View Full Version : Do you still believe in/practice foot washing?
Esaias
09-23-2013, 02:41 PM
Simple question: do you still believe and practice actual, literal footwashing?
houston
09-23-2013, 02:57 PM
No.
RandyWayne
09-23-2013, 02:59 PM
Not "actual literal" foot washing, but I try to follow the principle of it, which was what the lesson was about.
Jermyn Davidson
09-23-2013, 03:09 PM
Yes.
It is a Bible command, just like repentance is a Bible command, and baptism is a Bible command.
Why wouldn't you do this? :blink
Michael The Disciple
09-23-2013, 03:32 PM
We washed feet about 6 months ago. I do not believe tho that it is an ordinance.
Esaias
09-23-2013, 03:36 PM
Yes.
It is a Bible command, just like repentance is a Bible command, and baptism is a Bible command.
Why wouldn't you do this? :blink
:thumbsup
Timmy
09-23-2013, 03:37 PM
I wash my feet every day.
Timmy
09-23-2013, 03:38 PM
We washed feet about 6 months ago. I do not believe tho that it is an ordinance.
Six months ago?! :blink
Timmy
09-23-2013, 03:38 PM
:heeheehee
n david
09-23-2013, 03:52 PM
I wash my feet every day.
Six months ago?! :blink
:slaphappy That's funny right there.
n david
09-23-2013, 03:53 PM
Our church just had a communion/foot washing service a couple months ago.
MawMaw
09-23-2013, 03:58 PM
Yes, I do. :nod
houston
09-23-2013, 06:54 PM
Yes. It is a Bible command, just like repentance is a Bible command, and baptism is a Bible command. Why wouldn't you do this? :blinkit is not a command.
RandyWayne
09-23-2013, 07:21 PM
it is not a command.
Your right, it's not. It was a situation that Jesus turned into a spontaneous object lesson on humility. If those adamant on ceremonial foot washing were to be honest, they would only do it with women washing the feet of men, with their hair.
Jason B
09-23-2013, 08:32 PM
Simple question: do you still believe and practice actual, literal footwashing?
No
seekerman
09-23-2013, 11:05 PM
Simple question: do you still believe and practice actual, literal footwashing?
Yes, still believe in it. No, haven't practiced it in a very long time.
Jermyn Davidson
09-24-2013, 04:11 AM
Your right, it's not. It was a situation that Jesus turned into a spontaneous object lesson on humility. If those adamant on ceremonial foot washing were to be honest, they would only do it with women washing the feet of men, with their hair.
Doesn't have to be a woman and it doesn't have to be with hair.
It is a command, but I will submit that while it is on par with baptism and communion, it is not on par with repentance and I wish I had corrected my original post immediately as this is what I believe.
Nitehawk013
09-24-2013, 04:23 AM
How in the world can anyone say it is a command as important as baptism? Good lord people.
Esaias
09-24-2013, 06:42 AM
How people cannot see this as a command is amazing to me.
After washing His disciples' feet, we read:
12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
He washed their feet, said He did it to give them an example. The purpose of the example? "That ye should do as I have done unto you'. He said 'ye also ought to wash one another's feet'.
So then they were obligated to wash one another's feet (that is what 'ought to' means, it means they had an obligation to do it, based upon his example). He said they should do as He had done, that is, they should wash one another's feet.
He then said they were not geater than He. If they knew this, then they would be blessed if they DID this (that is, washed one another's feet).
Furthermore, we read the great commission which says:
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Jesus commanded the disciples to wash one another's feet, to do to each other what He had done to them, and then commanded the disciples to teach all converts to do likewise, to observe all things whatsoever he had commanded the original disciples.
Thus, the practice of foot washing is given not only by the example of the Lord himself, but by His express command.
To suggest that foot washing is symbolic of something and therefore is not to actually be done, is no different than saying baptism or the Lord's Supper is symbolic of something and therefore is not to be actually done.
Jesus did not 'accidentally' wash their feet. He intentionally did it, specifically to teach them to wash one another's feet as an act of service and humility to one another.
Jesus also taught them to eat the Lord's Supper as an act of remembrance. Do we do away with that too? After all, it's the thought that counts, right?
Nitehawk013
09-24-2013, 09:59 AM
So you think the actual foot washing was the important part rather than what it signified. Ok...gotcha.
I think the point was humility and to serve your brethren, to be humble enough to serve even in the jobs that are somewhat distasteful. You thinkit was literally about feet.
Real Realism
09-24-2013, 10:08 AM
Are we ignoring the cultural context of this, as well? In an era where they didn't all own at least three pairs of sturdily constructed shoes, and when traveling with shoes bound by leather meant your feet got dusty and dirty, and when it was common for households to have servants, and it was the servant's responsibility to wash the feet of one's guests...
While I have no issue with it as a symbolic gesture, in our society, as an act of graciousness and servitude, it's certainly lost its original intent, dontchathink?
Simple question: do you still believe and practice actual, literal footwashing?
I wash my feet every day when I take my shower.
n david
09-24-2013, 10:25 AM
I think the point was humility and to serve your brethren, to be humble enough to serve even in the jobs that are somewhat distasteful. You think it was literally about feet.
Then why didn't Jesus just say that. Why didn't He give a different example and tell the disciples to follow that example. Why didn't He just take the trays and serve the dinner instead of the servants? To an extent, yes, it is about feet.
Are we ignoring the cultural context of this, as well? In an era where they didn't all own at least three pairs of sturdily constructed shoes, and when traveling with shoes bound by leather meant your feet got dusty and dirty, and when it was common for households to have servants, and it was the servant's responsibility to wash the feet of one's guests...
While I have no issue with it as a symbolic gesture, in our society, as an act of graciousness and servitude, it's certainly lost its original intent, dontchathink?
Read John 13. Jesus washed the disciples' feet "after supper had ended." The point wasn't that they needed their feet washed because of wearing sandals while walking on dirt roads. They didn't. The disciples' feet had already been washed by a servant when they entered the home.
Real Realism
09-24-2013, 10:27 AM
Then why didn't Jesus just say that. Why didn't He give a different example and tell the disciples to follow that example. Why didn't He just take the trays and serve the dinner instead of the servants? To an extent, yes, it is about feet.
Read John 13. Jesus washed the disciples' feet "after supper had ended." The point wasn't that they needed their feet washed because of wearing sandals while walking on dirt roads. They didn't. The disciples' feet had already been washed by a servant when they entered the home.
Valid point in that it was most certainly a symbolic act, not a practical one.
But it's still a gesture that meant something very specific in that culture, and takes a history lesson to mean something in today's.
Esaias
09-24-2013, 11:39 AM
So you think the actual foot washing was the important part rather than what it signified. Ok...gotcha.
I think the point was humility and to serve your brethren, to be humble enough to serve even in the jobs that are somewhat distasteful. You thinkit was literally about feet.
Apparently you did not read my post.
Let me refresh it for you:
To suggest that foot washing is symbolic of something and therefore is not to actually be done, is no different than saying baptism or the Lord's Supper is symbolic of something and therefore is not to be actually done.
Jesus did not 'accidentally' wash their feet. He intentionally did it, specifically to teach them to wash one another's feet as an act of service and humility to one another.
Jesus also taught them to eat the Lord's Supper as an act of remembrance. Do we do away with that too? After all, it's the thought that counts, right?
Now, onto the other objection, which is much more thoughtful and sincere, namely that the meaning of the act of footwashing in the ANE was understood by the people of the day without needing 'a history lesson', and therefore was to be observed in that day, but today, the meaning of the act of footwashing is not apparent without teaching concerning it's purpose and application and symbolism and meaning etc.
Several remarks:
1. The significance of the Lord's Supper would have been readily apparent to any Jew, but to the average Gentile it would not have been. The 'cup of blessing' had (and has) a specific significance in Judaism. However, the Lord's Supper is still to be observed, and is often accompanied by teaching to explain it's meaning and significance. Yet, because of these things, we do not do away with the Lord's Supper.
2. The meaning of baptism was readily apparent to the Jews of John's and Jesus' day, yet no Gentile would have understood it except as some peculiar Jewish 'cleansing ritual'. Thus, it would have to be explained to Gentiles. Furthermore, the significance of baptism as a symbol of burial, and of baptism INTO Christ, is not readily seen by all from the mere outward act of baptism, but must be explained. Hence, as several have posted on the 'baptism' poll, the meaning of baptism is often not fully understood by those who are being baptised until later, AFTER MUCH TEACHING. Yet we do not do away with the act of baptism because of the need for teaching concerning it's significance.
3. Jesus had to teach the disciples about what he was doing when he washed their feet. He asked them, 'Know ye what I have done?' From Peter's response to the Lord's initial declared intent to wash his feet, it is obvious that even the disciples did not understand the significance of what their Lord was doing. Yet he did it anyway. And further commanded them to do likewise. And further commanded them to teach all converts to do likewise.
4. The Great Commission is for the disciples to 'disciple the nations', to make disciples, to instruct them. Thus, teaching is assumed and implied and part of the purpose of ministry. To suggest foot washing requires teaching and therefore may be dispensed with it is to deny the fundamental core mission statement of the church, which is to TEACH THE NATIONS.
5. The Great Commission includes the command to teach all converts to observe all things whatsoever Jesus commanded his disciples. He commanded his disciples to wash one another's feet. Therefore, the Great Commission includes the command for the disciples to teach converts about foot washing, it's significance, and to observe to DO IT.
So we see that the objection that foot washing, to have meaning to people today, requires teaching and therefore may be dispensed with, is absurd, illogical, irrational, unreasonable, and unscriptural.
Many things require teaching. Jesus did not establish doctrine and practices for the church simply because they were 'culturally significant in that day only'. There are two cultures - the world's, and the church's. The church has it's own culture, by Divine appointment, dependent upon the will and command of God and the example of Christ and his apostles, recorded in the New Testament.
Humanism, with its relativistic view of things, is always looking to 'modify' the plain commands of the Bible, claiming God was not smart enough to know that 'times change'. Modernistic humanism attempts to 'make God current', as though there is a need for a Christianity v. 2.0 or something.
The church is an ancient institution. Her 'customs' and 'ordinances' are ancient as well. Modern man's desire to abandon a connection with the past is part of the reason we don't see the power of the ancient church manifesting today like we should.
I conclude with a thought:
Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein. (Jeremiah 6:16)
Aquila
09-24-2013, 01:08 PM
I believe that Jesus was simply demonstrating a servant's disposition; servant leadership. Today... it would be much better to rake the yard for an elderly widow, clean up trash around one's neighborhood, gather the guys and do some structural work on a neighbor's house, give a struggling single mom an oil change, or volunteer to clean the church... or work at a local charity.
I think making foot washing a ritual is defeating the purpose of Christ's example.
Esaias
09-24-2013, 01:20 PM
I believe that Jesus was simply demonstrating a servant's disposition; servant leadership. Today... it would be much better to rake the yard for an elderly widow, clean up trash around one's neighborhood, gather the guys and do some structural work on a neighbor's house, give a struggling single mom an oil change, or volunteer to clean the church... or work at a local charity.
I think making foot washing a ritual is defeating the purpose of Christ's example.
Did Jesus say 'rake the yard, take out some poor widow's trash, volunteer to help out somewhere?'
We should certainly do those things.
HOWEVER, did not Jesus say 'I did this as an example that you should do the same thing?' Did he not say 'that ye should also wash one another's feet'?
Did he or did he not command them to actually wash one another's feet?
Did he or did he not command them to disciple others, teaching them to observe the things he commanded the original disciples?
Esaias
09-24-2013, 01:21 PM
I don't understand.
Why the reluctance to just do what he said to do?
Don't want to mess with someone's feet?
Feet stank back then too, just like (or worse than) they do today...
Aquila
09-24-2013, 01:21 PM
Did Jesus say 'rake the yard, take out some poor widow's trash, volunteer to help out somewhere?'
We should certainly do those things.
HOWEVER, did not Jesus say 'I did this as an example that you should do the same thing?' Did he not say 'that ye should also wash one another's feet'?
Did he or did he not command them to actually wash one another's feet?
Did he or did he not command them to disciple others, teaching them to observe the things he commanded the original disciples?
Ritualist.
Esaias
09-24-2013, 01:25 PM
Ritualist.
Ah, name calling. Nice. I knew there was a reason I had previously decided to put you on ignore.
(click)
Aquila
09-24-2013, 01:26 PM
I don't understand.
Why the reluctance to just do what he said to do?
Don't want to mess with someone's feet?
Feet stank back then too, just like (or worse than) they do today...
Here's the entire passage...
John 13:12-17 (ESV)
12 When he had washed their feet and put on his outer garments and resumed his place, he said to them, “Do you understand what I have done to you? 13 You call me Teacher and Lord, and you are right, for so I am. 14 If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. 15 For I have given you an example, that you also should do just as I have done to you. 16 Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. 17 If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.
This was an example of the manner in which they should serve one another. Christ didn't institute a RITUAL.
I don't understand.
Why the reluctance to just do what he said to do?
Don't want to mess with someone's feet?
Feet stank back then too, just like (or worse than) they do today...
I am sure with no deoderant their BO was so bad the smell of their feet was the least of their worries.
My son told me that when he was a Marine in Iraq they would not take baths for a couple of weeks at a time and that when they did the first few days were miserable because after a days of smelling funky their nose and mind adjusted to it and all of the other horrible smells around them. When they were clean and smelled good their nose adjusted to that and then everything that smelled bad around them was really horrible. I am sure in the Bible days their noses were adjusted to all of the bad BO and it seemed normal.
Aquila
09-24-2013, 01:28 PM
Ah, name calling. Nice. I knew there was a reason I had previously decided to put you on ignore.
(click)
It's not name calling. It's an observation. I believe that you're ritualizing an example. Jesus also spoke of plucking out one's eye if it caused them to sin. Examples, metaphors, and hyperboles abound in scripture. We mustn't forget to think categorically. Christ was demonstrating servant leadership through washing the disciples feet. And as he was willing to wash their feet... so too should they be willing to wash one another's feet, because none of them is greater than their master. The implication is that... if they are willing to serve one another, as Christ was willing to serve them, they will do well. A mere ritual doesn't capture the essence of Christ's entire point.
Aquila
09-24-2013, 01:34 PM
I am sure with no deoderant their BO was so bad the smell of their feet was the least of their worries.
My son told me that when he was a Marine in Iraq they would not take baths for a couple of weeks at a time and that when they did the first few days were miserable because after a days of smelling funky their nose and mind adjusted to it and all of the other horrible smells around them. When they were clean and smelled good their nose adjusted to that and then everything that smelled bad around them was really horrible. I am sure in the Bible days their noses were adjusted to all of the bad BO and it seemed normal.
Good point. Besides being dusty... having worn sandals, the feet really wouldn't have been all that bad. I know my feet are far sweatier after wearing shoes than sandals.
RandyWayne
09-24-2013, 01:45 PM
It's not name calling. It's an observation. I believe that you're ritualizing an example. Jesus also spoke of plucking out one's eye if it caused them to sin. Examples, metaphors, and hyperboles abound in scripture. We mustn't forget to think categorically. Christ was demonstrating servant leadership through washing the disciples feet. And as he was willing to wash their feet... so too should they be willing to wash one another's feet, because none of them is greater than their master. The implication is that... if they are willing to serve one another, as Christ was willing to serve them, they will do well. A mere ritual doesn't capture the essence of Christ's entire point.
It must be buried deep in the nature of humans to ritualize things. This need is most likely there for a reason, however it also allows for people to far too easily put the ritual ahead of what it was meant to symbolize in the first place.
There is a very funny scene from The Life of Brian (Monty Python) where Brian is being chased by a large crowd who believes he is the messiah. At one point Brian loses a sandal which causes the crowd to stop and get into an argument where half say they ALL need to remove one of their sandals in order to do his will. Of course the other half argued that they needed to all carry a gourd.
http://staticmass.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/brian_3.jpg
Real Realism
09-24-2013, 02:20 PM
I wonder if communion would have been ritualized if there hadn't been examples written about the church participating in that sacrament? That does appear to be one of the specific distinguishing features here. Jesus said to drink the cup and eat the bread in remembrance of him. And we actually have Scriptural example of the church doing so. Not so in the case of foot washing.
I've practiced it. If I attend a church that chooses to institute it, I have no objections. It just seems like a stretch to mandate it since it was clearly symbolic of a much bigger principle with more appropriate applications for today AND we don't have Scripture telling us the early church did so.
Esaias
09-24-2013, 02:48 PM
I wonder if communion would have been ritualized if there hadn't been examples written about the church participating in that sacrament? That does appear to be one of the specific distinguishing features here. Jesus said to drink the cup and eat the bread in remembrance of him. And we actually have Scriptural example of the church doing so. Not so in the case of foot washing.
I've practiced it. If I attend a church that chooses to institute it, I have no objections. It just seems like a stretch to mandate it since it was clearly symbolic of a much bigger principle with more appropriate applications for today AND we don't have Scripture telling us the early church did so.
Did Jesus command that the disciples wash one another's feet?
Did he command them to teach converts to observe 'whatsoever I have commanded you'?
Do you need a NT example of the church obeying a direct command of Jesus in order for you to consider it applicable to you, us, today?
Where is the 'example' of the elders anointing the sick with oil and praying for their healing? James said to do it, but we have no examples in the NT of it being done, do we?
What about the so called 'Lord's prayer'? Jesus said to pray that way, yet we have no examples of it being done in the rest of the NT.
What about the Lord's command regarding praying in secret, or fasting in secret... do we have NT examples of the church actually doing it that way?
Do we even need examples, when we have a clear command of the Lord?
Real Realism
09-24-2013, 02:50 PM
What about the so called 'Lord's prayer'? Jesus said to pray that way, yet we have no examples of it being done in the rest of the NT.
This is actually a wonderful example, that I hope you'll expound upon.
Do you believe we should actually repeat the Lord's Prayer, word-for-word?
Esaias
09-24-2013, 03:02 PM
This is actually a wonderful example, that I hope you'll expound upon.
Do you believe we should actually repeat the Lord's Prayer, word-for-word?
Stick to the topic. :icecream
Do you believe when Jesus said 'pray thus' He didn't mean it?
Real Realism
09-24-2013, 03:15 PM
Hey, dude, you're the one who brought up all the other examples. :heeheehee
If you do believe we should pray the Lord's Prayer word-for-word, I applaud you for your consistency.
I, however, am one who thinks that it is, again, an example of something you should take in the spirit of its intention and applied to your life. Like footwashing.
And, like footwashing, I see nothing wrong with repeating the Lord's Prayer. I just don't think either are a mandate to replicate exactly as was done in their sole mention in the Bible (I know the Lord's prayer is recorded twice, but it's still likely only one instance that occurred and was recorded in two separate gospels).
Esaias
09-24-2013, 04:14 PM
I, however, am one who thinks that it is, again, an example of something you should take in the spirit of its intention and applied to your life. Like footwashing.
How does that translate into not doing any footwashing? Like saying 'the Lord's prayer is an example of something to take in the spirit of its intention and so we don't need to actually pray.'
:boxing
Esaias
09-24-2013, 04:15 PM
And besides, all you non foot-washing stinky-feeters are outnumbered.
:happydance:happydance:happydance
Real Realism
09-24-2013, 04:24 PM
The Lord's Prayer: What principle was being established? Prayer and direct communication with God. What example was given? The specific words Jesus used and the order in which he used them.
Foot washing: What principle was being established? Servitude, especially when seemingly in a position of leadership. What example was given? Mimicking the humbling act of a servant in that day by washing the guests feet.
Real Realism
09-24-2013, 04:27 PM
I'm sure of the people who took the pole, most who practice foot washing see it as symbolic, but not necessarily a command. I voted "yes", because I have practiced it, and if it's brought up again, I would. But I see no foundation for a mandate.
Aquila
09-25-2013, 06:46 AM
It must be buried deep in the nature of humans to ritualize things. This need is most likely there for a reason, however it also allows for people to far too easily put the ritual ahead of what it was meant to symbolize in the first place.
There is a very funny scene from The Life of Brian (Monty Python) where Brian is being chased by a large crowd who believes he is the messiah. At one point Brian loses a sandal which causes the crowd to stop and get into an argument where half say they ALL need to remove one of their sandals in order to do his will. Of course the other half argued that they needed to all carry a gourd.
http://staticmass.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/brian_3.jpg
:thumbsup
I love that movie bro. LOL
Always look on the bright side of life... ;)
Aquila
09-25-2013, 06:48 AM
I wonder if communion would have been ritualized if there hadn't been examples written about the church participating in that sacrament? That does appear to be one of the specific distinguishing features here. Jesus said to drink the cup and eat the bread in remembrance of him. And we actually have Scriptural example of the church doing so. Not so in the case of foot washing.
I've practiced it. If I attend a church that chooses to institute it, I have no objections. It just seems like a stretch to mandate it since it was clearly symbolic of a much bigger principle with more appropriate applications for today AND we don't have Scripture telling us the early church did so.
:thumbsup
It's also important to remember... "communion" is more biblically described as being the Lord's Supper. And it was closer to resembling a Jewish Seder than the communion service must of us recognize today.
http://www.jewishjournal.com/images/articles/Obama_Seder.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JrWWb1FsSGM/TYz7aDBVH_I/AAAAAAAAAqs/3QnP1PzBUi8/s320/ancient%2Bseder.jpeg
Real Realism
09-25-2013, 08:14 AM
I sat under a pastor who preferred to make "communion" part of a communal meal. I really enjoyed practicing it that way. Felt much more meaningful than the thimble full of juice and dry cracker.
houston
09-25-2013, 10:27 AM
:thumbsup It's also important to remember... "communion" is more biblically described as being the Lord's Supper. And it was closer to resembling a Jewish Seder than the communion service must of us recognize today. Looks cool for maybe once a year. Doing that every meeting... No thanks.
TGBTG
09-25-2013, 11:12 AM
Consider this scripture:
1 Tim 5
9 Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years of age, having been the wife of one husband,
10 and having a reputation for good works: if she has brought up children, has shown hospitality, has washed the feet of the saints, has cared for the afflicted, and has devoted herself to every good work.
Why would Paul list "washing the saint's feet" as a quality of a widow the church should take care of if feet washing was already an ordinance for the church?
Moreover, as far as Matt 28:20 "...them to observe all that I have commanded you..." Baptism and communion are clearly outlined as ordinances in the epistles. Which apostle taught feet washing?
Esaias
09-25-2013, 11:27 AM
Consider this scripture:
1 Tim 5
9 Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years of age, having been the wife of one husband,
10 and having a reputation for good works: if she has brought up children, has shown hospitality, has washed the feet of the saints, has cared for the afflicted, and has devoted herself to every good work.
Why would Paul list "washing the saint's feet" as a quality of a widow the church should take care of if feet washing was already an ordinance for the church?
Why wouldn't he?
Moreover, as far as Matt 28:20 "...them to observe all that I have commanded you..." Baptism and communion are clearly outlined as ordinances in the epistles. Which apostle taught feet washing?
John, when he made sure by the inspiration of God that Jesus' command to wash one another's feet was recorded for all time.
TGBTG
09-25-2013, 12:41 PM
Consider this scripture:
1 Tim 5
9 Let a widow be enrolled if she is not less than sixty years of age, having been the wife of one husband,
10 and having a reputation for good works: if she has brought up children, has shown hospitality, has washed the feet of the saints, has cared for the afflicted, and has devoted herself to every good work.
Why would Paul list "washing the saint's feet" as a quality of a widow the church should take care of if feet washing was already an ordinance for the church?
Why wouldn't he?
Because if foot washing was an ordinance for the church, then it would have been expected for all to partake in it. Thus, it cannot be used as a criterion for choosing the widows to be taken care of since ALL would have already been participating in it.
That would be like telling a soccer coach to select only right legged players if it has already been stated that to join the team, one must be a right legged player.
Moreover, as far as Matt 28:20 "...them to observe all that I have commanded you..." Baptism and communion are clearly outlined as ordinances in the epistles. Which apostle taught feet washing?
John, when he made sure by the inspiration of God that Jesus' command to wash one another's feet was recorded for all time.
John was narrating an event, not giving doctrine.
An example of an ordinance
1 Cor 11 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
1 Cor 15 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
Water Baptism:
We see the command (Matt 28), and we see the practice in the church (Acts 2, 8, 1 Cor 1, Gal 3, etc)
Passover (or Lord's supper, whatever you wanna call it)
We see the command (Matt 26), and we see the practice in the church (1 Cor 11)
Feet washing
John 13
14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
Where is the practice in the church?
If however, you stay with the intent of the "ordinance,"
1 Peter 5
1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
My thoughts anyway, peace!
Esaias
09-25-2013, 01:05 PM
Because if foot washing was an ordinance for the church, then it would have been expected for all to partake in it. Thus, it cannot be used as a criterion for choosing the widows to be taken care of since ALL would have already been participating in it.
So we should not expect everyone in the church of God to 'have a reputation for good works', or to 'show hospitality', or be 'devoted to every good work' then, since such things are the 'qualifications for a widow' and thus woul dnot have been expected of ALL to participate in?
John was narrating an event, not giving doctrine.
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. John 20:31
The purpose of John's gospel was not a mere 'narration of events'. He recorded what Jesus did and said, and what happened to him, so others might learn the story and message of Jesus. That is DOCTRINE, 'teaching'. If what you suggest is true, then there can be no doctrine derived from any of the four gospels or from the book of Acts, or from the book Revelation, nor from any historical record in any part of the Bible whatsoever.
But in regards to footwashing, we do not just have a narration of events 'from which we deduce' a doctrine, practice, or 'ordinance'. Instead, we have the account of Jesus not only doing something, but COMMANDING THAT IT BE DONE BY HIS DISCIPLES.
So John narrated an event of how Jesus GAVE both DOCTRINE AND COMMANDMENT to His church.
An example of an ordinance
1 Cor 11 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
1 Cor 15 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
So we have the 'narrated event' of the Last Supper IN WHICH JESUS SAID DO THIS. Just as we have the 'narrated event' of the Last Supper in which Jesus WASH ONE ANOTHER'S FEET AS I HAVE DONE TO YOU.
If the first is an 'ordinance', based on your criteria the second is likewise.
Water Baptism:
We see the command (Matt 28), and we see the practice in the church (Acts 2, 8, 1 Cor 1, Gal 3, etc)
We see the narrated historical event of Jesus COMMANDING things concerning the making of disciples (including the fact they were teach others to observe all things whatsoever He commanded them).
Passover (or Lord's supper, whatever you wanna call it)
We see the command (Matt 26), and we see the practice in the church (1 Cor 11)
Feet washing
John 13
14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
Where is the practice in the church?
So then, a command from Jesus is invalid as a command UNLESS it is repeated by an apostle or seen being practiced in the church in some place other than the same book where the command was given?
First of all, who established this rule? Upon what authority?
Second of all, Paul only mentioned the Lord's Supper in order to correct an abuse of it. Suppose the Corinthians had been in the will of God. Then we would have no mention of the Lord's Supper whatsoever except in those 'narrations of events' you seem to disparage.
Third, the fact the widows under discussion had washed the saints' feet, as opposed to strangers, is yet additional evidence it was an 'ordinance of the church' as opposed to an ordinary act of mere hospitality or duty common to social custom of the day.
In any event, foot washing is commanded by Jesus, to His disciples, to do to one another. Thus, it is a distinctly Christian practice, commanded by Christ, instituted at the Last Supper.
If however, you stay with the intent of the "ordinance,"
The intent of the command is stated by the Lord - 'wash one another's feet'. He did it, as an EXAMPLE.
Just as He submitted to baptism, AS AN EXAMPLE. An example for what? For us to be baptised. Just so with foot washing.
Real Realism
09-25-2013, 02:53 PM
http://i.imgflip.com/3uds5.jpg (http://imgflip.com/i/3uds5)
:hanky
Esaias
09-25-2013, 03:41 PM
http://i.imgflip.com/3uds5.jpg (http://imgflip.com/i/3uds5)
:hanky
That is definitely not what Jesus had in mind. I mean, look, she's got earrings and short hair fer cryin out loud!!!
:throwrock
Real Realism
09-26-2013, 07:46 AM
Whoops! :heeheehee
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