View Full Version : Strange Fire Conference
kclee4jc
10-16-2013, 12:25 PM
I'm listening now to the live stream of John Macarthur's "Strange Fire" conference. Michael Brown has been talking about this conference and the rediculous ideas being pushed for some time now.
John Macarthur is clearly a cesassionist. It seems he is taking the radical and bizarre behaviors of the most far fetched charismatic movements and pushing them onto the entire charismatic/Pentecostal movement.
http://www.tmstrangefire.org
n david
10-16-2013, 12:37 PM
Why would someone name their conference "Strange Fire Conference?"
:toofunny
Praxeas
10-16-2013, 12:39 PM
lol..Maybe he is just ingratiating himself on his peer group after being called out for heresy on the Eternal Son doctrine...
kclee4jc
10-16-2013, 12:41 PM
Why would someone name their conference "Strange Fire Conference?"
:toofunny
his accusation is that the Charismatic/ Pentecostal movement as a whole offers "Strange Fire" to God. This, according to MacArthur will warrant the judgment of God. It's the "Strange Fire Conference" because that is what he is attempting to speak out against.
Michael The Disciple
10-16-2013, 02:43 PM
Everything Macarthur teaches is fundamentally wrong. Its all "strange fire" when compared to the apostles doctrine.
Nitehawk013
10-17-2013, 04:26 AM
I wouldn't say everything he teaches is fundamentally wrong. The man can run theological rings around most of our apostolic "scholars".
Michael The Disciple
10-17-2013, 05:55 AM
I wouldn't say everything he teaches is fundamentally wrong. The man can run theological rings around most of our apostolic "scholars".
Where does he run rings around them? I would say even young Ministers who are Oneness know more of the truth than he does.
I say he teaches ALL the foundation doctrines wrong.
Michael The Disciple
10-17-2013, 06:45 AM
lol..Maybe he is just ingratiating himself on his peer group after being called out for heresy on the Eternal Son doctrine...
One thing he did have right. There was no "eternal son". But then he recanted truth and embraced the more "classic" Trinitarianism featuring the eternal son doctrine.
navygoat1998
10-17-2013, 07:25 AM
I wouldn't say everything he teaches is fundamentally wrong. The man can run theological rings around most of our apostolic "scholars".
I don't think he could run circles around Gordon Fee. Gordon Fee is not Apostolic but is very Pentecostal.
http://www.charismamag.com/spirit/bible-study/11740-a-professor-with-spirit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Fee
Originalist
10-17-2013, 07:30 AM
Everything Macarthur teaches is fundamentally wrong. Its all "strange fire" when compared to the apostles doctrine.
Everything?
houston
10-17-2013, 07:57 AM
Maybe that is why I like Mac.
I'm listening now to the live stream of John Macarthur's "Strange Fire" conference. Michael Brown has been talking about this conference and the rediculous ideas being pushed for some time now.
John Macarthur is clearly a cesassionist. It seems he is taking the radical and bizarre behaviors of the most far fetched charismatic movements and pushing them onto the entire charismatic/Pentecostal movement.
http://www.tmstrangefire.org
a few days ago we had a thread about revalation and deception and how close they are to each other.....
imagine a preacher who actually decided to have a conference called "strange fire"
and he thinks that somehow is a "God Thing"
what is wrong with people, except they have been deluded by God himself?
Abiding Now
10-17-2013, 09:43 AM
Is this the same guy that taught at Because of the Times?
houston
10-17-2013, 09:44 AM
Is this the same guy that taught at Because of the Times?no
kclee4jc
10-17-2013, 12:05 PM
Is this the same guy that taught at Because of the Times?
i think that was John Maxwell?
he doesnt major on doctrine so much...more leadership
I'm not defending his presence on the platform of an Apostolic Church...just statin the facts.
MacArthur is a dontrinal authority for calvinists and cesassionists and several other heretics :-)
kclee4jc
10-17-2013, 12:07 PM
I was surprised to see RC Sproul teaching at this conference. I guess it shouldnt suprise me that he is a cesassionist as well.
I have read some of his articles on eschatology.
There will not be a single cesassionist in heaven. NOT ONE
navygoat1998
10-17-2013, 12:59 PM
There will not be a single cesassionist in heaven. NOT ONE
Thus sayeth the word of Ferd!!!!! :spit
kclee4jc
10-17-2013, 01:35 PM
There will not be a single cesassionist in heaven. NOT ONE
agreed. How can one be born of the Spirit if all works of the Spirit have ceased.
n david
10-17-2013, 02:12 PM
Anyone have a MacArthur Study Bible?
Michael The Disciple
10-17-2013, 02:19 PM
Everything?
As far as I understand the New Testament Faith he teaches everything that I consider foundational falsely. Im convinced that even a well trained believer in the Oneness faith has more accurate knowledge of the truth than he does.
Michael The Disciple
10-17-2013, 03:16 PM
I'm listening now to the live stream of John Macarthur's "Strange Fire" conference. Michael Brown has been talking about this conference and the rediculous ideas being pushed for some time now.
John Macarthur is clearly a cesassionist. It seems he is taking the radical and bizarre behaviors of the most far fetched charismatic movements and pushing them onto the entire charismatic/Pentecostal movement.
http://www.tmstrangefire.org
Now from what I have hears Michael Brown is a good holiness preacher.
Abiding Now
10-17-2013, 07:28 PM
Is this the same guy that taught at Because of the Times?
no
i think that was John Maxwell?
he doesnt major on doctrine so much...more leadership
I'm not defending his presence on the platform of an Apostolic Church...just statin the facts.
MacArthur is a dontrinal authority for calvinists and cesassionists and several other heretics :-)
Thanks.
What is a "cesassionist"?
RandyWayne
10-17-2013, 07:29 PM
Thanks.
What is a "cesassionist"?
Apparently something you don't want to be.
Abiding Now
10-17-2013, 07:41 PM
Apparently something you don't want to be.
I was just wondering if it had anything to do with 1861, the Confederacy or the Honorable Robert E. Lee.
Praxeas
10-17-2013, 07:45 PM
Thanks.
What is a "cesassionist"?
Someone that believes the gifts all ceased when the Apostles all died out and the canon was completed
Abiding Now
10-17-2013, 07:52 PM
Someone that believes the gifts all ceased when the Apostles all died out and the canon was completed
Oh WOW! Now that is a sad, doctrine. No real hope, No healing, No miracles, No answered prayers, No gifted men or ministries. Sad indeed.
houston
10-17-2013, 08:05 PM
Oh WOW! Now that is a sad, doctrine. No real hope, No healing, No miracles, No answered prayers, No gifted men or ministries. Sad indeed.Jesus is our hope. Why wouldn't their prayers be answered?
RandyWayne
10-17-2013, 09:02 PM
I was just wondering if it had anything to do with 1861, the Confederacy or the Honorable Robert E. Lee.
"I reckon that I due declare that you MAY be right. I reckon."
http://civilwardailygazette.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/3stooges.png
Praxeas
10-17-2013, 11:09 PM
Jesus is our hope. Why wouldn't their prayers be answered?
"Jesus is our hope" is a very simplistic answer. Yes Jesus is our hope but he Entrusted delivery of that hope to men. He gave us gifts to edify one another
renee819
10-18-2013, 02:44 AM
"Jesus is our hope" is a very simplistic answer. Yes Jesus is our hope but he Entrusted delivery of that hope to men. He gave us gifts to edify one another
AMEN!!!!
Esaias
10-18-2013, 07:24 AM
So did fire come out from the pulpit and consume anybody?
Thus sayeth the word of Ferd!!!!! :spit
Nope. thats bible. guys like this are sending people to hell every single day.
kclee4jc
10-18-2013, 08:04 AM
Thus sayeth the word of Ferd!!!!! :spit
I've heard Ferd say many good words.
Good words are heard when they're said by Ferd.
If you havent heard the words of Ferd...why...you're just a nerd!
oh boy..
RandyWayne
10-18-2013, 11:12 AM
I LIKE hearing words from Ferd. They make me happy. It is a good thing!
http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/picture.php?albumid=10&pictureid=1040
n david
10-18-2013, 11:16 AM
Blog post about MacArthur's opening keynote at the Strange Fire Conference.
Source Link (http://www.challies.com/liveblogging/strange-fire-conference-john-macarthurs-opening-address)
The charismatic movement continually dishonors God in its false forms of worship. It dishonors the Father and Son, but most specifically, the Holy Spirit. Many things are attributed to the Holy Spirit that actually dishonor him. In many places in the charismatic movement they are attributing to the Holy Spirit works that have actually been generated by Satan. Again and again MacArthur stressed the great danger for those who worship God flippantly. It is a tragic and agonizing irony that those who claim to be most devoted to the Holy Spirit are following patterns that blaspheme his name.
He paused to state that he is not discrediting everyone in the movement. He knows there are charismatics who desire to worship God in a true way. Yet the movement itself has brought nothing that enriches true worship. It has made no contribution to biblical clarity, biblical interpretation or sound doctrine. The church had all of these things long before the charismatic movement happened.
People have been saved in charismatic churches, but nothing coming from that movement has been the reason they were saved. Nothing within the movement has strengthened the gospel or preserved truth and sound doctrine. It has only produced distortion, confusion and error.
n david
10-18-2013, 11:21 AM
MacArthur then contrasted Reformed theology with the charismatic movement and said that Reformed theology is not a haven for false teachers. It is not where false teachers reside or where greedy deceivers and liars end up. You won’t go to an association of Reformed churches and find false miracles, visions, prophecies, anointings and other supposed miraculous manifestations of the Spirit. Once experience, emotion and intuition become the definition of what is true, all hell breaks loose.
MacArthur showed what Scripture says about the work of the Holy Spirit and compared that to some of the more bizarre manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the charismatic movement.
He went to Hebrews 10 and the warning there about trampling the Son of God. Over the past couple of decades there have been organizations dedicated to defending the gospel of Jesus Christ. We have also defended the Father against the attacks of Open Theism. But this passage also promises punishment for those who insult the Spirit of grace. We know there will be a hotter hell for those who spurn Christ, but the same punishment is there for those who insult the Holy Spirit. This means we should be terrified to insult the Holy Spirit and vigorous in defending him.
MacArthur concluded by saying we can see in Christ a picture of the perfect work of the Holy Spirit, for the Spirit has committed to do in us what he did in Christ. The Spirit was the constant companion of Jesus; Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, matured by the Spirit, anointed by the Spirit at his baptism, sustained by the Spirit in his temptation, empowered by the Spirit for ministry, filled with the Spirit so he walked in perfect obedience while displaying the Spirit’s fruit, perfected by obedience wrought in the Spirit’s power, raised by the power of the Spirit, and even in his post-resurrection ministry was in the power of the Spirit. The Spirit is to us as he was to Christ. If you want to know how he works in us, look at Jesus. Ultimately, the work of the Holy Spirit is to take corrupted image bearers and to restore in them the likeness of Jesus Christ.
He ended with this challenge: “I will start believing that the truth prevails in the charismatic movement when I see the leaders looking more like Jesus Christ and I see that they really are partakers of the divine nature.”
.
houston
10-18-2013, 11:52 AM
Mac also spoke out against Mark Driscoll.
Esaias
10-18-2013, 12:01 PM
MacArthur then contrasted Reformed theology with the charismatic movement and said that Reformed theology is not a haven for false teachers. It is not where false teachers reside or where greedy deceivers and liars end up.
uh... Didn't Bob Jones University dump MacArthur because of his heresy concerning the Blood?
rofl
houston
10-18-2013, 12:02 PM
Someone is speaking about Driscoll right now.. He is reformed but is not a cessationist.
Esaias
10-18-2013, 12:06 PM
Oh wait, apparently he's guilty of ANOTHER heresy...
http://5ptsalt.com/2011/04/26/john-macarthurs-other-gospel/
An Assault on Sola Fide
MacArthur doesn’t stop there. It gets far worse. In a sermon on Zechariah 12:1-14, he states this concerning the Jews:
While their spiritual eyes are up and they’re thinking about God and how He has delivered them, they’re going to see God incarnate, Jesus, coming. They’re going to look on Him….they recognize that the very one who came back as their deliverer, was the same one they killed and they pierced when He came the first time. That’s why they mourn. And now that’s the anguish of true repentance, beloved.
He goes on:
And then Israel is going to receive salvation, look at 13:1, “In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.” God’s going to wash the nation from its sin.
First, they’re going to cry “My Lord and my God,” when they see Jesus. They’re going to realize it was God they pierced. And then God’s going to turn the fountain loose and wash them and pour out His Spirit.
What ever happened to Sola Fide?
Here MacArthur has not only promised opportunity for repentance after Christ appears, but he teaches that, at least for the Jews, salvation is no longer sola fide, by faith alone, but for the Jews, it is in faith by sight. Brethren, this contradicts all teaching of Scripture. This man’s dispensationalism forces him into a twisted, unbiblical exegesis that promises hope at a time when there is none any longer.
John MacArthur may desire to appear calvinistic, but his teaching in eschatology is clearly from the bosom of John Nelson Darby where it originated. In fact, reformed theology has always, historically opposed MacArthur’s dispensational teaching. Far from teaching the doctrines of grace and proclaiming the urgency of repentance today while there is yet time, John MacArthur is clearly proclaiming another gospel – for the Jew – which truly is not a gospel at all, but a lie endangering souls of men, deceiving the Church body at large and robbing the Church of Jesus Christ of the comforts of God’s faithfulness in fulfilling His prophetic Word in Christ Jesus.
Esaias
10-18-2013, 12:09 PM
Oh wait... yet ANOTHER claim that MacArthur is a heretic, this time from the Baptist side of the aisle...
http://lighthousebaptistchapel.com/tag/john-macarthur-heresy/
Next to exposing Santa Claus there is probably no more dangerous person to expose than John MacArthur. Loved by the world and especially by those who hold the murderer John Calvin as the greatest bible teacher ever, Johnny Mac as he is affectionately called, claims to be a lover of truth while wresting the scriptures that prove his doctrines false. He has many defenders from the Calvinist (whether they admit they are or know what one is is irrelevant) which all seek to promote each other while viciously attacking those who would dare to speak the truth in love hoping that some will see and come out from his subtil web of deceit. He masterfully uses tautological statements weaved with some good teaching, appearing as a humble, preacher of God’s word.
If one does not have the blood of the Lamb as the bible defines it or admittedly has no biblical point of salvation he by definition is not a Christian. Is it any wonder then that he preaches the false gospel of Calvinism? His many followers betrays the broad path that he is on and leads others on, while condemning sin he then promotes it with his subtil doublespeak.
Did you know John MacArthur taught that the “washing” of blood is a mistake in the Bible? That washing doesn’t mean washing? That the physical blood of Christ doesn’t save you but only Jesus’ dying? Did you know that he doesn’t know a time where he was ever born again but just knows he was? That he says on the one side of his mouth that God does not tolerate sin and will allow none into heaven, then on the other side of his mouth says there is no sin a Christian can commit and be prevented from going to heaven? If you think that is the gospel, you have bought a lie and are in error and in need of conversion. James 5:19-20
Please listen closely to the quotes of John MacArthur, the idol of so many, and stop making excuses for these men who teach false doctrines and mislead untold millions to hell by their good words and fair speeches. Learn how to discern biblically, and warn others so they may to escape those who promise liberty but disdain the blood and have no testimony of salvation.
Esaias
10-18-2013, 12:11 PM
Oops, looks like MacArthur is NOT 'reformed' like he claims he is - http://kimriddlebarger.squarespace.com/the-latest-post/2007/3/13/why-john-macarthur-is-not-reformed.html
The second point of contention is MacArthur's questionable attempt to co-opt "Calvinism" from amillenniarians and claim it for the dispensationalists. This is seen in MacArthur's remarkable claim that amillennialism is inherently "Arminian."
As I thought about drafting a response to this claim, it occured to me that it has already been done. In 1993, Richard Muller--who was my Ph.D. dissertation advisor and acknowledged by all as the leading authority on Reformed scholasticism and Calvin (Click here: Amazon.com: The Unaccommodated Calvin: Studies in the Foundation of a Theological Tradition (Oxford Studies in His)--published a short essay entitled, "How Many Points?"
In this essay, Muller demonstrates why people like MacArthur are not Reformed. MacArthur may hold to the "five points", but Muller shows why MacArthur is not "Reformed" nor a "Calvinist" in any meaningful or historical sense of those terms.
Before you read Muller's essay, please remember that the issue he's tackling is not whether those outside the Reformed churches are truly Christians (they are, if they are trusting in Christ). Muller is not saying that they have nothing good to contribute to the cause of Christ, nor any other such thing.
The specific issue Muller tackles is "who is Reformed?" And John MacArthur is not.
Esaias
10-18-2013, 12:13 PM
Oops, once again -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwsVW8vz10A
Esaias
10-18-2013, 12:14 PM
So in other words, in regards to MacArthur's claims to be rooting out 'heresy', all I can say is... yawn.
Esaias
10-18-2013, 12:34 PM
Lots of info here, too much to reprint:
http://thewatchmanwakes.wordpress.com/
So in other words, in regards to MacArthur's claims to be rooting out 'heresy', all I can say is... yawn.
yawn is the wrong word.
The man needs to fall on his face before God and beg forgiveness. He needs to recieve the Holy Ghost and be slain in the spirit.
then we can talk about baptism.
otherwise he is going to face the God who said "if you harm my children, better a millstone be tied around your neck and be cast into the sea!"
navygoat1998
10-18-2013, 01:33 PM
I've heard Ferd say many good words.
Good words are heard when they're said by Ferd.
If you havent heard the words of Ferd...why...you're just a nerd!
oh boy..
Ferd, Ferd he's our man if he can't do it nobody can. :amen
RandyWayne
10-18-2013, 02:16 PM
Ferd, Ferd he's our man if he can't do it nobody can. :amen
<drum roll>
"Budweiser Presents: Real American Heros!
Today, we salute YOU Mr Ferd!
Where ever there is something obvious that needs saying, we know YOU'LL be the one to SAY it!
Sure, anyone can point out a preacher bashing thread, but FERD makes makes you listen!
Singer: Oooohhhh, listen to him
So lets crack open an ice cold bottle of budlight, because I READ "a winner!".
UPCI, St Louis MO"
Michael The Disciple
10-18-2013, 02:27 PM
And yet he is just one out of millions of Evangelical type teachers. The Evangelical (Protestant) Movement is the greatest association of cults within Christendom.
After you listen to them a while you realize their two main messages.
1. Christ is not the only God.
2. Sin is ok.
Sounds a lot like what the Holy Spirit warned about.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude 4
houston
10-18-2013, 03:31 PM
And yet he is just one out of millions of Evangelical type teachers. The Evangelical (Protestant) Movement is the greatest association of cults within Christendom. After you listen to them a while you realize their two main messages. 1. Christ is not the only God. 2. Sin is ok. Sounds a lot like what the Holy Spirit warned about. 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude 4I don't know of any evangelical preachers that teach that sin is ok.
Abiding Now
10-18-2013, 03:34 PM
Oops, once again -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwsVW8vz10A
Thanks for some good info on a false teacher.
Michael The Disciple
10-18-2013, 05:09 PM
I don't know of any evangelical preachers that teach that sin is ok.
I talk to them every week. They almost to a man say everyone sins every day.
RandyWayne
10-18-2013, 05:20 PM
I talk to them every week. They almost to a man say everyone sins every day.
Well, in that regards they ARE right. The reason being that no one is perfect, other than Mary Poppins, and of course Jesus.
Michael The Disciple
10-18-2013, 06:09 PM
Well, in that regards they ARE right. The reason being that no one is perfect, other than Mary Poppins, and of course Jesus.
THEY are right? Are you kidding?
I think Apostolic doctrine is right. What did the Apostles teach?
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Rom. 6:1-2
So if we sin every day pray tell how is that not CONTINUING IN SIN?
If we sin every day how is that not LIVING IN SIN?
How can we be DEAD TO SIN if we cannot stop sinning?
Amanah
10-19-2013, 12:24 AM
. . . if gluttony, worry, foolish jesting, lack of faith, and lust are sins, it's not inconceivable that we fall short at times
Praxeas
10-19-2013, 12:50 AM
THEY are right? Are you kidding?
I think Apostolic doctrine is right. What did the Apostles teach?
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Rom. 6:1-2
So if we sin every day pray tell how is that not CONTINUING IN SIN?
If we sin every day how is that not LIVING IN SIN?
How can we be DEAD TO SIN if we cannot stop sinning?
What if you sin once a week? Is that continuing in sin? Once a month?
Praxeas
10-19-2013, 12:53 AM
Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.'
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Michael The Disciple
10-19-2013, 06:15 AM
Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.'
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
So are you insinuating the sin of lust cannot be overcome?
People today have lowered Christs commands and his will so LOW they think the new creation man cannot overcome sin.
Evangelical false doctrine has become so accepted among Pentecostals they have forgotten the standard Jesus himself set for seeing him.
Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Matt. 5:8
My friends do we not know what a pure heart means? Did Christ have a pure heart?
If so understand that we are called to be just like him!
The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master. Luke 6:40
You see? There is no standard except for Christ.
Saints with a pure heart will see Jesus and enter Heaven. Anyone without a pure heart will be cast into Hell.
Jesus gives us no other options.
seekerman
10-19-2013, 06:35 AM
Is MacArthur both a Calvinist AND a preterist? One of the speakers at the conference is R.C. Sproul who is both.
Actually, I don't care what MacArthur believes, I just wanted to post something.
:chat
renee819
10-19-2013, 07:48 AM
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
THEY are right? Are you kidding?
I think Apostolic doctrine is right. What did the Apostles teach?
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Rom. 6:1-2
So if we sin every day pray tell how is that not CONTINUING IN SIN?
If we sin every day how is that not LIVING IN SIN?
How can we be DEAD TO SIN if we cannot stop sinning?
Praxaes wrote
What if you sin once a week? Is that continuing in sin? Once a month?
Mat 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.'
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
I don't believe it is how often, it is the condition of the heart.
I believe David called some sins, “presumptuous sins.”
Christianity has been taught, through slogans, “We're not perfect” (And we certainly are not) “We're just human” “You sin a little every day.” And a lot of this comes from, OSAS and you're sins are covered “past, present and future.”
If you sin, and you know that you sinning, but, "So what? we're just human." or God will forgive me. I believe that is presumptuous sins.
Some sins are committed thru ignorance. Actually all sin is ignorant, when we compare what we have received, and the danger of losing or becoming hardened to sin, so that we no longer see our sins, and being lost.
For instance, in my 20's, I didn't realize that I was coveting money. Then after a few days of fasting, God showed me how wrong my thinking was. Did I learn all at once? No, but little by little.
I looked into, “The Power of Positive Thinking,” and the “Prosperity Message,” Oh, I wanted to get into that, but realized from the beginning, it was a message from hell.
It is not a matter of making a list and checking to see if we are on the right page. If we do not condition our heart, to live a righteous and holy life, we won't.
I believe that “peer pressure” is one of our greatest problems.
For instance, Suppose I'm by myself and I see a nice looking man. I acknowledge that fact and go on to think about other things. But, suppose I start fantasizing. That is lust and a sin. And not to be taken lightly.
But suppose I'm in a group of Pentecostal ladies, and they start fantasizing. (I don't remember being in that group) But someone should call a halt to it. “Look this is not right!”
Suppose I'm with a group of sinner ladies, and the conversation turns that way? (I probably have been in that situation—don't exactly remember. I think men are more prone to this, than women.) Would I stop it? Probably not. They are sinners and can think anything that comes to their mind. I would probably try to change the subject or if possible walk away from them. I don't enjoy being with sinners. Their talk is not my talk and my talk would not be theirs. I'm not interested in the latest movies or their stars or the soaps. I used to be interested in the News, but many ladies are not.
But lust and covetousness, are not the only sins. What about 'idle talk' “we will give an account for every idle word.”
I believe it is where your heart is. If you want to live a clean, holy life, God gives you the wisdom, moral strength and ability to do so. And if and when, you mess up. You repent.
Michael The Disciple
10-19-2013, 02:01 PM
Is MacArthur both a Calvinist AND a preterist? One of the speakers at the conference is R.C. Sproul who is both.
Actually, I don't care what MacArthur believes, I just wanted to post something.
:chat
As far as I know he is pre trib?
Esaias
10-20-2013, 08:38 AM
Is MacArthur both a Calvinist AND a preterist? One of the speakers at the conference is R.C. Sproul who is both.
Actually, I don't care what MacArthur believes, I just wanted to post something.
:chat
He's a dispensationalist, and I believe he's a pre-trib rapturist.
houston
10-20-2013, 09:11 AM
Is MacArthur both a Calvinist AND a preterist? One of the speakers at the conference is R.C. Sproul who is both. Actually, I don't care what MacArthur believes, I just wanted to post something. :chatcalvinist (amen) and a dispensationalist (pray for him)
RandyWayne
10-20-2013, 10:36 AM
It has been so many years since I heard MacArthur on the radio that I would not recognize his voice if I heard it. (I didn't play any links that people may have posted here to refresh my memory.)
houston
10-20-2013, 10:56 AM
It has been so many years since I heard MacArthur on the radio that I would not recognize his voice if I heard it. (I didn't play any links that people may have posted here to refresh my memory.)I recommend Matt Chandler and Steve Furtick.
Steve Epley
10-21-2013, 08:09 AM
Who cares what he says? Not me. Just another lying false prophet.
endtimer
10-21-2013, 08:11 AM
Who cares what he says? Not me. Just another lying false prophet.
yep. nothing new really.
Aquila
10-21-2013, 08:31 AM
I wouldn't say everything he teaches is fundamentally wrong. The man can run theological rings around most of our apostolic "scholars".
In my opinion, a seven year old with the Holy Ghost is more anointed by God than MacArthur. It's not about intelligence or philosophical understanding... it's about knowing God through Jesus Christ in the power of the Holy Ghost.
MacArthur knows his systematic "Reformed" theology better than most Pentecostal people do. Thus, he appears to run circles around them. And it is admitted, Pentecostals don't have a solid systematic theology with regards to Pentecostal doctrine. Most are only schooled in the opinion of their pastors supplemented by personal study and experience.
However, I've talked with plenty of "Reformed" preachers and run circles around them with a systematic approach to Pentecostal doctrine. For reference, I'll list here my systematic framework...
1. Election (God's choice of people to be saved in accordance to foreknowledge)
2. Propitiation (Christ's satisfying the Law and God's wrath against the sins of the Elect through His shed blood)
3. Atonement (Christ's work of covering the sins of the Elect through His shed blood)
4. The Gospel call (Receiving the message of the gospel through the Spirit's Prevenient Grace)
5. Conversion (faith, repentance, water baptism, Spirit baptism)
6. Justification (sinless legal standing before God)
7. Regeneration (being born again/one spirit with the Lord)
8. Adoption (membership in God's family/oneness with God via the Spirit)
9. Sanctification (growing in Christlikeness)
10. Perseverance (remaining under the blood as a Christian through continual confession and repentance)
11. Death (going to be with the Lord)
12. Glorification (receiving a resurrection body in sinless perfection)
The above is essentially how I explain salvation through a systematic approach. In my system of theology there are also many sub categories. For example under point 4 (The Gospel Call) I emphasize that there is both an "outer calling" (the preached Word) and an "inner calling" (the drawing of the Holy Ghost). Both must be taking place for a believer to be born again. Sometimes men hear the outer calling of the Gospel and want to respond with their natural mind without the inner calling of the Spirit. These are those who "repent", and might even be baptized, but never receive the Holy Ghost or receive the Holy Ghost much later. God isn't drawing them at that time. They can only come to the Son as the Father leads them. Other sub topics can be found throughout. This was just an example.
I keep the primary doctrinal points to 12 for simplicity and memorization. 12 is also a cool "biblical" number to use (12 Tribes, 12 Apostles, etc.). ;)
I hope it helps.
Nitehawk013
10-21-2013, 08:49 AM
Meh. I'm just becoming an old fuddy duddy at 35 apparently because I am far more interested in hearing good systematic expository teaching on the scriptures (such as Macarthur does) than I am in "anointed" Pentecostal "preaching". I liek to be educated, not just have my emotions pumped up by a guy who went to Bible college just long enough to learn when to say a hot button phrase and make sheep stand and shout.
kclee4jc
10-21-2013, 08:54 AM
Who cares what he says? Not me. Just another lying false prophet.
this is true
seekerman
10-21-2013, 09:41 AM
Who cares what he says? Not me. Just another lying false prophet.
You think those folks you fellowship with who let their babies die for lack of medical attention are false prophets too?
Oh, I forgot to add. These same people, when faced with a life or death situation, choose to go to the doctor themselves while the graves of their grandchildren are in the cemetery next to the church.
Tell us about these kinds of people whydoncha? :thumbsup :santathumb
berkeley
10-21-2013, 09:47 AM
Meh. I'm just becoming an old fuddy duddy at 35 apparently because I am far more interested in hearing good systematic expository teaching on the scriptures (such as Macarthur does) than I am in "anointed" Pentecostal "preaching". I liek to be educated, not just have my emotions pumped up by a guy who went to Bible college just long enough to learn when to say a hot button phrase and make sheep stand and shout.me too... but I have always preferred expository teaching...
Michael The Disciple
10-21-2013, 02:05 PM
Meh. I'm just becoming an old fuddy duddy at 35 apparently because I am far more interested in hearing good systematic expository teaching on the scriptures (such as Macarthur does) than I am in "anointed" Pentecostal "preaching". I liek to be educated, not just have my emotions pumped up by a guy who went to Bible college just long enough to learn when to say a hot button phrase and make sheep stand and shout.
I far prefer topical or verse by verse teaching also. Its just that Macarthur even tho he does this brings no foundation truth to the table. Its all error.
I only am aware of one UPC Pastor who teaches the full truth so its not merely that he is "Reformed".
Truth is just hard to find.
Originalist
10-21-2013, 02:12 PM
Oops, once again -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwsVW8vz10A
The person who made this video is as doctrinally illiterate on the blood as MacArthur is on spiritual gifts.
Here is how John McArthur rebuts these charges......
I Believe in the Precious Blood
By John MacArthur
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing.
Hebrews 10:28-29
Dear Beloved Friend,
The blood of the Lord Jesus Christ is holy and precious. The shedding of His blood in death was the price of atonement for our sins. As He literally poured out His blood in a sacrificial act, He sealed forever the New Covenant and purchased our redemption.
Those of you familiar with my teaching know that I have always believed and affirmed those things. For the past two or three years, however, I have been under attack by a small but vocal group of men who are eager to discredit my ministry. They have charged me with denying the blood of Christ and have called me a heretic in several nationally distributed publications.
My first response was to write many of those men privately, believing their attack on me grew from a misunderstanding. None of them had spoken to me personally before attacking me in print. Only a handful have yet replied to my letters. Still, I expected the public controversy to die away. My teaching is certainly no secret, and I knew that those who listen regularly to our radio broadcast would know I am a not teaching heresy.
Nevertheless, for nearly three years a small core of zealots have kept the issue swirling around every ministry I'm involved with. One man has literally made a career of going to any church in the country that will pay his way and giving a series of messages on the error of "MacArthurism." Recently, a couple of key radio stations dropped "Grace to You," not because of anything we taught on the broadcast, but because they did not want to continue to deal with the controversy being generated by rumormongers.
Over the past couple of years we have received thousands of letters from all over the country, ranging from those supporting our biblical view, to those who are confused, to some who blindly echo the accusation that we are trampling underfoot the blood of Christ. For the sake of all of them, and so that you can better understand what I have taught about the blood of Christ, let's look at three truths that I and all other genuine believers affirm about the blood of Jesus Christ.
1. Jesus' Blood Is the Basis of Redemption
Peter wrote, "Ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [like] silver and gold . . .but with the precious blood of Christ" (1 Pet. 1:18-19, KJV). Scripture speaks of the blood of Christ nearly three times as often as it mentions the cross, and five times more often than it refers to the death of Christ. The word blood, therefore, is the chief term the New Testament uses to refer to the atonement.
Peter wrote that election is "unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 1:2). The "sprinkling of the blood" was what sealed the New Covenant (cf. Heb. 9:1-18). "Without shedding of blood is no remission" (v. 22). If Christ had not literally shed His blood in sacrifice for our sins, we could not have been saved.
This is one reason crucifixion was the means God ordained by which Christ should die: it was the most vivid, visible display of life being poured out as the price for sins.
Bloodshed was likewise God's design for nearly all Old Testament sacrifices. They were bled to death rather than clubbed, strangled, suffocated, or burnt. God designed that sacrificial death was to occur with blood loss, because "the life of the flesh is in the blood" (Lev. 17:11).
2. Jesus Shed His Literal Blood When He Died
The literal blood of Christ was violently shed at the crucifixion. Those who deny this truth or try to spiritualize the death of Christ are guilty of corrupting the gospel message. Jesus Christ bled and died in the fullest literal sense, and when He rose from the dead, he was literally resurrected. To deny the absolute reality of those truths is to nullify them (cf. 1 Cor. 15:14-17).
The meaning of the crucifixion, however, is not fully expressed in the bleeding alone. There was nothing supernatural in Jesus' blood that sanctified those it touched. Those who flogged Him might have been spattered with blood. Yet that literal application of Jesus' blood did nothing to purge their sins.
Had our Lord bled without dying, redemption would not have been accomplished. If the atonement had been stopped before the full wages of sin had been satisfied, Jesus' bloodshed would have been to no avail.
It is important to note also that though Christ shed His blood, Scripture does not say He bled to death; it teaches rather that He voluntarily yielded up His spirit (John 10:18). Yet even that physical death could not have bought redemption apart from His spiritual death, whereby He was separated from the Father (cf. Mat. 27:46).
3. Not Every Reference to Jesus' Blood Is Literal
Clearly, though Christ shed His literal blood, many references to the blood are not intended to be taken in the literal sense. A strictly literal interpretation cannot, for example, explain such passages as John 6:53-54: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
It would be equally hard to explain how physical blood is meant in Matthew 27:25 ("His blood be on us, and on our children"); Acts 5:28 ("[You] intend to bring this man's blood upon us"); 18:6 ("Your blood be upon your own heads"); 20:26 ("I am innocent of the blood of all men"); and 1 Corinthians 10:16 ("The cup of blessing . . .is it not the communion of the blood of Christ?," KJV).
Clearly the word blood is often used to mean more than the literal red fluid. Thus it is that when Scripture speaks of the blood of Christ, it usually means much more than just the red and white corpuscles—it encompasses His death, the sacrifice for our sins, and all that is involved in the atonement.
Trying to make literal every reference to Christ's blood can lead to serious error. The Catholic doctrine known as transubstantiation, for example, teaches that communion wine is miraculously changed into the actual blood of Christ, and that those who partake of the elements in the mass literally fulfill the words of Jesus in John 6:54: "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
Those who have attacked me seem to be espousing the same kind of mystical view of the blood that led the Catholic Church to embrace transubstantiation. They claim that the blood of Christ was never truly human. They insist on literalizing every New Testament reference to Jesus' blood. They teach that the physical blood of Christ was somehow preserved after the crucifixion and carried to heaven, where it is now literally applied to the soul of each Christian at salvation.
We are not saved by some mystical heavenly application of Jesus' literal blood. Nothing in Scripture indicates that the literal blood of Christ is preserved in heaven and applied to individual believers. When Scripture says we're redeemed by the blood (1 Pet. 1:18-19), it is not speaking of a bowl of blood in heaven. It means we're saved by Christ's sacrificial death.
In the same way, when Paul said he gloried in the cross (Gal. 6:14), he did not mean the literal wooden beams; he was speaking of all the elements of redeeming truth. Just as the cross is an expression that includes all of Christ's atoning work, so is the blood. It is not the actual liquid that cleanses us from our sins, but the work of redemption Christ accomplished in pouring it out.
That is not heresy; it is basic biblical truth.
If you've been troubled by these issues and you'd like to study them more in depth, please write to us. We'll send you free of charge a cassette tape containing virtually everything I've ever said about the blood of Christ. We've compiled this tape from nearly twenty years of messages given at Grace Community Church. We also have some written material that explains our position, which we will send you again at no charge.
I hope you'll be like the noble Bereans and study God's Word for yourself to see if these things are true. Please don't be influenced by careless charges of heresy.
Also, please pray for me. These attacks have been relentless, and I confess that at times it is discouraging. Yet I know one cannot be on the front lines without constant battles, and it is a privilege to suffer wrong for the Lord's sake (cf. 1 Pet. 4:19).
Thank you for your prayers and support. Please pray that God will protect us as we seek to minister His truth with boldness.
Yours in His Service,
John MacArthur Pastor-Teacher
Jason B
10-21-2013, 10:16 PM
Meh. I'm just becoming an old fuddy duddy at 35 apparently because I am far more interested in hearing good systematic expository teaching on the scriptures (such as Macarthur does) than I am in "anointed" Pentecostal "preaching". I liek to be educated, not just have my emotions pumped up by a guy who went to Bible college just long enough to learn when to say a hot button phrase and make sheep stand and shout.
Agreed.
I don't agree with MacArthur on everything (and doubt anyone on this board does) but to me there's more I find agreeable than not. Not quite sure what authority some folks think they have to say some of the things that have been said. Some of you need to quit whining about how the other side of the church aisle talks about OPs when you are just as mean spirited if not more so. Oh sure your defense is 1)they started it or 2)we have the right because were truly Gods anointed and chosen. Well I say if you really have the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ himself dwelling in you, guiding you, then why not actually treat others with a little love and grace? If OPs actually are the only people with the "truth" why are we so much more (or at the very least equally so) combatitive as other people who (in our view) do NOT have the same Spirit we (as OPs) have?
It seems to me 1 of 2 things is evident:
1)OPs and trinitarians have the same Spirit and thus their behavior mirrors each other. A genuine love for Christ but sometimes an overzealous attempt to cut off anyone who is not a part of us. (A common problem even the apostles battled this).
2) none of us have the holy spirit so we continually argue and bicker like those we claim are unredeemed.
Some would say
3)OPs have the true Spirit of God and the truth and everyone else is lost. To those I say the fruit of the movement and the lives of many leaders in the movement (current or former) betray such a claim and renders it ridiculous. Unity and love are signs of the Spirit.....is there any more division, jealousy, and dislike in any other denomination in Christendom than in the OP movement? And that fracturing has occurred in a mere 100 years exactly. As far a church history goes the movement is in its infancy and has only existed for 5% of the church age. Still we set ourselves up as the authority and judges of all things Christian. Not very convincing.
Farfel
10-21-2013, 11:07 PM
Agreed. I don't agree with MacArthur on some things (and doubt anyone on this board does) but to me there's more I find agreeable than not. Not quite sure what authority some folks think they have to say some of the things that have been said. Some of you need to quit whining about how the other side of the church aisle talks about OPs when you are just as mean spirited if not more so. Oh sure your defense is 1)they started it or 2)we have the right because were truly Gods anointed and chosen. Well I say if you really have the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ himself dwelling in you, guiding you, then why not actually treat others with a little love and grace? If OPs actually are the only people with the "truth" why are we so much more (or at the very least equally so) combatitive as other people who (in our view) do NOT have the same Spirit we (as OPs) have? It seems to me 1 of 2 things is evident: 1)OPs and trinitarians have the same Spirit and thus their behavior mirrors each other. A genuine love for Christ but sometimes an overzealous attempt to cut anyone whose not a part of us. (A common problem even the apostles battled this). 2) none of us have the holy spirit so we continually argue and bicker like those we claim are unredeemed. Some would say 3)OPs have the true Spirit of God and the truth and everyone else is lost. To those I say the fruit of the movement and the lives of many leaders in the movement (current or former) betray such a claim and renders it ridiculous. Unity and live are signs of the Spirit.....is there any more division, jealousy, and dislike in any other denomination in Christendom than in the OP movement? And that fracturing has occurred in a mere 100 years exactly. As far a church history goes the movement is in its infancy and has only existed for 5% of the church age. Still we set ourselves up as the authority and judges of all things Christian. Not very convincing.
Wow. Well said.
Nitehawk013
10-22-2013, 04:38 AM
The person who made this video is as doctrinally illiterate on the blood as MacArthur is on spiritual gifts.
Here is how John McArthur rebuts these charges......
Dr. Macarthur nails it again.
Michael The Disciple
10-22-2013, 06:08 AM
I still hold Macarthur teaches no truth that is foundational. It's not about being "mean spirited". Its about contending for the faith once delivered to the saints.
As I have also said very few Oneness Pentecostals have foundation truth except for Oneness and Acts 2:38.
Farfel
10-22-2013, 06:53 AM
I still hold Macarthur teaches no truth that is foundational. It's not about being "mean spirited". Its about contending for the faith once delivered to the saints. As I have also said very few Oneness Pentecostals have foundation truth except for Oneness and Acts 2:38.
You mean … there's more to the bible than just Acts 2:38?! 😱
Esaias
10-22-2013, 08:31 AM
...is there any more division, jealousy, and dislike in any other denomination in Christendom than in the OP movement?
Your view of 'church divisions' is rather myopic. Have you spent any time perusing the discussions which take place among Eastern Orthodox people? Including their leadership?
If you did you would realise the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox groups are the KINGS of schism.
The russian Orthodox for example have at least about 10 different schisms going on RIGHT NOW. It got so bad in the early 20th century they even had MULTIPLE schismatic groups claiming there was no more church of God in the earth! They have had patriarchs and antipatriarchs, popes and antipopes if you will, galore. And I am just talking in the last century, forget their whole history.
The Reformed bunch aren't much better. You do realise that practically EVERY 'reformed' denomination is a schism, because they believe the other Reformed denominations are in some kind of error?
How about the Adventist movement? Literally SCORES of groups came out of that.
How about Herbert Armostrong's bunch? Just in the last 30 years alone that one single movement divided up into about 50 different entire denominations, arguing over various minor and major doctrinal points.
The Messianic movement is even more fractured with everything from full blown Talmudic Judaism (with a touch of Yehsua) to full blown charismatic evangelicalism (with a touch of sacred name-ism).
How about the Baptists? American baptists alone have more denominational structures, all created because of SCHISMS, than probably any other American religious movement with the possible exception of the Sacred Name bunch.
And finally, who has the history of MASS MURDER? Yeah, I said it - MASS MURDER.
The Catholics, Reformed, Orthodox groups have a rather detailed history of MURDERING entire communities of Christians who believed differently than they did.
I sure don't know any apostolics who believe that trinitarians should all be rounded up and PUT TO DEATH BY THE STATE, or that anyone who practices infant baptism should be likewise BURNT AT THE STAKE.
I don't know of any apostolic pentecostal group that believes, desires, or would EVER promote the mass roundup of ALL OTHER DENOMINATIONS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.
'Same spirit'? I think not.
Sure we disagree. We disagree on some fundamental issues. So did folks in the early 1st century church. You can read about those disagreements in the pages of your Bible. The earliest apostolic church faced schism and heresy. Nothing new.
This ecumenical attitude you desire is contrary to all Christian history, including the pages of the New Testament. It was and is nothing less than a plot by the Jesuit counter-reformation to 'bring all christians back to Rome'. The Vatican still enjoins the counter-reformation. The 'ecumenical movement' where all Christians just 'love each other and unite in friendship and get along' is a creation of forces who desire to EXTINGUISH biblical christianity.
The very existence of the schismatic 'Old Catholics' and 'traditionalist catholics' is due to Rome's attempt to create an ecumenical uniting of all christians.
The humanists and socialists picked up the ball with the 'evangelical movement' and the liberal 'ecumenical movement'.
To say this is comparable to the disputes among apostolics is naive at best. To say apostolics must not stand for truth and point out error is hypocritical.
Where is your condemnation of MacArthur's condemnation of YOU? According to him you are a HERETIC. And according to the Reformed tradition he claims to be a part of, you deserve to be put to death by the state.
Esaias
10-22-2013, 08:34 AM
Dr. Macarthur nails it again.
My entire point is that MacArthur claims the reformed movement knows no heretics, yet Reformed people are claiming HE IS A HERETIC.
He has addressed the charges made against him in reference to his teaching on the blood. Others have responded to his rebuttals and found them wanting.
All within his little bubble of 'non schismatic Reformed religion' lol.
Esaias
10-22-2013, 08:47 AM
http://johnmacarthurexposed.blogspot.com/
Allow me, by way of introduction, to say how I became interested in the goings on at GCC. My interest in GCC began in March 2005 when a local pastor invited me to accompany him to the GCC Pastor’s Conference being held that same month. Wanting to get information about the conference, I went to the GCC website where I noticed that Dr. Albert Mohler was to be a keynote speaker. I’d never heard of Dr. Mohler. When curiosity pressed and an internet search ended, I had discovered information about Dr. Mohler that was not in accord with his Christian profession.
I had discovered that Dr. Mohler was a Founding Fellow of the “think tank” of a UN-NGO. I had discovered that a UN-NGO is a non-governmental organization that is listed with the UN and that serves the UN and its one-world agenda. And therefore, I concluded that it must necessarily follow, that Dr. Mohler, being a Founding Fellow of this UN-NGO’s “think tank” which serves the UN and its agenda, must also serve the UN agenda. (It has since been confirmed to me by a colleague of Dr. Mohler’s that all the Fellows of the “think tank” of this UN-NGO are dedicated to the principles of the charter of the UN).
...
I proceeded to write a letter to each of the members of the GCC elder board. I warned them all of Dr. Mohler’s associations. I received a reply from elder, Phil Johnson, dated March 23, 2005. Regarding Dr. Mohler’s associations, Mr. Johnson wrote, “We may not agree with all his associations, but nothing in Scripture demands that we separate from a true brother in Christ just because we may disagree with him on where he draws the circle of his own fellowship.”
...
Being dissatisfied with the reply I’d received from the GCC elder board, I then decided to make phone calls to several other GCC pastors in order to inform them of Dr. Mohler’s UN connection. Surely, they would all be concerned. I told them all that Dr. Mohler was a Fellow of a UN-NGO. What was their response? The pastors all angrily denied this easily verifiable fact.
I then decided to write letters to about ten more GCC pastors. I expressed to them my concern that Dr. Mohler was a Fellow of a UN-NGO. I received a reply from one pastor, Rick Mclean, responding for all, who, putting himself in the position of God, told me that the information I’d given them regarding Dr. Mohler’s associations “was of no eternal consequence.” This pastor also told me to never contact them again regarding this matter.
...
Believing the GCC authority’s behavior to be deceitful, and knowing they didn’t want Dr. Mohler’s UN affiliation exposed, I decided to do just that at their March 2006 Pastor’s Conference. With Dr. Mohler again invited to be a keynote speaker, I stood outside their church and handed out flyers to the arriving pastors.
The flyer was titled “Al Mohler and the United Nations.” The flyer basically contained 2 facts: Al Mohler was a Founding Fellow of the Research Institute (think tank) of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission (ERLC) and that the ERLC was a UN-NGO.
How did the GCC officials respond to these flyers being handed out on the public sidewalk outside their church? A GCC pastor, Eric Bancroft, with the head of security in tow, approached me and angrily told me that my flyer contained “all lies”; he then warned me that if I was to set foot on GCC property, I’d be arrested. When I left GCC that evening, some GCC officials followed me and with the head of security present, they photographed my car and wrote down my license plate number.
...
In the summer of 2006, I wrote a letter intended for the Christian remnant at GCC in which I warned them of this dangerous church growth infiltration. It was titled “A Wake Up Call to the Saints at Grace Community Church.” While standing on the sidewalk across the street, I handed out copies to the congregants as they left the church. I handed out this letter of warning for three consecutive Sundays.
On the second Sunday, as I handed out the “Wake-up Call,” the police were called. A black and white unit stopped and an officer approached me and told me that they had received a call claiming that I was harassing the congregation. I was handing out my letter to Christians as they left the church. I never harassed anyone and no one had complained to me.
Why were the police called? On that same day, in what could be construed as another act of intimidation, a GCC official approached me and told me that the GCC authorities were considering a lawsuit against me.
More at the link. MacArthur is not who you people think he is.
Nitehawk013
10-22-2013, 08:50 AM
I don't care for his off the cuff speech or anyone really tossing "heretic" charges around.
Regardless, I've listened to and read many of Macarthur's teachings on various subjects and typically found them to be superior to anything I've heard in Pentecostal pulpits. I would say the same for men like DA Carson, Sproul, and a few others.
Esaias
10-22-2013, 08:53 AM
I don't care for his off the cuff speech or anyone really tossing "heretic" charges around.
Regardless, I've listened to and read many of Macarthur's teachings on various subjects and typically found them to be superior to anything I've heard in Pentecostal pulpits. I would say the same for men like DA Carson, Sproul, and a few others.
Then why are you Pentecostal? Why aren't you Reformed?
Nitehawk013
10-22-2013, 09:01 AM
Recognizing their theological depth in most areas of systematic theology doesn't mean I recognize them as authorities on theology proper or basic Acts soteriology. Mush like on this forum I find most of your knowledge on many issues to be great and many of your arguments very persuasive. Yet on some others...not quite.
Steve Epley
10-22-2013, 10:05 AM
Another lying false prophet who cares what he says? Not me.
seekerman
10-22-2013, 10:32 AM
Another lying false prophet who cares what he says? Not me.
Apparently you do.
What you don't care about is the preaching of your compatriots which results in the deaths of men, women and children....and infants. As long as the women don't cut their hair and the tithes are paid to the preacher in that group, then what's the deaths of a few men, women, children and infants?
Tell us about the false prophets in your little group, whydoncha? :thumbsup:christmasjig
Esaias
10-22-2013, 10:44 AM
Recognizing their theological depth in most areas of systematic theology doesn't mean I recognize them as authorities on theology proper or basic Acts soteriology.
My point is that MacArthur and Sproul teach from a paradigm that is rooted in a theology that you, as a Pentecostal, reject.
If the seed is bad, how can the fruit be good?
Mush like on this forum I find most of your knowledge on many issues to be great and many of your arguments very persuasive. Yet on some others...not quite.
You find my arguments not quite persuasive on some issues? HOW DARE YOU!!!!
:smack:foottap:girlytantrum:throwrock
lol
Apparently you do.
What you don't care about is the preaching of your compatriots which results in the deaths of men, women and children....and infants. As long as the women don't cut their hair and the tithes are paid to the preacher in that group, then what's the deaths of a few men, women, children and infants?
Tell us about the false prophets in your little group, whydoncha? :thumbsup:christmasjig
Why are you calling Elder Epley a liar, and what exactly makes you think is ok to accuse the elder of being partial to murder?
speaking of false prophets. YOU are telling flat out lies and being utterly dispicable. no thumbs up here. your just nasty.
seekerman
10-22-2013, 12:40 PM
Why are you calling Elder Epley a liar, and what exactly makes you think is ok to accuse the elder of being partial to murder?
speaking of false prophets. YOU are telling flat out lies and being utterly dispicable. no thumbs up here. your just nasty.
Where have I called the 'reverend' epley a liar?
Any preacher or group that preaches against doctors, either overtly or covertly, will have blood on their hands when such evil teaching results in the death of men, women, children and infants. I know some of the folks the 'reverend' fellowships with. I know what's in the graveyards by their churches.
The 'reverend' epley is quick to point out false prophets, I wonder why the 'reverend' doesn't point out those who are involved in such things as false prophets? Could it be that the 'reverend' epley is blind and uncaring about the innocent and chooses to overlook the evil that is within the folks he fellowships with?
:thumbsup:gift
Where have I called the 'reverend' epley a liar?
Any preacher or group that preaches against doctors, either overtly or covertly, will have blood on their hands when such evil teaching results in the death of men, women, children and infants. I know some of the folks the 'reverend' fellowships with. I know what's in the graveyards by their churches.
The 'reverend' epley is quick to point out false prophets, I wonder why the 'reverend' doesn't point out those who are involved in such things as false prophets? Could it be that the 'reverend' epley is blind and uncaring about the innocent and chooses to overlook the evil that is within the folks he fellowships with?
:thumbsup:gift
whatever. You called the Elder a liar and now you are backing down.
you are acting like a jerk to a man who has given his life for the gospel. Elder Eply and I dont agree on a lot of things. That doesnt mean I am going to be disrespectful.
your attitude toward him is disgusting. I am sure you are incapable of being ashamed of yourself.
seekerman
10-22-2013, 01:14 PM
whatever. You called the Elder a liar and now you are backing down.
you are acting like a jerk to a man who has given his life for the gospel. Elder Eply and I dont agree on a lot of things. That doesnt mean I am going to be disrespectful.
your attitude toward him is disgusting. I am sure you are incapable of being ashamed of yourself.
I ask again, where have I called the 'reverend' epley a liar? Point it out. Post it.
I'm disgusted by the 'reverends' Pharisaical behavior. And of course we aren't going to condemn the false prophets in the 'reverend' epley's little group are we?
Jason B
10-22-2013, 01:14 PM
Then why are you Pentecostal? Why aren't you Reformed?
There is barely any meat in OP teaching or books, barely any commentaries, and what material is available tends to be about oneness, baptism, tongues, holiness standards, or "power/anointing". Very little meat on those bones and then someone gets ridiculed for reading trinitarian writers and actually getting fed something. There's not much to choose from on pentecostalpublishing.com
Jason B
10-22-2013, 01:22 PM
And of course we aren't going to condemn the false prophets in the 'reverend' epley's little group are we?
True. One is granted tremendous flexibility as long as they stay under the umbrella of OP.
Jason B
10-22-2013, 01:26 PM
Your view of 'church divisions' is rather myopic. Have you spent any time perusing the discussions which take place among Eastern Orthodox people? Including their leadership?
If you did you would realise the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox groups are the KINGS of schism.
The russian Orthodox for example have at least about 10 different schisms going on RIGHT NOW. It got so bad in the early 20th century they even had MULTIPLE schismatic groups claiming there was no more church of God in the earth! They have had patriarchs and antipatriarchs, popes and antipopes if you will, galore. And I am just talking in the last century, forget their whole history.
The Reformed bunch aren't much better. You do realise that practically EVERY 'reformed' denomination is a schism, because they believe the other Reformed denominations are in some kind of error?
How about the Adventist movement? Literally SCORES of groups came out of that.
How about Herbert Armostrong's bunch? Just in the last 30 years alone that one single movement divided up into about 50 different entire denominations, arguing over various minor and major doctrinal points.
The Messianic movement is even more fractured with everything from full blown Talmudic Judaism (with a touch of Yehsua) to full blown charismatic evangelicalism (with a touch of sacred name-ism).
How about the Baptists? American baptists alone have more denominational structures, all created because of SCHISMS, than probably any other American religious movement with the possible exception of the Sacred Name bunch.
And finally, who has the history of MASS MURDER? Yeah, I said it - MASS MURDER.
The Catholics, Reformed, Orthodox groups have a rather detailed history of MURDERING entire communities of Christians who believed differently than they did.
I sure don't know any apostolics who believe that trinitarians should all be rounded up and PUT TO DEATH BY THE STATE, or that anyone who practices infant baptism should be likewise BURNT AT THE STAKE.
I don't know of any apostolic pentecostal group that believes, desires, or would EVER promote the mass roundup of ALL OTHER DENOMINATIONS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.
'Same spirit'? I think not.
Sure we disagree. We disagree on some fundamental issues. So did folks in the early 1st century church. You can read about those disagreements in the pages of your Bible. The earliest apostolic church faced schism and heresy. Nothing new.
This ecumenical attitude you desire is contrary to all Christian history, including the pages of the New Testament. It was and is nothing less than a plot by the Jesuit counter-reformation to 'bring all christians back to Rome'. The Vatican still enjoins the counter-reformation. The 'ecumenical movement' where all Christians just 'love each other and unite in friendship and get along' is a creation of forces who desire to EXTINGUISH biblical christianity.
The very existence of the schismatic 'Old Catholics' and 'traditionalist catholics' is due to Rome's attempt to create an ecumenical uniting of all christians.
The humanists and socialists picked up the ball with the 'evangelical movement' and the liberal 'ecumenical movement'.
To say this is comparable to the disputes among apostolics is naive at best. To say apostolics must not stand for truth and point out error is hypocritical.
Where is your condemnation of MacArthur's condemnation of YOU? According to him you are a HERETIC. And according to the Reformed tradition he claims to be a part of, you deserve to be put to death by the state.
I was reading this on my cell phone do I'll have to reread it later b/c its too long. But based on the first 2 paragraphs I'd say you missed my point.
I'm not saying that other groups don't have problems with division, what I'm saying is Apostolics who claimed to have THE TRUTH act the same way. And considering how they attack their own who dare to question the sacred cows can there be any doubt that OPs would have been just as barbaric in the the muddle ages as the catholics and some protestants?
Esaias
10-22-2013, 02:41 PM
And considering how they attack their own who dare to question the sacred cows can there be any doubt that OPs would have been just as barbaric in the the muddle ages as the catholics and some protestants?
Yes, there can be a serious doubt that oneness pentecostals would act just as barbarically (sp?) as the catholics and protestants in the middle ages, because most OP theology is baptistic, which maintains a separation of church and state. Therefore, theologically, OPs are generally against the state punishing heresy.
Steve Epley
10-22-2013, 02:51 PM
I call them false prophets because they deny the truth about Jesus being the Almighty God and the new birth of water and Spirit. Very simple.
As concerning those who carry faith to a point way beyond myself it is before God they will answer. I know preachers and their wives who have died without doctor's care that was their choice. They promoted people to have faith in God for healing without medical aid some were healed and some died.
I do not promote that myself in fact take medicine and go to the doctor but I am not going to fault those who choose to trust God for their healing.(by the which the majority of every branch of the Pentecostal movement did at one time.) I have never personally buried any child I pastored because the parent refused to take them to the doctor. However I have preached funerals of infants who died under the doctors care. Your impugning of those who choose to believe God rather than doctors seems to be mockery to me. I do not teach that level of faith but if a man have faith let him have it between him and God alone.
n david
10-22-2013, 02:54 PM
I call them false prophets because they deny the truth about Jesus being the Almighty God and the new birth of water and Spirit. Very simple.
As concerning those who carry faith to a point way beyond myself it is before God they will answer. I know preachers and their wives who have died without doctor's care that was their choice. They promoted people to have faith in God for healing without medical aid some were healed and some died.
I do not promote that myself in fact take medicine and go to the doctor but I am not going to fault those who choose to trust God for their healing.(by the which the majority of every branch of the Pentecostal movement did at one time.) I have never personally buried any child I pastored because the parent refused to take them to the doctor. However I have preached funerals of infants who died under the doctors care. Your impugning of those who choose to believe God rather than doctors seems to be mockery to me. I do not teach that level of faith but if a man have faith let him have it between him and God alone.
:thumbsup :highfive
Michael The Disciple
10-22-2013, 03:15 PM
I call them false prophets because they deny the truth about Jesus being the Almighty God and the new birth of water and Spirit. Very simple.
As concerning those who carry faith to a point way beyond myself it is before God they will answer. I know preachers and their wives who have died without doctor's care that was their choice. They promoted people to have faith in God for healing without medical aid some were healed and some died.
I do not promote that myself in fact take medicine and go to the doctor but I am not going to fault those who choose to trust God for their healing.(by the which the majority of every branch of the Pentecostal movement did at one time.) I have never personally buried any child I pastored because the parent refused to take them to the doctor. However I have preached funerals of infants who died under the doctors care. Your impugning of those who choose to believe God rather than doctors seems to be mockery to me. I do not teach that level of faith but if a man have faith let him have it between him and God alone.
For probably the first time......I can actually say I agree with every word Steve Eply said.
NotforSale
10-22-2013, 03:18 PM
This ecumenical attitude you desire is contrary to all Christian history, including the pages of the New Testament. It was and is nothing less than a plot by the Jesuit counter-reformation to 'bring all christians back to Rome'. The Vatican still enjoins the counter-reformation. The 'ecumenical movement' where all Christians just 'love each other and unite in friendship and get along' is a creation of forces who desire to EXTINGUISH biblical christianity.
The MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION: So, what is "Biblical" Christianity?
seekerman
10-22-2013, 03:20 PM
I call them false prophets because they deny the truth about Jesus being the Almighty God and the new birth of water and Spirit. Very simple.
As concerning those who carry faith to a point way beyond myself it is before God they will answer. I know preachers and their wives who have died without doctor's care that was their choice. They promoted people to have faith in God for healing without medical aid some were healed and some died.
You don't call this 'promotion' of people to watch their infants and children die a form of false prophecy? You believe them which have done this and who do this to be men of God?
You're not addressing the issue, 'reverend'. You're running.
I do not promote that myself in fact take medicine and go to the doctor but I am not going to fault those who choose to trust God for their healing.
Right, of course you're not going to fault them for their evil teaching which results in infants and children dying, loss of husband, wife, father and mother. I know you're not, that's one of the points. You're bold and very very quick to proclaim the final judgement on those who aren't of the little sect you're a part of, but you're gutless to condemn that evil which results in death of men, women, children and infants from the godless message many in your little sect preach.
(by the which the majority of every branch of the Pentecostal movement did at one time.)
Surely doesn't make it right though, does it 'reverend'?
I have never personally buried any child I pastored because the parent refused to take them to the doctor.
You fellowship and embrace those who have in the past, or currently, do that though, don't you? Again, you know the churches you fellowship with and you know whats in the graveyards next to the church. Your boldness against sin doesn't extend to those self-labeled, so-called 'apostolics' in your fellowship. Again, you're gutless when it comes to pointing out the evil which results in the deaths of men, women, children and infants. As long as the religious standards are followed, as long as the money is flowing in, everything else is ok , isn't it? Well, everything but those who aren't part of the little sect that you fellowship.
However I have preached funerals of infants who died under the doctors care. Your impugning of those who choose to believe God rather than doctors seems to be mockery to me. I do not teach that level of faith but if a man have faith let him have it between him and God alone.
It's not between him and God alone though, 'reverend'. Do you understand infants and children dying in many of the churches in your little sect because of the decisions of honest hearted men and women who are deceived by the message many 'ministers' in your sect preach? Does that actually affect you or are you so blind and religious that the deaths of the little ones because of evil preaching doesn't bother you?
You're quick to proclaim judgment on those who aren't 'apostolic' but your silence is deafening when it comes to the teachings which cause death for infants, children, mothers and fathers.
seekerman
10-22-2013, 03:21 PM
For probably the first time......I can actually say I agree with every word Steve Eply said.
Really? You're ok with infants and children dying because of the religious beliefs of their parents?
Steve Epley
10-22-2013, 03:26 PM
You don't call this 'promotion' of people to watch their infants and children die a form of false prophecy? You believe them which have done this and who do this to be men of God?
You're not addressing the issue, 'reverend'. You're running.
Right, of course you're not going to fault them for their evil teaching which results in infants and children dying, loss of husband, wife, father and mother. I know you're not, that's one of the points. You're bold and very very quick to proclaim the final judgement on those who aren't of the little sect you're a part of, but you're gutless to condemn that evil which results in death of men, women, children and infants from the godless message many in your little sect preach.
Surely doesn't make it right though, does it 'reverend'?
You fellowship and embrace those who have in the past, or currently, do that though, don't you? Again, you know the churches you fellowship with and you know whats in the graveyards next to the church. Your boldness against sin doesn't extend to those self-labeled, so-called 'apostolics' in your fellowship. Again, you're gutless when it comes to pointing out the evil which results in the deaths of men, women, children and infants. As long as the religious standards are followed, as long as the money is flowing in, everything else is ok , isn't it? Well, everything but those who aren't part of the little sect that you fellowship.
It's not between him and God alone though, 'reverend'. Do you understand infants and children dying in many of the churches in your little sect because of the decisions of honest hearted men and women who are deceived by the message many 'ministers' in your sect preach? Does that actually affect you or are you so blind and religious that the deaths of the little ones because of evil preaching doesn't bother you?
You're quick to proclaim judgment on those who aren't 'apostolic' but your silence is deafening when it comes to the teachings which cause death for infants, children, mothers and fathers.
Sadly Seekerman I have buried my share of infants-husbands-wives and all were under the doctor's care. You are placing yourself in the place of God you have no idea whether those who died would have lived under doctor's care neither do I. I don't teach that those who do will answer for that. I will say this the majority of folks who practiced that has seen an abundance of healings and miracles of which most of Pentecost has not seen.
seekerman
10-22-2013, 03:42 PM
Sadly Seekerman I have buried my share of infants-husbands-wives and all were under the doctor's care. You are placing yourself in the place of God you have no idea whether those who died would have lived under doctor's care neither do I. I don't teach that those who do will answer for that. I will say this the majority of folks who practiced that has seen an abundance of healings and miracles of which most of Pentecost has not seen.
And sadly 'reverend', you're continuing your evasion. As I said, you're bold when it comes to those outside your little sect but gutless when it comes to those within your little sect.
For you not to raise your voice against the teachings which result in the death of infants and children is a very plain revealing of your religiosity. To not publicly call out the teachings of those in your little sect which results in the deaths of mothers and fathers, leaving children without a mother or father, a wife without a husband, a husband without a wife, is, again, gutless and Pharisaical on your part.
You accept the deaths of infants and children. Those things are ok with you. You worry about if someone has a Christmas tree and you readily and boldly preach against such trivial things, but when it come to the life of infants and children, you turn a blind eye. You sacrifice the innocent in order to gain the acceptance of those false prophets in your little sect.
Of course you're not going to repent for your embracing of those who preach the evil message which results in the deaths of death of the innocent. You're far too comfortable in your self-righteous Pharisaical romanist system.
Steve Epley
10-22-2013, 03:47 PM
And sadly 'reverend', you're continuing your evasion. As I said, you're bold when it comes to those outside your little sect but gutless when it comes to those within your little sect.
For you not to raise your voice against the teachings which result in the death of infants and children is a very plain revealing of your religiosity. To not publicly call out the teachings of those in your little sect which results in the deaths of mothers and fathers, leaving children without a mother or father, a wife without a husband, a husband without a wife, is, again, gutless and Pharisaical on your part.
You accept the deaths of infants and children. Those things are ok with you. You worry about if someone has a Christmas tree and you readily and boldly preach against such trivial things, but when it come to the life of infants and children, you turn a blind eye. You sacrifice the innocent in order to gain the acceptance of those false prophets in your little sect.
Of course you're not going to repent for your embracing of those who preach the evil message which results in the deaths of death of the innocent. You're far too comfortable in your self-righteous Pharisaical romanist system.
Seekerman I realize you do not like me but I can live with that you will have to get in line. Hope you have a nice eternity.:thumbsup
seekerman
10-22-2013, 03:51 PM
Seekerman I realize you do not like me but I can live with that you will have to get in line. Hope you have a nice eternity.:thumbsup
And I hope you'll actually grow a backbone and point out the false prophets in your little sect which preach the evil which results in the deaths of infants and children, mothers and fathers, husbands and wives. Honestly, I don't think you'll ever grow one though.
Wanna talk about the evil of Christmans trees? Now there's a subject which really excites you, isn't it? The deaths of the innocent? Meh, not so much. :santathumb:ucuttree
Esaias
10-22-2013, 05:36 PM
And I hope you'll actually grow a backbone and point out the false prophets in your little sect which preach the evil which results in the deaths of infants and children, mothers and fathers, husbands and wives. Honestly, I don't think you'll ever grow one though.
Wanna talk about the evil of Christmans trees? Now there's a subject which really excites you, isn't it? The deaths of the innocent? Meh, not so much. :santathumb:ucuttree
Hey, he raises a valid point regarding whether people would be saved by the doctor.
Do doctors heal or cure people? Are you talking about 'simple' stuff that can be treated with an almost surefire guarantee of recovery?
The number of deaths caused by 'doctor mistake' and malfeasance, plus the number of people who die simply because the doctor did what they could but could not do enough, is pretty high. (Google is your friend on that.)
I know some who believe that if God chooses to heal someone no sickness can stop it. And if God decides it's time for someone to 'come home' no doctor can stop it either. So, they reason, might as well just leave it all up to God.
Is that really wrong?
Not picking sides on this issue, just trying to understand.
Also, it seems to me you personally know someone or lost someone who died by refusing medical care or having medical care refused for them for religious reasons. Is that true?
seekerman
10-22-2013, 06:37 PM
Hey, he raises a valid point regarding whether people would be saved by the doctor.
That has nothing to do with people choosing to withhold medical attention from their infants and children because of the messages from the pulpit.
Do doctors heal or cure people? Are you talking about 'simple' stuff that can be treated with an almost surefire guarantee of recovery?
I'm simply talking about the culture of no medical care for their infants and children, or themselves, because of the preaching of those in the sect which epley is part of. Is that evil preaching that message? I think it is, especially when infants or children die.
The number of deaths caused by 'doctor mistake' and malfeasance, plus the number of people who die simply because the doctor did what they could but could not do enough, is pretty high. (Google is your friend on that.)
It's not about fear of doctor mistakes, it's about the culture of allowing infants and children to suffer and die.
I know some who believe that if God chooses to heal someone no sickness can stop it. And if God decides it's time for someone to 'come home' no doctor can stop it either. So, they reason, might as well just leave it all up to God.
Is that really wrong?
Do you believe that God is pleased when individuals withhold medical attention from their infants and children, resulting in their suffering and sometimes death?
Not picking sides on this issue, just trying to understand.
Sure, it's good to get such practices out in the open.
Also, it seems to me you personally know someone or lost someone who died by refusing medical care or having medical care refused for them for religious reasons. Is that true?
I personally know people. I can take you to their graves. I used to be part of the culture of the 'apostolics' like epley.
Nitehawk013
10-23-2013, 04:22 AM
The way Seeker goes after the Elder you would think Elder had ran Seeker's mother over with a car at some point.
I think Seeker just has issues period and is fixated upon an insanely rare and fringe belief of an insanely few Apostolic ministers and somehow think Epley is wrong for not going out of his mind condemning them. I'd say Seeker just needs to get a life.
seekerman
10-23-2013, 04:37 AM
The way Seeker goes after the Elder you would think Elder had ran Seeker's mother over with a car at some point.
I think Seeker just has issues period and is fixated upon an insanely rare and fringe belief of an insanely few Apostolic ministers and somehow think Epley is wrong for not going out of his mind condemning them. I'd say Seeker just needs to get a life.
I'd say that anyone who doesn't openly condemn those that teach a doctrine which results in the tragic deaths of infants and children, mothers and fathers because of lack of medical care is lacking in their view of God.
Wait until the days leading up to Christmas and watch 'reverend' epley though. While he may not be upset, caring or bold in pointing out the evil message of some of those in his little sect, he'll surly rise up in boldness against Christmas trees.
I guess it's what one believes is important. How about you, what's your view on those who preach a doctrine which results in infants, children, mothers and fathers dying for lack of medical attention? You ok with that as is 'reverend' epley?
Nitehawk013
10-23-2013, 04:52 AM
I probably am in agreement with Elder Epley. I'm not going to waste time condemning and going nuts over what amounts to an extremem fringe element of CHristianity. It's not worth it. I have never once heard any man preach not to get medical attention when needed. I guess some probably still preach it, but I don't know where.
RandyWayne
10-23-2013, 07:57 AM
I probably am in agreement with Elder Epley. I'm not going to waste time condemning and going nuts over what amounts to an extremem fringe element of CHristianity. It's not worth it. I have never once heard any man preach not to get medical attention when needed. I guess some probably still preach it, but I don't know where.
I have and personally know the couple from Central WI who let their diabetic daughter die several years ago. But they are still a very fringe group that thinks like that.
Esaias
10-23-2013, 08:25 AM
That has nothing to do with people choosing to withhold medical attention from their infants and children because of the messages from the pulpit.
I'm simply talking about the culture of no medical care for their infants and children, or themselves, because of the preaching of those in the sect which epley is part of. Is that evil preaching that message? I think it is, especially when infants or children die.
It's not about fear of doctor mistakes, it's about the culture of allowing infants and children to suffer and die.
Do you believe that God is pleased when individuals withhold medical attention from their infants and children, resulting in their suffering and sometimes death?
See, this is what I am not understanding. you seem to be saying 'if only they had gone to the doctor they would not have died'. Is this true? We had to spend lots of money and time and effort to find another caregiver (doctor) for my father in law, who had a stroke several years ago. The doctor he had was utterly incompetent. Might as well have brought out the chickens and goat entrails. Then the second doctor turned out to be utterly not interested in actual health care. Had to find another one, who's actually a good one, who by the way refuses to take insurance.
My point is, 'going to the doctor' is oftentimes hardly better than going to see the local Santero priest.
Now, if a child is diabetic, diabetes can be treated (if caught early on). But by the same token... isn't our lives in God's hands to begin with? If it is time to go, no doctor in the world is going to prevent it.
Also, isn't there more to life than THIS life?
seekerman
10-23-2013, 08:39 AM
I probably am in agreement with Elder Epley. I'm not going to waste time condemning and going nuts over what amounts to an extremem fringe element of CHristianity. It's not worth it. I have never once heard any man preach not to get medical attention when needed. I guess some probably still preach it, but I don't know where.
You're ok, as is the 'reverend' epley, with those who teach doctrines which result in the death of infants, children, mothers and fathers. You have certain values you hold dear, other things such as infants and children dying isn't important enough to openly take a stand against.
Your, and the 'reverend' epley's silent acceptance of such evil is very troubling, to me at least.
seekerman
10-23-2013, 08:50 AM
See, this is what I am not understanding. you seem to be saying 'if only they had gone to the doctor they would not have died'. Is this true? We had to spend lots of money and time and effort to find another caregiver (doctor) for my father in law, who had a stroke several years ago. The doctor he had was utterly incompetent. Might as well have brought out the chickens and goat entrails. Then the second doctor turned out to be utterly not interested in actual health care. Had to find another one, who's actually a good one, who by the way refuses to take insurance.
My point is, 'going to the doctor' is oftentimes hardly better than going to see the local Santero priest.
Now, if a child is diabetic, diabetes can be treated (if caught early on). But by the same token... isn't our lives in God's hands to begin with? If it is time to go, no doctor in the world is going to prevent it.
Also, isn't there more to life than THIS life?
Are you suggesting that the practice of denying medial treatment to infants and children is the message of the gospel?
You seem to be using the bad doctor approach, but as I pointed out in my last post to you this isn't about good or bad doctors, this is about a view that is ingrained in some people from overly, or coverly, preaching that it's a sin to go to a doctor. These people make personal choices concerning them, and their children, which results in their death, all because they believe it's against the gospel to seek medical attention. Maybe you're in acceptance with such teachings, I'm not sure. I'm not. I believe such teachings to be evil.
This began when the 'reverend' epley, as is common with him, was quick to condemn someone as a false prophet who wasn't part of his little sect. The 'reverend' epley is strangely silent on those with which he fellowships who have suffering and death happen in their churches because of lack of medical attention. It's troubling when the innocent suffer and die because of the teaching of the false prophets in epley's sect, yet he's ok with this...as are others on the forum.
Silence reigns in condemnation of such practices. Even from you.
Troubling, very troubling.
seekerman
10-23-2013, 08:51 AM
I have and personally know the couple from Central WI who let their diabetic daughter die several years ago. But they are still a very fringe group that thinks like that.
The issue is, should one be silent when such events occur or should one be openly against such practices.
Esaias
10-23-2013, 09:19 AM
Are you suggesting that the practice of denying medial treatment to infants and children is the message of the gospel?
You seem to be using the bad doctor approach, but as I pointed out in my last post to you this isn't about good or bad doctors, this is about a view that is ingrained in some people from overly, or coverly, preaching that it's a sin to go to a doctor. These people make personal choices concerning them, and their children, which results in their death, all because they believe it's against the gospel to seek medical attention. Maybe you're in acceptance with such teachings, I'm not sure. I'm not. I believe such teachings to be evil.
This began when the 'reverend' epley, as is common with him, was quick to condemn someone as a false prophet who wasn't part of his little sect. The 'reverend' epley is strangely silent on those with which he fellowships who have suffering and death happen in their churches because of lack of medical attention. It's troubling when the innocent suffer and die because of the teaching of the false prophets in epley's sect, yet he's ok with this...as are others on the forum.
Silence reigns in condemnation of such practices. Even from you.
Troubling, very troubling.
I was a member of a church that taught people should definitely go to the doctor. And there were many people suffering there and several died.
Were their deaths the result of listening to teaching which said 'go to the doctor'? Any more or less than when you have people who suffer and die listening to teaching which says 'don't go the doctor'?
I have known MANY, M_A_N_Y people who have been SCREWED UP ROYALLY because they 'went to the doctor'. I have known PERSONALLY, people close to me, who were MESSED UP (permanently) because they 'went to the doctor'. And yes, it was BECAUSE they went to the doctor.
My personal belief is people should take charge of their own healthcare, learn what they can, and make what decisions they think is best.
I am not 'silent' concerning anything. I am, however, questioning this mindset that seems to suggest that doctors are a more certain cure for troubles than God. My personal experience, and that of everyone I have ever personally known, testifies otherwise.
kclee4jc
10-23-2013, 09:20 AM
The way Seeker goes after the Elder you would think Elder had ran Seeker's mother over with a car at some point.
I think Seeker just has issues period and is fixated upon an insanely rare and fringe belief of an insanely few Apostolic ministers and somehow think Epley is wrong for not going out of his mind condemning them. I'd say Seeker just needs to get a life.
That is because Elder Epley takes a strong stand for God's truth.
Seeker HATES God's truth.
Elder Epley is right...Seeker will have to stand in line.
kclee4jc
10-23-2013, 09:28 AM
This should stir something in your heart when you read it. It gives tremendous revelation concerning those who once knew truth and now oppose it and those who preach it.
II Peter 2
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
Nitehawk013
10-23-2013, 09:41 AM
I'm not sure what the point would be of openly criticizing the very few anti-medical treatment folks out there? What is the point of wasting time speaking out against a handful of nuts? Is it just to have a "record" of being against them? I think it is pretty obvious those here oppose that thinking. There is no reason to object when it is already know we object.
Seeker just wants to stir a pot, but it's an abandoned pot. No one cares.
NotforSale
10-23-2013, 10:52 AM
The MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION: So, what is "Biblical" Christianity?
This ecumenical attitude you desire is contrary to all Christian history, including the pages of the New Testament. It was and is nothing less than a plot by the Jesuit counter-reformation to 'bring all christians back to Rome'. The Vatican still enjoins the counter-reformation. The 'ecumenical movement' where all Christians just 'love each other and unite in friendship and get along' is a creation of forces who desire to EXTINGUISH biblical christianity.
THE MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION: So, what is Biblical Christianity?
:tumbleweed
Esaias
10-23-2013, 12:47 PM
THE MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION: So, what is Biblical Christianity?
:tumbleweed
You mean you do not know what biblical christianity is?
NotforSale
10-23-2013, 01:20 PM
You mean you do not know what biblical christianity is?
Honestly, no I don't. And after you explain your "Revelation", we'll prove that you don't either and that your Religion is just like all the other Faiths out there; an Idea that a select few follow, based upon Scriptures that support your Idea.
Fire away!
Esaias
10-23-2013, 01:26 PM
Honestly, no I don't. And after you explain your "Revelation", we'll prove that you don't either and that your Religion is just like all the other Faiths out there; an Idea that a select few follow, based upon Scriptures that support your Idea.
Fire away!
Ah, so then there is no such thing as 'biblical christianity'. In which case you have no need to worry, all is in doubt, eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we may die!
:bliss:yahoo:clap:rooting:cheer:woohoo:dancing:par ty:amen:shockamoo
Michael The Disciple
10-23-2013, 01:34 PM
I was a member of a church that taught people should definitely go to the doctor. And there were many people suffering there and several died.
Were their deaths the result of listening to teaching which said 'go to the doctor'? Any more or less than when you have people who suffer and die listening to teaching which says 'don't go the doctor'?
I have known MANY, M_A_N_Y people who have been SCREWED UP ROYALLY because they 'went to the doctor'. I have known PERSONALLY, people close to me, who were MESSED UP (permanently) because they 'went to the doctor'. And yes, it was BECAUSE they went to the doctor.
My personal belief is people should take charge of their own healthcare, learn what they can, and make what decisions they think is best.
I am not 'silent' concerning anything. I am, however, questioning this mindset that seems to suggest that doctors are a more certain cure for troubles than God. My personal experience, and that of everyone I have ever personally known, testifies otherwise.
:yourock
NotforSale
10-23-2013, 01:36 PM
Ah, so then there is no such thing as 'biblical christianity'. In which case you have no need to worry, all is in doubt, eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we may die!
What's wrong, fear keeping you from responding with an intelligent answer?
BTW, no doubt here because the truth prevails, again.
Esaias
10-23-2013, 02:04 PM
What's wrong, fear keeping you from responding with an intelligent answer?
BTW, no doubt here because the truth prevails, again.
Well, bless your little heart, you're a testy one today, ain't ya?
lol
NotforSale
10-23-2013, 02:14 PM
Well, bless your little heart, you're a testy one today, ain't ya?
lol
Just a little...lol
I'm not sure what the point would be of openly criticizing the very few anti-medical treatment folks out there? What is the point of wasting time speaking out against a handful of nuts? Is it just to have a "record" of being against them? I think it is pretty obvious those here oppose that thinking. There is no reason to object when it is already know we object.
Seeker just wants to stir a pot, but it's an abandoned pot. No one cares.
THe point is quite simple my friend.
Seekerman hate Elder Epley. it isnt much mroe than that.
He has demeaned the Elder repeatedly thru the years. He is ugly, unkind and downright disgusting.
if he could say that Elder Epley didnt like blue cars, he would try to use that as a reason to attack him.
It is personal.
seekerman
10-23-2013, 02:44 PM
I was a member of a church that taught people should definitely go to the doctor. And there were many people suffering there and several died.
Were their deaths the result of listening to teaching which said 'go to the doctor'? Any more or less than when you have people who suffer and die listening to teaching which says 'don't go the doctor'?
I have known MANY, M_A_N_Y people who have been SCREWED UP ROYALLY because they 'went to the doctor'. I have known PERSONALLY, people close to me, who were MESSED UP (permanently) because they 'went to the doctor'. And yes, it was BECAUSE they went to the doctor.
My personal belief is people should take charge of their own healthcare, learn what they can, and make what decisions they think is best.
I am not 'silent' concerning anything. I am, however, questioning this mindset that seems to suggest that doctors are a more certain cure for troubles than God. My personal experience, and that of everyone I have ever personally known, testifies otherwise.
And again, you're to make the issue about the competency of doctors, which again isn't the issue.
The issue is concerning the religious teaching by some which results in the innocent dying for lack of medical attention. As far as I can tell, you're for parents sitting by, watching their child slowly take it's last breath instead of seeking medical help and you believe this is pleasing to God for them to do this. This behavor is part of the fellowship of 'reverend' epley. You, as he, would never speak against such practices. You're silent on the issue....as is he and others who agree with the 'reverend'.
seekerman
10-23-2013, 02:46 PM
That is because Elder Epley takes a strong stand for God's truth.
Seeker HATES God's truth.
Elder Epley is right...Seeker will have to stand in line.
God's truth doesn't cause parents to sit by and watch their child die for lack of medical attention. Those in a Jim Jones type cult do those kind of things.
Esaias
10-23-2013, 02:49 PM
And again, you're to make the issue about the competency of doctors, which again isn't the issue.
So, the issue then is the competency of God? But not the competency of doctors? I guess that's because 'doctors are part of the REAL world, whereas God, well... that's just the imaginary world...' Right?
The issue is concerning the religious teaching by some which results in the innocent dying for lack of medical attention.
What about the religious teaching of some which results in the innocent dying because of medical attention?
As far as I can tell, you're for parents sitting by, watching their child slowly take it's last breath instead of seeking medical help and you believe this is pleasing to God for them to do this. This behavor is part of the fellowship of 'reverend' epley. You, as he, would never speak against such practices. You're silent on the issue....as is he and others who agree with the 'reverend'.
As far as I can tell, you're operating purely in the emotional realm and cannot even have a reasoned conversation with someone without resorting to ad hominem attacks.
Therefore, I leave you beat at the air on your own.
So, the issue then is the competency of God? But not the competency of doctors? I guess that's because 'doctors are part of the REAL world, whereas God, well... that's just the imaginary world...' Right?
What about the religious teaching of some which results in the innocent dying because of medical attention?
As far as I can tell, you're operating purely in the emotional realm and cannot even have a reasoned conversation with someone without resorting to ad hominem attacks.
Therefore, I leave you beat at the air on your own.
its really simple. the issue is hatred. Seekerman hates Elder Epley. its personal.
he would be posting nonsense if Elder Epley was talking about toppings for pizza.
seekerman would try to suggest the good Elder killed someone because he likes pepperoni. Because Seekerman hates and is bitter and small and feel all big and happy when being insulting and ugly.
seekerman
10-23-2013, 03:11 PM
I'm not sure what the point would be of openly criticizing the very few anti-medical treatment folks out there? What is the point of wasting time speaking out against a handful of nuts? Is it just to have a "record" of being against them? I think it is pretty obvious those here oppose that thinking. There is no reason to object when it is already know we object.
Seeker just wants to stir a pot, but it's an abandoned pot. No one cares.
Many here apparently endorse that thinking after reading the responses.
In your view, are those who preach against medical treatment, watching their children die, preaching the gospel? If not, what are they preaching and because it's a life or death doctrine, shouldn't it be exposed?
Those who care if children live or die care. Maybe not you, but there are those who actually care about those things.
seekerman
10-23-2013, 03:15 PM
So, the issue then is the competency of God? But not the competency of doctors? I guess that's because 'doctors are part of the REAL world, whereas God, well... that's just the imaginary world...' Right?
What about the religious teaching of some which results in the innocent dying because of medical attention?
As far as I can tell, you're operating purely in the emotional realm and cannot even have a reasoned conversation with someone without resorting to ad hominem attacks.
Therefore, I leave you beat at the air on your own.
And you'll walk away in silence, giving your approval to the evil of the teaching that if one goes to a doctor, they are displeasing God. You're condoning, maybe even embracing and promoting, parents sitting and watching their child die because they believe it's displeasing to God to seek medical attention for the child.
You and the 'reverend' epley seem to be unmoved emotionally by such behavior.
seekerman
10-23-2013, 03:17 PM
its really simple. the issue is hatred. Seekerman hates Elder Epley. its personal.
he would be posting nonsense if Elder Epley was talking about toppings for pizza.
seekerman would try to suggest the good Elder killed someone because he likes pepperoni. Because Seekerman hates and is bitter and small and feel all big and happy when being insulting and ugly.
It's simple, I hate the evil doctrine which 'reverend' epley, and apparently you, condone.
Watching children die for lack of medical attention is part of your religion apparently. If you have children, I pray that they'll leave your 'care' as soon as possible. If you don't have children, I pray you never have any.
Parents watching children die isn't "nonsense". Your Jim Jones cult like behavior isn't "nonsense" either.
Esaias
10-23-2013, 03:24 PM
And you'll walk away in silence, giving your approval to the evil of the teaching that if one goes to a doctor, they are displeasing God. You're condoning, maybe even embracing and promoting, parents sitting and watching their child die because they believe it's displeasing to God to seek medical attention for the child.
You and the 'reverend' epley seem to be unmoved emotionally by such behavior.
No, I am unmoved by your pathetic attempts to smear ME, all because I won't get in line to play the role of Seeker's Sycophant. I asked questions and you respond this way, thus I now understand you are an 'unreasonable man'.
Have fun.
seekerman
10-23-2013, 04:46 PM
No, I am unmoved by your pathetic attempts to smear ME, all because I won't get in line to play the role of Seeker's Sycophant. I asked questions and you respond this way, thus I now understand you are an 'unreasonable man'.
Have fun.
It's no fun watching folks embrace the theological stance which results in the parents sitting by while watching their infants and children slowly die.
Michael The Disciple
10-23-2013, 04:54 PM
I thought this thread was about Macarthur?
Esaias
10-23-2013, 05:02 PM
I thought this thread was about Macarthur?
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_QYd_pItgxVM/S14g2K5YisI/AAAAAAAAH4E/mUCJ8U5bBDE/s400/Funny_and_Incomplete_Train_Tracks_Rare_Photos_8.jp g
Farfel
10-23-2013, 05:11 PM
I thought this thread was about Macarthur?
4295
berkeley
10-23-2013, 05:12 PM
I thought this thread was about Macarthur?it's about Steve
seekerman
10-23-2013, 05:19 PM
I thought this thread was about Macarthur?
Well, yeah, there's guy folks can demonize.
Depends on what melts your butter, floats you boat, whatever milks your goat.
I thought it was about strange fire. There's little that's stranger than those beliefs which promote the idea of parents sitting by while watching their children die and believing it's of God to do that.
n david
10-23-2013, 05:20 PM
I asked questions and you respond this way, thus I now understand you are an 'unreasonable man'.
It took you this long to figure that out?
:lol
seekerman
10-23-2013, 05:32 PM
It took you this long to figure that out?
:lol
And apparently you're another to think it reasonable for parents to sit and watch their child die for lack of medical attention because they believe that's pleasing to God.
navygoat1998
10-23-2013, 05:33 PM
Whatever milks your goat.
Anybody seen Titus2woman :heeheehee
n david
10-23-2013, 05:50 PM
And apparently you're another to think it reasonable for parents to sit and watch their child die for lack of medical attention because they believe that's pleasing to God.
And in other news the Vatican is fielding a Cricket team to take on the Angelican Church Cricket team.
:nod
seekerman
10-23-2013, 06:45 PM
And in other news the Vatican is fielding a Cricket team to take on the Angelican Church Cricket team.
:nod
There's absolutely no compassion in you, is there?
seekerman
10-23-2013, 06:52 PM
http://www.agnostic-library.com/ma/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/i-am-the-lord-your-god-300x300.png
Abiding Now
10-23-2013, 08:57 PM
And again, you're to make the issue about the competency of doctors, which again isn't the issue.
The issue is concerning the religious teaching by some which results in the innocent dying for lack of medical attention. As far as I can tell, you're for parents sitting by, watching their child slowly take it's last breath instead of seeking medical help and you believe this is pleasing to God for them to do this. This behavor is part of the fellowship of 'reverend' epley. You, as he, would never speak against such practices. You're silent on the issue....as is he and others who agree with the 'reverend'.
WOW!
Could you name these teachers in Steve Epley's fellowship that teach this?
seekerman
10-23-2013, 08:59 PM
WOW!
Could you name these teachers in Steve Epley's fellowship that teach this?
Yes, but I'm not. As I've said over and over and over and over, I can take you to the graves.
Let's assume there are those who do this for discussion's sake though. Would they, in your opinion, be teaching a false and evil doctrine?
Abiding Now
10-23-2013, 09:08 PM
Yes, but I'm not. As I've said over and over and over and over, I can take you to the graves.
Let's assume there are those who do this for discussion's sake though. Would they, in your opinion, be teaching a false and evil doctrine?
Thanks for the response. OK, you choose to not name "the fellowship of 'reverend' epley" that teaches what you describe as false and evil doctrine. So, maybe you can tell me where the graves are located?
seekerman
10-23-2013, 09:15 PM
Thanks for the response. OK, you choose to not name "the fellowship of 'reverend' epley" that teaches what you describe as false and evil doctrine. So, maybe you can tell me where the graves are located?
Nope. Epley knows of many of the incidents as well as I. Maybe he will tell you. I'm sure there are some that I'm not aware of myself.
Are you going to give a response to my last post? Would they be teaching an evil and false doctrine?
seekerman
10-23-2013, 09:18 PM
Oh, and it's not just graves. It's also the suffering that the infants and children go through for lack of medical attention.
Abiding Now
10-23-2013, 09:21 PM
Nope. Epley knows of many of the incidents as well as I. Maybe he will tell you. I'm sure there are some that I'm not aware of myself.
Are you going to give a response to my last post? Would they be teaching an evil and false doctrine?
But, Steve Epley didn't make the accusations about men in his fellowship teaching this doctrine. You did and so I was just asking you to clarify with names or places. As far as my answering your question. Naw, I'm still waiting on you to answer my questions.
seekerman
10-23-2013, 09:27 PM
But, Steve Epley didn't make the accusations about men in his fellowship teaching this doctrine. You did and so I was just asking you to clarify with names or places. As far as my answering your question. Naw, I'm still waiting on you to answer my questions.
I was simply pointing out epley's penchant for making observations about the Christianity and final destination of folks who aren't of his religious persuasion. When asked about those with which he fellowships concerning the suffering and death of infants, children, husbands and wives due to certain doctrines being taught in those 'apostolic' circles, he hasn't, you've not, nor has anyone so far condemned such doctrine.
He, as you, simply won't reveal if such doctrines are false and evil.
Why not?
Abiding Now
10-23-2013, 09:36 PM
I was simply pointing out epley's penchant for making observations about the Christianity and final destination of folks who aren't of his religious persuasion. When asked about those with which he fellowships concerning the suffering and death of infants, children, husbands and wives due to certain doctrines being taught in those 'apostolic' circles, he hasn't, you've not, nor has anyone so far condemned such doctrine.
He, as you, simply won't reveal if such doctrines are false and evil.
Why not?
Ok before I say it's right or wrong and for the sake of understanding where you are coming from, would the so called "doctrine" of do not go to doctors, but stay home and believe God for a healing be considered a false doctrine 200 years ago. You know when doctors killed our first president by bleeding him for a common cold?
seekerman
10-23-2013, 09:57 PM
Ok before I say it's right or wrong and for the sake of understanding where you are coming from, would the so called "doctrine" of do not go to doctors, but stay home and believe God for a healing be considered a false doctrine 200 years ago. You know when doctors killed our first president by bleeding him for a common cold?
I'm speaking of ministers teaching a doctrine which results in practices of individuals watching their infants and children suffering sickness without medical attention, to the final result of death for some of them.
Is that a false and evil teaching?
Abiding Now
10-23-2013, 10:05 PM
I'm speaking of ministers teaching a doctrine which results in practices of individuals watching their infants and children suffering sickness without medical attention, to the final result of death for some of them.
Is that a false and evil teaching?
So you don't answer questions, you ask questions. Carry on.
Abiding Now
10-23-2013, 10:07 PM
Mar 5:25 And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,
Mar 5:26 And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,
Mar 5:27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
:D
seekerman
10-23-2013, 10:09 PM
Mar 5:25 And a certain woman, which had an issue of blood twelve years,
Mar 5:26 And had suffered many things of many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was nothing bettered, but rather grew worse,
Mar 5:27 When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
:D
You aren't going to answer.
Troubling and sad really.
KeptByTheWord
10-23-2013, 10:17 PM
I have lost my taste for jumping into the middle of debates that never seem to end, and go in circles, but... I feel I have to say this, even as I believe I have addressed this same issue before in a different thread some years ago...
I do know personally families that have been taught that going to the doctor was evil, and wrong, and one family I know of in particular, the wife suffers to this day with injuries because of not going to the doctor, and trying to have faith in the Lord instead, believing that going to a doctor would send her to hell.
I myself have a family member whose parents believed that trusting God was better than doctors, and sadly after a prolonged illness, their child stopped breathing and when they couldn't revive him, EMS was summoned and began resuscitation. The baby was revived, and lived, however, to this day is severely mentally handicapped. Who failed? The parents who were trusting God, or was it the pastor telling them to believe God, that God would heal the child?
You see... there is nothing wrong with trusting the Lord, and not trusting in doctors.
However, I do believe it is wrong to teach that you are "sinning" by going to a doctor, which I think is what Seekerman is trying to point out.
All of us should recognize that doctors are simply "practicing" medicine, and they certainly don't have all the answers, and make many mistakes, and people die in their care. However, on the other hand, they have helped to make people well too.
The evil here is that there are pastors who teach that it is evil and sinful, even worthy of hell fire to go to see a doctor, and that is negligent of your faith in the Lord. I do want to say this kind of teaching is evil, and wrong.
The right way to teach people is to have faith and trust in the Lord, but that many times, the Lord may direct us to seek the help of a physician for whatever his greater plan may be, and that in itself is not sinful, or evil.
And most of the time, the very people that teach it is wrong to see a doctor, when it comes to their own family, or themselves, will break their own teaching, and seek out a doctor in their hour of need, while others have died, holding onto their faith. That is an evil practice, and it will be dealt with by the Lord himself.
seekerman
10-23-2013, 10:20 PM
I have lost my taste for jumping into the middle of debates that never seem to end, and go in circles, but... I feel I have to say this, even as I believe I have addressed this same issue before in a different thread some years ago...
I do know personally families that have been taught that going to the doctor was evil, and wrong, and one family I know of in particular, the wife suffers to this day with injuries because of not going to the doctor, and trying to have faith in the Lord instead, believing that going to a doctor would send her to hell.
I myself have a family member whose parents believed that trusting God was better than doctors, and sadly after a prolonged illness, their child stopped breathing and when they couldn't revive him, EMS was summoned and began resuscitation. The baby was revived, and lived, however, to this day is severely mentally handicapped. Who failed? The parents who were trusting God, or was it the pastor telling them to believe God, that God would heal the child?
You see... there is nothing wrong with trusting the Lord, and not trusting in doctors.
However, I do believe it is wrong to teach that you are "sinning" by going to a doctor, which I think is what Seekerman is trying to point out.
All of us should recognize that doctors are simply "practicing" medicine, and they certainly don't have all the answers, and make many mistakes, and people die in their care. However, on the other hand, they have helped to make people well too.
The evil here is that there are pastors who teach that it is evil and sinful, even worthy of hell fire to go to see a doctor, and that is negligent of your faith in the Lord. I do want to say this kind of teaching is evil, and wrong.
The right way to teach people is to have faith and trust in the Lord, but that many times, the Lord may direct us to seek the help of a physician for whatever his greater plan may be, and that in itself is not sinful, or evil.
And most of the time, the very people that teach it is wrong to see a doctor, when it comes to their own family, or themselves, will break their own teaching, and seek out a doctor in their hour of need, while others have died, holding onto their faith. That is an evil practice, and it will be dealt with by the Lord himself.
Finally, someone actually taking a stand! Thank you very much!
RandyWayne
10-23-2013, 10:26 PM
Doctors, while they still make mistakes, are orders of magnitude better than they were 100 years ago. BUT, you'll still run into corrupt doctors, just like you'll run into corrupt pastors.
A pastor who preaches against doctors is akin to someone who preaches against the teaching that the Earth circles around the Sun rather than the other way around. It is called progress.
KeptByTheWord
10-23-2013, 10:40 PM
Seekerman, the problem I believe you are addressing is the fact that it is taught that "going to the doctor is a SIN" which will send you to hell... and for that reason, people - in fear - turn to the Lord fearing death of both their body and soul because of teaching gone astray.
I stand with you Seekerman, that it is a sad and evil practice, that has resulted in deaths of precious saints who were scared into believing "believe or die", and they died anyway. Who knows... they may have died had they sought a doctor's treatment, but the very teaching that "going to a doctor is sin worthy of hell"... is despicable.
Of note though, I would NEVER judge someone who in their faith believed and trusted God, and it was a personal thing between them and God, to trust and have faith, and not see a doctor for their illness, regardless of how it turned out. It is their personal decision, and walk of faith with the Lord.
However, if they believed they were going to hell because of not having enough faith to trust in God, then I would have to speak up and say... pray, and seek the Lord, ask Him what to do. Don't limit God by saying you won't go to a doctor! Perhaps he has a greater plan with you going to a doctor, than simply not at all... how are we to know the mind of God?
Example: I know a man who lived a great life of faith and healing. God touched and healed him many times. One particular time though, as he was ill, he understood from the Lord as he prayed that he was to seek medical attention, of which he was reluctant to do, as he wanted to trust God, but continued to be led strongly to do so. So, he did seek medical attention, which ended requiring open heart surgery for him. In the hospital, the lady in the bed next to him was dying. He began to witness to her, and she received the Holy Ghost there in the hospital room, revived from her illness, and went on to live a life of service to the Lord! What if he hadn't obeyed God, and stayed home?
You see... God has bigger plans and purposes that we can see... sometimes he heals, and sometimes he just takes us on to eternity. Sometimes he uses our illnesses to teach us things, or to bring a healing work into the life of someone else... so limiting God by saying NEVER go to the doctor ... is evil ... and binds a greater work that the Lord may be trying to accomplish.
Even in my life, there have been times I felt the Lord show me He would heal me, and He did, and other times as I prayed, I felt led to seek a physician's treatment. This is walking by faith, trusting in the guiding Hand of the Lord in all things!
seekerman
10-23-2013, 10:54 PM
Seekerman, the problem I believe you are addressing is the fact that it is taught that "going to the doctor is a SIN" which will send you to hell... and for that reason, people - in fear - turn to the Lord fearing death of both their body and soul because of teaching gone astray.
I stand with you Seekerman, that it is a sad and evil practice, that has resulted in deaths of precious saints who were scared into believing "believe or die", and they died anyway. Who knows... they may have died had they sought a doctor's treatment, but the very teaching that "going to a doctor is sin worthy of hell"... is despicable.
Of note though, I would NEVER judge someone who in their faith believed and trusted God, and it was a personal thing between them and God, to trust and have faith, and not see a doctor for their illness, regardless of how it turned out. It is their personal decision, and walk of faith with the Lord.
However, if they believed they were going to hell because of not having enough faith to trust in God, then I would have to speak up and say... pray, and seek the Lord, ask Him what to do. Don't limit God by saying you won't go to a doctor! Perhaps he has a greater plan with you going to a doctor, than simply not at all... how are we to know the mind of God?
Example: I know a man who lived a great life of faith and healing. God touched and healed him many times. One particular time though, as he was ill, he understood from the Lord as he prayed that he was to seek medical attention, of which he was reluctant to do, as he wanted to trust God, but continued to be led strongly to do so. So, he did seek medical attention, which ended requiring open heart surgery for him. In the hospital, the lady in the bed next to him was dying. He began to witness to her, and she received the Holy Ghost there in the hospital room, revived from her illness, and went on to live a life of service to the Lord! What if he hadn't obeyed God, and stayed home?
You see... God has bigger plans and purposes that we can see... sometimes he heals, and sometimes he just takes us on to eternity. Sometimes he uses our illnesses to teach us things, or to bring a healing work into the life of someone else... so limiting God by saying NEVER go to the doctor ... is evil ... and binds a greater work that the Lord may be trying to accomplish.
Even in my life, there have been times I felt the Lord show me He would heal me, and He did, and other times as I prayed, I felt led to seek a physician's treatment. This is walking by faith, trusting in the guiding Hand of the Lord in all things!
Good post, thank you for sharing this.
n david
10-23-2013, 11:21 PM
There's absolutely no compassion in you, is there?
Newsflash: Kim Kardashian is engaged to Kanye West....
RandyWayne
10-23-2013, 11:48 PM
Newsflash: Kim Kardashian is engaged to Kanye West....
"Ohhhhh My Gawwwwd! Saaaaay it isn't soooooo!"
http://ts4.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4924258487306815&pid=1.7
"Now this is a problem. You see, I liked Kanye. Now I'm emotionally compromised."
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn79/entertainme-/bth_allstate-mayhem-commercial-dean-win.jpg
seekerman
10-24-2013, 12:01 AM
Newsflash: Kim Kardashian is engaged to Kanye West....
I'm not surprised that you're more interested in things of the world than the suffering of children.
Nitehawk013
10-24-2013, 04:48 AM
You dont care about the suffering of children. You just want to argue and demonize Elder Epley.
seekerman
10-24-2013, 06:34 AM
You dont care about the suffering of children. You just want to argue and demonize Elder Epley.
The 'reverend' epley's acceptance of the demonic doctrine which results in the suffering and death of infants, children, husbands and wives is a self imposed demonization, isn't it? You're quick to defend a man but completely silent the helpless and innocent, aren't you?
Your priorities are noted.
The 'reverend' epley's acceptance of the demonic doctrine which results in the suffering and death of infants, children, husbands and wives is a self imposed demonization, isn't it? You're quick to defend a man but completely silent the helpless and innocent, aren't you?
Your priorities are noted.
You are a complete jerk. and you bring false charges. This idocy of calling this man 'reverand' is sick.
Brother Epley is a man of God who has dedicated himself to the things of God and has lived a life above reproach. He has sacrificed MORE than you ever would be willing to sacrifice for the Gospel.
I done watching you belittle a man who you cannot under any circumstance measure up to.
n david
10-24-2013, 08:06 AM
A minister was walking along when he came upon a bridge and was shocked to discover a man about ready to jump.
"Don't jump!" he said.
"I have nothing to live for" the man said to the minister.
"There's always hope if you believe in God. Do you believe in God" the minister asked.
"Yes." said the man.
"So do I!" Said the preacher. "Are you Jewish or a Christian?"
"I'm a Christian," said the man.
"So am I!" Said the minister. "Are you Catholic or Protestant?"
"I'm Prostesant," said the man.
"So am I!" Said the preacher. "Are you Methodist or Baptist?"
"I'm Baptist"said the man.
"So am I!" Said the preacher. "Are you a National Baptist or a Sovereign Baptist?"
"I'm a Sovereign Baptist" said the man.
"So am I!" Said the preacher. "Are you a Soverign Baptist who affirms the 1809 Statement of Faith or the 1932 Principles of Doctrines."
"Uh... the 1809 Statement of Faith" said the man.
"Great!" said the preacher, "As amended by the 1971 Declaration on Biblical Interpretation or as amended by the 1980 Summary of Historic Principles."
"Um... the 1971 Declaration of Biblical intrepretation." said the man.
The preacher shoves him off the bridge and shouted "Die heretic!"
n david
10-24-2013, 08:45 AM
I'm not surprised that you're more interested in things of the world than the suffering of children.
"So I'm at the wailing wall, standing there like a moron, with my harpoon." {Emo Phillips}
seekerman
10-24-2013, 09:03 AM
You are a complete jerk. and you bring false charges. This idocy of calling this man 'reverand' is sick.
What false charges have I brought? Actually reference something when you make such an accusation, ok?
Brother Epley is a man of God who has dedicated himself to the things of God and has lived a life above reproach. He has sacrificed MORE than you ever would be willing to sacrifice for the Gospel.
Oh, I think that could be said for lots of folks, not just the 'reverend'. I'm sure MacAruthur has lived a life beyond reproach and has sacrificed for the gospel also but of course that didn't stop the right 'reverend' from proclaiming that he was a false prophet. I know that's acceptable to you because MacArthur isn't part of the little latter day sect with which you associate.
You do realize there are Christians who openly speak out against Child abuse no matter who does it, don't you? Then there there are others, such as you and the 'reverend' who keep silent as long as the perpetrators are of your little latter day sect.
Strange fire indeed.
I done watching you belittle a man who you cannot under any circumstance measure up to.
You are speaking figuratively, aren't you?
seekerman
10-24-2013, 09:04 AM
"So I'm at the wailing wall, standing there like a moron, with my harpoon." {Emo Phillips}
Funny how children suffer and die because of religious ignorance, isn't it?
Hahahahahaha?
seekerman
10-24-2013, 09:05 AM
A minister was walking along when he came upon a bridge and was shocked to discover a man about ready to jump.
"Don't jump!" he said.
"I have nothing to live for" the man said to the minister.
"There's always hope if you believe in God. Do you believe in God" the minister asked.
"Yes." said the man.
"So do I!" Said the preacher. "Are you Jewish or a Christian?"
"I'm a Christian," said the man.
"So am I!" Said the minister. "Are you Catholic or Protestant?"
"I'm Prostesant," said the man.
"So am I!" Said the preacher. "Are you Methodist or Baptist?"
"I'm Baptist"said the man.
"So am I!" Said the preacher. "Are you a National Baptist or a Sovereign Baptist?"
"I'm a Sovereign Baptist" said the man.
"So am I!" Said the preacher. "Are you a Soverign Baptist who affirms the 1809 Statement of Faith or the 1932 Principles of Doctrines."
"Uh... the 1809 Statement of Faith" said the man.
"Great!" said the preacher, "As amended by the 1971 Declaration on Biblical Interpretation or as amended by the 1980 Summary of Historic Principles."
"Um... the 1971 Declaration of Biblical intrepretation." said the man.
The preacher shoves him off the bridge and shouted "Die heretic!"
Hahahahaha?
By the way, what do you personally think of the doctrine preached which results in children suffering and dying?
What a joke, huh?
Hahahahahaha?
seekerman
10-24-2013, 09:09 AM
Maybe it's time we jump back on MacAruthur? The focus of children suffering and dying because of ignorant preachers preaching a satanic message is hitting wayyyyy too close to the home of the 'apostolics'.
Boy, MacAruthur is sure a false prophet, isn't he? And he probably has a Christmas tree every year!! Now that's something the 'apostolics' can shout about!!
That's much more interesting and important than facing the doctrine which results in children suffering and dying, isn't it?
Maybe it's time we jump back on MacAruthur? The focus of children suffering and dying because of ignorant preachers preaching a satanic message is hitting wayyyyy too close to the home of the 'apostolics'.
Boy, MacAruthur is sure a false prophet, isn't he? And he probably has a Christmas tree every year!! Now that's something the 'apostolics' can shout about!!
That's much more interesting and important than facing the doctrine which results in children suffering and dying, isn't it?
how about you appologize to Brother Epley and everyone else for being a jerk?
n david
10-24-2013, 09:10 AM
Funny how children suffer and die because of religious ignorance, isn't it?
Hahahahahaha?
Nah, I'm just following the advice of my parents who said: "Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."
seekerman
10-24-2013, 09:14 AM
Nah, I'm just following the advice of my parents who said: "Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience."
Ok, I thought the discussion of children suffering and dying put you in a joking mood.
seekerman
10-24-2013, 09:18 AM
how about you appologize to Brother Epley and everyone else for being a jerk?
Tell you what, let 'reverend' epley apologize for calling MacArthur a false prophet and we can go from there.
And I ask again, what false charges?
And...why don't you apologize, and repent, along with 'reverend' epley, for staying silent on the practice of allowing infants and children to suffer and die for ungodly teaching?
Esaias
10-24-2013, 09:39 AM
And...why don't you apologize, and repent, along with 'reverend' epley, for staying silent on the practice of allowing infants and children to suffer and die for ungodly teaching?
Now see, you seem to demand that people apologise for not jumping through a hoop you set up. You are acting as if people are somehow OBLIGATED to 'speak up' when YOU say 'it is time' to speak up.
It reminds me of a blog war I once witnessed. Two bloggers despised each other. At one point, blogger A made some snarky comments about blogger B. Blogger B responded with some snarky comments of his own. But then, blogger B then went on for several days basically saying that 'if you don't speak up and declare on your blog or in the comments here or somewhere that you stand with me, then you are obviously on blogger A's side and are a twit and an evil bad person.' And immediately about a dozen people 'spoke up' and made their declarations of how blogger B was so right and blogger A was so wrong.
Some of us, though, are not interested in offering a pinch of incense to ANYONE on the internet, simply because we think it stinks.
seekerman
10-24-2013, 09:56 AM
Now see, you seem to demand that people apologise for not jumping through a hoop you set up. You are acting as if people are somehow OBLIGATED to 'speak up' when YOU say 'it is time' to speak up.
I find it interesting that you responded to my call for apologies but didn't respond to another's call for apologies. The psychology of religious message boards is interesting indeed.
Some of us, though, are not interested in offering a pinch of incense to ANYONE on the internet, simply because we think it stinks.[/B]
Ok.....whatever that means.
Esaias
10-24-2013, 10:16 AM
I find it interesting that you responded to my call for apologies but didn't respond to another's call for apologies. The psychology of religious message boards is interesting indeed.
Ok.....whatever that means.
Uh, Ferd demanded you apologise for YOUR statements. You, however, are dema...
Oh never mind.
n david
10-24-2013, 10:20 AM
Uh, Ferd demanded you apologise for YOUR statements. You, however, are dema...
Oh never mind.
:toofunny
Sometimes you have to know when to hold them, and know when to fold them. This is one of those times when it's just better to fold. :lol
kclee4jc
10-24-2013, 10:35 AM
seekerman...you hijacked and destroyed my thread with something that had absolutely no relevance to the topic. If you want to accuse and berate tremendous men of God for something they do not practice or have any control over then go do it somewhere else.
I have this to say. If you would extend half of your energy toward actually "seeking" truth, getting right with God and actually advancing the Kingdom of God rather than doing everything in your power to tear down Apostolics, I have no doubt you could be of great use.
May God grant you a spirit of repentance is my prayer.
the good news is it seems we all know who the jerk is.
navygoat1998
10-24-2013, 11:27 AM
the good news is it seems we all know who the jerk is.
Did somebody call :happydance
Michael The Disciple
10-24-2013, 01:29 PM
seekerman...you hijacked and destroyed my thread with something that had absolutely no relevance to the topic. If you want to accuse and berate tremendous men of God for something they do not practice or have any control over then go do it somewhere else.
I have this to say. If you would extend half of your energy toward actually "seeking" truth, getting right with God and actually advancing the Kingdom of God rather than doing everything in your power to tear down Apostolics, I have no doubt you could be of great use.
May God grant you a spirit of repentance is my prayer.
:highfive
seekerman
10-24-2013, 02:43 PM
seekerman...you hijacked and destroyed my thread with something that had absolutely no relevance to the topic.
The topic was the Strange Fire Conference, wasn't it? 'Reverend' epley, manifesting his typical Pharisaical spirit, quickly hijacked the thread by accusing MacArthur of being a false prophet, so it wasn't me who hijacked the thread, it was 'reverend' epley.
If we're going to talk about false prophets, why not talk about those false prophets in the 'apostolic' movement which preach the damnable doctrine which results in the suffering and death of the innocent.....infants and children.
I know, I know, you're simply wanting to identify those damnable doctrines which aren't part of the so-called, self-labeled 'apostolic' movement, but there's strange fire in that little latter day sect also.
If you want to accuse and berate tremendous men of God for something they do not practice or have any control over then go do it somewhere else.
Those who teach a doctrine which results in the suffering, and death, of the innocent infants and children aren't "tremendous men of God". They're false prophets and it's time the 'apostolics' face it.
I have this to say. If you would extend half of your energy toward actually "seeking" truth, getting right with God and actually advancing the Kingdom of God rather than doing everything in your power to tear down Apostolics, I have no doubt you could be of great use.
I have this to say, if you would take your religious blinders off, take your head out of the denominational sand and look around you, you would be horrified at some of the strange fire of the 'apostolic' movement such as teachings which result in the suffering and death of innocent little infants and children.
Let's identify the false prophets and strange fire in honesty.
May God grant you a spirit of repentance is my prayer.
May God have mercy on you, and those who are responsible for, and condones , the doctrine which result in the abuse of the innocent children.
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Esaias
10-24-2013, 02:47 PM
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_MIEJTH5X1_g/SwxL7AleLlI/AAAAAAAAAIU/eF-kPmYGbYI/s1600/mp_thread_hijack.jpg
Abiding Now
10-24-2013, 03:32 PM
Hmmmmm.... Since Seekerman knows the preachers that teach the "doctrine" of don't go to the doctor because going to a doctor is a sin and he knows where the graves of innocent wives and children are located, I was wondering if he has ever personally confronted those false preacher. You know, help these preacher see their error.
Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
n david
10-24-2013, 03:42 PM
Hmmmmm.... Since Seekerman knows the preachers that teach the "doctrine" of don't go to the doctor because going to a doctor is a sin and he knows where the graves of innocent wives and children are located, I was wondering if he has ever personally confronted those false preacher. You know, help these preacher see their error.
Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Oh, I'm sure he has. Otherwise his silence would show he approves their "doctrine" and is complicit in these alleged mass deaths.
:nod
RandyWayne
10-24-2013, 05:23 PM
Oh, I'm sure he has. Otherwise his silence would show he approves their "doctrine" and is complicit in these alleged mass deaths.
:nod
I agree that Seeker seems to be stuck on this particular topic, almost like Les Nessman's obsession with hog reporting on WKRP in Cincinnati, but have a feeling there is a deeper reason for it, one which he hasn't exactly gone into detail about.
As far as the ISSUE of some having a "no doctors!" doctrine, I will disagree with them on a individual level quite heatedly especially when their children start being effected BUT they are just so few and far between that it isn't worth arguing about in a general since (unlike slightly more accepted doctrines like Holy Magic Hair) since I know of no mainstream churches that hold to this.
Abiding Now
10-24-2013, 05:50 PM
I agree that Seeker seems to be stuck on this particular topic, almost like Les Nessman's obsession with hog reporting on WKRP in Cincinnati, but have a feeling there is a deeper reason for it, one which he hasn't exactly gone into detail about.
As far as the ISSUE of some having a "no doctors!" doctrine, I will disagree with them on a individual level quite heatedly especially when their children start being effected BUT they are just so few and far between that it isn't worth arguing about in a general since (unlike slightly more accepted doctrines like Holy Magic Hair) since I know of no mainstream churches that hold to this.
Well there's something to be thankful for.
seekerman
10-25-2013, 03:15 AM
Hmmmmm.... Since Seekerman knows the preachers that teach the "doctrine" of don't go to the doctor because going to a doctor is a sin and he knows where the graves of innocent wives and children are located, I was wondering if he has ever personally confronted those false preacher. You know, help these preacher see their error.
Jas 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Yes I have. How could one stand by and allow a satanic doctrine to result in the suffering of innocent infants and children and not say something?
seekerman
10-25-2013, 03:19 AM
Oh, I'm sure he has. Otherwise his silence would show he approves their "doctrine" and is complicit in these alleged mass deaths.
:nod
Alleged? No, they're not alleged, they're very real. It's not only the deaths though, it's the suffering of the innocent also.
It matters not if there's one or if there's ten or if there's a thousand, those who preach doctrines in the name of Christ which result in the suffering and/or death of the innocent infants and children are preaching a satanic doctrine.
I don't expect you to agree.
seekerman
10-25-2013, 03:31 AM
I agree that Seeker seems to be stuck on this particular topic, almost like Les Nessman's obsession with hog reporting on WKRP in Cincinnati, but have a feeling there is a deeper reason for it, one which he hasn't exactly gone into detail about.
Why does there have to be a reason other than to recognize the error of such teachings? This isn't about me, it's about those who teach doctrines which result in the suffering and death of the innocent infants and children.
Wouldn't you agree that's an evil and corrupt doctrine? You personally wouldn't have to experience such tragedy in order to reject such teachings, would you?
As far as the ISSUE of some having a "no doctors!" doctrine, I will disagree with them on a individual level quite heatedly especially when their children start being effected BUT they are just so few and far between that it isn't worth arguing about in a general since (unlike slightly more accepted doctrines like Holy Magic Hair) since I know of no mainstream churches that hold to this.
You're correct, there are no mainstream churches which practice such doctrines. There are however churches in the circles which 'reverend' epley fellowships where this has happened more than once. The point was, the 'reverend' epley was quick to label MacArthur a false prophet but is silent on the strange fire of those within his fellowship.
Such is religion.
Kinda sickening, isn't it?
Abiding Now
10-25-2013, 08:35 AM
Yes I have. How could one stand by and allow a satanic doctrine to result in the suffering of innocent infants and children and not say something?
Please PM me the names of the preachers. Thanks.
This isn't about me,
Kinda sickening, isn't it?
In fact, this has become utterly about YOU.
and yes. It is kinda sickening.
seekerman
10-25-2013, 09:13 AM
Please PM me the names of the preachers. Thanks.
I've said that I'm not going to reveal names. Ask 'reverend' epley and see if he'll reveal them.
We can agree that such a doctrine is a satanic and evil doctrine though, can't we?
seekerman
10-25-2013, 09:15 AM
In fact, this has become utterly about YOU.
and yes. It is kinda sickening.
This about the innocent infants and children who have parent that ignorantly follow ignorant preachers preaching evil and satanic doctrine.
You don't have a problem with them, do you?
n david
10-25-2013, 09:32 AM
I've said that I'm not going to reveal names.
Why not? I mean, if you truly know who these "false prophets" are, and if you've really confronted them about their "doctrine," why wouldn't you reveal who they are? Not revealing who they are only enables these "false prophets" to continue to preach their "doctrine."
You've attacked and maligned Bro. Epley's character, integrity and ministry over what you perceive to be his lack of addressing these "false prophets," yet you wilt and refuse to name any yourself. Could it be you don't really know any by name and haven't confronted them to their face. Simply posting anonymously against them on the internet doesn't count.
BTW, have you been at Bro. Epley's side each time he's been with these alleged "false prophets?" Perhaps Bro. Epley's character is such that instead of posting on the internet against these men, he's spoken to them in person about the "doctrine" they preach. You do realize that it matters more what he may have said in person than anything he could post online.
But that probably didn't cross your mind when you went on your character assassination attack against Bro. Epley. :nah
This about the innocent infants and children who have parent that ignorantly follow ignorant preachers preaching evil and satanic doctrine.
You don't have a problem with them, do you?
no seekerman. this is about you. the fact that you refuse to accept that is quite telling.
it is about you, it is only about you. it is about you deciding what is and is not acceptable.
and you are dancing in the blood of dead babies to make it about you.
seekerman
10-25-2013, 12:31 PM
Why not? I mean, if you truly know who these "false prophets" are, and if you've really confronted them about their "doctrine," why wouldn't you reveal who they are? Not revealing who they are only enables these "false prophets" to continue to preach their "doctrine."
No, folks like you who will not confront their error is what enables them to preach their ungodly and evil doctrine which results in innocent infants and children to suffer and die.
I've found that witnessing individually to people who are involved in such ministries to be the most effective way to battle it. I've been somewhat successful in helping them escape the 'apostolic' movement which practices such error. You cannot count on the ministry in the cult-like sect to openly challenge the error..... I give you the 'reverend' epley as an example.
I use the 'reverend' epley as a poster child of those in the sect. He's typical, choosing to label those who aren't part of their little sect as false prophets but turn a blind eye to the false prophets within their own little group.
You've attacked and maligned Bro. Epley's character, integrity and ministry over what you perceive to be his lack of addressing these "false prophets," yet you wilt and refuse to name any yourself. Could it be you don't really know any by name and haven't confronted them to their face. Simply posting anonymously against them on the internet doesn't count.
You asked me, I answered. I did expect you to disbelieve me, but I hoped you would take me at my word. It really doesn't matter, either that is practiced among 'reverend' epley's group or it's not. I know it is. And I know that, hypocritically, folks like 'reverend' epley, and now it seems some on this very forum, choose to ignore the evil and ungodly practice in favor of attempting to justify error.
BTW, have you been at Bro. Epley's side each time he's been with these alleged "false prophets?" Perhaps Bro. Epley's character is such that instead of posting on the internet against these men, he's spoken to them in person about the "doctrine" they preach. You do realize that it matters more what he may have said in person than anything he could post online.
But that probably didn't cross your mind when you went on your character assassination attack against Bro. Epley. :nah
Pointing out the 'reverend' epley's error isn't character assassination. The 'reverend' epley has absolutely no problem in pointing out error and false prophets in other groups which isn't part of the little sect he fellowships with. But you'll never see him openly challenge those in his own group. The 'reverend' epley has no problem with character assassination with those who aren't part of his little sect, but that's acceptable with you and others because they're folks with whom you disagree. Disagreement isn't character assassination, pointing out that others are false prophets while ignoring the false prophets in your little sect is hypocritical though.
I understand how the 'apostolic' sect works, I assure you.
seekerman
10-25-2013, 12:33 PM
no seekerman. this is about you. the fact that you refuse to accept that is quite telling.
it is about you, it is only about you. it is about you deciding what is and is not acceptable.
and you are dancing in the blood of dead babies to make it about you.
Well, let's just see what your position is on those who teach doctrines which result in the suffering and/or death of innocent infants and children. Is such a doctrine evil and ungodly?
I don't expect a straight answer from you. I expect you to revert, as you've done repeatedly now, to your 'apostolic' defense of those in your 'apostolic' sect.
Abiding Now
10-25-2013, 12:45 PM
I've said that I'm not going to reveal names. Ask 'reverend' epley and see if he'll reveal them.
We can agree that such a doctrine is a satanic and evil doctrine though, can't we?
How can I agree, when you offer no proof, no names, no places where this supposedly false doctrine was preached. Too hypothetical for me.
seekerman
10-25-2013, 12:51 PM
How can I agree, when you offer no proof, no names, no places where this supposedly false doctrine was preached. Too hypothetical for me.
Right. :thumbsup
Abiding Now
10-25-2013, 12:54 PM
Right. :thumbsup
Thanks.
seekerman
10-25-2013, 01:05 PM
Hopefully, we can now go back to character assassination of MacArthur. That seems to be a vastly more acceptable and enjoyable endeavor by most on the forum.
How about that MacArthur? We have "false prophet" offered, do I hear any other bid?
Praxeas
10-25-2013, 01:06 PM
I don't know of anyone that believes going to the Doctor is a sin. Sounds like this is more about being inflammatory than having an honest discussion.
Well, let's just see what your position is on those who teach doctrines which result in the suffering and/or death of innocent infants and children. Is such a doctrine evil and ungodly?
I don't expect a straight answer from you. I expect you to revert, as you've done repeatedly now, to your 'apostolic' defense of those in your 'apostolic' sect.
youve been around long enough to know that I will call out members of my own "sect" as heritics. stating otherwise on your part is done knowing what you are saying is false.
now you are lying about me. Once again you deflect and continue to make this all about seekerman. you arent funny.
n david
10-25-2013, 01:12 PM
No, folks like you who will not confront their error is what enables them to preach their ungodly and evil doctrine which results in innocent infants and children to suffer and die.
Why do I need to confront something I've never experienced? In all the churches I've been a part of, I have never heard this "doctrine" you describe. Oh sure, I've read your claims here, but you're hardly a reliable or trustworthy source.
I've found that witnessing individually to people who are involved in such ministries to be the most effective way to battle it. I've been somewhat successful in helping them escape the 'apostolic' movement which practices such error. You cannot count on the ministry in the cult-like sect to openly challenge the error..... I give you the reverend epley as an example.
So then why are you anonymously bashing Bro. Epley and these unnamed ministers you claim preach this "doctrine."
I use the reverend epley as a poster child of those in the sect. He's typical, choosing to label those who aren't part of their little sect as false prophets but turn a blind eye to the false prophets within their own little group.
MacArthur is a false prophet.
You asked me, I answered. I did expect you to disbelieve me, but I hoped you would take me at my word. It really doesn't matter, either that is practiced among reverend epley's group or it's not. I know it is. And I know that, hypocritically, folks like reverend epley, and now it seems some on this very forum, choose to ignore the evil and ungodly practice in favor of attempting to justify error.
You hide in anonymity, claim to know and have confronted unnamed preachers, claim to know where the burial sites are for the people murdered by the "doctrine" preached by these unnamed ministers, but refuse to name these ministers or even say where the mass graves are located.....then you hope I would take you at your word? :toofunny
Pointing out the reverend epley's error isn't character assassination. The reverend epley has absolutely no problem in pointing out error and false prophets in other groups which isn't part of the little sect he fellowships with. But you'll never see him openly challenge those in his own group. The reverend epley has no problem with character assassination with those who aren't part of his little sect, but that's acceptable with you and others because they're folks with whom you disagree. Disagreement isn't character assassination, pointing out that others are false prophets while ignoring the false prophets in your little sect is hypocritical though.
The way you have addressed this is textbook character assassination.
"Character assassination is a deliberate and sustained process that aims to destroy the credibility and reputation of a person, institution, social group, or nation"
Every time you put "reverend" in apostrophe's (which is incorrect anyway) you do so deliberately to try and question his credibility. Every post you've written here has been a deliberate and sustained attempt to try to destroy Bro. Epley's credibility and reputation.
You say "Disagreement isn't character assassination." What you have posted isn't just a disagreement. Disagreement doesn't impugn a man's character, integrity and ministry.
I noticed you quoted, but didn't answer a question I asked you. Have you been with Bro. Epley when he has visited these ministers? Have you physically been present at every service, or wherever he has been with these ministers? Because if you have not, then you cannot claim to know whether or not he's confront this "doctrine."
Just because he doesn't play your little game and post a statement online, doesn't mean he hasn't confronted it.
seekerman
10-25-2013, 01:12 PM
youve been around long enough to know that I will call out members of my own "sect" as heritics. stating otherwise on your part is done knowing what you are saying is false.
now you are lying about me. Once again you deflect and continue to make this all about seekerman. you arent funny.
You didn't answer. Here it is again....
Concerning the doctrines which result in the suffering and/or death of innocent infants and children. Is such a doctrine evil and ungodly?
seekerman
10-25-2013, 01:13 PM
MacArthur is a false prophet.
Character assassination?
seekerman
10-25-2013, 01:16 PM
Why do I need to confront something I've never experienced? In all the churches I've been a part of, I have never heard this "doctrine" you describe. Oh sure, I've read your claims here, but you're hardly a reliable or trustworthy source.
PM 'reverend' epley. Ask him. See what he says if he knows of examples of what I'm speaking of.
You didn't answer. Here it is again....
Concerning the doctrines which result in the suffering and/or death of innocent infants and children. Is such a doctrine evil and ungodly?
dude, im not playing your stupid game.
you are the one that is bringing up nonsense so you can slam Elder Epley because you dont like him. THis isnt your first round of insulting him.
the only thing that needs to be spoken out against is your small insulting demeaning attitude.
seekerman
10-25-2013, 01:25 PM
dude, im not playing your stupid game.
you are the one that is bringing up nonsense so you can slam Elder Epley because you dont like him. THis isnt your first round of insulting him.
the only thing that needs to be spoken out against is your small insulting demeaning attitude.
Run.
Run.
Whos running little man? im right here.
you want my address?
seekerman
10-25-2013, 01:28 PM
Whos running little man? im right here.
you want my address?
I'd simply like for you to answer the question instead of running from it.
n david
10-25-2013, 01:28 PM
Character assassination?
I see you've latched on and turned around the term I used for you.
I'm not saying anything false about MacArthur. He preaches false doctrine.
seekerman
10-25-2013, 01:30 PM
I see you've latched on and turned around the term I used for you.
I'm not saying anything false about MacArthur. He preaches false doctrine.
You said he was a false prophet, didn't you? Why isn't that character assassination.
n david
10-25-2013, 01:31 PM
PM 'reverend' epley. Ask him. See what he says if he knows of examples of what I'm speaking of.
Why should I ask him. He's not the one who is claiming to know these preachers and where the mass graves are locate. Nor has he boasted of helping people escape the "apostolic" movement, as you have.
I want it from you. You made the claims, show your proof or let everyone know you're a liar.
I'd simply like for you to answer the question instead of running from it.
well considering this is about your hatred for a very good man, im not going to play with a jerk. you want an answer to your inisip question, find someone who is willing to start a thread about the subject.
maybe I will talk about that there.
if you show up, you can bet all i will do is be insulting because that is all you deserve.
seekerman
10-25-2013, 01:33 PM
Why should I ask him. He's not the one who is claiming to know these preachers and where the mass graves are locate. Nor has he boasted of helping people escape the "apostolic" movement, as you have.
I want it from you. You made the claims, show your proof or let everyone know you're a liar.
I told you that I wasn't going to give names. Call me a liar if you wish, doesn't really matter to me.
Maybe 'reverend' epley will actually show up instead of lurking and clear this up. But I doubt it.
seekerman
10-25-2013, 01:33 PM
well considering this is about your hatred for a very good man, im not going to play with a jerk. you want an answer to your inisip question, find someone who is willing to start a thread about the subject.
maybe I will talk about that there.
if you show up, you can bet all i will do is be insulting because that is all you deserve.
Run. Don't answer. Run.
n david
10-25-2013, 01:34 PM
You said he was a false prophet, didn't you? Why isn't that character assassination.
From Webster's dictionary:
character assassination
noun: the act of saying false things about a person usually in order to make the public stop liking or trusting that person
It's not false or a lie that he preaches false doctrine. A person who preaches false doctrine is a false prophet.
n david
10-25-2013, 01:36 PM
I told you that I wasn't going to give names. Call me a liar if you wish, doesn't really matter to me.
Maybe 'reverend' epley will actually show up instead of lurking and clear this up. But I doubt it.
Who's really running here? You make an outrageous claim and write post after post trying to impugn a man's integrity and ministry...but you won't back up your claims with any sort of proof. Instead, you say to ask someone else who didn't make the claims.
You need help.
Run. Don't answer. Run.
again, im right here. you want to meet up some place and discuss your pitiful small minded hatred in person? im up for it.
berkeley
10-25-2013, 01:37 PM
Funny. When OP's teach false doctrine it's brushed off as a misinterpretation.
seekerman
10-25-2013, 01:37 PM
From Webster's dictionary:
It's not false or a lie that he preaches false doctrine. A person who preaches false doctrine is a false prophet.
It's your opinion that he teaches false doctrine, it's my opinion that some with which 'reverend' epley associates preach false doctrine.
You wish to be exempt from the false prophet accusation because of your disagreement, but at the same time attempting to accuse me of character assassination because of my disagreement with doctrines you apparently agree with.
berkeley
10-25-2013, 01:38 PM
again, im right here. you want to meet up some place and discuss your pitiful small minded hatred in person? im up for it.terrible attitude
seekerman
10-25-2013, 01:39 PM
again, im right here. you want to meet up some place and discuss your pitiful small minded hatred in person? im up for it.
It'd just be so simple for you to give an answer here on the forum for all to see. Of course you're not going to do that, I know it, everyone knows it.
Now you're angry because of your failure.
seekerman
10-25-2013, 01:40 PM
terrible attitude
He's 'apostolic' I bet. :thumbsup
terrible attitude
you need to butt out
seekerman
10-25-2013, 01:45 PM
you need to butt out
Remember berkley, ferd is likely an 'apostolic'. Watch his behavior. :santathumb
It'd just be so simple for you to give an answer here on the forum for all to see. Of course you're not going to do that, I know it, everyone knows it.
Now you're angry because of your failure.
see how the silly little guy turns it around?
well person, on this forum, I have called men heritics who belong to the same organization that I belong to. in fact I have used the term "damnible heritic"
I have in fact used that term in discussing a preacher within my org, with officials of the organization. even when not knowing thier view on the issue.
seekerman
10-25-2013, 01:48 PM
see how the silly little guy turns it around?
well person, on this forum, I have called men heritics who belong to the same organization that I belong to. in fact I have used the term "damnible heritic"
I have in fact used that term in discussing a preacher within my org, with officials of the organization. even when not knowing thier view on the issue.
Wonderful. Great. Good for you.
But.....you aren't answering the question.
kclee4jc
10-25-2013, 01:50 PM
terrible attitude
I am in complete agreement with what Ferd has said.
The issue here is that he is allowing a fool to drag him into the mud and wallow around in it with him.
Reading this individuals ridiculous retoric has evoked some emotions in me as well and I have stated my opinion clearly. I also keep in mind that Bro Epley has a God for his defense and he doesnt need us to pull out our swords in his behalf.
If you would hear my humble opinion Ferd....let this die. Seeker will stand before God for what he has said.
seekerman
10-25-2013, 01:52 PM
ISeeker will stand before God for what he has said.
Well....not just seeker, but all of us. Be sure to include yourself.
Mat 12:35 "The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil.
Mat 12:36 "But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
I am in complete agreement with what Ferd has said.
The issue here is that he is allowing a fool to drag him into the mud and wallow around in it with him.
Reading this individuals ridiculous retoric has evoked some emotions in me as well and I have stated my opinion clearly. I also keep in mind that Bro Epley has a God for his defense and he doesnt need us to pull out our swords in his behalf.
If you would hear my humble opinion Ferd....let this die. Seeker will stand before God for what he has said.
you are right kc lee...I will bow out. Thank you for bringing me back from the edge here....
I certainly appologize for letting my emotions get the best of me.
seekerman
10-25-2013, 01:55 PM
you are right kc lee...I will bow out. Thank you for bringing me back from the edge here....
I certainly appologize for letting my emotions get the best of me.
Apology accepted, brother!
berkeley
10-25-2013, 02:12 PM
I am in complete agreement with what Ferd has said. The issue here is that he is allowing a fool to drag him into the mud and wallow around in it with him. Reading this individuals ridiculous retoric has evoked some emotions in me as well and I have stated my opinion clearly. I also keep in mind that Bro Epley has a God for his defense and he doesnt need us to pull out our swords in his behalf. If you would hear my humble opinion Ferd....let this die. Seeker will stand before God for what he has said.you may be in agreement but you're not being a jerk about it
berkeley
10-25-2013, 02:14 PM
you need to butt outpublic forum
navygoat1998
10-25-2013, 02:24 PM
:popcorn2
berkeley
10-25-2013, 02:41 PM
:popcorn2you need to butt out
navygoat1998
10-25-2013, 02:46 PM
you need to butt out
http://joyerickson.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/rump-roast.jpg
Jason B
10-25-2013, 07:17 PM
MacArthur is a false prophet.
Based on what biblical criteria?
Because he interprets Acts 2:38 differently?
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