The Freedom... of a Curse?

[Jermyn Davidson]

Earlier this year, Brother Stoneking spoke at CLC in Stockton, CA where he spent a significant amount of time speaking about why preachers who leave this Apostolic truth never return.

"They'll never be back. They're gone."
"Revelation and deception feel exactly the same because they both come from God."

Start from the 26 minute mark and his point is made by the 52 minute mark.

I think it would be a good thing for me to listen to this sermon and to examine myself, in the Light of the Holy Scriptures. I hope you decide to do the same thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDIrog1Sb1c

[ILG]

Wow, if we can never tell the difference, then maybe it's HIM who is deceived. I mean, how would he know?? :foottap Seriously.

[ILG]

He mentions "falling away from faith". I think what he meant by that is "leaving the church and the doctrines we teach". But the Bible doesn't say "leaving Lee Stoneking's church is the same as falling away from faith".

[MarcBee]

"Revelation and deception feel exactly the same because they both come from God."

Good catch. Consider the logic behind it (not that logic is ever required for such matters of faith.)

--Only the HG leads one to have faith in the only begotten Son of God, correct?

--Therefore, the default condition of an unregenerated or rebellious heart is essentially one of unbelief, correct?

So, according to LS (and whoever wrote 2 Thessalonians) AFTER someone tips away from wanting to live by faith, God still needs to send more delusion, just to seal the deal, right? What a waste of HG energy, to help people NOT believe, at a time when they already were NOT believing. Home run for God, he never loses.

Once again, the god sounds just like the men who continue to create him.

(PS. I didn't watch vid. Hope I got the gist of it, based on having heard enough of LS in the 90s.)

[Ferd]

i think ive stated my position on Stoneking enough for folk to know where i stand on some of his more....creative.... doctrinal views....

but this:
"Revelation and deception feel exactly the same because they both come from God."


that right there is interesting. Its also true. Now I dont believe that everyone who left the UPCI has recieved a spirit of deception, but it is without question in my mind that some have and that it is a true statement that deception and revalation feel the same, because the both come from God....

that scares the pants off of me. I dont want to recieved from God something that will distroy me.

[ILG]

i think ive stated my position on Stoneking enough for folk to know where i stand on some of his more....creative.... doctrinal views....

but this:
"Revelation and deception feel exactly the same because they both come from God."


that right there is interesting. Its also true. Now I dont believe that everyone who left the UPCI has recieved a spirit of deception, but it is without question in my mind that some have and that it is a true statement that deception and revalation feel the same, because the both come from God....

that scares the pants off of me. I dont want to recieved from God something that will distroy me.

How do you know you haven't already? If there is no way to distinguish it? Frankly, I think what Stoneking is saying is hogwash. Some people are deceived but I also believe there is something in their spirit that knows it on some level.

[RandyWayne]

I certainly DO think that God can and does send deceptions, but I also believe the circumstances are so extreme that we don't need to live in fear as some "men of gawd!" will inevitably use it as a tool of control.

[Ferd]

How do you know you haven't already? If there is no way to distinguish it? Frankly, I think what Stoneking is saying is hogwash. Some people are deceived but I also believe there is something in their spirit that knows it on some level.

its a good question. I dont think it is hogwash to say that deception and revalation feel alike as they both come from God. Ive seen some things that i wont share here that clear that up for me.

I would also add that LS ought to be mindful of his own statements as he has himself walked a line that puts him in the crosshairs.

(see how i got that word hair in there?).

[Ferd]

I certainly DO think that God can and does send deceptions, but I also believe the circumstances are so extreme that we don't need to live in fear as some "men of gawd!" will inevitably use it as a tool of control.

my friend, when I say it scare me.... I mean that as someone who is responsible for teaching and preaching. I mean it as in the fear of the Lord..
I want to make sure that what I say, is what God means, and not what I have come to believe via my own agenda.

I dont mean that people (other people) need to be in fear. And no man ought to fear some men of gawd as you say. That is just wrong.

[ILG]

I certainly DO think that God can and does send deceptions, but I also believe the circumstances are so extreme that we don't need to live in fear as some "men of gawd!" will inevitably use it as a tool of control.

Right.

[kclee4jc]

Earlier this year, Brother Stoneking spoke at CLC in Stockton, CA where he spent a significant amount of time speaking about why preachers who leave this Apostolic truth never return.

"They'll never be back. They're gone."
"Revelation and deception feel exactly the same because they both come from God."

Start from the 26 minute mark and his point is made by the 52 minute mark.

I think it would be a good thing for me to listen to this sermon and to examine myself, in the Light of the Holy Scriptures. I hope you decide to do the same thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDIrog1Sb1c

amen

[Praxeas]

I don't go to church to hear the "us Apostolics, dem reprobates. God send dem strong delusion. Stay in de boat" rahrah stuff

[navygoat1998]

I don't go to church to hear the "us Apostolics, dem reprobates. God send dem strong delusion. Stay in de boat" rahrah stuff

:nod

[houston]

You are going to take your cues from that snake in the grass. He is deceived himself. Women and their spineless husbands are following him as he pliés off a cliff.

[Revelationist]

Those that fell away in the days that scripture was given was those that went back to Judisem. He's miss using that verse...

[Revelationist]

Those that fell away in the days that scripture was given was those that went back to Judisem. He's miss using that verse...

When going back to Judaism they were denying Jesus Christ and going back to sacrifice.... Quit a difference from what he's making it... Most that leave the UPC don't deny Him....

[MarcBee]

You are going to take your cues from that snake in the grass. He is deceived himself. Women and their spineless husbands are following him as he pliés off a cliff.

Love your imagery, Houst, "plies off a cliff." I looked for that accented "e" on my keyboard, but I guess it's something I have to enable?
But what cliff do you mean? LS has weathered controversy for 2 or 3 decades so far, and is not going anywhere. :grampa That's the "beauty" of religion based on unclear texts--it's very flexible within certain prerequisites of other beliefs, but as long as a belief (new or old) can be backed up with a kind of plausible scriptural interpretation, the remaining challenge is largely salesmanship--to sell the belief to others. Emotion has sold many a vacuum cleaners.

[Lafon]

Earlier this year, Brother Stoneking spoke at CLC in Stockton, CA where he spent a significant amount of time speaking about why preachers who leave this Apostolic truth never return.

"They'll never be back. They're gone."


I think the point which LS makes is not exclusive to "preachers," rather it applies equally to all who forsake Apostolic truth.

Also, is this not the "gist" of the following statement from Proverbs 21:16?

"The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead."

[Revelationist]

Fear tactics...

[houston]

Love your imagery, Houst, "plies off a cliff." I looked for that accented "e" on my keyboard, but I guess it's something I have to enable? But what cliff do you mean? LS has weathered controversy for 2 or 3 decades so far, and is not going anywhere. :grampa That's the "beauty" of religion based on unclear texts--it's very flexible within certain prerequisites of other beliefs, but as long as a belief (new or old) can be backed up with a kind of plausible scriptural interpretation, the remaining challenge is largely salesmanship--to sell the belief to others. Emotion has sold many a vacuum cleaners.blame it on my hypoglycemia.

I used that term because he was a balarina or something similar.

[houston]

Fear tactics...Have to keep the people in their place. Are you still in Borger?

[houston]

Where is JD?

[Abiding Now]

Falling away is leaving doctrine Heb. 6:1-6, not backsliding which is being overcome by a fault (sin) Gal. 6:1.

One can't be restored, the other can be restored.

[Revelationist]

Have to keep the people in their place. Are you still in Borger?

Yes... Still in Borger...

[houston]

Yes... Still in Borger...I think I drove through when I was a kid. Passed a storefront apostolic church.

[navygoat1998]

I think I drove through when I was a kid. Passed a storefront apostolic church.

Did you feel the Holy Ghost????

[Revelationist]

I think I drove through when I was a kid. Passed a storefront apostolic church.
We've been on main st. For around 16 years now...

[houston]

We've been on main st. For around 16 years now...you are the storefront?

[Revelationist]

you are the storefront?

Yes... We bought a supply store... We are now at the place where we can pay it off...

[houston]

Yes... We bought a supply store... We are now at the place where we can pay it off...awesome

[houston]

Did you feel the Holy Ghost????well, I am mostly a preterist now. something rubbed off.

[navygoat1998]

well, I am mostly a preterist now. something rubbed off.

Heretic :spit

[Revelationist]

well, I am mostly a preterist now. something rubbed off.


Truth is awesome. :-)

[houston]

Heretic :spitLol

[Fraxeas]

Ha. Some of my favorite people are 'heretics.' (We do all grasp that the charge itself amounts to heresy, I hope)

[Timmy]

Wow, if we can never tell the difference, then maybe it's HIM who is deceived. I mean, how would he know?? :foottap Seriously.

Well? How would you know? :heeheehee

[Fraxeas]

HA! that is the question. i think one is deceived when they start going around looking for people who are deceived. Of course the guy has to come up with that mush, in order to quiet the sheeple/sleep at night, etc.

[Esaias]

I couldn't get past the first 52 seconds.

I mean... seriously?

:heeheehee

[MawMaw]

Earlier this year, Brother Stoneking spoke at CLC in Stockton, CA where he spent a significant amount of time speaking about why preachers who leave this Apostolic truth never return.

"They'll never be back. They're gone."
"Revelation and deception feel exactly the same because they both come from God."

Start from the 26 minute mark and his point is made by the 52 minute mark.

I think it would be a good thing for me to listen to this sermon and to examine myself, in the Light of the Holy Scriptures. I hope you decide to do the same thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDIrog1Sb1c

Thanks for sharing this Jermyn. :)

What a sobering statement...."Revelation and deception feel exactly the
same because they both come from God."

Oh Lord, Please don't let me live my life and end up being deceived
and lost.

Though many mock and make fun of him, I for one, enjoy Bro. Stonekings ministry.

[RandyWayne]

Thanks for sharing this Jermyn. :)

What a sobering statement...."Revelation and deception feel exactly the
same because they both come from God."

Oh Lord, Please don't let me live my life and end up being deceived
and lost.

Though many mock and make fun of him, I for one, enjoy Bro. Stonekings ministry.

I suppose.

On the same note I guess I "enjoy" listening to Giorgio Tsoukalos, otherwise known as "that wild hair guy on Ancient Aliens" as well.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-L7fpjxhBtjU/TsVPAl-jW_I/AAAAAAAABwY/DIcPeAIcwO4/s400/Ancient%2BAliens.jpg

[Real Realism]

I suppose.

On the same note I guess I "enjoy" listening to Giorgio Tsoukalos, otherwise known as "that wild hair guy on Ancient Aliens" as well.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-L7fpjxhBtjU/TsVPAl-jW_I/AAAAAAAABwY/DIcPeAIcwO4/s400/Ancient%2BAliens.jpg

:spit

[Timmy]

I suppose.

On the same note I guess I "enjoy" listening to Giorgio Tsoukalos, otherwise known as "that wild hair guy on Ancient Aliens" as well.

...and the spray tan?

[Timmy]

"Revelation and deception feel exactly the same because they both come from God."

:killinme

[Revelationist]

Thanks for sharing this Jermyn. :)

What a sobering statement...."Revelation and deception feel exactly the
same because they both come from God."

Oh Lord, Please don't let me live my life and end up being deceived
and lost.

Though many mock and make fun of him, I for one, enjoy Bro. Stonekings ministry.


How could you possibly know according to Him?

[crakjak]

The bondage of fear to tradition, spiritual abuse, spiritual terrorism. Religious bigotry at its worst, ruling over the folks with fear. That is not what God is!!!


It better for someone to live like the devil, just don't ever believe anything different than this, this is the end of the line.

I will never stop seeking after God to know Him as He really is, and I am not afraid that He will ........ me for seeking, and desiring.

God is not a trickster, He will forgive more than 7x70 in one day, he will leave the 99 for the one lost sheep. "Come unto me my yoke is easy and my burden is light" This preaching is the same message that the Pharisees preached, a message that keep the folks in line, by fear of eternal conscience torment.

That is not the gospel.

[Disciple4life]

Paul never preached hell to get people saved. Hmm Peter didn't either. Maybe we are on to something. The Apostles just kept preaching Jesus until the people asked "What must I do".

[Esaias]

Paul never preached hell to get people saved. Hmm Peter didn't either. Maybe we are on to something. The Apostles just kept preaching Jesus until the people asked "What must I do".

When Peter preached in Acts 2, the people responded with 'what shall we do?'

What brought them to that desire to know 'what shall we do'? Was it all the feel good warm fuzzies Peter emanated in his preaching?

Or was it something else?

But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

which included this:

and on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: and I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: the sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come

And this:

and it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Saved from what?

Speaking of Jesus, he said in the same message:

him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain

Jesus, a man approved of God by signs and wonders, YOU have BY WICKED HANDS crucified and killed.

Speaking of his resurrection, he concluded with:

Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

So, he preached they were guilty of murdering the Man whom God has raised up and declared to be Messiah and LORD.

Gee, I wonder if 'hell' was on those peoples' minds, at that point?

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Here's another sample of Peter's doctrine:

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

2nd Peter chapter 2 is a sermon all about how the wicked will be destroyed by hellfire.

Oh, and so is the 3rd chapter of the same epistle.

Peter 'preached hell', so did Paul, so did Jesus. In fact, Jesus 'preached hell' more than anybody in the bible.

[Disciple4life]

First I said nothing about warm fuzzies.

Peter did it without saying you are going to hell. Too many preachers take the easy way out. If people don't listen the preacher just condems them to hell. Huh I didn't know preachers had that power.

Plus you can not read minds.

[Disciple4life]

Peter 'preached hell', so did Paul, so did Jesus. In fact, Jesus 'preached hell' more than anybody in the bible.

First thing Peter did not preach hell to force people to get saved out of fear. Later on Peter taught on punishment from God. He did this to saints that were already saved.

Before we get in the whole Hell thing you do realize that the KJV translators took three different Greek words and translated each instance Hell?
When we do discuss Hell it would not be fruitful to argue if we are not willing to bring the Greek into the discussion.

Plus you do realize when you put stuff in red and all caps it is like you are yelling. Sure it makes you feel better. But everyone else thinks you are ranting. This is not the best way to get people to come over to your side or to win an argument.

Wow, everybody around here is so angry. :icecream

[Esaias]

First I said nothing about warm fuzzies.

Peter did it without saying you are going to hell.

So any preaching that hell is the fate of the wicked is unbiblical, then?

[Esaias]

Before we get in the whole Hell thing you do realize that the KJV translators took three different Greek words and translated each instance Hell?
When we do discuss Hell it would not be fruitful to argue if we are not willing to bring the Greek into the discussion.

Yes, Hades, means the grave, and Gehenna, which means the unquenchable fire of God's judgement upon the wicked. Tartarus is another discussion altogether.

Plus you do realize when you put stuff in red and all caps it is like you are yelling. Sure it makes you feel better. But everyone else thinks you are ranting. This is not the best way to get people to come over to your side or to win an argument.

First of all, friend, I am not interested in 'getting people to come over to my side' nor am I interested in 'winning an argument'. God's Word is what it is, we either accept it, or we do not.

Second of all, I did not type in 'all caps'.

Third of all (?!), I used emphasis, using bold font, underlining, and red type and also larger font size. This is not equivalent to 'yelling' or 'ranting'. If you think it is then perhaps you need to mature a bit.

The fact remains, the NT, which comprises only about 25 percent of the Bible, contains about 50 percent of the teaching on 'hell'. Jesus preached about hell, warned about hell, warned about final death as the fate of the wicked, Paul preached it, Peter preached, they all did. In fact, practically ALL preachers did so until about the last century or so, when suddenly 'hell' fell into disfavor, and preachers and their followers began to think that they knew better than God, and his apostles and prophets, and that they should now begin to preach a candy-coated gospel message.



Wow, everybody around here is so angry. :icecream

Seems to me you are the one getting angry about 'preaching hell'. I'm not angry. I learned awhile back getting angry over internet forum posts is silly and unproductive.

:dogpat

[Timmy]

"Revelation and deception feel exactly the same because they both come from God."

:toofunny
:killinme
:lol
:ursofunny

[Esaias]

"Revelation and deception feel exactly the same because they both come from God."

:toofunny
:killinme
:lol
:ursofunny

Is this your new motto? lol

I still can't understand how anyone can listen to the guy. I just don't get it.

[Timmy]

Is this your new motto? lol

I still can't understand how anyone can listen to the guy. I just don't get it.

I think he's funny. :heeheehee

[Esaias]

I think he's funny. :heeheehee

The word 'creepy' comes to mind, to be honest.

[Revelationist]

I was thinking about the holy hair deal today... Why wouldn't men want to have power too?

[crakjak]

"Revelation and deception feel exactly the same because they both come from God."


A house divided against itself cannot stand.