unite on what we have in common while minimizing our differences.....are the ones who are the most vocal to rail against standards and ANY doctrinal view different than their own. If they really desired the "spirit of the merger" they would keep their dissenting views to themselves and allow everyone to believe what they feel is right. But they are no different than the ones they charge with being divisive. They have become judgmental and mean spirited against those that they charge with the same. They claim freedom.....but they are bound by the bitterness and hatred for the doctrine/group they have come out of.

bishoph
09-16-2013, 09:47 AM
The same great man who walked up to LY after the sermon and told him it was one of the best he had heard in 40 years? The one that promised to protect him when reports began to circulate that some where offended? The one who sent someone else to ask for his resignation? Is that the great man you speak of?

So now, you would try to impugn the man you previously used to support your view. Further, you speak of these things as though you were personally there......if that is the case then you certainly can say what you saw/heard.....otherwise (unless you have been told it by one or more of those directly involved) it is hearsay, and you, more than most, know the legal veracity of that.

Baron1710
09-16-2013, 09:50 AM
I agree totally! The problem is that (as I see it) there is revisionism on both sides of the aisle. The same crowd that shout from the mountaintops that we should maintain the spirit of the merger and we should allow for diversity in the body and unite on what we have in common while minimizing our differences.....are the ones who are the most vocal to rail against standards and ANY doctrinal view different than their own. If they really desired the "spirit of the merger" they would keep their dissenting views to themselves and allow everyone to believe what they feel is right. But they are no different than the ones they charge with being divisive. They have become judgmental and mean spirited against those that they charge with the same. They claim freedom.....but they are bound by the bitterness and hatred for the doctrine/group they have come out of.

PCI view as the most vocal is laughable. You have described the Water/Spirit folks pretty well. I could, though I won't, quote names of well known ministers still actively involved in the UPC, one teaches at UGST. That assured me, when I was thinking of leaving the UPC, that just because those who hold the more liberal view are not vocal they were out there in numbers. They would express their views in private but wouldn't dare in public because of the response from those that are hard line. It was the loud mouth no mercy types that actively set about telling tales and spreading rumors demanding the resignation of LY while never once talking to him personally.

Baron1710
09-16-2013, 09:54 AM
So now, you would try to impugn the man you previously used to support your view. Further, you speak of these things as though you were personally there......if that is the case then you certainly can say what you saw/heard.....otherwise (unless you have been told it by one or more of those directly involved) it is hearsay, and you, more than most, know the legal veracity of that.

First, you have no idea what hearsay is. You have no idea what the exceptions to hearsay are. I was a student at CLC when the event occurred and have spoken directly to those involved, so I do have a pretty good idea of what happened. I also know one of those who worked actively to get rid of LY, he was my pastor, a man I greatly admired at one time. I was shocked at his view that students asking questions was a threat.

bishoph
09-16-2013, 10:13 AM
PCI view as the most vocal is laughable. You have described the Water/Spirit folks pretty well. I could, though I won't, quote names of well known ministers still actively involved in the UPC, one teaches at UGST. That assured me, when I was thinking of leaving the UPC, that just because those who hold the more liberal view are not vocal they were out there in numbers. They would express their views in private but wouldn't dare in public because of the response from those that are hard line. It was the loud mouth no mercy types that actively set about telling tales and spreading rumors demanding the resignation of LY while never once talking to him personally.

You missed the point of what I was saying.....I did not say PCI was the most vocal, I am not speaking of those still currently "in" the organization, I am referring to those who have left and a few within who will at every chance tear down and try to completely annul anyone's belief in standards, and other doctrinal issues. Just read through this forum, and any time the subject comes up there are plenty of people who will do everything they can to encourage people to walk away from standards, and "manmade" rules, and any other doctrinal variance that they see different. Why not leave them alone and let them serve God as they see it or have been taught? If it doesn't matter and we'll all go to heaven anyway.....why do you and others feel the need to enlighten others that they don't need to believe whatever they have been taught or come to understand on their own?

This is the point that I am making.......you say that the hardliners are the culprits.....I tend to agree.....I believe in being conservative but not caustic.....I do not believe we have to be mean and hateful to stand for what we believe.....and have lived my life to this point trying to have honest dialogue with people of opposing views without condemning them. But what you and many others charge the "hardliners" of doing....is being done from the other side of the aisle as well. Two wrongs do not make a right.

FlamingZword
09-16-2013, 10:17 AM
I agree totally! The problem is that (as I see it) there is revisionism on both sides of the aisle. The same crowd that shout from the mountaintops that we should maintain the spirit of the merger and we should allow for diversity in the body and unite on what we have in common while minimizing our differences.....are the ones who are the most vocal to rail against standards and ANY doctrinal view different than their own. If they really desired the "spirit of the merger" they would keep their dissenting views to themselves and allow everyone to believe what they feel is right. But they are no different than the ones they charge with being divisive. They have become judgmental and mean spirited against those that they charge with the same. They claim freedom.....but they are bound by the bitterness and hatred for the doctrine/group they have come out of.

I am not UPCI so what happened or happens there does not affect me, however it does show me that both sides have issues.

Apparently some in the UPCI would like to rewrite history, and that is totally dishonest, unbecoming of a Christian at all.

on the other hand some who left the UPCI were either forced out or left on their own and apparently are still bitter over the whole issue.

I see plenty of fault in both sides with neither side willing to be humble and repent of their attitude.

The UPCI has or had two wings the liberal side and the conservative side, it seems that eventually the conservative side won the upper hand and decided to purge the organization of those who would not agree with them; for that they created the Affirmative statement (A horrible idiotic idea) that strained and eventually split the organization. If the continual hemorrhage of the UPCI keeps up eventually the UPCI itself might die out; will the last person leaving the UPCI headquarters please turn off the lights.

Scott Hutchinson
09-16-2013, 10:22 AM
I agree totally! The problem is that (as I see it) there is revisionism on both sides of the aisle. The same crowd that shout from the mountaintops that we should maintain the spirit of the merger and we should allow for diversity in the body and unite on what we have in common while minimizing our differences.....are the ones who are the most vocal to rail against standards and ANY doctrinal view different than their own. If they really desired the "spirit of the merger" they would keep their dissenting views to themselves and allow everyone to believe what they feel is right. But they are no different than the ones they charge with being divisive. They have become judgmental and mean spirited against those that they charge with the same. They claim freedom.....but they are bound by the bitterness and hatred for the doctrine/group they have come out of.

I can agree with you in premise.

OldPathsII
09-16-2013, 10:25 AM
Any questioning of Loren Yadon's story of being congratulated is simply and totally idiotic. You can hear Dan Segraves, head of the college, constantly in the background enthusiastically backing him up. There are also a few times where the voice of Kenneth Haney can distinctly be heard.

It is what it is......he was heralded as a great voice for the time by KFH and then fired by him, and not even in person. You just can't re-write this history. It's etched in stone.

Baron1710
09-16-2013, 10:30 AM
You missed the point of what I was saying.....I did not say PCI was the most vocal, I am not speaking of those still currently "in" the organization, I am referring to those who have left and a few within who will at every chance tear down and try to completely annul anyone's belief in standards, and other doctrinal issues. Just read through this forum, and any time the subject comes up there are plenty of people who will do everything they can to encourage people to walk away from standards, and "manmade" rules, and any other doctrinal variance that they see different. Why not leave them alone and let them serve God as they see it or have been taught? If it doesn't matter and we'll all go to heaven anyway.....why do you and others feel the need to enlighten others that they don't need to believe whatever they have been taught or come to understand on their own?

This is the point that I am making.......you say that the hardliners are the culprits.....I tend to agree.....I believe in being conservative but not caustic.....I do not believe we have to be mean and hateful to stand for what we believe.....and have lived my life to this point trying to have honest dialogue with people of opposing views without condemning them. But what you and many others charge the "hardliners" of doing....is being done from the other side of the aisle as well. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Why not leave them alone to serve God as they have been taught, you say.

Hmmm. So now it comes back to the point where some pastor somewhere taught it and it must be respected for all times as a solid Biblical mandate. One of the things LY encouraged in the sermon was open dialogue and reexamination of passages that we may have misinterpreted. To put this in context five faculty members were at, or near the end of, their studies at Western Theological. This had to cause them as a group and individuals to reexamine things.

The hard liners could not allow for such a thing to happen. Open dialogue and reexamine what I have taught, it will show I am not perfect and correct on everything. This we cannot allow.

OldPathsII
09-16-2013, 11:22 AM
One can like or dislike the sermon, that's up to one's tastes and/or opinions. But the history is established and can't be re-written. You can worship the ground Kenneth Haney walked on if you like, but he fired Loren Yadon in a political move, pure and simple. You wanna debate the points of the sermon? Break a leg. You wanna argue over whether or not it was a political firing? Go talk to a fence post because it has an IQ you can relate to.

Loren's wife was KFH's personal secretary.

Results:

Loren Yadon.....ministry and life destroyed.

Kenneth Haney.....General Superintendent.

And I liked Kenneth Haney and have no ax to grind with him. Wanna hear someone brag on someone? I'll talk about K. Haney. But it is what it is.

tv1a
09-16-2013, 11:33 AM
Anyone really believe the absurd notions revisionism happened on both sides? There was a major rewrite of UPCI history in the 1990's spearheaded by men including the current UPCI pope. The Westburg Resolution is a document that could have come from the Third Reich. The spirit of unity was violated by hardliners insisting on rules and regulations over God's Word.

The only thing uniting the two groups was immersion in Jesus name. You cannot
They didn't let wardrobe and jewelry stand in the way of unity.

The facts do not support revisionist history on both sides.

I agree totally! The problem is that (as I see it) there is revisionism on both sides of the aisle. The same crowd that shout from the mountaintops that we should maintain the spirit of the merger and we should allow for diversity in the body and unite on what we have in common while minimizing our differences.....are the ones who are the most vocal to rail against standards and ANY doctrinal view different than their own. If they really desired the "spirit of the merger" they would keep their dissenting views to themselves and allow everyone to believe what they feel is right. But they are no different than the ones they charge with being divisive. They have become judgmental and mean spirited against those that they charge with the same. They claim freedom.....but they are bound by the bitterness and hatred for the doctrine/group they have come out of.

Sweet Pea
09-16-2013, 11:38 AM
I'm not sure, but I don't think that Brother Yadon's ministry was "destroyed." It may have been destroyed in the UPCI, but I believe that he pastors a good church in Idaho now. Some of you who still are in contact with his son might be able to confirm that?

(Just as a matter of information, I am not defending anyone regarding this. Neither KH or LY. I always though LY was a wonderful preacher. Loved his teachings, especially regarding practical living for God. KH was also a great man and my pastor for many years. I loved him and his ministry. However, neither man is perfect.)

I also wanted to comment about bishoph's question regarding whether Sister Olive Haney was "in" the church when the photograph in question was taken. It is my understanding that yes, she was in Brother Ewart's church at that time. Her parents were missionaries to Japan, in fact, if memory serves me correctly, she was born there. They returned to the states and became a part of Brother Ewart's church. At what point the stricter standards began in her life, I am not sure, but she was one of the most Christ-like people I have ever known.

Baron1710
09-16-2013, 01:00 PM
I'm not sure, but I don't think that Brother Yadon's ministry was "destroyed." It may have been destroyed in the UPCI, but I believe that he pastors a good church in Idaho now. Some of you who still are in contact with his son might be able to confirm that?



Yes, he does pastor a church in Idaho.

To say his ministry wasn't destroyed ignores what happened. He was left without a job, his wife was left without a job. There was a concerted effort to close every pulpit within the organization to him. He was forced into obscurity. A man with a great history, a great wordsmith, and one of the few men at that time with a graduate level education in theology and he was effectively banished. His entire life was wrapped up in an organization who no longer would have anything to do with him. Yes, I would say his ministry was destroyed.

Ferd
09-16-2013, 01:16 PM
This message was a historical landmark (no pun intended) in the life of the UPCI, few messages are remembered 20 years after the fact, I can count the ones I remember on one hand. This was the sermon heard around the organization even though it was quickly cut off and tapes were no longer sold. My own copy was loaned out and "eaten" by a tape player. It took several years of searching and asking to find this historical document again and make it available to the masses.

As a historical event only fools would turn their back on the historical evidence and continue to repeat the same mistakes. It is not about tearing down, it is about setting the record straight, in the face of historical revisionists. This was the history of many of us, and we have an obligation to object to the lies that have been told about our past.

In addition it is a low shot to claim that Dan "Despises the doctrine his dad preached." I don't think that is a judgment that you can make, I am not sure there is anyone Dan places on a higher plane than his Father. Extremely low class remark.

well Baron, As for Brother LY's sermon, let me say that I love and appreciate him and believe the UPCI would have been far better off to heed the warning. I am thankful to God that his ministry was not ruined and that he has found a place to further the work God has for him.

No man can destroy what God built.

As for Dan, the man is a destroyer. whatever bitterness he refused to deal with is now his driver. Call it a low blow if you want. I dont care. It is the truth. someone needs to speak the truth. I have more to say on the subject but it would further no purpose. What i have said, I have said for purpose and sand by it.

Go build something my friend (and I do consider you my friend). That is exactly what LY did. He is a good example to us all.

Jason B
09-16-2013, 01:22 PM
I knew Brother Yaden. Grew up with his kids. He is a prince of a man. I love and respect him to this day and have nothing but the very finest opinion of him even while not agreeing with him on all points.

I have from the beginning of these forum discussions called the Affirmation Statement the "Infernal document" and have stated that the ripping of the org was wrong.

That being said, it must be sad to live a life so caught up in the past that you live there. Dan and his pals need to get over it and move along. We all get it. Dan hates the UPCI. He despises the doctrine his dad preached and lived. its become an obsession.

others have been "hurt" whatever. Suck it up people. Decide who you are and build what you believe God intends.

You will never build anything so long as you spend your time trying to tare down your neighbors house.

sad small people make demolition the project of their lives.

Feed this response reminds of the Catholics defense of the auto cities of the Dark Ages and Hillary Clinton's deflection about Benghazi. Basically instead of doing anything to right wrongs just let some time pass and say "that's old news".

Ferd
09-16-2013, 01:30 PM
Feed this response reminds of the Catholics defense of the auto cities of the Dark Ages and Hillary Clinton's deflection about Benghazi. Basically instead of doing anything to right wrongs just let some time pass and say "that's old news".

What do you want to do Jason? You want the UPCI to stand up as a body and say "we were wrong?" You want all the cons to stop being cons, all the mods to start being libs?


Or do you just want to talk about it ad nausium, ad infinitum until our fingers fall off and we are all dead of old age?


WHAT DO YOU WANT Jason? What is the purpose?
because if you can define a purpose here then by all means lets get to it. But if we are just here to chip away at the hated UPCI, I for one am going to stand up and tell you you are wrong. that the effort does nothing to advance the kingdom of God and that people who throw rocks best be ready to deal with a few trebuchet loads fired back. I am happy to load it up and fire them off if needed.

So what is your pleasure Jason? You interested in explaining what your point is here are is this just the next chance you have to blast away at the UPCI. Im ready to blast back

Jason B
09-16-2013, 01:41 PM
The hard liners could not allow for such a thing to happen. Open dialogue and reexamine what I have taught, it will show I am not perfect and correct on everything. This we cannot allow.
Bullseye. Ultra cons are NEVER interested in genuine dialogue and questions about scriptural exegesis. And for good reason. Most (if not all) of us former UCs that did dive deeper in the scriptures had to make some adjustments. There is some humble pie to be eaten and not everyone has developed the taste.

Jason B
09-16-2013, 02:01 PM
What do you want to do Jason? You want the UPCI to stand up as a body and say "we were wrong?" You want all the cons to stop being cons, all the mods to start being libs?

Or do you just want to talk about it ad nausium, ad infinitum until our fingers fall off and we are all dead of old age?

WHAT DO YOU WANT Jason? What is the purpose?
because if you can define a purpose here then by all means lets get to it. But if we are just here to chip away at the hated UPCI, I for one am going to stand up and tell you you are wrong. that the effort does nothing to advance the kingdom of God and that people who throw rocks best be ready to deal with a few trebuchet loads fired back. I am happy to load it up and fire them off if needed.

So what is your pleasure Jason? You interested in explaining what your point is here are is this just the next chance you have to blast away at the UPCI. Im ready to blast back

Well Ferd here's what I think. DKB ought to play honest with history, look at all the schisms and defections of the last 20 years, admit there is still an underlying rift between current cons and mods and instead of overseeing the fellowship as it continues to fall into decline (mostly because of my way or the highway UCs) then take steps towards healing and reconciliation and make it more amicable for the next generation (the under 40s) to rebuild a strong fellowship for the future. Instead of acting like all is well, this year there's going to be great growth, apostolic revival is right around the corner and all that while the org is steadily (sometimes rapidly) declining.

Look they are reduced to counting a host of young preachers with little experience and a local license ( and several who don't even have a call to preach) in order to keep their statistics up, but how many of these will establish churches, and they count preaching points (so I guess if I went back in the UPC they'd count me as 1 minister and 2 churches since I preach at the county jail once it twice a month) . To borrow a political term ( and I know you like secular politics, apparently church politics too?) Its fuzzy math. They're dwindling losing established ministers and churches and running off many of the young ones too.

So while they're not likely to come out and say "we were wrong" I think it would be prudent to be more tolerant and set the stage for reconciliation in the future. OR they can keep the current strategy and be even more irrelevant (as an org) in 10 years and 20 then now, as they continue to dwindle and their claim to fame is being named in the books on cults.

Ferd
09-16-2013, 02:28 PM
Well Ferd here's what I think. DKB ought to play honest with history, look at all the schisms and defections of the last 20 years, admit there is still an underlying rift between current cons and mods and instead of overseeing the fellowship as it continues to fall into decline (mostly because of my way or the highway UCs) then take steps towards healing and reconciliation and make it more amicable for the next generation (the under 40s) to rebuild a strong fellowship for the future. Instead of acting like all is well, this year there's going to be great growth, apostolic revival is right around the corner and all that while the org is steadily (sometimes rapidly) declining.

Look they are reduced to counting a host of young preachers with little experience and a local license ( and several who don't even have a call to preach) in order to keep their statistics up, but how many of these will establish churches, and they count preaching points (so I guess if I went back in the UPC they'd count me as 1 minister and 2 churches since I preach at the county jail once it twice a month) . To borrow a political term ( and I know you like secular politics, apparently church politics too?) Its fuzzy math. They're dwindling losing established ministers and churches and running off many of the young ones too.

So while they're not likely to come out and say "we were wrong" I think it would be prudent to be more tolerant and set the stage for reconciliation in the future. OR they can keep the current strategy and be even more irrelevant (as an org) in 10 years and 20 then now, as they continue to dwindle and their claim to fame is being named in the books on cults.


I suppose because DBK hasnt called you up and given you a personal mia culpa you know there is no intent to bring things to a better frame?

LOL.

You guys want the UPCI to be something it never was. You want it to be the AOG with Jebus baptism if the whim hits to get something wet.

well. that isnt what it ever was. It isnt even what the PCI bunch was at the merger (I might know a thing or two about that seeing as I come from one of the very strong PCI churches that produced some of the PCI and the UPCIs early leaders and have spent some time talking to some of those fellers that were at the merger)...

but hey, you guys keep up the digging up bones and wringing hands and talking about what the Org ought to do.... which is weird because you guys doing all this talking pulled up stakes and bugged out a long time ago.

RandyWayne
09-16-2013, 02:48 PM
I suppose because DBK hasnt called you up and given you a personal mia culpa you know there is no intent to bring things to a better frame?

LOL.

You guys want the UPCI to be something it never was. You want it to be the AOG with Jebus baptism if the whim hits to get something wet.

well. that isnt what it ever was. It isnt even what the PCI bunch was at the merger (I might know a thing or two about that seeing as I come from one of the very strong PCI churches that produced some of the PCI and the UPCIs early leaders and have spent some time talking to some of those fellers that were at the merger)...

but hey, you guys keep up the digging up bones and wringing hands and talking about what the Org ought to do.... which is weird because you guys doing all this talking pulled up stakes and bugged out a long time ago.

Which is why you haven't heard from me, other than the occasional post as an interested spectator. :)

Baron1710
09-16-2013, 03:03 PM
but hey, you guys keep up the digging up bones and wringing hands and talking about what the Org ought to do.... which is weird because you guys doing all this talking pulled up stakes and bugged out a long time ago.

Ferd,

No comments about Democrats, because your not one. No comments about Catholics because your not one. No critique of any group you are not a member of.

BeenThinkin
09-16-2013, 04:14 PM
Bullseye. Ultra cons are NEVER interested in genuine dialogue and questions about scriptural exegesis. And for good reason. Most (if not all) of us former UCs that did dive deeper in the scriptures had to make some adjustments. There is some humble pie to be eaten and not everyone has developed the taste.


Jason..... please be careful how you start out your responses. I read the first word WRONG! Had to repent and reread it "Bullseye!" :heeheehee

Been Thinkin

Chateau d'If
09-16-2013, 04:19 PM
The calls to "let it go" serve to ensure the status quo.

The refusal to listen to the audio is symptomatic of fear.

This audio is remarkable. It would be great to have it in book format.

Jason B
09-16-2013, 04:32 PM
I suppose because DBK hasnt called you up and given you a personal mia culpa you know there is no intent to bring things to a better frame?

LOL.

You guys want the UPCI to be something it never was. You want it to be the AOG with Jebus baptism if the whim hits to get something wet.

well. that isnt what it ever was. It isnt even what the PCI bunch was at the merger (I might know a thing or two about that seeing as I come from one of the very strong PCI churches that produced some of the PCI and the UPCIs early leaders and have spent some time talking to some of those fellers that were at the merger)...

but hey, you guys keep up the digging up bones and wringing hands and talking about what the Org ought to do.... which is weird because you guys doing all this talking pulled up stakes and bugged out a long time ago.

Well Ferd I haven't been UPC in about 5 years, and the chances of ever going back are minimal, realistically speaking. I'm just passing information along about what I think should be done. For me to this point in my life it was the only org I was ever "in" (before I was Pentecostal I went to a Baptist church for about 4 months, but didn't know anything about denomination, though ALL Baptist churches were the same), and so since I haven't joined any other fellowship to this point, I still have an interest in the UPC.

I think a lot of us who spent good years of our lives attempting to build that fellowship up whether it was pastoring churches, teaching Bible studies, or just giving to this cause and that one, still have some interest in the org. I still would like to see the UPC grow, even though I'm not in it. I want my friend's churches to grow. I want them to see the "apostolic revival" that's been talked about for years. Why do you get so offended when ex-UPCers talk about it? Just because Dan got militant you think everyone is that way?



PS- You asked me what I though the org ought to do, then slam me for giving my opinion?

Ferd
09-16-2013, 05:59 PM
Ferd,

No comments about Democrats, because your not one. No comments about Catholics because your not one. No critique of any group you are not a member of.

actually Baron, there is lots of stuff going on in the UPCI right now that is fare game.

You realize the UPCI has on the table for this GC striking TV from the manual right?

see right there is something we can line up on and take shots over. we might even find common ground.

Hey, since we are on the subject of things i dont talk about... there is a group down in Houston led by the Jones brothers. They are building something and at its core are some things I am not partial to.

You have NEVER ONCE heard me say one thing about them. OR what they are doing. I could take shots. I could say all manner of things. I could dig around in the graveyard and make some folk blush and posts would fly.... I could even get the AFF mgmt all aflutter deciding what to delete etc.

but I dont. Im not interested in that kind of nonsense. it benifits no one. It doesn't make me better. It doesnt advance the kingdom. It doesnt make the things I believe more (or less) valid.

Build something Brother! Building is awesome. and stay away from those infected with the bug to destroy.

Ferd
09-16-2013, 06:03 PM
The calls to "let it go" serve to ensure the status quo.

The refusal to listen to the audio is symptomatic of fear.

This audio is remarkable. It would be great to have it in book format.

im the one saying "let it go."
im the one saying "holding on to the past will prevent you from moving into your future."
i am the one saying destroyers never build anything worth anything.


and I have listened to the sermon. I agree with a good bit of it. I love YL and have since i was a small kid. I respect him. I am happy to see what God has done in his life since all this happened.

I am saying to YOU that the infection of bitterness is a terrible thing that will kill a man as sure as cancer will.

Praxeas
09-16-2013, 07:36 PM
im the one saying "let it go."
im the one saying "holding on to the past will prevent you from moving into your future."
i am the one saying destroyers never build anything worth anything.


and I have listened to the sermon. I agree with a good bit of it. I love YL and have since i was a small kid. I respect him. I am happy to see what God has done in his life since all this happened.

I am saying to YOU that the infection of bitterness is a terrible thing that will kill a man as sure as cancer will.
I agree. Some criticisms are objective and constructive and others are just about criticizing for the sake of doing it or out of bitterness

FlamingZword
09-16-2013, 09:35 PM
You realize the UPCI has on the table for this GC striking TV from the manual right?

I just think it is a horrible idea, (yes I do have a TV, not that I watch much) but do you realize that if a child has been always deprived of candy and then that child is finally allowed to eat as much as he wants that child will not know when to stop.

I see many UPCI folks that have never seen TV before in the same situation, they will not know how to regulate their TV watching, many of them will become addicted to it and it will be a horrible thing for them.

I learned the self-discipline to watch only what I wanted and when I wanted, that is something that has never been taught to the poor UPCI brethren.

CC1
09-16-2013, 10:18 PM
I just think it is a horrible idea, (yes I do have a TV, not that I watch much) but do you realize that if a child has been always deprived of candy and then that child is finally allowed to eat as much as he wants that child will not know when to stop.

I see many UPCI folks that have never seen TV before in the same situation, they will not know how to regulate their TV watching, many of them will become addicted to it and it will be a horrible thing for them.

I learned the self-discipline to watch only what I wanted and when I wanted, that is something that has never been taught to the poor UPCI brethren.

So how many UPC folks do you think there are that have not watched tv? (I think not many).

Of those few that may not currently own or watch tv if they are hard core just because the org. removes the restriction from the manual or whatever does not mean they have a preacher who is going to stop preaching against it and let them do it.

A change mostly affects the legal status of licensed ministers who own a television. The new rule would keep them from violating their ministerial oath by having a tv in their home.

Jason B
09-16-2013, 10:31 PM
I just think it is a horrible idea, (yes I do have a TV, not that I watch much) but do you realize that if a child has been always deprived of candy and then that child is finally allowed to eat as much as he wants that child will not know when to stop.

I see many UPCI folks that have never seen TV before in the same situation, they will not know how to regulate their TV watching, many of them will become addicted to it and it will be a horrible thing for them.

I learned the self-discipline to watch only what I wanted and when I wanted, that is something that has never been taught to the poor UPCI brethren.

I agree 1000%. Seems like church films who never had a TV do not know where to draw the line about what to watch. I was raised in the world and watched all kinds of ungodly things, but when I received the Holy Ghost I quit watching those things. I didn't know I wasn't "supposed" to have a TV for several months after this since I was a new convert. I never had a conviction about TV (but did have conviction to cease watching several shows and movies) but got rid if my TV because my pastor taught me to do so and plus I was working towards a license. After about 5 years I did get a TV for video purposes then after another 3 years got TV channels (largely because now I knew of UPC preachers/pastors with satellite TV in their homes). But since I was raised in the world when I brought the TV back on the house we maintained the same discipline we had before.

Our viewing habits would probably be considered too strict for most church people. We don't watch movies rated above PG (no pg 13) pretty much only watch Food Network, History, Discovery, Fox News, CNN, and sports. Nothing with murder, sex, nudity, drug use, etc. Recently I had taken a liking to Pawn Stars on History channel but felt bad about watching it because of some of the language and cut it out. Its not that I dont like the show, but I don t feel comfortable allowing multiple profanities blaring in my house. It takes discipline and not everyones standard will be the same.
Some think I'm too strict others probably think I'm way out. I understand others may view some things I think are questionable, but what I don't understand us when Christians entertain themselves with ungodly movies that glorify drug use, violence, fornication, vampires, killing contests, grisly crimes, shows that revolve around the tearing down of the family glorifying the gay agenda, etc. I don't get that and I don't think those are matters of "liberty" I don't see how that doesn't violate Phil 4:8, James 4:4, 1 John 2:15-17. I'm not trying to deflect though from this thread but probably just hijacked it.

Baron1710
09-16-2013, 10:47 PM
I agree. Some criticisms are objective and constructive and others are just about criticizing for the sake of doing it or out of bitterness

And there it is...we are all just bitter.

RandyWayne
09-16-2013, 10:48 PM
So how many UPC folks do you think there are that have not watched tv? (I think not many).

Of those few that may not currently own or watch tv if they are hard core just because the org. removes the restriction from the manual or whatever does not mean they have a preacher who is going to stop preaching against it and let them do it.

A change mostly affects the legal status of licensed ministers who own a television. The new rule would keep them from violating their ministerial oath by having a tv in their home.

Today, there is probably a VERY small % of org members that have never owned one at some point. Although during our stint in the UPC (the 80's) we had a number of families who were born and raised in the church who never had one. In fact if you mentioned John Wayne or Jimmy Stewart, they had NO idea who you were talking about. They would also make a big deal about NOT walking through the areas of Sears and JCPenny's where electronics were sold lest they catch a glance of said devices.

phareztamar
09-16-2013, 10:57 PM
They would also make a big deal about NOT walking through the areas of Sears and JCPenny's where electronics were sold lest they catch a glance of said devices.

Now that's hard core.

Sweet Pea
09-16-2013, 11:12 PM
Now that's hard core.


No, "hard core" are those who put blankets, towels, coats or some other covering over the TV in motel rooms. :icecream

RandyWayne
09-16-2013, 11:17 PM
No, "hard core" are those who put blankets, towels, coats or some other covering over the TV in motel rooms. :icecream

A few did THAT as well!!

I remember one incident during my VERY brief stint on the bible quiz team where the "adult" assigned to our hotel room (where about 6 of us were crammed into plus him) covered the set up. Of course he was a fairly new convert (not NEW new but was only in the church a couple of years at that point) and a "pastor pleaser". In the corporate world, he would have been known as a classic brown noser.

RandyWayne
09-16-2013, 11:22 PM
Now that's hard core.

Oh, they were. If there was a meeting on the churches article of faith statement, half would NOT have objected to adding "and remove your television" to Acts 2:38.

The hard part for me was that I personally watched very little television even before I was forced to give it up, but I was completely addicted to Doctor Who at the time (the Tom Baker era!) which was a whole stinkin 90 minutes, once a week. It was my one release from endless church services and Junior High school.

endtimer
09-17-2013, 07:12 AM
I just think it is a horrible idea, (yes I do have a TV, not that I watch much) but do you realize that if a child has been always deprived of candy and then that child is finally allowed to eat as much as he wants that child will not know when to stop.

I see many UPCI folks that have never seen TV before in the same situation, they will not know how to regulate their TV watching, many of them will become addicted to it and it will be a horrible thing for them.

I learned the self-discipline to watch only what I wanted and when I wanted, that is something that has never been taught to the poor UPCI brethren.

Good thing the Holy Ghost is a teacher. Which is why I think its a good Idea to strike some of these antiquated rules out of the manual. Somebody might actually have to pray through for guidance instead of consulting the UPCI book of rules.

Jason B
09-17-2013, 07:19 AM
Good thing the Holy Ghost is a teacher. Which is why I think its a good Idea to strike some of these antiquated rules out of the manual. Somebody might actually have to pray through for guidance instead of consulting the UPCI book of rules.

Amen. I think its right thing for them to do for this reason.

Ferd
09-17-2013, 07:38 AM
I just think it is a horrible idea, (yes I do have a TV, not that I watch much) but do you realize that if a child has been always deprived of candy and then that child is finally allowed to eat as much as he wants that child will not know when to stop.

I see many UPCI folks that have never seen TV before in the same situation, they will not know how to regulate their TV watching, many of them will become addicted to it and it will be a horrible thing for them.

I learned the self-discipline to watch only what I wanted and when I wanted, that is something that has never been taught to the poor UPCI brethren.

The preachers that are preaching against TV arent doing it because of the manual. They wont stop because the manual stops either.

steps in the right direction arent bad ideas.

FlamingZword
09-17-2013, 07:47 AM
Good thing the Holy Ghost is a teacher. Which is why I think its a good Idea to strike some of these antiquated rules out of the manual. Somebody might actually have to pray through for guidance instead of consulting the UPCI book of rules.

The longer I serve the Lord the less interested I am in the world.
I do have a TV, but I go days without watching anything in it.

If I am interested in a documentary or a show, I simply use Netflix and avoid all the commercials. (I hate commercials, especially if they have nothing to do with me, commercials just waste my time, I do not want commercials, if I need something I simply go to the store and get it, my anti-commercial rant)

As far as I am concerned the TV can go into the dumpster, however my wife might not be so inclined, she will probably make me take it out of the dumpster and bring it back, she needs her daily soap opera dosage. :heeheehee

BeenThinkin
09-17-2013, 08:20 AM
The longer I serve the Lord the less interested I am in the world.
I do have a TV, but I go days without watching anything in it.

If I am interested in a documentary or a show, I simply use Netflix and avoid all the commercials. (I hate commercials, especially if they have nothing to do with me, commercials just waste my time, I do not want commercials, if I need something I simply go to the store and get it, my anti-commercial rant)

As far as I am concerned the TV can go into the dumpster, however my wife might not be so inclined, she will probably make me take it out of the dumpster and bring it back, she needs her daily soap opera dosage. :heeheehee


FlamingZword, you better hang on to that TV. After that last paragraph the TV may be all the company that you have for awhile. :heeheehee :happydance

Been Thinkin

RandyWayne
09-17-2013, 08:26 AM
The longer I serve the Lord the less interested I am in the world.
I do have a TV, but I go days without watching anything in it.

If I am interested in a documentary or a show, I simply use Netflix and avoid all the commercials. (I hate commercials, especially if they have nothing to do with me, commercials just waste my time, I do not want commercials, if I need something I simply go to the store and get it, my anti-commercial rant)

As far as I am concerned the TV can go into the dumpster, however my wife might not be so inclined, she will probably make me take it out of the dumpster and bring it back, she needs her daily soap opera dosage. :heeheehee

MY wife's current obsession is catching up on the previous 8 seasons of Criminal Minds.

I'm partial to the "unexplained" documentary/semi-documentary type shows myself such as the one I posted a week or so ago called Joe Rogan Questions Everything as well as the Ghost Hunter type ones. I NEVER actively just sit and watch them though, rather I have them on while doing something else.

charity
09-17-2013, 08:29 AM
Here is a youtube link for easier sharing and access...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbE1dhHrZCo&feature=youtu.be

OldPathsII
09-17-2013, 09:49 AM
I'll stand by my earlier statement that Loren Yadon's life and ministry was destroyed. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the immediate devastation that took place, the loss of everything that was close or dear. Did he rebuild, put things back together? Of course he did, he's a real man of God.

But to be dismissive of "His life and ministry was destroyed" is to be ignorant of that facts.

To read some of the posts about "get over it".......you guys have no clue. None. Zilch. You're stuck in a time warp, a parallel universe, that has no idea what the real world is like. You have no idea what it's like to be hugged and praised and unknowingly be knifed in the back at the same time, to have everything that's ever meant ANYTHING to you, stolen from you in one day and be left standing with NOTHING.

And then you get on here and rip guys like Dan Alicea because he's "Bitter". The truth is, he's trumpeting the truth and you don't like the key he's playing in. PO resorts to making fun of Baron's profile picture because PO has no real content to respond with.

You want to pretend that religious systems and denominations.....and the UPC is just one of them.....haven't destroyed people, haven't driven them to take their own lives, haven't run people through character shredders just to further their own systematic agendas, you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend.

Keep pretending. Your system is falling apart and will continue to until there's almost nothing left. At some point you'll need a new bandwagon on which to jump.

OldPathsII
09-17-2013, 09:55 AM
And here's the correct link. The one above doesn't work. There are well over 700 listens on Soundcloud before the YouTube link went up.

http://youtu.be/NbE1dhHrZCo

Ferd
09-17-2013, 09:58 AM
I'll stand by my earlier statement that Loren Yadon's life and ministry was destroyed. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the immediate devastation that took place, the loss of everything that was close or dear. Did he rebuild, put things back together? Of course he did, he's a real man of God.

But to be dismissive of "His life and ministry was destroyed" is to be ignorant of that facts.

To read some of the posts about "get over it".......you guys have no clue. None. Zilch. You're stuck in a time warp, a parallel universe, that has no idea what the real world is like. You have no idea what it's like to be hugged and praised and unknowingly be knifed in the back at the same time, to have everything that's ever meant ANYTHING to you, stolen from you in one day and be left standing with NOTHING.

And then you get on here and rip guys like Dan Alicea because he's "Bitter". The truth is, he's trumpeting the truth and you don't like the key he's playing in. PO resorts to making fun of Baron's profile picture because PO has no real content to respond with.

You want to pretend that religious systems and denominations.....and the UPC is just one of them.....haven't destroyed people, haven't driven them to take their own lives, haven't run people through character shredders just to further their own systematic agendas, you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend.

Keep pretending. Your system is falling apart and will continue to until there's almost nothing left. At some point you'll need a new bandwagon on which to jump.

LOL. your funny. about as accurate as a North Korean missle but funny for it.

Im the guy that your talking about. How about you just say it?

exactly how is it that I am stuck in a time warp when you are the one living in the past?

As for me not knowing what it is like to be stabbed in the back? I would draw your attention to the following. This is my life. what i LIVED.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=1491


yea, I know a thing or two about having your life turned upside down by preachers. ive lived it. so... you are wrong on all counts.

YOU are the one living in the past. Bitterness is a nasty taskmaster and those bent on destruction will NEVER EVER BUILD ANYTHING.

Old Path II, if you have a problem with me, call me out. say what you want. im good with that. and I stand by every word Ive written here. EVERY WORD.

Pressing-On
09-17-2013, 10:19 AM
And then you get on here and rip guys like Dan Alicea because he's "Bitter". The truth is, he's trumpeting the truth and you don't like the key he's playing in. PO resorts to making fun of Baron's profile picture because PO has no real content to respond with.

My remark about his hair was something we joked about some time past.

My real content is this:

I have been stabbed in the back, lied to, had my children treated badly, given money that was used for something else other then what was intended, position given to someone else without telling me and my husband about it first, and other things I refuse to speak of here.

I KNOW what it is like to feel real anger - anger that makes you afraid you can't lay it down. I know what it feels like to wonder if you are capable of forgiveness. So don't tell me I don't have any real content. I don't have to splash my wounds around on the internet for others to massage me over it. I just need God to speak to me, to heal me and allow me to get up and move on.

At the end of the day, I am wise enough to know that I will stand naked before Him on that great day and will have to answer for myself - ALONE. I won't have the luxury of saying, "But, but, but..."

I have His Word and His Spirit - I am without excuse.

What is yours?

Pressing-On
09-17-2013, 10:22 AM
LOL. your funny. about as accurate as a North Korean missle but funny for it.

Im the guy that your talking about. How about you just say it?

exactly how is it that I am stuck in a time warp when you are the one living in the past?

As for me not knowing what it is like to be stabbed in the back? I would draw your attention to the following. This is my life. what i LIVED.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=1491


yea, I know a thing or two about having your life turned upside down by preachers. ive lived it. so... you are wrong on all counts.

YOU are the one living in the past. Bitterness is a nasty taskmaster and those bent on destruction will NEVER EVER BUILD ANYTHING.

Old Path II, if you have a problem with me, call me out. say what you want. im good with that. and I stand by every word Ive written here. EVERY WORD.
:thumbsup :thumbsup

Ferd
09-17-2013, 10:24 AM
least it get lost here. I love, honor and respect Brother LY.

I just hate that he is being misused by those who seek to destroy. it is sad.

Sweet Pea
09-17-2013, 11:09 AM
least it get lost here. I love, honor and respect Brother LY.

I just hate that he is being misused by those who seek to destroy. it is sad.

:thumbsup

Esaias
09-17-2013, 11:26 AM
Oh, they were. If there was a meeting on the churches article of faith statement, half would NOT have objected to adding "and remove your television" to Acts 2:38.

The hard part for me was that I personally watched very little television even before I was forced to give it up, but I was completely addicted to Doctor Who at the time (the Tom Baker era!) which was a whole stinkin 90 minutes, once a week. It was my one release from endless church services and Junior High school.

TV is an abomination.

However, I suspect there is a definite exception for the 4th Doctor, Faulty Towers, and maybe (just maybe) the old Tom and Jerry (Ren and Stimpy would be included under that last one on general principles).

Baron1710
09-17-2013, 11:58 AM
least it get lost here. I love, honor and respect Brother LY.

I just hate that he is being misused by those who seek to destroy. it is sad.

How is it being used to destroy?

Calling attention to a sermon is trying to destroy?

Ferd
09-17-2013, 12:28 PM
How is it being used to destroy?

Calling attention to a sermon is trying to destroy?

seriously? seriously you are asking that question?

You know full well why that was brought up. THis is all about keeping the bash the UPCI thing alive and well. period.

bring as much embarrisment etc as possible. why the need to revisit past wounds? what is the benifit? peeling scabs, digging up long dead skeletons does no one any good. What gives?

Baron1710
09-17-2013, 12:59 PM
seriously? seriously you are asking that question?

You know full well why that was brought up. THis is all about keeping the bash the UPCI thing alive and well. period.

bring as much embarrisment etc as possible. why the need to revisit past wounds? what is the benifit? peeling scabs, digging up long dead skeletons does no one any good. What gives?

Well, I do know why it was brought up. Several of us feel this is a message that is a historical marker in the life of an organization. The message and the events surrounding it set the trajectory of my religious life.

Ferd, the attitude that those of us who have generations in this movement ought to walk away and never say another word about t is baffling.

Ferd
09-17-2013, 01:36 PM
Well, I do know why it was brought up. Several of us feel this is a message that is a historical marker in the life of an organization. The message and the events surrounding it set the trajectory of my religious life.

Ferd, the attitude that those of us who have generations in this movement ought to walk away and never say another word about t is baffling.

Baron, I hope you know that I respect you. We have posted together for a long time. I dont recall us ever having all out war. In fact we have been on the same side almost as often as on opposite sides....


I think my history and attitude on the subject provides the context for my comments here.

You know some of us have been posting since a lot of these things happened....or at least within proximity.

I could certainly say a lot more about it. I could tell you all about a conversation I had with a family member of the fellow in question right after the event at a Because of the Times. I know exactly how tumultuous all that was for the whole family.

Nor have I suggested that he was wrong in what he said, nor have I suggested that the forcecs behind the infernal document were right.

But Bro, we are now 20 years removed. Here we are. All these years later and we are going to dig it all up and review the whole thing?

You guys walked away. I am 5th gen Apostolic. my family was PCI before there was a UPCI. I didnt walk away. you left me and seriously I have more in commone with guys like you than I do with some of the supersillycons that ive been left with.... maybe I have my own issues with you walking away? I dunno.

I do know that from my inside perspective, Im glad I stayed. I see things happening that encourrage me. Im peeved when I think of my friends who got impatient and couldnt stay around long enough to affect the kind of change that would make the org better.

i get a bit sad when I think of friends who walked away because when they figured out that some of the junk they were taught wasnt really in the bible, they ended updeciding EVERYTHING they were taught was wrong and the packed it in and turned to stuff as unbiblical as the stuff they walked away from.

And yea, there are some hanging out with you that i do not trust. I dont trust them because I know what they want is destruction. What they want is to break what they have come to hate. period. This thread isnt the first time Ive said that. It wont be the last time.

I am protective. I admit that. I have something at stake here. I have kids I want to hand this thing over to. I given 20 years of ministry. Ive suffered and I have been utterly completely blessed. I fully admit I love the UPCI and am protective of it. WARTS AND ALL.

We arent going to agree on this. I hope this post gives you more insight in why I am the way I am. And why I have said the things I have said. In my mind, there is no question why this thread was started and it wasnt for some noble purpose. im going to stand up and say so when I see this junk.

I love ya bro. Im not against you and I dont need you to think like I think for me respect you and your walk with God. Just dont expect me to stand by and watch my own be attacked. Especially when the leaders who were the leaders when all this happened are dead and gone.

peace.

StillStanding
09-17-2013, 01:47 PM
LY's message is historic and soooo prophetic! Hearing this message and looking back, it's sad that so many ignored his warning and instead threw him under the bus and silenced him. Where would the UPCI be today if they had heard the trumpet of prophecy and did away with the affirmation statement? It's sad to think about.

God will always have a people, but now they are more scattered and have assimilated into other factions of Christianity. Maybe God planned it this way!

OldPathsII
09-17-2013, 02:27 PM
LOL. your funny. about as accurate as a North Korean missle but funny for it.

Im the guy that your talking about. How about you just say it?

exactly how is it that I am stuck in a time warp when you are the one living in the past?

As for me not knowing what it is like to be stabbed in the back? I would draw your attention to the following. This is my life. what i LIVED.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=1491


yea, I know a thing or two about having your life turned upside down by preachers. ive lived it. so... you are wrong on all counts.

YOU are the one living in the past. Bitterness is a nasty taskmaster and those bent on destruction will NEVER EVER BUILD ANYTHING.

Old Path II, if you have a problem with me, call me out. say what you want. im good with that. and I stand by every word Ive written here. EVERY WORD.


You have an over-developed sense of self-importance if you think this is only about you.

OldPathsII
09-17-2013, 02:29 PM
My remark about his hair was something we joked about some time past.

My real content is this:

I have been stabbed in the back, lied to, had my children treated badly, given money that was used for something else other then what was intended, position given to someone else without telling me and my husband about it first, and other things I refuse to speak of here.

I KNOW what it is like to feel real anger - anger that makes you afraid you can't lay it down. I know what it feels like to wonder if you are capable of forgiveness. So don't tell me I don't have any real content. I don't have to splash my wounds around on the internet for others to massage me over it. I just need God to speak to me, to heal me and allow me to get up and move on.

At the end of the day, I am wise enough to know that I will stand naked before Him on that great day and will have to answer for myself - ALONE. I won't have the luxury of saying, "But, but, but..."

I have His Word and His Spirit - I am without excuse.

What is yours?


We've all been hit by ..............from people. From churches. Bleep happens. But when it's systematic? THAT'S a different playing field, and this is a SYSTEMATIC problem, not an isolated incident.

Ferd
09-17-2013, 02:30 PM
You have an over-developed sense of self-importance if you think this is only about you.

whatever dude. you are the one living in the past.


suck it up. your just upset because we quit buying the junk you guys have been selling for however long.


get a life and move along.

OldPathsII
09-17-2013, 02:33 PM
seriously? seriously you are asking that question?

You know full well why that was brought up. THis is all about keeping the bash the UPCI thing alive and well. period.

bring as much embarrisment etc as possible. why the need to revisit past wounds? what is the benifit? peeling scabs, digging up long dead skeletons does no one any good. What gives?

Moronic. You sound like Mark McGwire before the congressional committee.

Ted Bundy at trial...."Why do you all wanna keep bringing up the past?"

Boston Marathon bomber: "Hey, that was the past, why the need to bring it up?"

bin Ladin: "Why are you all so worked up, that tower thing was 12 years ago."

Isn't it interesting that we all want to ignore the part of the past that embarrasses us? Azusa Street? Heck Yeah, let's talk about that!!

You know, I don't think I'm gonna read the bible anymore. It's part of the past.

Ferd
09-17-2013, 02:37 PM
Moronic. You sound like Mark McGwire before the congressional committee.

Ted Bundy at trial...."Why do you all wanna keep bringing up the past?"

Boston Marathon bomber: "Hey, that was the past, why the need to bring it up?"

bin Ladin: "Why are you all so worked up, that tower thing was 12 years ago."

Isn't it interesting that we all want to ignore the part of the past that embarrasses us? Azusa Street? Heck Yeah, let's talk about that!!

You know, I don't think I'm gonna read the bible anymore. It's part of the past.

And what do you want? some full accounting from the dead guys that caused the problems? get real dude.

you guys just want to cause trouble. You just want to keep the sturm und drang all worked up.


make sure everyone knows how evil the upci is. well some of us arent buying the lies/halftruths/twisted nonsense and 20 year old sad stories. Because we have been here all this time and see the truth.

YOU are PETTY and small and all you have left is to hold on to the past and hope someone will listen.

Baron1710
09-17-2013, 02:47 PM
Baron, I hope you know that I respect you. We have posted together for a long time. I dont recall us ever having all out war. In fact we have been on the same side almost as often as on opposite sides....


I think my history and attitude on the subject provides the context for my comments here.

You know some of us have been posting since a lot of these things happened....or at least within proximity.

I could certainly say a lot more about it. I could tell you all about a conversation I had with a family member of the fellow in question right after the event at a Because of the Times. I know exactly how tumultuous all that was for the whole family.

Nor have I suggested that he was wrong in what he said, nor have I suggested that the forcecs behind the infernal document were right.

But Bro, we are now 20 years removed. Here we are. All these years later and we are going to dig it all up and review the whole thing?

You guys walked away. I am 5th gen Apostolic. my family was PCI before there was a UPCI. I didnt walk away. you left me and seriously I have more in commone with guys like you than I do with some of the supersillycons that ive been left with.... maybe I have my own issues with you walking away? I dunno.

I do know that from my inside perspective, Im glad I stayed. I see things happening that encourrage me. Im peeved when I think of my friends who got impatient and couldnt stay around long enough to affect the kind of change that would make the org better.

i get a bit sad when I think of friends who walked away because when they figured out that some of the junk they were taught wasnt really in the bible, they ended updeciding EVERYTHING they were taught was wrong and the packed it in and turned to stuff as unbiblical as the stuff they walked away from.

And yea, there are some hanging out with you that i do not trust. I dont trust them because I know what they want is destruction. What they want is to break what they have come to hate. period. This thread isnt the first time Ive said that. It wont be the last time.

I am protective. I admit that. I have something at stake here. I have kids I want to hand this thing over to. I given 20 years of ministry. Ive suffered and I have been utterly completely blessed. I fully admit I love the UPCI and am protective of it. WARTS AND ALL.

We arent going to agree on this. I hope this post gives you more insight in why I am the way I am. And why I have said the things I have said. In my mind, there is no question why this thread was started and it wasnt for some noble purpose. im going to stand up and say so when I see this junk.

I love ya bro. Im not against you and I dont need you to think like I think for me respect you and your walk with God. Just dont expect me to stand by and watch my own be attacked. Especially when the leaders who were the leaders when all this happened are dead and gone.

peace.

Ferd,

I just fundamentally disagree that we should bury the past. We should forgive an move on as individuals but that doesn't mean we shouldn't hold the organizations feet to the fire. They say you can't affect it from the outside, I beg to differ.

Chateau d'If
09-17-2013, 03:11 PM
I'll stand by my earlier statement that Loren Yadon's life and ministry was destroyed. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the immediate devastation that took place, the loss of everything that was close or dear. Did he rebuild, put things back together? Of course he did, he's a real man of God.

But to be dismissive of "His life and ministry was destroyed" is to be ignorant of that facts.

To read some of the posts about "get over it".......you guys have no clue. None. Zilch. You're stuck in a time warp, a parallel universe, that has no idea what the real world is like. You have no idea what it's like to be hugged and praised and unknowingly be knifed in the back at the same time, to have everything that's ever meant ANYTHING to you, stolen from you in one day and be left standing with NOTHING.

And then you get on here and rip guys like Dan Alicea because he's "Bitter". The truth is, he's trumpeting the truth and you don't like the key he's playing in. PO resorts to making fun of Baron's profile picture because PO has no real content to respond with.

You want to pretend that religious systems and denominations.....and the UPC is just one of them.....haven't destroyed people, haven't driven them to take their own lives, haven't run people through character shredders just to further their own systematic agendas, you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend.

Keep pretending. Your system is falling apart and will continue to until there's almost nothing left. At some point you'll need a new bandwagon on which to jump.

Nice post.

It is very arrogant and unfeeling to dismiss the abuse that others have experienced as inconsequential and unimportant.

It is also ironic that Ferd and others want everyone to move on yet they continue to bring up their own hurts regarding Dan Alicea from several years ago.

Pressing-On
09-17-2013, 03:34 PM
We've all been hit by ..............from people. From churches. Bleep happens. But when it's systematic? THAT'S a different playing field, and this is a SYSTEMATIC problem, not an isolated incident.

This thread reminds me of The Count of Monte Cristo - Edmond Dantes is back, going to get revenge and going to get my girl back too. :heeheehee

OldPathsII
09-17-2013, 03:37 PM
We've all been hit by ..............from people. From churches. Bleep happens. But when it's systematic? THAT'S a different playing field, and this is a SYSTEMATIC problem, not an isolated incident.

Evidently, I said a forbidden word. It wasn't that big of a deal, sorry, I don't post here much. It was a euphemism for "bad stuff".

OldPathsII
09-17-2013, 03:48 PM
And what do you want? some full accounting from the dead guys that caused the problems? get real dude.

you guys just want to cause trouble. You just want to keep the sturm und drang all worked up.


make sure everyone knows how evil the upci is. well some of us arent buying the lies/halftruths/twisted nonsense and 20 year old sad stories. Because we have been here all this time and see the truth.

YOU are PETTY and small and all you have left is to hold on to the past and hope someone will listen.

Unfortunately for you and others that want to silence the truth, people ARE listening.

And Ferdina, not one single word I have said is a lie, half-truth, or twisted nonsense.

I understand your protests. You're standing on a system who's house is built upon the sand of intimidation, manipulation, bullying, threats, and cover-up. I'm sure watching the system you adore, splinter and fraction into many pieces over the last 20 years is frustrating, but the seams are coming undone, to the point they'll manipulate church and ministerial numbers so massive losses won't be publicly known.

Contrary to what you and Mark McGwire think, the past matters. It should matter to you because if Loren Yadon's words had been heeded, tens and tens of thousands of people would still be in the UPC that are not only gone forever, but their children, their children's children, and generations to come.

The Westberg boys blew it and those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Pressing-On
09-17-2013, 03:48 PM
Evidently, I said a forbidden word. It wasn't that big of a deal, sorry, I don't post here much. It was a euphemism for "bad stuff".

Certainly. And you were saying - you want to change us from without? What type of change were you looking for - the forbidden?

OldPathsII
09-17-2013, 03:50 PM
whatever dude. you are the one living in the past.


suck it up. your just upset because we quit buying the junk you guys have been selling for however long.


get a life and move along.


:heeheehee No thanks.

OldPathsII
09-17-2013, 03:54 PM
Nice post.

It is very arrogant and unfeeling to dismiss the abuse that others have experienced as inconsequential and unimportant.

It is also ironic that Ferd and others want everyone to move on yet they continue to bring up their own hurts regarding Dan Alicea from several years ago.

Ferd and gang want to ignore the absolute hell on earth this man went through. He was hugged, fussed over, told it was the greatest message in 40 years, and then fired and destroyed by the man who said the words.

How easy it would be for heresy to prevail if we allowed religious systems to escape the truth of their abuses. Thanks to people like Dan Alicea, silence isn't an option.

OldPathsII
09-17-2013, 03:58 PM
Certainly. And you were saying - you want to change us from without? What type of change were you looking for - the forbidden?

You don't have to change if you don't want to. That's YOUR business, not mine. I'll I'm doing is speaking for a dearly good man, a tender-hearted, gentle, kind, wonderful man. He was tossed out like a used up bag of trash for political gain and I'm just here to say, "He's a great man who was treated less than a dog."

You can do whatever you want with the info. Stay, leave, change, I don't give a hoot. But you should at least ask, "If they would do that to a wonderful man who doesn't have a hurtful bone in his body and wouldn't hurt a flea, I wonder if they'd do the same thing to me?"

Sarah
09-17-2013, 04:18 PM
Ferd,

I just fundamentally disagree that we should bury the past. We should forgive an move on as individuals but that doesn't mean we shouldn't hold the organizations feet to the fire. They say you can't affect it from the outside, I beg to differ.

So you do have an agenda!

How are you wanting to 'affect' the UPCI? Would you like to see it completely destroyed?

To make a long story short, Baron, y'all were simply voted out. When push came to shove, there were simply more 'three steppers', as it's called here, than 'one steppers'. I'm sorry that people were hurt that had given years to the organization. But for the life of me, I can't see why they ever agreed to become one in the first place. Too far apart when it comes to the 'plan of salvation'.

Some of you seem to have wasted years, trying to 'hold the organization's feet to the fire'.
Don't know what you've accomplished during this time, but it seems to me that you've spent a lot of time and energy trying to 'get back at the organization'.

I think it would be liberating for all of you to forget about the bad old UPCI. Do something productive...like start your own organization!

Baron1710
09-17-2013, 04:46 PM
So you do have an agenda!

How are you wanting to 'affect' the UPCI? Would you like to see it completely destroyed?

To make a long story short, Baron, y'all were simply voted out. When push came to shove, there were simply more 'three steppers', as it's called here, than 'one steppers'. I'm sorry that people were hurt that had given years to the organization. But for the life of me, I can't see why they ever agreed to become one in the first place. Too far apart when it comes to the 'plan of salvation'.

Some of you seem to have wasted years, trying to 'hold the organization's feet to the fire'.
Don't know what you've accomplished during this time, but it seems to me that you've spent a lot of time and energy trying to 'get back at the organization'.

I think it would be liberating for all of you to forget about the bad old UPCI. Do something productive...like start your own organization!

No agenda. Just truth. Seems like Jack Nicholson needs to make an appearance.

Esaias
09-17-2013, 04:50 PM
No agenda. Just truth. Seems like Jack Nicholson needs to make an appearance.

Here comes Randy with a pic in 5...4....3...2...

RandyWayne
09-17-2013, 04:52 PM
Here comes Randy with a pic in 5...4....3...2...

Naw. Not when EB will come up with an animated one.

And while I've made some surface comments on some side issues, I've been out of the UPC for far too long and don't really feel like I have a dog in this fight when it comes to history of the org.

tv1a
09-17-2013, 04:55 PM
OPII is correct. I was exposed to the inner workings of the mothership. The lies and character assassination of the Westburg influenced crowd. I read Fudge's book when I was still in the mothership. Daniel's motive is to preserve history that obviously the powers that be who run the mothership wants buried.

The million dollar question is why a religious institution who emphasizes truth at any costs lies about its past and about integral members of its past.

Ferd and gang want to ignore the absolute hell on earth this man went through. He was hugged, fussed over, told it was the greatest message in 40 years, and then fired and destroyed by the man who said the words.

How easy it would be for heresy to prevail if we allowed religious systems to escape the truth of their abuses. Thanks to people like Dan Alicea, silence isn't an option.

Originalist
09-17-2013, 05:22 PM
OPII is correct. I was exposed to the inner workings of the mothership. The lies and character assassination of the Westburg influenced crowd. I read Fudge's book when I was still in the mothership. Daniel's motive is to preserve history that obviously the powers that be who run the mothership wants buried.

The million dollar question is why a religious institution who emphasizes truth at any costs lies about its past and about integral members of its past.

I think Fudge's book is a misrepresentation to the other extreme, though some might say it fits their personal experience very well.

As for me, since leaving the AoG in 1993 to join the UPCI, I can honestly say that the most powerful messages I've ever heard about the cross have been from UPC pulpits.

Baron1710
09-17-2013, 05:26 PM
I think Fudge's book is a misrepresentation to the other extreme, though some might say it fits their personal experience very well.

As for me, since leaving the AoG in 1993 to join the UPCI, I can honestly say that the most powerful messages I've ever heard about the cross have been from UPC pulpits.

No misrepresentation. The point of the title wasn't that no UPC preacher preaches about the cross, but that those that hold the water/spirit doctrine have no need for a cross.

Sarah
09-17-2013, 05:31 PM
No misrepresentation. The point of the title wasn't that no UPC preacher preaches about the cross, but that those that hold the water/spirit doctrine have no need for a cross.

Have no need for the cross?? Good grief, Baron...without the cross there could be no water/spirit doctrine!

I have to be missing something here. Surely you don't think we're that ignorant...

navygoat1998
09-17-2013, 05:36 PM
:girlnails

tv1a
09-17-2013, 05:37 PM
Fudge's book shows the side of history Bernard, Pugh, Judd, and others on the revisionist committee wanted silenced.

I think Fudge's book is a misrepresentation to the other extreme, though some might say it fits their personal experience very well.

As for me, since leaving the AoG in 1993 to join the UPCI, I can honestly say that the most powerful messages I've ever heard about the cross have been from UPC pulpits.

Baron1710
09-17-2013, 05:43 PM
Have no need for the cross?? Good grief, Baron...without the cross there could be no water/spirit doctrine!

I have to be missing something here. Surely you don't think we're that ignorant...

Have you read the book?

Sarah
09-17-2013, 05:56 PM
Have you read the book?

No, I haven't, Baron. I was just reacting to your statement that 'those who hold to the water/spirit doctrine feel they have no need for the cross'.

I'll never understand why some of you want to leave Jesus hanging on the cross. He died for us...but he surely didn't stay dead!

Jesus died for our sins, he was buried, and arose. We die out to our sins by repentance, we're buried with him in baptism, and arise to walk in a newness of life through the Holy Ghost!

It's an insult to say that we ignore the cross...

RandyWayne
09-17-2013, 06:25 PM
No, I haven't, Baron. I was just reacting to your statement that 'those who hold to the water/spirit doctrine feel they have no need for the cross'.

I'll never understand why some of you want to leave Jesus hanging on the cross. He died for us...but he surely didn't stay dead!

Jesus died for our sins, he was buried, and arose. We die out to our sins by repentance, we're buried with him in baptism, and arise to walk in a newness of life through the Holy Ghost!

It's an insult to say that we ignore the cross...

I know your talking to Baron, but during my stint in the org during the 80's it was baptism in Jesus name, tongue talking, and strict adherence to holiness standards, and obeying the "man of gawd!" that saved. Forget about the cross. I NEVER heard grace mentioned.

Originalist
09-17-2013, 06:26 PM
No misrepresentation. The point of the title wasn't that no UPC preacher preaches about the cross, but that those that hold the water/spirit doctrine have no need for a cross.

I can attest that this statement simply is not true, though I am probably not a true believer in the "water/Spirit doctrine" as it is taught in the UPCI in that I do not believe that the reference to "water" in John 3:5 is speaking of water baptism.

However, I do affirm that baptism is a step towards the new birth and , in most cases, precedes the new birth. There are many verses that affirm this truth even without using John 3:5.

Originalist
09-17-2013, 06:43 PM
I know your talking to Baron, but during my stint in the org during the 80's it was baptism in Jesus name, tongue talking, and strict adherence to holiness standards, and obeying the "man of gawd!" that saved. Forget about the cross. I NEVER heard grace mentioned.

I believe you are accurately describing the experience you had, just as I am accurately describing mine.

Praxeas
09-17-2013, 06:44 PM
I hear grace and the cross often

StillStanding
09-17-2013, 06:56 PM
From my experience of growing up in the UPC, the cross was preached and was an important part of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It just wasn't AS important as Acts 2:38!

Originalist
09-17-2013, 07:05 PM
From my experience of growing up in the UPC, the cross was preached and was an important part of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It just wasn't AS important as Acts 2:38!

I can see how this could happen if one preaches Acts 2:38 as the gospel instead of preaching it as the correct response to the gospel. These types do seem to have a problem with spiritual pride and actually make an idol out of a great truth, in the same way Charismatics often do with sign gifts.

Jason B
09-17-2013, 07:08 PM
I think it would be liberating for all of you to forget about the bad old UPCI. Do something productive...like start your own organization!

Sure that's just what Jesus needs, another Christian denomination. What ever happened to the church being the church, that they all may be one, reconciliation. New, you don't like it go start your own organization. What a witness to the world.

Jason B
09-17-2013, 07:24 PM
Well, I do know why it was brought up. Several of us feel this is a message that is a historical marker in the life of an organization. The message and the events surrounding it set the trajectory of my religious life.

Ferd, the attitude that those of us who have generations in this movement ought to walk away and never say another word about t is baffling.

So you do have an agenda!

How are you wanting to 'affect' the UPCI? Would you like to see it completely destroyed?

To make a long story short, Baron, y'all were simply voted out. When push came to shove, there were simply more 'three steppers', as it's called here, than 'one steppers'. I'm sorry that people were hurt that had given years to the organization. But for the life of me, I can't see why they ever agreed to become one in the first place. Too far apart when it comes to the 'plan of salvation'.
Some of you seem to have wasted years, trying to 'hold the organization's feet to the fire'.
Don't know what you've accomplished during this time, but it seems to me that you've spent a lot of time and energy trying to 'get back at the organization'.

I think it would be liberating for all of you to forget about the bad old UPCI. Do something productive...like start your own organization!


Oh, ok, lets think about this for a moment....how did the generation of Oneness Pentecostals react to the Assembly of God general conference of 1916? Did they just say "well, we got voted out, lets move on with our lives guys, no need to discuss this anymore." After a few years or decades did they just forget?

NO. In fact it is still occasionally whined about how mean those ole Assembly of God guys were. Its PRESERVED in all the histories written by oneness Pentecostals. So history is only worth preserving when THEY are the ones who played the martyr, while those who were victims of similar injustices are told "just get over it".

Its called a double standard, and sadly, its what the UPC has majored on.

Lets move on, fine. We need to, but I find it ironic that nearly 100 years later some in the UPC still decry the happenings of the AG conference, while telling others to just shut up about what happened a mere 20 years ago.

Baron1710
09-17-2013, 07:25 PM
No, I haven't, Baron. I was just reacting to your statement that 'those who hold to the water/spirit doctrine feel they have no need for the cross'.

I'll never understand why some of you want to leave Jesus hanging on the cross. He died for us...but he surely didn't stay dead!

Jesus died for our sins, he was buried, and arose. We die out to our sins by repentance, we're buried with him in baptism, and arise to walk in a newness of life through the Holy Ghost!

It's an insult to say that we ignore the cross...

I will let Mr. Fudge speak for himself about the title of the book. This is an excerpt of an email he sent me.

"Three days ago I was with Loren Yadon and he mentioned your name. I can well imagine that few people connected to the UPC want to review the book. I am also aware that the UPC takes the view that no impartial reviewer can possible see any merit in the book. Good luck.

I did consider other titles for the book and as the introduction to the book states I was well aware that the title would cause some discomfort. Two points: One, I like attention getting titles. Second, it is my firm belief that the title is accurate. In terms of the doctrine of salvation, I could find little evidence that the preaching of the message and work of the cross figures centrally in a context dominated by water and Spirit. At one point I thought about just using the subtitle, or substituting "Water and Spirit" for "Christianity Without the Cross". In the end, I stayed with the latter."

navygoat1998
09-17-2013, 07:35 PM
Oh, ok, lets think about this for a moment....how did the generation of Oneness Pentecostals react to the Assembly of God general conference of 1916? Did they just say "well, we got voted out, lets move on with our lives guys, no need to discuss this anymore." After a few years or decades did they just forget?

NO. In fact it is still occasionally whined about how mean those ole Assembly of God guys were. Its PRESERVED in all the histories written by oneness Pentecostals. So history is only worth preserving when THEY are the ones who played the martyr, while those who were victims of similar injustices are told "just get over it".

Its called a double standard, and sadly, its what the UPC has majored on.

Lets move on, fine. We need to, but I find it ironic that nearly 100 years later some in the UPC still decry the happenings of the AG conference, while telling others to just shut up about what happened a mere 20 years ago.

Funny years ago I talked to my old pastor and he asked me where I was going to church and I told the Assembly of God, all he could say was why the Assembly??? I told him because it was not UPC, and all he said was yea I know that but why the Assemblies??? :heeheehee

Praxeas
09-17-2013, 07:56 PM
So you do have an agenda!

How are you wanting to 'affect' the UPCI? Would you like to see it completely destroyed?

To make a long story short, Baron, y'all were simply voted out. When push came to shove, there were simply more 'three steppers', as it's called here, than 'one steppers'. I'm sorry that people were hurt that had given years to the organization. But for the life of me, I can't see why they ever agreed to become one in the first place. Too far apart when it comes to the 'plan of salvation'.

Some of you seem to have wasted years, trying to 'hold the organization's feet to the fire'.
Don't know what you've accomplished during this time, but it seems to me that you've spent a lot of time and energy trying to 'get back at the organization'.

I think it would be liberating for all of you to forget about the bad old UPCI. Do something productive...like start your own organization!
It wasn't "Push came to shove"...it's not like the One steppers were trying to take over.

They became One because they ALL believed in Repentance, Water baptism in the name of Jesus and the Baptism of the Spirit with speaking in tongues as well as the "One God" message. They simply did not place the same emphasis on when and how salvation occurs

Praxeas
09-17-2013, 07:59 PM
Maybe Fudge is coming from a hyper "Grace only" position I often hear today where if you believe ANYTHING other than "Faith in the finished work on the cross" (ie, repentance, baptism), you believe in salvation without the cross...which is factually not true (a strawman argument actually)

Every Christian believes what Jesus did on the cross was necessary and it does in fact get taught in Oneness churches

Baron1710
09-17-2013, 08:46 PM
Maybe Fudge is coming from a hyper "Grace only" position I often hear today where if you believe ANYTHING other than "Faith in the finished work on the cross" (ie, repentance, baptism), you believe in salvation without the cross...which is factually not true (a strawman argument actually)

Every Christian believes what Jesus did on the cross was necessary and it does in fact get taught in Oneness churches

No. He only puts that stigma on the water and spirit crowd.

Pressing-On
09-17-2013, 09:04 PM
I can attest that this statement simply is not true, though I am probably not a true believer in the "water/Spirit doctrine" as it is taught in the UPCI in that I do not believe that the reference to "water" in John 3:5 is speaking of water baptism.

However, I do affirm that baptism is a step towards the new birth and , in most cases, precedes the new birth. There are many verses that affirm this truth even without using John 3:5.

Care to explain the wording in bold?

Baron1710
09-17-2013, 10:07 PM
Care to explain the wording in bold?

"I am probably not a true believer in the "water/Spirit doctrine" as it is taught in the UPCI in that I do not believe that the reference to "water" in John 3:5 is speaking of water baptism."

Read slowly.

phareztamar
09-17-2013, 10:14 PM
I do not believe that the reference to "water" in John 3:5 is speaking of water baptism. :thumbsup:thumbsup

Submitted a post early on called "Born of water". It got yanked immediatly. Must have hit a nerve.

Originalist
09-17-2013, 10:26 PM
Care to explain the wording in bold?

In the next chapter, John 4, Jesus tells us what the water is, the Holy Spirit being placed within, springing up unto everlasting life.

Again, this view of John 3:5 does not negate other verses , such as Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38, which clearly teach that baptism is essential.

Praxeas
09-18-2013, 12:57 AM
No. He only puts that stigma on the water and spirit crowd.
That's actually my point. The Water and Spirit crowd DO in fact believe in what Jesus did on the cross, but perhaps because they also believe in baptism and receiving the Spirit with tongues Fudge is making the classic argument I hear often "So you don't believe in the cross" all because they believe baptism is essential.

renee819
09-18-2013, 04:18 AM
This (the bolded) does not answer the question, to say she came out of Frank Ewart's church does not tell us if she was in his church at the time this picture was taken. Further, NOONE is attacking Olive Haney, I just don't want people trying to make a case for "the way they dressed back then" based on a picture that is not relevant (IF it was a pre-church picture)....IMO that would be like showing a picture of a 5' 6" 14yr old Trayvon Martin as the kid that was shot, when in reality he was 17 and 5' 11"......DKB and friends have been charged (in this thread) with rewriting our history, but those who would use a picture (if indeed it was not taken while she was saved) of OH to support their claims would be guilty of the same.

In the final analysis, one must be honest enough to see that yes there were two differing views of when salvation happened at the merger. (what many now refer to as one step or saved at repentance/three step or water spirit) The oneness movement was still a developing movement. All of those early adherents had come from various religious backgrounds which impacted their view on MANY areas of doctrine. As they settled into their new found doctrine it is reasonable that their beliefs would change over time. (No different than a Trinitarian pastor today who would convert.....his/her beliefs would change, even if minimally over time.)

The "till we all come into the unity of the faith" clause was clearly put in the original statement to appease brethren on both sides who felt that the opposing view needed to align themselves with the proper doctrinal view. IMO the merger should have never taken place. Salvation is a HUGE issue and one that I do not believe can be taken lightly. Even if we agree on so many points that we are nearly alike.....if we do not agree on what constitutes salvation there CANNOT be unity for long. To expect such, would require a compromise (on one side or the other) on the foundational doctrine of salvation.

If I truly believe water/spirit (three step) I cannot believe that the saved at repentance (One step) crowd is actually saved until they have also been baptized in Jesus name and received the gift of the Holy Ghost.

If I truly believe one is saved at repentance, I cannot long fellowship those who I believe are placing a burden on their followers that is not biblical. To do so would bring confusion (which it did.) For there to be enduring unity, both sides would have to come to the understanding that it really doesn't matter either way......not likely to happen IMO.

Good Spiritual as well as common sense.

tv1a
09-18-2013, 04:46 AM
Grace and the cross with conditions are preached in UPCI pulpits.


I hear grace and the cross often

Originalist
09-18-2013, 04:50 AM
Grace and the cross with conditions are preached in UPCI pulpits.

Yes, conditions like repentance and total surrender to the Lordship of Christ. How terrible!!

Nitehawk013
09-18-2013, 04:55 AM
Grace and the cross with conditions are preached in UPCI pulpits.

Yeah, probably because their are conditons to salvation.

The crowd that seems to love Fudge and his nonsense are the same crowd that embrace the anythign goes, just believe (mental ascent) and you are saved idiocy in most cases.

Pressing-On
09-18-2013, 05:05 AM
In the next chapter, John 4, Jesus tells us what the water is, the Holy Spirit being placed within, springing up unto everlasting life.

Again, this view of John 3:5 does not negate other verses , such as Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38, which clearly teach that baptism is essential.

But, wouldn't Jesus then be saying, "Except a man be born of water and water"?

In John 3:22, right after the account of Nicodemus, it says - "After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized."

Isn't he speaking of both in a purifying sense, yet distinctly separate? Such as in Matthew 3:11?

Baron1710
09-18-2013, 05:52 AM
That's actually my point. The Water and Spirit crowd DO in fact believe in what Jesus did on the cross, but perhaps because they also believe in baptism and receiving the Spirit with tongues Fudge is making the classic argument I hear often "So you don't believe in the cross" all because they believe baptism is essential.

You didn't read what he write did you.

You guys are amazing at surmising when the facts are right there for you to read.

I did consider other titles for the book and as the introduction to the book states I was well aware that the title would cause some discomfort. Two points: One, I like attention getting titles. Second, it is my firm belief that the title is accurate. In terms of the doctrine of salvation, I could find little evidence that the preaching of the message and work of the cross figures centrally in a context dominated by water and Spirit. At one point I thought about just using the subtitle, or substituting "Water and Spirit" for "Christianity Without the Cross". In the end, I stayed with the latter."

Pressing-On
09-18-2013, 05:56 AM
You didn't read what he write did you.

You guys are amazing at surmising when the facts are right there for you to read.

I did consider other titles for the book and as the introduction to the book states I was well aware that the title would cause some discomfort. Two points: One, I like attention getting titles. Second, it is my firm belief that the title is accurate. In terms of the doctrine of salvation, I could find little evidence that the preaching of the message and work of the cross figures centrally in a context dominated by water and Spirit. At one point I thought about just using the subtitle, or substituting "Water and Spirit" for "Christianity Without the Cross". In the end, I stayed with the latter."
This man's book and opinion are supposed to be "gospel" to everyone? He's just another man and just another author of a book. Much like you are just another attorney. :heeheehee

kclee4jc
09-18-2013, 06:47 AM
I am not UPCI and have little interest in the UPCI. I will say this. It appears to me that the UPCI was built on compromise from the beginning. In my opinion, the merger never should have happened..salvation is simply too big of an issue.

There are many wonderful men of God in the UPCI, however I could never be a part of an organization that is build on such shaky ground. Doubtless, it has done much for the Kingdom.

Jermyn Davidson
09-18-2013, 07:01 AM
Funny years ago I talked to my old pastor and he asked me where I was going to church and I told the Assembly of God, all he could say was why the Assembly??? I told him because it was not UPC, and all he said was yea I know that but why the Assemblies??? :heeheehee

Navy!
When I told my family about leaving Oneness, that is THE EXACT same question my Mom had?

She was very disheartened that of all the churches to attend, I had decided to attend an AG church!

She had a couple other questions too, but your old Pastor's wording and her wording were exact matches.

Esaias
09-18-2013, 07:06 AM
Oh, ok, lets think about this for a moment....how did the generation of Oneness Pentecostals react to the Assembly of God general conference of 1916?

They moved on and started their own orgs. They did not demand the AoG change to accomodate them.

Pressing-On
09-18-2013, 07:08 AM
They moved on and started their own orgs. They did not demand the AoG change to accomodate them.

Ooops.... :heeheehee :thumbsup

Baron1710
09-18-2013, 07:10 AM
This man's book and opinion are supposed to be "gospel" to everyone? He's just another man and just another author of a book. Much like you are just another attorney. :heeheehee

Right. no qualifications as a historian at all.

Dr Thomas A Fudge undertook his research leading to a PhD in medieval history under the direction of R.W. (Bob) Scribner at Cambridge where he wrote on the subject “Myth, Heresy and Propaganda in the Radical Hussite Movement, 1409-1437”. He has worked in many monastic libraries, in archives in eastern and central Europe, and in some of the world’s great academic libraries such as the Bodley in Oxford, Harvard, and the Vatican. He is one of the founders of the biennial conference The Bohemian Reformation and Religious Practice which also publishes a journal by the same name. Volume 10 in that series is currently being edited. Prior to taking up his appointment at UNE, he taught at Warner Pacific College (Portland Oregon), Clark College (Vancouver), the University of Canterbury (Christchurch, New Zealand) and in the Texas prison system. Appointed to a university professorial chair in 2003, Dr. Fudge joined the UNE faculty in 2012.

Pressing-On
09-18-2013, 07:18 AM
Right. no qualifications as a historian at all.

Dr Thomas A Fudge undertook his research leading to a PhD in medieval history under the direction of R.W. (Bob) Scribner at Cambridge where he wrote on the subject “Myth, Heresy and Propaganda in the Radical Hussite Movement, 1409-1437”. He has worked in many monastic libraries, in archives in eastern and central Europe, and in some of the world’s great academic libraries such as the Bodley in Oxford, Harvard, and the Vatican. He is one of the founders of the biennial conference The Bohemian Reformation and Religious Practice which also publishes a journal by the same name. Volume 10 in that series is currently being edited. Prior to taking up his appointment at UNE, he taught at Warner Pacific College (Portland Oregon), Clark College (Vancouver), the University of Canterbury (Christchurch, New Zealand) and in the Texas prison system. Appointed to a university professorial chair in 2003, Dr. Fudge joined the UNE faculty in 2012.

"I could find little evidence that the preaching of the message and work of the cross figures centrally in a context dominated by water and Spirit."

The message of his death, burial and resurrection is the whole idea behind the New Birth. His death (Cross) was necessary in order for the Resurrection to take place. The Resurrection was necessary in order for the Holy Ghost/the Comforter to come dwell in us.

That is the recurring theme (aside from also being buried with him in Baptism) and message I have been hearing for 28 years.

His "little evidence of the cross" is bogus.

He is just another man with a book.

Esaias
09-18-2013, 07:25 AM
The idea that apostolics don't preach the cross is ridiculous. What is really being said is that apostolics don't preach a particular view of salvation, a particular view of the gospel.

It's no different than when Calvinists accuse everyone else of not believing in or preaching 'grace', or when they accuse everyone else of preaching that man saves himself... all because those others don't subscribe to Calvin's pet theories.

Pressing-On
09-18-2013, 07:43 AM
The idea that apostolics don't preach the cross is ridiculous. What is really being said is that apostolics don't preach a particular view of salvation, a particular view of the gospel.

It's no different than when Calvinists accuse everyone else of not believing in or preaching 'grace', or when they accuse everyone else of preaching that man saves himself... all because those others don't subscribe to Calvin's pet theories.

The defense of Fudge is hilarious. They are ardent after him in the same way those who have felt anything DKB says is gospel. Same difference.

It reminds me of when I was a new convert, my pastor gave me In Search of Holiness to read.

When I got to the part that said, "By altering that color, the glory is lost. Jesus Himself assumed that people would not change the color of their hair (Matthew 5:36).

I commented to my pastor that Matthew 5:36 wasn't referencing hair dye, but simply that some things are not within our power to change. I thought he was going to have a heart attack. It was as though I spoke blasphemy against God Himself. LOL!

They are doing the same thing with Fudge - It's blasphemy to not agree with him! After all he has the credentials - that makes him right!!!

Whatever....:heeheehee

Baron1710
09-18-2013, 08:03 AM
The idea that apostolics don't preach the cross is ridiculous. What is really being said is that apostolics don't preach a particular view of salvation, a particular view of the gospel.

It's no different than when Calvinists accuse everyone else of not believing in or preaching 'grace', or when they accuse everyone else of preaching that man saves himself... all because those others don't subscribe to Calvin's pet theories.

Water/Spirit preachers ignore the cross, and the "easy believeism" demonstrated there by Jesus. You must Repent, You must be baptized, You must speak in tongues. Salvation is all about what YOU do, and if You haven't done these things there is no room in the kingdom for you. They do not rely on the finished work of the cross, they focus on their steps. One...two...three...now you are saved...well if you continue to dress right...pay your tithes...attend church 4 times a week...obey every nonsense rule the pastor makes up and calls it Biblical...yep it is all about the cross.

Baron1710
09-18-2013, 08:06 AM
The defense of Fudge is hilarious. They are ardent after him in the same way those who have felt anything DKB says is gospel. Same difference.

It reminds me of when I was a new convert, my pastor gave me In Search of Holiness to read.

When I got to the part that said, "By altering that color, the glory is lost. Jesus Himself assumed that people would not change the color of their hair (Matthew 5:36).

I commented to my pastor that Matthew 5:36 wasn't referencing hair dye, but simply that some things are not within our power to change. I thought he was going to have a heart attack. It was as though I spoke blasphemy against God Himself. LOL!

They are doing the same thing with Fudge - It's blasphemy to not agree with him! After all he has the credentials - that makes him right!!!

Whatever....:heeheehee

No one is asking you to agree with him, but so much of what is there is a matter of historical record, but you are so blind you can't get past the title.

Pressing-On
09-18-2013, 08:15 AM
No one is asking you to agree with him, but so much of what is there is a matter of historical record, but you are so blind you can't get past the title.

Yes, everything is historical.

Just like Jefferson's letter to the Danbury group reflecting he wasn't a Deist, although history tries to paint him in that light. ;)

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=1175426&postcount=67

Baron1710
09-18-2013, 08:19 AM
Yes, everything is historical.

Just like Jefferson's letter to the Danbury group reflecting he wasn't a Deist, although history tries to paint him in that light. ;)

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=1175426&postcount=67

Are you saying Jefferson wasn't a Deist?

Ferd
09-18-2013, 08:21 AM
You fellas can have the thread and the discussion. Im good with getting the history right. I think Fudge brought a needed voice to the discussion. However with all history, the story is told thru the bias of the historian. To suggest Fudge is somehow different from those inside that have told the story differently is silliness.


I am glad the book is part of the record. Ive read it. there is some good stuff in it. Certainly the UPCI is not perfect.

Im happy with my contribution here. Some of you guys I think are being honest. Others are just here (or in other places) to destroy. You have made it your mission in life to see the object of your disdane wrecked. Ive already said it but it is sad and small.

but you wont be disuaded by any reason or even by unreason so go for it. I suppose some day down the road we will see the fruit of our efforts.

Ferd
09-18-2013, 08:27 AM
Nice post.

It is very arrogant and unfeeling to dismiss the abuse that others have experienced as inconsequential and unimportant.

It is also ironic that Ferd and others want everyone to move on yet they continue to bring up their own hurts regarding Dan Alicea from several years ago.

sorry dude. I havennt brought up any past hurts regarding your buddy dan.

I pointed out quite clearly that he is bitter and has spent the better part of the last few years focusing that bitterness on the UPCI.

that has nothing to do with any "past hurts". i dont even know what that means.

Barb
09-18-2013, 08:44 AM
I am not UPCI and have little interest in the UPCI. I will say this. It appears to me that the UPCI was built on compromise from the beginning. In my opinion, the merger never should have happened..salvation is simply too big of an issue.

There are many wonderful men of God in the UPCI, however I could never be a part of an organization that is build on such shaky ground. Doubtless, it has done much for the Kingdom.

Oh really?! :foottap

What of the countless men and women who were PCI in doctrine who worked hand in hand with the PAJC brethren promoting the gospel?

The missionaries sent...the churches founded...the souls saved...

For over 70 years it worked!

Seems like a lot of good to me... :nod

Pressing-On
09-18-2013, 08:45 AM
Are you saying Jefferson wasn't a Deist?

I'm not going to rehash this with you, as we have already discussed this at length. Except to say, Jefferson is recorded to have said, ""I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man,..."

A Deist does not believe that God is involved in the lives of His created. For Jefferson to acknowledge the "protection and blessing of the common father and creator of man", proves by his own words that historians cannot claim him to have been a Deist.

You brought out an atheist author to try and prove your point. Therefore, the larger point is that she may have had some historical points, Fudge may have some historical points, but no one is totally correct on everything they claim.

We look to the Word, and as Esaias has posted in another thread - "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." (1 Cor 1:10)

Hence, we had a division, a split, it's over and everyone needs to move on.

I concur with Ferd, you can have this thread and discussion...

kclee4jc
09-18-2013, 09:04 AM
Oh really?! :foottap

What of the countless men and women who were PCI in doctrine who worked hand in hand with the PAJC brethren promoting the gospel?

The missionaries sent...the churches founded...the souls saved...

For over 70 years it worked!

Seems like a lot of good to me... :nod



I think you misread my post.

doubtless-certainly: certainly or almost certainly
certain: impossible to doubt or deny

Synonyms: no doubt, without a doubt, almost certainly, without question, beyond question, beyond a shadow of a doubt,



please reflect again on the argued section of my post..


"Doubtless, it HAS done much for the Kingdom."

Thank You.

Esaias
09-18-2013, 09:21 AM
Water/Spirit preachers ignore the cross, and the "easy believeism" demonstrated there by Jesus. You must Repent, You must be baptized, You must speak in tongues. Salvation is all about what YOU do, and if You haven't done these things there is no room in the kingdom for you. They do not rely on the finished work of the cross, they focus on their steps. One...two...three...now you are saved...well if you continue to dress right...pay your tithes...attend church 4 times a week...obey every nonsense rule the pastor makes up and calls it Biblical...yep it is all about the cross.

Again, nonsense. I believe in 'water/spirit', apparently you do not believe in the water or the spirit. I have preached (I do not claim to be a preacher, but I did preach a campmeeting, and also in a UPC once as a guest preacher. I have also taught bible studies.) I FIRMLY believe that unless one is born again of water and spirit one cannot enter the kingdom of God (one won't even see it, let alone enter it...).

And EVERY time I preached or taught it was THE CROSS, the BLOOD, the RESURRECTION.

The 'Christ event' (death and resurrection) is not just a theological article of faith, it is a spiritual REALITY that must be entered into if one is to have any hope of escaping their sins and damnation, and participating in the Life of God now and in eternity.

And water baptism and spiritual baptism are the means God has chosen to bring us into that spiritual reality, via faith in God according to THE WORD preached by the apostles.

Nitehawk013
09-18-2013, 09:31 AM
Water/Spirit preachers ignore the cross, and the "easy believeism" demonstrated there by Jesus. You must Repent, You must be baptized, You must speak in tongues. Salvation is all about what YOU do, and if You haven't done these things there is no room in the kingdom for you. They do not rely on the finished work of the cross, they focus on their steps. One...two...three...now you are saved...well if you continue to dress right...pay your tithes...attend church 4 times a week...obey every nonsense rule the pastor makes up and calls it Biblical...yep it is all about the cross.

And yet you think the "finished work" stuff is better?

Since your salavtion is fromt he finished work of the cross you can go on beating your wife, being a drunk, never get baptized, never be filled with the HG, never gather for any kind of worship service or "church", not give a dime to the work of God, not change your life at all really, cover yourself head to toe in tats and piercings, dress like a streetwalker, and basically do whatever you want, whenever you want because hey...you are saved by faith in the finished work of the cross right? It's never ever about what YOU do or don't do. It's all about the finished work of the cross.

Nitehawk013
09-18-2013, 09:33 AM
sorry dude. I havennt brought up any past hurts regarding your buddy dan.

I pointed out quite clearly that he is bitter and has spent the better part of the last few years focusing that bitterness on the UPCI.

that has nothing to do with any "past hurts". i dont even know what that means.

All I have ever known of or about Dan was what I read from him on here and another forum/site. That was enough to know he was bitter, thought himself a know it all, and that if he liked something....generally I was doing well to not like it.

Baron1710
09-18-2013, 09:39 AM
I'm not going to rehash this with you, as we have already discussed this at length. Except to say, Jefferson is recorded to have said, ""I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man,..."

A Deist does not believe that God is involved in the lives of His created. For Jefferson to acknowledge the "protection and blessing of the common father and creator of man", proves by his own words that historians cannot claim him to have been a Deist.

You brought out an atheist author to try and prove your point. Therefore, the larger point is that she may have had some historical points, Fudge may have some historical points, but no one is totally correct on everything they claim.

We look to the Word, and as Esaias has posted in another thread - "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment." (1 Cor 1:10)

Hence, we had a division, a split, it's over and everyone needs to move on.

I concur with Ferd, you can have this thread and discussion...

You are delusional. Jefferson's own words establish his position. Read the words of Abigail Adams when she heard he would be President. She all but referred to him as an atheist. This was not an uncommon sentiment among religious people at that time. Just because you plug your ears and shout, "LALALALALALA" doesn't mean it isn't true.

Originalist
09-18-2013, 09:42 AM
But, wouldn't Jesus then be saying, "Except a man be born of water and water"?

In John 3:22, right after the account of Nicodemus, it says - "After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized."

Isn't he speaking of both in a purifying sense, yet distinctly separate? Such as in Matthew 3:11?

Since one chapter after his discourse with Nicodemus Jesus again brings up "water" in relation to receiving eternal life, I think it is safe to say that a better translation of John 3:5 would have been, "born of the water, even of the Spirit".

But again, I still hold that baptim is "for the remission of sins".

Baron1710
09-18-2013, 09:43 AM
And yet you think the "finished work" stuff is better?

Since your salavtion is fromt he finished work of the cross you can go on beating your wife, being a drunk, never get baptized, never be filled with the HG, never gather for any kind of worship service or "church", not give a dime to the work of God, not change your life at all really, cover yourself head to toe in tats and piercings, dress like a streetwalker, and basically do whatever you want, whenever you want because hey...you are saved by faith in the finished work of the cross right? It's never ever about what YOU do or don't do. It's all about the finished work of the cross.

You certainly have some strange views of the finished work of the cross.

And Yes I absolutely subscribe to the finished work of the cross as far superior to anything else you or anyone else has to offer.

Water/Spirit guys have never been drunkards, wife beaters or child molesters have they? Oh wait...

Esaias
09-18-2013, 09:47 AM
I have been gone from the UPC since shortly after the fallout from this sermon so I have no desire to tear down the organization. I do find it sad that so many of us were forced out by he hardliners when we would have been happy to stay but for the attitude that we must all believe the same on every passage and every issue.

Followed by:

Water/Spirit preachers ignore the cross, and the "easy believeism" demonstrated there by Jesus. You must Repent, You must be baptized, You must speak in tongues. Salvation is all about what YOU do, and if You haven't done these things there is no room in the kingdom for you. They do not rely on the finished work of the cross, they focus on their steps. One...two...three...now you are saved...well if you continue to dress right...pay your tithes...attend church 4 times a week...obey every nonsense rule the pastor makes up and calls it Biblical...yep it is all about the cross.

Now, suppose Baron were there, shortly after the merger. It's all love and peace, roses and rainbows. Such sweet love amongst the brethren!

He and others (I suppose) would be happy to remain in unity, and members of the newly minted UPC, in fellowship with their PAJC brethren... as long as those PAJC brethren don't preach what they believe, of course, and all the while knowing his PAJC brethren don't believe in the cross, ignore the cross, preach works salvation, have added to the gospel, are preaching another gospel, in short, they are a bunch of heretics.

But of course it's those mean ole PAJC 'water/spirit' preachers who ruined such a good thing!

:spit

Esaias
09-18-2013, 09:50 AM
You certainly have some strange views of the finished work of the cross.

And Yes I absolutely subscribe to the finished work of the cross as far superior to anything else you or anyone else has to offer.

Water/Spirit guys have never been drunkards, wife beaters or child molesters have they? Oh wait...

Explain this 'finished work of the cross' that rules out any need for a response to the gospel as well as any need to actually receive the spirit of Christ.

Baron1710
09-18-2013, 10:01 AM
Explain this 'finished work of the cross' that rules out any need for a response to the gospel as well as any need to actually receive the spirit of Christ.

It doesn't rule out a response to the Gospel, or the need for the Spirit. It just rules out making a religious chant over the individual a part of salvation. Nor does it require an emotional experience for one to be filled with the Spirit. And it certainly doesn't require blind submission to a little pope who claims to hold your salvation in his hands based on your obedience to him.

bishoph
09-18-2013, 10:10 AM
It doesn't rule out a response to the Gospel, or the need for the Spirit. It just rules out making a religious chant over the individual a part of salvation. Nor does it require an emotional experience for one to be filled with the Spirit. And it certainly doesn't require blind submission to a little pope who claims to hold your salvation in his hands based on your obedience to him.

Wow it is amazing what we can learn on AFF......invoking the name of Jesus Christ in baptism is now just a religious chant.....and receiving the Holy Ghost is nothing more than an emotional response....or maybe it should be devoid of any emotion...........I guess you learn something new every day......or NOT!

Barb
09-18-2013, 10:14 AM
I think you misread my post.

doubtless-certainly: certainly or almost certainly
certain: impossible to doubt or deny

Synonyms: no doubt, without a doubt, almost certainly, without question, beyond question, beyond a shadow of a doubt,



please reflect again on the argued section of my post..


"Doubtless, it HAS done much for the Kingdom."

Thank You.
I read it in a rush...

Sorry...

Pressing-On
09-18-2013, 10:29 AM
You are delusional. Jefferson's own words establish his position. Read the words of Abigail Adams when she heard he would be President. She all but referred to him as an atheist. This was not an uncommon sentiment among religious people at that time. Just because you plug your ears and shout, "LALALALALALA" doesn't mean it isn't true.

LALALALALALA all day long over his letter to Benjamin Rush:

"To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other."

You can look into his history and find the issue with Jefferson. He had a bad taste in his mouth (from his upbringing) over the Anglican Church and his bad impression of the Catholic Church during the French Revolution. That certainly didn't make him a Deist. You can be a revisionist if you want.

Baron1710
09-18-2013, 10:32 AM
Wow it is amazing what we can learn on AFF......invoking the name of Jesus Christ in baptism is now just a religious chant.....and receiving the Holy Ghost is nothing more than an emotional response....or maybe it should be devoid of any emotion...........I guess you learn something new every day......or NOT!

You are right, "chant" may be a bad term, "incantation" may be a better choice.

You fail to understand what it means to do something "In the name of."

Baron1710
09-18-2013, 10:43 AM
LALALALALALA all day long over his letter to Benjamin Rush:

"To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other."

You can look into his history and find the issue with Jefferson. He had a bad taste in his mouth (from his upbringing) over the Anglican Church and his bad impression of the Catholic Church during the French Revolution. That certainly didn't make him a Deist. You can be a revisionist if you want.

In the very statement you quote he denies the Deity of Christ, and furthermore his statement as to those who pervert Christianity was not just the Anglican church...


"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on
man...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the
teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the
first great corruptor of the teachings of Jesus."

Esaias
09-18-2013, 10:48 AM
It doesn't rule out a response to the Gospel, or the need for the Spirit.

Then this 'finished work' view, so called, includes the necessity of a response to the gospel and the need to receive the Spirit.

Therefore, the issue is simply a matter of 'what constitutes the Biblical response to the gospel, and what constitutes the receiving of the Spirit, according to the Bible.'

And therefore, you assertions about 'water/spirit teaching' being spmehow fundamentally contrary to this 'finished work' view are false.

Again, "Therefore, the issue is simply a matter of 'what constitutes the Biblical response to the gospel, and what constitutes the receiving of the Spirit, according to the Bible.'"

Pressing-On
09-18-2013, 10:52 AM
Since one chapter after his discourse with Nicodemus Jesus again brings up "water" in relation to receiving eternal life, I think it is safe to say that a better translation of John 3:5 would have been, "born of the water, even of the Spirit".

But again, I still hold that baptism is "for the remission of sins".

I think that "and" can also be defined as "also". In context it could also mean "even".

However, when I review everything that Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, I see him talking about being "saved", i.e., "that the world through him might be saved" (John 3:17). And I remember Jesus' words in Mark 16:16 "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved."

So, I appreciate what you've written and I'll think about it some more.

kclee4jc
09-18-2013, 11:08 AM
I read it in a rush...

Sorry...

no worries!:happydance

Originalist
09-18-2013, 11:52 AM
I think that "and" can also be defined as "also". In context it could also mean "even".

However, when I review everything that Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, I see him talking about being "saved", i.e., "that the world through him might be saved" (John 3:17). And I remember Jesus' words in Mark 16:16 "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved."

So, I appreciate what you've written and I'll think about it some more.

Yes, he who believes and is baptized shall (future event) be saved, but saved by what? Paul tels us in Titus 3:5-6....

He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,

So believing and baptism are steps that take us towards the thing that saves us, namely the indwelling Spirit of God.

Pressing-On
09-18-2013, 12:14 PM
Yes, he who believes and is baptized shall (future event) be saved, but saved by what? Paul tels us in Titus 3:5-6....

So believing and baptism are steps that take us towards the thing that saves us, namely the indwelling Spirit of God.

But the Word also states that John preached the "baptism of repentance" - Mark 1:4; "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation..." - II Cor 7:10; The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us..." - I Peter 3:21.

When you couple these verses with Titus 3:5-6, you end up with Acts 2:38 again.

I don't think the Apostles expressed their belief in the way we try to slap terminology down on everything. It was simply the Gospel to them. Not a "Stepper" formula.

On another note, was it the Gospel or the response to? II Thess 1:8 and I Peter 4:17 don't appear to make a distinction when they call on us to "obey" the Gospel. How can you make a distinction between what the Gospel is and your response to it when they simply ONLY say - this is what the end will be if you don't "obey"? Anyway, I've always noticed that and wondered at it.