Originalist
09-19-2013, 06:34 PM
I am a member of a Church of God forum. My "signature" is a quote by Dr. Daniel Segraves which reads....
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI
It appears at the bottom of any post I make.
This morning I started a thread concerning Tom Delay's conviction being overturned. That is when, out of the blue, one of the other members made this comment on the Tom Delay thread.......
You have a statement at the end of each post that says;
Quote:
""It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do."
I believe in God the Father who had a Son.
I believe in Jesus his Son who was while on earth, God in the flesh, completely one in the spirit, yet separate from the Father. Example when he was baptized a dove appeared above Him and a voice from heaven spoke "This is my beloved Son whom I am well pleased". Now he sits on the right hand of God. He was on the earth the Father was in heaven. To me this settles this issue of "oneness".
I believe in the Holy Spirit of God who lives within me.
This to my count is three.
Acts 2:33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. NASB
1.) God sitting on His throne
2.) Jesus at His right hand
3.) Holy Spirit pouring forth this which you both see and hear.
Scripture says my wife and I are one. At times we sure do not act like it but Scripture says we are. That's good enough for me.
I relied to his comment thus....
If you'll read the quote on my signature closely, it is a quote of a leading Oneness leader admonishing his Oneness brothers not to falsely accuse Trinitarians of believing in "three gods".
I assume by your comments that you are disagreeing with Dr. Segrave's comment, and that you do believe in three gods. If so, you are not a Trinitarian, but a Tritheist.
This was completely off the subject, and was really a rather strange thing for him to do. The operator of the board as basically banned lengthy Oneness/Trinity debates on that forum, and I try to respect his wishes.
The poster then replied....
From Dictionary.com:
Quote:
"belief in three Gods, especially in the doctrine that the three persons of the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) are three distinct Gods, each an independent center of consciousness and determination."
One was distinctly in heaven speaking as another was distinctly being baptized.
One was distinctly sitting on His throne the other distinctly was at his right hand the other was distinctly pouring out blessings.
Now I still don't know if he was quoting the definition of Tritheism or Trinitarianism.
I continued....
You really did not answer my point. My signature is an admonition from a leader within the oneness ranks who is correcting those in our movement who accuse Trinitarians of believing in "3 gods". I'm really surprised at your reaction to this. Most on this board would heartily agree with him and applaud him for pointing out that an unfair and untrue accusation has often been made by some oneness believers concerning Trinitarian theology. Your reactions seems to suggest that you disagree with him, and that Trinitarians do actually believe in three gods.
I was merely pointing out how your words are coming across, and trying to get some clarification of your remarks. Do you disagree with Dr. Seagrave's remarks?
Concerning the definition of Trinitarianism you posted from the dictionary, that can mean a thousand different things to a thousand different Trinitarians.
Trinitarians are divided into different schools of thought. Let's look at two, very radically differing views of the Trinity......
Quote:
“What we mean by divine trinity is that there are three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead , each one having His own personal spirit body, personal soul and personal spirit in the same sense that each human being, angel, or any other being has his own body, soul and spirit. We mean by body, whether a spirit body or a flesh body, the house for the indwelling of the personal soul and spirit. That soul is that which feels and the spirit is that which knows (Dake, 489).”
Regarding the his view of the trinity, Dake explains further:
Quote:
“As individual persons each can be called God and collectively they can be spoken of as one God because of their perfect unity. The word God is used either as a singular or a plural word like sheep.” (Dake, 489).
The problems inherent in this idea might not be readily apparent to all, but it clearly demonstrates the problem with those who view the godhead as composed of three separate and distinct "persons," with three separate centers of consciousness.
Contrast this with the words of the late Dr. W.A. Criswell, former pastor of the First Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas and past president of the Southern Baptist Convention. In his book, Expository Sermons on Revelation, Criswell, a Trinitarian, shares his understanding of the nature of the Godhead and the deity of Christ in radically different terms than those of Dake....
Quote:
“I often wonder at people who think that in Heaven they are going to see three Gods. If you ever see three Gods, then you are not a monotheist, you are a polytheist. You believe in a multiplication of God’s—plural. ‘Hear O, Israel, the Lord our God is One.’ We know God as our Father, we know God as our savior and we know God by His Spirit in our hearts. But there are not three Gods. The true Christian is a monotheist. There is one God. ‘I and my Father are one.’ ‘He that has seen me has seen the Father.’ The Lord God is He that speaks. It is He that John saw when he turned around.
The only God you will ever see is the Lord God whom John saw in the lampstands. The only God you will ever feel is the Lord God’s Spirit in your heart. The only God there is, is the great Father of us all, the one Lord God, Christ. In the Old Testament we call Him Jehovah. In the New Testament, the New Covenant, we call Him Jesus, the One Great God…Never persuade yourself that in glory we are going to look at God No. 1 and God No.2 and God No.3. No! There is one great Lord God. We know Him as our Father, we know Him as our savior, and we know Him as the Holy Spirit in our hearts.
There is one God and this is the great God, called in the Old Testament, Jehovah, and, incarnate, called in the New Testament Jesus, the prince of Heaven, who is coming.” (Criswell. 1961-66. pp238-239).
Professor Alister McGrath is the Principal of the Hall, and Professor of Historical Theology at Oxford University. He studied at the universities of Oxford and Cambridge, and served in a parish in Nottingham before joining the staff at Wycliffe. He is one of the most widely read and influential Christian writers in the world, and travels extensively to speak at conferences and missions.
Quote:
If you look at the doctrine of the early church during the first two and a half centuries or so, you find that the doctrine of the Trinity has yet to be developed....That development took place in the third or fourth centuries.8
... the New Testament tends to think of the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of Christ as much as of God. The Spirit is understood to stand in the closest of possible relationships to Christ, so that his presence among the people of Christ is equivalent to the presence of Christ himself, just as the presence of Christ is treated as being that of God himself. In other words, to encounter the Son is really to encounter the Father and not some demigod or surrogate. To encounter the Spirit is really to encounter the Son and hence the Father. ... To affirm the divinity of Father, Son and Spirit is not to suggest that there are three gods, but simply that the one God can be encountered in these different ways, all of which are equally valid.11
It is not the doctrine of the Trinity which underlies the Christian faith, but the living God whom we encounter through Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit ... when we think of God, we don’t think of three individual gods, but of one God whom we experience and encounter in a three-fold manner.18
When you’re trying to explain Christianity to someone, the last thing you’d want to talk about is the trinity. Instead, you might begin by talking about Jesus Christ, about his death on the cross and resurrection, or you might talk about the possibility of encountering or experiencing God here and now.20
I'd like to point out that I did not start this thread, and I'm not trying to have a Oneness debate. Rather, I'm simply trying to get this thread's author to clarify his initial remarks, and to point out that Trinitarian views do differ widely.
That's when another poster jumped in and tried to crash the party. He starts bashing the UPC and tried to hijack the thread. I'll keep you posted. I did check Dictionary.com and he did quote the definition of tritheism!! I bet he got confused and thinks he quoted the definition of 'Trinity'! or perhaps I just encountered my first, real tritheist.
Dictionary.com defines "trinity".......
Also called Blessed Trinity, Holy Trinity. the union of three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, or the threefold personality of the one Divine Being.
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves UPCI
It appears at the bottom of any post I make.
This morning I started a thread concerning Tom Delay's conviction being overturned. That is when, out of the blue, one of the other members made this comment on the Tom Delay thread.......
You have a statement at the end of each post that says;
Quote:
""It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do."
I believe in God the Father who had a Son.
I believe in Jesus his Son who was while on earth, God in the flesh, completely one in the spirit, yet separate from the Father. Example when he was baptized a dove appeared above Him and a voice from heaven spoke "This is my beloved Son whom I am well pleased". Now he sits on the right hand of God. He was on the earth the Father was in heaven. To me this settles this issue of "oneness".
I believe in the Holy Spirit of God who lives within me.
This to my count is three.
Acts 2:33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. NASB
1.) God sitting on His throne
2.) Jesus at His right hand
3.) Holy Spirit pouring forth this which you both see and hear.
Scripture says my wife and I are one. At times we sure do not act like it but Scripture says we are. That's good enough for me.
I relied to his comment thus....
If you'll read the quote on my signature closely, it is a quote of a leading Oneness leader admonishing his Oneness brothers not to falsely accuse Trinitarians of believing in "three gods".
I assume by your comments that you are disagreeing with Dr. Segrave's comment, and that you do believe in three gods. If so, you are not a Trinitarian, but a Tritheist.
This was completely off the subject, and was really a rather strange thing for him to do. The operator of the board as basically banned lengthy Oneness/Trinity debates on that forum, and I try to respect his wishes.
The poster then replied....
From Dictionary.com:
Quote:
"belief in three Gods, especially in the doctrine that the three persons of the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) are three distinct Gods, each an independent center of consciousness and determination."
One was distinctly in heaven speaking as another was distinctly being baptized.
One was distinctly sitting on His throne the other distinctly was at his right hand the other was distinctly pouring out blessings.
Now I still don't know if he was quoting the definition of Tritheism or Trinitarianism.
I continued....
You really did not answer my point. My signature is an admonition from a leader within the oneness ranks who is correcting those in our movement who accuse Trinitarians of believing in "3 gods". I'm really surprised at your reaction to this. Most on this board would heartily agree with him and applaud him for pointing out that an unfair and untrue accusation has often been made by some oneness believers concerning Trinitarian theology. Your reactions seems to suggest that you disagree with him, and that Trinitarians do actually believe in three gods.
I was merely pointing out how your words are coming across, and trying to get some clarification of your remarks. Do you disagree with Dr. Seagrave's remarks?
Concerning the definition of Trinitarianism you posted from the dictionary, that can mean a thousand different things to a thousand different Trinitarians.
Trinitarians are divided into different schools of thought. Let's look at two, very radically differing views of the Trinity......
Quote:
“What we mean by divine trinity is that there are three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead , each one having His own personal spirit body, personal soul and personal spirit in the same sense that each human being, angel, or any other being has his own body, soul and spirit. We mean by body, whether a spirit body or a flesh body, the house for the indwelling of the personal soul and spirit. That soul is that which feels and the spirit is that which knows (Dake, 489).”
Regarding the his view of the trinity, Dake explains further:
Quote:
“As individual persons each can be called God and collectively they can be spoken of as one God because of their perfect unity. The word God is used either as a singular or a plural word like sheep.” (Dake, 489).
The problems inherent in this idea might not be readily apparent to all, but it clearly demonstrates the problem with those who view the godhead as composed of three separate and distinct "persons," with three separate centers of consciousness.
Contrast this with the words of the late Dr. W.A. Criswell, former pastor of the First Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas and past president of the Southern Baptist Convention. In his book, Expository Sermons on Revelation, Criswell, a Trinitarian, shares his understanding of the nature of the Godhead and the deity of Christ in radically different terms than those of Dake....
Quote:
“I often wonder at people who think that in Heaven they are going to see three Gods. If you ever see three Gods, then you are not a monotheist, you are a polytheist. You believe in a multiplication of God’s—plural. ‘Hear O, Israel, the Lord our God is One.’ We know God as our Father, we know God as our savior and we know God by His Spirit in our hearts. But there are not three Gods. The true Christian is a monotheist. There is one God. ‘I and my Father are one.’ ‘He that has seen me has seen the Father.’ The Lord God is He that speaks. It is He that John saw when he turned around.
The only God you will ever see is the Lord God whom John saw in the lampstands. The only God you will ever feel is the Lord God’s Spirit in your heart. The only God there is, is the great Father of us all, the one Lord God, Christ. In the Old Testament we call Him Jehovah. In the New Testament, the New Covenant, we call Him Jesus, the One Great God…Never persuade yourself that in glory we are going to look at God No. 1 and God No.2 and God No.3. No! There is one great Lord God. We know Him as our Father, we know Him as our savior, and we know Him as the Holy Spirit in our hearts.
There is one God and this is the great God, called in the Old Testament, Jehovah, and, incarnate, called in the New Testament Jesus, the prince of Heaven, who is coming.” (Criswell. 1961-66. pp238-239).
Professor Alister McGrath is the Principal of the Hall, and Professor of Historical Theology at Oxford University. He studied at the universities of Oxford and Cambridge, and served in a parish in Nottingham before joining the staff at Wycliffe. He is one of the most widely read and influential Christian writers in the world, and travels extensively to speak at conferences and missions.
Quote:
If you look at the doctrine of the early church during the first two and a half centuries or so, you find that the doctrine of the Trinity has yet to be developed....That development took place in the third or fourth centuries.8
... the New Testament tends to think of the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of Christ as much as of God. The Spirit is understood to stand in the closest of possible relationships to Christ, so that his presence among the people of Christ is equivalent to the presence of Christ himself, just as the presence of Christ is treated as being that of God himself. In other words, to encounter the Son is really to encounter the Father and not some demigod or surrogate. To encounter the Spirit is really to encounter the Son and hence the Father. ... To affirm the divinity of Father, Son and Spirit is not to suggest that there are three gods, but simply that the one God can be encountered in these different ways, all of which are equally valid.11
It is not the doctrine of the Trinity which underlies the Christian faith, but the living God whom we encounter through Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit ... when we think of God, we don’t think of three individual gods, but of one God whom we experience and encounter in a three-fold manner.18
When you’re trying to explain Christianity to someone, the last thing you’d want to talk about is the trinity. Instead, you might begin by talking about Jesus Christ, about his death on the cross and resurrection, or you might talk about the possibility of encountering or experiencing God here and now.20
I'd like to point out that I did not start this thread, and I'm not trying to have a Oneness debate. Rather, I'm simply trying to get this thread's author to clarify his initial remarks, and to point out that Trinitarian views do differ widely.
That's when another poster jumped in and tried to crash the party. He starts bashing the UPC and tried to hijack the thread. I'll keep you posted. I did check Dictionary.com and he did quote the definition of tritheism!! I bet he got confused and thinks he quoted the definition of 'Trinity'! or perhaps I just encountered my first, real tritheist.
Dictionary.com defines "trinity".......
Also called Blessed Trinity, Holy Trinity. the union of three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, or the threefold personality of the one Divine Being.