Pastors need to get a life.

[Real Realism]

Now that I have your attention with my inflammatory title...

Do "full-time pastors" sometimes forget that the rest of us have a life outside of church? Here are a couple things I've heard said over the years that caused me to think..."Say what?!"

One pastor said to his congregation, in regard to getting along with the body of Christ, "If you think about it, except for your family, you likely spend most of your time with people in the church." - Say what?! I don't know about you, preacher, but I spend about 50 hours per week interacting with dozens of co-workers. If I got to every single service or event throughout the week, I spend maybe 10 hours per week with church members, and half of that time is in my pew singing and listening to a sermon.

I posted a few weeks back about the time a special service was called three days in advance. Unfortunately, my family had already made plans (months ago) for the evening of that service. It was said over the pulpit - "If you don't change your schedule to be here, you must not love children." Say what?! Excuse me, but some of us have family and obligations outside of these four walls. Get a clue, and stop undermining my parenting with your guilt trips.

Another time I heard, "This sounds arrogant, but if anyone has a right to skip church - given how much I'm involved with day-to-day here - it's me." Say what?! Excuse me, but when you decided to take a salary from the church, you lost all "rights" to say you can skip when you're feeling tired. That'd be like me telling my client that "if anyone has a right to miss a meeting, it's me, because I work here all the time and sometimes I'm just too busy." Um, no. Sure, give yourself a set amount of vacation every year, but you absolutely do not get to feel "superior" for "never missing a service". It's. Your. Job.



I hate feeling so hyper-critical all the time. If I got up and spoke on a platform 5+ hours a week, I'm sure there are things I would say that could be misconstrued and picked apart. But, honestly, if you take a second to put on a little empathy and put yourself in the shoes of your congregation - rather than trying to guilt them into "being good saints" - I don't think these comments would come out of your mouth.

[Real Realism]

Follow-up thought: Am I being overly critical? Would this type of disconnect with "the outside world" bother anyone else?

I've noticed that the preachers who seem most likely to harp on church involvement at the expense of work and family seem to be those who never held a career outside of the ministry...

[n david]

Good grief.

[Real Realism]

Good grief.

I take it you think that it's inconsequential for pastors to be out-of-touch with the lives and life-demands of their congregation? And I'm just being a whiner w/ these concerns? :violin

[Aquila]

I've seen pastors who were very in touch with the lives of their congregants. I also know of pastors who weren't. If a pastor isn't in touch with reality as it exists outside of church... ditch him. Your spiritual growth will be stifled.

[Nitehawk013]

I think it can go both ways. As much a sI can indeed be critical of the idols we have made out of Pastors, putting htem on pedestals and allowing them FAR too much power over our lives, I also understand their point on this.

I think we all likely do it to an extent. We all in some way probably get so consumed by our own way of life and what we call "normal" that we generally think everyone else lives the same way. So when we find out someone doesn't....we get critical and think "how could they live that way"? Much like people with multiple kids cannot really understadn the life of folks who decide to not have kids. I imagine some Pastors are the same way. They spend so much time at the church, living their lives revolving around that church, serving the peopel of that church, praying and studying, etc that they I bet have a hard time understanding how anyone else would not make the church as big a priority as they do. Some of them make their families play second fiddle to the church, so they likley can't understand why some congregants don't do the same.

Of course I also think there are probably some who realy are just jerks about it and think everyone should sacrifice thier lives in order to make sure that building and that Pastor and his ego are the most important things in their lives.

[n david]

I take it you think that it's inconsequential for pastors to be out-of-touch with the lives and life-demands of their congregation? And I'm just being a whiner w/ these concerns? :violin
I think it's easy for someone who isn't in that position to pick it apart. Of course, the several congregations I've been part of have had Pastors who were either self-employed, retired from secular employment or currently working a full-time secular job. Every Pastor I've worked with has been employed, either before becoming a Pastor or while being a Pastor.

One pastor said to his congregation, in regard to getting along with the body of Christ, "If you think about it, except for your family, you likely spend most of your time with people in the church." - Say what?! I don't know about you, preacher, but I spend about 50 hours per week interacting with dozens of co-workers. If I got to every single service or event throughout the week, I spend maybe 10 hours per week with church members, and half of that time is in my pew singing and listening to a sermon.
So the Pastor misspoke. :reaction What was the context? As quoted, it's an innocent mistake. Get over it. Stop nitpicking the small stuff.

Another time I heard, "This sounds arrogant, but if anyone has a right to skip church - given how much I'm involved with day-to-day here - it's me." Say what?! Excuse me, but when you decided to take a salary from the church, you lost all "rights" to say you can skip when you're feeling tired. That'd be like me telling my client that "if anyone has a right to miss a meeting, it's me, because I work here all the time and sometimes I'm just too busy." Um, no. Sure, give yourself a set amount of vacation every year, but you absolutely do not get to feel "superior" for "never missing a service". It's. Your. Job.
You do realize Pastors need to take vacation days, too. I know you mentioned it towards the end, but I'm not sure you really believe it. I guarantee you there's been more than one time that you've called out of work because you're tired or not feeling up to work. Everyone does. And by the way, most Pastors I've worked with not only spend their time studying, praying, counseling, going on visitation, preaching and preparing messages; but they're also the church's electrician, plumber, carpenter, janitor, and all around handyman.

It's not the Pastor who needs to get a life, it's you. Seriously.

No wonder so many Pastors resign every year. It's a thankless ministry. Too many people like you nitpicking over every little thing.

[CC1]

Back in 1990 (I think) A.D. Spears taught a day session at Because of the Times conference in Alexandria that addressed a lot of this.

A.D. had gone through a tough time (perhaps a nervous breakdown or something close to it) and working through that came out with a whole new perspective of what people may be going through.

He talked about how he had been so hard on saints on a mid week service if they weren't worshipping as energetically as he though they should, never taking into consideration that they had jobs that they had just come from and were tired and possibly had been dealing with heatherns all day.

He also talked about how medical conditions affect a persons energy level, demeanor, etc and how he had never taken that into consideration before.

I thought it was probably the most useful thing I had ever heard spoken at BOTT. I told my wife at the time that the video of that teaching should be mandatory for any man being licensed in the UPC.

[Real Realism]

I think it's easy for someone who isn't in that position to pick it apart. Of course, the several congregations I've been part of have had Pastors who were either self-employed, retired from secular employment or currently working a full-time secular job. Every Pastor I've worked with has been employed, either before becoming a Pastor or while being a Pastor.

Totally agree, which is why I'm attempting to be self-reflective. BTW, I come from a PK background, so I understand the demands on a pastor's time. And I have traveled much due to occupation, and have known many pastors who have had secular jobs (while pastoring and before), and that's why I emphasize it seems those most likely to make these statements are the ones I know for a fact have never held a long-term, stable job outside of the ministry.


So the Pastor misspoke. :reaction What was the context? As quoted, it's an innocent mistake. Get over it. Stop nitpicking the small stuff.

That's where I'm taking issue...it seems like a pattern of guilt-tripping the congregation into putting off family and obligations outside of the church to participate in church constructed events and services. If it was a one-off statement, sure, but when it's a pattern of attitude...hmm....


You do realize Pastors need to take vacation days, too. I know you mentioned it towards the end, but I'm not sure you really believe it. I guarantee you there's been more than one time that you've called out of work because you're tired or not feeling up to work. Everyone does. And by the way, most Pastors I've worked with not only spend their time studying, praying, on visitation, preaching and preparing; but they're also the church's electrician, plumber, carpenter, janitor, and all around handyman.

Nope, I totally embrace the fact that pastors SHOULD give themselves a set number of vacation days and force themselves to take them. I also think a pastor should give himself at least one day off a week where he does not throw himself into church-work and focuses on his family and other obligations outside of the church. This I wholeheartedly agree with.

I don't agree with the fact of him using himself as an example of why it's so wrong for anyone - those who have family, jobs, and other obligations outside of the church - to miss service. Because "he" doesn't miss a service ("even though he has every right to, given all of his work he puts in"), how dare "you" miss a service. It's the attitude with which it was conveyed, and it shocked me...from someone who's drawing his full-time salary from the church, and there's enough money in tithes and offerings coming in to pay for electrical work, building repairs, etc. We're not talking a struggling home missions work here.



It's not the Pastor who needs to get a life, it's you. Seriously.

No wonder so many Pastors resign every year. It's a thankless ministry. Too many people like you nitpicking over every little thing.

Maybe so. But I also don't appreciate being made to feel like a horrible excuse for a Christian when I have other things going on in my life outside of the 4 services per week that I could/should go to. It trivializes the Christian walk and is not edifying. I've had pastors that I appreciate hugely, but those who convey this attitude...hardly feel "pastoral" in the sense of encouraging, uplifting and guiding the saints...instead they feel more "dictatorial". Hmm....

[endtimer]

RR, quit whining and get a life or become a pastor since you know how to be one. Maybe you could host seminars or write some material on the subject and be a blessing to all those poor clueless pastors you speak of. Seems like the only ones who don't know how to pastor are the pastors. As n david said, "good grief".

[Real Realism]

Your spiritual growth will be stifled.

I'm feeling this more and more. As I said above, it doesn't come across as edifying and encouraging. It comes as aggressive and critical.

I think I'm the type of person who tends to respond with criticism by being critical myself, though.

[Real Realism]

They spend so much time at the church, living their lives revolving around that church, serving the peopel of that church, praying and studying, etc that they I bet have a hard time understanding how anyone else would not make the church as big a priority as they do. Some of them make their families play second fiddle to the church, so they likley can't understand why some congregants don't do the same.

Of course I also think there are probably some who realy are just jerks about it and think everyone should sacrifice thier lives in order to make sure that building and that Pastor and his ego are the most important things in their lives.

I think the truth in this case lies somewhere in between. I do not doubt that this pastor wants "what's best" for his congregation. (It's not like I'm imagining him up in his office, rubbing his hands together and saying, "How can I make them squirm this week....") But I also feel like - despite the best of intentions - one can get so self-absorbed and wrapped up in a cloud of judgment that you forget to be compassionate and that Christianity is more than how much we darken the church door or how our closet looks.

[n david]

It's the attitude with which it was conveyed

I also don't appreciate being made to feel like a horrible excuse for a Christian when I have other things going on in my life outside of the 4 services per week that I could/should go to.
Most of the churches I've been a part of have been under 150, only one was around 250 to 300; I haven't been in a church where the Pastor is completely full time and never worked. I know there are Pastors out there who grew up with their daddy pastoring, then went from High School to Bible School to being a 20-something year old Pastor while their daddy makes himself the Sr. Pastor....never working a day on a secular job. In that context, yes, I can see them being very out of touch.

I also grew up a PK, and based on that experience I vowed I would never become a Pastor; and it's also why I'm a little touchy when Pastors are criticized. I'm sure my father said a few things in his 50+ years of pastoring that either upset someone or made them scratch their head. Fortunately for him, and us, that was mostly before the advent of social media where it's become sadly commonplace to beat up on things they say or do.

[RandyWayne]

Most of the churches I've been a part of have been under 150, only one was around 250 to 300; I haven't been in a church where the Pastor is completely full time and never worked. I know there are Pastors out there who grew up with their daddy pastoring, then went from High School to Bible School to being a 20-something year old Pastor while their daddy makes himself the Sr. Pastor....never working a day on a secular job. In that context, yes, I can see them being very out of touch.

I also grew up a PK, and based on that experience I vowed I would never become a Pastor; and it's also why I'm a little touchy when Pastors are criticized. I'm sure my father said a few things in his 50+ years of pastoring that either upset someone or made them scratch their head. Fortunately for him, and us, that was mostly before the advent of social media where it's become sadly commonplace to beat up on things they say or do.

Our church was always between 120-150 in regular attendence and our pastor was full time at the church. Not only that but he took the "double honor" thing literally and was paid twice what the average salary was (which came to over 70 grand) at the time.

[Originalist]

RR, quit whining and get a life or become a pastor since you know how to be one. Maybe you could host seminars or write some material on the subject and be a blessing to all those poor clueless pastors you speak of. Seems like the only ones who don't know how to pastor are the pastors. As n david said, "good grief".

Your reaction to him only underscores the concern that many have.......being....the church has its share of pastor worshippers who will defend them against any reasonable criticism. Good grief.

[Originalist]

This stone throwing by pastors at those who "dare to miss a service" is tiresome. They seem to gauge everyone's spirituality by how often they show up to the building to stare at the back of someone's head, or how much off night busyness they are involved in at the church. some of these "worker bees" (not ALL) are some of the most carnal, backslid in heart people around. Yet, the pastors cannot discern the error in these people's lives because he's so taken in by their willingness to work at the church all the time. But the guy who is truly seperated unto God in his heart, but for one reason or another cannot be as involved as he'd like, gets beat up on.
My church runs between 150-200.

We have two different couples in our church who are literally at the church everyday. They have no kids nor do they want any. They literally have no social life either. How does one "compete" with that, and why should he even feel pressured to compete? Why is outreach outside the church walls seldom stressed? One of our youth observed to his mom that there is something almost "robotic" or "machine like" about these two couples.


Then we have another couple at our church who has 4 kids ages 16, 14, 12. and 1. The one year old was an accident. The brother is our Christian Education director. His wife is our music director. Plus both are up to their eye balls in other church activities. Both work MANY hours (50 plus) at their good paying, full time jobs. But STILL, they are at the church almost every evening doing something. Their kids are in the fellowship hall doing homework at a table littered with the Chinese take out they have had for dinner. WHEN do these people have real family time without escaping out of town? WHEN does this lady clean her house or actually cook a meal for her family? But without knowing it, they "ruin the curve" for everyone else because the pastor looks at them and can't understand why everyone else in the church can't be like them.

In all reality, a pastor should lovingly go to those kinds of members and FORBID them to be so overly involved. But does anyone really think that is going to happen? NOT!!

[RandyWayne]

Are there really that many "you better not miss service! Ever!" pastors out there? I know the org was full of them during the time we went but I assumed those kind had A) left the org themselves, or B) died off by now. I mean I am sure they are still out there but as a % must be very minor now.

[Originalist]

Are there really that many "you better not miss service! Ever!" pastors out there? I know the org was full of them during the time we went but I assumed those kind had A) left the org themselves, or B) died off by now. I mean I am sure they are still out there but as a % must be very minor now.

They have changed tactics. They are not as vocal. But you still pick up on the vibes.

[endtimer]

Your reaction to him only underscores the concern that many have.......being....the church has its share of pastor worshippers who will defend them against any reasonable criticism. Good grief.

:heeheehee Nice try... but wild miss. I've dealt with my share of bad pastors as your average church goer and as a minister. Ive been lied about, picked at and out right done wrong by carnal,controlling men who carried the title but not the heart of a pastor. Yes, Ive been deeply hurt. So, pastor worshipper, not me guy. Nothing constructive comes out of these whine threads and you know it.

[n david]

This stone throwing by pastors ... is tiresome.
As is the stone throwing by lazy saints who whine about just attending services, much less getting involved and being dedicated to some sort of church ministry.

:popcorn2

[RandyWayne]

This stone throwing by pastors at those who "dare to miss a service" is tiresome. They seem to gauge everyone's spirituality by how often they show up to the building to stare at the back of someone's head, or how much off night busyness they are involved in at the church. some of these "worker bees" (not ALL) are some of the most carnal, backslid in heart people around. Yet, the pastors cannot discern the error in these people's lives because he's so taken in by their willingness to work at the church all the time. But the guy who is truly seperated unto God in his heart, but for one reason or another cannot be as involved as he'd like, gets beat up on.
My church runs between 150-200.

We have two different couples in our church who are literally at the church everyday. They have no kids nor do they want any. They literally have no social life either. How does one "compete" with that, and why should he even feel pressured to compete? Why is outreach outside the church walls seldom stressed? One of our youth observed to his mom that there is something almost "robotic" or "machine like" about these two couples. That pastor would then single them out with a congratulations to "Mr and Mrs so and so" and often praise them for "Putting God (aka, the church) first!".



Then we have another couple at our church who has 4 kids ages 16, 14, 12. and 1. The one year old was an accident. The brother is our Christian Education director. His wife is our music director. Plus both are up to their eye balls in other church activities. Both work MANY hours (50 plus) at their good paying, full time jobs. But STILL, they are at the church almost every evening doing something. Their kids are in the fellowship hall doing homework at a table littered with the Chinese take out they have had for dinner. WHEN do these people have real family time without escaping out of town? WHEN does this lady clean her house or actually cook a meal for her family? But without knowing it, they "ruin the curve" for everyone else because the pastor looks at them and can't understand why everyone else in the church can't be like them.

In all reality, a pastor should lovingly go to those kinds of members and FORBID them to be so overly involved. But does anyone really think that is going to happen? NOT!!

What is funny is the pastor of my LAST church (before moving to Arizona, and not the crazy guy who had all the rules related to procreation and sex) told newly married couples that they better NOT be seen in church Sunday morning, assuming they were married on Friday or the night before.
It was VERY common in our UPC church for a couple who was married on Saturday night to be seen Sunday morning. It was a big deal to prance on in as a married couple who were now allowed to actually <gasp> sit together.
The pastor would first congratulate the new Mr and Mrs so and so and then make some comment about how great it was that they put church, errrrr, I mean "God" first by being there.

[Originalist]

:heeheehee Nice try... but wild miss. I've dealt with my share of bad pastors as your average church goer and as a minister. Ive been lied about, picked at and out right done wrong by carnal,controlling men who carried the title but not the heart of a pastor. Yes, Ive been deeply hurt. So, pastor worshipper, not me guy. Nothing constructive comes out of these whine threads and you know it.

Maybe these "whine" threads are the only place cpeople can vent their frustrations. And by your own definition of "whiner", you fit the bill by claiming that.....

I have dealt with my share of bad pastors as your average church goer and as a minister. Ive been lied about, picked at and out right done wrong by carnal,controlling men who carried the title but not the heart of a pastor. Yes, Ive been deeply hurt.

Stop whining and submit!!

[n david]

Then we have another couple at our church who has 4 kids ages 16, 14, 12. and 1. The one year old was an accident. The brother is our Christian Education director. His wife is our music director. Plus both are up to their eye balls in other church activities. Both work MANY hours (50 plus) at their good paying, full time jobs. But STILL, they are at the church almost every evening doing something. Their kids are in the fellowship hall doing homework at a table littered with the Chinese take out they have had for dinner. WHEN do these people have real family time without escaping out of town? WHEN does this lady clean her house or actually cook a meal for her family? But without knowing it, they "ruin the curve" for everyone else because the pastor looks at them and can't understand why everyone else in the church can't be like them.

The AUDACITY! I just hate those kind of dedicated people. How dare they enjoy ministry that much!

:slaphappy

[endtimer]

What is funny is the pastor of my LAST church (before moving to Arizona, and not the crazy guy who had all the rules related to procreation and sex) told newly married couples that they better NOT be seen in church Sunday morning, assuming they were married on Friday or the night before.
It was VERY common in our UPC church for a couple who was married on Saturday night to be seen Sunday morning. It was a big deal to prance on in as a married couple who were now allowed to actually <gasp> sit together.

Classic pentecost has a major soft spot for pageantry and theatrics, no doubt.:nod

[Originalist]

What is funny is the pastor of my LAST church (before moving to Arizona, and not the crazy guy who had all the rules related to procreation and sex) told newly married couples that they better NOT be seen in church Sunday morning, assuming they were married on Friday or the night before.
It was VERY common in our UPC church for a couple who was married on Saturday night to be seen Sunday morning. It was a big deal to prance on in as a married couple who were now allowed to actually <gasp> sit together.
The pastor would first congratulate the new Mr and Mrs so and so and then make some comment about how great it was that they put church, errrrr, I mean "God" first by being there.

Trinitarian churches are riddled with their own quirky faults for sure. But it does seem that the weird scenarios like the one you describe do seem to happen in American Apostolic churches. In Hispanic churches they happen in both oneness and Trinitarian pentecostal churches.

But WHAT causes us to be so weird sometimes? It really is creepy.

[endtimer]

Maybe these "whine" threads are the only place cpeople can vent their frustrations. And by your own definition of "whiner", you fit the bill by claiming that.....



Stop whining and submit!!

Ha! you trying...so funny. One could spend time in prayer. I do speak from much experience.

[Originalist]

The AUDACITY! I just hate those kind of dedicated people. How dare they enjoy ministry that much!

:slaphappy

Is that really what you got out of my post? It's not a question of "enjoying ministry". Rather it's an issue of a lack of balance.

[navygoat1998]

What is funny is the pastor of my LAST church (before moving to Arizona, and not the crazy guy who had all the rules related to procreation and sex) told newly married couples that they better NOT be seen in church Sunday morning, assuming they were married on Friday or the night before.
It was VERY common in our UPC church for a couple who was married on Saturday night to be seen Sunday morning. It was a big deal to prance on in as a married couple who were now allowed to actually <gasp> sit together.
The pastor would first congratulate the new Mr and Mrs so and so and then make some comment about how great it was that they put church, errrrr, I mean "God" first by being there.

When my wife and I were dating we were not allowed to sit together at church or any church function in state or out of state. :banjo

We got married on a Saturday afternoon and made sure we were at the Pentecostals of Cocoa Sunday morning. Yep please pass the kool-aid back this way. :koolaid

[Originalist]

Ha! you trying...so funny. One could spend time in prayer. I do speak from much experience.


So why are subjects like these off limits? These are areas that need to be discussed and talked out. I think there is more to your reaction than just 'spirituallity'.

[n david]

Anthony Mangun preached a message this year at the Louisiana Campmeeting - "The Fashion of This World Passeth Away." It was an incredible message about priorities and living for the eternal things instead of the temporary things.

I'd recommend people watch/listen to it, but then there would probably be a thread started complaining about something he said.

[Originalist]

When my wife and I were dating we were not allowed to sit together at church or any church function in state or out of state. :banjo

We got married on a Saturday afternoon and made sure we were at the Pentecostals of Cocoa Sunday morning. Yep please pass the kool-aid back this way. :koolaid

Now that church is considered to be "liberal". Go figure.

[navygoat1998]

Trinitarian churches are riddled with their own quirky faults for sure. But it does seem that the weird scenarios like the one you describe do seem to happen in American Apostolic churches. In Hispanic churches they happen in both oneness and Trinitarian pentecostal churches.

But WHAT causes us to be so weird sometimes? It really is creepy.

My wife and I talk about this all the time. What is the common theme??? It is the Pentecostal thing.

I heard some real stupid stuff at an AG church in California that made me just shake my head in disbelief.

[endtimer]

So why are subjects like these off limits? These are areas that need to be discussed and talked out. I think there is more to your reaction than just 'spirituallity'.

We know you are in a place of frustration and decision, do you think this thread will help you? As far as more to my response, you don't know me, so you really cant speak. Don't try.

[Originalist]

Anthony Mangun preached a message this year at the Louisiana Campmeeting - "The Fashion of This World Passeth Away." It was an incredible message about priorities and living for the eternal things instead of the temporary things.

I'd recommend people watch/listen to it, but then there would probably be a thread started complaining about something he said.

Are you sure you understood him in context. Does he imply that someone needs to devote every waking spare moment to working at the church?

My question is, are apostolics really doing the works Jesus commanded us to do? Why do so few of our people actually know how to witness to someone, much less acually lead them to Christ? Are most apostolic churches trying to reach their community and show love? No. We are a monestary without walls. Allot of this church busyness is going to be wood, hay ,and stubble in the end.

[Originalist]

We know you are in a place of frustration and decision, do you think this thread will help you? As far as more to my response, you don't know me, so you really cant speak. Don't try.

Again, you do not practise what you preach. You wrongly assume that my words on this thread stem from my current situation. Wrong. I'm more seasoned that that , my friend. You don't know me, either. Maybe my situation has caused me to have to re-evaluate some of the things that go on and to honestly ask myself if God wants me to be submitted to those who teach them. I can't just swallow everything I hear come across a pulpit. I have to ask myself, "Can I teach that to people in good conscience?"

[n david]

Is that really what you got out of my post? It's not a question of "enjoying ministry". Rather it's an issue of a lack of balance.
Who are you to decide how they should live their lives? Here you complain about Pastors bullying people who aren't involved, and then you turn around and complain about a couple who is willingly devoting themselves to ministry.

This couple is one we should admire, not despise because "it ruins the curve." :tissue

I wish more people would be like the house of Stephanas in 1 Corinthians 16 and be addicted to the ministry of the saints.

[RandyWayne]

My wife and I talk about this all the time. What is the common theme??? It is the Pentecostal thing.

I heard some real stupid stuff at an AG church in California that made me just shake my head in disbelief.

Apart from some of the stuff LS preaches and of course the "You can't get to heaven without a pastor!!" diatribe from Nathan Dudley posted several times here, much of the really weird stuff has come from AG ministers.

[Originalist]

Who are you to decide how they should live their lives? Here you complain about Pastors bullying people who aren't involved, and then you turn around and complain about a couple who is willingly devoting themselves to ministry.

This couple is one we should admire, not despise because "it ruins the curve." :tissue

I wish more people would be like the house of Stephanas in 1 Corinthians 16 and be addicted to the ministry of the saints.

So, now I despise them ,huh? My concern that a pastor unrealistically assumes that everyone should be like this couple is somehow equal to pastors who bully people, eh?

I know when I've struck a nerve , and I know when someone is being intellectually dishonest. When you have to resort to straw man attacks, you've exposed yourself.

[n david]

Are you sure you understood him in context. Does he imply that someone needs to devote every waking spare moment to working at the church?
I've watched the message twice, I'm pretty sure I understand the context of what his message was.

In your example of the couple, you wrote that one was in the Christian education dept and the other was the music director -- both are vital areas in the church. Both have eternal implications.

I'm not saying you MUST absolutely spend every. single. waking. moment working at the church; but you should be involved in your local assembly and do more than just warm a seat on Sunday and every other Wednesday, while criticizing a Pastor for wanting more involvement, or other saints who do spend their time working in ministry.

[RandyWayne]

Who are you to decide how they should live their lives? Here you complain about Pastors bullying people who aren't involved, and then you turn around and complain about a couple who is willingly devoting themselves to ministry.

This couple is one we should admire, not despise because "it ruins the curve." :tissue

I wish more people would be like the house of Stephanas in 1 Corinthians 16 and be addicted to the ministry of the saints.

I think the point is that church involvement is being placed WAAAAaaayyyy over family involvement. It is the reason I made my point about our old pastor telling newly married couples NOT to show up in church Sunday morning if they were married the night before. He even joked that they shouldn't "see the light of day until at least noon the next morning". lol
But our UPC pastor (and I am sure pastors of ALL pentecostal denominations) encouraged them to "still be there!" (in church).

[endtimer]

Again, you do not practise what you preach. You wrongly assume that my words on this thread stem from my current situation. Wrong. I'm more seasoned that that , my friend. You don't know me, either. Maybe my situation has caused me to have to re-evaluate some of the things that go on and to honestly ask myself if God wants me to be submitted to those who teach them. I can't just swallow everything I hear come across a pulpit. I have to ask myself, "Can I teach that to people in good conscience?"

Please explain. BTW I don't deny these things happen. I dont disagree with moving on to a new church that one can relate to the leadership in a better way. Moving on may prove to help healing immensely. Ive had to do it. I only have a problem with so much focus on such negative things. HOw many threads do we need on this anyway? I realize this makes great forum fodder but is this a biblical way to deal with this subject. Dont let me get in the way... carry on.

[Ferd]

well, im more of the opposite opinion when it comes to staying/leaving. I do realize there are times when folk need to move along.

not going to dive into that particular pool.... my experience has been that leavers have more problems than they precieve in the cause of thier move.


(to avoid the appearance of offending those here... i dont know you, dont know your situation, and would not presume to project. )

I remember a situation where my pastor came to me to discuss something that was on his mind. He told me of a particular couple that had decided to leave our church. They had been quite helpful in many areas for some time and supported the work.

He was quite naturally upset that they were leaving. But as we began to talk about it, I told him "pastor they were leaving some place else when they got to us. Why would you expect them to stay here"?

Tis true. they didnt stay in the next place or the place after that.

[n david]

So, now I despise them ,huh?
Then we have another couple at our church who has 4 kids ages 16, 14, 12. and 1. The one year old was an accident. The brother is our Christian Education director. His wife is our music director. Plus both are up to their eye balls in other church activities. Both work MANY hours (50 plus) at their good paying, full time jobs. But STILL, they are at the church almost every evening doing something. Their kids are in the fellowship hall doing homework at a table littered with the Chinese take out they have had for dinner. WHEN do these people have real family time without escaping out of town? WHEN does this lady clean her house or actually cook a meal for her family? But without knowing it, they "ruin the curve" for everyone else because the pastor looks at them and can't understand why everyone else in the church can't be like them.

In all reality, a pastor should lovingly go to those kinds of members and FORBID them to be so overly involved. But does anyone really think that is going to happen? NOT!!
Certainly has a bitter edge to it.

My concern that a pastor unrealistically assumes that everyone should be like this couple is somehow equal to pastors who bully people, eh?Are there really that many "you better not miss service! Ever!" pastors out there? I know the org was full of them during the time we went but I assumed those kind had A) left the org themselves, or B) died off by now. I mean I am sure they are still out there but as a % must be very minor now.
They have changed tactics. They are not as vocal. But you still pick up on the vibes.
:hmmm

I know when I've struck a nerve, and I know when someone is being intellectually dishonest. When you have to resort to straw man attacks, you've exposed yourself.
I'm using your own words, not being intellectually dishonest nor am I resorting to straw man attacks.

[endtimer]

well, im more of the opposite opinion when it comes to staying/leaving. I do realize there are times when folk need to move along.

not going to dive into that particular pool.... my experience has been that leavers have more problems than they precieve in the cause of thier move.


(to avoid the appearance of offending those here... i dont know you, dont know your situation, and would not presume to project. )

I remember a situation where my pastor came to me to discuss something that was on his mind. He told me of a particular couple that had decided to leave our church. They had been quite helpful in many areas for some time and supported the work.

He was quite naturally upset that they were leaving. But as we began to talk about it, I told him "pastor they were leaving some place else when they got to us. Why would you expect them to stay here"?

Tis true. they didnt stay in the next place or the place after that.

Yep, unfortunately these moves often turn into geographical fixes to inward problems. Not always, but often.

[Originalist]

Certainly has a bitter edge to it.




:hmmm


I'm using your own words, not being intellectually dishonest nor am I resorting to straw man attacks.

The correction is actually aimed at the pastor, not them, Though i do think they are out of balance. And you are not "using" my words, you are twisting my words.

[Originalist]

Yep, unfortunately these moves often turn into geographical fixes to inward problems. Not always, but often.

This is very true. There are going to be flawed people wherever you go, and if I found a perfect church, it would cease being perfect the moment I joined it. Before I had to relocate for financial reasons, I stayed at the same church for 17 years.

But I do think that those who are being labeled "whiners" actually have very valid points in spite of those who belittle them.

[Originalist]

I've watched the message twice, I'm pretty sure I understand the context of what his message was.

In your example of the couple, you wrote that one was in the Christian education dept and the other was the music director -- both are vital areas in the church. Both have eternal implications.

I'm not saying you MUST absolutely spend every. single. waking. moment working at the church; [B]but you should be involved in your local assembly and do more than just warm a seat on Sunday and every other Wednesday, while criticizing a Pastor for wanting more involvement, or other saints who do spend their time working in ministry.

Again, straw man arguments. Nobody is saying that one should not be involved in their local assembly, or just warm a pew. Nor is anyone criticizing the pastor for wanting more church involvement or saints who do spend their time working in ministry.

[Esaias]

Then we have another couple at our church who has 4 kids ages 16, 14, 12. and 1. The one year old was an accident.

I'm sorry to butt in, but no child is an ACCIDENT.

I shudder to think what the results could be if at some time in the future that child stumbles across this thread and reads this statement and realizes who is being spoken of.

[n david]

The correction is actually aimed at the pastor, not them, Though i do think they are out of balance. And you are not "using" my words, you are twisting my words.
I'm not twisting your words! I posted the quotes as they were, I didn't change them. You wrote what you wrote. It is what it is. I know you're criticizing the Pastor with that comment, but at the same time you're criticizing them as well for "ruining the curve," albeit unknowingly.

My question remains about this couple -- who are you to say how they should live their lives, or (in a round about way) complain that their involvement in the ministry "ruins the curve." If they're willingly devoting themselves to ministry, who are you to complain about it?

Maybe if you didn't rely on living on a curve based on others' involvement, you wouldn't feel bad when someone else is more involved than you.

[Originalist]

I'm sorry to butt in, but no child is an ACCIDENT.

I shudder to think what the results could be if at some time in the future that child stumbles across this thread and reads this statement and realizes who is being spoken of.

Unplanned by the couple.

[Nitehawk013]

I'd liek to say I am shocked by the amount of support for Pastors who use any means available to drive peopel to put families, friends and life in general on the back burner in order to make church (and sitting to listen to him) the primary thing ones life must revolve around.

I'd like to be shocked...but I'm really not surprised.

We Apos and generic pentecostals do love us some good old fashioned temple worship and priest worship. We treat our stupid buildings and our Pastors liek they are Christ Himself, and sadly tend to bow much more easily to our buildings and Pastors than to the ACTUAL Christ who saved us.

[n david]

Again, straw man arguments. Nobody is saying that one should not be involved in their local assembly, or just warm a pew. Nor is anyone criticizing the pastor for wanting more church involvement or saints who do spend their time working in ministry.
The quote you used was my response to a question you asked about Mangun's message. It's not straw man, because I was referring directly to the question about the message.

Are you sure you understood him in context. Does he imply that someone needs to devote every waking spare moment to working at the church?
I'm not saying you MUST absolutely spend every. single. waking. moment working at the church; but you should be involved in your local assembly and do more than just warm a seat on Sunday and every other Wednesday, while criticizing a Pastor for wanting more involvement, or other saints who do spend their time working in ministry.
You're right, you never said one shouldn't be involved; nor did I say that you said that. It's called a conversation, some parts directly relate to what was written/asked and other parts are written simply to expand on the current dialogue.

[endtimer]

This is very true. There are going to be flawed people wherever you go, and if I found a perfect church, it would cease being perfect the moment I joined it. Before I had to relocate for financial reasons, I stayed at the same church for 17 years.

But I do think that those who are being labeled "whiners" actually have very valid points in spite of those who belittle them.

Well, I really don't question the validity of the points offered, just the way they were offered. Tabloid, tell-all style on a forum, not helpful to anyone (especially not to the author) but hey, its just my opinion. Right? At least we can agree on the geographical fix comment. :thumbsup

[Nitehawk013]

As to expecting and being upset that some people don't want to go to every service all the time...perhaps consider that maybe, just maybe, you aren't offering what they NEED at those services.

Most Pastors treat service like our dinner tabels growing up. You take what is cooked and eat it, or go hungry. The problem is that today peopel understand that when it comes to church, if you are smart you offer many different types of classes, sermons and styles so that the people can pick from the buffet to get what they need at the moment. The same old service may not do a thing for some, while for others it may be the greatest thing ever. If you don't ioffer what they need...don't get mad when they feel no desire to go to service that night.

[Aquila]

A typical institutional pastor will place HIGH PRIORITY on any service wherein an offering may be taken.

[Originalist]

I'm not twisting your words! I posted the quotes as they were, I didn't change them. You wrote what you wrote. It is what it is. I know you're criticizing the Pastor with that comment, but at the same time you're criticizing them as well for "ruining the curve," albeit unknowingly.

My question remains about this couple -- who are you to say how they should live their lives, or (in a round about way) complain that their involvement in the ministry "ruins the curve." If they're willingly devoting themselves to ministry, who are you to complain about it?

Maybe if you didn't rely on living on a curve based on others' involvement, you wouldn't feel bad when someone else is more involved than you.

I know that most reading this realize you are continuing to twist my words. but in the event that you might actually be that incapable of rightly dividing what I wrote, I will try now to explain it to you in terms you can grasp.

I am not questioning or demeaning their obvious enthusiaasm for ministry. However, something is wrong when a family is out late every night and a woman never cooks a meal for her family. A pastor SHOULD be sensative to this and probe to make sure thier motives are right and that they are not doing these things out of some sense of obligation. Even if there motives are pure, they need to be admonished to curb their involvement a bit. But most pastors simply ignore this because they frankly like this kind of involvement and do use these kinds of people as bell weathers as to how others in the church should be. Thus my statement "ruining the curve".

Maybe if you didn't rely on living on a curve based on others' involvement, you wouldn't feel bad when someone else is more involved than you.

A snide, snotty remark that shows your true colors. It's not a question of me or anyone else living on a curve based on others' involvement. Rather it is pastors who use people such as this couple as the curve to grade the rest of us on and to make us feel bad when we can't act in kind. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but my hunch is that you knew the context in which I made my comments originally, but have chosen to distort them anyway.

[n david]

I'd liek to say I am shocked by the amount of support for Pastors who use any means available to drive people to put families, friends and life in general on the back burner in order to make church (and sitting to listen to him) the primary thing ones life must revolve around.
I don't support bullies, and have acknowledged some exist in the ministry. At the same time, there is nothing wrong with a Pastor asking for people to get involved in the ministry. The fact that a Pastor would have to ask this is just sad, but it has to be. BTW, a Pastor wants people to attend services for more than just to sit and listen to him.


We Apos and generic pentecostals do love us some good old fashioned temple worship and priest worship. We treat our stupid buildings and our Pastors like they are Christ Himself, and sadly tend to bow much more easily to our buildings and Pastors than to the ACTUAL Christ who saved us.
You went waaaaayyyyyy out in left field on this one. I don't know where you came up with this; it sure wasn't from any of the posts here.

[Aquila]

Personally, this is one reason why I love house church. Elders are spiritual mentors. Our house church gathers twice a week (typically most attend one or the other). It's rather easy going. The gatherings are participatory. Sometimes they'll meet at Tim Horton's, or some other coffee shop and have open discussion. We've gathered in restaurants, and even a tavern once. Love it.

[Originalist]

Well, I really don't question the validity of the points offered, just the way they were offered. Tabloid, tell-all style on a forum, not helpful to anyone (especially not to the author) but hey, its just my opinion. Right? At least we can agree on the geographical fix comment. :thumbsup

:thumbsup

[Originalist]

I don't support bullies, and have acknowledged some exist in the ministry. At the same time, there is nothing wrong with a Pastor asking for people to get involved in the ministry. The fact that a Pastor would have to ask this is just sad, but it has to be. BTW, a Pastor wants people to attend services for more than just to sit and listen to him.



You went waaaaayyyyyy out in left field on this one. I don't know where you came up with this; it sure wasn't from any of the posts here.

His post was right on the money. It was a line drive to center field.

[Originalist]

Personally, this is one reason why I love house church. Elders are spiritual mentors. Our house church gathers twice a week (typically most attend one or the other). It's rather easy going. The gatherings are participatory. Sometimes they'll meet at Tim Horton's, or some other coffee shop and have open discussion. We've gathered in restaurants, and even a tavern once. Love it.

I'm not sure, I'll have to check the script to be sure, but I think I'm supposed to say that you are now backslid and need to return to your "authority".

[Aquila]

I'm not sure, I'll have to check the script to be sure, but I think I'm supposed to say that you are now backslid and need to return to your "authority".

Hey, to teach their own. lol

I do believe in elders. I do believe in being under their spiritual authority. However, in house churching elders are more like spiritual mentors or fathers than religiously licensed CEOs with offices and committees.

[RandyWayne]

Personally, this is one reason why I love house church. Elders are spiritual mentors. Our house church gathers twice a week (typically most attend one or the other). It's rather easy going. The gatherings are participatory. Sometimes they'll meet at Tim Horton's, or some other coffee shop and have open discussion. We've gathered in restaurants, and even a tavern once. Love it.

Nothing like a mild, hot, or wild "wing and a prayer"!

[Ferd]

This is very true. There are going to be flawed people wherever you go, and if I found a perfect church, it would cease being perfect the moment I joined it. Before I had to relocate for financial reasons, I stayed at the same church for 17 years.

But I do think that those who are being labeled "whiners" actually have very valid points in spite of those who belittle them.

most of the folk i have known who had serious issues with the pastor... were individuals who were mostly alone in their view of the situation. that to me indicates the issue is theirs and not the pastors.

Now I have seen some pretty bad situations where the pastor is seriously messed up. it is my humble opinion that for a church in that kind of situation to survive, some solid people need to stay and see the church thru.

This I speak of from personal experience. As a board member, I have been involve in the asking for a resignation, with the cover from our bishop.

my father was in a similar situation years ago in another city. in that case the church could have been held in tact had those who were first moved to dissatisfaction would have stayed, followed an established plan and worked within the framwork of the church to see things to a good end.

In the end, a lot of people were hurt, the community 20+ years later still has to deal with the fallout. Had they all just stayed together and done as the bishop suggested, the problemaitic pastor would have been gone and the church would have been strong.

In the end God will always win. The church is strong now, but a lot of great people have splintered in a multitude of directions. the offending pastor has long been gone and the man who is there now is a wonderful man of God who loves the people and is well loved....

[endtimer]

Nothing like a hot "wing and a prayer"!

:lol

[Aquila]

I remember considering something and a house church elder "advised" me not to. Yet, he smiled and said, "You're determined aren't you? Well, go ahead. I'll be right here. If this goes as I think it will... know that I'm here for you to lean on and help you get back on your feet." It was like talking to a step dad or something. Loved it.

I remember meeting a "pastor" in a local church about something and he poked his finger on his desk to make a solid thump... "I feel this in the Holy Ghost Chris, you want to listen me, this is the LORD. If you don't, it's rebellion. You need to be here." I was just wanting to clarify that I couldn't make a service because I had to work. :(

[Aquila]

Nothing like a mild, hot, or wild "wing and a prayer"!

Followed by an Amberbock. ;) lol

[n david]

I am not questioning or demeaning their obvious enthusiaasm for ministry. However, something is wrong when a family is out late every night and a woman never cooks a meal for her family. A pastor SHOULD be sensative to this and probe to make sure thier motives are right and that they are not doing these things out of some sense of obligation. Even if there motives are pure, they need to be admonished to curb their involvement a bit. But most pastors simply ignore this because they frankly like this kind of involvement and do use these kinds of people as bell weathers as to how others in the church should be. Thus my statement "ruining the curve".
I could have fun with this quote (woman cooking the meals)...but I won't.

1) It's not up to you to say how involved they should or shouldn't be, is it? And who are you to judge and say "something is wrong?" The couple are obviously adults, and are perfectly capable of knowing their limits; they don't need you to decide how much is too much involvement.

2) Question: would you be upset or complain if a Pastor "admonished" someone about their lack of involvement? I believe in another thread you were quite upset about that very thing. Yet, in this instance, you're complaining the Pastor isn't questioning why they're involved and telling them to curb their involvement.

[n david]

A snide, snotty remark that shows your true colors. It's not a question of me or anyone else living on a curve based on others' involvement. Rather it is pastors who use people such as this couple as the curve to grade the rest of us on and to make us feel bad when we can't act in kind.
You're right, that was a bit harsh and wrongly aimed at you. I apologize. I'm just a little touchy today on this subject. Perhaps time away at lunch will help soften me up some.

[Real Realism]

Most of the churches I've been a part of have been under 150, only one was around 250 to 300; I haven't been in a church where the Pastor is completely full time and never worked. I know there are Pastors out there who grew up with their daddy pastoring, then went from High School to Bible School to being a 20-something year old Pastor while their daddy makes himself the Sr. Pastor....never working a day on a secular job. In that context, yes, I can see them being very out of touch.

Bingo. This has described the situation very accurately.

I will sheepishly acknowledge the sensationalism with which I started this thread. However, there's absolutely nothing connecting any names or timeframes here. I'm simply using an example to illustrate a concern and theme.

As someone who has dedicated hours a week to youth ministry, music ministry, special events, serving food, welcoming visitors, I'm no stranger to being "plugged in" to my local assembly. However, involvement in church should never feel compulsory. True leadership should inspire behavior from others, not demand it.

As to expecting and being upset that some people don't want to go to every service all the time...perhaps consider that maybe, just maybe, you aren't offering what they NEED at those services.

Precisely.

[Originalist]

I could have fun with this quote (woman cooking the meals)...but I won't.

1) It's not up to you to say how involved they should or shouldn't be, is it? And who are you to judge and say "something is wrong?" The couple are obviously adults, and are perfectly capable of knowing their limits; they don't need you to decide how much is too much involvement.

2) Question: would you be upset or complain if a Pastor "admonished" someone about their lack of involvement? I believe in another thread you were quite upset about that very thing. Yet, in this instance, you're complaining the Pastor isn't questioning why they're involved and telling them to curb their involvement.

You are an obvious defender of the status quo and an attack dog who is trained to go after those who question it.

And yes, a pastor needs to be cautious in attacking those who he deems to be under-involved, but he should be just as cautious in allowing people to be over-involved. That is what good pastor would do and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that statement.

[Real Realism]

Originalist, your story of the family hanging out at the church with the takeout containers, doing homework...reminds me very much of certain periods of my family.

No one can say that they're "wrong"...maybe it's what's right for their family, and their children will look back on those memories fondly. Or maybe they're missing opportunities to connect on a real level with their kids and prepare them for adulthood responsibilities. But let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say, "Blessings to them for their dedication."

It's folly for someone to look at that family where both parents work full-time jobs and expect that everyone else in the congregation should be just as "dedicated". Or that those who don't put in that much time into church activities are somehow not as "sold out". It's especially harmful when we try to put a measuring stick on involvement and hint that salvation is at risk if one isn't as involved as the pastor hints you should be. I'll say again, it trivializes our Christian walk to think that God somehow has a leaderboard where he puts a mark against me should I miss an occasional service for a family function.

[Esaias]

Why doesn't that church teach that family that the ideal is for the husband to work a full time job and the wife to learn to be a 'keeper at home' and guide her household?

Oh wait, double income, double tithes...

(ducking back out of the room now)

[RandyWayne]

Why doesn't that church teach that family that the ideal is for the husband to work a full time job and the wife to learn to be a 'keeper at home' and guide her household?

Oh wait, double income, double tithes...

(ducking back out of the room now)

:slaphappy

[hometown guy]

Now that I have your attention with my inflammatory title...

Do "full-time pastors" sometimes forget that the rest of us have a life outside of church? Here are a couple things I've heard said over the years that caused me to think..."Say what?!"

One pastor said to his congregation, in regard to getting along with the body of Christ, "If you think about it, except for your family, you likely spend most of your time with people in the church." - Say what?! I don't know about you, preacher, but I spend about 50 hours per week interacting with dozens of co-workers. If I got to every single service or event throughout the week, I spend maybe 10 hours per week with church members, and half of that time is in my pew singing and listening to a sermon.

I posted a few weeks back about the time a special service was called three days in advance. Unfortunately, my family had already made plans (months ago) for the evening of that service. It was said over the pulpit - "If you don't change your schedule to be here, you must not love children." Say what?! Excuse me, but some of us have family and obligations outside of these four walls. Get a clue, and stop undermining my parenting with your guilt trips.

Another time I heard, "This sounds arrogant, but if anyone has a right to skip church - given how much I'm involved with day-to-day here - it's me." Say what?! Excuse me, but when you decided to take a salary from the church, you lost all "rights" to say you can skip when you're feeling tired. That'd be like me telling my client that "if anyone has a right to miss a meeting, it's me, because I work here all the time and sometimes I'm just too busy." Um, no. Sure, give yourself a set amount of vacation every year, but you absolutely do not get to feel "superior" for "never missing a service". It's. Your. Job.



I hate feeling so hyper-critical all the time. If I got up and spoke on a platform 5+ hours a week, I'm sure there are things I would say that could be misconstrued and picked apart. But, honestly, if you take a second to put on a little empathy and put yourself in the shoes of your congregation - rather than trying to guilt them into "being good saints" - I don't think these comments would come out of your mouth.

Sounds like you will fit perfect here on AFF :icecream

[RandyWayne]

Originalist, your story of the family hanging out at the church with the takeout containers, doing homework...reminds me very much of certain periods of my family.

No one can say that they're "wrong"...maybe it's what's right for their family, and their children will look back on those memories fondly. Or maybe they're missing opportunities to connect on a real level with their kids and prepare them for adulthood responsibilities. But let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say, "Blessings to them for their dedication."

It's folly for someone to look at that family where both parents work full-time jobs and expect that everyone else in the congregation should be just as "dedicated". Or that those who don't put in that much time into church activities are somehow not as "sold out". It's especially harmful when we try to put a measuring stick on involvement and hint that salvation is at risk if one isn't as involved as the pastor hints you should be. I'll say again, it trivializes our Christian walk to think that God somehow has a leaderboard where he puts a mark against me should I miss an occasional service for a family function.

That was our family too. It just seemed like we were always there. Probably because we were! You wanted to BE the family who spent the majority of their non-service nights at the church doing something because of how it looked as well as the very real feeling that you were doing something to earn your way through the pearly gates.

[Real Realism]

Sounds like you will fit perfect here on AFF :icecream

:heeheehee This ain't my first time around the block.

[n david]

No one can say that they're "wrong"...maybe it's what's right for their family, and their children will look back on those memories fondly. Or maybe they're missing opportunities to connect on a real level with their kids and prepare them for adulthood responsibilities. But let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say, "Blessings to them for their dedication."
Thank you. :thumbsup

It's folly for someone to look at that family where both parents work full-time jobs and expect that everyone else in the congregation should be just as "dedicated". Or that those who don't put in that much time into church activities are somehow not as "sold out". It's especially harmful when we try to put a measuring stick on involvement and hint that salvation is at risk if one isn't as involved as the pastor hints you should be. I'll say again, it trivializes our Christian walk to think that God somehow has a leaderboard where he puts a mark against me should I miss an occasional service for a family function.
I agree 100%

[Originalist]

Thank you. :thumbsup


I agree 100%

Maybe you like the way he said it better, but I basically said the same thing.

[Originalist]

That was our family too. It just seemed like we were always there. Probably because we were! You wanted to BE the family who spent the majority of their non-service nights at the church doing something because of how it looked as well as the very real feeling that you were doing something to earn your way through the pearly gates.


I don't think these people think they are saved by works. But they do act sometimes as if though works will keep them saved.

[n david]

And yes, a pastor needs to be cautious in attacking those who he deems to be under-involved, but he should be just as cautious in allowing people to be over-involved. That is what good pastor would do and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that statement.
1) A Pastor should never "attack" anyone for not being involved. Of course, the truth is there are very, very few Pastors who may do this; the overwhelming majority don't "attack" people for lack of involvement.

2) You're post above puts the Pastor in a lose-lose situation. You complain when a Pastor asks for people to be involved; yet you also complain if he allows someone who is willing to be involved to curb their involvement. He can't win with you! Either he's a jerk for wanting people to be involved, or he's a jerk for letting a willing party be too involved.

SMH

[RandyWayne]

I don't think these people think they are saved by works. But they do act sometimes as if though works will keep them saved.

That is pretty much what I meant to say.

[Real Realism]

1) A Pastor should never "attack" anyone for not being involved. Of course, the truth is there are very, very few Pastors who may do this; the overwhelming majority don't "attack" people for lack of involvement.


I think we're all in agreement on this point.

But where I was going when I started this thread is the more subtle tactics and laying on of guilt.

I know there are pastors who actually ream people publicly and will "kick people out" of their church. However, you're right, that's extremely rare.

What is not so rare is the guilt trips that are placed upon the congregation, often passive aggressively from the "authority" of the pulpit. And that also has its own psychological ramifications on one's understanding of "what it takes" to be saved.

I don't think these people think they are saved by works. But they do act sometimes as if though works will keep them saved.

Truth. So well put I hesitate to add my own spin on it.

[Praxeas]

Now that I have your attention with my inflammatory title...

Do "full-time pastors" sometimes forget that the rest of us have a life outside of church? Here are a couple things I've heard said over the years that caused me to think..."Say what?!"

One pastor said to his congregation, in regard to getting along with the body of Christ, "If you think about it, except for your family, you likely spend most of your time with people in the church." - Say what?! I don't know about you, preacher, but I spend about 50 hours per week interacting with dozens of co-workers. If I got to every single service or event throughout the week, I spend maybe 10 hours per week with church members, and half of that time is in my pew singing and listening to a sermon.

I posted a few weeks back about the time a special service was called three days in advance. Unfortunately, my family had already made plans (months ago) for the evening of that service. It was said over the pulpit - "If you don't change your schedule to be here, you must not love children." Say what?! Excuse me, but some of us have family and obligations outside of these four walls. Get a clue, and stop undermining my parenting with your guilt trips.

Another time I heard, "This sounds arrogant, but if anyone has a right to skip church - given how much I'm involved with day-to-day here - it's me." Say what?! Excuse me, but when you decided to take a salary from the church, you lost all "rights" to say you can skip when you're feeling tired. That'd be like me telling my client that "if anyone has a right to miss a meeting, it's me, because I work here all the time and sometimes I'm just too busy." Um, no. Sure, give yourself a set amount of vacation every year, but you absolutely do not get to feel "superior" for "never missing a service". It's. Your. Job.



I hate feeling so hyper-critical all the time. If I got up and spoke on a platform 5+ hours a week, I'm sure there are things I would say that could be misconstrued and picked apart. But, honestly, if you take a second to put on a little empathy and put yourself in the shoes of your congregation - rather than trying to guilt them into "being good saints" - I don't think these comments would come out of your mouth.
You should have titled this "MY Pastor needs to get a life", because you did not describe all Pastors

[Real Realism]

I thought of changing it to "Pastors who need to get a life." but it was already up and done and didn't feel like editing. Still got the point across.

BTW, this is not about one sigular pastor. It appears I'm not the only one who's experienced this type of out-of-touch pastorate placing demands on their congregation without any understanding of what their day-to-day life is really like.

[n david]

It appears I'm not the only one who's experienced this type of out-of-touch pastorate placing demands on their congregation without any understanding of what their day-to-day life is really like.
This is AFF....any thread hitting on Pastors will be popular.

[Praxeas]

Ture Ture

[Praxeas]

BTW all such examples sounds like a Pastor I know of nearby. I've heard stories like these from former members for years

[Jason B]

Follow-up thought: Am I being overly critical? Would this type of disconnect with "the outside world" bother anyone else?

I've noticed that the preachers who seem most likely to harp on church involvement at the expense of work and family seem to be those who never held a career outside of the ministry...

True dat

[Jason B]

RR, quit whining and get a life or become a pastor since you know how to be one. Maybe you could host seminars or write some material on the subject and be a blessing to all those poor clueless pastors you speak of. Seems like the only ones who don't know how to pastor are the pastors. As n david said, "good grief".

Quit whining?! Are you a pastor? Some of the absolute meanest people I've ever met are OP pastors who are far too eager to put the rod on the sheep.

[RandyWayne]

Ever since my stint in the UPC during my teen years I vowed I would never let a man control me, any future spouse or any kids, outside of the four walls (and even WITHIN the four walls for all practical purposes). I've kept that promise.

For me the UPC is a memory (as I care next to nothing about all these threads about its history), but the lessons learned will never be forgotten. I have employed by acquired verbal-martial arts skills a few times on NON-UPC pastors since leaving and have been completely unaffected by tales they continual to tell of those who have left and DIED.

[Nitehawk013]

I think as in most cases the issue is that saints have more access to history and commentary now, and are far more likely to question leaders. So most can read their bible, pull commentary, use the net to dig and find that the way we "do church" doesn't really resemble the original church all that much. Now it works to an extent. It is doing good and winning some souls, but it just doesn't fit the model of the original.

Part of that is the constant emphasis on the stupid building, makign sure you are at every service and any time the doors are open, makign sur eyou are giving up time on othe rnights for church activities, work sessions or practices if you are in music, on and on and on. It never ends. Where the heck was all this stuff in the Acts church? Where was it in the first century churches?

Then you have peopel like me, who is in the ministry and still looking into starting a home church/bible study in a town with no pentecostal church at all, that are just worn out and tired of the "institutional" model of church. I'm sick of hearing about giving ever more money and time to make sure the performance can go on and the building is always "state of the art". I'm tired of the emphasis being on church instead of FAMILY. Oh...we hear "god, family then church" all the time...but then the actual meat of preaching tells the opposite. You may not be attacked, but it is implied heavily that if you aren't pouring every dime and minute you have into the "church" then you must be backslidden. You're robbing God and destroying your kid's futures by not teaching them to "love the house of God and the man of God".

It does seem unfair to dogpile on Pastors, but guess what? They are the ones doing this. It's not JOhnny Ride-a-pew telling us to put our wives and kids on the back burner to make sure being at a stupid building to hear a sermon we've already probably heard a thousand times. It's the Pastors in our movement. You get what you preach, and they are preaching this idea that church, NOT GOD, should be the most important focal point in ones life. And yet when there is backlash against that idea...well we are just bitter, angry Pastor-haters.

For some of us, "church" has ceased to edify or offer us anything that really feeds us. I admit, I'm sick of going. I'd rather sit in my study and listen to some good, deep theological teaching on the web than go sit in yet another service and hear yet another sermon about giving more, praising God in hard times or holding on to our Apostolic Identity. So yeah...this place is a kind of therapy for us. It can get out of hand at times, but overall...we need somewhere to vent. If not we may very well rot if we don't vent and let it out.

[renee819]

I think as in most cases the issue is that saints have more access to history and commentary now, and are far more likely to question leaders. So most can read their bible, pull commentary, use the net to dig and find that the way we "do church" doesn't really resemble the original church all that much. Now it works to an extent. It is doing good and winning some souls, but it just doesn't fit the model of the original.

Part of that is the constant emphasis on the stupid building, makign sure you are at every service and any time the doors are open, makign sur eyou are giving up time on othe rnights for church activities, work sessions or practices if you are in music, on and on and on. It never ends. Where the heck was all this stuff in the Acts church? Where was it in the first century churches?

Then you have peopel like me, who is in the ministry and still looking into starting a home church/bible study in a town with no pentecostal church at all, that are just worn out and tired of the "institutional" model of church. I'm sick of hearing about giving ever more money and time to make sure the performance can go on and the building is always "state of the art". I'm tired of the emphasis being on church instead of FAMILY. Oh...we hear "god, family then church" all the time...but then the actual meat of preaching tells the opposite. You may not be attacked, but it is implied heavily that if you aren't pouring every dime and minute you have into the "church" then you must be backslidden. You're robbing God and destroying your kid's futures by not teaching them to "love the house of God and the man of God".

It does seem unfair to dogpile on Pastors, but guess what? They are the ones doing this. It's not JOhnny Ride-a-pew telling us to put our wives and kids on the back burner to make sure being at a stupid building to hear a sermon we've already probably heard a thousand times. It's the Pastors in our movement. You get what you preach, and they are preaching this idea that church, NOT GOD, should be the most important focal point in ones life. And yet when there is backlash against that idea...well we are just bitter, angry Pastor-haters.

For some of us, "church" has ceased to edify or offer us anything that really feeds us. I admit, I'm sick of going. I'd rather sit in my study and listen to some good, deep theological teaching on the web than go sit in yet another service and hear yet another sermon about giving more, praising God in hard times or holding on to our Apostolic Identity. So yeah...this place is a kind of therapy for us. It can get out of hand at times, but overall...we need somewhere to vent. If not we may very well rot if we don't vent and let it out.

AMEN!

[ILG]

Follow-up thought: Am I being overly critical? Would this type of disconnect with "the outside world" bother anyone else?

I've noticed that the preachers who seem most likely to harp on church involvement at the expense of work and family seem to be those who never held a career outside of the ministry...

I don't think you are being overly critical. A place of worship should be a place of uplifting, not a beating.

[Jason B]

I think as in most cases the issue is that saints have more access to history and commentary now, and are far more likely to question leaders. So most can read their bible, pull commentary, use the net to dig and find that the way we "do church" doesn't really resemble the original church all that much. Now it works to an extent. It is doing good and winning some souls, but it just doesn't fit the model of the original.

Part of that is the constant emphasis on the stupid building, makign sure you are at every service and any time the doors are open, makign sur eyou are giving up time on othe rnights for church activities, work sessions or practices if you are in music, on and on and on. It never ends. Where the heck was all this stuff in the Acts church? Where was it in the first century churches?

Then you have peopel like me, who is in the ministry and still looking into starting a home church/bible study in a town with no pentecostal church at all, that are just worn out and tired of the "institutional" model of church. I'm sick of hearing about giving ever more money and time to make sure the performance can go on and the building is always "state of the art". I'm tired of the emphasis being on church instead of FAMILY. Oh...we hear "god, family then church" all the time...but then the actual meat of preaching tells the opposite. You may not be attacked, but it is implied heavily that if you aren't pouring every dime and minute you have into the "church" then you must be backslidden. You're robbing God and destroying your kid's futures by not teaching them to "love the house of God and the man of God".

It does seem unfair to dogpile on Pastors, but guess what? They are the ones doing this. It's not JOhnny Ride-a-pew telling us to put our wives and kids on the back burner to make sure being at a stupid building to hear a sermon we've already probably heard a thousand times. It's the Pastors in our movement. You get what you preach, and they are preaching this idea that church, NOT GOD, should be the most important focal point in ones life. And yet when there is backlash against that idea...well we are just bitter, angry Pastor-haters.

For some of us, "church" has ceased to edify or offer us anything that really feeds us. I admit, I'm sick of going. I'd rather sit in my study and listen to some good, deep theological teaching on the web than go sit in yet another service and hear yet another sermon about giving more, praising God in hard times or holding on to our Apostolic Identity. So yeah...this place is a kind of therapy for us. It can get out of hand at times, but overall...we need somewhere to vent. If not we may very well rot if we don't vent and let it out.

Let it flow.

[Originalist]

I think as in most cases the issue is that saints have more access to history and commentary now, and are far more likely to question leaders. So most can read their bible, pull commentary, use the net to dig and find that the way we "do church" doesn't really resemble the original church all that much. Now it works to an extent. It is doing good and winning some souls, but it just doesn't fit the model of the original.

Part of that is the constant emphasis on the stupid building, makign sure you are at every service and any time the doors are open, makign sur eyou are giving up time on othe rnights for church activities, work sessions or practices if you are in music, on and on and on. It never ends. Where the heck was all this stuff in the Acts church? Where was it in the first century churches?

Then you have peopel like me, who is in the ministry and still looking into starting a home church/bible study in a town with no pentecostal church at all, that are just worn out and tired of the "institutional" model of church. I'm sick of hearing about giving ever more money and time to make sure the performance can go on and the building is always "state of the art". I'm tired of the emphasis being on church instead of FAMILY. Oh...we hear "god, family then church" all the time...but then the actual meat of preaching tells the opposite. You may not be attacked, but it is implied heavily that if you aren't pouring every dime and minute you have into the "church" then you must be backslidden. You're robbing God and destroying your kid's futures by not teaching them to "love the house of God and the man of God".

It does seem unfair to dogpile on Pastors, but guess what? They are the ones doing this. It's not JOhnny Ride-a-pew telling us to put our wives and kids on the back burner to make sure being at a stupid building to hear a sermon we've already probably heard a thousand times. It's the Pastors in our movement. You get what you preach, and they are preaching this idea that church, NOT GOD, should be the most important focal point in ones life. And yet when there is backlash against that idea...well we are just bitter, angry Pastor-haters.

For some of us, "church" has ceased to edify or offer us anything that really feeds us. I admit, I'm sick of going. I'd rather sit in my study and listen to some good, deep theological teaching on the web than go sit in yet another service and hear yet another sermon about giving more, praising God in hard times or holding on to our Apostolic Identity. So yeah...this place is a kind of therapy for us. It can get out of hand at times, but overall...we need somewhere to vent. If not we may very well rot if we don't vent and let it out.

Amen!!

I was thinking the other day that it would be interesting to put a commercial on TV or YouTube advertising the opening of "The Church of Simplicity". I would start the commercial with the announcer saying...."Has church become just a little too complicated?". Then a 15 second segment would be run of very short clips of all the excesses that go on in church. Then the announcer would say, "If you are looking for a return the simplicity that is in Christ, then we invite you to worship with us. Worship, the word, and fellowship. We sing hymns and other songs that truly glorify the Lord and that create an atmosphere where His Spirit can minister. We disciple believers and help[ them to reach their communities as Christ commanded. Ninety percent of our ministry occurs outside of our facilities. And we do not take offerings during the service. We provide a drop box and online giving for those who feel led to help us. If you are tired of the church rat race, then come find refuge with us."


If you advertised that for 2 weeks before actually opening, I guarantee you'd have a hundred people your first service.

[Esaias]

Too bad Jesus didn't come to this world in order to 'build a place of worship'.

He came to build a PEOPLE.

The disconnect between what was originally established and what passes for it nowadays is the source of all these, and related and similar, 'problems'.

[n david]

I think as in most cases the issue is that saints have more access to history and commentary now, and are far more likely to question leaders. So most can read their bible, pull commentary, use the net to dig and find that the way we "do church" doesn't really resemble the original church all that much. Now it works to an extent. It is doing good and winning some souls, but it just doesn't fit the model of the original.

Part of that is the constant emphasis on the stupid building, makign sure you are at every service and any time the doors are open, makign sur eyou are giving up time on othe rnights for church activities, work sessions or practices if you are in music, on and on and on. It never ends. Where the heck was all this stuff in the Acts church? Where was it in the first century churches?

Then you have peopel like me, who is in the ministry and still looking into starting a home church/bible study in a town with no pentecostal church at all, that are just worn out and tired of the "institutional" model of church. I'm sick of hearing about giving ever more money and time to make sure the performance can go on and the building is always "state of the art". I'm tired of the emphasis being on church instead of FAMILY. Oh...we hear "god, family then church" all the time...but then the actual meat of preaching tells the opposite. You may not be attacked, but it is implied heavily that if you aren't pouring every dime and minute you have into the "church" then you must be backslidden. You're robbing God and destroying your kid's futures by not teaching them to "love the house of God and the man of God".

It does seem unfair to dogpile on Pastors, but guess what? They are the ones doing this. It's not JOhnny Ride-a-pew telling us to put our wives and kids on the back burner to make sure being at a stupid building to hear a sermon we've already probably heard a thousand times. It's the Pastors in our movement. You get what you preach, and they are preaching this idea that church, NOT GOD, should be the most important focal point in ones life. And yet when there is backlash against that idea...well we are just bitter, angry Pastor-haters.

For some of us, "church" has ceased to edify or offer us anything that really feeds us. I admit, I'm sick of going. I'd rather sit in my study and listen to some good, deep theological teaching on the web than go sit in yet another service and hear yet another sermon about giving more, praising God in hard times or holding on to our Apostolic Identity. So yeah...this place is a kind of therapy for us. It can get out of hand at times, but overall...we need somewhere to vent. If not we may very well rot if we don't vent and let it out.
Bitter much? :tissue

[n david]

I think as in most cases the issue is that saints have more access to history and commentary now, and are far more likely to question leaders. So most can read their bible, pull commentary, use the net to dig and find that the way we "do church" doesn't really resemble the original church all that much. Now it works to an extent. It is doing good and winning some souls, but it just doesn't fit the model of the original.
What was the model of the original?

Part of that is the constant emphasis on the stupid building, making sure you are at every service and any time the doors are open, making sure you are giving up time on other nights for church activities, work sessions or practices if you are in music, on and on and on. It never ends. Where...was all this stuff in the Acts church? Where was it in the first century churches?

Then you have people like me, who is in the ministry and still looking into starting a home church/bible study in a town with no pentecostal church at all, that are just worn out and tired of the "institutional" model of church. I'm sick of hearing about giving ever more money and time to make sure the performance can go on and the building is always "state of the art". I'm tired of the emphasis being on church instead of FAMILY. Oh...we hear "god, family then church" all the time...but then the actual meat of preaching tells the opposite. You may not be attacked, but it is implied heavily that if you aren't pouring every dime and minute you have into the "church" then you must be back-slidden. You're robbing God and destroying your kid's futures by not teaching them to "love the house of God and the man of God".
Based on what I read in Acts, you would've been complaining about the early church too. They were meeting daily, breaking bread and sharing the Gospel; and you're complaining about "making sure you are at every service and any time the doors are open, making sure you are giving up time on other nights for church activities...." Sorry, I really don't think you would've made it if you lived during the time of the Acts of the Apostles. They also gave all their money. Yet you complain about that, too.

It does seem unfair to dogpile on Pastors, but guess what? They are the ones doing this. It's not Johnny Ride-a-pew telling us to put our wives and kids on the back burner to make sure being at a stupid building to hear a sermon we've already probably heard a thousand times. It's the Pastors in our movement. You get what you preach, and they are preaching this idea that church, NOT GOD, should be the most important focal point in ones life. And yet when there is backlash against that idea...well we are just bitter, angry Pastor-haters.
Well, maybe if you didn't sound like a bitter, angry Pastor-hater you wouldn't be labeled a bitter, angry Pastor-hater! Good grief. A spade is a spade, man. Your entire quote, especially the part above is very bitter and angry. You get what you put into the service. With that kind of attitude, no wonder you don't get anything out of the service.

"Hear a sermon we've already probably heard a thousand times." You know, there isn't much in the Bible most haven't heard at least once. In fact, you mentioned above that you want to start a home church/bible study; I hope you never repeat a verse or message when your into your 5th or 10th year. You wouldn't want people coming to your stupid house to listen to you give a message they've probably heard a thousand times.

they are preaching this idea that church, NOT GOD, should be the most important focal point in ones life
I don't believe it. Not sure what church you've attended or Pastor you've had, but in the churches I've both visited and been involved with, I've never heard a Pastor declare that church was more important than God. This is just hyperbole...exaggeration.

For some of us, "church" has ceased to edify or offer us anything that really feeds us. I admit, I'm sick of going. I'd rather sit in my study and listen to some good, deep theological teaching on the web than go sit in yet another service and hear yet another sermon about giving more, praising God in hard times or holding on to our Apostolic Identity. So yeah...this place is a kind of therapy for us. It can get out of hand at times, but overall...we need somewhere to vent. If not we may very well rot if we don't vent and let it out.
Ah yes, the meChurch. It should be all about you. Every part, every song, every message should be custom made for you. :nod

I bet you've probably heard the subject of these good, deep theological teachings about a thousand times as well. But it's okay, because you're not in a stupid building listening to a Pastor give the same kind of message.

[Originalist]

What was the model of the original?




Based on what I read in Acts, you would've been complaining about the early church too. They were meeting daily, breaking bread and sharing the Gospel; and you're complaining about "making sure you are at every service and any time the doors are open, making sure you are giving up time on other nights for church activities...." Sorry, I really don't think you would've made it if you lived during the time of the Acts of the Apostles. They also gave all their money. Yet you complain about that, too.


Well, maybe if you didn't sound like a bitter, angry Pastor-hater you wouldn't be labeled a bitter, angry Pastor-hater! Good grief. A spade is a spade, man. Your entire quote, especially the part above is very bitter and angry. You get what you put into the service. With that kind of attitude, no wonder you don't get anything out of the service.

"Hear a sermon we've already probably heard a thousand times." You know, there isn't much in the Bible most haven't heard at least once. In fact, you mentioned above that you want to start a home church/bible study; I hope you never repeat a verse or message when your into your 5th or 10th year. You wouldn't want people coming to your stupid house to listen to you give a message they've probably heard a thousand times.


I don't believe it. Not sure what church you've attended or Pastor you've had, but in the churches I've both visited and been involved with, I've never heard a Pastor declare that church was more important than God. This is just hyperbole...exaggeration.


Ah yes, the meChurch. It should be all about you. Every part, every song, every message should be custom made for you. :nod

I bet you've probably heard the subject of these good, deep theological teachings about a thousand times as well. But it's okay, because you're not in a stupid building listening to a Pastor give the same kind of message.

Are you Harry Reid? If not, you sure missed a good chance to be with all your gross mis-representations.

[MarieA27]

Bitter much? :tissue


Lol! I'm sorry... :heeheehee

[Nitehawk013]

What was the model of the original?




Based on what I read in Acts, you would've been complaining about the early church too. They were meeting daily, breaking bread and sharing the Gospel; and you're complaining about "making sure you are at every service and any time the doors are open, making sure you are giving up time on other nights for church activities...." Sorry, I really don't think you would've made it if you lived during the time of the Acts of the Apostles. They also gave all their money. Yet you complain about that, too.

Ok I'll bite. I know it won't do any good, but I'll bite anyhow. The first church meeting to eat and encourage and possibly spread teh gospel is DRAMATICALLY different from "hey lets play dress up, drive to our building, sing a couple songs and then sit for an hour listening to someone tell us how he thinks we should live and then give an offering for new lights and video screens". Gathering with the brethren to have a meal and talk abotu how good God is...THAT would BE GREAT. That isn't at all what "church" is today though and you know it. You're simply misrepresenting what I said.

As to them giving everything they had, that was a one time occurrance in teh Jerusalem church that is never repeated in scripture nor is it ever commanded or even encouraged by the Apostles. What they did likely was due to the cultural backlash against the first Christians.
Well, maybe if you didn't sound like a bitter, angry Pastor-hater you wouldn't be labeled a bitter, angry Pastor-hater! Good grief. A spade is a spade, man. Your entire quote, especially the part above is very bitter and angry. You get what you put into the service. With that kind of attitude, no wonder you don't get anything out of the service.

"Hear a sermon we've already probably heard a thousand times." You know, there isn't much in the Bible most haven't heard at least once. In fact, you mentioned above that you want to start a home church/bible study; I hope you never repeat a verse or message when your into your 5th or 10th year. You wouldn't want people coming to your stupid house to listen to you give a message they've probably heard a thousand times.

Again, you know very well there are men who are one trick onies and you kow there are Pastors who lead by basically hammering the same nail over and over and over. Church today is liek kindergarten. They continue to preach and teach to the lowest hanging fruit. Those of us who graduated "Christianity 101" years ago have to sit and hear things week after week that we already know perfecly well...and we have no choice. I don't need another sermon on praising in hard times. I've gone through job stress, my wife's two miscarriages, losing both my parents, etc and I didn't stop praising and serving God. What I would liek is to hear somehting new or deep once ina while.


I don't believe it. Not sure what church you've attended or Pastor you've had, but in the churches I've both visited and been involved with, I've never heard a Pastor declare that church was more important than God. This is just hyperbole...exaggeration.

Yeah I bet you have NEVER heard a pastor say you should try not to go on vacation and miss church more than once a year, or give you "that look" when you can't make it to service due to work. I suppose you just happen to be the one guy in America who just happens to go to that one perfect church where that sort of nonsense never ever comes from the pulpit.
Ah yes, the meChurch. It should be all about you. Every part, every song, every message should be custom made for you. :nod

I bet you've probably heard the subject of these good, deep theological teachings about a thousand times as well. But it's okay, because you're not in a stupid building listening to a Pastor give the same kind of message.

Actually, no. I can listen to lessons on Calvinism from more differing angles than you can imagine. I can pull up some Chan sermons on things that I have NEVER heard in Apostolic sermons in 20 years around Apostolica. I can go to Credo House and listen to seminary level teaching on theology. Or I can listen to guys with mayeb 1 year of Bible college tell me how facial hair on a man is sinful b/c it is rebellion.

You are typical of those who like things just the way they are. I'm surprised you aren't a pastor yourself considering how well you know and use the strawmen arguments typical of your position. You can't stand the idea that there are those of us tired of "church" that want more tahn is being offered by most leaders so you have to try to discredit our complaints.

Buckle up. Your kind is indeed growing old and dying out. In time it will be those with my thnking that continue to grow in number and influence. So even though I may not see the day, I have hopes that my sons will see a day when they aren't brow beaten into thinking institutionalized church is the only way to God.

[The Lemon]

Wow! We are all accountable for our own choices and decisions, regardless of how others either feel or don't feel about what choice(s) are made.

Attitude is so critical. If a Pastor or Minister seems to be going overboard you can either go and talk to them privately about their intentions or you can try to perceive what they mean.

Even if you get worse case scenario from said leader, how you handle the information is in many ways more critical then how it may be presented to you.

I understand the issue of involvement on both ends - I have been a part of the 20% that did 80% - but I also understand what can happen to aperson and a home situation due to burnout - so you make grown up choices for a grown up situation.

No matter what decision you come to, you have to be able to live at peace with it. If you go to an assembly where less involvement on your part equalls less opportunity to do whatever you feel or would like to do in the church - then understand the reasons why and if you agree or not, you have to either live with it or hopefully pray for direction.

Sometimes quiet confidence with a good spirit is much better then an open mouth with contention - be it right or wrong.

As hard as it may be, holding on to anger or resentment regardless of who is in the right or wrong, does more to destroy you as an individual then anything. Do what you know you can do, pray and be sensitive, and walk honestly and humbly before God and don't sweat the rest..

[endtimer]

Wow! We are all accountable for our own choices and decisions, regardless of how others either feel or don't feel about what choice(s) are made.

Attitude is so critical. If a Pastor or Minister seems to be going overboard you can either go and talk to them privately about their intentions or you can try to perceive what they mean.

Even if you get worse case scenario from said leader, how you handle the information is in many ways more critical then how it may be presented to you.

I understand the issue of involvement on both ends - I have been a part of the 20% that did 80% - but I also understand what can happen to aperson and a home situation due to burnout - so you make grown up choices for a grown up situation.

No matter what decision you come to, you have to be able to live at peace with it. If you go to an assembly where less involvement on your part equalls less opportunity to do whatever you feel or would like to do in the church - then understand the reasons why and if you agree or not, you have to either live with it or hopefully pray for direction.

Sometimes quiet confidence with a good spirit is much better then an open mouth with contention - be it right or wrong.

As hard as it may be, holding on to anger or resentment regardless of who is in the right or wrong, does more to destroy you as an individual then anything. Do what you know you can do, pray and be sensitive, and walk honestly and humbly before God and don't sweat the rest..

Amen, amen on all the above.

[Originalist]

Wow! We are all accountable for our own choices and decisions, regardless of how others either feel or don't feel about what choice(s) are made.

Attitude is so critical. If a Pastor or Minister seems to be going overboard you can either go and talk to them privately about their intentions or you can try to perceive what they mean.

Even if you get worse case scenario from said leader, how you handle the information is in many ways more critical then how it may be presented to you.

I understand the issue of involvement on both ends - I have been a part of the 20% that did 80% - but I also understand what can happen to aperson and a home situation due to burnout - so you make grown up choices for a grown up situation.

No matter what decision you come to, you have to be able to live at peace with it. If you go to an assembly where less involvement on your part equalls less opportunity to do whatever you feel or would like to do in the church - then understand the reasons why and if you agree or not, you have to either live with it or hopefully pray for direction.

Sometimes quiet confidence with a good spirit is much better then an open mouth with contention - be it right or wrong.

As hard as it may be, holding on to anger or resentment regardless of who is in the right or wrong, does more to destroy you as an individual then anything. Do what you know you can do, pray and be sensitive, and walk honestly and humbly before God and don't sweat the rest..

I agree. Great post. But sometimes your "quiet confidence with a good spirit" is baffling to those who are sure your lack of "works" indicates you are backsliding.

[Esaias]

When I came into Pentecost, I found myself in a church in the middle of a blazing revival (as far as I have ever seen since, anyway).

There was no program.

People came to meeting expecting God to do amazing things. There was no 'hearing the same thing over and over again'. In fact, the pastor might not even preach. Why? Because you couldn't keep people down, people would testify (no need for the preacher to try and pry some testimony from someone, people literally had to wait their turn to tell what great things God had done and was doing), there was prophesying and messages in tongues and interpretation, practically every meeting somebody got the Holy Ghost, the congregation would literally, spontaneoously burst out into song (yes, the SAME song, everyone singing together, with no prep or planning), the whole service was an extended, fervent 'holy roller' prayer and testimony meeting. The pastor (or visiting evangelist, we had several showed up) had a simple job - he would speak whatever God wanted him to speak and he would get out of the way and let GOD CONTINUE TO SPEAK through whoever HE wanted.

I have yet to see THAT kind of Pentecost in any 'pentecostal' service since, EXCEPT in either a house church setting or in private prayer meetings (which are basically the same thing, really, come to think of it...)

People are complaining more and more because, quite simply, they are tired of being the victim of a bait and switch.

We see 'Pentecostal', 'Spirit filled', Holy Ghost revival', etc on the sign or the flyer or the website... we show up...and it just ain't happening.

I've been to places that were supposedly 'happening' and all I found was mere emotionalism, loud music, preachers 'pumping up' the audience, lots of 'activity' but sure enough it's over and done with right on time, everytime, and it amounts to nothing more than religious entertainment.

Too many people have come to worship their form of worship...

We need to get back to real Pentecost.

If we did that, then MUCH of the constant issues we hear about over and over would fade away, eclipsed by the glorious work of the Spirit of Jesus Christ in our midst.

We'd be too busy testifying to be griping.

[Nitehawk013]

Agreed Esaias.

Our church was around 100 when I started attending nearly 20 years ago. It was never crazy, but it was far more "free" to the spirit. Now I look and we are a bigger church, a nicer building, fanatastic music, great technology and IT, and have 400+ members. But it is so controlled, so scheduled, so planned that it almost feels as though God has to basically kick the door down in order to have the "performance" stop and allow Him to just move. We are great at pumping folks up. We know just how to play the right song when needed. We know when to use the right words to get teh "cheap pop" from folks. And it sure is professional so the more afluent business types sure do love coming...but I feel liek we happily sacrificed the passion and fire to grow and be more professional.

I feel more God in my devotions and times alone in my study with God than I have at church in a LONG time. I love being aroudn the people, the family of God, but I'm just sick of the stupid show we have to go to. I would LOVE for there to be a fiery home church around me, but I know of none. I have considered many times trying to start one, but I have no idea how to do so. The more weary I get with "church" the more I feel I may need to just do it whether I know what I am doing or not.

[Esaias]

I have considered many times trying to start one, but I have no idea how to do so. The more weary I get with "church" the more I feel I may need to just do it whether I know what I am doing or not.

Of course you don't know what you are doing.

That's why we need God.

[Real Realism]

Wow! We are all accountable for our own choices and decisions, regardless of how others either feel or don't feel about what choice(s) are made.

Attitude is so critical. If a Pastor or Minister seems to be going overboard you can either go and talk to them privately about their intentions or you can try to perceive what they mean.

Even if you get worse case scenario from said leader, how you handle the information is in many ways more critical then how it may be presented to you.

I understand the issue of involvement on both ends - I have been a part of the 20% that did 80% - but I also understand what can happen to aperson and a home situation due to burnout - so you make grown up choices for a grown up situation.

No matter what decision you come to, you have to be able to live at peace with it. If you go to an assembly where less involvement on your part equalls less opportunity to do whatever you feel or would like to do in the church - then understand the reasons why and if you agree or not, you have to either live with it or hopefully pray for direction.

Sometimes quiet confidence with a good spirit is much better then an open mouth with contention - be it right or wrong.

As hard as it may be, holding on to anger or resentment regardless of who is in the right or wrong, does more to destroy you as an individual then anything. Do what you know you can do, pray and be sensitive, and walk honestly and humbly before God and don't sweat the rest..

:thumbsup Great advice for any situation where a disagreement or misunderstanding may occur.

And while I would always attempt to be gracious and exhibit brotherly love, regardless of my frustrations, there's a recurring theme at stake here, and that's one of using guilt - at worst, fear that salvation is at stake...at best, fear that you'll look bad to your peers at church - to illicit behavior.

It becomes increasingly concerning when comments are made to undermine parents - when children are sitting in the service, and they hear the preacher say, "If you missed yesterday's Family Function meeting, you're not doing what's best for your kids." There's a way to encourage behavior by making something compelling, uplifting, and exciting. If you're having to browbeat people into attending something, I think it's already been said, maybe there's a reason people aren't attending. Maybe it's not as edifying as you think it is. Maybe there are other burnout issues going on. But to say it in such a way that criticizes certain members of the congregation publicly is wrong. Sure, you're not "calling people out" by name. But you are "calling people out" to everyone who WAS there and saw certain members WEREN'T there.

And yes, yes, we can all pray about it, and peaceably leave if we're in disagreement. But the issue at stake here is that there are pastors who continue to harm certain members in their congregations psychologically with these types of guilt tactics. It seems like we should know better by now, but the cycle just continues, doesn't it.

[n david]

Ok I'll bite. I know it won't do any good, but I'll bite anyhow. The first church meeting to eat and encourage and possibly spread the gospel is DRAMATICALLY different from "hey lets play dress up, drive to our building, sing a couple songs and then sit for an hour listening to someone tell us how he thinks we should live and then give an offering for new lights and video screens". Gathering with the brethren to have a meal and talk about how good God is...THAT would BE GREAT. That isn't at all what "church" is today though and you know it. You're simply misrepresenting what I said.
I disagree; I'm not misrepresenting what you said. The quote I replied to included a complaint about having to hear about giving more money and time. That was your direct quote! It is NOT misrepresenting what you wrote to say that IMO you would've complained about the early church as well. Acts 5:42 "And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ." You complain about having to go to a "stupid" building, what - once or twice a week - to hear some Pastor give a message you've heard a thousand times.

Yet, the early church met DAILY. Every. Single. Day. Both IN THE TEMPLE and in every house; and they taught and preached Jesus Christ. You think they taught or preached something different every time? No, it was the same message over and over and over....a THOUSAND times.

You would've been writing on your parchment, complaining that Peter and Paul were boring you with the same message you've heard a thousand times.

As to them giving everything they had, that was a one time occurrence in the Jerusalem church that is never repeated in scripture nor is it ever commanded or even encouraged by the Apostles. What they did likely was due to the cultural backlash against the first Christians.
You have no basis of facts to say this. We don't know how many times it was done. It was written of once, but could have been repeated.

In fact, neither you nor I know anything of what happened during these Temple or house meetings, save what little is written in Acts. There's no detail as to everything they did. So this stuff about, "we don't do it like the church in Acts did it," is a bunch of nonsense! You don't know how they did it in the early church.

Again, you know very well there are men who are one trick ponies and you know there are Pastors who lead by basically hammering the same nail over and over and over. Church today is like kindergarten. They continue to preach and teach to the lowest hanging fruit. Those of us who graduated "Christianity 101" years ago have to sit and hear things week after week that we already know perfectly well...and we have no choice. I don't need another sermon on praising in hard times. I've gone through job stress, my wife's two miscarriages, losing both my parents, etc and I didn't stop praising and serving God. What I would like is to hear something new or deep once in a while.
Sure, there are a few (and it is a very few) who are "one trick ponies" and other few (and I do mean few) who hammer the same thing over and over. Unfortunately, "There's nothing new under the sun." You're like Elijah looking for God in a strong wind, earthquake and fire; but God isn't in that. You're looking for these new, deep messages that will move you, but maybe if you sit up, stop looking like you sucked a lemon, uncross your arms and listen to the simple message being preached...just maybe that fresh-faced Pastor will have a message in which there's something God wants you to hear.

I think you should start your own church or house group. That way, every message you give will be something new and deep which YOU want to hear.

Yeah I bet you have NEVER heard a pastor say you should try not to go on vacation and miss church more than once a year, or give you "that look" when you can't make it to service due to work. I suppose you just happen to be the one guy in America who just happens to go to that one perfect church where that sort of nonsense never ever comes from the pulpit.
Actually, I haven't had any Pastor tell me not to go on vacation or miss church more than once a year. I have had a Pastor tell me to pray about changing jobs which would require me to work nights and at least one Sunday a month. He didn't slam his fist on the desk or raise his voice; he didn't warn of impending hellfire if I chose to do so. I guess I am lucky.

I did experience one Pastor become irate with a church member because they were going on vacation over Easter weekend. It was an ugly scene pre-service, in back of the sanctuary with visitors (including me) sitting in the pews. That's why I can agree that there are a few who are like this, but they are few.

Actually, no. I can listen to lessons on Calvinism from more differing angles than you can imagine. I can pull up some Chan sermons on things that I have NEVER heard in Apostolic sermons in 20 years around Apostolica.
More hyperbole.

I can go to Credo House and listen to seminary level teaching on theology. Or I can listen to guys with maybe 1 year of Bible college tell me how facial hair on a man is sinful b/c it is rebellion.
So is this it? Is/was your Pastor a recent BC graduate who's younger than you and probably has less experience than you? Because I can understand how difficult it would be to have a young, recent BC graduate as a Pastor. Personally, it would be difficult for me to have a Pastor like that.

You are typical of those who like things just the way they are. I'm surprised you aren't a pastor yourself considering how well you know and use the strawmen arguments typical of your position. You can't stand the idea that there are those of us tired of "church" that want more than is being offered by most leaders so you have to try to discredit our complaints.
And your reply here is typical of people who can't offer a response other than to accuse someone of a straw man argument or complain about being discredited. Look, complain all you want...what good does it do you? It's NOT your Pastor's fault that you go to a "stupid" building and not get anything out of the service. God's there no matter what message is preached which you may have already heard a thousand times. If you can't assemble with other believers and get a blessing from God....it's NOT your Pastor's fault. You're Pastor has no control over your experience with God...that's all on you!

Buckle up. Your kind is indeed growing old and dying out. In time it will be those with my thinking that continue to grow in number and influence. So even though I may not see the day, I have hopes that my sons will see a day when they aren't brow beaten into thinking institutionalized church is the only way to God.
Man, what church do you go to? Seriously. Ok, I have heard Pastors quote the scripture about not forsaking the assembly; but I've never heard any say that "institutionalized church" is the only way to God. Perhaps they've thought that way, but they didn't come out and say it.

[n david]

Are you Harry Reid? If not, you sure missed a good chance to be with all your gross mis-representations.
Go kick a can. :kickcan

I didn't misrepresent anything.

[Originalist]

Go kick a can. :kickcan

I didn't misrepresent anything.

But you did, lad. You did. :blah:blah:blah:blah:blah

[n david]

Our church was around 100 when I started attending nearly 20 years ago. It was never crazy, but it was far more "free" to the spirit. Now I look and we are a bigger church, a nicer building, fantastic music, great technology and IT, and have 400+ members. But it is so controlled, so scheduled, so planned that it almost feels as though God has to basically kick the door down in order to have the "performance" stop and allow Him to just move. We are great at pumping folks up. We know just how to play the right song when needed. We know when to use the right words to get the "cheap pop" from folks. And it sure is professional so the more affluent business types sure do love coming...but I feel like we happily sacrificed the passion and fire to grow and be more professional.
I've visited churches like this. I visited one church which had a clock with the current time and a digital countdown clock next to each other above the sound booth in the middle of the sanctuary. Everything from the songs to announcements to the message was on a timer. The time I visited this church, someone was using a soundtrack to sing with and when the timer hit zero, the soundman faded the track out and stopped the song. I've never been back to visit.

One thing you and I can agree on is that there are many churches which are too structured and programmed. It's more about making sure the service starts right at 9am and ends at 10am than about letting God move.

I feel more God in my devotions and times alone in my study with God than I have at church in a LONG time. I love being around the people, the family of God, but I'm just sick of the stupid show we have to go to. I would LOVE for there to be a fiery home church around me, but I know of none. I have considered many times trying to start one, but I have no idea how to do so. The more weary I get with "church" the more I feel I may need to just do it whether I know what I am doing or not.
If your church is how you described above, I can understand your frustration.

[Jason B]

Amen!!

I was thinking the other day that it would be interesting to put a commercial on TV or YouTube advertising the opening of "The Church of Simplicity". I would start the commercial with the announcer saying...."Has church become just a little too complicated?". Then a 15 second segment would be run of very short clips of all the excesses that go on in church. Then the announcer would say, "If you are looking for a return the simplicity that is in Christ, then we invite you to worship with us. Worship, the word, and fellowship. We sing hymns and other songs that truly glorify the Lord and that create an atmosphere where His Spirit can minister. We disciple believers and help[ them to reach their communities as Christ commanded. Ninety percent of our ministry occurs outside of our facilities. And we do not take offerings during the service. We provide a drop box and online giving for those who feel led to help us. If you are tired of the church rat race, then come find refuge with us."

If you advertised that for 2 weeks before actually opening, I guarantee you'd have a hundred people your first service.

Actually this is VERY close to what I'm trying to establish in Decatur. Haven't done a YouTube video but, have an ad running this weekend in the paper. My biggest challenge right now is just starting up I'm working a F/T job and doing jail ministry and home bible studies. I don't have anyone else in the church yet able to share much of the load. Also we don't take a collection, we have a drop box at the back of the sanctuary. But we also don't have anyone gifted with music and so we play songs over the PA system. Definitely a big handicap. But I'm with you in theory. Working it out in practice from the ground up is challenging.

[Jason B]

Bitter much? :tissue

I guess I fail to understand why some folks seem only able to exercise " tough love". If OP churches choose elders according to the biblical model given in 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1 a lot of men currently in leadership would be disqualified. Perhaps that's why they are so hard on the sheep b/c they don't truly care for the sheep. Instead of actually trying to understand and work something out with others people would rather denigrate them. How Christ like.

[Jason B]

What was the model of the original?


Elders (multiple) in every city, not monarchy like ministry.

[Esaias]

But we also don't have anyone gifted with music and so we play songs over the PA system. Definitely a big handicap.

Just sing a capella. How can that be a handicap, unless you are looking for a musical entertainment venue?

[Real Realism]

Just sing a capella. How can that be a handicap, unless you are looking for a musical entertainment venue?

I agree with this. (Coming from someone with "some" musical gifts. We place way too much emphasis on music in church, especially when music service feels like something we in the audience observe instead of participate. If you have someone who can play and sing, but still involve the congregation, great. Otherwise, nothing is wrong with some a capella where everyone participates equally.)

[BeenThinkin]

I hesitate to say anything. I am a pastor and until "you have pastored" you really don't know what all is involved. There are some things posted on this thread that I agree with and some that I do not. But, the thing that stands out most to me is the attitude, or at least the way the attitude comes across with some, on this post. Wow!

Someone said you need to be careful what you post because it goes on the internet forever. Well what we post goes on God's record forever. I can be right in what I say and be wrong in the way I say it.

There are probably some who would vote Jesus out or at the least not like the way He did things. And to the best of my memory Paul would probably have been criticized greatly for his night long preaching, especially when one of the members fell out the window. That would be front page AFF news, now wouldn't it?

And where the music is concerned, have you tried singing acapella while the church down the street has a full music program. A visitor goes to the musical church and then attends the one that is struggling with sound tracks or accapella (how do you spell that word?). Where do you think they are going to go?

My suggestion is this. Until you get your church over the top; whether it be a house church, store front church or a cathedral, don't be critical of those of us who love our congregation, work endless hours for them and the cause of Christ, giving it our best, and yet still find ourselves lacking in some areas.

In fact, let me conclude my remarks by saying, (in a spirit of love), there are some people who will never find a church they can fit in, if they don't change their attitude.

Nuff said!!! May God bless all of you, and I sure hope He blesses me at the same time.

Been Thinkin

[houston]

They ordained that guy??? Only if they had been thinkin...

[Real Realism]

And where the music is concerned, have you tried singing acapella while the church down the street has a full music program. A visitor goes to the musical church and then attends the one that is struggling with sound tracks or accapella (how do you spell that word?). Where do you think they are going to go?


Actually, yep. Been there more than once growing up, before learning to play. And it certainly wasn't detrimental to our church experience or growth. I don't think a band and praise team are wrong or harmful...but I don't think "not" having those things should be as limiting as we think. I know some are drawn to the big band experience...but there are others who are drawn to a simpler, more participatory experience, as well. There's room for both types of churches, IMO.

Preference in church styles is something totally different than trying to illicit participation from your congregation by means of criticism.

[shag]

All this talk about acupella....I say learn from the best!


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3YenTgqVj9I&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D3YenTgqVj9I

[shag]

Part of tonight's message..."Even God tithed, cause he gave His first fruits, His Son"

and (concerning tithing) "taking care of the financial things of "the church" takes priority over the things of the home".


I've heard it all before..."If u haven't tithed, u not only need to start right away, but u need to back pay back all those years u didn't since u got in church".

On and on and on...


I realize this isnt about tithing, but forgive the "whining"....just picked this thread to get a bit if it off my chest.

[houston]

Well bless God... Lights out and no food on the table... But the windows of heaven poured down a blessing, yessir... Because we paid the pastor!!!

[Jason B]

Part of tonight's message..."Even God tithed, cause he gave His first fruits, His Son"

and (concerning tithing) "taking care of the financial things of "the church" takes priority over the things of the home".

I've heard it all before..."If u haven't tithed, u not only need to start right away, but u need to back pay back all those years u didn't since u got in church".

On and on and on...

I realize this isnt about tithing, but forgive the "whining"....just picked this thread to get a bit if it off my chest.

Wow. What a sickening abuse and ignorance of scripture. That's approaching "money cometh to me now" level.

[Jason B]

Part of tonight's message..."Even God tithed, cause he gave His first fruits, His Son"

and (concerning tithing) "taking care of the financial things of "the church" takes priority over the things of the home".

I've heard it all before..."If u haven't tithed, u not only need to start right away, but u need to back pay back all those years u didn't since u got in church".

On and on and on...

I realize this isnt about tithing, but forgive the "whining"....just picked this thread to get a bit if it off my chest.

Come on preachers put your head in the book. Put Nehemiah 8:8 into practice and cease this cracker jack buffoonery in the name of the Lord. Preach the Word not gobbly gook, you steal the words of God from His people with this bologna.

[Nitehawk013]

Not surprised Shag. The preacher even pulled the fallacious first fruits are the same as tithing nonsense.

First fruits = an offering fromt he first of the harvest.
Tithes = the tenth part or the tenth animal to pass under the rod.

You couldn't TITHE unless you actually HAD 10 of something so you could give a tenth. If you had 5 sheep born, you didn't cut one in half to give a tenth to the Lord.

I swear these tithe preachers are like listening to amateur hour.

[MarieA27]

Just a question, this is just something that I was wondering... For all the people who are against giving tithes and offerings, are you mainly against them because you think that it's against the bible, and feel that they're going to the pastor for a paycheck, or to just make the building better unnecessarily, (ie fancy strobe lights, fog machines, stained windows, tennis courts, etc.,) or are you just against giving them period?

Would you still be against giving tithes, or giving away a lot of your money for the church, if the preacher equally worked hard almost all day, every day continually, naturally and spiritually, and if NONE of the money that was taken up from the congregation went into his pocket, but ALL unto the Lord, to carry the work of the Lord over to the people, as in outreach, everything to get the word out to the people, used to get the gospel out to the people, used for ministering to people in their homes, used for missionary work done in the jail houses, ministering to people in the hospitals, in the convalescent homes, to people on the street, building places for people to go or to come to, to help out the desolate, and many other such things?

And if the preacher was doing this, and was letting everyone know and see where the money was going, by having everything published, and if the preacher didn't live in no fancy home or such, but lived plainly?


I was just wondering this, that's all...

[Esaias]

And where the music is concerned, have you tried singing acapella while the church down the street has a full music program. A visitor goes to the musical church and then attends the one that is struggling with sound tracks or accapella (how do you spell that word?). Where do you think they are going to go?

Well, I guess if there's no power of God in the meeting, people will go where the music entertains them the most...

My suggestion is this. Until you get your church over the top;

Jesus isn't coming back for your church, He's coming back for His church.

[The Lemon]

Shag - Seriously!!?? Someone actually preached about tithing in that fashion? Can't say I have heard any of those approaches - whoa!

Giving is a heart issue, just like consecration is - you can't legislate it, even though many try.

I still say if you are a Christian and have issues giving (not just money, but time, talent and etc.) - then there is a heart problem. That said, I can understand the frustration with regards to Biblical inaccuracy.

It is sad that money is such a touchy subject. I would have to admit though that if my Pastor went on a rant like Shag posted, I would really have to try to meet and talk with him - that is so off base it is ridiculous.

[Originalist]

Just a question, this is just something that I was wondering... For all the people who are against giving tithes and offerings, are you mainly against them because you think that it's against the bible, and feel that they're going to the pastor for a paycheck, or to just make the building better unnecessarily, (ie fancy strobe lights, fog machines, stained windows, tennis courts, etc.,) or are you just against giving them period?

Would you still be against giving tithes, or giving away a lot of your money for the church, if the preacher equally worked hard almost all day, every day continually, naturally and spiritually, and if NONE of the money that was taken up from the congregation went into his pocket, but ALL unto the Lord, to carry the work of the Lord over to the people, as in outreach, everything to get the word out to the people, used to get the gospel out to the people, used for ministering to people in their homes, used for missionary work done in the jail houses, ministering to people in the hospitals, in the convalescent homes, to people on the street, building places for people to go or to come to, to help out the desolate, and many other such things?

And if the preacher was doing this, and was letting everyone know and see where the money was going, by having everything published, and if the preacher didn't live in no fancy home or such, but lived plainly?


I was just wondering this, that's all...

I'm not against someone giving 10% of their income to their church. Nor am I against a portion of offerings going to support pastors. Pastoring is a tough job and most pastors are probably underpayed. Let me be very clear about that.

What I am against is the doctrine that teaches New Testament believers are required scripturally to give 10% of their income to the church. That teaching simply is not found in scripture and is a false doctrine.

[shag]

Shag - Seriously!!?? Someone actually preached about tithing in that fashion? Can't say I have heard any of those approaches - whoa!

Giving is a heart issue, just like consecration is - you can't legislate it, even though many try.

I still say if you are a Christian and have issues giving (not just money, but time, talent and etc.) - then there is a heart problem. That said, I can understand the frustration with regards to Biblical inaccuracy.

It is sad that money is such a touchy subject. I would have to admit though that if my Pastor went on a rant like Shag posted, I would really have to try to meet and talk with him - that is so off base it is ridiculous.



Wasn't my pastor that preach that. It was a close friend evangelist that my pastor invited. Last year he came through preaching that stuff, told everybody to tap theirselves on the chest and say my man of God, referring to our pastor. He was being sure that we thought very highly of our pastor I suppose. The recent sermon he said that he was asked by the pastor to preach the same sermon he did when he came last time.
Six weeks ago I loaned a family from our church $1500, to keep them from losing their house, and they are firm believers in tithing. At this point, I know that they are questioning where all the money is going to, if not even a little bit questioning the New Testament doctrine necessity tithing. Where I attend, offerings records are open to members but tithes money is not.
I have a lot more I would like to say, especially in regards to Marie's post, but I don't have time.

[n david]

I'm on staff of the church I've attended for the past 6 years, and haven't given tithes. I've given offerings, but haven't given the weekly 10% tithe. My Pastor has given messages on giving and has talked about tithes probably less than 10 times in those 6 years. He's stated each time that a person's family and responsibilities should come first. He doesn't believe it's God's will to skip a house or car payment or other bills and necessities in order to give. He encourages giving an offering more than a weekly or monthly tithes. I've never heard him condemn or chastise anyone for not giving. As I said, I've been part of the staff since the church was just starting and haven't given a weekly/monthly 10% tithe. The only times he's "pushed" for a good offering is when it's for the local battered women's shelter we support, an elementary school we raise funds to donate backpacks filled with notebooks, pencils, and other school supplies, the annual drive to raise funds to donate Payless Shoe gift cards to the school for one's in need, or to support a young lady who's an RN and leads a small group into Mexico to small villages and towns to care for the poor and to share the Gospel.

[Originalist]

I'm on staff of the church I've attended for the past 6 years, and haven't given tithes. I've given offerings, but haven't given the weekly 10% tithe. My Pastor has given messages on giving and has talked about tithes probably less than 10 times in those 6 years. He's stated each time that a person's family and responsibilities should come first. He doesn't believe it's God's will to skip a house or car payment or other bills and necessities in order to give. He encourages giving an offering more than a weekly or monthly tithes. I've never heard him condemn or chastise anyone for not giving. As I said, I've been part of the staff since the church was just starting and haven't given a weekly/monthly 10% tithe. The only times he's "pushed" for a good offering is when it's for the local battered women's shelter we support, an elementary school we raise funds to donate backpacks filled with notebooks, pencils, and other school supplies, the annual drive to raise funds to donate Payless Shoe gift cards to the school for one's in need, or to support a young lady who's an RN and leads a small group into Mexico to small villages and towns to care for the poor and to share the Gospel.


Your pastor is teaching people to rob God!! Or at least that is what some would say. God bless your pastor. I think God might be trying to stir something within all of us. We feel that inner turmoil and we know God is NOT pleased with this false teaching. At the same time, we don't want to be like bulls in a china shop with this. May God grant us wisdom.

[Real Realism]

Please, please don't take this as "horn tooting" - but to set the stage, I do give tithes, offerings, missions and outside of my church, donate to a local charity, as well.

But I'm extremely bothered by tithes preaching. I find it unBiblical, especially when every church I've ever been in that's preached it, has done so with the fallacy of using Malachi to put a "curse" on anyone who doesn't tithe. "If you don't want to tithe, that's your business, but don't come running to me when God curses you." It turns my stomach.

My biggest issue with it is that it's unBiblical.

My second issue with it is that every church I've been in has not had a set "charitable" fund. Now, certainly they've been willing to help people out financially on a case-by-case basis. But there's no regular programming to help the poor, widows, hungry, naked. And that really bothers me, which is one reason why I started donating to this charity outside of the church years ago.

I've heard preachers say that people have come to them asking for money to help with some financial crisis, and then they ask, "We'll help, but let's take a look at your expenses." And then they see a cable bill on the list and tell them to shut of cable to help save money. And - while financially, I completely agree that cable, monthly cell plan (would go to prepaid), internet package, etc - would be some of the first things out if I were in that situation...the spirit with which it comes across...that there's somehow a requirement you have to meet before we'll have compassion on you...rubs me the wrong way, when I hear Jesus tell us that "as much as you've done to the least of these, you've done to me."

(Wow, God continues to convict me in this area of my life. Just typing this post has given me another wave of compassion and resolve to find more avenues to help minister to the hungry, needy, and broken in our community. God let me see people through your eyes.)

[n david]

I went to Bible Study at church last night, hoping to hear something deep and new; some fresh revelation or theological insight. Man, can you believe I sat down and my Pastor said he would be spending the next few Sundays and Wednesdays going through the Acts of the Apostles. And then he used Acts 1:8 for a text of the first part of his study last night.

:foottap :ranting

I've heard this verse and that kind of message probably a thousand times before! I've already read through Acts several times; in fact, just completed reading through Acts again a few months ago. I'm not sure I'll even go to church the next few weeks during this series. I've heard it a thousand times before. I'll probably just stay home and listen to the Bible Answer man online, or find some other place that will give me what I want to hear.

:nod

:sly

[n david]

But there's no regular programming to help the poor, widows, hungry, naked.

You have naked people at your church!?! :covereyes

:toofunny

[Real Realism]

lol - or you could play angry birds while he teaches. That's always a popular one. Or whatever the new app the kids are playing now-a-days?

[Real Realism]

You have naked people at your church!?! :covereyes

:toofunny

:shocked: Touché. I guarantee if someone showed up naked to church, that's one area of ministry we'd be quick to help them out in real quick.

[n david]

lol - or you could play angry birds while he teaches. That's always a popular one. Or whatever the new app the kids are playing now-a-days?
LoL Or I could just scoot down in the seat and sleep. There's a man who comes to church every Sunday and Wednesday and sits in the second row; then he'll put his cap over his face, slouch way down in his seat and appears to fall asleep. Every now and then he'll start to slide to the side, then kind of straighten himself, peek out of the cap and go back to sleep. :lol

[n david]

:shocked: Touché. I guarantee if someone showed up naked to church, that's one area of ministry we'd be quick to help them out in real quick.
When I was just a toddler, my father was having a series of special services (revival services), and they held a special concert down at the university one of the nights. A couple students caused quite the commotion by streaking through the outdoor area where this was being held. Then some minister got up to testify and said, "Bless God, if another guy comes streaking through here, I'll jump up and grab him by the organ....I mean that musical instrument over there!"

[Esaias]

What I am against is the doctrine that teaches New Testament believers are required scripturally to give 10% of their income to the church. That teaching simply is not found in scripture and is a false doctrine.

It would have been false doctrine under the Old Covenant, too.

[Esaias]

There's a man who comes to church every Sunday and Wednesday and sits in the second row; then he'll put his cap over his face, slouch way down in his seat and appears to fall asleep. Every now and then he'll start to slide to the side, then kind of straighten himself, peek out of the cap and go back to sleep. :lol

Brother, I am not picking on you or your church. I don't know how to say this without coming across the wrong way, I hope you take this the right way...

But...

How can a person just nod off to sleep in a Pentecostal church?

I realize Eutychus (sp?) fell asleep while Paul was preaching, but consider Paul preached until midnight. The idea being he was quite long winded that night due to him having to leave the next day and only God knew if he would ever be back.

My point is, in the short time most church services last (1-2 hours??) how is it possible for a person to just go to sleep, in a Pentecostal meeting?

Well, I think I know the answer, but ... doesn't it indicate we are missing something?

Again, I hope you don't take it the wrong way, I am not trying to pick on your church, it's just that it seems to me that we are becoming less truly Pentecostal with each couple of years...

[Real Realism]

Come on now. There are people that can fall asleep within 30 seconds of relaxing. (There have been times in my life where I could sleep almost anywhere, including a busy college hallway.) I don't think you can pass judgement on a whole church because once the preacher gets up and starts speaking for 30-45 (and in some churches 60+) minutes, he nods off. Now, he should certainly try to exhibit more self-control. And I laugh and wonder what he thinks the point is to coming to church, if he uses it as a place to catnap...but - to borrow the popular phrase from dear Cindy - good grief!

[Esaias]

I don't think you can pass judgement on a whole church

I knew what I posted would be taken the wrong way.

[Nitehawk013]

I went to Bible Study at church last night, hoping to hear something deep and new; some fresh revelation or theological insight. Man, can you believe I sat down and my Pastor said he would be spending the next few Sundays and Wednesdays going through the Acts of the Apostles. And then he used Acts 1:8 for a text of the first part of his study last night.

:foottap :ranting

I've heard this verse and that kind of message probably a thousand times before! I've already read through Acts several times; in fact, just completed reading through Acts again a few months ago. I'm not sure I'll even go to church the next few weeks during this series. I've heard it a thousand times before. I'll probably just stay home and listen to the Bible Answer man online, or find some other place that will give me what I want to hear.

:nod

:sly

Awww..thats cute. I see what you did there.

Of course, you likely know that is not at all what I meant.

However, let's go along for a moment. Your Pastor is teachign on the Acts of the Apostles starting with 1:8. So its about power to be witnesses. SO say for the next coupel weeks he stays on Acts 1:8. Then in a month he preaches again on Acts 1:8. Then a month or so after that...Acts 1:8. And a week or two after that...Acts 1:8. Then a month or two later....Acts 1:8 again. Oh and in between those sermons where it is the main subject, he manages to fit it into his other sermons as well. So You are hearing Acts 1:8 just about every service. And this continues for months, even years.

You really think that is acceptable and that we should all just sit and eat it up? That hearing the same thing over an dover that often is really goign to edify and build up everyone? You can't understand that eventually those who have heard it over and over might start wanting somethign different and new?

Do you eat the same meal every night of the week? You really think that a person will still enjoy and be satisfied with a cheeseburger if he has to eat a cheeseburger every single time he sits down to dinner?

Maybe you can't relate to it b/c it doesn't happen in your perfect little church, but I assure you there are plenty of us in churches where we get a steady diet of the same few topics non stop and it is, whether you accept it or not, spiritual malnutrition.

[n david]

Brother, I am not picking on you or your church. I don't know how to say this without coming across the wrong way, I hope you take this the right way...

But...

How can a person just nod off to sleep in a Pentecostal church?

I realize Eutychus (sp?) fell asleep while Paul was preaching, but consider Paul preached until midnight. The idea being he was quite long winded that night due to him having to leave the next day and only God knew if he would ever be back.

My point is, in the short time most church services last (1-2 hours??) how is it possible for a person to just go to sleep, in a Pentecostal meeting?

Well, I think I know the answer, but ... doesn't it indicate we are missing something?

Again, I hope you don't take it the wrong way, I am not trying to pick on your church, it's just that it seems to me that we are becoming less truly Pentecostal with each couple of years...
No offense taken. I have no idea how this guy falls asleep. I lead the music and it gets loud. We do a mix of old congregational songs and newer contemporary and Gospel genre songs. People clap, sing, dance and jump up and down. My Pastor is not a screamer, but he's not a soft-spoken, boring teacher either. He usually preaches about 45 minutes, sometimes less, but rarely over 45 minutes.

As to whether the church is missing something, I don't believe it is. We are a Pentecostal church (Independent). We baptized a teen this past weekend and regularly see people come to the front during the songs and at the end of the message for prayer and to worship.

I do know this guy has mentioned feeling at peace while at church. He's spent time in prison a few years ago and came from a hard life of gangs and drugs. He's tatted all up and sometimes can appear a little intimidating. But God's worked on him, even though he usually falls asleep in church.

[Real Realism]

What way did you intend it to be taken?

[MarieA27]

I went to Bible Study at church last night, hoping to hear something deep and new; some fresh revelation or theological insight. Man, can you believe I sat down and my Pastor said he would be spending the next few Sundays and Wednesdays going to the Acts of the Apostles. And then he used Acts 1:8 for a text of the first part of his study last night.

:foottap :ranting

I've heard this verse and that kind of message probably a thousand times before! I've already read through Acts several times; in fact, just completed reading through Acts again a few months ago. I'm not sure I'll even go to church the next few weeks during this series. I've heard it a thousand times before. I'll probably just stay home and listen to the Bible Answer man online, or find some other place that will give me what I want to hear.

:nod

:sly

Would it really be wrong if the preacher almost always included in his messages the plan of salvation (Acts 2:38, baptism, and the holy ghost), along with Jesus being God, if that is what God leads him to preach about? The people in the congregation aren't always members, often times they can be people that are just wondering from church to church, or people that could have been led there for some reason or another...

[houston]

"Your church is missing something, but don't be offended that I said that..."


BAHAHAHA

[n david]

Awww..thats cute. I see what you did there.

Of course, you likely know that is not at all what I meant.

However, let's go along for a moment. Your Pastor is teachign on the Acts of the Apostles starting with 1:8. So its about power to be witnesses. SO say for the next coupel weeks he stays on Acts 1:8. Then in a month he preaches again on Acts 1:8. Then a month or so after that...Acts 1:8. And a week or two after that...Acts 1:8. Then a month or two later....Acts 1:8 again. Oh and in between those sermons where it is the main subject, he manages to fit it into his other sermons as well. So You are hearing Acts 1:8 just about every service. And this continues for months, even years.

You really think that is acceptable and that we should all just sit and eat it up? That hearing the same thing over an dover that often is really goign to edify and build up everyone? You can't understand that eventually those who have heard it over and over might start wanting somethign different and new?

Do you eat the same meal every night of the week? You really think that a person will still enjoy and be satisfied with a cheeseburger if he has to eat a cheeseburger every single time he sits down to dinner?

Maybe you can't relate to it b/c it doesn't happen in your perfect little church, but I assure you there are plenty of us in churches where we get a steady diet of the same few topics non stop and it is, whether you accept it or not, spiritual malnutrition.
:lol I was just messing with you.

While I'm sure you're exaggerating here and not even your Pastor does what you've described, to answer the question, yes, using the same verse over and over and over every. single. message. would get old.

[n david]

"Your church is missing something, but don't be offended that I said that..."


BAHAHAHA
:toofunny

[Esaias]

No offense taken. I have no idea how this guy falls asleep. I lead the music and it gets loud. We do a mix of old congregational songs and newer contemporary and Gospel genre songs. People clap, sing, dance and jump up and down. My Pastor is not a screamer, but he's not a soft-spoken, boring teacher either. He usually preaches about 45 minutes, sometimes less, but rarely over 45 minutes.

As to whether the church is missing something, I don't believe it is. We are a Pentecostal church (Independent). We baptized a teen this past weekend and regularly see people come to the front during the songs and at the end of the message for prayer and to worship.

I do know this guy has mentioned feeling at peace while at church. He's spent time in prison a few years ago and came from a hard life of gangs and drugs. He's tatted all up and sometimes can appear a little intimidating. But God's worked on him, even though he usually falls asleep in church.

I understand.

And I am glad you did not take offense at what I said, cause I was not intending that. I just did not know how else to put it.

:thumbsup

As for the guy saying he feels at peace while in church, it's probably the only time in his recent life he feels he can actually sleep without having to be 'on guard'.

I'd rather him falling asleep every meeting than have no peace. He apparently knows where to find peace - among the people of God.

That's a good thing.

[Esaias]

Awww..thats cute. I see what you did there.

Of course, you likely know that is not at all what I meant.

However, let's go along for a moment. Your Pastor is teachign on the Acts of the Apostles starting with 1:8. So its about power to be witnesses. SO say for the next coupel weeks he stays on Acts 1:8. Then in a month he preaches again on Acts 1:8. Then a month or so after that...Acts 1:8. And a week or two after that...Acts 1:8. Then a month or two later....Acts 1:8 again. Oh and in between those sermons where it is the main subject, he manages to fit it into his other sermons as well. So You are hearing Acts 1:8 just about every service. And this continues for months, even years.

You really think that is acceptable and that we should all just sit and eat it up? That hearing the same thing over an dover that often is really goign to edify and build up everyone? You can't understand that eventually those who have heard it over and over might start wanting somethign different and new?

Do you eat the same meal every night of the week? You really think that a person will still enjoy and be satisfied with a cheeseburger if he has to eat a cheeseburger every single time he sits down to dinner?

Maybe you can't relate to it b/c it doesn't happen in your perfect little church, but I assure you there are plenty of us in churches where we get a steady diet of the same few topics non stop and it is, whether you accept it or not, spiritual malnutrition.

Maybe the preacher is trying to get the people to understand they need the power of God...?

God has been known to 'nag' people, you know...

[n david]

Would it really be wrong if the preacher almost always included in his messages the plan of salvation (Acts 2:38, baptism, and the holy ghost), along with Jesus being God, if that is what God leads him to preach about? The people in the congregation aren't always members, often times they can be people that are just wondering from church to church, or people that could have been led there for some reason or another...

I was just going to mention this. Has anyone noticed a common theme in their Pastor's messages; or in their own messages?

I went through the notes of messages I've preached and lessons I've taught and didn't realize that 90% of the messages and lessons have been on God's love and His grace. I haven't used the same verse on these messages, but each one is about God's love and grace. From appealing for sinners to come to God, to encouraging saints who have gone through tough times and storms in life...for me it's all about God's love and His grace.

Years ago a friend of mine was telling me about the explosive growth his church was experiencing. They went from 150 to 250 to 500 to 800 in just a matter of a year or so. They renovated and expanded the existing building and eventually built a new sanctuary to seat over 1,000 people.

I asked what they were doing? Were they doing community free give-aways, did they leave the UPC or relax their dress standards? He said no, every Sunday morning was geared for evangelism and every message ended at the cross. He told me there were different titles and different texts, but they were all about the Gospel (death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ) and salvation - and people responded to it.

[Jason B]

Just a question, this is just something that I was wondering... For all the people who are against giving tithes and offerings, are you mainly against them because you think that it's against the bible, and feel that they're going to the pastor for a paycheck, or to just make the building better unnecessarily, (ie fancy strobe lights, fog machines, stained windows, tennis courts, etc.,) or are you just against giving them period?

Would you still be against giving tithes, or giving away a lot of your money for the church, if the preacher equally worked hard almost all day, every day continually, naturally and spiritually, and if NONE of the money that was taken up from the congregation went into his pocket, but ALL unto the Lord, to carry the work of the Lord over to the people, as in outreach, everything to get the word out to the people, used to get the gospel out to the people, used for ministering to people in their homes, used for missionary work done in the jail houses, ministering to people in the hospitals, in the convalescent homes, to people on the street, building places for people to go or to come to, to help out the desolate, and many other such things?

And if the preacher was doing this, and was letting everyone know and see where the money was going, by having everything published, and if the preacher didn't live in no fancy home or such, but lived plainly?

I was just wondering this, that's all...

1. I don't think any one who is against tithing on this board is against giving. That's a common misnomer (tithing=giving)

2. I'm a preacher and I don't believe in tithing money.

3. It has nothing to do with how the money is spent, it all has to do with the scripture. 8% can be abused and wasted just as well as 10%.

[Abiding Now]

I love to tithe.


:happydance

[Real Realism]

1. I don't think any one who is against tithing on this board is against giving. That's a common misnomer (tithing=giving)

2. I'm a preacher and I don't believe in tithing money.

3. It has nothing to do with how the money is spent, it all has to do with the scripture. 8% can be abused and wasted just as well as 10%.

That. Yes.

Though, I will say the way I've seen tithes used in most churches is bothersome. Tithes in OT weren't solely to pay for the homes, food, and lifestyle of the priests. (Let alone the fact of trying to translate that to NT doesn't work on so many levels.). But still, you're right regardless. It's more about the mandate for a set percentage on which there's only twisted Scriptural basis.

[thaddaeus417]

I think you need to man/woman up! Not every word that comes across a platform (gasp) is for you. It is a just in time word or message for someone else and your wasting valuable brain power thinking about it. God's ways and thoughts are higher than ours, what you might not like may be a help to someone else.

As N.A. Urshan would explain, the church is Noah's ark, it's full of animals and stench. Or you can go out into the storm and die.

[Real Realism]

Actually, many of us...no, let me speak for myself...I'm personally reacting to words that actually do not necessarily apply directly to "me" and my family, but I still find them harmful to those whom they "may" apply to. Guilting people into behaving the way you want them to, over issues that are personal, not sinful, is alienating and ultimately detrimental to church growth.

Getting people to show up more because they're criticized when they don't isn't the same as getting them to show up more because you're ministering to them in practical and uplifting ways. Getting people to give more because they're afraid of being cursed isn't the same as giving them opportunity to give because they are so touched and invested in the vision.

(But, yes, I agree that showing up isn't all about hearing something new. Sometimes showing up is about my place in ministering to others there, by greeting, talking, praying. However, should I not be there for whatever reason, there's no need to resort to scare tactics so I don't dare miss...sometimes there are other things going on in people's lives.)