Writing a letter to my pastor

[Originalist]

Most of you are aware of the decision my wife and I are wrestling with on wether or not to leave our church to begin assisting a small, struggling church nearby.

I recently shared all the "logical" reasons for such a move, how it could be beneficial to the struggling church and to my family. But of course i also shared concerning other "pressures" of late that have expedited this decision.

My pastor is a very busy man. Besides pastoring, he is also our District Superintendent, and he is on the General Board. He is gone a good bit. Before or after church never seems to be a good time to catch him. So i am considering sending him our "proposal" in letter or email form, asking him to review the info at his leizure, and then talking to us personally about it after he has had time to assimilate the information.

Do you think this approach is acceptable?

[Esaias]

If he doesn't have time to talk to you, then do you really have time to talk to him?

[Jermyn Davidson]

No.

Don't run away from this difficult situation. It will only that much stronger of vessel for use by The Master if you learn this lesson now. Learn it now, pass the test, and graduate to the next level.

[Jermyn Davidson]

They are both able and should be willing to MAKE the time for each other.

[n david]

Just send him a text..... :sly

[Originalist]

Brothers, it is not a question of running away. It is a question of saving him time, so that if we do have to talk to him before or after a service, he will already have assimilated the information. Thus we can cut right to the chase.
Otherwise i will have to rush. He will have to rush. etc

[n david]

My pastor is a very busy man. Besides pastoring, he is also our District Superintendent, and he is on the General Board. He is gone a good bit. Before or after church never seems to be a good time to catch him. So i am considering sending him our "proposal" in letter or email form, asking him to review the info at his leizure, and then talking to us personally about it after he has had time to assimilate the information.

Do you think this approach is acceptable?
While I think it is a good approach, considering his schedule or lack of availability, it might also be harder on you when both of you finally meet to talk. You wrote that the letter would ask that he review the info at his leisure and then talk with you once he has had some time to assimilate the information. That could be risky for you.

[Originalist]

While I think it is a good approach, considering his schedule or lack of availability, it might also be harder on you when both of you finally meet to talk. You wrote that the letter would ask that he review the info at his leisure and then talk with you once he has had some time to assimilate the information. That could be risky for you.

True.

[Ferd]

be careful how you word things. your emotions dont come accross when you write, and such a note will put him in a defensive position when reading.


I would also not make the letter long and drawn out. Hit the high points, and insure your "tone" is concilitory.

[Real Realism]

I recommend having someone you trust read it in advance of your sending it to him. They can tell you objectively if your tone hits right and/or if your words might be perceived in a way you do not intend.

(That is, IF, you go the letter route. I think it has its pros and cons.)

[Timmy]

Dear Pastor,

It's been real.

Love,

Originalist

[stephenroehm]

I would recommend that you try to call him and schedule a face-to-face first. You know he is busy but your assumption that he won't have time is leading you to go to a more impersonal approach which increases the possibility he will perceive it as disrespectful. Besides, communicating clearly with your pastor seems to be very important to you and you probably don't want to second-guess if you could have done things differently/better in the future.

[Sister Alvear]

I would talk with him...no matter how busy he is he is your pastor and he has an obligation to meet with you unless he says he does not have time...if that be the case then in my way of thinking send him a nice card saying you were sorry he could not meet with you and inform him and thank him for being your pastor...try to leave on the best terms possible...

[houston]

No. Don't run away from this difficult situation. It will only that much stronger of vessel for use by The Master if you learn this lesson now. Learn it now, pass the test, and graduate to the next level.What kind of ........ is this? You don't know if he should stay or move on.

He needs to prayerfully make a decision that is best for him and his family.

[houston]

I hope I am wrong but I see the pastor glancing at the letter before he tosses it into the garbage bin. Then preaching about rebellious people who like to church hop.

[navygoat1998]

I hope I am wrong but I see the pastor glancing at the letter before he tosses it into the garbage bin. Then preaching about rebellious people who like to church hop.

And you know this!!!!! After we left our pastor preached on spiritual authority for 6 months.....Glory!!!! :woot

Nothing like being sermon fodder :happydance

[Esaias]

Breaking up is hard to do.

Nobody likes getting a 'Dear John' letter.

[navygoat1998]

Breaking up is hard to do.

Nobody likes getting a 'Dear John' letter.

:heeheehee

[Michael The Disciple]

If he cant find time for the saints he is no Pastor at all. A Pastor is not a sermon machine. He is supposed to be a SHEPHERD. If he has no time to fellowship the saints who want fellowship he is a hireling.

[DaveC519]

I would talk with him...no matter how busy he is he is your pastor and he has an obligation to meet with you unless he says he does not have time...if that be the case then in my way of thinking send him a nice card saying you were sorry he could not meet with you and inform him and thank him for being your pastor...try to leave on the best terms possible...
This is wisdom in love... as we've come to expect from Sis. Alvear. :)

[houston]

If he cant find time for the saints he is no Pastor at all. A Pastor is not a sermon machine. He is supposed to be a SHEPHERD. If he has no time to fellowship the saints who want fellowship he is a hireling.we don't agree on much...

[ILG]

I think face to face is best if you really feel you owe him some sort of explanation.

[Jermyn Davidson]

What kind of ........ is this? You don't know if he should stay or move on.

He needs to prayerfully make a decision that is best for him and his family.

You are right in that I don't know if he should stay or move. The Lord knows if he should stay or move.

This brother knows what I think and realizes it is what I think, and he knows that I didn't haphazardly formulate the opinions I have expressed to him publicly and privately.

You know I am not a haphazardly-giving-unscriptural-advice kind of guy. You know I take certain things quite seriously, especially things I have went through or am going through.

I know that there is a right way and a wrong way to go about doing things. Doing the right thing the right way leaves very little room for doubt, second-guessing, and regret.

[Abiding Now]

I wouldn't write a letter, email or text, but would let him know that it was NECESSARY that you personally speak with him, if he refuses, then move on and let your new pastor deal with him.

[Margies3]

I would talk with him...no matter how busy he is he is your pastor and he has an obligation to meet with you unless he says he does not have time...if that be the case then in my way of thinking send him a nice card saying you were sorry he could not meet with you and inform him and thank him for being your pastor...try to leave on the best terms possible...

:highfive

[CC1]

I think face to face is best if you really feel you owe him some sort of explanation.

I agree with Algae. The letter is a bad idea.

[thaddaeus417]

Most of you are aware of the decision my wife and I are wrestling with on wether or not to leave our church to begin assisting a small, struggling church nearby.

I recently shared all the "logical" reasons for such a move, how it could be beneficial to the struggling church and to my family. But of course i also shared concerning other "pressures" of late that have expedited this decision.

My pastor is a very busy man. Besides pastoring, he is also our District Superintendent, and he is on the General Board. He is gone a good bit. Before or after church never seems to be a good time to catch him. So i am considering sending him our "proposal" in letter or email form, asking him to review the info at his leizure, and then talking to us personally about it after he has had time to assimilate the information.

Do you think this approach is acceptable?

First thing first, I see a lack of confirmation, are you just a spiritual teenager experiencing friction with Dad?

[houston]

First thing first, I see a lack of confirmation, are you just a spiritual teenager experiencing friction with Dad?Are you stupid?

[seguidordejesus]

I would send him an email saying it's important that you speak to him personally, perhaps mentioning the topic of "concerning our church membership", and ask when he is available within x time frame. Would not just do it by letter.

[woodstock]

From my experience it is far better to have a face-to-face talk. Surely if you request a meeting, your pastor will make time for you. You should at least make the effort. If he refuses to make time for you he isn't much of a pastor, and you are certainly justified in leaving.

It's too easy for words on paper to get twisted out of context. I've seen situations where portions of a letter were read aloud from the pulpit and the writer was not there to defend himself... of course, your spoken words can be misconstrued also.

[Michael Phelps]

Most of you are aware of the decision my wife and I are wrestling with on wether or not to leave our church to begin assisting a small, struggling church nearby.

I recently shared all the "logical" reasons for such a move, how it could be beneficial to the struggling church and to my family. But of course i also shared concerning other "pressures" of late that have expedited this decision.

My pastor is a very busy man. Besides pastoring, he is also our District Superintendent, and he is on the General Board. He is gone a good bit. Before or after church never seems to be a good time to catch him. So i am considering sending him our "proposal" in letter or email form, asking him to review the info at his leizure, and then talking to us personally about it after he has had time to assimilate the information.

Do you think this approach is acceptable?

Just write a Facebook post on his wall :)

JUST KIDDING........

[Esaias]

Just write a Facebook post on his wall :)

JUST KIDDING........

lol

Where have you been hiding?

[ILG]

If your pastor doesn't make time for you, you know for a fact you owe him nothing.

[crakjak]

Brothers, it is not a question of running away. It is a question of saving him time, so that if we do have to talk to him before or after a service, he will already have assimilated the information. Thus we can cut right to the chase.
Otherwise i will have to rush. He will have to rush. etc

A well written, respectful letter is appropriate, you can express yourself fully without being intimidated. It could very well help your pastor in his growth if you can articulate clearly the issues. He may not respond very well to your boldness, but he will remember what you have said, and it could bring change over time in his leadership. Focus on "clear" and "respectful", and honestly say what you have to say.

Then plan on where you go next, because this relationship is not likely to continue, but it is better than just disappearing. JMHO

[crakjak]

From my experience it is far better to have a face-to-face talk. Surely if you request a meeting, your pastor will make time for you. You should at least make the effort. If he refuses to make time for you he isn't much of a pastor, and you are certainly justified in leaving.

It's too easy for words on paper to get twisted out of context. I've seen situations where portions of a letter were read aloud from the pulpit and the writer was not there to defend himself... of course, your spoken words can be misconstrued also.

That is a risk, but if his leadership is consistently bad, others already know how it really is, leadership many times just fool themselves.

[crakjak]

First thing first, I see a lack of confirmation, are you just a spiritual teenager experiencing friction with Dad?

Communication is often difficult between father and son, each having a different viewpoint.

[crakjak]

:highfive

We once had a pastor that would avoid personal meetings like the plague!! So, like I said the written word could help the pastor to grow, respectful, but clear. Pastors are supposed to be servant leaders, and if they cannot communication with those that they serve, then they need to realize it is not there calling and find another vocation. As soon, as possible, because this type of leadership is very harmful.

[crakjak]

Breaking up is hard to do.

Nobody likes getting a 'Dear John' letter.

My recommendation was not a vindictive "Dear John".

[thaddaeus417]

Are you stupid?

Well, yes! But that is beside the point. I actually see the Lord's hand in all this and he should stay.

[houston]

Well, yes! But that is beside the point. I actually see the Lord's hand in all this and he should stay.What you think you see doesn't matter.

[Real Realism]

How could you possibly know if he should stay - you don't know him, his pastor, or the situation in intimate details. Not a single one of us can know what he should do - that is between him and his wife as they pray over the situation. Sounds like the decision is made and he's looking for guidance on the most gracious way to break the news.

[houston]

Yep

[Praxeas]

How about a youtubd video? :heeheehee

[Real Realism]

Now I'm picturing a flash mob dancing and singing...

[seekerman]

My suggestion is to try a face to face and if that doesn't work out, just leave. The letter idea isn't a good idea IMO. If you don't have a relationship that's good enough for a friendly talk, if he doesn't value you any more than than that, there is no need for a letter.

[RandyWayne]

Might I suggest, in order to leave no room for doubt that there is no more pastor/saint relationship, that you use his first name. Lets say his name is Robert. I would start the letter with "Hey Bob, just a quick note to tell you that. . . ." If it was Richard you could start it with something like "Gee Dick, things haven't been working out too well lately."

:slaphappy

[MarcBee]

If this pastor hasn't or doesn't make it plain and obvious that he is available to at least talk with anyone who has tried to give their life's blood--time, money, and demonstrable effort--to the cause, then you never had a "marriage" in the first place.
:texasgranny

(PS, this thought is prefaced with "If.")

[seekerman]

Might I suggest, in order to leave no room for doubt that there is no more pastor/saint relationship, that you use his first name. Lets say his name is Robert. I would start the letter with "Hey Bob, just a quick note to tell you that. . . ." If it was Richard you could start it with something like "Gee Dick, things haven't been working out too well lately."

:slaphappy

LOL! This. Preachers love it when you call them by their first name. :)

Bob's church or Dick's church just doesn't have that special ring to it though.

[Originalist]

First thing first, I see a lack of confirmation, are you just a spiritual teenager experiencing friction with Dad?

I am 48 years old. I came to the Lord and received the Holy Ghost in 1980, just 2 weeks after my 15th birthday. I have been at this church for three years and started attending here due to a geographical relocation. I was a member of the church where I previously attended for 17 years. I have a long way to go, but I passed spiritual adolescence long ago.

It is interesting that your default position is to defend the pastor. Why is that? Why do you think I should stay?

Have you read my other threads that describe what my family has been through, and recent comments of my pastor?

[ILG]

Might I suggest, in order to leave no room for doubt that there is no more pastor/saint relationship, that you use his first name. Lets say his name is Robert. I would start the letter with "Hey Bob, just a quick note to tell you that. . . ." If it was Richard you could start it with something like "Gee Dick, things haven't been working out too well lately."

:slaphappy

My husband and I call our old pastor by his first name when we are discussing anything about him. ;)

[thaddaeus417]

I am 48 years old. I came to the Lord and received the Holy Ghost in 1980, just 2 weeks after my 15th birthday. I have been at this church for three years and started attending here due to a geographical relocation. I was a member of the church where I previously attended for 17 years. I have a long way to go, but I passed spiritual adolescence long ago.

It is interesting that your default position is to defend the pastor. Why is that? Why do you think I should stay?

Have you read my other threads that describe what my family has been through, and recent comments of my pastor?

I am not defending him and I do believe what you have said is the truth. Why should you stay? I just don't want to be another guy who tells someone I do not know what they want to hear.

So, thinking about how horribly Saul treated David, he (David) humbled himself and endured the mistreatment. He did what was right in the Lord's eye and as his reward for being faithful was that he was made King.

[Sabby]

I am 48 years old. I came to the Lord and received the Holy Ghost in 1980, just 2 weeks after my 15th birthday. I have been at this church for three years and started attending here due to a geographical relocation. I was a member of the church where I previously attended for 17 years. I have a long way to go, but I passed spiritual adolescence long ago.

It is interesting that your default position is to defend the pastor. Why is that? Why do you think I should stay?

Have you read my other threads that describe what my family has been through, and recent comments of my pastor?

Brother, I get the impression - correct me if I'm wrong - that your history with said pastor isn't warm. If the feeling is mutual there is NOTHING you will be able to do to prevent being what Navy Goat said you will be: sermon fodder. This in spite of any and everything you have tried to do to toe the line. It's just how the machine works.
I would liken it to the practice of seeking the pastor's "blessing".
Some of the older ones on this forum might remember that as being the only way you could ever leave a local church.
If the pastor suspects that you might be a little "inconsistent" in attendance, or a little "weak on the doctrine", you are suspected of "not tithing" or of being disloyal, there is NOTHING you will be able to do to prevent the backwash from your leaving.
Brother, just follow the leading of the Lord. We are a digitized society, but something like this should be done with face-time: man of God to man of God. If he blows you off, do the same.

Seriously, if God has told you to do something, then DO IT. Don't sit and rot on the pew due to fear, apprehension, or being told you are not "ready". From the sounds of it, you've been "in training" for some time.

[Sabby]

I am 48 years old. I came to the Lord and received the Holy Ghost in 1980, just 2 weeks after my 15th birthday. I have been at this church for three years and started attending here due to a geographical relocation. I was a member of the church where I previously attended for 17 years. I have a long way to go, but I passed spiritual adolescence long ago.

It is interesting that your default position is to defend the pastor. Why is that? Why do you think I should stay?

Have you read my other threads that describe what my family has been through, and recent comments of my pastor?

Brother, I get the impression - correct me if I'm wrong - that your history with said pastor isn't warm. If the feeling is mutual there is NOTHING you will be able to do to prevent being what Navy Goat said you will be: sermon fodder. This in spite of any and everything you have tried to do to toe the line. It's just how the machine works.
I would liken it to the practice of seeking the pastor's "blessing".
Some of the older ones on this forum might remember that as being the only way you could ever leave a local church.
If the pastor suspects that you might be a little "inconsistent" in attendance, or a little "weak on the doctrine", you are suspected of "not tithing" or of being disloyal, there is NOTHING you will be able to do to prevent the backwash from your leaving.
Brother, just follow the leading of the Lord. We are a digitized society, but something like this should be done with face-time: man of God to man of God. If he blows you off, do the same.

Seriously, if God has told you to do something, then DO IT. Don't sit and rot on the pew due to fear, apprehension, or being told you are not "ready". From the sounds of it, you've been "in training" for some time.

[Jermyn Davidson]

His Pastor will not blow him off. That would make this situation too easy.

[houston]

His Pastor will not blow him off. That would make this situation too easy.You do not know that.

[Originalist]

Brother, I get the impression - correct me if I'm wrong - that your history with said pastor isn't warm. If the feeling is mutual there is NOTHING you will be able to do to prevent being what Navy Goat said you will be: sermon fodder. This in spite of any and everything you have tried to do to toe the line. It's just how the machine works.
I would liken it to the practice of seeking the pastor's "blessing".
Some of the older ones on this forum might remember that as being the only way you could ever leave a local church.
If the pastor suspects that you might be a little "inconsistent" in attendance, or a little "weak on the doctrine", you are suspected of "not tithing" or of being disloyal, there is NOTHING you will be able to do to prevent the backwash from your leaving.
Brother, just follow the leading of the Lord. We are a digitized society, but something like this should be done with face-time: man of God to man of God. If he blows you off, do the same.

Seriously, if God has told you to do something, then DO IT. Don't sit and rot on the pew due to fear, apprehension, or being told you are not "ready". From the sounds of it, you've been "in training" for some time.

As far as I know, there has never been any issue between us. Since November of last year, when I started working 7 days a week , he has seemed to become a little distant, and especially in the past month. Now in all fairness, Me only being in one service a week for 5 months, and then out the area for 2 months straight, may have caused him to focus on other areas. Out of sight out of mind. He has never acted confrontational or like a dictator. I choose to give him grace and will do so even if our "talk" does not go well. I will choose to believe God for any wrong perceptions to be cleared up on either one of our parts, and I will prayerfully consider any constructive criticism he may offer.

[Sabby]

As far as I know, there has never been any issue between us. Since November of last year, when I started working 7 days a week , he has seemed to become a little distant, and especially in the past month. Now in all fairness, Me only being in one service a week for 5 months, and then out the area for 2 months straight, may have caused him to focus on other areas. Out of sight out of mind. He has never acted confrontational or like a dictator. I choose to give him grace and will do so even if our "talk" does not go well. I will choose to believe God for any wrong perceptions to be cleared up on either one of our parts, and I will prayerfully consider any constructive criticism he may offer.

If he is a godly man he will be entreated and will have a good spirit. Face-time is the best "method", imo, but to each his own.

God bless you in the Kingdom!

[Jermyn Davidson]

You do not know that.

99.9999999% sure that the Pastor that had enough confidence in him to support his Missionary endeavors not even a year ago will not blow that same Missionary off.

All Pastors are human. Most Pastors care for their members and the leaders they have established within their congregations.

[Steve Epley]

Just an observation most folks advising don't have a pastor and some do not even attend an Apostolic church. Remember what David said about the counsel of the ungodly.

[johnny44]

I am not defending him and I do believe what you have said is the truth. Why should you stay? I just don't want to be another guy who tells someone I do not know what they want to hear.

So, thinking about how horribly Saul treated David, he (David) humbled himself and endured the mistreatment. He did what was right in the Lord's eye and as his reward for being faithful was that he was made King.The anointed of God fled from Gods anointed.

[navygoat1998]

Just an observation most folks advising don't have a pastor and some do not even attend an Apostolic church. Remember what David said about the counsel of the ungodly.

I have a pastor, thankfully I don't attend an Apostolic church, so for that reason I have not offered my advice.

When my wife and I left, we sat down with our old pastor and told him we were leaving and told him why. The one thing we did not do is ask his blessing, his blessing would have came with curses.

[ILG]

Just an observation most folks advising don't have a pastor and some do not even attend an Apostolic church. Remember what David said about the counsel of the ungodly.

I don't attend church anywhere. I suggested you talk to him face to face. You better not listen to me! :heeheehee

I was a very faithful church attender for 19 years. My husband and I pastored for 10. I personally think that counts for something. As a matter of fact, I know it does. ;)

[Rose]

Even in fleeing David honored Saul's position by restraining himself and his men from killing Saul. He also confronted Saul about their situation.

From personal experiences I believe face to face meetings are best.

[crakjak]

Just an observation most folks advising don't have a pastor and some do not even attend an Apostolic church. Remember what David said about the counsel of the ungodly.

You're right Steve, I noticed that not one person commented on my advise, folks just can't receive godly counsel, can they!! LOL

Fact is, most folks will work things our for themselves, they just want someone to listen to their situation, then they do what THEY are able to do. They really don't want someone to tell them what to do.

[Originalist]

Just an observation most folks advising don't have a pastor and some do not even attend an Apostolic church. Remember what David said about the counsel of the ungodly.


If they are indwelt by the Spirit, trying their best to live for the Lord, and assembling with other belivers in some fashion, how are they then ungodly?

[RandyWayne]

I am not defending him and I do believe what you have said is the truth. Why should you stay? I just don't want to be another guy who tells someone I do not know what they want to hear.

So, thinking about how horribly Saul treated David, he (David) humbled himself and endured the mistreatment. He did what was right in the Lord's eye and as his reward for being faithful was that he was made King.

David's "faith" was manifested in the fact that he didn't KILL Saul. He certainly didn't STAY with him. I don't see anyone here telling Originalist to physically kill his pastor. . . .

Even apart from that, I highly doubt the pastor at issue here is anointed in the same way Saul was.

[Nitehawk013]

It always seems to go back to David and Saul right?

Modern leaders aren't kings ruling within a theocratic country. This is the church. Second God didn't approve or wnat that whole king nonsense in the first place. He begged Israel by way of the prophet to NOT ask for a king. Finally, you see no reference back to David and Saul in the NT when it writes about how to deal with leaders and disagreements. You certainly see nothign about how you owe your pastor a sit down meeting and explanation when you feel God leading you elsewhere. I think 99% of the time it is a good idea to show him that respect and talk to him, but it's not like this process is spelled out in scripture.

[ILG]

It always seems to go back to David and Saul right?

Modern leaders aren't kings ruling within a theocratic country. This is the church. Second God didn't approve or wnat that whole king nonsense in the first place. He begged Israel by way of the prophet to NOT ask for a king. Finally, you see no reference back to David and Saul in the NT when it writes about how to deal with leaders and disagreements. You certainly see nothign about how you owe your pastor a sit down meeting and explanation when you feel God leading you elsewhere. I think 99% of the time it is a good idea to show him that respect and talk to him, but it's not like this process is spelled out in scripture.

:like

[Esaias]

If they are indwelt by the Spirit, trying their best to live for the Lord, and assembling with other belivers in some fashion, how are they then ungodly?

They haven't pulled out the weed of Carmelita (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showpost.php?p=1278837&postcount=133).

[thaddaeus417]

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

[houston]

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.point???

[Ferd]

Just an observation most folks advising don't have a pastor and some do not even attend an Apostolic church. Remember what David said about the counsel of the ungodly.

Elder, i certainly did suggest moving forward with the letter... not because I endorse the option but because the individual is going to do this no matter what.

in my experience, trying to convince leavers to stay never really works out well.

I know that no pastor likes to lose someone. Ive had more than one conversation with my pastor on the subject. I love my pastor for his love of people. He is kind and longsuffering and has never once just "let go" of someone. BUT there have been times when I have suggested to him that subtraction has meant addition to the church.

[Steve Epley]

Elder, i certainly did suggest moving forward with the letter... not because I endorse the option but because the individual is going to do this no matter what.

in my experience, trying to convince leavers to stay never really works out well.

I know that no pastor likes to lose someone. Ive had more than one conversation with my pastor on the subject. I love my pastor for his love of people. He is kind and longsuffering and has never once just "let go" of someone. BUT there have been times when I have suggested to him that subtraction has meant addition to the church.

This is very true. As a Pastor for 4 decades there has been very few folks I wanted to see leave. I loved them even the unruly hold a place in your hearts. But there are times your peace means more than their presence. I confess when I was younger I probably did not handle it as good as I should have. I was hurt and felt as if I had failed. But at least the last 25 years I have handled it much different if someone wanted to leave I tried to make it as less painful as I could. I wanted to leave the door open for them and I did not want to become their enemy. Generally after their departure would be very dark days for me personally where I would examine every dealing I had with them and their children. Yes honestly there were times some of the blame was at my door and other times it was no ones blame things just happen. But as I type this I see faces of years ago where they are I don't know but I do know this I love them yet dearly and hope for their best. Parting generally comes with such sorrow. That is my story.

[navygoat1998]

This is very true. As a Pastor for 4 decades there has been very few folks I wanted to see leave. I loved them even the unruly hold a place in your hearts. But there are times your peace means more than their presence. I confess when I was younger I probably did not handle it as good as I should have. I was hurt and felt as if I had failed. But at least the last 25 years I have handled it much different if someone wanted to leave I tried to make it as less painful as I could. I wanted to leave the door open for them and I did not want to become their enemy. Generally after their departure would be very dark days for me personally where I would examine every dealing I had with them and their children. Yes honestly there were times some of the blame was at my door and other times it was no ones blame things just happen. But as I type this I see faces of years ago where they are I don't know but I do know this I love them yet dearly and hope for their best. Parting generally comes with such sorrow. That is my story.

Elder Epley even my old pastor, I have rekindled a friendship back with him. I got saved under his hand.

We do the best we can. In the big picture we are all broken people in need of a Savior.

He did what he understood to be the right thing from his experience and I did what I needed to do for my little family.

Deep in me is love for him when I look back on the times we served together.

I plan on taking a trip back to California and one of the 1st none family members I will see is him and we will break bread and will fellowship the difference.

[ILG]

My old original pastor never tries to contact anyone when they leave. His thoughts are "They left the meeting house." and "Jonah went to Nineveh when he was ready." We served in his church for 9 years and worked with him some afterwards but he has never once tried to contact us since we left nor even sent us a Christmas card. But then, I never expected him to. (Haven't heard from him nor spoken to him in probably nine years.)

[Esaias]

Maybe it's just me, but all this drama and stuff... over going to a church much closer to your home, where you already have an influence in the community that can be used for the glory of God...?????

I mean, it's not like he's 'never gonna see' the old pastor again... right?

It's not like he and the old pastor aren't going to continue to relate to one another as brothers in the Lord, members of God's household, with the same faith, same spirit... right???

I mean, seriously... it's not like he's leaving because he just fell away, backslid, dumping his wife for some hussy, on drugs, worshipping idols.... right???

I don't see why there should be a problem.

At least not on his end...

[ILG]

Maybe it's just me, but all this drama and stuff... over going to a church much closer to your home, where you already have an influence in the community that can be used for the glory of God...?????

I mean, it's not like he's 'never gonna see' the old pastor again... right?

It's not like he and the old pastor aren't going to continue to relate to one another as brothers in the Lord, members of God's household, with the same faith, same spirit... right???

I mean, seriously... it's not like he's leaving because he just fell away, backslid, dumping his wife for some hussy, on drugs, worshipping idols.... right???

I don't see why there should be a problem.

At least not on his end...

But we all know his pastor could MAKE it a problem. That is the only concern here and you know, some of them do.

[RandyWayne]

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

point???

42

As good an answer as any I suppose.

[Esaias]

42

As good an answer as any I suppose.

Gee. What a (cough) DEEP THOUGHT (cough)...

:icecream

[crakjak]

This is very true. As a Pastor for 4 decades there has been very few folks I wanted to see leave. I loved them even the unruly hold a place in your hearts. But there are times your peace means more than their presence. I confess when I was younger I probably did not handle it as good as I should have. I was hurt and felt as if I had failed. But at least the last 25 years I have handled it much different if someone wanted to leave I tried to make it as less painful as I could. I wanted to leave the door open for them and I did not want to become their enemy. Generally after their departure would be very dark days for me personally where I would examine every dealing I had with them and their children. Yes honestly there were times some of the blame was at my door and other times it was no ones blame things just happen. But as I type this I see faces of years ago where they are I don't know but I do know this I love them yet dearly and hope for their best. Parting generally comes with such sorrow. That is my story.

I believe your sincerity and heart for your folks, Steve.
I have been a member of nine different assemblies in my adult life, I have never had a fight with a single pastor. I spoke honestly and directly to each, some were due to difference in beliefs, most were due to logistical issues, distance, etc. I remain friends and friendly with each of them when we cross paths.
I am a business owner, and involved with a significant non-profit ministry, I understand the pain of losing staff, employees, volunteers, board members and friends, for a multitude of reasons, it never feels good. But it is a fact of life, things and people change, and so as adults we can't torture ourselves unduly with it comes.

[Originalist]

I am going to respectfully lay the cards on the table when I come back. It may be a bit awkward to discuss both topics (his tithing sermon and the possibility of my family movig to another church), but it looks like that is where we are headed.

I am going to quote him on certain comments he made during his recent tithing sermon, admit that those comments left us needing clarificaton, and ask him to clarify his remarks. If he truly feels that financial troubles always result from a lack of giving, then I will respectfully remind him that my calamities came after a year and a half of tithing the gross of my BUSINESS income. If he blows that off, or just shrugs. then i will not argue. I will simply shift gears to the next topic., my family assisting the smaller , nearby struggling church, and explain to him the logical reasons we should do so.

I will not accept any "gas money" just to be able to show up on Wednesday nights to stare at the back of someone's head. That really would not be a prudent use of the church's money, and would make me feel beholden at this point. All the signs are apparent that I am on my way out. No invitations to preach for a whole year (that after being 'the go to guy'), no welcome back greetings from the pulpit after being out of the country for 2 months, and my name has not been reinstated for various platform funtions that I normally did for the duration of my time here prior to leaving for Mexico in mid June. it would seem that I'm being considered "unreliable" and am being kicked to the curb.

[ILG]

I am going to respectfully lay the cards on the table when I come back. It may be a bit awkward to discuss both topics (his tithing sermon and the possibility of my family movig to another church), but it looks like that is where we are headed.

I am going to quote him on certain comments he made during his recent tithing sermon, admitthat those comments left us needing clarificaton, and ask him to clarify his remarks. If he truly feels that financial troubles always result from a lack of giving, then I will respectfully remind him that my calamities came after a year and a half of tithing the gross of my BUSINESS income. If he blows that off, or just shrugs. then i will not argue. I will simply shift gears to the next topic., my family assisting the smaller , nearby struggling church, and explain to him the logical reasons we should do so.

I will not accept any "gas money" just to be able to show up on Wednesday nights to stare at the back of someone's head. That really would not be a prudent use of the church's money, and would make me feel beholden at this point. All the signs are apparent that I am on my way out. No invitations to preach for a while year (that after being 'the go to guy), no welcome back greetings from the pulpit after being out of the country for 2 months, and my name has not been reinstated for various platform funtions that I normally did for the duration of my time here prior to leaving for Mexico in mid June. it would seem that I'm being considered "unreliable" and am being kicked to the curb.

Yeah it does seem you are being snubbed.

[Ferd]

Now this is just me... but if I were leaving, I wouldnt go into much.

You arent going to change his preaching. You arent going to get him to see things your way. so why rehash it all?

I would just point out that there is a church close by that you feel led to help. That you are moving your family over there and God Bless and Godspeed.

you arent going to get points for showing this man the error of his ways, but you will lead him to think poorly of you so.

[navygoat1998]

Now this is just me... but if I were leaving, I wouldnt go into much.

You arent going to change his preaching. You arent going to get him to see things your way. so why rehash it all?

I would just point out that there is a church close by that you feel led to help. That you are moving your family over there and God Bless and Godspeed.

you arent going to get points for showing this man the error of his ways, but you will lead him to think poorly of you so.

Sermon fodder, Brother Ferd!!!!! :heeheehee

[n david]

All the signs are apparent that I am on my way out. No invitations to preach for a whole year (that after being 'the go to guy'), ... it would seem that I'm being considered "unreliable" and am being kicked to the curb.
While your Pastor may well have an issue against you, what's mentioned above shouldn't be considered a snub.

In a previous post, you stated that for several months, you were only able to make it to church once a week. I don't know of many Pastors who would ask someone to preach if they were only able to attend one service a week. It's nothing against you personally. There are others in the church besides your Pastor who saw that you were only making it to one service a week -- this, after having been so involved as you said you were. How would it appear to them if you were asked to preach? I understand it's not fair and it's not indicative of your walk with God; however, it's hard to preach and be effective when other saints see you're only there once a week.

I went from a church were I was an assistant to the Pastor (emphasis was made on the "to the") and preached several times a month, due to his schedule; to not preaching at all the first three years where I currently am, and then preaching once in 2011 and once in 2012 -- although I did preach twice this year due to my Pastor having surgery and being limited for a couple weeks. Sometimes you just have to be patient and wait on God.

From November 2012 to April 2013, I worked 7 days a week between my two part time jobs. I was only able to make it to church one service a week. My participation in ministry came to a halt. I literally had 2 days off during that 5 month period. We have only one car, and for those 5 months the only time my wife left the house was when we went to church.

[Originalist]

While your Pastor may well have an issue against you, what's mentioned above shouldn't be considered a snub.

In a previous post, you stated that for several months, you were only able to make it to church once a week. I don't know of many Pastors who would ask someone to preach if they were only able to attend one service a week. It's nothing against you personally. There are others in the church besides your Pastor who saw that you were only making it to one service a week -- this, after having been so involved as you said you were. How would it appear to them if you were asked to preach? I understand it's not fair and it's not indicative of your walk with God; however, it's hard to preach and be effective when other saints see you're only there once a week.

I went from a church were I was an assistant to the Pastor (emphasis was made on the "to the") and preached several times a month, due to his schedule; to not preaching at all the first three years where I currently am, and then preaching once in 2011 and once in 2012 -- although I did preach twice this year due to my Pastor having surgery and being limited for a couple weeks. Sometimes you just have to be patient and wait on God.

There were 5 months my work schedule only allowed me to attend on service a month, and two months I was out of the country. That is seven months total. What about the other 5 months?

[KeptByTheWord]

Now this is just me... but if I were leaving, I wouldnt go into much.

You arent going to change his preaching. You arent going to get him to see things your way. so why rehash it all?

I would just point out that there is a church close by that you feel led to help. That you are moving your family over there and God Bless and Godspeed.

you arent going to get points for showing this man the error of his ways, but you will lead him to think poorly of you so.

Great advice really. You'll just become sermon fodder as NG has already pointed out. Keeping it simple, and not pointing any fingers at him will go a long way at keeping your relationship at least civil in the future.

Sermon fodder, Brother Ferd!!!!! :heeheehee

Yes... exactly what will happen if you "bare your soul"...

My advice matches Ferd's ... say as little as possible, keep it as positive as possible realizing that you are not going to change him, and just move on with as much civility and kindness as possible.

Praying for ya! I totally get the sensitive nature of what you're trying to do, we've been there... done that... and your family is in our prayers :)

[n david]

There were 5 months my work schedule only allowed me to attend on service a month, and two months I was out of the country. That is seven months total. What about the other 5 months?
I don't know why he didn't the other 5 months. I do know from experience at previous churches and my current church, there are times when good, Godly men aren't asked to preach for a while. It's nothing against these men, it's just how it is.

In the church where my father was the Pastor, unless there was a special service with an evangelist or missionary, he preached every Sunday morning, evening and Wednesday evening. And he had an assistant Pastor, a student pastor, my brother was licensed, another young man was working for his license, and I was there. He had several others who were capable of giving the message, but it was rare they were asked to do so.

My current church has myself and at least 3 others, possibly 4, who have been in ministry and have taught or preached in the past. Until I gave back to back messages last month, there were several months since someone else besides the Pastor had given a message. Most mid-weeks he goes through an in-depth series on a book in the Bible or a certain topic; and most Sundays are based on a series as well, though more expository and evangelistic than mid-week services.

[Timmy]

Now this is just me... but if I were leaving, I wouldnt go into much.

You arent going to change his preaching. You arent going to get him to see things your way. so why rehash it all?

I would just point out that there is a church close by that you feel led to help. That you are moving your family over there and God Bless and Godspeed.

you arent going to get points for showing this man the error of his ways, but you will lead him to think poorly of you so.

Good post. Especially the correct spelling of "led". :thumbsup

[Ferd]

Good post. Especially the correct spelling of "led". :thumbsup

ha! like I can tell if i spelled it right or not! LOL.

[Real Realism]

If you are at peace with the decision to leave, despite the outcome of the conversation, I agree with Ferd that it would be prudent to skip the "negative" and be as gracious as possible.

Unless you're content with the likelihood of your pastor taking your leaving as a result of his stance on tithing and not reengaging with you upon your return - I wouldn't mention them. No matter how kindly you try to broach the subjects and ask him to clarify his stance - mentioning those issues in the same breath as saying, "Pastor, I feel led to move on to a church in a town that's part of my sphere of influence." - He's only going to latch on to the negative reasons. No fault to him, IMO, but that's just human nature.

If it's more important for you to clear the air with him before you move on, then by all means, have the conversation. But just know what the consequences are likely to be.

[Esaias]

While your Pastor may well have an issue against you, what's mentioned above shouldn't be considered a snub.

In a previous post, you stated that for several months, you were only able to make it to church once a week. I don't know of many Pastors who would ask someone to preach if they were only able to attend one service a week. It's nothing against you personally. There are others in the church besides your Pastor who saw that you were only making it to one service a week -- this, after having been so involved as you said you were. How would it appear to them if you were asked to preach? I understand it's not fair and it's not indicative of your walk with God; however, it's hard to preach and be effective when other saints see you're only there once a week.

I went from a church were I was an assistant to the Pastor (emphasis was made on the "to the") and preached several times a month, due to his schedule; to not preaching at all the first three years where I currently am, and then preaching once in 2011 and once in 2012 -- although I did preach twice this year due to my Pastor having surgery and being limited for a couple weeks. Sometimes you just have to be patient and wait on God.

Just an aside... how does any of this even remotely look like the religion of the apostles?

[Ferd]

Just an aside... how does any of this even remotely look like the religion of the apostles?

which part? the bickering? they did that
the splitting up and going different directions? they did that


or is it the building? cuz evidently according to AFF they didnt have buildings 2000 years ago! LOL! j/k

[Esaias]

which part? the bickering? they did that
the splitting up and going different directions? they did that


or is it the building? cuz evidently according to AFF they didnt have buildings 2000 years ago! LOL! j/k

No, the 'preaching schedule' part. The 'must attend x number of 'services' per week to be permitted (licensed?) to preach' part.

Etc.

[Originalist]

No, the 'preaching schedule' part. The 'must attend x number of 'services' per week to be permitted (licensed?) to preach' part.

Etc.

Right. Was i supposed to stay home and let the church pay my bills instead of working to support my family? nobody in this church, except for this past week, has ever offered to try to help me get a job where they work.

Alongthe same vein...I heard a Christian radio talk show the other day where a lady called him to ask some questions. The radio teacher was teaching on "tithing". This lady related how that she and her husband had always tithed, but that they had lost her husband's income due to a terrible illness. He is now bed ridden. When she gets off work, she has to take care of him as well as handle all the household duties. They pay for someone to watch him during the day. Due to the loss of income, they are going in the red and heading towards bankruptcy.

The lady asked the radio teacher how she was suppose to tithe like this. He told her she should get a second job. I kid you not.

[n david]

Just an aside... how does any of this even remotely look like the religion of the apostles?
I see your point; however, not all ministry is done behind a pulpit. In fact, most of the ministry we do is not even in the building.

Regarding the Apostles - in Acts 2 we see Peter as the voice, but what about the other Apostles. They were with Jesus, as we as in the upper room. Yet of the 120 in the room, only Peter spoke. In Acts 3, it's Peter and John going to the Temple, but again Peter is the one preaching. Acts 4-6 still Peter as the main preacher, yet all the other disciples I would assume would be able to preach...but until Stephen in Acts 6, it was just Peter. We finally hear from Philip, Paul and others later on, but mostly it was Peter at the beginning.

[Esaias]

I see your point; however, not all ministry is done behind a pulpit. In fact, most of the ministry we do is not even in the building.

Regarding the Apostles - in Acts 2 we see Peter as the voice, but what about the other Apostles. They were with Jesus, as we as in the upper room. Yet of the 120 in the room, only Peter spoke. In Acts 3, it's Peter and John going to the Temple, but again Peter is the one preaching. Acts 4-6 still Peter as the main preacher, yet all the other disciples I would assume would be able to preach...but until Stephen in Acts 6, it was just Peter. We finally hear from Philip, Paul and others later on, but mostly it was Peter at the beginning.

As you mentioned, most of that preaching was evangelistic preaching to the lost, outside the 'church' (except for the Acts 2 reference of course). When I say 'religion of the apostles' I don't mean just specifically regarding the apostles themselves, but rather to the whole body of faith and practice they taught.

1 Cor 12-14 seems to describe a very different kind of 'meeting' than what goes on in many of today's churches. Sure, there is the occasional message in tongues from Sister So-And-So (almost always with the pastor interpreting)... but I had this crazy idea...

...it goes like this...

The only person who needs to speak in the meeting is the one through whom God decides to speak. Now, either God never decides to speak though anyone unless he meets the pastor's criteria of church attendance, personal grooming and dress standards, tithing, licensing with the general HQ, etc etc etc... OR the meeting must be an open meeting in order to allow God to use whoever He chooses.

And yes, I understand the 'danger' inherent in an open meeting. Why, you might even get someone saying or claiming something that might not be 100 percent doctrinally, Biblically correct. I do not see how the current trend of closed, tightly controlled meetings has prevented that from happening, but....

In any event, it seems we have moved further and further from what it meant to be 'Pentecostal' and we are becoming more structured, controlled, and perhaps even stifled.

Where will it all end?

[Esaias]

And one more thing. I had a pastor (of a Oneness Pentecostal house church) mention to me during a message that 'you don't need a license to preach. You don't any approval from man to preach. If you are called of God to preach, there is a whole, wide world out there waiting to hear what you have to say.' (Paraphrased, of course).

The idea was if you are called to preach, you should have no problem with unscheduled, open air, public preaching. No license required.

[Originalist]

And one more thing. I had a pastor (of a Oneness Pentecostal house church) mention to me during a message that 'you don't need a license to preach. You don't any approval from man to preach. If you are called of God to preach, there is a whole, wide world out there waiting to hear what you have to say.' (Paraphrased, of course).

The idea was if you are called to preach, you should have no problem with unscheduled, open air, public preaching. No license required.


While in Mexico, I met a local minister who does just that. He has a map of the county he lives in, and travels to every town and village preaching in the town square. They have established groups in every one of them, but they never cease preaching open air.

Just last night I told my wife that i wanted to follow this brother's pattern in our part of the county. i want to go to every little town and just preach Christ. I think that if people see you are consistent, you will attract an audience. They'll look for you to show up.

[Esaias]

While in Mexico, I met a local minister who does just that. He has a map of the county he lives in, and travels to every town and village preaching in the town square. They have established groups in every one of them, but they never cease preaching open air.

Just last night I told my wife that i wanted to follow this brother's pattern in our part of the county. i want to go to every little town and just preach Christ. I think that if people see you are consistent, you will attract an audience. They'll look for you to show up.

Kind of like the apostles in the temple day after day...

[Originalist]

Kind of like the apostles in the temple day after day...


Ok. Now answer me this. How many oneness pastors would "allow" or "bless" this sort of thing being done by someone in their church?

[Esaias]

Ok. Now answer me this. How many oneness pastors would "allow" or "bless" this sort of thing being done by someone in their church?

I was using the Temple as an example of a public place, an opportunity for public evangelism.

I would like to think most or all OP pastors would support the idea of a church member going out and preaching publicly...

...but I suspect they would shy away from posting the streetpreachers bail every week...

:heeheehee

[n david]

The only person who needs to speak in the meeting is the one through whom God decides to speak. Now, either God never decides to speak though anyone unless he meets the pastor's criteria of church attendance, personal grooming and dress standards, tithing, licensing with the general HQ, etc etc etc... OR the meeting must be an open meeting in order to allow God to use whoever He chooses.

And yes, I understand the 'danger' inherent in an open meeting. Why, you might even get someone saying or claiming something that might not be 100 percent doctrinally, Biblically correct. I do not see how the current trend of closed, tightly controlled meetings has prevented that from happening, but....

In any event, it seems we have moved further and further from what it meant to be 'Pentecostal' and we are becoming more structured, controlled, and perhaps even stifled.

Where will it all end?
That's how it was written of Azusa Street meetings. There wasn't a single person who was in charge of anything. From what I understood of Bartleman's book, it was just a prayer meeting that grew into the revival. No praise teams. No pastors. Just people seeking God.

I wouldn't be against any of that.

And one more thing. I had a pastor (of a Oneness Pentecostal house church) mention to me during a message that 'you don't need a license to preach. You don't any approval from man to preach. If you are called of God to preach, there is a whole, wide world out there waiting to hear what you have to say.' (Paraphrased, of course).

The idea was if you are called to preach, you should have no problem with unscheduled, open air, public preaching. No license required.
My Pastor has said over and over you don't have to go to Bible School or get a piece of paper from a group of men to be a minister or preach. He doesn't just mean outside the church, he means in the pulpit as well.

He did mention having a group of elders from the body ordain ministers and send them out to start other works. But as far as becoming a licensed, dues-paying minister in an organization.....ain't nobody got time for that! :foottap

:lol

[Esaias]

That's how it was written of Azusa Street meetings. There wasn't a single person who was in charge of anything. From what I understood of Bartleman's book, it was just a prayer meeting that grew into the revival. No praise teams. No pastors. Just people seeking God.

I wouldn't be against any of that.

I've seen it in action, and it is much better than what I've seen the last 10-15 years or so. We're almost at the point where the term Pentecostal is gonna wind up the same as the term 'Methodist' - formerly meant hot burning revival, now means dead formalism.

Of course, I just ate an entire cheese pizza from Little Caesar's so I might be a tad bit on the pessimistic side.


My Pastor has said over and over you don't have to go to Bible School or get a piece of paper from a group of men to be a minister or preach. He doesn't just mean outside the church, he means in the pulpit as well.

He did mention having a group of elders from the body ordain ministers and send them out to start other works. But as far as becoming a licensed, dues-paying minister in an organization.....ain't nobody got time for that! :foottap

:lol

I certainly agree with the idea of elders sending trained people out to start new works. I think that is entirely biblical, as long as THIS is kept in mind - the original method for 'ordaining' preachers -

Act 13:1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.


3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

:thumbsup

[n david]

I certainly agree with the idea of elders sending trained people out to start new works. I think that is entirely biblical, as long as THIS is kept in mind - the original method for 'ordaining' preachers -

Act 13:1 Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

3 And when they had fasted and prayed, and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.

:thumbsup
Growing up in the UPC, it was all about "Local," "General," and "Ordination." The local church didn't have elders who participated in the ministry; it was a church board who did the business.

The Scripture above has been quoted as a reason to use elders for that purpose.