View Full Version : Do you have to support Israel no matter what?
odooley6985
10-10-2013, 02:36 PM
Just a questions.
I read this article today and for some reason I got mad. Israel has done other things in the past that have ignited anger. Is it un christian to get mad at Israel? Do I have to support/bless them no matter what?
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/moment/2013/10/israel_s_expropriation_of_bedouin_lands_the_jewish _state_s_other_land_grab.html
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Originalist
10-10-2013, 02:50 PM
Just a questions.
I read this article today and for some reason I got mad. Israel has done other things in the past that have ignited anger. Is it un christian to get mad at Israel? Do I have to support/bless them no matter what?
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/moment/2013/10/israel_s_expropriation_of_bedouin_lands_the_jewish _state_s_other_land_grab.html
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if this is in the wrong forum feel free to move.
While personally I support Israel in a general sense, I do not see the need for the USA to give them aid financially. Nor do I see the need for this unconditional support some Christians insist on. Having said that, I do think they are the only normal country in that region.
Praxeas
10-10-2013, 02:58 PM
What does it mean to "Support Israel"?
n david
10-10-2013, 03:02 PM
Just a questions.
I read this article today and for some reason I got mad. Israel has done other things in the past that have ignited anger. Is it un christian to get mad at Israel? Do I have to support/bless them no matter what?
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/moment/2013/10/israel_s_expropriation_of_bedouin_lands_the_jewish _state_s_other_land_grab.html
Mods,
if this is in the wrong forum feel free to move.
I don't believe we have to support everything Israel does as a nation; however, we should support their right to exist and be free.
If the United states is going to give financial aid to any country on earth it should be to the nation of Israel as they are God's chosen people and God gave the promise that He would bless those that blessed them. As to them taking that land it is already thier land given to them by God. So yes i support them.
Esaias
10-10-2013, 03:19 PM
We give billions of dollars in aid to the Israelis. We also give billions of dollars in aid to the Palestinians. And the Saudis. And so on and so on.
I don't think we should be giving anybody a dime outside our borders, at least not until we get our own house cleaned up first.
odooley6985
10-10-2013, 03:36 PM
If the United states is going to give financial aid to any country on earth it should be to the nation of Israel as they are God's chosen people and God gave the promise that He would bless those that blessed them. As to them taking that land it is already thier land given to them by God. So yes i support them.
This line of thinking is whats wrong with the whole situation.
n david
10-10-2013, 03:41 PM
This line of thinking is whats wrong with the whole situation.
Do you believe God gave Israel certain land?
houston
10-10-2013, 03:43 PM
If the United states is going to give financial aid to any country on earth it should be to the nation of Israel as they are God's chosen people and God gave the promise that He would bless those that blessed them. As to them taking that land it is already thier land given to them by God. So yes i support them.you need to read Galatians
houston
10-10-2013, 03:43 PM
Do you believe God gave Israel certain land?you also need to read Galatians
Esaias
10-10-2013, 03:54 PM
Who is 'Israel', according to the Bible?
"Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"
n david
10-10-2013, 03:54 PM
you also need to read Galatians
I'm assuming you mean Galatians 4, though I don't see what relevance it has to whether we should support the nation or not.
IMO, Romans 11 is more relevant:
"For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,“The Deliverer will come from Zion. He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.” 27 “And this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.” 28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable,"
All Israel will one day be saved. In order for that to happen, Israel must survive, and we should stand by or support them.
you also need to read Galatians
Do you and Odooley6985 hold to replacement theology?
houston
10-10-2013, 05:11 PM
Do you and Odooley6985 hold to replacement theology?never heard of it
Praxeas
10-10-2013, 06:18 PM
If the United states is going to give financial aid to any country on earth it should be to the nation of Israel as they are God's chosen people and God gave the promise that He would bless those that blessed them. As to them taking that land it is already thier land given to them by God. So yes i support them.
This line of thinking is whats wrong with the whole situation.
They didn't actually just "take land that God gave them"...Land was set aside FOR them and then the Arabs attacked. They captured land that was in Arab hands as a part of that war
Jermyn Davidson
10-10-2013, 09:24 PM
Just a questions.
I read this article today and for some reason I got mad. Israel has done other things in the past that have ignited anger. Is it un christian to get mad at Israel? Do I have to support/bless them no matter what?
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/moment/2013/10/israel_s_expropriation_of_bedouin_lands_the_jewish _state_s_other_land_grab.html
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if this is in the wrong forum feel free to move.
NO! NO! NO! NO!
Still, I'd never want to fight AGAINST them either.
RandyWayne
10-10-2013, 11:24 PM
NO! NO! NO! NO!
Still, I'd never want to fight AGAINST them either.
LOL
That's pretty much my thought.
Somehow I get the feeling that if all of China rose up against them, they (China) would end up losing in the end.
They certainly have their issues that I do NOT agree with, but God has a way of dealing with them in His OWN way.
never heard of it
A very brief nut shell cliff notes version of replacement theology is to simply point out that those who hold to this believe that the church has replaced Israel as God chosen people because Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiah. They would also believe that there is no separate eschatological plan for Israel and the church. (this separate plan has nothing to do with salvation in the sense of a separate means of being saved bit rather that all of the old testament promises made to Israel as a nation will one day be fulfilled.)
Nitehawk013
10-11-2013, 04:29 AM
A very brief nut shell cliff notes version of replacement theology is to simply point out that those who hold to this believe that the church has replaced Israel as God chosen people because Israel rejected Jesus as their Messiah. They would also believe that there is no separate eschatological plan for Israel and the church. (this separate plan has nothing to do with salvation in the sense of a separate means of being saved bit rather that all of the old testament promises made to Israel as a nation will one day be fulfilled.)
Yep. It bleeds into a lot fo NT theology too. Most who believe in replacement theology also believe that every promise made to Israel in the OT transfers over to us now completely. I think that is why so many do all their preaching out of the OT to some degree.
seekerman
10-11-2013, 05:32 AM
Is modern day Israel really a nation, and a people, established by God? If so, God has established an antichrist nation-people, a view which I have trouble accepting.
1Jn 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
MarcBee
10-11-2013, 07:31 AM
Is modern day Israel really a nation, and a people, established by God? If so, God has established an antichrist nation-people....
Great point. Most USA Christians, influenced by TV blurbs showing the Wailing Wall, suppose Israel is a very religious country. Rather, Israel is a politically secular nation that is ever-aware of their Jewish traditions and history. So, this is to be distinguished from having any kind of "faith in God." Only about 75% of Israel claims to be any sort of Jewish. Of that 75% nominally "jewish," only 53% attempt to keep any kind of Sabbath observance (just one benchmark for identifying what we think of as jewish. ) Or, out of that 75% Jewish, 35% do not believe in God. So, Jewishness is very loosely defined in Israel, and it may only refer to what one's grandparents claimed. You will find a bigger population of "God's Chosen People" in New York City. So, maybe that's where the Messiah will next appear, in NYC, on the east side of Megiddo Street.
Israel is to be supported because they try to protect civil liberties, unlike the Arab mindset of their neighbors. Israel is a defacto secular nation, unlike their neighbors. It should be all about protecting freedom, and not religion. Your biblical interpretations are only that--interpretations.
TGBTG
10-11-2013, 07:39 AM
Gal 3
15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it.
16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.
Disciple4life
10-11-2013, 08:12 AM
We give billions of dollars in aid to the Israelis. We also give billions of dollars in aid to the Palestinians. And the Saudis. And so on and so on.
I don't think we should be giving anybody a dime outside our borders, at least not until we get our own house cleaned up first.
:yourock
Disciple4life
10-11-2013, 08:13 AM
Is modern day Israel really a nation, and a people, established by God? If so, God has established an antichrist nation-people, a view which I have trouble accepting.
1Jn 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
:thumbsup
Disciple4life
10-11-2013, 08:18 AM
This is what is so dangerous about dispensationalism. We can not tell the future. What if we have it all wrong and we are really persecuting God's chosen? It happened before to the Jews of Jesus's day. They thought they were doing God a favor.
My opinion is that as a nation we need to protect our own borders and stay out of other peoples business. What about our poor, homeless and widows?
Disciple4life
10-11-2013, 08:24 AM
So if people want to support Israel then do it with your own money and blood.
Send Israel a check. Join the Israel army. Move there and pay taxes to support the cause. Just don't ask me to support them by using my tax dollars and sending Americas youth to fight their wars.
Just a questions.
I read this article today and for some reason I got mad. Israel has done other things in the past that have ignited anger. Is it un christian to get mad at Israel? Do I have to support/bless them no matter what?
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/moment/2013/10/israel_s_expropriation_of_bedouin_lands_the_jewish _state_s_other_land_grab.html
Mods,
if this is in the wrong forum feel free to move.
I try really hard not to just dismiss something simply because of the source. I saw this is Slate. I almost just replied that you should not believe anything said by that bunch of radical leftist Israel haters.
Then I told myself not to do that. I generally want people to consider the argument then decide if it stands on its own.
I read the article. And...well... This is SLATE. They are not capable of telling actual factual truth. THey MUST say whatever they say in a way that does damage to the things they hate. That is why Slate exists.
I was right in the first place.
Dude, seriously I suppose one can find a reason to be mad at any country. Im mad at the US about right now. I can give you a list of things that make me mad at Canada, Mexico, England, France (boy thats a long list) China, Russia... I know this is just anathama but I have reason to be angry at NORWAY (gasp and dont tell SLATE).
BUT seriously this is hack journalism. The writer is no more a journalist than Peter the Great was a lover a peace and democracy.
Israel has a serious problem with the Bedouins. They have to do something to deal with the issue. What Israel is doing there is less intrusive than what happens in America with immanent domain claims and this issue with the Bedouins is far less intrusive. These people are doing things that would utterly disgust you.
How would you feel if your daughter was kept utterly uneducated, locked up and sold into marriage at very young age? These tribes do this every day.
They are crime riddled and live on the edge of subsistance poverty. They are bringing kids into the world with no better hope than to live in filth and die young.
Then there is the issue of terrorism. These uber poor communities are breeding grounds for radicalism. Left as they are they will eventually be infiltrated by radial muslims looking for hopless kids to strap bombs on themselves and walk into the local diner to end it all!
What you need to do is consider the source and not let dirtbag leftest haters of Israel be your source of education on the state of things in Israel.
good grief. :throwrock
So if people want to support Israel then do it with your own money and blood.
Send Israel a check. Join the Israel army. Move there and pay taxes to support the cause. Just don't ask me to support them by using my tax dollars and sending Americas youth to fight their wars.
First of all, no American has gone to fight a war for Israel. None.
Second of all, America has a vested interest in stability in the middle east and Israel is the ONLY democracy in the area.
What money we spend in places like Israel has a direct impact on
1. Stability in the US.
2. Trade that makes America wealthy
3. A point of intelegence gathering that allows us to understand what radical islamists who want to distroy AMERICA are doing.
stop being myopic.
Disciple4life
10-11-2013, 09:03 AM
First of all, no American has gone to fight a war for Israel. None.
Second of all, America has a vested interest in stability in the middle east and Israel is the ONLY democracy in the area.
What money we spend in places like Israel has a direct impact on
1. Stability in the US.
2. Trade that makes America wealthy
3. A point of intelegence gathering that allows us to understand what radical islamists who want to distroy AMERICA are doing.
stop being myopic.
Yeah the old spread democracy reason. All these reasons are used by pro- war people to make money. I use to believe just like you. Then my eyes were opened. I have been to the middle east. I have spoken to people from all over the world on this very subject. What you are fed by the media and government is 100% LIES!
Pentecostals use to believe in pacifism. There is a great thread on this subject on the forum.
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?p=1276972#post1276972
n david
10-11-2013, 09:06 AM
So if people want to support Israel then do it with your own money and blood.
Send Israel a check. Join the Israel army. Move there and pay taxes to support the cause. Just don't ask me to support them by using my tax dollars and sending Americas youth to fight their wars.
I guess I missed where America's youth were sent to fight in the 6 day war, or any other Israeli war for that matter. When did this happen?
seekerman
10-11-2013, 09:11 AM
Israel is to be supported because they try to protect civil liberties, unlike the Arab mindset of their neighbors. Israel is a defacto secular nation, unlike their neighbors. It should be all about protecting freedom, and not religion. Your biblical interpretations are only that--interpretations.
Exactly. I agree!
Disciple4life
10-11-2013, 09:14 AM
I guess I missed where America's youth were sent to fight in the 6 day war, or any other Israeli war for that matter. When did this happen?
I never claimed that American youth were sent to fight their wars.
What I said was
Send Israel a check. Join the Israel army. Move there and pay taxes to support the cause. Just don't ask me to support them by using my tax dollars and sending Americas youth to fight their wars.
If you say that you want to support Israel then it appears that you are not opposed to support them with military action. I am opposed to helping Israel in the future with American troops.
Anytime we send a country money or weapons we are helping them fight their war.
Esaias
10-11-2013, 09:14 AM
Israel is a defacto secular nation...
You mean like the former governments of Egypt, Libya, Iraq, and the current government of Syria?
Esaias
10-11-2013, 09:17 AM
Is modern day Israel really a nation, and a people, established by God? If so, God has established an antichrist nation-people, a view which I have trouble accepting.
1Jn 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
God raised up Nebuchadnezzar, too.
Disciple4life
10-11-2013, 09:18 AM
God raised up Nebuchadnezzar, too.
:highfive
houston
10-11-2013, 09:24 AM
God raised up Nebuchadnezzar, too.and Obama...
n david
10-11-2013, 09:24 AM
I never claimed that American youth were sent to fight their wars.
You did too! Look at the part in bold...
So if people want to support Israel then do it with your own money and blood.
Send Israel a check. Join the Israel army. Move there and pay taxes to support the cause. Just don't ask me to support them by using my tax dollars and sending Americas youth to fight their wars.
Just don't ask me to support them by using my tax dollars and sending Americas youth to fight their wars
You said it.
And even with your "I didn't write what I wrote" claim you made the same kind of statement...
I am opposed to helping Israel in the future with American troops.
My question, again, when were America's soldiers ever sent to fight an Israeli war? Name just one Israeli war (6 day War, Yom Kippur War, '82 Lebanon War) where the US sent troops to fight for Israel.
Disciple4life
10-11-2013, 09:25 AM
I thought we were supposed to spread the Gospel, not democracy.
If Jesus wanted to conquer, he could have brought down a army of angels to kill anyone who opposed him.This was the same false assumption that the disciples originally had. They wanted a conquering King that would kill all of their enemies.
Disciple4life
10-11-2013, 09:31 AM
You did too! Look at the part in bold...
You said it.
My question, again, when were America's youth ever sent to fight an Israeli war? Name just one Israeli war (6 day War, Yom Kippur War, '82 Lebanon War) where the US sent troops to fight for Israel.
I was speaking of it happening in the future. Which is what some people want.
I am not going to get into an English debate. But I did not use the word "when".
I did not say "when we sent troops".
Disciple4life
10-11-2013, 09:34 AM
You did too! Look at the part in bold...
You said it.
And even with your "I didn't write what I wrote" claim you made the same kind of statement...
My question, again, when were America's soldiers ever sent to fight an Israeli war? Name just one Israeli war (6 day War, Yom Kippur War, '82 Lebanon War) where the US sent troops to fight for Israel.
But we have sent them money and weapons. We have helped them. We are helping them right now.
n david
10-11-2013, 09:35 AM
I thought we were supposed to spread the Gospel, not democracy.
If Jesus wanted to conquer, he could have brought down a army of angels to kill anyone who opposed him.This was the same false assumption that the disciples originally had. They wanted a conquering King that would kill all of their enemies.
FTR, for the most part I agree with you. We shouldn't be trying to spread democracy to the Middle East. It's a colossal failure. It simply will never work. The US can spending all the money it has to try to spread democracy through financing rebels to overthrow dictators, blowing up terrorists, dropping pamphlets and airing radio and tv shows - it doesn't matter, it won't work.
These people have lived this way thousands of years and nothing we do will change that. Our interventions are only causing the people to be more angry with us. I used to believe what Bush spoke on spreading democracy. I don't anymore.
However, I still believe we should support and protect Israel. We are the only reason Iran, Syria or Egypt hasn't destroyed Israel.
Yeah the old spread democracy reason. All these reasons are used by pro- war people to make money. I use to believe just like you. Then my eyes were opened. I have been to the middle east. I have spoken to people from all over the world on this very subject. What you are fed by the media and government is 100% LIES!
Pentecostals use to believe in pacifism. There is a great thread on this subject on the forum.
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?p=1276972#post1276972
uhm... i didnt say anything about "spreading democracy"
im not interested in spreading democracy.
D4life, you are the one who brought up spreading democracy. you brought it up as a strawman to knock down.
that aint the issue.
the issue here is that slate is telling a slanted truth to make Israel look bad because that is what they do because they hate Israel as all liberals and most liberatarians do.
spreading democracy has never been the reason for America to support Israel.
Disciple4life
10-11-2013, 09:42 AM
FTR, for the most part I agree with you. We shouldn't be trying to spread democracy to the Middle East. It's a colossal failure. It simply will never work. The US can spending all the money it has to try to spread democracy through financing rebels to overthrow dictators, blowing up terrorists, dropping pamphlets and airing radio and tv shows - it doesn't matter, it won't work.
These people have lived this way thousands of years and nothing we do will change that. Our interventions are only causing the people to be more angry with us. I used to believe what Bush spoke on spreading democracy. I don't anymore.
However, I still believe we should support and protect Israel. We are the only reason Iran, Syria or Egypt hasn't destroyed Israel.
I know some people want to protect Israel. You might be right. I may be wrong. I give you that. I have been wrong before.
But we have never sent troops to help Israel fight their wars. Which other posters have repeated several times. Kinda seems like Israel is doing O.K. on their own.
My only point I would like to make is that we believe that Israel is still around because of something the U.S. has done. This is something that we have been told for decades so that we will continue to support Israel with finances and weapons.
Honestly I have been just giving my opinion but look how worked up everybody gets if you don't agree that we bend over backward to help Israel.
:heeheehee
Disciple4life
10-11-2013, 09:52 AM
You said
"Second of all, America has a vested interest in stability in the middle east and Israel is the ONLY democracy in the area."
I did not mean to take your words out of context. You did not say anything about "spreading democracy". I apologize.
I do not hate Israel. I actually try to love everybody. I think we all do.
My only point is that many people believe Israel can do no wrong and that we should help them regardless of the circumstances.
I apologize if I misrepresented what I was trying to say.
You said
"Second of all, America has a vested interest in stability in the middle east and Israel is the ONLY democracy in the area."
I did not mean to take your words out of context. You did not say anything about "spreading democracy". I apologize.
I do not hate Israel. I actually try to love everybody. I think we all do.
My only point is that many people believe Israel can do no wrong and that we should help them regardless of the circumstances.
I apologize if I misrepresented what I was trying to say.
saying "only democracy in the area has nothing to do with spreading democracy.
these are very different things.
I beleive that Israel is a nation and therefore does things that are viewed as right and wrong based on their own national interest.
I see MANY who hate Israel because of actions they view negitivly without appling the context they are in to the situtation.
Does Israel act with a heavy hand at times? (bombing Syria's nuclear site a couple of years ago) Of course they do. But they are surrounded by nations that have a stated goal of distruction of Israel as a nation.
We support/help our ally because they are a democratic state, surrounded by nations that are tyranical and that seek their distruction. We assit them in maintianing thier existance because if we do not, they will cease to exist, at the hands of people who want nothing more than to distroy them and enslave the people that live there.
n david
10-11-2013, 10:15 AM
I was speaking of it happening in the future. Which is what some people want.
I am not going to get into an English debate. But I did not use the word "when".
I did not say "when we sent troops".
Okay. I misunderstood what was written.
But we have sent them money and weapons. We have helped them. We are helping them right now.
True. We have given them a significant amount of weapons and money.
Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II. To date, the United States has provided Israel $118 billion (current, or non-inflation-adjusted, dollars) in bilateral assistance.
In 2007, the Bush Administration and the Israeli government agreed to a 10-year, $30 billion military aid package spanning from Fiscal Year (FY) 2009 to Fiscal Year 2018.
Source Link (http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf)
(Great in-depth report from the Congressional Research Service on US Foreign Aid to Israel")
Israel is getting $3.1 Billion for FY 2014
Egypt, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Israel all receive over a billion dollars in foreign aid.
Source Link (http://foreignassistance.gov/CountryIntro.aspx)
(When the map comes up, make sure you click the arrow next to "Filter Information by Fiscal Year: 2014" in order to obtain the most recent info. It initially loads with FY 2013 numbers, even though it shows as 2014.)
Interesting...
We also have $1.2 Billion in weapons stored for as an emergency US stockpile. If we're in a war and need quick access to arms and equipment, it's in Israel. Also, if Israel is in a war and needs additional arms or equipment, they can ask the US for permission to access the US stockpile.
If Israel were a nation of Muslims and was a stable democracy seeking to simply exist and build a first world life for its people, and were pressed on all sides by tyranical naitons seeking its distruction, I would say we are obligated to support them.
it would be in our own selfish nation intrest to do so.
MarcBee
10-11-2013, 10:17 AM
You mean like the former governments of Egypt, Libya, Iraq, and the current government of Syria?
No. A clue for you might have been my phrase "Arab mindset," in distinction to Israel's western-derived political ethic. (Makes sense since hundreds of thousands of future Israelis migrated from Europe between 1929-33.)
But okay, seems regrettable that the USA govt. decided to throw the Shaw of Iran (a secular muslim) under the bus. He had been educated in Switzerland (an interesting place to learn something about political tolerance,) and he supported recognition of Israel. No, I wasn't trying to teach a compare-and-contrast lesson about middle east politics, not that I could anyhow.
:bigbaby
Esaias
10-11-2013, 11:06 AM
No. A clue for you might have been my phrase "Arab mindset," in distinction to Israel's western-derived political ethic. (Makes sense since hundreds of thousands of future Israelis migrated from Europe between 1929-33.)
But okay, seems regrettable that the USA govt. decided to throw the Shaw of Iran (a secular muslim) under the bus. He had been educated in Switzerland (an interesting place to learn something about political tolerance,) and he supported recognition of Israel. No, I wasn't trying to teach a compare-and-contrast lesson about middle east politics, not that I could anyhow.
:bigbaby
Libya was a secular government. Gadaffi was gunnin for the Muslim Brotherhood and other 'radical Islamists'. Syria has a secular government. Iraq had a secular government. Of course such nations have an 'Arab mindset', just as the Israelis have an 'Israeli mindset' and Europeans have a European mindset.
We have been steadily overthrowing and overturning and eliminating secular Arab states, and what have they been replaced with? The Muslim Brotherhood, Al Qaeda, radical Shia and Sunni jihadists, etc.
Interestingly, we love and support Saudi Arabia, the source of Wahabbism (radical jihadism), a completely Islamic religious state.
As for Israel being all for freedom, and all the Arabs being opposed to freedom (they hate us for our freedoms???), that is silly.
'Freedom' has lost its meaning worldwide. The 'West' is not much different than the old Iron Curtain these days, and any discrepancies are quickly being made up for.
Israel still practices a form of 'apartheid'. Remember when that was bad? SA anyone?
There are no 'good guys' anymore.
Esaias
10-11-2013, 11:08 AM
And about that 'western-derived political ethic'. I guess you could say that, when you consider socialism is a 'western political ethic'.
MarcBee
10-11-2013, 11:32 AM
And about that 'western-derived political ethic'. I guess you could say that, when you consider socialism is a 'western political ethic'.
:bigbaby
Of course modern socialism is Western. What's the relevance?
If you wish, here's all about a famous Israeli socialist (born in Russia, even, and Harvard educated--maybe a really social socialist.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryeh_Eliav
seekerman
10-11-2013, 11:38 AM
Given the choice, would it be better to live in Israel than Saudi Arabia? What middle eastern country would be a better place to live than Israel?
I can think of none. It's not because of it's religious leanings though, it's because of the personal freedoms which exist there that do not exist in other middle eastern countries.
This is why it's important to align with Israel.
Given the choice, would it be better to live in Israel than Saudi Arabia? What middle eastern country would be a better place to live than Israel?
I can think of none. It's not because of it's religious leanings though, it's because of the personal freedoms which exist there that do not exist in other middle eastern countries.
This is why it's important to align with Israel.
in particular, as we are discussing the situation associated with the liked story from SLATE, we have a situation in this freedom loving nation that they are trying to correct.
Lets suppose that IN AMERICA there was a population of people, living nomadically within the boarders of this country on land that was not "owned" by anyone and these same people lived a subsistance poverty stricken existance. And they refused to allow their children to attend any schools. In particular, they kept their daughters illiterate on purpose, utterly without any education and utterly dependant on a domanant male population. These girls were given away in marriage at ages as young as 12 or 13.
What would be the sentiment? Would be be wringing our hands about "taking their land" which they do not own. Would we be upset that these peoples "way of life" was being exterminated?
Or would we put a stop to the utter horror of what they were doing?
Do we really care that these people have been living this way since the middle ages or before? Do we really care about that?
Israel still practices a form of 'apartheid'. Remember when that was bad? SA anyone?
Again, lets put things in context. The people that Israel is trying to keep seperated from everybody else are the Palistinians who have a national stated objective of distroying the nation of Israel and seeing Jerusalem as the capital of an Islamists Palistinian nation.
I suggest to you that Isreal has been utterly patient with these people far more than I would have been.
I would have built me a huge bull dozer and pushed them all off into the Med.
seekerman
10-11-2013, 12:01 PM
in particular, as we are discussing the situation associated with the liked story from SLATE, we have a situation in this freedom loving nation that they are trying to correct.
Lets suppose that IN AMERICA there was a population of people, living nomadically within the boarders of this country on land that was not "owned" by anyone and these same people lived a subsistance poverty stricken existance. And they refused to allow their children to attend any schools. In particular, they kept their daughters illiterate on purpose, utterly without any education and utterly dependant on a domanant male population. These girls were given away in marriage at ages as young as 12 or 13.
What would be the sentiment? Would be be wringing our hands about "taking their land" which they do not own. Would we be upset that these peoples "way of life" was being exterminated?
Or would we put a stop to the utter horror of what they were doing?
Do we really care that these people have been living this way since the middle ages or before? Do we really care about that?
No, we'd really not care to the extent we do. It's really about the oil. I mean, look at poverty stricken equatorial Africa. If the oil was in equatorial Africa to the extent it's in the middle east, we'd be more interested in equatorial Africa.
The politics of the area is oil driven, not religious driven.
No, we'd really not care to the extent we do. It's really about the oil. I mean, look at poverty stricken equatorial Africa. If the oil was in equatorial Africa to the extent it's in the middle east, we'd be more interested in equatorial Africa.
The politics of the area is oil driven, not religious driven.
well, im not sure I agree completely.
First off, we are talking about Isreal. the issue this tread started over, is unrelated to oil.
I was addressing the very specific issue from the linked article.
I think we would all freak out and go berzerk if there were people living in America who were acting like the Bedouins. We would collectively demand the government go in and move them off to some place and insure their kids got educations.
Now, I do agree that supporting Israel as a stable democracy in the ME is related to the geo-political reality of the area. This whole area is very important economically (oil) and stratigically (again related to oil) to the rest of the world. The US is part of the rest of the world, and stability demands we care more about this area than we do subsaharian Africa.
Is modern day Israel really a nation, and a people, established by God? If so, God has established an antichrist nation-people, a view which I have trouble accepting.
1Jn 2:22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
So do you belief in replacement theology?
seekerman
10-11-2013, 07:06 PM
So do you belief in replacement theology?
I guess one could call it that. I don't believe there's one plan for Israel and another for non-Israel. Israel or non-Israel, the only redemption is by the blood of the Lamb of God, Jesus the Christ.
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