View Full Version : I visited another church this past weekend
Originalist
09-17-2013, 09:01 AM
This was the small church I mentioned previously in another post.
I met with the pastor of this church about a week ago. We discussed all of the seemingly logical reasons I should start attending his church. We also discussed the recent message preached by my pastor concerning tithing. While the pastor of this small church also practises and teaches tithing as a "principle", he also has difficulty in using the passages in Malachi as some sort of whip to scare people into giving.
This church only had about 20 adults in attendence. Most of them do not even live in the small town where the church is located. Some drive a great distance (more than an hour) just to support this small work. I find it a bit odd that this church has been in existence more than 4 years now and does not have members from the local area. The day we visited was one promonent family's last Sunday there because they are moving out of State. So the pastor is realy hopeful that my family will be relocating there.
I know moving there will not be some sort of cure all. There might be unseen reasons why this church is taking so long to grow. So we are taking it slow and not making any hasty decisions. After having had a couple of weeks to think and pray about this situation, I still feel the desire to leave the church I'm currently attending. While my pastor's recent message on tithing certainly gave me a hint as to how he views my personal financial struggles, I can honestly say that were praying about leaving before he ever preached that message.
Some on this board, as well as other friends of mine, have admonished me to use the Matthew 18 model of confronting my pastor. I certainly have not rejected their opinion, but I do have some questions about that approach. Jesus said to use that approach if a brother has "sinned". I'm not sure that I am accusing my pastor of having "sinned". I simply feel that he has erred doctrinally, and that it might not be fair to either one of us for me to continue to submit to his leadership since my philosophy on Malachi ch 3 and his are poles apart. In the final anaysis, he is the pastor of that church, and it is he who will have to give an account to God for what he preaches. That is his burden to bear and not mine.
Some have also felt that I should be personally reconciled to my pastor. I also have reservations about this since I do not hold him any personal malice, nor am I accusing him of attacking me personally. He is a true man of God. But with our considerable differences concerning philosophy of ministry, I don't see any future there in that church for me as far as recommendation for ministry is concerned. Some pastors are easily enamored by those church members who are "worker bees" and devote every bit a free time they have to the church. I simply cannot fit that mold right now for economic reasons, and I do think this puts questions in my pastor's mind concerning me and my calling.
Finally, I must admit my own weaknesses. I do feel bruised spiritually from all that we have been through in the past 3 years. Feelings of failure constantly flood over me. Condemnation from easily besetting sins I struggled with in the past are even haunting me. Voices scream in my head that this is some sort of delayed punishment. Certainly I am partly to blame for where I am at in life. I chose a career that turned out to be vulnerable and risky, and I did not sufficiently prepare for the possibility that my career might fail. But even if I did blow it, or did not heed possible warning signs soon enough, can't God still forgive me and help me? Why is that even a question? I know the encouragement I would give to others facing similar circumstances. Why can't I seem to encourage myself? It really stinks.
Thanks to all for your continued prayers on our behalf.
Aquila
09-17-2013, 09:33 AM
Whatever you do, be cautious. You're in a vulnerable position right now. I've prayed for you again after reading your post. If you settle and find a church home, embrace it and praise God for it. However, if something happens... let me know. Many have been where you are. Keep the faith my brother.
n david
09-17-2013, 09:36 AM
This church only had about 20 adults in attendence. Most of them do not even live in the small town where the church is located. Some drive a great distance (more than an hour) just to support this small work. I find it a bit odd that this church has been in existence more than 4 years now and does not have members from the local area.
That is odd, and would make me pause before committing to the change.
crakjak
09-17-2013, 09:50 AM
That is odd, and would make me pause before committing to the change.
My thoughts exactly, pastor may be a fine and loving man, but may not be a leader, or very effective in the preaching ministry. He may be a great friend, and it may be a place of healing, however you (poster) may get stuck in a place of relationship that is not conducive to spiritual growth and therefore again you don't go forward. Four years is not all that long, but why has the community not responded, he may simply have drawn a few unhappy members for area churches, that are always moving around. If the church is not growing there is a reason, and it is not a lack of hungry people. Just my thoughts.
endtimer
09-17-2013, 09:50 AM
I echo what Aquila said. THis caught my attention "I find it a bit odd that this church has been in existence more than 4 years now and does not have members from the local area."
I immediately wonder: Are these members from other churches? If they are, why are they there now? Could be a source of conflict (differing cultures, beliefs and standards). Why is this church after 4 years not winning souls near by? Not accusing here, but Ive seen plenty of churches happy to take in members of other churches, not win any body new to Christ and still consider them selves a growing church. Again, not accusing just wondering if this is a good situation. I think you are right to find this odd.
Aquila
09-17-2013, 09:53 AM
I discovered that the Lord was showing me some things in my search for a church home. The end result was beautiful.
endtimer
09-17-2013, 10:00 AM
I discovered that the Lord was showing me some things in my search for a church home. The end result was beautiful.
Classic God. Would NEVER want to go through the hell Ive lived over the last 7 years again, but in the end I am so thankful for it all the deep lessons learned. The end result is turning out to be beautiful for me too.
Esaias
09-17-2013, 10:11 AM
This was the small church I mentioned previously in another post.
I met with the pastor of this church about a week ago. We discussed all of the seemingly logical reasons I should start attending his church. We also discussed the recent message preached by my pastor concerning tithing. While the pastor of this small church also practises and teaches tithing as a "principle", he also has difficulty in using the passages in Malachi as some sort of whip to scare people into giving.
This church only had about 20 adults in attendence. Most of them do not even live in the small town where the church is located. Some drive a great distance (more than an hour) just to support this small work. I find it a bit odd that this church has been in existence more than 4 years now and does not have members from the local area. The day we visited was one promonent family's last Sunday there because they are moving out of State. So the pastor is realy hopeful that my family will be relocating there.
I know moving there will not be some sort of cure all. There might be unseen reasons why this church is taking so long to grow. So we are taking it slow and not making any hasty decisions. After having had a couple of weeks to think and pray about this situation, I still feel the desire to leave the church I'm currently attending. While my pastor's recent message on tithing certainly gave me a hint as to how he views my personal financial struggles, I can honestly say that were praying about leaving before he ever preached that message.
Some on this board, as well as other friends of mine, have admonished me to use the Matthew 18 model of confronting my pastor. I certainly have not rejected their opinion, but I do have some questions about that approach. Jesus said to use that approach if a brother has "sinned". I'm not sure that I am accusing my pastor of having "sinned". I simply feel that he has erred doctrinally, and that it might not be fair to either one of us for me to continue to submit to his leadership since my philosophy on Malachi ch 3 and his are poles apart. In the final anaysis, he is the pastor of that church, and it is he who will have to give an account to God for what he preaches. That is his burden to bear and not mine.
Some have also felt that I should be personally reconciled to my pastor. I also have reservations about this since I do not hold him any personal malice, nor am I accusing him of attacking me personally. He is a true man of God. But with our considerable differences concerning philosophy of ministry, I don't see any future there in that church for me as far as recommendation for ministry is concerned. Some pastors are easily enamored by those church members who are "worker bees" and devote every bit a free time they have to the church. I simply cannot fit that mold right now for economic reasons, and I do think this puts questions in my pastor's mind concerning me and my calling.
Finally, I must admit my own weaknesses. I do feel bruised spiritually from all that we have been through in the past 3 years. Feelings of failure constantly flood over me. Condemnation from easily besetting sins I struggled with in the past are even haunting me. Voices scream in my head that this is some sort of delayed punishment. Certainly I am partly to blame for where I am at in life. I chose a career that turned out to be vulnerable and risky, and I did not sufficiently prepare for the possibility that my career might fail. But even if I did blow it, or did not heed possible warning signs soon enough, can't God still forgive me and help me? Why is that even a question? I know the encouragement I would give to others facing similar circumstances. Why can't I seem to encourage myself? It really stinks.
Thanks to all for your continued prayers on our behalf.
What will YOU contribute to this assembly?
I hate to paraphrase JFK, but...
Originalist
09-17-2013, 10:15 AM
What will YOU contribute to this assembly?
I hate to paraphrase JFK, but...
I dealt with this in the other thread.
Esaias
09-17-2013, 11:37 AM
Well then, the path forward looks pretty clear to me.
Of course, I'm not in the middle of the situation, however, I think if it were me in your shoes, I'd choose to 'go local'.
Michael The Disciple
09-17-2013, 02:04 PM
I echo what Aquila said. THis caught my attention "I find it a bit odd that this church has been in existence more than 4 years now and does not have members from the local area."
I immediately wonder: Are these members from other churches? If they are, why are they there now? Could be a source of conflict (differing cultures, beliefs and standards). Why is this church after 4 years not winning souls near by? Not accusing here, but Ive seen plenty of churches happy to take in members of other churches, not win any body new to Christ and still consider them selves a growing church. Again, not accusing just wondering if this is a good situation. I think you are right to find this odd.
Just because its not growing in numbers is no reason to not go in itself. Christ always put quality above quantity. Very, very few people are interested in the true path of discipleship he offers.
Perhaps probe deeper into his personal doctrinal beliefs. The quickest way in this time to turn people off is to preach truth. Maybe he is a post trib? Maybe believes in soul sleep? Maybe believes in overcoming sin? Try that before you write it off.
And then theres the possibility theres just no zeal or vision? And yet it does not seem to me like you can continue going where you are now. No way.
Esaias
09-17-2013, 02:59 PM
Just because its not growing in numbers is no reason to not go in itself.
Not to mention the church may be destined for Originalist to arrive and spark a revival...
endtimer
09-17-2013, 04:26 PM
Just because its not growing in numbers is no reason to not go in itself. Christ always put quality above quantity. Very, very few people are interested in the true path of discipleship he offers.
Perhaps probe deeper into his personal doctrinal beliefs. The quickest way in this time to turn people off is to preach truth. Maybe he is a post trib? Maybe believes in soul sleep? Maybe believes in overcoming sin? Try that before you write it off.
And then theres the possibility theres just no zeal or vision? And yet it does not seem to me like you can continue going where you are now. No way.
No where in my comments were suggestions that he should not attend. I got a feeling he can figure out what he wants to do with out me suggesting he go or not. I am simply agreeing with him that it is a bit strange to have zero locals going to a church that has been in the area 4 years. I further elaborate on my caution with questions worthy to be addressed. I see you raise a few questions yourself... your questions do not disqualify mine.
Praxeas
09-17-2013, 04:27 PM
Not to mention the church may be destined for Originalist to arrive and spark a revival...
but ONLY after they "Come out of her my people" :heeheehee
endtimer
09-17-2013, 04:28 PM
Not to mention the church may be destined for Originalist to arrive and spark a revival...
Please elaborate on this. Very curious as to how this could work out.
Esaias
09-17-2013, 04:32 PM
Please elaborate on this. Very curious as to how this could work out.
He stated he already knew and had influence with people in that community (or did I misunderstand??) He is what may be called a 'person of influence', or a man who is 'heard in the gates'.
God may be moving him into a position where his presence and ministry in that local assembly may lead many others to Christ.
Esaias
09-17-2013, 04:33 PM
but ONLY after they "Come out of her my people" :heeheehee
Very funny. I do think you misunderstand my position regarding churches, buildings, 501(c)3, denominations, the work of God, and a lot of things related to those things.
God works on things over time, and we have no choice but to work on things over time, since we are temporal beings.
:icecream
Praxeas
09-17-2013, 04:39 PM
Very funny. I do think you misunderstand my position regarding churches, buildings, 501(c)3, denominations, the work of God, and a lot of things related to those things.
God works on things over time, and we have no choice but to work on things over time, since we are temporal beings.
:icecream
We were actually dealing with HER position, not so much yours
Esaias
09-17-2013, 04:41 PM
We were actually dealing with HER position, not so much yours
Yes, well, is chivalry dead?
Praxeas
09-17-2013, 04:44 PM
I went to visit a church recently
It was quiet as can be, seriously. There was nobody prais'n the Lord, nobody but me.
Praxeas
09-17-2013, 04:44 PM
Yes, well, is chivalry dead?
Unless she wants to admit she really screwed up her first post, we did not misunderstand what she posted
Esaias
09-17-2013, 04:49 PM
Unless she wants to admit she really screwed up her first post, we did not misunderstand what she posted
Perhaps *I* misunderstand her. I took her to be saying that the RCC corrupted christianity in many ways, that that same corruption is afflicting the apostolic church (and 'churches' in general) today, and that we are expected by God to 'come out' from such corruption. Further, (and this I thought was her main point) she is in a dilemma of deciding whether to a) attend a church she believes may have corruption but it may possibly provide a benefit to her family members she cannot provide them otherwise, or b) take a stand for doctrinal purity and possibly cause her family members to maybe stumble.
The 'buildings' issue was - in my understanding - a minor, side issue.
And furthermore, I think we ought not to continue hijacking this thread lol.
Michael The Disciple
09-17-2013, 05:02 PM
No where in my comments were suggestions that he should not attend. I got a feeling he can figure out what he wants to do with out me suggesting he go or not. I am simply agreeing with him that it is a bit strange to have zero locals going to a church that has been in the area 4 years. I further elaborate on my caution with questions worthy to be addressed. I see you raise a few questions yourself... your questions do not disqualify mine.
My comments were not to disqualify yours, just to point out there could be a good reason why only a few are there. Remember I ALSO said maybe they have no zeal or vision. Just trying to help:highfive
houston
09-17-2013, 05:15 PM
Please elaborate on this. Very curious as to how this could work out.
Originslist is a minister, a missionary.
Praxeas
09-17-2013, 05:25 PM
Perhaps *I* misunderstand her. I took her to be saying that the RCC corrupted christianity in many ways, that that same corruption is afflicting the apostolic church (and 'churches' in general) today, and that we are expected by God to 'come out' from such corruption. Further, (and this I thought was her main point) she is in a dilemma of deciding whether to a) attend a church she believes may have corruption but it may possibly provide a benefit to her family members she cannot provide them otherwise, or b) take a stand for doctrinal purity and possibly cause her family members to maybe stumble.
The 'buildings' issue was - in my understanding - a minor, side issue.
And furthermore, I think we ought not to continue hijacking this thread lol.
She said the church is pagan. As part of a list of Pagan things incorporated into the church by the RCC was the use of buildings. She very clearly used the word PAGAN and a bible reference to Babylon and then said but she was not calling those things a sin, then later admitted they were. I quoted her
In fact she tried to support her "It's all Pagan" assertion by quoting various websites where she apparently did not realize it ALSO included the virgin birth and the Son dying.
Back to the topic
endtimer
09-18-2013, 06:02 AM
He stated he already knew and had influence with people in that community (or did I misunderstand??) He is what may be called a 'person of influence', or a man who is 'heard in the gates'.
God may be moving him into a position where his presence and ministry in that local assembly may lead many others to Christ.
Ok, I understand where your coming from. You are talking influence not Messianic here. :thumbsup Man, I've heard some crazy theories for revival.
Jermyn Davidson
09-18-2013, 06:32 AM
When I think about your idea of leaving your church to join another one, these are the things that come to mind.
1) You don't really know if your current Pastor was really aiming at you, neither do you know his intents because you refuse to speak with him about a hurt that may be real or might be imaginary. Why do you refuse to become transparent with him over your hurts?
2) Your potential "new" Pastor's view on tithing is still different from yours and fairly similar to your current Pastor's view. So joining this church for that reasoning is not sensible.
3) With all that is going on, I want to urge you to "be still and see the salvation of the Lord". You're discouraged right now, I get it. But you are discouraged over situations and issues that are not anyone else's doing. Unless there are other things going that I have either simply missed or you haven't posted about, I don't see a strong reason for you to move in the direction you are moving. I don't know you well, but do you have a struggle with pride? Brother, it may not be pride, only you and the Lord know the whole story. I am urging you to wait before making any more decisions.
4) Ackee fruit is grown in a handful of islands but Jamaica is the only one to deem it edible. Not only edible, but their national fruit. When this bright red fruit is ripe, it splits open to reveal three large black seeds. However, the ackee is poisonous if eaten before ripe. When ripe and dried, the seeds, fruit bark, and leaves are used medicinally. Joining a small work can be a great opportunity for a Christian who has great zeal for the Lord and His House, but what have you done to verify that it is indeed His Time for you to do this?
5) You remember Moses? God called him and when Moses tried to do what he thought was right, he ended up killing someone, making himself a target, and he was forced to dwell in the dessert for 40 years. He learned a lot in the dessert and ultimately, this could have been God's Will all along. Yet the Old Testament is there for us to learn from and one thing I've learned from Moses' story and from living is that it is often best to wait on God.
6) You are troubled, maybe even shaken right now, but I think you also have a family to think about in all of this-- making it more imperative for you to wait and be led by God right now in this storm. If there were people watching your steps, what would they be learning from you? What would they be seeing from you?
Brother, wait.
Originalist
09-18-2013, 06:38 AM
When I think about your idea of leaving your church to join another one, these are the things that come to mind.
1) You don't really know if your current Pastor was really aiming at you, neither do you know his intents because you refuse to speak with him about a hurt that may be real or might be imaginary. Why do you refuse to become transparent with him over your hurts?
2) Your potential "new" Pastor's view on tithing is still different from yours and fairly similar to your current Pastor's view. So joining this church for that reasoning is not sensible.
3) With all that is going on, I want to urge you to "be still and see the salvation of the Lord". You're discouraged right now, I get it. But you are discouraged over situations and issues that are not anyone else's doing. Unless there are other things going that I have either simply missed or you haven't posted about, I don't see a strong reason for you to move in the direction you are moving. I don't know you well, but do you have a struggle with pride? Brother, it may not be pride, only you and the Lord know the whole story. I am urging you to wait before making any more decisions.
4) Ackee fruit is grown in a handful of islands but Jamaica is the only one to deem it edible. Not only edible, but their national fruit. When this bright red fruit is ripe, it splits open to reveal three large black seeds. However, the ackee is poisonous if eaten before ripe. When ripe and dried, the seeds, fruit bark, and leaves are used medicinally. Joining a small work can be a great opportunity for a Christian who has great zeal for the Lord and His House, but what have you done to verify that it is indeed His Time for you to do this?
5) You remember Moses? God called him and when Moses tried to do what he thought was right, he ended up killing someone, making himself a target, and he was forced to dwell in the dessert for 40 years. He learned a lot in the dessert and ultimately, this could have been God's Will all along. Yet the Old Testament is there for us to learn from and one thing I've learned from Moses' story and from living is that it is often best to wait on God.
6) You are troubled, maybe even shaken right now, but I think you also have a family to think about in all of this-- making it more imperative for you to wait and be led by God right now in this storm. If there were people watching your steps, what would they be learning from you? What would they be seeing from you?
Brother, wait.
Please know I appreciate the deep thought that went into this post. Nothing will be done in haste.
endtimer
09-18-2013, 06:46 AM
My comments were not to disqualify yours, just to point out there could be a good reason why only a few are there. Remember I ALSO said maybe they have no zeal or vision. Just trying to help:highfive
I gotcha. :thumbsup
endtimer
09-18-2013, 06:54 AM
When I think about your idea of leaving your church to join another one, these are the things that come to mind.
1) You don't really know if your current Pastor was really aiming at you, neither do you know his intents because you refuse to speak with him about a hurt that may be real or might be imaginary. Why do you refuse to become transparent with him over your hurts?
2) Your potential "new" Pastor's view on tithing is still different from yours and fairly similar to your current Pastor's view. So joining this church for that reasoning is not sensible.
3) With all that is going on, I want to urge you to "be still and see the salvation of the Lord". You're discouraged right now, I get it. But you are discouraged over situations and issues that are not anyone else's doing. Unless there are other things going that I have either simply missed or you haven't posted about, I don't see a strong reason for you to move in the direction you are moving. I don't know you well, but do you have a struggle with pride? Brother, it may not be pride, only you and the Lord know the whole story. I am urging you to wait before making any more decisions.
4) Ackee fruit is grown in a handful of islands but Jamaica is the only one to deem it edible. Not only edible, but their national fruit. When this bright red fruit is ripe, it splits open to reveal three large black seeds. However, the ackee is poisonous if eaten before ripe. When ripe and dried, the seeds, fruit bark, and leaves are used medicinally. Joining a small work can be a great opportunity for a Christian who has great zeal for the Lord and His House, but what have you done to verify that it is indeed His Time for you to do this?
5) You remember Moses? God called him and when Moses tried to do what he thought was right, he ended up killing someone, making himself a target, and he was forced to dwell in the dessert for 40 years. He learned a lot in the dessert and ultimately, this could have been God's Will all along. Yet the Old Testament is there for us to learn from and one thing I've learned from Moses' story and from living is that it is often best to wait on God.
6) You are troubled, maybe even shaken right now, but I think you also have a family to think about in all of this-- making it more imperative for you to wait and be led by God right now in this storm. If there were people watching your steps, what would they be learning from you? What would they be seeing from you?
Brother, wait.
Wise words Jermyn. I know from my own experience, its likely if you weren't happy with the pastors leadership, you wont be happy with the leadership of one his followers.
Originalist
09-18-2013, 11:13 AM
.
I don't know you well, but do you have a struggle with pride?
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Therefore, I will not automatically answer "no" to this question. I do not think I have a pride problem. But I'll pray about it. Perhaps you could elaborate a bit more. Pride can take on subtle forms.
Your potential "new" Pastor's view on tithing is still different from yours and fairly similar to your current Pastor's view. So joining this church for that reasoning is not sensible.
He did say that he rejects the idea of using "Malachi's curse" as a motivator to get people to tithe. He related a story to me of how back in 2005 their home and possessions were completely wiped out by a hurricane. At the time, they were attending the same church I am now. They literally had the clothes on their back and nothing more. They struggled for months to get back on their feet, living with church members. It was during this trial that someone said from the pulpit, "If bad things are happening to you, it's because you aren't faithful in your tithing!!" He did not say who made that comment, but the comment did devistate he and his wife. I'd like to think that this experience does cause him to hold a differing view from that of my pastor.
You don't really know if your current Pastor was really aiming at you, neither do you know his intents because you refuse to speak with him about a hurt that may be real or might be imaginary. Why do you refuse to become transparent with him over your hurts?
Perhaps he was not even thinking of me at all. Either way, it was wrong for whoever he had in mind. But he did CLEARLY say that IN EVERY CASE he can tell why certain people are struggling by simply looking at their giving record. That's a big deal. It puts me in a position where I'd have to teach a new convert something different than what my pastor teaches on this matter. People are not dumb. They pick up on things and ask questions. I simply would not be able to affirm such a teaching to a convert who asked me about it.
The reason I have so far chosen not to confront him over this is I'm not certain it is worth the hastle. Even if with great respect I say, "thou art the man", I will be finished. He may not black list me or even discuss it with anyone, but the strain will be there and I will be consigned to staring at the back of people's heads.
Last night I made an interesting observation. I used to preach regularly at my church. It has been 11 months since he has asked me to preach. Granted, I was in Mexico for two of those months, and I was only able to go to church for one service a week for 5 of those months while I was working 2 jobs. But that still leaves 4 months. And he is very outspoken about missing church for work. He says that if your job keeps you out of church, you are not working where God wants you to. So it would seem that a subtle message is being sent my way.
Unless there are other things going that I have either simply missed or you haven't posted about, I don't see a strong reason for you to move in the direction you are moving.
And so far, I'm not convinced yet that I should move to the other church. Ironically enough, the one who could possibly give some insight into the goings on at the other church would be my pastor himself!!
Again, thanks for your concern. I do not take your words lightly.
Jermyn Davidson
09-18-2013, 11:58 PM
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Therefore, I will not automatically answer "no" to this question. I do not think I have a pride problem. But I'll pray about it. (1) Perhaps you could elaborate a bit more. Pride can take on subtle forms.
He did say that he rejects the idea of using "Malachi's curse" as a motivator to get people to tithe. He related a story to me of how back in 2005 their home and possessions were completely wiped out by a hurricane. At the time, they were attending the same church I am now. They literally had the clothes on their back and nothing more. They struggled for months to get back on their feet, living with church members. It was during this trial that someone said from the pulpit, "If bad things are happening to you, it's because you aren't faithful in your tithing!!" He did not say who made that comment, but the comment did devistate he and his wife. (2) I'd like to think that this experience does cause him to hold a differing view from that of my pastor.
(3) Perhaps he was not even thinking of me at all. Either way, it was wrong for whoever he had in mind. But he did CLEARLY say that IN EVERY CASE he can tell why certain people are struggling by simply looking at their giving record. That's a big deal. (4) It puts me in a position where I'd have to teach a new convert something different than what my pastor teaches on this matter. People are not dumb. They pick up on things and ask questions. I simply would not be able to affirm such a teaching to a convert who asked me about it.
The reason I have so far chosen not to confront him over this is I'm not certain it is worth the hastle. Even if with great respect I say, "thou art the man", I will be finished. (5) He may not black list me or even discuss it with anyone, but the strain will be there and I will be consigned to staring at the back of people's heads.
Last night I made an interesting observation. I used to preach regularly at my church. It has been 11 months since he has asked me to preach. Granted, I was in Mexico for two of those months, and I was only able to go to church for one service a week for 5 of those months while I was working 2 jobs. But that still leaves 4 months. And he is very outspoken about missing church for work. (6) He says that if your job keeps you out of church, you are not working where God wants you to. So it would seem that a subtle message is being sent my way.
And so far, I'm not convinced yet that I should move to the other church. Ironically enough, the one who could possibly give some insight into the goings on at the other church would be my pastor himself!!
Again, thanks for your concern. I do not take your words lightly.
(1) Any elaborating I could do would be close to me simply guessing and you don't need people guessing. While you are waiting, ask God about it.
(2) I thought you said that he didn't hold a different view from your current Pastor concerning tithing, just doesn't use Malachi to justify his view. Whether I take Hwy 90 west or I-10 west, I'll still end up in Pensacola, FL. Be clear as you pray and know that the two Pastors in question believe the same way about tithing. You KNOW this because you said so, plus if you've been with this organization for quite sometime, then you know the general view that members and leaders in this organization usually take concerning tithing.
(3) This statement really, really bothers you and it is all the more reason for you to speak with your Pastor about it. That's just the best thing to do. When you speak with him, you need to be as transparent as you can about the hurt and doubt his words caused you and your wife. Maybe you can bring up the fact that other Pastors that you know of make it a point to NOT KNOW the tithing records of their individual saints. Pastor Michael Williams is one who doesn't look at the tithing records of his members and I am SURE he's not the only one who sees the Pastoral wisdom in this. Or maybe after you show him your scars, your Pastor will apologize and maybe even retool his presentation of what he and your potential new Pastor both believe. Speaking directly with this man of God about your offense will help you in more than 1 way and it is a diabolical plot of satan to make you think that speaking with your Pastor about his words that hurt you is not a good or effective idea. He is not your enemy. Make an appointment to see him in private and discuss your feelings with him in private.
(4) I definitely understand your point here. Still, I ask how long have you been a member of this church? How long have you been active in this church? In times past, what did you tell the new converts before-- you know, the new converts you mentored before this same Pastor trusted your calling and walk with God enough to support your decision to go to Mexico? Do you understand what I'm getting at? Unless you simply don't believe in tithing at all, whatever view you do have about tithing is probably not enough to disrupt the unity of this body of believers you have been a part of for some time now. If it is, all of a sudden, a thorny issue for you and you KNOW you were able to somehow rectify everything before, try to figure out what changed. The change may lie in your perception which has been rocked lately because of the storms you have been through relatively recently-- all the more reason for you to stand still. The church teaches tithing, you are usually a tither, the Lord knows your heart and you can elaborate on the confidence we have with God who knows the whole story when your new converts find themselves in a dilemma concerning tithing.
(5) What if it is God's Will for you to go through this? When you do have this conversation with him, you should bring up the strain that you think will develop. You should bring up how he hasn't used you to preach like in times past. It will be a difficult conversation, but nothing bad will come from it. If you find out that the differences are irreconcilable and that he has purposefully yet unofficially, "sat you down" because of your unfaithfulness in tithing, then the both of you will have established the facts concerning this situation. After the conversation, you will need to pray and make sure that your conviction about tithing is truly Biblical. Even if you are right and he is wrong, is this an area where you simply cannot agree to disagree? If you cannot simply agree to disagree and follow peace and unity, then joining this other church will not be the right decision either. Fellowship within an organization requires the humility to accept that everyone will not see everything the same way and the realization that you and the organization would do better with your membership and active participation than without your membership and active participation. The organization you are a part of preaches tithing as a Biblical command-- so does much of Evangelical Christianity.
(6) Cautiously, I would agree to the extent that if your job is limiting your meaningful Christian fellowship to only once a month, then there is a strong chance that you have placed yourself outside of the Will of God in this particular area. Meaningful Christian Fellowship doesn't have to be a church service, especially for "Joe the member". But you aren't "Joe the member" and you haven't been "Joe the member" for quite sometime now. You're a leader in this congregation, which means that your Pastor at one point had a considerable amount of trust in you, your stable lifestyle, and your commitment to the Gospel and your commitment to that local body-- leadership and parishioners. Honestly, showing up to church once a month would be a violation of that trust, especially if you have not spoken with your Pastor about the drastic but temporary change.
I think your current Pastor should have spoken with you about all this a long time ago. But if he's anything like my Dad, he's been holding out hope that you would correct yourself and that you would again be the type of follower he found you to be when he decided to allow you to be a leader in the congregation that he pastors.
Whether you see the need to correct yourself or not, do yourself the favor and make an appointment with your Pastor right away. Stop letting this fester. Get the facts, get clarity and stay on your knees through this process so that whatever decision you make in the future, you will have the confidence that you were following the Voice of our GOD and Savior.
satan loves it when you second guess the past, so don't allow him that ability any further.
Ask a few others (wife, couple close, close friends) to pray for God to give you wisdom and a heart to hear Him. I wouldn't even go into the details if they have to ask, but you need to be covered in prayer because you appear to be a man with a call of God on your life and satan would love to make sure that you never fulfill God's Will in your life by whatever tricks he can pull.
Originalist
09-19-2013, 04:07 AM
(1) Any elaborating I could do would be close to me simply guessing and you don't need people guessing. While you are waiting, ask God about it.
(2) I thought you said that he didn't hold a different view from your current Pastor concerning tithing, just doesn't use Malachi to justify his view. Whether I take Hwy 90 west or I-10 west, I'll still end up in Pensacola, FL. Be clear as you pray and know that the two Pastors in question believe the same way about tithing. You KNOW this because you said so, plus if you've been with this organization for quite sometime, then you know the general view that members and leaders in this organization usually take concerning tithing.
(3) This statement really, really bothers you and it is all the more reason for you to speak with your Pastor about it. That's just the best thing to do. When you speak with him, you need to be as transparent as you can about the hurt and doubt his words caused you and your wife. Maybe you can bring up the fact that other Pastors that you know of make it a point to NOT KNOW the tithing records of their individual saints. Pastor Michael Williams is one who doesn't look at the tithing records of his members and I am SURE he's not the only one who sees the Pastoral wisdom in this. Or maybe after you show him your scars, your Pastor will apologize and maybe even retool his presentation of what he and your potential new Pastor both believe. Speaking directly with this man of God about your offense will help you in more than 1 way and it is a diabolical plot of satan to make you think that speaking with your Pastor about his words that hurt you is not a good or effective idea. He is not your enemy. Make an appointment to see him in private and discuss your feelings with him in private.
(4) I definitely understand your point here. Still, I ask how long have you been a member of this church? How long have you been active in this church? In times past, what did you tell the new converts before-- you know, the new converts you mentored before this same Pastor trusted your calling and walk with God enough to support your decision to go to Mexico? Do you understand what I'm getting at? Unless you simply don't believe in tithing at all, whatever view you do have about tithing is probably not enough to disrupt the unity of this body of believers you have been a part of for some time now. If it is, all of a sudden, a thorny issue for you and you KNOW you were able to somehow rectify everything before, try to figure out what changed. The change may lie in your perception which has been rocked lately because of the storms you have been through relatively recently-- all the more reason for you to stand still. The church teaches tithing, you are usually a tither, the Lord knows your heart and you can elaborate on the confidence we have with God who knows the whole story when your new converts find themselves in a dilemma concerning tithing.
(5) What if it is God's Will for you to go through this? When you do have this conversation with him, you should bring up the strain that you think will develop. You should bring up how he hasn't used you to preach like in times past. It will be a difficult conversation, but nothing bad will come from it. If you find out that the differences are irreconcilable and that he has purposefully yet unofficially, "sat you down" because of your unfaithfulness in tithing, then the both of you will have established the facts concerning this situation. After the conversation, you will need to pray and make sure that your conviction about tithing is truly Biblical. Even if you are right and he is wrong, is this an area where you simply cannot agree to disagree? If you cannot simply agree to disagree and follow peace and unity, then joining this other church will not be the right decision either. Fellowship within an organization requires the humility to accept that everyone will not see everything the same way and the realization that you and the organization would do better with your membership and active participation than without your membership and active participation. The organization you are a part of preaches tithing as a Biblical command-- so does much of Evangelical Christianity.
(6) Cautiously, I would agree to the extent that if your job is limiting your meaningful Christian fellowship to only once a month, then there is a strong chance that you have placed yourself outside of the Will of God in this particular area. Meaningful Christian Fellowship doesn't have to be a church service, especially for "Joe the member". But you aren't "Joe the member" and you haven't been "Joe the member" for quite sometime now. You're a leader in this congregation, which means that your Pastor at one point had a considerable amount of trust in you, your stable lifestyle, and your commitment to the Gospel and your commitment to that local body-- leadership and parishioners. Honestly, showing up to church once a month would be a violation of that trust, especially if you have not spoken with your Pastor about the drastic but temporary change.
I think your current Pastor should have spoken with you about all this a long time ago. But if he's anything like my Dad, he's been holding out hope that you would correct yourself and that you would again be the type of follower he found you to be when he decided to allow you to be a leader in the congregation that he pastors.
Whether you see the need to correct yourself or not, do yourself the favor and make an appointment with your Pastor right away. Stop letting this fester. Get the facts, get clarity and stay on your knees through this process so that whatever decision you make in the future, you will have the confidence that you were following the Voice of our GOD and Savior.
satan loves it when you second guess the past, so don't allow him that ability any further.
Ask a few others (wife, couple close, close friends) to pray for God to give you wisdom and a heart to hear Him. I wouldn't even go into the details if they have to ask, but you need to be covered in prayer because you appear to be a man with a call of God on your life and satan would love to make sure that you never fulfill God's Will in your life by whatever tricks he can pull.
I just want to clarify one remark. I have been faithful in "tithing". My financial storm might indicate to him that I have not, but I have.
Jermyn Davidson
09-19-2013, 08:56 AM
I just want to clarify one remark. I have been faithful in "tithing". My financial storm might indicate to him that I have not, but I have.
Please clear the air between you and your Pastor in private. Leave NOTHING PERTINENT unaddressed.
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