View Full Version : Why men hate church
Esaias
10-01-2013, 06:13 PM
Interesting article on the subject of the feminization of the church:
http://magazine.biola.edu/article/06-spring/the-feminization-of-the-church/
The leaders of a new, Christian movement think they’ve solved a centuries-old mystery: why men are absent from church. But their answer isn’t politically correct.
They believe Christianity has become feminized.
There are generally more women than men in every type of church, in every part of the world, according to church growth experts like Patrick Johnstone, author of Operation World.
A traditional explanation is that women are more spiritual than men. But the leaders of this new movement suggest that the church’s music, messages and ministries cater to women. One of the leaders is David Murrow, author of a provocative book Why Men Hate Going to Church (Nelson Books), who spoke with Biola Connections.
The result of this feminization is that many men, even Christian men, view churches as “ladies clubs” and don’t go — or they often go to please their wives.
RandyWayne
10-01-2013, 06:15 PM
Hey, in my limited experience the only reason most men even go to church is to meet women. Take that away, and what reason is there?
MissBrattified
10-01-2013, 06:25 PM
Good article with some very valid points. I also wonder about the idea that traditional church has robbed men of their natural authority. Instead of being a setting where men can meet and discuss scripture--or even church business--on an equal level, it's often more of the single-man government structure. Men would be more apt to be involved in church if they had more say-so over what goes on there and if teaching/preaching was more interactive and inclusive. The modern church structure where the pastor does most of the teaching/preaching and everyone simply listens is similar to me to the NT women being told to ask their husbands questions at home.
E.g., it's more of a passive, possibly feminine way of learning. Scripture seems to show that *church* in the local synagogue was different, with men taking an active role in the reading of scriptures and discussion.
I'm not for oppressing women in the church, but I do agree that men have been pushed into a passive, emasculating role. In the past, women have been accustomed to submissive, passive roles, so it was easy for them to fit into the traditional church picture. Men, not so much.
Essais, this is probably a place where "house-church" excels--it levels the playing field and makes church authority a little less intimidating. :)
Michael The Disciple
10-01-2013, 07:10 PM
If they hate Church which is a questionable statement......could it be because they are presented a steady diet of milk or even water of the word? Never any meat? Never the challenge to be like the ultimate man Jesus Christ?
The reason I do not attend Church is simple. Theres not enough truth taught to make it worthwhile. Almost everything taught at least foundationally is taught wrong. So I would LIKE to go to Church.
My prayer is God please let me find the true Church or at least a worthwhile Church before I die.
seekerman
10-01-2013, 07:23 PM
Interesting article on the subject of the feminization of the church:
http://magazine.biola.edu/article/06-spring/the-feminization-of-the-church/
One of the issues is with men not being a leader spiritually in home or the church so women step up and do it.
houston
10-01-2013, 07:41 PM
If they hate Church which is a questionable statement......could it be because they are presented a steady diet of milk or even water of the word? Never any meat? Never the challenge to be like the ultimate man Jesus Christ? The reason I do not attend Church is simple. Theres not enough truth taught to make it worthwhile. Almost everything taught at least foundationally is taught wrong. So I would LIKE to go to Church. My prayer is God please let me find the true Church or at least a worthwhile Church before I die.I agree with much of this.
houston
10-01-2013, 07:43 PM
One of the issues is with men not being a leader spiritually in home or the church so women step up and do it.In some places men have their leadership cut off and placed in the offering basket. There are MANY churches where the pastor is the LEADER of peoples homes.
seekerman
10-01-2013, 07:58 PM
There are MANY churches where the pastor is the LEADER of peoples homes.
True. I have relatives in situations like that.
houston
10-01-2013, 08:19 PM
True. I have relatives in situations like that.I had a pastor who said that if the husband is not in church then he (the pastor) is her spiritual authority. Blah blah blah
RandyWayne
10-01-2013, 09:43 PM
In some places men have their leadership cut off and placed in the offering basket. There are MANY churches where the pastor is the LEADER of peoples homes.
True. I have relatives in situations like that.
That was our house, at least for several years during the dark time of the 80's.
Praxeas
10-01-2013, 11:37 PM
Hey, in my limited experience the only reason most men even go to church is to meet women. Take that away, and what reason is there?http://cmybacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/mevrouw_walvis-1.jpg
RandyWayne
10-02-2013, 12:37 AM
http://cmybacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/mevrouw_walvis-1.jpg
That has been my experience as well.
renee819
10-02-2013, 04:56 AM
Doesn't the Institutional churches get it yet? NO!
Some have and started additional home meetings, which is a help.
But at least some on here should see, that it is time for REFORM.
I don't know how that is to happen, I wouldn't know how to go about it. But I don't believe it will happen until the Persecution starts.
The HEAD is sick. And the BODY keeps trying to feed it. I'm talking about the Institutional HEADQUARTERS.
Thank you for the article. I intend to read with the goal of gaining understanding!
let me just add.... and this has more to do with where I am today than anything said in AFF, or in this thread.....
Part of why some men hate church is because they are stinking selfish little boys who refuse to at like men. They play like they are men. they get some woman to sleep with them, they provide DNA for the creation of children, but the closest then to manhood they actually include in their own lives is showing their stinking drivers license to the poor soul serving them alcohol.
in short, Punk Kids dont act like grownups. Grownups recognize certain requirements of adulthood.
There I feel better. Hope that splapped some punk kid BOY in the fact. GROW UP!
carry on...
Doesn't the Institutional churches get it yet? NO!
Some have and started additional home meetings, which is a help.
But at least some on here should see, that it is time for REFORM.
I don't know how that is to happen, I wouldn't know how to go about it. But I don't believe it will happen until the Persecution starts.
The HEAD is sick. And the BODY keeps trying to feed it. I'm talking about the Institutional HEADQUARTERS.
Renee, do you attend a home church? are you part of that kind of structure?
Esaias
10-02-2013, 08:05 AM
Thank you for the article. I intend to read with the goal of gaining understanding!
let me just add.... and this has more to do with where I am today than anything said in AFF, or in this thread.....
Part of why some men hate church is because they are stinking selfish little boys who refuse to at like men. They play like they are men. they get some woman to sleep with them, they provide DNA for the creation of children, but the closest then to manhood they actually include in their own lives is showing their stinking drivers license to the poor soul serving them alcohol.
in short, Punk Kids dont act like grownups. Grownups recognize certain requirements of adulthood.
There I feel better. Hope that splapped some punk kid BOY in the fact. GROW UP!
carry on...
:heeheehee
As for the article, I think the author is spot on. The church structure (in general) in western society seems to be geared more for women than for men. Society in general seems to be moving in the same direction, the two situations are obviously connected.
Especially in regards to the music.
:heeheehee
As for the article, I think the author is spot on. The church structure (in general) in western society seems to be geared more for women than for men. Society in general seems to be moving in the same direction, the two situations are obviously connected.
Especially in regards to the music.
LOL! sorry for the personal rant. needed to get that off my chest in a "safe" environment!
Thank you for the article. I think I will find some stuff there that can help us!
Justin
10-02-2013, 08:38 AM
Today's music is catered to women... "Hold me in your arms" "take me to that secret place"
There are more. All these "Jesus is my boyfriend" songs need to go. I mean, you could sing a lot songs as worships songs as well as songs to your loved one. They're interchangeable.
n david
10-02-2013, 08:45 AM
The article has several good points to think about.
IMO, the big 3 reasons I see for lack of men at church:
1) Pure laziness. They work during the week and want to sit and watch football on Sundays
2) Either no men's ministry or a very boring one (this is one area where I wish my church was better. The men's ministry hardly ever does anything, and when they do it's generally meeting on a saturday morning for breakfast. Woooot!)
3) Wimpy messages that focus more on Olsteen-style be positive, not negative, "you can do it!" junk; instead of preaching against sin and for living a holy life.
I don't believe the music has much to do with it; however, I'm biased, being the music minister at my church. Perhaps the skinny jeans trend turns some off, but not the music.
Aquila
10-02-2013, 08:45 AM
If they hate Church which is a questionable statement......could it be because they are presented a steady diet of milk or even water of the word? Never any meat? Never the challenge to be like the ultimate man Jesus Christ?
The reason I do not attend Church is simple. Theres not enough truth taught to make it worthwhile. Almost everything taught at least foundationally is taught wrong. So I would LIKE to go to Church.
My prayer is God please let me find the true Church or at least a worthwhile Church before I die.
:thumbsup
I too pray that prayer. I pray that not only do I find it... but that I will be accepting of it when I do.
Aquila
10-02-2013, 08:50 AM
One of the issues is with men not being a leader spiritually in home or the church so women step up and do it.
Amen.
Sadly, Christianity has become a religion that is all too often practiced "at church" and merely talked about outside of church. Evangelism is left for the "experts", along with teaching and preaching.
The role of men isn't being clearly established in a workable form. And sadly... a lot of women aren't buying into the biblical teaching with regards to male authority.
And frankly... on a personal note... sometimes I feel like Christianity as a whole neglects the very real and present need for male identity, male needs, male perspective, and male honor. Recently a Shiite Muslim family moved into our neighborhood. They are very good people. I am absolutely impressed with the social order of their home. The father of the home is held in the utmost honor.
n david
10-02-2013, 08:51 AM
Today's music is catered to women... "Hold me in your arms" "take me to that secret place"
There are more. All these "Jesus is my boyfriend" songs need to go. I mean, you could sing a lot songs as worships songs as well as songs to your loved one. They're interchangeable.
Balderdash. I've heard this same old lame excuse before, but it's not why men aren't going to church or don't like going to church. It registers at the bottom of the scale when you ask a guy why he doesn't attend church.
Aquila
10-02-2013, 08:53 AM
Today's music is catered to women... "Hold me in your arms" "take me to that secret place"
There are more. All these "Jesus is my boyfriend" songs need to go. I mean, you could sing a lot songs as worships songs as well as songs to your loved one. They're interchangeable.
Much of our "praise and worship" music boarders on blasphemy. :bolt
n david
10-02-2013, 09:02 AM
Much of our "praise and worship" music boarders on blasphemy. :bolt
Ok, I'll bite. How does it border on "blasphemy?"
KeptByTheWord
10-02-2013, 09:07 AM
Good article with some very valid points. I also wonder about the idea that traditional church has robbed men of their natural authority. Instead of being a setting where men can meet and discuss scripture--or even church business--on an equal level, it's often more of the single-man government structure. Men would be more apt to be involved in church if they had more say-so over what goes on there and if teaching/preaching was more interactive and inclusive. The modern church structure where the pastor does most of the teaching/preaching and everyone simply listens is similar to me to the NT women being told to ask their husbands questions at home.
E.g., it's more of a passive, possibly feminine way of learning. Scripture seems to show that *church* in the local synagogue was different, with men taking an active role in the reading of scriptures and discussion.
I'm not for oppressing women in the church, but I do agree that men have been pushed into a passive, emasculating role. In the past, women have been accustomed to submissive, passive roles, so it was easy for them to fit into the traditional church picture. Men, not so much.
Essais, this is probably a place where "house-church" excels--it levels the playing field and makes church authority a little less intimidating. :)
Miss B - the eloquence and truth of your response struck a resounding chord with me. In fact, our family has turned to house church for the very reasons mentioned above... in house church we don't have to sit and listen to music that we don't agree with doctrinally, we don't have to watch the fashion show and feel that we can't compare, we don't have to listen to one man speak in a monologue, who can't be interrupted, and asked to clarify or to even just ask a question... and our husbands are in their rightful place according to NT scripture, leading their home in prayer, worship, and doctrine.
KeptByTheWord
10-02-2013, 09:13 AM
In some places men have their leadership cut off and placed in the offering basket. There are MANY churches where the pastor is the LEADER of peoples homes.
I grew up in this kind of environment. All it does is build up a kingdom of women, or passive/feminine men, and lots of sexual problems within the church. Any church that I know of where the pastor takes authority from the husband and brings it to himself, then in every situation, that church has been beset with all kind of sexually immoral situations that never seem to end. Both my husband and I have family members still involved in churches like this, and it is so sad...
Esaias
10-02-2013, 09:25 AM
The article has several good points to think about.
IMO, the big 3 reasons I see for lack of men at church:
1) Pure laziness. They work during the week and want to sit and watch football on Sundays
2) Either no men's ministry or a very boring one (this is one area where I wish my church was better. The men's ministry hardly ever does anything, and when they do it's generally meeting on a saturday morning for breakfast. Woooot!)
3) Wimpy messages that focus more on Olsteen-style be positive, not negative, "you can do it!" junk; instead of preaching against sin and for living a holy life.
I don't believe the music has much to do with it; however, I'm biased, being the music minister at my church. Perhaps the skinny jeans trend turns some off, but not the music.
A major reason men aren't as interested in 'church' as they used to be I believe has to do with the lack of teaching and modeling concerning the proper role men have in the church and in the home. A man who just wants to plop down on the couch after work and watch tv is a man who has no clue (or doesn't care) about his role as a spiritual leader in his home or in his church (if he even bothers with church). People don't see church by and large as the kingdom of God involved in governmental functions of ruling and taking dominion spiritually and morally, and having a positive dominion-oriented impact on society. So, men just don't see much there to interest them, because there's really not much there to begin with.
As for 'men's ministry', churches ought to be teaching men how to be leaders, how to be one who 'is heard in the gates' of society, how to lead their family in the ways of God. But this is hard to do when Jesus is presented as a 'care bear' who exists to make everything all right or who exists to fulfill our wants. That is a presentation that is geared toward women, who need to feel secure and 'taken care of'. And that aspect of God's care is certainly necessary (can't leave women out!), but if that is the ONLY type of God being presented, or if mostly being presented, men aren't going to recognise that as anything worth following.
Men need several things to be 'fulfilled' -
1. A woman to rescue.
2. A cause to fight and die for.
3. A brotherhood to belong to.
4. A king to follow.
Jesus is a most worthy king to follow - he literally 'went to hell and back' for us. What man would not feel honoured to follow such a glorious and faithful leader? He is a great King, the greatest King, and it is an honour and a priviledge to serve him faithfully and valiantly.
Normal men do not resonate with the idea of expressing sappy, sentimental 'love' to another man... 'Jesus, come and take me away' just doesn't work with a normal guy.
Christ loved the church, and gave himself for it. In this manner men ought to love their wives. Yes, Christ is head of the church, and the man is the head of the woman, but the power of the chivalric aspect of sacrificing oneself for the "love of one's youth" cannot be underestimated.
(Of course, such a thing requires a woman who is not a quasi-lesbian brat who demands to 'wear the pants', but requires an actual WOMAN with true femininity...)
Christian men ought to feel they are a 'band of brothers', brothers in arms in the service of the king. Fighting a cause worth their efforts, worth dying for. What greater cause can there be than the salvation of mankind, and the enforcement of the Pax Christi upon this world of spiritual darkness?
All these things and more are essential to the God-endowed natural makeup of men... and most if not all these things are missing in 'church' these days. They are also missing in society, in general, having been replaced with effeminized Phil Donahue neutering (aka Babylonian castration) and a false 'machismo' which is nothing but an evil caricature of true godly manhood.
There is a reason 'sports', especially FOOTBALL (american football, not that goofy european kickball game) has such a grip on men... The team is alike a military squad, coach is the Leader, they work together to defeat the enemy... The exact same purpose was served by jousting and other tourneys in the medieval period, it provides a safe way for men to be men without actually needing to cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war and ravage some poor town in the next valley.
And simply trying to fit 'Onward Christian Soldiers' into the worship service isn't going to cut it.
n david
10-02-2013, 09:29 AM
Men need several things to be 'fulfilled' -
1. A woman to rescue.
2. A cause to fight and die for.
3. A brotherhood to belong to.
4. A king to follow.
:thumbsup :highfive
Esaias
10-02-2013, 09:32 AM
Good article with some very valid points. I also wonder about the idea that traditional church has robbed men of their natural authority. Instead of being a setting where men can meet and discuss scripture--or even church business--on an equal level, it's often more of the single-man government structure. Men would be more apt to be involved in church if they had more say-so over what goes on there and if teaching/preaching was more interactive and inclusive. The modern church structure where the pastor does most of the teaching/preaching and everyone simply listens is similar to me to the NT women being told to ask their husbands questions at home.
E.g., it's more of a passive, possibly feminine way of learning. Scripture seems to show that *church* in the local synagogue was different, with men taking an active role in the reading of scriptures and discussion.
I'm not for oppressing women in the church, but I do agree that men have been pushed into a passive, emasculating role. In the past, women have been accustomed to submissive, passive roles, so it was easy for them to fit into the traditional church picture. Men, not so much.
Essais, this is probably a place where "house-church" excels--it levels the playing field and makes church authority a little less intimidating. :)
The bolded part is spot on.
:highfive
houston
10-02-2013, 09:33 AM
So what you're saying is that the problem is that men are walking in the flesh.
Esaias
10-02-2013, 09:36 AM
Well, the bible teaches that effeminate men won't inherit the kingdom.
The Lemon
10-02-2013, 10:21 AM
Side note here - Seems to me I have heard this rant about "Pure Laziness" before - probably more then once I recall.
I do not doubt that there are grown men who are just immature kids who never grew up and I also have no doubt that there are lazy men in churches all over the U.S. of A.
Having said that - not all men (and most likely VERY few) that go to church are "lazy" - in fact, I would suspect that a great deal of men who are faithful to service are not in fact lazy people.
I know many who work long hours, some work more then one job. they provide for their homes - and yes, when the weekend comes, they are tired - who wouldn't be! The level of involvement in anything outside of the home and work should not be used as some sort of measuring stick to qualify those with a good work ethic versus the plain old lazy. This is absurd.
I believe we all need to pray and find our part in the work of God - believe me - but that does not mean that if person A is involved in Sunday School, teached 5-Bible studies a week, and never misses Church is somehow elevated over person B who for many reasons, including work schedules, can't be as involved with several funtions of the Church.
This is where the comparing ourselves is so unwise, and down right foolish. Go tell the next farmer or doctor, or nurse that they are clearly lazy because they don't grace the pew every Sunday, or that they don't "do enough" for the kingdom or souls.
There is a systemic problem with westernized church that goes far beyond the points of this article, believe me..
houston
10-02-2013, 10:22 AM
Well, the bible teaches that effeminate men won't inherit the kingdom.but men walking in the flesh will...
got it
n david
10-02-2013, 10:41 AM
Side note here - Seems to me I have heard this rant about "Pure Laziness" before - probably more then once I recall.
I do not doubt that there are grown men who are just immature kids who never grew up and I also have no doubt that there are lazy men in churches all over the U.S. of A.
Having said that - not all men (and most likely VERY few) that go to church are "lazy" - in fact, I would suspect that a great deal of men who are faithful to service are not in fact lazy people.
You mentioned my wording of "pure laziness," but completely butcher and misrepresent what I said. Look below, I wrote about 3 reasons for the lack of men at church.
IMO, the big 3 reasons I see for lack of men at church:
1) Pure laziness. They work during the week and want to sit and watch football on Sundays
I said nothing about involvement. That's a completely different topic, and for that I wouldn't call them lazy, nor would I compare them to others more involved. I would, however, look at what their priorities are. Some claim to be unable to be involved in any ministry, yet find time to take kids to soccer, baseball, football, gymnastics, etc; and sit around weekends watching sports or going on recreational activities.
Esaias
10-02-2013, 10:42 AM
but men walking in the flesh will...
got it
I seriously doubt you 'got it'.
:smack
Real Realism
10-02-2013, 10:49 AM
I believe we all need to pray and find our part in the work of God - believe me - but that does not mean that if person A is involved in Sunday School, teached 5-Bible studies a week, and never misses Church is somehow elevated over person B who for many reasons, including work schedules, can't be as involved with several funtions of the Church.
This is where the comparing ourselves is so unwise, and down right foolish. Go tell the next farmer or doctor, or nurse that they are clearly lazy because they don't grace the pew every Sunday, or that they don't "do enough" for the kingdom or souls.
Yep.
The Lemon
10-02-2013, 10:50 AM
Crystal clear David - I understand where you are coming from now and don't disagree.
I realize it is few and far between even in the instances I posted. Glad you chimed in here!
The Lemon
10-02-2013, 10:55 AM
...and I do believe in provoking one another to good works - and with that in mind, men do need to step up spiritually as well as financially and etc. With all that, the man who is trying his level best to guide his home needs the authority to do so and balance it as he seeks God.
I do not believe it is anyones place but Gods, to jump in and mediate between a husband and wife and their home - that is not a line a pastor should cross - with the exception of the couple individually or together, living in sin, and parading this around in front of the church.
Of course, one mans balance is another compromise, so a win/win is difficult here..
RandyWayne
10-02-2013, 11:17 AM
A former pastor recognized these issues which is why we started a yearly "sportsmen hunting and fishing" night in our church basement where we got together to discus hunting, fishing, firearms, etc. Man women came (and enjoyed it) but the night was really designed for men and their sons. In just a few years the thing became huge where we had dozens of local businesses donating raffle items. It brought in several dozen visitors as well.
My father-in-law (on the right) talking to one of my dads neighbors, who was a visitor and happens to be a taxidermist (and who looks an awful lot like Uncle Si) on the left.
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w113/RandyWayneD/Sports/Hunting%20Night/IMGP1144_zps2a8c2869.jpg
Even set up a shooting range in one corner where we had a few airguns and bows (no actual firearms though for obvious reasons).
http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w113/RandyWayneD/Sports/Hunting%20Night/IMGP1143_zps18c448f0.jpg
Esaias
10-02-2013, 11:47 AM
I'd keep an eye on that dude in the KISS shirt... looks a little glassy eyed there..
lol
navygoat1998
10-02-2013, 12:11 PM
I'd keep an eye on that dude in the KISS shirt... looks a little glassy eyed there..
lol
Most everybody I ever knew that owned a Kiss shirt was glassy eyed on a regular basis. :happydance
n david
10-02-2013, 12:15 PM
Much of our "praise and worship" music boarders on blasphemy. :boltOk, I'll bite. How does it border on "blasphemy?"
*bump
renee819
10-02-2013, 12:16 PM
Renee, do you attend a home church? are you part of that kind of structure?
No Ferd, I can't find one. There's probably a dozen in this area. I've went to several, and either, 1. Either they are strict on man-made rules for women. (no pant suits) or 2. They are so liberal that anything goes. Tying to keep up with the world in music, (The last one I went to, I wanted to put my hands over my ears, and was glad when the music stopped.
Trying to keep up with the world at Christmas and Easter. Absolutely Pagan Holidays, and the world knows it, but the church looks the other way.
Now tell me, where can I go to church?
I have been in Pentecost since I was about 6 yrs. old, I was in that church for about 30 Yrs. I was very quiet and passive and hardly ever voiced my opinion. And then we got a Dictator for a Pastor, and that is when I really started studying on my own. Finally God told us, my husband and I, to leave that church, which we did, very quietly.
I've had to leave other churches, that were not preaching the Word, the last one, the Pastor went into false doctrine even deeper than he was.
That was 13 yrs. ago. I'm more particular now.
well, I read the article and I didnt find anything I didnt disagree with.
Thanks Esaias
renee819
10-02-2013, 12:28 PM
a major reason men aren't as interested in 'church' as they used to be i believe has to do with the lack of teaching and modeling concerning the proper role men have in the church and in the home. A man who just wants to plop down on the couch after work and watch tv is a man who has no clue (or doesn't care) about his role as a spiritual leader in his home or in his church (if he even bothers with church). People don't see church by and large as the kingdom of god involved in governmental functions of ruling and taking dominion spiritually and morally, and having a positive dominion-oriented impact on society. So, men just don't see much there to interest them, because there's really not much there to begin with.
As for 'men's ministry', churches ought to be teaching men how to be leaders, how to be one who 'is heard in the gates' of society, how to lead their family in the ways of god. But this is hard to do when jesus is presented as a 'care bear' who exists to make everything all right or who exists to fulfill our wants. That is a presentation that is geared toward women, who need to feel secure and 'taken care of'. And that aspect of god's care is certainly necessary (can't leave women out!), but if that is the only type of god being presented, or if mostly being presented, men aren't going to recognise that as anything worth following.
Men need several things to be 'fulfilled' -
1. A woman to rescue.
2. A cause to fight and die for.
3. A brotherhood to belong to.
4. A king to follow.
Jesus is a most worthy king to follow - he literally 'went to hell and back' for us. What man would not feel honoured to follow such a glorious and faithful leader? He is a great king, the greatest king, and it is an honour and a priviledge to serve him faithfully and valiantly.
Normal men do not resonate with the idea of expressing sappy, sentimental 'love' to another man... 'jesus, come and take me away' just doesn't work with a normal guy.
Christ loved the church, and gave himself for it. In this manner men ought to love their wives. Yes, christ is head of the church, and the man is the head of the woman, but the power of the chivalric aspect of sacrificing oneself for the "love of one's youth" cannot be underestimated.
(of course, such a thing requires a woman who is not a quasi-lesbian brat who demands to 'wear the pants', but requires an actual woman with true femininity...)
christian men ought to feel they are a 'band of brothers', brothers in arms in the service of the king. Fighting a cause worth their efforts, worth dying for. What greater cause can there be than the salvation of mankind, and the enforcement of the pax christi upon this world of spiritual darkness?
All these things and more are essential to the god-endowed natural makeup of men... And most if not all these things are missing in 'church' these days. They are also missing in society, in general, having been replaced with effeminized phil donahue neutering (aka babylonian castration) and a false 'machismo' which is nothing but an evil caricature of true godly manhood.
There is a reason 'sports', especially football (american football, not that goofy european kickball game) has such a grip on men... The team is alike a military squad, coach is the leader, they work together to defeat the enemy... The exact same purpose was served by jousting and other tourneys in the medieval period, it provides a safe way for men to be men without actually needing to cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war and ravage some poor town in the next valley.
And simply trying to fit 'onward christian soldiers' into the worship service isn't going to cut it.
amen---preach it brother
Aquila
10-02-2013, 12:34 PM
Ok, I'll bite. How does it border on "blasphemy?"
I just think it can make one's relation to God far too common, not as reverent as it should be. But that's just me.
renee819
10-02-2013, 12:51 PM
No Ferd, I can't find one. There's probably a dozen in this area. I've went to several, and either, 1. Either they are strict on man-made rules for women. (no pant suits) or 2. They are so liberal that anything goes. Tying to keep up with the world in music, (The last one I went to, I wanted to put my hands over my ears, and was glad when the music stopped.
Trying to keep up with the world at Christmas and Easter. Absolutely Pagan Holidays, and the world knows it, but the church looks the other way.
Now tell me, where can I go to church?
I have been in Pentecost since I was about 6 yrs. old, I was in that church for about 30 Yrs. I was very quiet and passive and hardly ever voiced my opinion. And then we got a Dictator for a Pastor, and that is when I really started studying on my own. Finally God told us, my husband and I, to leave that church, which we did, very quietly.
I've had to leave other churches, that were not preaching the Word, the last one, the Pastor went into false doctrine even deeper than he was.
That was 13 yrs. ago. I'm more particular now.
I've told the family that I'd like to try a different church next Sunday. Not as much for my benefit, as for 2 little great granddaughters and a step grandson.
If I can go there at all, for their sake, I will.
Much of our "praise and worship" music boarders on blasphemy. :bolt
:yourock
Aquila
10-02-2013, 01:00 PM
Here's a question... and I know that this post with be REALLY controversial. Please read it all the way through before making a judgment so that you truly understand what I'm trying to say. Thank you for your patience and consideration on this my dearest brothers and sistersn, love you guys...
I love to study other traditions, religions, political views etc. However, in my studies I ran across a lot of information regarding the social structure of the family in Islam. One thing that I found is that in Islam a man can "discipline" not only his children... but also his wife. For example, in the Quran it's written:
"As to those women on whose part you see ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next,) refuse to share their beds, (and last,) beat them (lightly, if it is useful). But if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Most High, Most Great." ~ [4:34]
If a wife isn't obedient or is guilty of ill-conduct, a husband is permitted to approach it in the following manner:
1. admonish them: The husband is to verbally admonish her
2. send them to beds apart: If that fails the husband is to sexually desert his wife
3. beat them: If both measures above fail the husband is permitted to physically discipline his wife.
The husband, as the manager of the home and family, increases the pressure on his wife to bring her into obedience to him. If physically disciplining her doesn’t work they will move towards divorce. (Note that obedience to her husband is not required if he orders her to do something sinful, causes her physical pain, or something she is incapable of doing).
In Guillaume’s translation of Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasulallah" we read...
"You have rights over your wives, and they have rights over you. You have the right that they should not defile your bed and that they should not behave with open unseemliness. If they do, God allows you to put them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not with severity. If they refrain from these things and obey you, they have right to their food and clothing with kindness. Lay injunctions on women kindly, for they are your wards having no control of their persons."
In a way, this also implies that a man isn't bound to provide food and clothing for a disobedient or unseemly wife. An Islamic husband can lay injunctions on his wife, should she be incorrigible.
Also note that:
1.The beating is not to be vicious or severe.
2.Women are "wards" under men’s control. The Islamic definition of "ward" means a person who has been legally placed under the care of a guardian or court, or a person who is under the protection and control of another. Muslim wives are placed under their husband’s control.
Here are Muhammad Asad’s comments on disciplining a wife as found in his translation of the Quran.
"When the above Quran verse authorizing the beating of a refractory wife was revealed, the Prophet is reported to have said: "I wanted one thing, but God has willed another thing – and what God has willed must be best (see Manar V, 74). With all this, he stipulated in his sermon on the occasion of the Farewell Pilgrimage, shortly before his death, that the beating should be resorted to only if the wife "has become guilty, in an obvious manner, of immoral conduct", and that it should be done "in such a way as not to cause pain (ghayr mubarrih)"; authentic Traditions to this effect are found in Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Daud, Nasai and Ibn Majah. On the basis of these Traditions, all the authorities stress that this beating, if resorted to at all, should be more or less symbolic – "with a toothbrush, or some such thing" (Tabari, quoting the views of scholars of the earliest times), or even "with a folded handkerchief" (Razi); and some of the greatest Muslim scholars (e.g. Ash-Shafii) are of the opinion that it is just barely permissible, and should preferable be avoided: and they justify this opinion by the prophet’s personal feelings with regard to this problem."
The point is that in Islam a man has authority in his home. What makes that authority "real" is the ability to enforce said authority.
Imagine with me... What if the police were charged with keeping order in the streets and our neighborhoods... but was prohibited from using the force or means necessary to maintain that order? Take their guns, their Billy clubs, tasers, pepper spray, etc. And tell them that if they so much as raise their voice they can be charged with "menacing". Could such a police force keep order???
Now, let's turn to the Westernized Christian home and church. What can a man do to keep order in his home if his wife is behaving unseemly or is being brazenly disobedient and/or disrespectful??? In Western society a man has to be VERY careful. If you so much as raise your voice or "appear" to be threatening in any way... a woman can call the police and have you put in jail. Men have no authority in the home... if a woman doesn't wish to comply with God's order. And frankly, I have to ask... Is that real authority??? It's like being a "figurehead". Even the strongest and most manly of noble character cannot enforce order in his home... IF the wife isn't compliant.
Now... I've seen this time and time again... I've seen a woman desire her way in a situation and throw a virtual temper tantrum with screaming and even throwing dishes. And all too often I've seen the husband try to keep or regain his cool (so as to not go to jail or cause her to leave) and submit to her will... just to keep the peace and the family unit together. That's not authority. Sadly, if he so much as threatened her or touched her... she could press charges. Even if it were to grab her and sit her down to keep her from breaking all the dishes and possibly hurting herself! LOL
Now... I know some of our sisters are a bit hot under the collar wanting to know what my point is. My point is this... men have no authority... because men have no authority. lol
Now, I know that this is related to the home... but this "surrender" to female dominance and the emasculation of manhood propagated by society surely bleeds over into the church in a lot of cases. When it doesn't... the church is the ONLY institution wherein the male has authority to overrule a woman and has absolute authority. And still... a woman can get mouthy and leave the church and her husband begging her to come back. He has no authority to back up the husbandly guidance of, "Honey, I love you. You're going to church today. Now, get dressed."
All that said... am I wrong? What authority does a Christian husband really have in his family in Western society??? What measures can a Christian husband take to enforce the authority over the home that God has given him? It doesn't have to be "beating". I cringe at the notion. It's highly undesirable. What other means are available to the Christian man to actually maintain authority in the home? Without the ability to enforce authority... technically... there isn't any authority.
I'm not advocating physically disciplining one's wife. I just want to know how a man is to govern the home when he has no real way to enforce his guidance on the home? Because when one is only a figure head and he cannot govern the home... what else is there to do but take a seat on the lazy-boy and watch television, kill an occasional spider, take heavy items to the basement, and take out the trash??? lol He can "suggest" things. But in the end, we know the saying, "If momma aint happy... aint nobody happy." Shouldn't it be..., "If dad isn't happy... nobody is happy"? What does the church do to provide men that sense of responsibility, duty, and authority???
What are some of your thoughts???
Aquila
10-02-2013, 01:02 PM
:yourock
Thank you my brother.
n david
10-02-2013, 01:05 PM
:jaw
You must be single. :toofunny
Praxeas
10-02-2013, 01:06 PM
Renee how does having a HOME CHURCH fix the problem of attracting more men?
n david
10-02-2013, 01:07 PM
Renee how does having a HOME CHURCH fix the problem of attracting more men?
One word (or three, depending on where you live):
La-Z-Boy
RandyWayne
10-02-2013, 01:10 PM
One word (or three, depending on where you live):
La-Z-Boy
Works for me!
http://illblogthereforyoublog.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/archie-bunker.jpg
Aquila
10-02-2013, 01:11 PM
:jaw
You must be single. :toofunny
Nope. But sometime I wanna be. :toofunny
Aquila
10-02-2013, 01:13 PM
Renee how does having a HOME CHURCH fix the problem of attracting more men?
I can share my thoughts on home church and men. In my experience home churches give men more opportunity to share their thoughts and express their convictions instead of sitting in a pew being told by one man what those thoughts and convictions should be.
However, in all honesty... even house churches struggle with getting men "in there" and leading the home.
Aquila
10-02-2013, 01:13 PM
One word (or three, depending on where you live):
La-Z-Boy
:toofunny
Aquilla you are mixing participles here.
What authority does a Christian man have in Western society?
Well, in all actuality the same as a Muslim man in Western Society.
Regardless of ones religious affiliation, if a man in the west beats his wife, and if said wife is predisposed to calling the police, and pressing charges, the man goes to jail. A muslim cannot appeal to Sharia to escape punishment.
I know a man of African extract. (By 'African' I mean he was born there, then moved here...with his family)
He was born into a devout Christian home. He moved to America with his Wife and after they had been here for some time, his pastor got a call. He was in jail. Why? He beat his wife...she called the police.
Now what you need to know as it relates to your question is, that this man did nothing that would be considered wrong back in Africa where he came from. He didnt leave marks. He didnt beat his wife beyond what was acceptable within the culture they both came from....AS DEVOUT CHRISTIANS...in Africa.
But here they are in America, the wife figured out she was not in the west. Devout Christian or not, you dont get to do that in America.
Fast forward some number of years. They are both still very happily married, they are both very devout in their faith.
The man does not beat his wife...
Christ and his church, nor Muhammad and his god have anything to do with what a man may or may not do in the context of their authority.
Aquila
10-02-2013, 01:27 PM
Aquilla you are mixing participles here.
What authority does a Christian man have in Western society?
Well, in all actuality the same as a Muslim man in Western Society.
Regardless of ones religious affiliation, if a man in the west beats his wife, and if said wife is predisposed to calling the police, and pressing charges, the man goes to jail. A muslim cannot appeal to Sharia to escape punishment.
I know a man of African extract. (By 'African' I mean he was born there, then moved here...with his family)
He was born into a devout Christian home. He moved to America with his Wife and after they had been here for some time, his pastor got a call. He was in jail. Why? He beat his wife...she called the police.
Now what you need to know as it relates to your question is, that this man did nothing that would be considered wrong back in Africa where he came from. He didnt leave marks. He didnt beat his wife beyond what was acceptable within the culture they both came from....AS DEVOUT CHRISTIANS...in Africa.
But here they are in America, the wife figured out she was not in the west. Devout Christian or not, you dont get to do that in America.
Fast forward some number of years. They are both still very happily married, they are both very devout in their faith.
The man does not beat his wife...
Christ and his church, nor Muhammad and his god have anything to do with what a man may or may not do in the context of their authority.
Good point.
I can only see a real difference if we compare Islamic societies to Westernized societies.
But that doesn't really answer my question...
What does the church do in our Westernized society to provide men that sense of identity, responsibility, duty, and authority in the home? Back in the day I felt the need to "govern my home" after a good sermon on being a Christian husband... it sounded really good in church and even the ladies praised God and "Amen-ed" the preacher. However, as soon as we got on the road and began discussing where we were going to go eat... or as soon as we discussed dividing chores and allowing for one of us to get out and do routine vehicle maintenance... it was obvious that it was a lost cause. lol
What is the church doing to help men find their identity... as men? Governors of their homes... and deacons of the church? What tools does the church provide men with relation to their God given roles in both the church and the home?
n david
10-02-2013, 01:28 PM
If men started withholding sex or beating their wives in an effort to get them in line....1) there would be a lot more affairs; 2) there were be an even higher number of divorces; 3) there would probably even be a spike in homicides from domestic disputes. :lol
Now lets look at the authority of a Christian man.
In the first case, any authority I may have as a Christian in a marriage comes from God. And only from God.
If I am not following Christ, I have no authority. If I am not willing to do as Christ instructs (giving all up to and including my own precious life) then I have no autority.
If I have chosen to marry outside the faith, or if my wife makes the choice to step outside the faith, then I can have no expectation of authority in a biblical sense.
I MUST follow Christ. doing so will limit the demands I make. I will not make demands of my wife, or my children that stand outside the context of my faith. If I make some stand on biblical principle, then I can be assured that my Godly wife will also be moved on by the same spirit that guides me to follow my lead.
if however, my demands stand outside of the principles grounded in Holy Writ, then I can also be assured that any appeal to authority will fall on hollow ground (Not Hallowed).
I must also recognize that my wife is my help mate. She is not my property or my ward as stated in the muslim tradition. Therefore, wisdom must recognize that as such her council and desires... so long as we are both following Christ... is vital to our relationship/partnership.
Aquila
10-02-2013, 01:30 PM
If men started withholding sex or beating their wives in an effort to get them in line....1) there would be a lot more affairs; 2) there were be an even higher number of divorces; 3) there would probably even be a spike in homicides from domestic disputes. :lol
lol
I see your point.
Aquila
10-02-2013, 01:36 PM
Now lets look at the authority of a Christian man.
In the first case, any authority I may have as a Christian in a marriage comes from God. And only from God.
If I am not following Christ, I have no authority. If I am not willing to do as Christ instructs (giving all up to and including my own precious life) then I have no autority.
If I have chosen to marry outside the faith, or if my wife makes the choice to step outside the faith, then I can have no expectation of authority in a biblical sense.
I MUST follow Christ. doing so will limit the demands I make. I will not make demands of my wife, or my children that stand outside the context of my faith. If I make some stand on biblical principle, then I can be assured that my Godly wife will also be moved on by the same spirit that guides me to follow my lead.
if however, my demands stand outside of the principles grounded in Holy Writ, then I can also be assured that any appeal to authority will fall on hollow ground (Not Hallowed).
I must also recognize that my wife is my help mate. She is not my property or my ward as stated in the muslim tradition. Therefore, wisdom must recognize that as such her council and desires... so long as we are both following Christ... is vital to our relationship/partnership.
So essentially... the Christian husband has authority in the eyes of Heaven only(?). Maybe I'm not understanding you. Because frankly, in Western society if a wife becomes a little devil... unless she cheats on him, the Christian man is truly hamstrung. He might be able to withhold sex from her... but then he gives her a right to grievance, he isn't taken seriously. And some women would simply wait him out... because women have the advantage with sex in most cases that I'm aware of... it's the man who will break down for the sake of relations.
But all of that really isn't the heart of my point/question. What is the CHURCH doing to help men find male identity and authority as it relates to the church and the Christian home? What has the church done for men lately?
Perhaps in the West... even the church is against the wall. Much like with teaching on disciplining children. The church might advocate spanking... but the wrong person hear about a parent spanking their child and it's suddenly a case for CPS. The church talks about manhood... but beyond "outings" there's really very little that calls to the primal soul of the Christian male. The primal soul that longs to roar and be heard. To hunt and to take prey. The desire to be victorious. The desire to truly "govern" the home. That primal call to lead and to be followed. The primal need to be... respected.
Many men suffer from laziness. No doubt. However, I think that when it comes to men who have (or had) been attending church for longer periods of time... the issue is a broken spirit and confusion concerning their roll in both the church and the home. A lot of men find themselves sitting in their lazy boys because they aren't able to do much else without facing "a woman's fury". A wife can quickly inform her husband that he isn't going on the men's retreat... Summer cleaning is on the same weekend. lol And in church... they are expected to attend, sit, listen, do the obligatory shout and clap... then go home and keep momma happy. As a man... you have to essentially be quiet and do what your told from the Mrs... and the pulpit. While you're essentially required to make everyone happy and do what they require of you... Who is making you happy? Men are increasingly retreating into worlds of fantasy because in fantasy land they are powerful, desired, and respected. In real life... we're essentially... sider killers and heavy lifters for the Mrs. In many homes the Mrs. even demands to manage the bills. God forbid in these homes if the husband were to day, "Honey, you've been doing a great job. But... I think God desires me to manage the bills and regulate our spending." Boy oh boy... that man is going to get it! LOL
In a way... what does it mean to be a man? What's cool about being a guy? Eh... I don't buy tampons. That's about it. lol (jk)
What can the church give us who experience or have experienced this???
I hope I'm making some sense. I'm trying to put words to a very deep feeling/emotion. Something we men often struggle with. Maybe I'm doing a terrible job. :(
Esaias
10-02-2013, 02:04 PM
http://www.christiandomesticdiscipline.com/
:shocked::bolt:jaw:uhoh:blink:runhills:faint
Praxeas
10-02-2013, 02:10 PM
I can share my thoughts on home church and men. In my experience home churches give men more opportunity to share their thoughts and express their convictions instead of sitting in a pew being told by one man what those thoughts and convictions should be.
However, in all honesty... even house churches struggle with getting men "in there" and leading the home.
So...men don't go to church because they can't share their feelings? Yet the same system also means women can't share either....
So men don't go because they want to share their feelings and women do go because they don't want to share their feelings?
What planet are YOU from?:heeheehee
Aquila
10-02-2013, 02:11 PM
I remember sermons on manhood, fatherhood, and being a husband.
But I could never quite get it into practice. And... I rarely ever really saw it in practice. Even the pastor would cater to the desires of his wife with regards to church functions etc.
A man does as his wife desires.
A man tries to manage the kids... unless the wife thinks he's being "too strict".
A man gives a significant portion of his money to the church.
A man has to live by and even "try" to enforce the standards set by his pastor.
What does attending church do for the man on the practical level?
I think that's why many men would rather watch Rambo than attend church. It requires a lot... but there isn't anything substantial that a man gets out of it that he can hang his hat on.
There are some things I've read about regarding Islamic cultures. Many of those things I find undesirable. However, in those countries... if a man roars... the family listens. They KNOW it is their duty. And there are consequences if they don't.
Over here... eh... a wife and kids can roll their eyes at dad. And what can he do? And even the church is powerless to get the family to listen to dad in many cases.
We're the stuff of the buffoonery we see on sitcoms. The bumbling father who "tries" to be a man... only to create a massive problem... a problem that is resolved by the wife and children... with the man apologizing in the end at his wife's feet. Sometimes it makes for good comedy. However, when it begins to become real... it's far more sinister.
Aquila
10-02-2013, 02:13 PM
So...men don't go to church because they can't share their feelings? Yet the same system also means women can't share either....
So men don't go because they want to share their feelings and women do go because they don't want to share their feelings?
What planet are YOU from?:heeheehee
Nope. Not quite what I mean. I told you I'm doing a terrible job at explaining what I'm trying to say. lol
In a house church... an elder reads a passage and speaks about it. Every man present can comment on the passage and even comment on the elder's words. I've seen older men turn a younger elder around on a topic with the younger elder thanking the older man for his wisdom, insight, and knowledge. It can be a powerful experience. That older man would typically have to keep his thoughts to himself and sit in that pew... clapping and getting behind the pastor... even if the pastor were wrong on a topic or needed it developed more fully. Men can contribute more to the discussion in a house church. And some house churches separate the men from the women for these sessions. Among the men it can be powerful, intellectually challenging, brutally honest, and even tender and broken. But with the ladies there... it only goes so deep and stops most of the time.
n david
10-02-2013, 02:14 PM
Eh... I don't buy tampons. That's about it. lol (jk)
You mean your wife doesn't call you on your way home...."Honnnnnnnney, would you stop by the store and get me some tampons, please?" And you don't want to buy just tampons. Who wants to stand in line with just tampons. So you have to buy a bunch of other junk you don't really need to try and hide the tampons in the middle of the pack of stuff.
:toofunny
n david
10-02-2013, 02:16 PM
http://www.christiandomesticdiscipline.com/
:shocked::bolt:jaw:uhoh:blink:runhills:faint
Thanks! I clicked on the link and my work PC gave me a "This site is BLOCKED for "Alternative/Sexual" content," in BIG BOLD letters.
What in the world is on that site!?! Maybe I don't want to know! :lol
Aquila
10-02-2013, 02:21 PM
You mean your wife doesn't call you on your way home...."Honnnnnnnney, would you stop by the store and get me some tampons, please?" And you don't want to buy just tampons. Who wants to stand in line with just tampons. So you have to buy a bunch of other junk you don't really need to try and hide the tampons in the middle of the pack of stuff.
:toofunny
Been there and done that! See... we don't even have that claim to ourselves. :lol
Women have essentially invaded nearly every aspect of manhood. And it's not their fault... it's society. Our society turns the "Boys Club" into the "Boys & Girls Club". "Guss' Gym" has become the "Community Fitness Center". But down the street... we have "Ladies Premier Fitness"... and they've turned my application for membership down six times!!! LOL!
Here's something interesting... listen to the announcement of a women's retreat and the atmosphere gets all flighty and light. Ladies laughing and talking about the fun they are going to have. Mention a men's retreat... there is almost a tangible angst and groaning among the women. A heaviness to the atmosphere. And rest assured... the pastor cleared it with his wife to make sure he wasn't needed during that weekend. lol
Sometimes I think women dread a pastor standing up and truly informing the men as to what it truly means to be heads of their homes. And sadly... the authority only goes as far as... the Mrs. will allow it. No matter how you look at it... that's not headship. Western society has emasculated manhood and written laws that have shaped our society to the point wherein, to a man... the church is just another civic duty. A symbolic action. And after a while... it becomes far too taxing if you aren't getting any personal reward out of it. I know it sounds selfish... but let's face it. The church/leadership is there to serve the body. Not the body the leadership. What is the church/leadership given men that gives them true meaning and identity in the body and in their family???
Esaias
10-02-2013, 02:23 PM
So...men don't go to church because they can't share their feelings? Yet the same system also means women can't share either....
So men don't go because they want to share their feelings and women do go because they don't want to share their feelings?
What planet are YOU from?:heeheehee
If men are going to a house church so they can 'share their feelings' they are effeminate and so is that house church.
A proper biblical church will have men who go to 'speak in the gates' as it were, and be about the Kingdom's business. This means church discipline, doctrinal teaching and examination, etc, as well as the manifestation of spiritual gifts.
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. (2 Tim 2:2)
Men are to be learning the teachings of Jesus, and how to transmit that knowledge to others.
Men are to be teachers, leaders, and examples. Some are to become deacons (ministers, servants of the church) and bishops (overseers, elders). Some are 'go forth' spreading the word through whatever gift God has given them.
The church is not supposed to be an 'event' 2 or 3 times a week where people do a sing-a-long, have an emotional catharsis, listen to a 'grand speech', dump money into a plate, and then go home back to their regularly scheduled lives.
Teaching, singing (the purpose of which is to teach and admonish), praying, exhorting one another, ministering to one another, etc should be the regular activity of the church.
Men will learn to be men, fathers, husbands, leaders. Women will learn to be mothers, wives, learning to guide the house. Children will learn to GROW UP into MEN and WOMEN.
No 'program', whether modern church or house church, is going to get it done. It takes a revamping of our entire paradigm and worldview concerning the purpose of mankind in this earth, the role of God's people in this world, the nature and character of God's Kingdom, the purpose and mission of the church, family, societal roles, etc etc etc.
A 'new heavens and a new earth', in a sense.
Esaias
10-02-2013, 02:25 PM
Thanks! I clicked on the link and my work PC gave me a "This site is BLOCKED for "Alternative/Sexual" content," in BIG BOLD letters.
What in the world is on that site!?! Maybe I don't want to know! :lol
It's about 'christian domestic discipline', a website devoted to arguing that Christian woman are to submit their husbands, and that the men are to provide discipline, including corporal punishment.
Includes biblical arguments promoting the same.
I didn't find anything graphically offensive, but then I only read one article on 'biblical justification'.
n david
10-02-2013, 02:28 PM
Been there and done that! See... we don't even have that claim to ourselves. :lol
Women have essentially invaded nearly every aspect of manhood. And it's not their fault... it's society. Our society turns the "Boys Club" into the "Boys & Girls Club". "Guss' Gym" has become the "Community Fitness Center". But down the street... we have "Ladies Premier Fitness"... and they've turned my application for membership down six times!!! LOL!
Here's something interesting... listen to the announcement of a women's retreat and the atmosphere gets all flighty and light. Ladies laughing and talking about the fun they are going to have. Mention a men's retreat... there is almost a tangible angst and groaning among the women. A heaviness to the atmosphere. And rest assured... the pastor cleared it with his wife to make sure he wasn't needed during that weekend. lol
Sometimes I think women dread a pastor standing up and truly informing the men as to what it truly means to be heads of their homes. And sadly... the authority only goes as far as... the Mrs. will allow it.
This is true! :toofunny
n david
10-02-2013, 02:29 PM
It's about 'christian domestic discipline', a website devoted to arguing that Christian woman are to submit their husbands, and that the men are to provide discipline, including corporal punishment.
Includes biblical arguments promoting the same.
I didn't find anything graphically offensive, but then I only read one article on 'biblical justification'.
Weird. Then again, filters are a bit touchy and not always correct.
Aquila
10-02-2013, 02:30 PM
If men are going to a house church so they can 'share their feelings' they are effeminate and so is that house church.
A proper biblical church will have men who go to 'speak in the gates' as it were, and be about the Kingdom's business. This means church discipline, doctrinal teaching and examination, etc, as well as the manifestation of spiritual gifts.
And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. (2 Tim 2:2)
Men are to be learning the teachings of Jesus, and how to transmit that knowledge to others.
Men are to be teachers, leaders, and examples. Some are to become deacons (ministers, servants of the church) and bishops (overseers, elders). Some are 'go forth' spreading the word through whatever gift God has given them.
The church is not supposed to be an 'event' 2 or 3 times a week where people do a sing-a-long, have an emotional catharsis, listen to a 'grand speech', dump money into a plate, and then go home back to their regularly scheduled lives.
Teaching, singing (the purpose of which is to teach and admonish), praying, exhorting one another, ministering to one another, etc should be the regular activity of the church.
Men will learn to be men, fathers, husbands, leaders. Women will learn to be mothers, wives, learning to guide the house. Children will learn to GROW UP into MEN and WOMEN.
No 'program', whether modern church or house church, is going to get it done. It takes a revamping of our entire paradigm and worldview concerning the purpose of mankind in this earth, the role of God's people in this world, the nature and character of God's Kingdom, the purpose and mission of the church, family, societal roles, etc etc etc.
A 'new heavens and a new earth', in a sense.
Excellent post.
Instead of men needing to share their feelings... perhaps we should say that men should be able to speak their minds, be heard, and allowed to rise up and teach more in the body.
Aquila
10-02-2013, 02:34 PM
Here's a lite challenge. Ensure that you're duties at home are caught up. Ensure that no events are transpiring over the weekend. Then simply inform your wife that you'll be going fishing all weekend... just you and God.
Watch what happens. If your wife lowers her gaze or looks up at you inspired with encouragement for you going... you have a good woman. And indeed you are head of your home.
However, if you're told that you're not leaving this weekend because of something she's already planned... and had not informed of... there are some headship issues. lol
P.S.
It might be wise for you to come home early at an odd hour of the evening just to ensure that her reasons for encouraging you to leave were pure. lol (jk)
If your woman is encouraging and helpful with your roll as a man... come home early. And bring her something she'll enjoy. She deserves it. However, she might be disappointed that she doesn't have the house to herself all weekend. lol
RandyWayne
10-02-2013, 02:41 PM
I often find it hilarious how so many women, when describing the type of man they are looking for, go into some description of an overly sensitive "sissified" type character, yet they ALL seem to know, on a genetic level, what a real man is.
Case in point:
"It's all so boring here, Margot. There's nothing but playboys and tennis pros."
"If only I could find a real man!"
http://www.jamesbond-shop.com/Kell_Tyler_Linda_The_Living_Daylights.jpg
<Sound of parachute on top of the boat as Bond lands on the roof.>
"I need to use your phone. She'll call you back."
http://www.filmchronicles.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/living014.2.jpg
"Who are you?"
"Bond. James Bond."
"Exercise control, here. I'll report in an hour."
http://www.007museum.com/Kell_Tyler_as_Linda_The_Living_Daylights.jpg
"Won't you join me?"
http://www.007museum.com/Kell_Tyler_The_Living_Daylights.jpg
"Better make that two."
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120915002434/video151/images/thumb/d/d7/The_Living_Daylights_Bond_50_%281987%29_-_Clip_A_Real_Man/300px-The_Living_Daylights_Bond_50_%281987%29_-_Clip_A_Real_Man.jpg
Aquila
10-02-2013, 02:43 PM
I often find it hilarious how so many women, when describing the type of man they are looking for, go into some description of an overly sensitive "sissified" type character, yet they ALL seem to know, on a genetic level, what a real man is.
Case in point:
"I need to use your phone. She'll call you back."
http://www.filmchronicles.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/living014.2.jpg
"Who are you?"
"Bond. James Bond."
http://www.007museum.com/Kell_Tyler_as_Linda_The_Living_Daylights.jpg
"Won't you join me?"
http://www.007museum.com/Kell_Tyler_The_Living_Daylights.jpg
"Better make that two."
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120915002434/video151/images/thumb/d/d7/The_Living_Daylights_Bond_50_%281987%29_-_Clip_A_Real_Man/300px-The_Living_Daylights_Bond_50_%281987%29_-_Clip_A_Real_Man.jpg
:thumbsup
A man who is in charge... and knows what he wants.
Aquila
10-02-2013, 02:44 PM
Sadly... many women wouldn't know what to do with such a man if they met one in real life.
RandyWayne
10-02-2013, 02:46 PM
Sadly... many women wouldn't know what to do with such a man if they met one in real life.
Your right. For the most part they've been trained by society to NOT want that type of man -yet they nearly all strongly do on some level.
Aquila
10-02-2013, 02:49 PM
Randy's post brings up another thing... male sexuality is a rather touchy subject in Christianity. Here's Bond making it clear that he's flirting...
As Christian men... we're almost expected to be a-sexual beings until after marriage. Everything is sin until you get married... even looking. I was told that to even fantasize about the woman you wanted to marry was a sin. I told him... "If I can't imagine or see myself sleeping with her. I'm not marrying her." And he rebuked me. I don't even think he thought about what I was really saying.
Everything about a man's desire is potential hell fire in Christianity. It's not that way in many other religions. Is the church a place where a man can be proud to be a man... and have the desires of a man? Or must he disguise he's manhood behind a religious vanier? Many men bear a near constant sense of guilt... for just being men.
It shocked me about how down right practical and frank Islam is about male desire.
RandyWayne
10-02-2013, 02:52 PM
Randy's post brings up another thing... male sexuality is a rather touchy subject in Christianity. Here's Bond making it clear that he's flirting...
As Christian men... we're almost expected to be a-sexual beings until after marriage. Everything is sin until you get married... even looking. I was told that to even fantasize about the woman you wanted to marry was a sin. I told him... "If I can't imagine or see myself sleeping with her. I'm not marrying her." And he rebuked me. I don't even think he thought about what I was really saying.
Everything about a man's desire is potential hell fire in Christianity. It's not entire that way in other religions. Is the church a place where a man can be proud to be a man... and have the desires of a man? Or must he disguise he's manhood behind a religious vanier?
It shocked me about how down right practical and frank Islam is about male desire.
Despite a whole book of the Bible describing that very act, and in glowing terms!
<For Chris. I edited that original post to include more of the original dialogue and an additional picture to tie it all together.>
So essentially... the Christian husband has authority in the eyes of Heaven only(?). Maybe I'm not understanding you. Because frankly, in Western society if a wife becomes a little devil... unless she cheats on him, the Christian man is truly hamstrung. He might be able to withhold sex from her... but then he gives her a right to grievance, he isn't taken seriously. And some women would simply wait him out... because women have the advantage with sex in most cases that I'm aware of... it's the man who will break down for the sake of relations.
But all of that really isn't the heart of my point/question. What is the CHURCH doing to help men find male identity and authority as it relates to the church and the Christian home? What has the church done for men lately?
Perhaps in the West... even the church is against the wall. Much like with teaching on disciplining children. The church might advocate spanking... but the wrong person hear about a parent spanking their child and it's suddenly a case for CPS. The church talks about manhood... but beyond "outings" there's really very little that calls to the primal soul of the Christian male. The primal soul that longs to roar and be heard. To hunt and to take prey. The desire to be victorious. The desire to truly "govern" the home. That primal call to lead and to be followed. The primal need to be... respected.
Many men suffer from laziness. No doubt. However, I think that when it comes to men who have (or had) been attending church for longer periods of time... the issue is a broken spirit and confusion concerning their roll in both the church and the home. A lot of men find themselves sitting in their lazy boys because they aren't able to do much else without facing "a woman's fury". A wife can quickly inform her husband that he isn't going on the men's retreat... Summer cleaning is on the same weekend. lol And in church... they are expected to attend, sit, listen, do the obligatory shout and clap... then go home and keep momma happy. As a man... you have to essentially be quiet and do what your told from the Mrs... and the pulpit. While you're essentially required to make everyone happy and do what they require of you... Who is making you happy? Men are increasingly retreating into worlds of fantasy because in fantasy land they are powerful, desired, and respected. In real life... we're essentially... sider killers and heavy lifters for the Mrs. In many homes the Mrs. even demands to manage the bills. God forbid in these homes if the husband were to day, "Honey, you've been doing a great job. But... I think God desires me to manage the bills and regulate our spending." Boy oh boy... that man is going to get it! LOL
In a way... what does it mean to be a man? What's cool about being a guy? Eh... I don't buy tampons. That's about it. lol (jk)
What can the church give us who experience or have experienced this???
I hope I'm making some sense. I'm trying to put words to a very deep feeling/emotion. Something we men often struggle with. Maybe I'm doing a terrible job. :(
Remeber what Paul said. if an unsaved spouse decides to leave, let them.
The simple fact is, for Christians submitted to Christ, we do not have recourse outside of the Household of Faith. There is no Western Civilization code of conduct that applies. period.
You are in the church or you are not. if you are not, then you are subject to the constructs of the society you live in and you are stuck with ever wind that blows.
But within the Church, you are constrained by your faith and protected by your faith.
That is the beauty of submission to God. It frees you from the cultural rot.
n david
10-02-2013, 02:55 PM
It shocked me about how down right practical and frank Islam is about male desire.
Ever visit a black church? I've visited several, and every Pastor was very blunt about the home, marriage, sex, raising kids, etc. They don't beat around the bush. :lol
Aquila
10-02-2013, 02:58 PM
Remeber what Paul said. if an unsaved spouse decides to leave, let them.
The simple fact is, for Christians submitted to Christ, we do not have recourse outside of the Household of Faith. There is no Western Civilization code of conduct that applies. period.
You are in the church or you are not. if you are not, then you are subject to the constructs of the society you live in and you are stuck with ever wind that blows.
But within the Church, you are constrained by your faith and protected by your faith.
That is the beauty of submission to God. It frees you from the cultural rot.
Or it leads to a society wherein increasing numbers of people (namely men) don't see the relevance of the church in their daily lives and families.
We wondered why men hate or dislike the church. It's not manly. It doesn't provide for the needs of men or address the issues men face in the sense of being... men. We're told that we have headship. But that headship is something that we merely have "faith" in and if momma doesn't have the same level of faith in it... guess what... you ain't going on that men's retreat if it's time for Spring cleaning. C'ause your faith might move mountains... but it won't move momma. lol
Aquila
10-02-2013, 03:00 PM
Ever visit a black church? I've visited several, and every Pastor was very blunt about the home, marriage, sex, raising kids, etc. They don't beat around the bush. :lol
Yes. Amen, and I loved it. I went a "Spirit Filled" back church with my girlfriend. The pastor walked up to us and was awesome. At one point he even pulled me aside and said, "Hey now. If y'all two are 'getting busy'... y'all need to come to our Couples in Transition group." LOL
I was shocked. LOL
n david
10-02-2013, 03:10 PM
Yes. Amen, and I loved it. I went a "Spirit Filled" back church with my girlfriend. The pastor walked up to us and was awesome. At one point he even pulled me aside and said, "Hey now. If y'all two are 'getting busy'... y'all need to come to our Couples in Transition group." LOL
I was shocked. LOL
:thumbsup
navygoat1998
10-02-2013, 03:46 PM
Yes. Amen, and I loved it. I went a "Spirit Filled" back church with my girlfriend. The pastor walked up to us and was awesome. At one point he even pulled me aside and said, "Hey now. If y'all two are 'getting busy'... y'all need to come to our Couples in Transition group." LOL
I was shocked. LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WC8Kwkxk-BI
Praxeas
10-02-2013, 03:57 PM
Nope. Not quite what I mean. I told you I'm doing a terrible job at explaining what I'm trying to say. lol
In a house church... an elder reads a passage and speaks about it. Every man present can comment on the passage and even comment on the elder's words. I've seen older men turn a younger elder around on a topic with the younger elder thanking the older man for his wisdom, insight, and knowledge. It can be a powerful experience. That older man would typically have to keep his thoughts to himself and sit in that pew... clapping and getting behind the pastor... even if the pastor were wrong on a topic or needed it developed more fully. Men can contribute more to the discussion in a house church. And some house churches separate the men from the women for these sessions. Among the men it can be powerful, intellectually challenging, brutally honest, and even tender and broken. But with the ladies there... it only goes so deep and stops most of the time.
So you believe the reason more men don't go to church is that they don't get to tell the preacher he doesnt have a clue what that verse means in front of everyone else?
Praxeas
10-02-2013, 04:00 PM
This is true! :toofunny
Ture!
RandyWayne
10-02-2013, 04:02 PM
So you believe the reason more men don't go to church is that they don't get to tell the preacher he doesnt have a clue what that verse means in front of everyone else?
I think your somewhat misrepresenting what Chris was intending to say. He is not stressing the negative of not being able to challenge a pastor. He is stressing the positive of an environment where one can question someone in real time.
Praxeas
10-02-2013, 04:11 PM
I think your somewhat misrepresenting what Chris was intending to say. He is not stressing the negative of not being able to challenge a pastor. He is stressing the positive of an environment where one can question someone in real time.
Well I was kidding however it seems he was not saying "ask the Pastor questions" but rather give their own opinion on the passage.
Esaias
10-02-2013, 04:50 PM
1 Cor 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
renee819
10-02-2013, 08:12 PM
Renee how does having a HOME CHURCH fix the problem of attracting more men?
I have no idea! I don't know as it would, but if the men that did come, were taught that they were to be godly men. And women taught how to be a godly woman, to love their husbands, to TRAIN their children. Not let the TV do it, or the schools do it.
Any man that loved his wife as he did his own self, would have to have an awfully hardhearted wife, for her not to love him back.
A man nor a wife is not to manipulate each other or the children. Children have to be trained, and yes, I believe in spanking the children.
If you notice, in God's Word, He has told us many things to do, or not do. But He does not make anyone do anything. I thank God, that He sometimes disciplines us, if we are disobedient, and again, that is for out training. You can still go against the discipline and end up hardhearted, with your conscience seared as with a hot iron.
1 Corinthians 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.
(That throws withholding sex, out the window)
6 But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.
10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
16 For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?
These are the things that they should be taught before they are married and if they do not agree, they shouldn't marry. They should agree on how they will raise their children. How they will handle money. That the husband is the Head, that means that he is responsible for the family. That doesn't mean that he is the big boss, and everyone should shake in their boots if they disagree. If they disagree, they should be allowed to say so. And have a good reason. And a kind and gentle husband will listen and not be too arrogant to change his mind. A wife should not deliberately go against her husbands wishes.
And a husband has no right to demand that the family do things----just because he said so. He should always consider that the Word says, “that a man is to love his wife as he does his own body.”
These are some of the things that I would teach, along with 1 Cor 13. And possibly when the Husband saw that his wife really does love him, he might just come to a home meeting to see what was going on.
thaddaeus417
10-02-2013, 08:44 PM
Timely discussion as a group from my church was recently talking about this. I will say that my church is the opposite with mostly men being the spiritual strength of the congregation.
I visit many local churches and some are almost void of men. My Father has never attended church and growing up the women went to church on Sunday, men did guy stuff. My observation is that men just don't like to be told what to do, what they can not do.
Recently at work a group was talking religion and one guy spoke up and said "I just don't want a church that tells me what I can't do." That satisfied the group and the conversation was over. Men are just dedicated heathens.
Praxeas
10-02-2013, 09:54 PM
1 Cor 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
You believe that Paul was speaking about someone quoting a passage and teaching on it and then other "prophets" near giving their opinion on that verse??
Praxeas
10-02-2013, 09:58 PM
I have no idea! I don't know as it would, but if the men that did come, were taught that they were to be godly men. And women taught how to be a godly woman, to love their husbands, to TRAIN their children. Not let the TV do it, or the schools do it.
You don't need to be in someones living room in order to do that Renee. You can do that anywhere
renee819
10-03-2013, 04:21 AM
Originally Posted by renee819 View Post
I have no idea! I don't know as it would, but if the men that did come, were taught that they were to be godly men. And women taught how to be a godly woman, to love their husbands, to TRAIN their children. Not let the TV do it, or the schools do it.
Praxeas wrote,
You don't need to be in someones living room in order to do that Renee. You can do that anywhere
I know. But is it being taught in our churches? Or are they afraid that the men will leave?
There is no doubt about it, our society has feminized men. And the men that has realized this, and rebelled against it, sometimes become brutes. Or feel that they have to prove their manhood by acting tough.
And women have been taught to be masculine. Women should have freedom, but anytime anything changes in society, IN THE WORLD, it is always taken to the extreme. And those that don't go along are thought to be fanatical. And now that the Church, is catering to the world, Christians don't know anymore where to draw the line. And it is hard to know. I love the book, “The Titus 2 Woman.” There should be more like it and coming from our ranks.
The Church should hold the line, but not with man-made Laws. But with the TEACHING and TRAINING of LOVE, and with LOVE. I wish God would anoint me to write such a book, but so far, I don't feel capable. And Christians sitting on the fence and have gotten a taste of the world and a taste for money, would listen to me, in a book, about like those on this Forum listens.
Esaias
10-03-2013, 06:49 AM
You believe that Paul was speaking about someone quoting a passage and teaching on it and then other "prophets" near giving their opinion on that verse??
I believe he meant just what he said.
Aquila
10-03-2013, 07:20 AM
So you believe the reason more men don't go to church is that they don't get to tell the preacher he doesnt have a clue what that verse means in front of everyone else?
No. lol
I'm saying that essentially we don't have a voice. We cant' share what we might know or think about a topic. We can't question the teacher for more information. We can't openly discuss differences of opinion on various passages, subjects, or positions. We're expected to sing along, clap, throw our 10% in the plate, and just play along with the performance. Any commentary, any sharing, any questioning has to be done afterwards for a quick two minutes while the pastor performs meet-and-greet, or in a scheduled office visit that rarely goes as well as we imagined it.
House church provides a more conversational format. An interactive dialogue. And unless something is rank heresy, most house churches I know are very tolerant of individual convictions or opinions.
But all of that is just ONE dimension to the issue. Beyond the church just expecting men to be silent observers... the church does little else. I mean, what has the church done for men lately??? I'm talking about the practical day to day manhood and fatherhood. I'm talking about getting us grounded in our identity as men, father's, and husbands.
Don't get me wrong... I've seen a few churches have successful men's ministry. But most allow it to fizzle out... the pastor doesn't really "get in there"... and if the pastor does the men hide their true selves and don't open up because the political fallout of confessing one's faults or sins could destroy us... etc.
Men have no REAL authority in the home.
Men have no REAL voice in the church (accept a select few).
Men have no REAL haven to open up and be healed emotionally or spiritually.
I still think I'm not explaining it well. lol
Aquila
10-03-2013, 07:27 AM
Well I was kidding however it seems he was not saying "ask the Pastor questions" but rather give their own opinion on the passage.
The house church paradigm that I'm used to has an elder reading a passage. He shares his thoughts or insights that the Holy Spirit has given him. Then he opens the group up to share there thoughts and/or experiences concerning the subject matter, the passage, or even any of the comments he has made. It's amazing how much insight some men have but they never have a venue to share it. Some young people are wise beyond their years. Some older men who rarely speak unload about 45 minutes of wisdom and insight that builds on what the elder talked about... sometimes someone cracks and begins confessing sin they struggle with or shame or depression or feelings of being a failure. They break and weep and we pray for them, plead the blood over them, and administer the grace of God in the power of the Holy Ghost. It can be so beautiful, everyone has a voice. Everyone has something to contribute. Some men will write a song and bring it to sing. Others will be moved by a particular hymn or worship song and bring the CD and we sing along with it... tears streaming down. And the FOOD. Dude... nobody eats like house churches. The food is abundant and awesome homemade goods. Some even serve some rather nice wine. But that depends on the house church and the convictions they've arrived at as a group. The ladies gather and come down stairs and warmly sit buy the husbands... what they talked about we don't know. But the atmosphere is different. They look at us with... respect and tenderness. Yes... my favorite house church gathers with men and women gathering separately when we dig into the lesson. But something is just different... more personal. Beautiful.
Aquila
10-03-2013, 08:05 AM
And a husband has no right to demand that the family do things----just because he said so. He should always consider that the Word says, “that a man is to love his wife as he does his own body.”
These are some of the things that I would teach, along with 1 Cor 13. And possibly when the Husband saw that his wife really does love him, he might just come to a home meeting to see what was going on.
Renee,
Overall I enjoyed your post. But as a male, I have some questions regarding the matter of authority in the home. You said that a man shouldn’t be a big boss. And you’re right. However, someone does have to have final say… even if that means MAKING the family do something. For example (this is a true story)… a man’s wife had a friend from high school that showed back up in her life. It had been years. That friend had become mixed up in drugs, alcohol, prostitution, theft, etc. Now, this “friend” was fleeing an abusive boyfriend. She had gone from boyfriend to boyfriend and had nowhere to go. Here’s how the conversation went… (names and specifics have been changed to protect the identities of those involved)
Wife: Do you remember Jenny?
Husband: Yes. Why?
Wife: She called my mom’s house the other day trying to reach me and mom gave her my number. She’s going through a REAL hard time. ***Wife explains all that Jenny had been through within the past few years***. Here’s the issue honey… she has absolutely nowhere to go. Her parents won’t take her in and she has a 14 year old son. What do you say we take her in for just a month to help her get back on her feet? She can stay in the guest room upstairs.
Husband: Wow hon… that’s a tall order. Just out of the blue like this? Why won’t her parents take her in?
Wife: She was on drugs when staying with them last time… and she stole some things. But she says she’s been clean for nearly 6 months.
Husband: I really don’t think this is a good idea. She’s running from an abusive boyfriend. Can’t she stay in a shelter? They might be able to give her some assistance and get her on her feet.
Wife: She has a 14 year old son, Brian. A shelter is no place for a woman with a son. Anything could happen.
Husband: Honey, I think you’re approaching this with your heart and not really thinking it through. I don’t think it will be a good idea. We don’t know if she’s still on drugs or not… her own family won’t take her in. We have two children. You just got a job babe, things have been so tough financially, it’s time we start enjoying the fruits of our labors. We barely made it buy just the four of us… now we’re to take on a woman and her 14 year old son??? Honey, I don’t think it’s going to be a good idea.
Wife: I don’t understand why you can’t show some Christian compassion! What if we’re the only witness she’ll ever get?!
Husband: Honey… this is our home.
Wife: You mean this is YOUR home!
Husband: No, it’s OUR home. But I don’t think this is a good idea. It’s not a good idea because we don’t know if she’s really clean. She stole things from her mom and dad’s when she stayed there and they don’t’ want her to come back. We are nearly broke financially and the light is at the end of the tunnel if we don’t take on any extra burdens….
Wife: So a friend in need is a BURDEN to you???
Husband: No, that’s not what I’m saying. We stand a chance at getting on our feet financially and…
Wife: Oh… so it’s all about MONEY to you???
Husband:No.
Wife: That’s what you keep saying!
Husband: That’s not what I mean… I’m saying that we can’t…
Wife: Why can’t you be more positive???!
Husband: Honey… we really shouldn’t do this.
Wife: She’s my friend, this is my house too and we’re going to help her!
Husband: Really??? I’m the husband of this home, the father of this house. This is a terrible idea and I say absolutely NOT. You won’t hear me out on why and so I have to simply tell you NO.
Wife: Tell me NO??? What right have you to tell me NO???
Husband: I’m the man of this home. It’s my job to protect and provide for this home. You aren’t taking any concerns that the home might face seriously…
Wife: Oh… so now I DON’T love our family!!!???
Husband: That’s not what I’m saying…
Wife: She’s coming here and we’re going to help her.
Husband: Absolutely NOT.
Wife: You don’t have the right to say NO!
Husband: What is it with you??? Can’t you see I’m trying to do my friggin’ job as a husband!!!
Wife: No you’re NOT. You’re being an #%$@#$#!!!
Husband: (Gets up and slams the door as he walks out side for fresh air)
Wife: (Wife comes storming out the door) Oh, so now your SLAMMING things and scaring people!
Husband: No I’m not. I’m just trying to…
Wife: You’re being an #%&*^#$!!! Is what you’re doing!
Husband: (Raises voice) I said NO and that’s final!!!
Wife: Don’t you raise your voice at me… I can call the police and stay with mom tonight!
Husband: I’ve done NOTHING WRONG.
Wife: You’re slamming doors and screaming at me. The neighbors can here you! You’re scaring everyone!
Husband: No I’m not!!!
Wife: Where’s my phone!!!
Husband: What is WRONG with you??? I’m just trying to protect our family!!!
Wife: You’re an un-Christian and hateful $^$#@$^%&%$!
Husband: Oh, and calling me names is real Christian isn’t it…???
Wife: I’m calling mom… (At this husband goes into the house to lick his wonds, neighbors looking at him like he’s a monster while wife sits on the porch and cries into the phone to her mother)
So the wife leaves and comes back the next day. They have an almost repeat of the conversation. He relents and allows her “friend” to stay with them. Her friend was only supposed to stay a month and pay $100 in rent… she paid nothing. The husband had to fit the bill for all the extra food, even running this woman around for her errands. The utility bills are inflated because the woman watches television and leaves the lights on in various rooms. Her son brings marijuana into the house (wife makes it a Hallmark honesty lesson and insists that they be allowed to stay). All in all… the woman stayed nearly five months. Today… they are terribly behind on the electric bill. Water is turned off. Gas & Heating is turned off and the fall is gearing up. One night this woman storms out in a huff and doesn’t come back, leaving her son at the house. When the couple gets back home from work the next day… the woman and her son are gone. She also took kitchen appliances, silverware, and some jewelry with her.
Shouldn’t he have been able to “make” his wife not do this to their home???
Where was this man’s authority in this situation???
What could he have reasonably done to enforce his will for the protection of the family???
In an Islamic culture… this would have ended very differently. Why? Because in such a culture the husband actually has "real" authority over the home as God intended.
n david
10-03-2013, 09:26 AM
If the story is true, I hope the wife has apologized for the junk she said and did to put them in this mess. Not that an apology would do much, honestly.
Shouldn’t he have been able to “make” his wife not do this to their home???
Sounds like he tried, but she was rebellious and wouldn't listen to any kind of reason. She wanted to call the police!? Seriously? She has some serious issues which need to be addressed with Godly counseling.
Where was this man’s authority in this situation???
In the trash. The scenario described shows she does NOT respect her husband, his authority, nor his decisions. Honestly, it sounds like a broken marriage which without God's help and Godly counseling could end up in a divorce.
What could he have reasonably done to enforce his will for the protection of the family???
I don't see how he could have done anything. The woman threatened to call the police on him. She was completely over-reacting, too emotionally involved to think clearly, and show complete disrespect. If it were my wife, it'd be hard to get over this. I'm sure in time I could, but it would get pretty bad. I wouldn't be able to trust her.
renee819
10-03-2013, 09:49 AM
Originally Posted by renee819
And a husband has no right to demand that the family do things----just because he said so. He should always consider that the Word says, “that a man is to love his wife as he does his own body.”
These are some of the things that I would teach, along with 1 Cor 13. And possibly when the Husband saw that his wife really does love him, he might just come to a home meeting to see what was going on.
Aquila, you are probably asking the wrong person about that problem. My husband and I did those things so many times. Mostly with teen agers and mostly his family. We both agreed, but it turned out really hard on us and our 4 children. Some we helped, and they later thanked us for it. Some I don't see that we did help.
Renee,
Overall I enjoyed your post. But as a male, I have some questions regarding the matter of authority in the home. You said that a man shouldn’t be a big boss. And you’re right. However, someone does have to have final say… even if that means MAKING the family do something. For example (this is a true story)… a man’s wife had a friend from high school that showed back up in her life. It had been years. That friend had become mixed up in drugs, alcohol, prostitution, theft, etc. Now, this “friend” was fleeing an abusive boyfriend. She had gone from boyfriend to boyfriend and had nowhere to go. Here’s how the conversation went… (names and specifics have been changed to protect the identities of those involved)
Wife: Do you remember Jenny?
Husband: Yes. Why?
Wife: She called my mom’s house the other day trying to reach me and mom gave her my number. She’s going through a REAL hard time. ***Wife explains all that Jenny had been through within the past few years***. Here’s the issue honey… she has absolutely nowhere to go. Her parents won’t take her in and she has a 14 year old son. What do you say we take her in for just a month to help her get back on her feet? She can stay in the guest room upstairs.
Husband: Wow hon… that’s a tall order. Just out of the blue like this? Why won’t her parents take her in?
Wife: She was on drugs when staying with them last time… and she stole some things. But she says she’s been clean for nearly 6 months.
Husband: I really don’t think this is a good idea. She’s running from an abusive boyfriend. Can’t she stay in a shelter? They might be able to give her some assistance and get her on her feet.
Wife: She has a 14 year old son, Brian. A shelter is no place for a woman with a son. Anything could happen.
Husband: Honey, I think you’re approaching this with your heart and not really thinking it through. I don’t think it will be a good idea. We don’t know if she’s still on drugs or not… her own family won’t take her in. We have two children. You just got a job babe, things have been so tough financially, it’s time we start enjoying the fruits of our labors. We barely made it buy just the four of us… now we’re to take on a woman and her 14 year old son??? Honey, I don’t think it’s going to be a good idea.
Wife: I don’t understand why you can’t show some Christian compassion! What if we’re the only witness she’ll ever get?!
Husband: Honey… this is our home.
Wife: You mean this is YOUR home!
Husband: No, it’s OUR home. But I don’t think this is a good idea. It’s not a good idea because we don’t know if she’s really clean. She stole things from her mom and dad’s when she stayed there and they don’t’ want her to come back. We are nearly broke financially and the light is at the end of the tunnel if we don’t take on any extra burdens….
Wife: So a friend in need is a BURDEN to you???
Husband: No, that’s not what I’m saying. We stand a chance at getting on our feet financially and…
Wife: Oh… so it’s all about MONEY to you???
Husband:No.
Wife: That’s what you keep saying!
Husband: That’s not what I mean… I’m saying that we can’t…
Wife: Why can’t you be more positive???!
Husband: Honey… we really shouldn’t do this.
Wife: She’s my friend, this is my house too and we’re going to help her!
Husband: Really??? I’m the husband of this home, the father of this house. This is a terrible idea and I say absolutely NOT. You won’t hear me out on why and so I have to simply tell you NO.
Wife: Tell me NO??? What right have you to tell me NO???
Husband: I’m the man of this home. It’s my job to protect and provide for this home. You aren’t taking any concerns that the home might face seriously…
Wife: Oh… so now I DON’T love our family!!!???
Husband: That’s not what I’m saying…
Wife: She’s coming here and we’re going to help her.
Husband: Absolutely NOT.
Wife: You don’t have the right to say NO!
Husband: What is it with you??? Can’t you see I’m trying to do my friggin’ job as a husband!!!
Wife: No you’re NOT. You’re being an #%$@#$#!!!
Husband: (Gets up and slams the door as he walks out side for fresh air)
Wife: (Wife comes storming out the door) Oh, so now your SLAMMING things and scaring people!
Husband: No I’m not. I’m just trying to…
Wife: You’re being an #%&*^#$!!! Is what you’re doing!
Husband: (Raises voice) I said NO and that’s final!!!
Wife: Don’t you raise your voice at me… I can call the police and stay with mom tonight!
Husband: I’ve done NOTHING WRONG.
Wife: You’re slamming doors and screaming at me. The neighbors can here you! You’re scaring everyone!
Husband: No I’m not!!!
Wife: Where’s my phone!!!
Husband: What is WRONG with you??? I’m just trying to protect our family!!!
Wife: You’re an un-Christian and hateful $^$#@$^%&%$!
Husband: Oh, and calling me names is real Christian isn’t it…???
Wife: I’m calling mom… (At this husband goes into the house to lick his wonds, neighbors looking at him like he’s a monster while wife sits on the porch and cries into the phone to her mother)
So the wife leaves and comes back the next day. They have an almost repeat of the conversation. He relents and allows her “friend” to stay with them. Her friend was only supposed to stay a month and pay $100 in rent… she paid nothing. The husband had to fit the bill for all the extra food, even running this woman around for her errands. The utility bills are inflated because the woman watches television and leaves the lights on in various rooms. Her son brings marijuana into the house (wife makes it a Hallmark honesty lesson and insists that they be allowed to stay). All in all… the woman stayed nearly five months. Today… they are terribly behind on the electric bill. Water is turned off. Gas & Heating is turned off and the fall is gearing up. One night this woman storms out in a huff and doesn’t come back, leaving her son at the house. When the couple gets back home from work the next day… the woman and her son are gone. She also took kitchen appliances, silverware, and some jewelry with her.
Shouldn’t he have been able to “make” his wife not do this to their home???
Where was this man’s authority in this situation???
What could he have reasonably done to enforce his will for the protection of the family???
In an Islamic culture… this would have ended very differently. Why? Because in such a culture the husband actually has "real" authority over the home as God intended.
In the an Islamic culture, in an Islamic country, the husband can also kill his wife and children if they go to another Religion. And probably other things as well. I certainly wouldn't choose them as an example.
Yes, I the example you gave, the man should have put his foot down, and refused to take them in. His wife might have went to her mothers, or pouted a few days and if she left for good, that would have been a poor excuse to leave. Meaning there wasn't much love to start with. If she was actually cursing, I don't see how she can claim to be a Christian.
10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away
If she leaves for that reason, let her go. And if she stays and is mad, the husband should still try to treat her civilly, probably won't be any lovey-dovey, but eventually she would or should see the wisdom of his words, when she hears of all the things the 'other woman' got into.
Remember, I said, “That the husband is the Head, that means that he is responsible for the family. That doesn't mean that he is the big boss, and everyone should shake in their boots if they disagree. If they disagree, they should be allowed to say so. And have a good reason. And a kind and gentle husband will listen and not be too arrogant to change his mind. A wife should not deliberately go against her husbands wishes."
He gave her good reasons. He probably should have emphasized the spiritual side more, And she deliberately went against his wishes.
He wouldn't be demanding she obey---”just because he said so.” But as the Head of the family, he gave her good and sound reasons why they shouldn't do that. Even though he relented, which he shouldn't have done, the wife is at fault, more than the husband, but they both really made a mistake. And no doubt learned from it, or should have.
How could he used more authority? He shouldn't have relented. Absolutely refused. and if the woman came any way. He should have told her to leave. if she wouldn't, then call the police. (That would have been very hard for me to do. But then, I'm not the Head of the family.)
What his wife did after that, was up to her.
The problem with the husband calling the police to ask the wife's friend to leave is that usually (and I think by law) the police will side with the women. All they have to do is say that he raised his voice, was angry, slammed a door, made them feel uncomfortable in any way, and he is asked to leave his own home. If a woman does the same thing, it is viewed as being under duress with the husband somehow causing it to happen, or as a kind of "self defense". Police will haul away a woman, however, if she succeeds in verbally "pushing the officer's button" or strikes the officer.
I really like this thread because it deals with a lot of the issues I had to deal with in regards to my marriage of 23 years that ended several months ago. I agree with a lot of what Aquilla is posting here.
renee819
10-03-2013, 10:30 AM
Originally Posted by Esaias
1 Cor 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
Praxeas wrote,
You believe that Paul was speaking about someone quoting a passage and teaching on it and then other "prophets" near giving their opinion on that verse??
Ibelieve it goes much deeper than that.
1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
I believe Paul is speaking more about 'unknown tongues and prophecy” than about teaching, unless we count teaching as prophecy. When unknown tongues are interpreted, they become 'prophecy. But all is supposed to be for the edifying of the assembly.
I believe that, when the church meets, wherever they meet, every member should have something to say, if they have been in prayer and meditation on the Word, and God has given them something, “every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.”
:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted
“one by one” Why? “that all may learn, and all may be comforted”
And yes, I believe that the teaching went forth as dialog.
And no, we are not to check our brains in the coat closet at the door. I believe that we should judge everything that we hear in church. Otherwise, it is brainwashing.
Esaias
10-03-2013, 10:32 AM
Wife: You mean this is YOUR home!
Husband: No, it’s OUR home. But I don’t think this is a good idea. It’s not a good idea because we don’t know if she’s really clean. She stole things from her mom and dad’s when she stayed there and they don’t’ want her to come back. We are nearly broke financially and the light is at the end of the tunnel if we don’t take on any extra burdens….
Wife: So a friend in need is a BURDEN to you???
Husband: No, that’s not what I’m saying. We stand a chance at getting on our feet financially and…
Wife: Oh… so it’s all about MONEY to you???
Husband:No.
Wife: That’s what you keep saying!
Husband: That’s not what I mean… I’m saying that we can’t…
Wife: Why can’t you be more positive???!
Husband: Honey… we really shouldn’t do this.
Wife: She’s my friend, this is my house too and we’re going to help her!
Husband: Really??? I’m the husband of this home, the father of this house. This is a terrible idea and I say absolutely NOT. You won’t hear me out on why and so I have to simply tell you NO.
Wife: Tell me NO??? What right have you to tell me NO???
Husband: I’m the man of this home. It’s my job to protect and provide for this home. You aren’t taking any concerns that the home might face seriously…
Wife: Oh… so now I DON’T love our family!!!???
Husband: That’s not what I’m saying…
Wife: She’s coming here and we’re going to help her.
Husband: Absolutely NOT.
Wife: You don’t have the right to say NO!
Husband: What is it with you??? Can’t you see I’m trying to do my friggin’ job as a husband!!!
Wife: No you’re NOT. You’re being an #%$@#$#!!!
[/QUOTE]
At this point the man should calmly say 'She is not staying here and if she shows up I will have her arrested for trespassing. If you don't like call your momma and pack your things. The kids are staying here. Once you've had time to consider the direction you're headed in, we can talk about it.'
And then go about his business. If she absolutely REFUSES to submit to his authority - assuming they are both Christians and he has already explained the BIBLE authority for him to make the decision he has made - then she needs to leave.
And he would need to make that absolutely clear.
An no, she doesn't get to run off with the kids and the checkbook, either.
Which reminds me, the fact she is working outside the home while they have two children is a big red flag to begin with, and probably is a major contributor to the fight. Meaning, this family is not operating Biblically with either person in their proper role.
It looks to me like this is a typical American family - both man and wife work outside the home, she has her career, he has his, the government schools or some private school or some nursery business (day care) raises the kids during the day, they probably do not have 'family worship' on a regular basis which would include Dad teaching his family the Scriptures book by book and chapter by chapter and verse by verse... in short, the family had some serious issues long before the 'friend in need' came on the scene, issues not readily apparent, but waiting to froth to the surface as soon as testing time arrived...
As a solution, the husband would need to firmly let the woman know he is not going to open his home to anyone until the home is operating according to Biblical order, period, full stop. That would be the first priority.
If she refused, then he would need to start following biblical guidelines for church discipline.
If she still refused, she would need to be 'excommunicated' from the church, from the Lord's Table, from fellowship with any and all members of the church (including her husband) until she either repented or abandoned him.
We are not our own, we who have named Christ as Lord have given up our will and ways of doing things, and have pledged to obey him. And we will prove the honesty of our word, one way or the other, sooner or later.
Aquila
10-03-2013, 10:33 AM
My point is that in our culture a man has been reduced to the bumbling baffoon often portrayed in evening sitcoms. A man's voice isn't really of any value unless it's in a subculture of... other males. In my experience even women in the church are unrestrained. They pay lip service to the notion of male headship and authority... but when they absolutely have to submit... all that goes out the window. And who makes the final decision??? The woman.
I've had this experience too... I was managing the bills. I had to call and make a payment arrangement. They explain to me why they cannot make a payment arrangement. I ask if there are any acceptions or anything else they can do. The person on the telephone (male or femal, doesn't matter) assures me that there isn't. So I go home and tell the little lady that they told me there was nothing they could do. She gets irate and treats me like I'm a 15 year old kid that can't do anything right. She gets on the telephone and calls the same number I called and gets a representative. Within five minutes they work out a payment arrangement regarding the bill... for her! That has happened to me time and time again. I began bickering so much about it, I told her that she could call them if she wanted a payment arrangement. We were behind on rent once. I called the landlord and asked if he could take a late or partial payment. He lectured me about how he was in business to make money and that our lease was a "contract". Then he implied that he could evict us if we didn't pay. Well... I tell her, she calls him... guess what... he'll take a late payment all of the sudden. It got to me soooooo much I began pointing out EVERY time this happened when we were out in public. I asked a clerk at Wal-Mart where an item was... they sighed and explained that they weren't sure and directed me to an isle. She asked... the employee got on the radio... two more employees showed up... and they helped her find it! She was beside herself. She'd always rolled her eyes at me when I complained that I wasn't even going to ask and said I'd rather find it myself. We were at Korger's grocery store one night. We had our two kids with us. We have a tradition... we typically go to the bakery and get free "kiddie cookies" for the kids as a treat, if they are well behaved. She asked me to go and request them. The lady behind the counter said they only had one left. So, instead of getting one cookie and watching the kids fight over it or breaking it in half and have to listen to the kids bicker about only having half a cookie... I told momma that they only had one cookie left. She walks up to the counter and asks for two cookies... happily the lady opens another box and gives her two cookies! LOL
What gives???
Aquila
10-03-2013, 10:36 AM
At this point the man should calmly say 'She is not staying here and if she shows up I will have her arrested for trespassing. If you don't like call your momma and pack your things. The kids are staying here. Once you've had time to consider the direction you're headed in, we can talk about it.'
And then go about his business. If she absolutely REFUSES to submit to his authority - assuming they are both Christians and he has already explained the BIBLE authority for him to make the decision he has made - then she needs to leave.
And he would need to make that absolutely clear.
An no, she doesn't get to run off with the kids and the checkbook, either.
Which reminds me, the fact she is working outside the home while they have two children is a big red flag to begin with, and probably is a major contributor to the fight. Meaning, this family is not operating Biblically with either person in their proper role.
It looks to me like this is a typical American family - both man and wife work outside the home, she has her career, he has his, the government schools or some private school or some nursery business (day care) raises the kids during the day, they probably do not have 'family worship' on a regular basis which would include Dad teaching his family the Scriptures book by book and chapter by chapter and verse by verse... in short, the family had some serious issues long before the 'friend in need' came on the scene, issues not readily apparent, but waiting to froth to the surface as soon as testing time arrived...
As a solution, the husband would need to firmly let the woman know he is not going to open his home to anyone until the home is operating according to Biblical order, period, full stop. That would be the first priority.
If she refused, then he would need to start following biblical guidelines for church discipline.
If she still refused, she would need to be 'excommunicated' from the church, from the Lord's Table, from fellowship with any and all members of the church (including her husband) until she either repented or abandoned him.
We are not our own, we who have named Christ as Lord have given up our will and ways of doing things, and have pledged to obey him. And we will prove the honesty of our word, one way or the other, sooner or later.
I absolutely agree with you.
However, in all seriousness... few churches that I know would take the issue seriously enough to excommunicate her or deny her the Lord's Supper. And I'd even wager that after she laid the situation at the pastor's feet in the guise of offering "Christian charity" to a friend and her son, with the possiblity of them attending... the pastor would tell the husband that he's being too harsh. I've been there done that one too. It's a big joke.
Esaias
10-03-2013, 10:37 AM
My point is that in our culture a man has been reduced to the bumbling baffoon often portrayed in evening sitcoms. A man's voice isn't really of any value unless it's in a subculture of... other males. In my experience even women in the church are unrestrained. They pay lip service to the notion of male headship and authority... but when they absolutely have to submit... all that goes out the window. And who makes the final decision??? The woman.
I've had this experience too... I was managing the bills. I had to call and make a payment arrangement. They explain to me why they cannot make a payment arrangement. I ask if there are any acceptions or anything else they can do. The person on the telephone (male or femal, doesn't matter) assures me that there isn't. So I go home and tell the little lady that they told me there was nothing they could do. She gets irate and treats me like I'm a 15 year old kid that can't do anything right. She gets on the telephone and calls the same number I called and gets a representative. Within five minutes they work out a payment arrangement regarding the bill... for her! That has happened to me time and time again. I began bickering so much about it, I told her that she could call them if she wanted a payment arrangement. We were behind on rent once. I called the landlord and asked if he could take a late or partial payment. He lectured me about how he was in business to make money and that our lease was a "contract". Then he implied that he could evict us if we didn't pay. Well... I tell her, she calls him... guess what... he'll take a late payment all of the sudden. It got to me soooooo much I began pointing out EVERY time this happened when we were out in public. I asked a clerk at Wal-Mart where an item was... they sighed and explained that they weren't sure and directed me to an isle. She asked... the employee got on the radio... two more employees showed up... and they helped her find it! She was beside herself. She'd always rolled her eyes at me when I complained that I wasn't even going to ask and said I'd rather find it myself. We were at Korger's grocery store one night. We had our two kids with us. We have a tradition... we typically go to the bakery and get free "kiddie cookies" for the kids as a treat, if they are well behaved. She asked me to go and request them. The lady behind the counter said they only had one left. So, instead of getting one cookie and watching the kids fight over it or breaking it in half and have to listen to the kids bicker about only having half a cookie... I told momma that they only had one cookie left. She walks up to the counter and asks for two cookies... happily the lady opens another box and gives her two cookies! LOL
What gives???
Your wife is sweeter than you are?
Aquila
10-03-2013, 10:39 AM
I was thinking... if my memory serves me correctly... in early America there used to be something referred to as the "rule of thumb". It wasn't a formal law... but supposedly a man had the right to discipline his wife and children with a stick as long as it wasn't any thicker than his thumb.
While I don't advocate beatings and abuse. The premise that would allow such a thing in at a cultural level demonstrates a cultural respect for male authority.
My point is this... authority isn't authority unless it can be used and enforced. Sadly... male headship in America, be it in the church or at home is merely an illusion that only applies when the parties involved agree to allow it to apply. "Hey, I know. Let's get married and play headship!" lol
renee819
10-03-2013, 10:40 AM
The problem with the husband calling the police to ask the wife's friend to leave is that usually (and I think by law) the police will side with the women. All they have to do is say that he raised his voice, was angry, slammed a door, made them feel uncomfortable in any way, and he is asked to leave his own home. If a woman does the same thing, it is viewed as being under duress with the husband somehow causing it to happen, or as a kind of "self defense". Police will haul away a woman, however, if she succeeds in verbally "pushing the officer's button" or strikes the officer.
I really like this thread because it deals with a lot of the issues I had to deal with in regards to my marriage of 23 years that ended several months ago. I agree with a lot of what Aquilla is posting here.
Yes, that's probably true. We live in an upside down, world.
Esaias
10-03-2013, 10:46 AM
I was thinking... if my memory serves me correctly... in early America there used to be something referred to as the "rule of thumb". It wasn't a formal law... but supposedly a man had the right to discipline his wife and children with a stick as long as it wasn't any thicker than his thumb.
While I don't advocate beatings and abuse. The premise that would allow such a thing in at a cultural level demonstrates a cultural respect for male authority.
My point is this... authority isn't authority unless it can be used and enforced. Sadly... male headship in America, be it in the church or at home is merely an illusion that only applies when the parties involved agree to allow it to apply. "Hey, I know. Let's get married and play headship!" lol
Now your back to that 'Christian domestic discipline' thing again lol.
A qualification for an elder is that he 'rule his house well', otherwise he cannot be expected to 'rule the house of God'.
So then anyone in oversight of the local church must have a demonstrated track record of effective leadership in his own home. If a man wants to lead, he has to start with himself and his immediate family. He has to learn how to get Honey to properly submit - willingly. And that does not always require 'the rod', it more often than not requires an ability to persuade using both positive and negative motivations. It also requires a lot of prayer and self deiscipline, leading by example, etc.
A supervisor is not expected to literally BEAT his subordinates into submission. A father, while it may be necessary to spank a child, should be able to progress rather quickly beyond the rod and into other, more mature forms of motivation and persuasion. Leaders responsible for managing people must learn how and must be skilled in the ability of getting people to willingly agree to follow your leadership. Leadership 101.
Also, people have GOT to get back to an understanding of marriage and proper roles. We must teach our children these things, and model these things for them in our own lives, because nobody else (for the most part) is going to do it.
renee819
10-03-2013, 10:56 AM
I was thinking... if my memory serves me correctly... in early America there used to be something referred to as the "rule of thumb". It wasn't a formal law... but supposedly a man had the right to discipline his wife and children with a stick as long as it wasn't any thicker than his thumb.
While I don't advocate beatings and abuse. The premise that would allow such a thing in at a cultural level demonstrates a cultural respect for male authority.
My point is this... authority isn't authority unless it can be used and enforced. Sadly... male headship in America, be it in the church or at home is merely an illusion that only applies when the parties involved agree to allow it to apply. "Hey, I know. Let's get married and play headship!" lol
That's why there should be much more teaching on these things in the church. But how can that be, when sometimes the Pastors wife rules the roost.? Or some of the best tithe payers are at fault?
Aquila
10-03-2013, 10:58 AM
Your wife is sweeter than you are?
Not really. I honestly think that it's because she is a woman. I've seen her work out late payments for various bills... the landlord... etc. I think that it's either sympathy for a "lady in distress" or ... in the case of the landlord... he thinks she's a "cutie".
There was a study on the effect of male voices and female voices on the male brain. When a male speaks to a male... the image centers of the brain activate. It's like we can visualize what's being said to us. However, when a woman speaks the centers of the brain that activate are those associated with complex sound, such as classical music.
What are the implications? If a woman is attractive or appealing a man can listen to her all evening all dreamy eyed like her every sound is music.
Or... a woman can speak to a man and if he doesn't focus his attention and purposefully TRY to picture and think about what she is saying... whatever she is saying is like a radio playing in the background. lol
I have a book about the physiological differences between men and women. We're vastly different. The way women's brains work... they rock word problems more than men on average. However, men rock geometry... because we can visualize the angles and cuts. Men have more muscle mass... and the adrenaline used to power the male is greater than that in a female. It's like asking... what takes more fule... a Volkswagon Beetle or an M1 Abrams Tank? The tank. Thus walking around the house cleaning can indeed make a man far more tired than a woman. Unless there is an element of danger to boost adrenaline. Also, women have abundant estrogen. Estrogen helps them sleep. In fact, it helps women achieve REM and deeper levels of sleep rather quickly. However, for the male to get down to that level of sleep it takes roughly 1 to two hours. So... if a man and woman go to bed and sleep eight hours... she'll feel like she got 8 hours of rest. He'll feel like he got 6. She thinks he is a big baby wanting more sleep and is lazy. Ladies... why does he fall asleep at the drop of a hat after work or being out and about all day when something needs to be done??? I'll tell you... because he's physiologically wiped out. Unless... again... there is an element of danger or something to get testosterone and adrenaline pumping. If there isn't... he's going to be grouchy and tired and you'll go through the rutine of saying, "Why are you so tired??? You got 7 hours of sleep last night, we laid down at 10!" Well... that was 7 hours of sleep for you. It may have only been 5 for him.
There's all kinds of differences that are physiological or biological. Women sometimes ride us like we're equals. We're not. We're tanks. Silver-Backs that protect the tribe... we demand a lot fo fuel and a lot of rest. Our brains also function differently when contemplating problems. Women easily see interdependent relationships. So they can plan how to get the kids up, breakfast made, kids off to school, hubby to work, get kids from school and to soccar practice, etc. Men visualize thought. It takes our brains longer to develop the images and to connect them. Ever wonder why you ask a question and he seems to stare off into space and come up with ideas that you dont' find workable because of a specific factor? That's why. Now he has to reprocess the images with the factor he left out... but by then... you've already resolved the issue by processing all the inderdependent relationships. lol
Your man isn't stupid... he's a man. A man.
Aquila
10-03-2013, 11:00 AM
Now your back to that 'Christian domestic discipline' thing again lol.
A qualification for an elder is that he 'rule his house well', otherwise he cannot be expected to 'rule the house of God'.
So then anyone in oversight of the local church must have a demonstrated track record of effective leadership in his own home. If a man wants to lead, he has to start with himself and his immediate family. He has to learn how to get Honey to properly submit - willingly. And that does not always require 'the rod', it more often than not requires an ability to persuade using both positive and negative motivations. It also requires a lot of prayer and self deiscipline, leading by example, etc.
A supervisor is not expected to literally BEAT his subordinates into submission. A father, while it may be necessary to spank a child, should be able to progress rather quickly beyond the rod and into other, more mature forms of motivation and persuasion. Leaders responsible for managing people must learn how and must be skilled in the ability of getting people to willingly agree to follow your leadership. Leadership 101.
Also, people have GOT to get back to an understanding of marriage and proper roles. We must teach our children these things, and model these things for them in our own lives, because nobody else (for the most part) is going to do it.
I agree to a lot of what you're saying.
I want to consider something though... it's only been within the past century that a more liberal notion of male authority has come into the home and church. 300 hundred years ago... a man would have been expected to "straighten" his wife or children out. And it was something shameful if he didn't. Even some black and white classic movies show men slapping their frantic and irrational wives. Today... that would be a major no no.
renee819
10-03-2013, 11:01 AM
now your back to that 'christian domestic discipline' thing again lol.
A qualification for an elder is that he 'rule his house well', otherwise he cannot be expected to 'rule the house of god'.
So then anyone in oversight of the local church must have a demonstrated track record of effective leadership in his own home. If a man wants to lead, he has to start with himself and his immediate family. He has to learn how to get honey to properly submit - willingly. And that does not always require 'the rod', it more often than not requires an ability to persuade using both positive and negative motivations. It also requires a lot of prayer and self deiscipline, leading by example, etc.
A supervisor is not expected to literally beat his subordinates into submission. A father, while it may be necessary to spank a child, should be able to progress rather quickly beyond the rod and into other, more mature forms of motivation and persuasion. Leaders responsible for managing people must learn how and must be skilled in the ability of getting people to willingly agree to follow your leadership. Leadership 101.
Also, people have got to get back to an understanding of marriage and proper roles. We must teach our children these things, and model these things for them in our own lives, because nobody else (for the most part) is going to do it.
amen amen and amen
Esaias
10-03-2013, 11:13 AM
I agree to a lot of what you're saying.
I want to consider something though... it's only been within the past century that a more liberal notion of male authority has come into the home and church. 300 hundred years ago... a man would have been expected to "straighten" his wife or children out. And it was something shameful if he didn't. Even some black and white classic movies show men slapping their frantic and irrational wives. Today... that would be a major no no.
There is a reason for that, and it ain't pretty.
Our society has been intentionally subverted.
'Babylonian captivity'. One of the first things Babylon did with captured Israelite males is castrate them.
Nothing new under the sun, just a more high-tech way of doing it.
MarieA27
10-03-2013, 11:19 AM
I think the problem is, is that people in these churches aren't truly taught their true roles as befitting to them according to the bible.. The men are not taught his role as a man, as a husband, and nor is the women taught her role as a woman in the church, as a wife. It seems that the women aren't taught how they're suppose to honor and respect their husbands even as with Sara and Abraham, wherein she called him lord (showing her reverence of him).And the man isn't truly taught how he is to lay down his life for his family as Christ did for the church. Also in this society, if the women are taught the biblical principles, they'll balk at it, and say that's old fashioned, that whatever the man can do, I can do, and that we're equal, and he has no right to be over me etc., And a lot of things seem to almost always go to the extreme. You'll either have the men having just about no authority, with the women acting as head of the household, and the men are only that in name. Or you'll have the women totally submissive, and the men acting almost as dictators, showing little care and compassion. It seems that it's rare for things to be in the middle, and balanced.
Also another thing, the main thing that is lacking, is the teaching of the true respect and fear of the Lord, and to do all things as if you're doing it unto Him. If you're conscience that God is looking and watching you, and judging you in your actions, you'll be more conscience of your actions and you'll act accordingly, not only because you love and respect your husband or your wife, but because you love God and you're living so as to not displease Him.
Aquila
10-03-2013, 11:21 AM
There is a reason for that, and it ain't pretty.
Our society has been intentionally subverted.
'Babylonian captivity'. One of the first things Babylon did with captured Israelite males is castrate them.
Nothing new under the sun, just a more high-tech way of doing it.
True that my brother.
Maybe society needs a Men's Liberation Movement. ;)
RandyWayne
10-03-2013, 11:21 AM
I agree to a lot of what you're saying.
I want to consider something though... it's only been within the past century that a more liberal notion of male authority has come into the home and church. 300 hundred years ago... a man would have been expected to "straighten" his wife or children out. And it was something shameful if he didn't. Even some black and white classic movies show men slapping their frantic and irrational wives. Today... that would be a major no no.
Well, sometimes people just need to step up and do what needs to be done!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0GW0Vnr9Yc
Aquila
10-03-2013, 11:25 AM
I had a neighbor who was a great guy... but man... he'd drink drink drink. As soon as he was home from work he started drinking. I was talking to him one night out on the porch and I asked him why he every day. He explained that if he didn't... he'd be doing those things he had to do like the lawn, maintenance on the car, fixing the plumbing in the basement, etc... and on top of that he'd have to do the dishes, mop the floors, vacuum the carpets, clean the bathroom etc.... while the Mrs. just sat there going over the A-B-C with the kids 300 times. lol
So... when he drinks... she leaves him alone after he gets the "men's work" done and manages her duties. lol
I don't advocate drinking... but some women are like that. I commend men that work, do the dirty jobs, heavy jobs, and the house work. Nothing wrong with it. But not all men are wired that way. Sometimes you have to find a way to set boundaries.
Aquila
10-03-2013, 11:27 AM
Well, sometimes people just need to step up and do what needs to be done!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0GW0Vnr9Yc
LOL!
You ain't right! LOL
But you gave me a thought... what if half the "domestic violence" and "menacing" charges brought up against men are men instinctively trying to get their homes back on line???
What if the way things were for thousands of years accommodates our actual design?
Not advocating beating one's wife and kids... just thinking about the image of a strong male figure that truly does rule his house well.
Originalist
10-03-2013, 11:31 AM
Today's music is catered to women... "Hold me in your arms" "take me to that secret place"
There are more. All these "Jesus is my boyfriend" songs need to go. I mean, you could sing a lot songs as worships songs as well as songs to your loved one. They're interchangeable.
"I'm desperate for you" "You're all I want and ever needed"
No songs that maginify the Name of Jesus, no songs that glorify the majesty and attributes of God, no songs much about the blood. It's all touchy feely now.
Aquila
10-03-2013, 11:36 AM
My major gripe is that without the ability to use authority... whatever the office is... one is just a figurehead for the actual authority. Again, imagine a police force without the ability to use force. Imagine a President who is elected and directed in his decisions by some secretive special interest. If someone in authority cannot take that authority and use it, possibly breaking a few eggs... is it real authority???
And so my association with Islam goes like this... the Qur'an and Islam seems to institutionalize this in it's law code. It honors men. It honors their authority. It honors their strength. It honors their desires. It honors men. Now, a lot of "traditional" customs prevail in Islamic countries. Those abuses are typically not found in the Qur'an or orthodox Islam. Islam gives a woman the right to divorce. Islam religiously codifies that women can own their own property. Islam provides a process for disciplining one's home (admonishment, separation/cold shoulder, and lastly corporal discipline). In Islamic societies Islam delivers to men. Even in divorce a woman keeps her things, her dowry, and the kids until like 9 years old. Then fathers are admonished to take their male children and raise them. Right or wrong... in many ways it delivers to men. Muslim Americans are gearing up to draft proposals for Islamic courts to manage issues relating to Islamic citizens. Now, I have some Constitutional problems with that. But again, they will be delivering to the faithful men among their number. What does the Church do in America for Christian men??? As a man... I don't really see anything of substance other than an ethic that only works if everyone in the home agrees. We go on men's retreats, talk about an illusive "headship" that never materializes in our homes if our wives aren't on board, beat on drums, and sleep outside. The church offers... a camping trip? LOL Will a camping trip really put a man back in the order that God COMMANDS that he be in? If the wife is humble and on board... it might work. But I pity the man who comes home from the men's retreat and finds that the dishes haven't been done all weekend. Dollars to doughnuts he's going to be told to do them... even if he wants to rest his back from hiking and sleeping on the ground all weekend. lol
So... is it any wonder why men don't find the church relevant to their lives and concerns?
Please understand... these are just thoughts on the subject.
Aquila
10-03-2013, 11:40 AM
"I'm desperate for you" "You're all I want and ever beeded"
No songs that maginify the Name of Jesus, no songs that glorify the majesty and attributes of God, no songs much about the blood. It's all touchy feely now.
Amen. And few songs about the absolute power of God against wickedness.
I like the Psalms of David... imagine, as a man, worshiping to something like this...
Save Me, O My God
A Psalm of David, when he fled from Absalom his son.
Psalms 3:1-8 (ESV)
1 O Lord, how many are my foes!
Many are rising against me;
2 many are saying of my soul,
there is no salvation for him in God. Selah
3 But you, O Lord, are a shield about me,
my glory, and the lifter of my head.
4 I cried aloud to the Lord,
and he answered me from his holy hill. Selah
5 I lay down and slept;
I woke again, for the Lord sustained me.
6 I will not be afraid of many thousands of people
who have set themselves against me all around.
7 Arise, O Lord!
Save me, O my God!
For you strike all my enemies on the cheek;
you break the teeth of the wicked.
8 Salvation belongs to the Lord;
your blessing be on your people! Selah
God used to be a God who arose and broke the faces of the wicked. Today... he's as soft as the mall Santa.
Imagine a God who symbolically portrays His passion for His people as a lover fantasizes about ravishing His beloved in ways that would make most churches blush (Song of Solomon).
Today... God is almost divorced from everything truly masculine. He's a "Father"... However, even His Father hood is emphasized as being warm and fuzzy... we don't see the Father who will slam the doors when angry and shake the rafters. We don't see the Father who hears a noise and grabs the shotgun in preparation to blow any threat to his family out of existence. In a way... like the men of the Church... God's been feminized... or perhaps softened is a better word. People gasp at the "Allah" of Islam... but he seems to have a lot more in common with the God of the Bible than what is portrayed in most contemporary churches.
n david
10-03-2013, 11:53 AM
Our God is greater, our God is stronger
God, You are higher than any other
Our God is healer, awesome in power
Our God, our God
And if our God is for us
Then who could ever stop us?
And if our God with us
Then what can stand against?
.
Aquila
10-03-2013, 11:54 AM
In short... I see men wanting a deal. Give us something we can truly walk away with that changes our lives and the structure of our families. Give us something that brings back honor and respect to manhood. Not the manhood propagated by pop-psychology. True BIBLICAL manhood and headship. Sadly... with America's culture today... I don't see how the church can deliver even if it had an idea on what to deliver.
Aquila
10-03-2013, 11:56 AM
Our God is greater, our God is stronger
God, You are higher than any other
Our God is healer, awesome in power
Our God, our God
And if our God is for us
Then who could ever stop us?
And if our God with us
Then what can stand against? .
That comes close. Give me details. Sometimes I want to hear about God driving a hook through their jaws and dragging them along the mountain range. I want to hear about how David didn't merely "slay" the giant. I want to know that David blasted him in the forehead with a stone, mounted his chest, and cut off his lifeless head with his own sword just so David could taunt the enemies of God with it. lol
And how in all that... David was imperfect (much like us)... a worshiper... and considered by God as a man after His own heart.
I want to know that my instincts, my desires, and my sense of being a male is truly valued. Sometimes... I feel like my time is wasted as the church panders to the notion of manhood, headship, and fatherhood.
n david
10-03-2013, 11:56 AM
Through You, I can do anything
I can do all things
Cause it's You who gives me strength
Nothing is impossible
Through You, blind eyes are open
Strongholds are broken
I am living by faith
Nothing is impossible
.
Esaias
10-03-2013, 11:57 AM
Amen. And few songs about the absolute power of God against wickedness.
I like the Psalms of David... imagine, as a man, worshiping to something like this...
Save Me, O My God
A Psalm of David, when he fled from Absalom his son.
Psalms 3:1-8 (ESV)
1 O Lord, how many are my foes!
Many are rising against me;
2 many are saying of my soul,
there is no salvation for him in God. Selah
3 But you, O Lord, are a shield about me,
my glory, and the lifter of my head.
4 I cried aloud to the Lord,
and he answered me from his holy hill. Selah
5 I lay down and slept;
I woke again, for the Lord sustained me.
6 I will not be afraid of many thousands of people
who have set themselves against me all around.
7 Arise, O Lord!
Save me, O my God!
For you strike all my enemies on the cheek;
you break the teeth of the wicked.
8 Salvation belongs to the Lord;
your blessing be on your people! Selah
God used to be a God who arose and broke the faces of the wicked. Today... he's as soft as the mall Santa.
Imagine a God who symbolically portrays His passion for His people as a lover fantasizes about ravishing His beloved in ways that would make most churches blush (Song of Solomon).
Today... God is almost divorced from everything truly masculine. He's a "Father"... However, even His Father hood is emphasized as being warm and fuzzy... we don't see the Father who will slam the doors when angry and shake the rafters. We don't see the Father who hears a noise and grabs the shotgun in preparation to blow any threat to his family out of existence. In a way... like the men of the Church... God's been feminized... or perhaps softened is a better word. People gasp at the "Allah" of Islam... but he seems to have a lot more in common with the God of the Bible than what is portrayed in most contemporary churches.
The Third Psalm is one our family uses in worship quite often, it's one of the first one's we learned. (We use the Scottish Metrical Psalter.)
O Lord, how are my foes increased;
Against me many rise!
Many say of my soul, for him
in God no succour lies.
Yet thou my shield and glory art
Th'uplifter of my head
I cried, and from his holy hill
the Lord me answer made
I laid me down to sleep, I waked
for God sustain-ed me
I will not fear tho ten thousands
set round against me be
Arise, O Lord, save me my God
for thou my foes hast stroke
all on the cheek-bone, and the teeth
of wicked men hast broke
Salvation doth appertain
unto the Lord alone
Thy blessing, Lord, for evermore
thy people is upon
n david
10-03-2013, 11:59 AM
I believe You're my healer
I believe You are all I need
I believe You're my portion
I believe You're more than enough for me
Jesus, You're all I need
Nothing is impossible for You
Nothing is impossible
Nothing is impossible for You
You hold my world in Your hands
.
n david
10-03-2013, 12:00 PM
God is fighting for us,
God is on our side
He has overcome,
Yes He has overcome
We will not be shaken,
We will not be moved
Jesus You are here
Carrying our burdens,
Covering our shame
He has overcome,
Yes He has overcome
We will not be shaken,
We will not be moved
Jesus You are here
I will live, I will not die
The resurrection power of Christ
Alive in me and I am free
In Jesus' Name
I will live, I will not die
I will declare and lift You high,
Christ revealed and I am healed
In Jesus' Name
God is fighting for us,
Pushing back the darkness
Lighting up the Kingdom
That cannot be shaken
In the Name of Jesus,
Enemy's defeated
And we will shout it out,
Shout it out
.
Esaias
10-03-2013, 12:05 PM
I may never march in the infan...
Oh wait..
lol
n david
10-03-2013, 12:06 PM
Blessed be the Name of the Lord
Blessed be Your Name
Blessed be the Name of the Lord
Blessed be Your glorious Name
You hear me when I call
You are my morning song
Though darkness fills the night
It cannot hide the light
Whom shall I fear
You crush the enemy
Underneath my feet
You are my sword and shield
Though troubles linger still
Whom shall I fear
I know who goes before me
I know who stands behind
The God of angel armies
Is always by my side
The one who reigns forever
He is a friend of mine
The God of angel armies
Is always by my side
My strength is in Your name
For You alone can save
You will deliver me
Yours is the victory
Whom shall I fear
Whom shall I fear
The God of angel armies
Is always by my side
.
Esaias
10-03-2013, 12:11 PM
what I like about the Psalms is:
1. They are unquestionably of Divine Inspiration.
2. They cover the entire range of human experience with God.
3. They glorify God.
4. They speak prophetically of Christ and thus teach doctrine.
5. They have no enforceable copyright.
n david
10-03-2013, 12:17 PM
I love the sing-the-Psalms crowd. :D
Here's one for them to put to music and sing:
5My wounds stink and are corrupt because of my foolishness.
6I am troubled; I am bowed down greatly; I go mourning all the day long.
7For my loins are filled with a loathsome disease: and there is no soundness in my flesh.
:lol
You'd have people dancing in the living room of your house church with that one! :happydance :happydance :happydance
Esaias
10-03-2013, 12:17 PM
BTW, one problem with 'contemporary worship music' is not just the lyrics (or lack thereof), but the melodies and instrumentation used. A lot of songs nowadays just SOUND like pop music or what guys would probably call 'girl music', designed to invoke sentimental gushes of emotion.
But that's a problem in society at large as well, of course.
And no I am not advocating thrash metal in church meetings.
lol
n david
10-03-2013, 12:21 PM
BTW, one problem with 'contemporary worship music' is not just the lyrics (or lack thereof), but the melodies and instrumentation used. A lot of songs nowadays just SOUND like pop music or what guys would probably call 'girl music', designed to invoke sentimental gushes of emotion.
But that's a problem in society at large as well, of course.
And no I am not advocating thrash metal in church meetings.
lol
So David and his HARP sounded like, what, Journey, U2, Aerosmith? :lol
I've heard a harp played before. Girliest sounding instrument I've heard, besides a flute.
Esaias
10-03-2013, 12:23 PM
I love the sing-the-Psalms crowd. :D
Here's one for them to put to music and sing:
:lol
You'd have people dancing in the living room of your house church with that one! :happydance :happydance :happydance
I'm glad you love us!
As I said, there is a psalm for every occasion, good, bad, and ugly.
Sometimes it is appropriate to weep rather than laugh (Eccles 7:2).
There are psalms of rejoicing and triumph, psalms of petition, and psalms of lament. Through the psalms we are able to sing to the Lord regardless of what situation we find ourselves in.
The Psalm you mentioned is the 38th. Here is a metrical version:
1 In thy great indignation,
O Lord, rebuke me not;
Nor on me lay thy chast'ning hand,
in thy displeasure hot.
2 For in me fast thine arrows stick,
thine hand doth press me sore:
3 And in my flesh there is no health,
nor soundness any more.
This grief I have, because thy wrath
is forth against me gone;
And in my bones there is no rest,
for sin that I have done.
4 Because gone up above mine head
my great transgressions be;
And, as a weighty burden, they
too heavy are for me.
5 My wounds do stink, and are corrupt;
my folly makes it so.
6 I troubled am, and much bow'd down;
all day I mourning go.
7 For a disease that loathsome is
so fills my loins with pain,
That in my weak and weary flesh
no soundness doth remain.
8 So feeble and infirm am I,
and broken am so sore,
That, through disquiet of my heart,
I have been made to roar.
9 O Lord, all that I do desire
is still before thine eye;
And of my heart the secret groans
not hidden are from thee.
10 My heart doth pant incessantly,
my strength doth quite decay;
As for mine eyes, their wonted light
is from me gone away.
11 My lovers and my friends do stand
at distance from my sore;
And those do stand aloof that were
kinsmen and kind before.
12 Yea, they that seek my life lay snares:
who seek to do me wrong
Speak things mischievous, and deceits
imagine all day long.
13 But, as one deaf, that heareth not,
I suffer'd all to pass;
I as a dumb man did become,
whose mouth not open'd was:
14 As one that hears not, in whose mouth
are no reproofs at all.
15 For, Lord, I hope in thee; my God,
thou'lt hear me when I call.
16 For I said, Hear me, lest they should
rejoice o'er me with pride;
And o'er me magnify themselves,
when as my foot doth slide.
17 For I am near to halt, my grief
is still before mine eye:
18 For I'll declare my sin, and grieve
for mine iniquity.
19 But yet mine en'mies lively are,
and strong are they beside;
And they that hate me wrongfully
are greatly multiply'd.
20 And they for good that render ill,
as en'mies me withstood;
Yea, ev'n for this, because that I
do follow what is good.
21 Forsake me not, O Lord; my God,
far from me never be.
22 O Lord, thou my salvation art,
haste to give help to me.
This is a wonderful psalm! It expresses what many people have in fact felt - the need for God to deliver them, their hunger and thirst for God to move in their life, and recognition of sin and a cry of repentance.
I love the Psalms!
Esaias
10-03-2013, 12:25 PM
So David and his HARP sounded like, what, Journey, U2, Aerosmith? :lol
I've heard a harp played before. Girliest sounding instrument I've heard, besides a flute.
I mean the melodies and instrumentation, not necessarily the instruments themselves.
Journey, U2, and Aerosmith's music are generally effeminate.
Flutes don't sound 'girly'. Do you know how many men have gone into battle to the sound of flutes, pipes, and drums?
n david
10-03-2013, 12:37 PM
I'm glad you love us!
As I said, there is a psalm for every occasion, good, bad, and ugly.
Sometimes it is appropriate to weep rather than laugh (Eccles 7:2).
There are psalms of rejoicing and triumph, psalms of petition, and psalms of lament. Through the psalms we are able to sing to the Lord regardless of what situation we find ourselves in.
I love the Psalms!
I love the Psalms also. It's just not easy to compose modern music with the lyrics. Many modern songs we sing have verses of the Psalms in them.
Flutes don't sound 'girly'. Do you know how many men have gone into battle to the sound of flutes, pipes, and drums?
Dude, flutes are girly.
n david
10-03-2013, 12:38 PM
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT5tGOy6_niXISvEaw7YhSap8JcPHHmq DGjwVuham2FMbUH5FcX
Seriously.
:toofunny
RandyWayne
10-03-2013, 12:39 PM
I love the Psalms also. It's just not easy to compose modern music with the lyrics. Many modern songs we sing have verses of the Psalms in them.
Dude, flutes are girly.
I am sure the Psalms made wonderful lyrics in their original language but their many English translations leave a bit to be desired when one attempts to "sing" them. The words simply do not flow right and sound forced to fit whatever melody someone comes up with.
As far as flutes sounding girly, I am thinking about many of the old civil war battle songs that were played before and during battles. I do agree with you about the harp though and that most evil of all instruments, the tambourine!
n david
10-03-2013, 12:41 PM
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSs5DIIawjk8gxoA7fuuuvc8cuVazcq9 4IymiBIZkhe6vswMwStgQ
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQDLx6do0rcP-BYoZZ7ooO_cBH5PU8KXMp8pJCFXxzNLdEFCVDA9g
Yeah, even these guys can't make it manly.
:toofunny
Esaias
10-03-2013, 12:42 PM
I love the Psalms also. It's just not easy to compose modern music with the lyrics. Many modern songs we sing have verses of the Psalms in them.
Agreed. The Scottish Metrical Version is a good start, but I do think it needs to be 'updated' somewhat.
Dude, flutes are girly.
Tell it to this guy:
http://cdn4.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/migration_catalog/article25651448.ece/ALTERNATES/h342/130709JP1_045
n david
10-03-2013, 12:43 PM
Still girly! Hahaha
RandyWayne
10-03-2013, 12:44 PM
http://yosemite-sam.net/Sam/Animated-Cartoons/Bunker-Hill-Bunny-12.JPG
Esaias
10-03-2013, 12:45 PM
I changed the pic because it was Waaaaay too big...
n david
10-03-2013, 12:46 PM
Tell it to this guy:
http://cdn4.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/migration_catalog/article25651448.ece/ALTERNATES/h342/130709JP1_045
His pinky's all up in the air...may as well have a ring on his pinky. :lol
RandyWayne
10-03-2013, 12:47 PM
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/images/ezine/0815_CarradineFlute.jpg
Esaias
10-03-2013, 12:47 PM
His pinky's all up in the air...may as well have a ring on his pinky. :lol
You, sir, are IMPOSSIBLE.
lol
houston
10-03-2013, 12:48 PM
U2 is effeminate?
n david
10-03-2013, 12:49 PM
U2 is effeminate?
Does Bono or Edge wear skinny jeans?
houston
10-03-2013, 01:07 PM
Does Bono or Edge wear skinny jeans?I listen to the music. I don't watch the music videos.
n david
10-03-2013, 01:35 PM
You, sir, are IMPOSSIBLE.
lol
:lol
Praxeas
10-03-2013, 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by renee819 View Post
Praxeas wrote,
You don't need to be in someones living room in order to do that Renee. You can do that anywhere
I know. But is it being taught in our churches? Or are they afraid that the men will leave?
Renee you indicated earlier that this issue would be different in a house church yet you admit here it seems that it really has nothing to do with the location but whether or not it's being taught.
Then what you do is change the issue.
Praxeas
10-03-2013, 02:10 PM
I believe he meant just what he said.
So do I...so now back to what we were discussing about men being allowed to speak up and give their opinion on what a verse means in light of what the Elder said it means?
So this is going to revolutionize church and bring more men in because they are itching to speak up and voice their opinions on the same verse?
And wouldn't that lead to confusion, everyone having their own opinion on a verse?
Aquila
10-03-2013, 02:17 PM
I may never march in the infan...
Oh wait..
lol
lol!
All great songs guys.
But some of it is too mushy for me.
Aquila
10-03-2013, 02:18 PM
I love the sing-the-Psalms crowd. :D
Here's one for them to put to music and sing:
:lol
You'd have people dancing in the living room of your house church with that one! :happydance :happydance :happydance
lol
Esaias
10-03-2013, 02:28 PM
So do I...so now back to what we were discussing about men being allowed to speak up and give their opinion on what a verse means in light of what the Elder said it means?
So this is going to revolutionize church and bring more men in because they are itching to speak up and voice their opinions on the same verse?
And wouldn't that lead to confusion, everyone having their own opinion on a verse?
Everyone already has their own opinion on about every verse there is. And thus we have confusion rampant.
Paul said we should be of the same mind, speak the same thing.
Here's how I see the biblical 'order' if you will:
There are some gifted and commissioned by God to teach doctrine in the church. This is primarily the responsibility of the elders. Teachings however must be examined, to see whether they are in accord with Scripture. 'Prove all things, hold fast that which is good'. Anyone who teaches the church must be able to ANSWER QUESTIONS. Notice Paul, in 1 Cor, when he tells women to keep silent, he says 'if they will learn anything let them ask their husband at home'. This implies that there was indeed proper questioning, just that it wasn't proper for women to be questioning things in the meeting.
Therefore, it is proper for men to question things in the meeting. This pattern is seen in the gospels, where Jesus teaches and his disciples ask him questions. (As a side note, also in evangelism, where Jesus is teaching the lost and they ask him questions.)
So the original pattern exampled by Jesus with his original disciples, the original 'prototypical ecclesia' in the New Testament, is for the Teacher to teach, and the students (the ones learning) to ask questions to clarify and further their knowledge.
This discipleship pattern is to be repeated (Great Commission), and we see it also in Acts. The same basic idea - teaching, and if necessary, questioning and dialogue, 'reasoning' from the Scriptures.
As I noted, Paul also said 'if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first hold his piece'. The purpose? 'For ye may all prophesy one by one', as long as it is done decently and in order, not in a chaotic confusion.
Therefore, teaching is not to be accomplished only by one man lecturing to the whole assembly and that's it. There are a variety of methods described in Scripture for teaching, they are like 'tools in the toolbox', and should be used as needed and as appropriate.
The idea, however, of spmeone reading a verse of scripture, and then everyone just states 'well, I think it means xyz' and then the next guy says 'to me, it's saying abc' is probably a recipe for disaster.
Thus, the emphasis in scripture not only on proving all things, but also on the fact not ALL are 'teachers'.
Finally, our 'opinions' are to be conformed to the truth, as expounded in the meetings, in the Holy Ghost. Everyone, as disciples, is expected to conform their ideas to God's Word, but the method God uses is not mere dogmatic assertion by an authority figure, but by discourse, reasoning from scripture, and this often requires interaction, questioning, dialogue.
Heretics, however, may often force the issue down to a dogmatic declaration by the church to make a rejection of false teaching.
Praxeas
10-03-2013, 02:28 PM
No. lol
I'm saying that essentially we don't have a voice. We cant' share what we might know or think about a topic. We can't question the teacher for more information.
You mean men can't quiz the teacher in the middle of his lesson in front of everyone else in the middle of the lesson?
We can't openly discuss differences of opinion on various passages, subjects, or positions.
Yes so in other words the men can't confront the teacher and suggest they are wrong, in front of everyone else?
We're expected to sing along, clap, throw our 10% in the plate, and just play along with the performance.
So you always just played along and thought of it all as a performance?
Any commentary, any sharing, any questioning has to be done afterwards for a quick two minutes while the pastor performs meet-and-greet, or in a scheduled office visit that rarely goes as well as we imagined it.
And so...men don't go to church because they want to be able to do that with everyone else watching and listening? What difference does it make if the men can do it in front of everyone vs in private with the teacher? Is this an ego thing? You sure this is why more men don't go to church?
House church provides a more conversational format. An interactive dialogue. And unless something is rank heresy, most house churches I know are very tolerant of individual convictions or opinions.
Who get's to decide if it's rank heresy? Aren't you really just saying they can speak up as long as they agree with the elders viewpoint?
BTW why can't the men do that in a bible study? Lots of churches have small group bible studies. If the reason men are not going to church more is because they don't get to spill their two cents in front of the rest of the group then why don't these same men go to these small group bible studies?
But all of that is just ONE dimension to the issue.
Im not convinced that is even one dimension of the issue
I wonder how Moses dealt with it
Deu 27:9 Then Moses and the Levitical priests said to all Israel, "Keep silence and hear, O Israel: this day you have become the people of the LORD your God.
I know a LOT of men, that when given the opportunity, say nothing at all
Beyond the church just expecting men to be silent observers... the church does little else. I mean, what has the church done for men lately???
You mean expecting the entire congregation to learn instead of constantly interrupt the teacher? Wow...what a novel idea.
You mean like have superbowl parties?
I'm talking about the practical day to day manhood and fatherhood. I'm talking about getting us grounded in our identity as men, father's, and husbands.
You mean like daily holding their hands and walking them through life? As far as being husbands and fathers, that get's taught a LOT in my church. Don't they do that in the house church? Personally though, never felt inadequate in my manhood. Im not sure what the big deal is with men not having an identity as men. As far as I can see that is not the issue but rather women understanding how men should be treated and vice versa
Don't get me wrong... I've seen a few churches have successful men's ministry. But most allow it to fizzle out... the pastor doesn't really "get in there"... and if the pastor does the men hide their true selves and don't open up because the political fallout of confessing one's faults or sins could destroy us... etc.
SO this IS about sharing our feelings? Honestly that too goes on a lot where I am. We have men's prayer meetings and the men share. It's about mentoring, not having a "men's ministry"
Men have no REAL authority in the home.
That has nothing to do with home church or men being taught but again how women are taught to treat men. Not only that a lot of men abdicate that responsibility by allowing the women to be the spiritual head at home
Men have no REAL voice in the church (accept a select few).
We are men! Hear us ROAR!
Men have no REAL haven to open up and be healed emotionally or spiritually.
Mentoring
I still think I'm not explaining it well. lol
Probably not :heeheehee
Praxeas
10-03-2013, 02:32 PM
The house church paradigm that I'm used to has an elder reading a passage. He shares his thoughts or insights that the Holy Spirit has given him. Then he opens the group up to share there thoughts and/or experiences concerning the subject matter, the passage, or even any of the comments he has made. It's amazing how much insight some men have but they never have a venue to share it. Some young people are wise beyond their years. Some older men who rarely speak unload about 45 minutes of wisdom and insight that builds on what the elder talked about... sometimes someone cracks and begins confessing sin they struggle with or shame or depression or feelings of being a failure. They break and weep and we pray for them, plead the blood over them, and administer the grace of God in the power of the Holy Ghost. It can be so beautiful, everyone has a voice. Everyone has something to contribute. Some men will write a song and bring it to sing. Others will be moved by a particular hymn or worship song and bring the CD and we sing along with it... tears streaming down. And the FOOD. Dude... nobody eats like house churches. The food is abundant and awesome homemade goods. Some even serve some rather nice wine. But that depends on the house church and the convictions they've arrived at as a group. The ladies gather and come down stairs and warmly sit buy the husbands... what they talked about we don't know. But the atmosphere is different. They look at us with... respect and tenderness. Yes... my favorite house church gathers with men and women gathering separately when we dig into the lesson. But something is just different... more personal. Beautiful.
That is definitely NOT for me. I can't stand being in a prayer group and some guys start talking and going on and on and on and then I have to ask near the end "Uh...what was the prayer request again"?
But, as I said that can happen in a small group and many churches have.
Aquila
10-03-2013, 02:37 PM
BTW, one problem with 'contemporary worship music' is not just the lyrics (or lack thereof), but the melodies and instrumentation used. A lot of songs nowadays just SOUND like pop music or what guys would probably call 'girl music', designed to invoke sentimental gushes of emotion.
But that's a problem in society at large as well, of course.
And no I am not advocating thrash metal in church meetings.
lol
I'll be honest... sometimes I miss old hymns, and I even like some of the new ones. We sing them in house church most of the time. They often speak of emotional topics and aren't all that "manly"... but the rhythm and verbiage makes up for it. In my opinion of course.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKDujmtyAVk
Aquila
10-03-2013, 02:44 PM
So do I...so now back to what we were discussing about men being allowed to speak up and give their opinion on what a verse means in light of what the Elder said it means?
So this is going to revolutionize church and bring more men in because they are itching to speak up and voice their opinions on the same verse?
And wouldn't that lead to confusion, everyone having their own opinion on a verse?
You'd think it could, but surprisingly it doesn't in most meetings. I was surprised with how, when men are face to face, they work to maintain unity in the Spirit. It's not like an internet forum. You might have five guys share their thoughts on a text and testify as to what it has meant for them... and then one guy or the elder will tie it all together. We did have a very fun and interesting meeting when those who lean Calvinist and those who lean Armenian began discussing a passage. But it was in good taste and in good humor. No one condemned anyone, we just discussed what it meant to us and how it spoke to us. That was the meeting wherein I began discussing what I call "theological perspective". When approaching that topic it all depends on the perspective you start with. I explained that I believe that as a human being trapped in time my choices are made through free will. I know that. I experience that. It's true. However, from the divine perspective that is transcendent of time and space all things are known. It's already predetermined and established. What God desires to be... will be. So, I summed it up by explaining that I was an Armenian... but God can't help but be a Calvinist. We had a good laugh... but it really challenged both sides to realize that categorically speaking... two seemingly opposed concepts can be true at once.
For example, what do you see in this picture??? Is it a young woman or an old lady??? Obviously the reality is both. There is a young woman in the picture. And... there is also an old woman in the picture. It's "designed" that way. ;)
That's why I think the whole debate about Calvinism and Armenianism is stupid.
Praxeas
10-03-2013, 02:47 PM
My point is that in our culture a man has been reduced to the bumbling baffoon often portrayed in evening sitcoms. A man's voice isn't really of any value unless it's in a subculture of... other males. In my experience even women in the church are unrestrained. They pay lip service to the notion of male headship and authority... but when they absolutely have to submit... all that goes out the window. And who makes the final decision??? The woman.
I've had this experience too... I was managing the bills. I had to call and make a payment arrangement. They explain to me why they cannot make a payment arrangement. I ask if there are any acceptions or anything else they can do. The person on the telephone (male or femal, doesn't matter) assures me that there isn't. So I go home and tell the little lady that they told me there was nothing they could do. She gets irate and treats me like I'm a 15 year old kid that can't do anything right. She gets on the telephone and calls the same number I called and gets a representative. Within five minutes they work out a payment arrangement regarding the bill... for her! That has happened to me time and time again. I began bickering so much about it, I told her that she could call them if she wanted a payment arrangement. We were behind on rent once. I called the landlord and asked if he could take a late or partial payment. He lectured me about how he was in business to make money and that our lease was a "contract". Then he implied that he could evict us if we didn't pay. Well... I tell her, she calls him... guess what... he'll take a late payment all of the sudden. It got to me soooooo much I began pointing out EVERY time this happened when we were out in public. I asked a clerk at Wal-Mart where an item was... they sighed and explained that they weren't sure and directed me to an isle. She asked... the employee got on the radio... two more employees showed up... and they helped her find it! She was beside herself. She'd always rolled her eyes at me when I complained that I wasn't even going to ask and said I'd rather find it myself. We were at Korger's grocery store one night. We had our two kids with us. We have a tradition... we typically go to the bakery and get free "kiddie cookies" for the kids as a treat, if they are well behaved. She asked me to go and request them. The lady behind the counter said they only had one left. So, instead of getting one cookie and watching the kids fight over it or breaking it in half and have to listen to the kids bicker about only having half a cookie... I told momma that they only had one cookie left. She walks up to the counter and asks for two cookies... happily the lady opens another box and gives her two cookies! LOL
What gives???
http://www.artofmanliness.com/2013/02/12/how-to-be-assertive/
Aquila
10-03-2013, 02:53 PM
That is definitely NOT for me. I can't stand being in a prayer group and some guys start talking and going on and on and on and then I have to ask near the end "Uh...what was the prayer request again"?
But, as I said that can happen in a small group and many churches have.
Well, it may not be for everyone. But for many... it really feels good to be a part of a body that is ministering to one another.
It's also nice to be a part of Apostolic heritage. For centuries the first Christians gathered primarily in homes. It's very nice. Your "church family" actually begins to function more like a "family". We open up, we share, we teach, we confess sin, we eat! Yes. That's an awesome part of house church. We eat.
Here's a good video that talks about what I'm talking about...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvJR_SIiPl4
Nitehawk013
10-04-2013, 05:08 AM
I know I for one identify with the idea that many men hate church because they are expected to just shut up and play along. I hate that if a preacher, any preacher, says something stupid, incorrect or outright unbiblical I am expected to just sit there and play along. If I want I can talk to him after service, but lets be real folks...preachers who preach stupid stuff like "men can't wear shorts because it is immodest" just blow off anyone who asks them to prove it in the Bible.
I know I get tired of hearing about how important the Word of God is, then hearing people just butcher it to pieces with no accountability. No noe can challenge them. No one can point out their error. And yes...I do think it should be in the open. Behind closed doors they just blow off correction either gracefully (we'll just have to agree to disagree) or not so gracefully (I'm the Pastor and you are in rebellion. It's my way and you can find another church if you don't like it).
We want men to be men, and even preach men to be men, but when a man tries to be a man and correct what is wrong...well then he is just rebellious or out of line.
I know I for one identify with the idea that many men hate church because they are expected to just shut up and play along. I hate that if a preacher, any preacher, says something stupid, incorrect or outright unbiblical I am expected to just sit there and play along. If I want I can talk to him after service, but lets be real folks...preachers who preach stupid stuff like "men can't wear shorts because it is immodest" just blow off anyone who asks them to prove it in the Bible.
I know I get tired of hearing about how important the Word of God is, then hearing people just butcher it to pieces with no accountability. No noe can challenge them. No one can point out their error. And yes...I do think it should be in the open. Behind closed doors they just blow off correction either gracefully (we'll just have to agree to disagree) or not so gracefully (I'm the Pastor and you are in rebellion. It's my way and you can find another church if you don't like it).
We want men to be men, and even preach men to be men, but when a man tries to be a man and correct what is wrong...well then he is just rebellious or out of line.
Last "service"... It was said "being in submission to the man of God(pastor), you will receive a double portion anointing, Because Elisha did.
(preaching on Elisha and Elijah.)
No since in saying anything tho, it does not want to be heard, and will be frowned upon at the very least.
Aquila
10-04-2013, 06:27 AM
I know I for one identify with the idea that many men hate church because they are expected to just shut up and play along. I hate that if a preacher, any preacher, says something stupid, incorrect or outright unbiblical I am expected to just sit there and play along. If I want I can talk to him after service, but lets be real folks...preachers who preach stupid stuff like "men can't wear shorts because it is immodest" just blow off anyone who asks them to prove it in the Bible.
I know I get tired of hearing about how important the Word of God is, then hearing people just butcher it to pieces with no accountability. No noe can challenge them. No one can point out their error. And yes...I do think it should be in the open. Behind closed doors they just blow off correction either gracefully (we'll just have to agree to disagree) or not so gracefully (I'm the Pastor and you are in rebellion. It's my way and you can find another church if you don't like it).
We want men to be men, and even preach men to be men, but when a man tries to be a man and correct what is wrong...well then he is just rebellious or out of line.
*Standing Ovation*
Aquila
10-04-2013, 06:30 AM
Nitehawk013 brings up a good point. Where do you think false doctrine is more likely to prevail? In a large group wherein they are all forced to sit and listen without being allowed to ask questions, share thoughts, or lovingly challenge a concept in the open?.... Or a place wherein a man can ask questions, share thoughts, and lovingly challenge a concept in the open?
Think of the largest cults on the planet. Mormonism, Catholicism, etc... are they not structures built with the "sit and listen" authoritarian structure?
Aquila
10-04-2013, 06:32 AM
When Christian men become spiritually mature... they want a voice. They want a part in this Heavenly drama. They don't want to be relegated to a pew and reduced to a silent and blindly obedient "tithe cow".
Originalist
10-04-2013, 07:54 AM
Nitehawk013 brings up a good point. Where do you think false doctrine is more likely to prevail? In a large group wherein they are all forced to sit and listen without being allowed to ask questions, share thoughts, or lovingly challenge a concept in the open?.... Or a place wherein a man can ask questions, share thoughts, and lovingly challenge a concept in the open?
Think of the largest cults on the planet. Mormonism, Catholicism, etc... are they not structures built with the "sit and listen" authoritarian structure?
Yet, often times when house churches are mentioned, "cults" or "siritual abusers" are thought of.
Esaias
10-04-2013, 08:56 AM
There is also a practical consideration.
It is not 'decently and in order' for a person to constantly interrupt another while that person is speaking. However, as Paul said, 'one by one', ie when a man finishes what he is saying, others can address what was said, including their questions or why they think something may have been in error.
I have been in 'open meetings' before, and I have never seen any rudeness or 'Oh yeah? Yer just lying, you ole false prophet!' or anything like that. someone earlier mentioned how face to face meetings are not like an internet forum. People generally have some decorum in the 'real world'.
When you add the idea that the men involved have the Holy Ghost, and are all seeking to know God's will, and if they have a spirit of humility and long-suffering, things tend to work rather smoothly.
Might be why the apostles kept admonishing the saints to abound more and more in love towards one another, and to be longsuffering, forbearing one another in love, submitting to one another in love, being humble, and avoiding strife when possible.
All those exhortations take on a new depth when you view them in light of a participatory, open meeting approach to church.
Aquila
10-04-2013, 12:20 PM
Yet, often times when house churches are mentioned, "cults" or "siritual abusers" are thought of.
I think that is typical of anything that is different from the norm. In our culture house churches are strange. However, in the early church it was the norm. And in many very poor countries or countries where Christianity is persecuted it is the norm to this day.
Aquila
10-04-2013, 12:22 PM
There is also a practical consideration.
It is not 'decently and in order' for a person to constantly interrupt another while that person is speaking. However, as Paul said, 'one by one', ie when a man finishes what he is saying, others can address what was said, including their questions or why they think something may have been in error.
I have been in 'open meetings' before, and I have never seen any rudeness or 'Oh yeah? Yer just lying, you ole false prophet!' or anything like that. someone earlier mentioned how face to face meetings are not like an internet forum. People generally have some decorum in the 'real world'.
When you add the idea that the men involved have the Holy Ghost, and are all seeking to know God's will, and if they have a spirit of humility and long-suffering, things tend to work rather smoothly.
Might be why the apostles kept admonishing the saints to abound more and more in love towards one another, and to be longsuffering, forbearing one another in love, submitting to one another in love, being humble, and avoiding strife when possible.
All those exhortations take on a new depth when you view them in light of a participatory, open meeting approach to church.
Amen. Everything you said is so true. And I've experienced it personally. House churches are far more like a family dinner with reflection upon our Heavenly Father than debates.
Praxeas
10-04-2013, 12:32 PM
Nitehawk013 brings up a good point. Where do you think false doctrine is more likely to prevail? In a large group wherein they are all forced to sit and listen without being allowed to ask questions, share thoughts, or lovingly challenge a concept in the open?.... Or a place wherein a man can ask questions, share thoughts, and lovingly challenge a concept in the open?
Think of the largest cults on the planet. Mormonism, Catholicism, etc... are they not structures built with the "sit and listen" authoritarian structure?
In a house church where everyone can have a different opinion and spread it around...
Most church groups started SMALL, yes even the Mormons at one time started as a small group
Praxeas
10-04-2013, 12:34 PM
When Christian men become spiritually mature... they want a voice. They want a part in this Heavenly drama. They don't want to be relegated to a pew and reduced to a silent and blindly obedient "tithe cow".
Really? What verse in the bible tells you that?
BTW where was Jesus quizzed and confronted by the spiritual men? Wasn't he always challenged by pharisees?
Moses? the Apostles?
Praxeas
10-04-2013, 12:35 PM
Yet, often times when house churches are mentioned, "cults" or "siritual abusers" are thought of.
True.
Aquila
10-04-2013, 12:46 PM
Really? What verse in the bible tells you that?
BTW where was Jesus quizzed and confronted by the spiritual men? Wasn't he always challenged by pharisees?
Moses? the Apostles?
C'mon Prax... it's common knowledge that Gentile Christians outside of Jerusalem commonly met in their homes. The Jewish Christians met in synagogue until they were cast out. And we have no archeological evidence of an official "church building" until nearly 300 years after Pentecost. Christianity spread like wildfire throughout the Roman Empire. That means they weren't settling into a "come to us" kind of church. It was a church multiplication movement that turned every Christian household into a gathering place. They weren't meeting in very large groups on most occasions. In fact... they met secretly quite a bit. In small quiet groups in homes, barns, catacombs, etc.
Aquila
10-04-2013, 12:49 PM
In a house church where everyone can have a different opinion and spread it around...
Are you saying that believers aren't entitled to have an opinion and to share that opinion???
Most church groups started SMALL, yes even the Mormons at one time started as a small group
Amen. But they become centralized... build temples and then expect people to populate them and bring their money. The house church movement strives NOT to repeat the same mistakes. In fact... in Korea, China, India, and throughout the Middle East... house churches are growing exponentially. While we're struggling to maintain buildings and large campuses, making membership drives, and raffling off I-PODs to attract visitors... they are breaking bread in their homes... living and breathing NT church life.
renee819
10-04-2013, 03:14 PM
BTW, one problem with 'contemporary worship music' is not just the lyrics (or lack thereof), but the melodies and instrumentation used. A lot of songs nowadays just SOUND like pop music or what guys would probably call 'girl music', designed to invoke sentimental gushes of emotion.
But that's a problem in society at large as well, of course.
And no I am not advocating thrash metal in church meetings.
lol
Yes! And the biggest problem is, there is no harmony in the music or the singing. I believe he world has lost it's harmony, and the church is copying it.
Could this be what God mean's when He says,
Amos 8:3 And the songs of the temple shall be howlings in that day, saith the Lord GOD: there shall be many dead bodies in every place; they shall cast them forth with silence.
Some of the words are OK, but the music and singing sound like "howlings" to me.
Praxeas
10-04-2013, 03:30 PM
Aquila are you saying the men that did not confront Jesus, Moses and the Apostles were not spiritually mature? :throwrock
Aquila
10-04-2013, 03:36 PM
Aquila are you saying the men that did not confront Jesus, Moses and the Apostles were not spiritually mature? :throwrock
Was that mature???
I believe you know what I'm saying Prax. :rolleyes2
n david
10-04-2013, 03:45 PM
Yes! And the biggest problem is, there is no harmony in the music or the singing. I believe he world has lost it's harmony, and the church is copying it.
!!!??? This is just an absurd statement. Perhaps you've lost your harmony or can't sing it, but don't say there's no harmony in church music.
renee819
10-04-2013, 03:56 PM
!!!??? This is just an absurd statement. Perhaps you've lost your harmony or can't sing it, but don't say there's no harmony in church music.
I'll change that to, "Modern Church Music" has no harmony.
renee819
10-07-2013, 04:52 AM
!!!??? This is just an absurd statement. Perhaps you've lost your harmony or can't sing it, but don't say there's no harmony in church music.
A typical very kind statement! NOT. I believe there are many that would agree with me.
I know the music of the world, illustrates the times that we are living in. Loud, jungle beat, fast and most of the time, you can't even hear the words. (and I know, my hearing isn't what it used to be- but I can still hear normal songs and sing, normal songs) And I've been told that I have a beautiful voice and I have several times led song service.
When the church copies the fast, loud, jungle beat of the world, to me, there is no harmony.
n david
10-07-2013, 06:08 AM
A typical very kind statement! NOT. I believe there are many that would agree with me.
I know the music of the world, illustrates the times that we are living in. Loud, jungle beat, fast and most of the time, you can't even hear the words. (and I know, my hearing isn't what it used to be- but I can still hear normal songs and sing, normal songs) And I've been told that I have a beautiful voice and I have several times led song service.
When the church copies the fast, loud, jungle beat of the world, to me, there is no harmony.
Jungle beat???
houston
10-07-2013, 06:16 AM
Jungle beat???yeah. No idea...
n david
10-07-2013, 07:53 AM
A typical very kind statement! NOT. I believe there are many that would agree with me.
I know the music of the world, illustrates the times that we are living in. Loud, jungle beat, fast and most of the time, you can't even hear the words. (and I know, my hearing isn't what it used to be- but I can still hear normal songs and sing, normal songs) And I've been told that I have a beautiful voice and I have several times led song service.
When the church copies the fast, loud, jungle beat of the world, to me, there is no harmony.
What do you mean by "Jungle" beat? I looked up "jungle beat" on Google and the results I get are for "Donkey Kong." What do you mean by "jungle beat?" Define it, please.
Not sure what church you've been to which had songs as you described. A lot of the modern church music right now has a slow to moderate beat. Eight of the current top 10 CCLI worship songs are slow/moderate.
n david
10-07-2013, 01:15 PM
*bump
navygoat1998
10-07-2013, 01:17 PM
I am a freak, but I love being part of my church and enjoy attending. :thumbsup
Praxeas
10-07-2013, 03:33 PM
What do you mean by "Jungle" beat? I looked up "jungle beat" on Google and the results I get are for "Donkey Kong." What do you mean by "jungle beat?" Define it, please.
Not sure what church you've been to which had songs as you described. A lot of the modern church music right now has a slow to moderate beat. Eight of the current top 10 CCLI worship songs are slow/moderate.
"Jungle Beat" sounds racist
Praxeas
10-07-2013, 03:38 PM
I'll change that to, "Modern Church Music" has no harmony.
Define harmony
n david
10-07-2013, 03:43 PM
"Jungle Beat" sounds racist
I thought the same, but decided to give the benefit of the doubt and ask how it was being defined.
Praxeas
10-07-2013, 03:56 PM
Oddly she said fast....so blue grass music that most UPCs in the 80s was jungle music
navygoat1998
10-07-2013, 05:05 PM
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/eharmony-ipad-application.jpgDefine harmony
http://www.maximumpc.com/files/u69/eharmony_guy.jpg
Praxeas
10-07-2013, 07:28 PM
Sooooo...did we find out about jungle beats and harmony yet?
Praxeas
10-07-2013, 07:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qCmtUhiKcA
KeptByTheWord
10-07-2013, 07:35 PM
Actually, any kind of gospel music can turn into entertainment, and a show time... I think Sis. Renee was just speaking of the wild kind of music that gets people pumped up and excited, and moving to the beat, without any real heartfelt worship coming from their hearts, much like what goes on at any rock/country or band concert. I've been in band concerts where the jazz music got my toes a tapping, and my hands a clapping, and it had nothing to do with the Lord.
I understand what she is trying to say... that when the music, and the beat becomes more important than true heartfelt worship... then it becomes pure entertainment, and it doesn't matter what the lyrics are or what style of music it is.
Trying to find heartfelt soul filled, anointed music is rather tough in our entertainment-driven society... many would far rather be entertained by a beat, a tune and a show, than to actually experience heart felt worship that requires a sacrifice of praise that cries up to the Lord from the heart.
renee819
10-07-2013, 08:09 PM
Actually, any kind of gospel music can turn into entertainment, and a show time... I think Sis. Renee was just speaking of the wild kind of music that gets people pumped up and excited, and moving to the beat, without any real heartfelt worship coming from their hearts, much like what goes on at any rock/country or band concert. I've been in band concerts where the jazz music got my toes a tapping, and my hands a clapping, and it had nothing to do with the Lord.
I understand what she is trying to say... that when the music, and the beat becomes more important than true heartfelt worship... then it becomes pure entertainment, and it doesn't matter what the lyrics are or what style of music it is.
Trying to find heartfelt soul filled, anointed music is rather tough in our entertainment-driven society... many would far rather be entertained by a beat, a tune and a show, than to actually experience heart felt worship that requires a sacrifice of praise that cries up to the Lord from the heart.
Thank You, Kept by The Word. That is exactly what I was trying to say.
The words may be OK, but if the tune is more like Rock Music, the words and the tune doesn't harmonize. The people can get real emotional, but there is a sad, disconnect. And I don't claim the gift of discernment, but my spirit can discern that.
And it isn't just the Rock Music, I remember in the 60's or maybe 70's, an evangelist came to the church, and almost every night he would get the people shouting with, the song, "Ain't No Grave gonna hold my body down."
It isn't just the entertainment, but also trying to work people up emotionally.
If God is in the mids't, He will do what needs to be done without man working on peoples emotions. And I don't mean that there shouldn't be any emotion. live people display all kinds of emotions, but it should be as Kept said, HEARTFELT. and not because that someone was manipulating the people.
n david
10-07-2013, 08:33 PM
Actually, any kind of gospel music can turn into entertainment, and a show time... I think Sis. Renee was just speaking of the wild kind of music that gets people pumped up and excited, and moving to the beat, without any real heartfelt worship coming from their hearts, much like what goes on at any rock/country or band concert. I've been in band concerts where the jazz music got my toes a tapping, and my hands a clapping, and it had nothing to do with the Lord.
I understand what she is trying to say... that when the music, and the beat becomes more important than true heartfelt worship... then it becomes pure entertainment, and it doesn't matter what the lyrics are or what style of music it is.
Trying to find heartfelt soul filled, anointed music is rather tough in our entertainment-driven society... many would far rather be entertained by a beat, a tune and a show, than to actually experience heart felt worship that requires a sacrifice of praise that cries up to the Lord from the heart.
Why call it jungle music then? That label has a very racial overtone.
RandyWayne
10-07-2013, 08:38 PM
Why call it jungle music then? That label has a very racial overtone.
You know, Jungle Music.
http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/28500000/Gilligan-the-Goddess-gilligans-island-28562410-735-545.jpg
houston
10-07-2013, 08:53 PM
Why call it jungle music then? That label has a very racial overtone.reminds me of a passage in Winds of God...
Praxeas
10-07-2013, 09:29 PM
Actually, any kind of gospel music can turn into entertainment, and a show time... I think Sis. Renee was just speaking of the wild kind of music that gets people pumped up and excited, and moving to the beat, without any real heartfelt worship coming from their hearts, much like what goes on at any rock/country or band concert. I've been in band concerts where the jazz music got my toes a tapping, and my hands a clapping, and it had nothing to do with the Lord.
I understand what she is trying to say... that when the music, and the beat becomes more important than true heartfelt worship... then it becomes pure entertainment, and it doesn't matter what the lyrics are or what style of music it is.
Trying to find heartfelt soul filled, anointed music is rather tough in our entertainment-driven society... many would far rather be entertained by a beat, a tune and a show, than to actually experience heart felt worship that requires a sacrifice of praise that cries up to the Lord from the heart.
Like this toe tappin song?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwKMh4Pwcjw
KeptByTheWord
10-07-2013, 11:34 PM
Thank You, Kept by The Word. That is exactly what I was trying to say.
The words may be OK, but if the tune is more like Rock Music, the words and the tune doesn't harmonize. The people can get real emotional, but there is a sad, disconnect. And I don't claim the gift of discernment, but my spirit can discern that.
And it isn't just the Rock Music, I remember in the 60's or maybe 70's, an evangelist came to the church, and almost every night he would get the people shouting with, the song, "Ain't No Grave gonna hold my body down."
It isn't just the entertainment, but also trying to work people up emotionally.
If God is in the mids't, He will do what needs to be done without man working on peoples emotions. And I don't mean that there shouldn't be any emotion. live people display all kinds of emotions, but it should be as Kept said, HEARTFELT. and not because that someone was manipulating the people.
There is a big difference in the emotion that music alone can bring, to an actual presence and sweet spirit of the Lord in a place. There is a difference, and everyone of you posting on this thread should probably know the difference. I would think most of you have been in a place where the sweet presence of the Lord came in and touched your heart, and no one had to work it up, it was real.
KeptByTheWord
10-07-2013, 11:37 PM
Like this toe tappin song?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwKMh4Pwcjw
Yup.
Michael The Disciple
10-07-2013, 11:42 PM
Why is rock music singled out? Remember God likes it LOUD. He enjoys that. I rarely listen to Christian rock its truly hard to find any more that puts the good words with the right sound. Nonetheless to me "rock" is not NECESSARILY less holy than other styles of music.
Perhaps you can produce a Youtube of what would be considered true worship?
Praxeas
10-08-2013, 12:25 AM
Yup.
So any music you can clap to or tap your toe is bad?
renee819
10-08-2013, 05:13 AM
Like this toe tappin song?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwKMh4Pwcjw
YES!!!
Notice, Jesus was magnified.
The words were clear, because the music wasn't so loud that it overwhelmed the singers. Or maybe I should say, didn't compete with the singers to see who could be the loudest.
Michael The Disciple
10-08-2013, 05:26 AM
Now lets check this one out.
Time On My Side by David And The Giants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1J79De4xej8
I rate this one very good for personal edification.
renee819
10-08-2013, 05:50 AM
At least I could hear the words.
Maybe, it's a personal thing, but the song did nothing for me. I think it was the Tempo and the beat.
I can't imagine a congregation singing it, without some swaying hips and shrugging shoulders, and being entertained by the tempo and beat, instead of the words.
Michael The Disciple
10-08-2013, 05:59 AM
Now for Church worship:
We Choose The Fear Of The Lord
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJHAa9gAlsA&list=FLH75E-E-no8-tTOmXRQW8rg
Michael The Disciple
10-08-2013, 06:04 AM
At least I could hear the words.
Maybe, it's a personal thing, but the song did nothing for me. I think it was the Tempo and the beat.
I can't imagine a congregation singing it, without some swaying hips and shrugging shoulders, and being entertained by the tempo and beat, instead of the words.
Myself I spend far more time listening to music and worshipping the Lord alone than with a congregation. Hope one day soon that will change.
Michael The Disciple
10-08-2013, 06:09 AM
Whats a Church meeting like in China?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxX2_D11qBw
n david
10-08-2013, 07:58 AM
YES!!!
Notice, Jesus was magnified.
The words were clear, because the music wasn't so loud that it overwhelmed the singers. Or maybe I should say, didn't compete with the singers to see who could be the loudest.
We've gone from lost harmony to fast jungle beat (whatever that is, she still hasn't defined it), to emotionalism, to loud music.
You do realize that "Jesus, I'll Never Forget," can cause emotionalism, it has a fast beat (not sure if it's a jungle beat or not since you haven't defined that), and some churches play and sing it LOUD.
So no fast, jungle-type, emotional, loud music. Got it.
navygoat1998
10-08-2013, 08:10 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za4p1-K-f1Y
RandyWayne
10-08-2013, 10:49 PM
Some PURE "Jungle Music". :)
http://magicpcmedia.com/Music/BurningDownTheHouse.mp3
KeptByTheWord
10-09-2013, 09:03 AM
Whats a Church meeting like in China?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxX2_D11qBw
Wow. Thanks for sharing MTD. I was touched by all those hungry hearts worshiping the Lord, most of them probably knowing when they leave that place that persecution awaits, yet the joy and love for God was so evident on their faces.
Praxeas
10-09-2013, 12:29 PM
Hmmm...for some reason I think of something by Morris Day and the Time...
renee819
10-10-2013, 05:25 AM
DID YOU WATCH THIS ONE?
TIME TO GET SERIOUS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxX2_D11qBw
This man is telling you the Truth. Truth that may take his life.
n david
10-10-2013, 09:08 AM
Back to the original subject...
The Author of "Why Men Hate Going to Church" asked a music leader to come up with a list of worship songs for men. Here's the list:
1. Solid Rock – Delirious
2. Our God – Chris Tomlin
3. I Will Follow – Chris Tomlin
4. Awakening – Chris Tomlin
5. Your Grace Is Enough – Chris Tomlin
6. Indescribable – Chris Tomlin
7. Holy Is The Lord – Chris Tomlin
8. How Great Is Our God – Chris Tomlin
9. On Our Side – Chris Tomlin
10. Mighty Is The Power Of The Cross – Chris Tomlin
11. God Of This City – Chris Tomlin
12. Exalted (Yahweh) – Chris Tomlin
13. Let God Arise – Chris Tomlin
14. Not To Us – Chris Tomlin
15. Famous One – Chris Tomlin
16. Awesome Is The Lord Most High – Chris Tomlin
17. Amazing Grace (My Chains Are Gone) – Chris Tomlin
18. The Noise We Make – Chris Tomlin
19. Better Is One Day – Matt Redman
20. Come Let Us Return To The Lord – Matt Redman
21. Salvation – Charlie Hall
22. Revolution Cry – Jason Wade
23. You Are God Alone – Phillips, Craig, and Dean
24. My Hope Is In You – Third Day
25. King Of Glory – Third Day
26. By His Wounds – Mac Powell & Brian Littrell
27. What If His People Prayed – Casting Crowns
28. If We Are The Body – Casting Crowns
29. Voice Of Truth – Casting Crowns
30. East To West – Casting Crowns
40. God Be Merciful To Me (Psalm 51) – Jars of Clay
41. We Win! – David Crowder Band
42. Here Is Our King – David Crowder Band
43. All Because of Jesus – Steve Fee
44. Awesome God (Your Voice) – Vicky Beeching (change a few words & it would be great!)
45. Blessed Be Your Name – Tree63
46. I Am Free – Newsboys
47. Alive – POD
48. Strong Tower – Kutless
49. Word Of God Speak – Kutless
50. Here Am I – Mercy Me
51. You’re Worthy Of My Praise – Jeremy Camp
52. Walk By Faith – Jeremy Camp
53. My Fortress – Jeremy Camp
54. Hero – Skillet
55. Rebirthing – Skillet
It's a nice list, but not all the songs listed are good for congregational singing.
RandyWayne
10-10-2013, 12:17 PM
Back to the original subject...
The Author of "Why Men Hate Going to Church" asked a music leader to come up with a list of worship songs for men. Here's the list:
It's a nice list, but not all the songs listed are good for congregational singing.
I would say the bulk are not right for congregational singing. Can you imagine everyone trying to sing a rousing rendition of POD's Alive? LOL
Also, Chris Tomlin seems a just a little over represented.
n david
10-10-2013, 12:29 PM
I would say the bulk are not right for congregational singing. Can you imagine everyone trying to sing a rousing rendition of POD's Alive? LOL
As long as the worship leader had dreads and the guitar and bass players headbanged while they sang.
Also, Chris Tomlin seems a just a little over represented.
I saw that too. LoL I guess Tomlin writes manly songs!
Praxeas
10-10-2013, 01:54 PM
DID YOU WATCH THIS ONE?
TIME TO GET SERIOUS.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxX2_D11qBw
This man is telling you the Truth. Truth that may take his life.
I saw some choreographed dancing....must have had that debil, toe tappin, jungle music playing... :heeheehee
Praxeas
10-10-2013, 01:57 PM
I would say the bulk are not right for congregational singing. Can you imagine everyone trying to sing a rousing rendition of POD's Alive? LOL
Also, Chris Tomlin seems a just a little over represented.
that's what I was thinking...
Maybe for Sunday School the kids can rock out to Youth of the Nation..
Esaias
10-10-2013, 02:18 PM
Why no dubstep in the mix?
navygoat1998
10-10-2013, 02:29 PM
Why no dubstep in the mix?
https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/553512_10202012905912842_1724762302_n.jpg
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