How do you 'pastor' somebody?

[Esaias]

Hearing a lot of talk about 'pastoring' people.

So... for all you pastors...how do you 'pastor' somebody?

Specifically, what is involved?

[Steve Epley]

First comes the call and burden.
Your burden is to pray for their spiritual well being and seek God for messages that will perfect-encourage-and bless them.
You watch for their souls to lead-admonish-and yes sometimes to reprove and rebuke them to keep them in the narrow path.
You are grieved when you see them making wrong decisions that will affect adversely themselves and their families.
God has placed you in their lives to feed them which means to care for them. Simple but there it is.

[Esaias]

Here is a good bible study of the subject of 'pastors'.

http://www.bibleanswerstand.org/pastors.htm

[MissBrattified]

First comes the call and burden.
Your burden is to pray for their spiritual well being and seek God for messages that will perfect-encourage-and bless them.
You watch for their souls to lead-admonish-and yes sometimes to reprove and rebuke them to keep them in the narrow path.
You are grieved when you see them making wrong decisions that will affect adversely themselves and their families.
God has placed you in their lives to feed them which means to care for them. Simple but there it is.

:thumbsup Spoken like a man with a pastor's heart--my Dad would have given a similar answer. I believe that most pastors feel this way. The bad apples are a lot fewer and farther between than people might think.

[MissBrattified]

Here is a good bible study of the subject of 'pastors'.

http://www.bibleanswerstand.org/pastors.htm

That looks like a good study, but isn't it more interesting to read replies from the pastors on this board? :) I think you learn a lot more when you listen to people speak from their hearts. One person's perspective on what should comprise pastoring is going to have subjective value, depending on the already established views of the reader.

[Esaias]

That looks like a good study, but isn't it more interesting to read replies from the pastors on this board? :) I think you learn a lot more when you listen to people speak from their hearts. One person's perspective on what should comprise pastoring is going to have subjective value, depending on the already established views of the reader.

The problem is most 'pastors' on this board do not seem to match the biblical definition of 'pastor', in that most pastors on this board believe in and support the 'one man, one church' sole pastorship model rather than the biblical model.

As a result, their views as to what a pastor's job is, will likely be biased towards the particular model they are part of.

Brother Epley's response demonstrates his concern for the spiritual well-being of the people who look to him as their shepherd. However, I can't help but think that brother Epley has limited himself because of his views on the nature of eldership, oversight, church structure, etc.

My personal experience has been that 'pastors' generally are focused on two things - Doing good sermons, and making sure everybody in the church is paying tithes and not rocking the boat. The pastor has 'the vision' for the church, everybody else is a helpmate to achieve his vision. Anyone who has a different 'vision' is invited to find another church (or worse...). I have personally known pastors who are wonderful Christians, and others who seem to be nothing more than hired help, managers running a business, but I have never seen a church functioning Biblically, with a plurality of elders having the oversight and teaching house to house (ie spending time with each family or household teaching them sound doctrine).

As someone pointed out on the other thread... 'who pastors the pastor?'

[tv1a]

I teach people and let them fly. Not a good legalists methodology.

[Abiding Now]

I teach people and let them fly. Not a good legalists methodology.

Joh 10:12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

Joh 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

[n david]

So... for all you pastors...how do you 'pastor' somebody?

Specifically, what is involved?
Well, I'm not a Pastor, (can I get an Amen and Hallelujah!?) but I'm pretty sure it involves some yelling, beating on the pulpit with your fist, spitting a lot of saliva on the microphone, demanding an offering and berating anyone who's unable to give, requiring members to submit their work and vacation schedules, and taking from the offering to build a retirement account or buy a large home/multiple automobiles/go on vacation, etc.

At least, that's what I've learned from reading different posts on here.

[Esaias]

Well, I'm not a Pastor, (can I get an Amen and Hallelujah!?) but I'm pretty sure it involves some yelling, beating on the pulpit with your fist, spitting a lot of saliva on the microphone, demanding an offering and berating anyone who's unable to give, requiring members to submit their work and vacation schedules, and taking from the offering to build a retirement account or buy a large home/multiple automobiles/go on vacation, etc.

At least, that's what I've learned from reading different posts on here.

:toofunny

[Abiding Now]

How do you 'pastor' somebody?

FIRST and this is an absolute FIRST, take their money, get as much as you can, then make unreasonable demands upon them for more money, call them names from the pulpit, don't let them go on vacations, intimidate them every Sunday and Wednesday. Ughhhh, at least that's what I read around here.

tic

[hometown guy]

How do you 'pastor' somebody?

FIRST and this is an absolute FIRST, take their money, get as much as you can, then make unreasonable demands upon them for more money, call them names from the pulpit, don't let them go on vacations, intimidate them every Sunday and Wednesday. Ughhhh, at least that's what I read around here.

tic

Lol

[houston]

How do you 'pastor' somebody? FIRST and this is an absolute FIRST, take their money, get as much as you can, then make unreasonable demands upon them for more money, call them names from the pulpit, don't let them go on vacations, intimidate them every Sunday and Wednesday. Ughhhh, at least that's what I read around here. ticsounds about right

[phareztamar]

First comes the call and burden.
Your burden is to pray for their spiritual well being and seek God for messages that will perfect-encourage-and bless them.
You watch for their souls to lead-admonish-and yes sometimes to reprove and rebuke them to keep them in the narrow path.
You are grieved when you see them making wrong decisions that will affect adversely themselves and their families.
God has placed you in their lives to feed them which means to care for them. Simple but there it is.

Amen pastor.

[Abiding Now]

How do you 'pastor' somebody?

FIRST and this is an absolute FIRST, take their money, get as much as you can, then make unreasonable demands upon them for more money, call them names from the pulpit, don't let them go on vacations, intimidate them every Sunday and Wednesday. Ughhhh, at least that's what I read around here.

tic

Oh yeah, you tell them that you pastor the ONLY church where they can be saved and if they leave, they are reprobates. tic

[n david]

Oh yeah, you tell them that you pastor the ONLY church where they can be saved and if they leave, they are reprobates. tic

:thumbsup

[KeptByTheWord]

The problem is most 'pastors' on this board do not seem to match the biblical definition of 'pastor', in that most pastors on this board believe in and support the 'one man, one church' sole pastorship model rather than the biblical model.

but I have never seen a church functioning Biblically, with a plurality of elders having the oversight and teaching house to house (ie spending time with each family or household teaching them sound doctrine).

As someone pointed out on the other thread... 'who pastors the pastor?'

I hold no grudge against those who pastor, however, as you have pointed out, the biblical model of ministry is almost impossible to find, and we have lived in many parts of the country, attended different churches/organizations and have never found this biblical ministry.

How do you 'pastor' somebody?

FIRST and this is an absolute FIRST, take their money, get as much as you can, then make unreasonable demands upon them for more money, call them names from the pulpit, don't let them go on vacations, intimidate them every Sunday and Wednesday. Ughhhh, at least that's what I read around here.

tic

This actually perfectly describes the pastor I had for over twenty years, as a child growing up, and it is not an exaggeration. Certainly, not a biblical interpretation of pastor. This pastor particularly enjoyed calling names from the pulpit, and publicly humiliating those in the congregation. Fear and manipulation were his main tools. He did fellowship with Epley in years past, although I don't know that they are in fellowship any longer .

[MissBrattified]

The problem is most 'pastors' on this board do not seem to match the biblical definition of 'pastor', in that most pastors on this board believe in and support the 'one man, one church' sole pastorship model rather than the biblical model.

As a result, their views as to what a pastor's job is, will likely be biased towards the particular model they are part of.

Brother Epley's response demonstrates his concern for the spiritual well-being of the people who look to him as their shepherd. However, I can't help but think that brother Epley has limited himself because of his views on the nature of eldership, oversight, church structure, etc.

My personal experience has been that 'pastors' generally are focused on two things - Doing good sermons, and making sure everybody in the church is paying tithes and not rocking the boat. The pastor has 'the vision' for the church, everybody else is a helpmate to achieve his vision. Anyone who has a different 'vision' is invited to find another church (or worse...). I have personally known pastors who are wonderful Christians, and others who seem to be nothing more than hired help, managers running a business, but I have never seen a church functioning Biblically, with a plurality of elders having the oversight and teaching house to house (ie spending time with each family or household teaching them sound doctrine).

As someone pointed out on the other thread... 'who pastors the pastor?'

[Often unattainable] Ideals aside, I believe most pastors have good hearts and are in it for the right reasons. Even if the system is messed up, that doesn't mean they aren't doing God's work as best as they can and as best as they know how to do it. That also doesn't mean that God isn't in it and they aren't still His messengers.

Systemic changes often take decades or even centuries to accomplish. In the meantime, people have to work within the structure they've been handed. You have to work for change while you're still working with what you have.

There are some men who are no doubt in the pastoring field for the money and maybe even some perceived glamour, but that isn't the majority. It can't be, because most pastoring positions are markedly unglamorous and don't offer much in the way of monetary gain.

Regarding money...just a thought: My Dad struggled and got frustrated with people who didn't give tithes and offerings--not because HE wanted the money, but because there were church bills that had to be paid. When there wasn't enough money in the church coffers, he paid the bills out of his personal accounts, and often put tithes money right back into the church to cover mortgage payments, utilities, etc. Asking for money isn't always a sign of personal greed. In fact, IMO, it's unbiblical for a pastor to NEED to ask for money. If a local church was operating biblically, the saints would be dividing up the bills among themselves and paying for them. (Sharing things equally.) That load was never intended to be on the pastor alone.

[Esaias]

[Often unattainable] Ideals aside, I believe most pastors have good hearts and are in it for the right reasons. Even if the system is messed up, that doesn't mean they aren't doing God's work as best as they can and as best as they know how to do it. That also doesn't mean that God isn't in it and they aren't still His messengers.

Systemic changes often take decades or even centuries to accomplish. In the meantime, people have to work within the structure they've been handed. You have to work for change while you're still working with what you have.

There are some men who are no doubt in the pastoring field for the money and maybe even some perceived glamour, but that isn't the majority. It can't be, because most pastoring positions are markedly unglamorous and don't offer much in the way of monetary gain.

Regarding money...just a thought: My Dad struggled and got frustrated with people who didn't give tithes and offerings--not because HE wanted the money, but because there were church bills that had to be paid. When there wasn't enough money in the church coffers, he paid the bills out of his personal accounts, and often put tithes money right back into the church to cover mortgage payments, utilities, etc. Asking for money isn't always a sign of personal greed. In fact, IMO, it's unbiblical for a pastor to NEED to ask for money. If a local church was operating biblically, the saints would be dividing up the bills among themselves and paying for them. (Sharing things equally.) That load was never intended to be on the pastor alone.

Hi, I am Esaias, and I approve this post.

:thumbsup

[Michael The Disciple]

A Pastor is a Shepherd. He is first of all a friend. To shepherd someone is certainly not primarily a pulpit job.

[Michael The Disciple]

[Often unattainable] Ideals aside, I believe most pastors have good hearts and are in it for the right reasons. Even if the system is messed up, that doesn't mean they aren't doing God's work as best as they can and as best as they know how to do it. That also doesn't mean that God isn't in it and they aren't still His messengers.

Systemic changes often take decades or even centuries to accomplish. In the meantime, people have to work within the structure they've been handed. You have to work for change while you're still working with what you have.

There are some men who are no doubt in the pastoring field for the money and maybe even some perceived glamour, but that isn't the majority. It can't be, because most pastoring positions are markedly unglamorous and don't offer much in the way of monetary gain.

Regarding money...just a thought: My Dad struggled and got frustrated with people who didn't give tithes and offerings--not because HE wanted the money, but because there were church bills that had to be paid. When there wasn't enough money in the church coffers, he paid the bills out of his personal accounts, and often put tithes money right back into the church to cover mortgage payments, utilities, etc. Asking for money isn't always a sign of personal greed. In fact, IMO, it's unbiblical for a pastor to NEED to ask for money. If a local church was operating biblically, the saints would be dividing up the bills among themselves and paying for them. (Sharing things equally.) That load was never intended to be on the pastor alone.

It was designed by God that the Pastors (Elders) of the Church would work jobs just like the saints.

Observe Pauls admonition to the Ephesian Elders.

33 I have coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel. 34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. 35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. Acts 20:33-35

It would have been a perfect time to remind the Elders to exhort the saints to remember to pay their tithes. And yet instead he reminds THEM to work with their own hands as he was doing.

It seems to me this was what Paul ordained for the leadership.

[MissBrattified]

It was designed by God that the Pastors (Elders) of the Church would work jobs just like the saints.

Observe Pauls admonition to the Ephesian Elders.

33 I have coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel. 34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. 35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. Acts 20:33-35

It would have been a perfect time to remind the Elders to exhort the saints to remember to pay their tithes. And yet instead he reminds THEM to work with their own hands as he was doing.

It seems to me this was what Paul ordained for the leadership.

I agree that if a man has time and is able bodied, he should work. However, I don't think this passage is necessarily so much an encouragement to work to support oneself as an encouragement to put oneself to work for others. E.g., Paul was sharing his heart and his burden and wanting them to be a servant to the people. IMO, it is easier for a pastor to do that if it can be his full-time job. I don't believe Paul was saying to these men, "You have to work to support yourselves; don't let the saints support you." He was encouraging them to be servants, but he wasn't being dogmatic about how a pastor was to be supported.

Personally, I think that how a pastor is supported and to what extent he pastors (how many hours he spends on various things, etc) should be between him and the local congregation. Some congregations WANT a full-time pastor; others don't need it, want it, or may expect the pastor to provide/supplement his own income. It should be a mutually beneficial agreement between the leadership and the saints.

My point above, though, really had nothing to do with a pastor's salary or how he supports himself. I'm just pointing out that a lot of the pressure on pastors has to do with the saints not sharing in the financial load of the church. Scripture doesn't indicate that pastors are supposed to handle the church finances, but in many churches that is exactly what is expected--and the saints get angry if they are asked to contribute. In reality, any church bills that arise should be a shared responsibility among all of the members (including the leaders)--if you want to do it the NT way, that is. That pressure that has been placed on pastors/leadership to handle all the bills and funding is part of the reason for the money-begging problem in the first place.

[MissBrattified]

Hi, I am Esaias, and I approve this post.

:thumbsup

Thanks, Esaias. :)

[votivesoul]

I have no title, and yet I "tend as a shepherd" many people.

It comes down to just a few things:

Loving people enough to spend time with them, become their friend, invite them over, feed them, and share the Word of God as milk.

Behind the scenes, it also includes praying for them, fasting when necessary, studying the Word, living a holy life so as to be a vessel meet for the Master's use, and not quitting.

This idea that pastors are supposed to be these workaholic slaves to the Church, i.e. being psychologists, therapists, financial advisors, marriage counselors, mentors, life coaches, public relations specialists, business administrators, and all the other stuff is not in the Word.

Jesus gave Peter the jobs description right here:

John 21:15-17,

15. So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
16. He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
17. He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

To expect or demand more of a pastor than the simple feeding of the Lord's lambs and sheep is to go beyond what the Lord instituted.

[Abiding Now]

How do you 'pastor' somebody?

To really pastor little sheepies, the pastor absolutely needs a domineering, overbearing, spoiled wife. A wife that sleeps late, comes to service late and stays up late posting on FB and Pinerest. The wife MUST be a snob, treat the church members as if they owe her everything and her children are required to be spoiled brats that are too good to associate with the church kids.
AMAZING isn't it. The things one learns on a forum.


tic

[Esaias]

It was designed by God that the Pastors (Elders) of the Church would work jobs just like the saints.

Observe Pauls admonition to the Ephesian Elders.

33 I have coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel. 34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. 35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. Acts 20:33-35

It would have been a perfect time to remind the Elders to exhort the saints to remember to pay their tithes. And yet instead he reminds THEM to work with their own hands as he was doing.

It seems to me this was what Paul ordained for the leadership.

And Paul, being an apostle, had authority from Christ to institute binding obligatory practices upon the church, including the eldership. Thus Paul's words are the standard by which the church is to be judged, because they are Christ's words. "He that receiveth you receiveth me".

[Abiding Now]

I have heard that Bible school does not offer any real tangible help in pastoring people, but an extended course in the problem solving principles of Attila the Hun have been known to really assist a pastor when dealing with wayward church members.

[Abiding Now]

How do you 'pastor' somebody?

FIRST and this is an absolute FIRST, take their money, get as much as you can, then make unreasonable demands upon them for more money, call them names from the pulpit, don't let them go on vacations, intimidate them every Sunday and Wednesday. Ughhhh, at least that's what I read around here.

tic

Oh yeah, you tell them that you pastor the ONLY church where they can be saved and if they leave, they are reprobates. tic

How do you 'pastor' somebody?

To really pastor little sheepies, the pastor absolutely needs a domineering, overbearing, spoiled wife. A wife that sleeps late, comes to service late and stays up late posting on FB and Pinerest. The wife MUST be a snob, treat the church members as if they owe her everything and her children are required to be spoiled brats that are too good to associate with the church kids.
AMAZING isn't it. The things one learns on a forum.


tic

I have heard that Bible school does not offer any real tangible help in pastoring people, but an extended course in the problem solving principles of Attila the Hun have been known to really assist a pastor when dealing with wayward church members.

Well it looks like I killed this thread with my sterling advice and glorious insights on pastoring folks.

Sorry Esaias

[KeptByTheWord]

I have no title, and yet I "tend as a shepherd" many people.

It comes down to just a few things:

Loving people enough to spend time with them, become their friend, invite them over, feed them, and share the Word of God as milk.

Behind the scenes, it also includes praying for them, fasting when necessary, studying the Word, living a holy life so as to be a vessel meet for the Master's use, and not quitting.

This idea that pastors are supposed to be these workaholic slaves to the Church, i.e. being psychologists, therapists, financial advisors, marriage counselors, mentors, life coaches, public relations specialists, business administrators, and all the other stuff is not in the Word.

Jesus gave Peter the jobs description right here:

John 21:15-17,



To expect or demand more of a pastor than the simple feeding of the Lord's lambs and sheep is to go beyond what the Lord instituted.

That is why pastors have to constantly shift the focus from themselves to Christ. They have to teach the saint who wants to lift him up (out of a heartfelt sincerity of course) but, his responsibility is to turn their focus to Christ. A man who constantly receives accolades from those he is trying to help will fall under that burden of praise eventually. Souls who have been blessed by the ministry of a kind shepherd will naturally want to elevate that shepherd with praise, hero worship, gifts, and more, and sadly, the effects of those things have worn down many good men, and they have fallen prey to the praise of men.

Votive Soul, sounds like you have a true shepherd's heart. Just remember one thing (and I pray this for every pastor/shepherd on here, I wish them no harm) remember to never let the focus be about what "you" are doing, but always point those who would shower you with accolades ... point them to Christ. That is the way to keep a humble servant's heart, (which I believe your post indicates you desire this).

I read the book of Peter Marshall that Catherine wrote about her husband, and in that book, she quotes something he would say often... he said the greatest struggle of his ministry was to stay humble, especially when those he pastored, in their love and appreciation for him, wanted to elevate him, praise him, and worship him. Peter said the greatest accomplishment of his ministry would be if he could turn the love and adoration that the saints had for him, towards Christ, and help them see, it wasn't him doing the work, it was Christ.

May we all remember we are servants in the kingdom of Christ, and there should be no big "I"s or little "U"s. We are all part of the body of Christ, and certainly honor should be given where it is due, but not in such a way as to upset the balance of the body. We are ALL to be workers in the kingdom of Christ, each of us with different ministries, as 1 Cor. 12 teaches.

[KeptByTheWord]

It was designed by God that the Pastors (Elders) of the Church would work jobs just like the saints.

Observe Pauls admonition to the Ephesian Elders.

33 I have coveted no man’s silver, or gold, or apparel. 34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me. 35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. Acts 20:33-35

It would have been a perfect time to remind the Elders to exhort the saints to remember to pay their tithes. And yet instead he reminds THEM to work with their own hands as he was doing.

It seems to me this was what Paul ordained for the leadership.

Excellent teaching here.

[KeptByTheWord]

I found this prayer by Peter Marshall:

Lord, forgive me that when life’s circumstances lift me to the crest of the wave, I tend to forget Thee.

Yet, like an errant child, I have blamed Thee with my every failure, even as I credit myself with every success.

When my fears evaporate like the morning mist, then vainly I imagine that I am sufficient unto myself, that material resources and human resources are enough.

I need Thee when the sun shines, lest I forget the storm and the dark.

I need Thee when I am popular, when my friends and those who work beside me approve and compliment me.

I need Thee more then, lest my head begin to swell.

O God, forgive me for my stupidity, my blindness in success, my lack of trust in Thee.

Be Thou now my Savior in success. Save me from conceit. Save me from pettiness. Save me from myself!

And take this success, I pray, and use it for Thy glory. In Thy strength, I pray. Amen.

[DaveC519]

The problem is most 'pastors' on this board do not seem to match the biblical definition of 'pastor', in that most pastors on this board believe in and support the 'one man, one church' sole pastorship model rather than the biblical model.
My friend, the monarchical episcopate IS the biblical model. It is widely recognized that James the Lord's brother was the episcopos of Jerusalem, and that this existed from the beginning. In the churches Paul and his companions founded, a "committee" type of pastorship model existed. But these, too, later evolved into the single pastor model, as evidenced by Timothy and Titus' ministry.

As a result, their views as to what a pastor's job is, will likely be biased towards the particular model they are part of.Or rather, their views could be "biased" towards the biblical model (see above). You are "poisoning the well" with loaded terms.

Brother Epley's response demonstrates his concern for the spiritual well-being of the people who look to him as their shepherd. However, I can't help but think that brother Epley has limited himself because of his views on the nature of eldership, oversight, church structure, etc.This is nothing more than your own personal opinion.

"Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand." (Rom 14:4)

My personal experience has beenAnd now we get to the heart of the matter. Your "personal experience" has clouded an objective assessment and discussion of biblical "pastoring". But an exegesis of the Scriptures does not, and cannot, include subjectivism. We must draw conclusion solely on what's in the Word, not on what our "experience" has been.

that 'pastors' generally are focused on two things - Doing good sermons, and making sure everybody in the church is paying tithes and not rocking the boat.And here's what Paul had to say about that to the episcopos of Ephesus:

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry." (2 Tim 4:2-5)

The pastor has 'the vision' for the church, everybody else is a helpmate to achieve his vision. Anyone who has a different 'vision' is invited to find another church (or worse...).Solomon said where there is no "vision" (singular), the people perish (Pr 29:18). Paul admonished the churches to be in unity (1 Cor 1:10; Eph 4:3, etc.). Since it is God who sets up shepherds over his own flock (Jer. 3:15; 23:4), exactly whose "vision" should the flock have? Obviously, if God appoints and anoints the shepherds, and leads them to lead his flock (1 Pet 5:2), then the Pastor would receive the vision, and the flock would share in that vision.

I have personally known pastors who are wonderful Christians, and others who seem to be nothing more than hired help, managers running a businessAgain, personal experience does not equal objective exegesis. It is unfortunate that you have had bad experiences with pastors and/or churches, and I pray God grant you healing in your hurt.

but I have never seen a church functioning Biblically, with a plurality of elders having the oversight and teaching house to house (ie spending time with each family or household teaching them sound doctrine).Your assessment is incorrect (see above).

As someone pointed out on the other thread... 'who pastors the pastor?'That would be God himself. And make no mistake, it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a living God (Heb 10:31). As we see from Christ's letters to the seven churches of Asia, when the church itself is rebuked for its conduct, it is each church's pastor ("angels": Gr angelos = "messenger", ie- pastor) who is called on the carpet for it.

[votivesoul]

That is why pastors have to constantly shift the focus from themselves to Christ. They have to teach the saint who wants to lift him up (out of a heartfelt sincerity of course) but, his responsibility is to turn their focus to Christ. A man who constantly receives accolades from those he is trying to help will fall under that burden of praise eventually. Souls who have been blessed by the ministry of a kind shepherd will naturally want to elevate that shepherd with praise, hero worship, gifts, and more, and sadly, the effects of those things have worn down many good men, and they have fallen prey to the praise of men.

Votive Soul, sounds like you have a true shepherd's heart. Just remember one thing (and I pray this for every pastor/shepherd on here, I wish them no harm) remember to never let the focus be about what "you" are doing, but always point those who would shower you with accolades ... point them to Christ. That is the way to keep a humble servant's heart, (which I believe your post indicates you desire this).

I read the book of Peter Marshall that Catherine wrote about her husband, and in that book, she quotes something he would say often... he said the greatest struggle of his ministry was to stay humble, especially when those he pastored, in their love and appreciation for him, wanted to elevate him, praise him, and worship him. Peter said the greatest accomplishment of his ministry would be if he could turn the love and adoration that the saints had for him, towards Christ, and help them see, it wasn't him doing the work, it was Christ.

May we all remember we are servants in the kingdom of Christ, and there should be no big "I"s or little "U"s. We are all part of the body of Christ, and certainly honor should be given where it is due, but not in such a way as to upset the balance of the body. We are ALL to be workers in the kingdom of Christ, each of us with different ministries, as 1 Cor. 12 teaches.

Thanks, Kept.

You're preaching what I preach, indeed, what the Spirit says to me regularly.

I am a worm and not a man. I have nothing to glory of. Like Paul, I still remember a time when I was the chief sinner.

[KeptByTheWord]

Thanks, Kept.

You're preaching what I preach, indeed, what the Spirit says to me regularly.

I am a worm and not a man. I have nothing to glory of. Like Paul, I still remember a time when I was the chief sinner.

And I as well, have nothing to glory of. The Lord's mercies are new to me every morning, and I praise Him for it all.

There is another pastor on here who posts, Been Thinkin, and I respect his humble walk with the Lord too, and I know there are more.

I think this open Biblical discussion about humble leadership is a way to help pastors begin to understand that they are just human, just like their saints, and that keeping a humble focus on Christ will balance their ministry.

[Esaias]

My friend, the monarchical episcopate IS the biblical model. It is widely recognized that James the Lord's brother was the episcopos of Jerusalem, and that this existed from the beginning. In the churches Paul and his companions founded, a "committee" type of pastorship model existed. But these, too, later evolved into the single pastor model, as evidenced by Timothy and Titus' ministry.

Utter nonsense. The first council (Acts 15) proves the church was ruled by a plurality of elders. Paul and Barnabas appointed elders in 'every church'. The elders are those who 'rule' in the church. Timothy and Titus were part of the APOSTOLIC ministry of establishing churches, including ordaining elders (plural) in the church.

The 'monarchical episcopate; can be historically traced to the polemics found in Ignatius' writings.

Furthermore, as I already proved the modern 'single pastor model' is in direct opposition to Jesus' express command that those who are to be in leadership positions in the church are NOT to follow the gentile pattern of 'exercising authority upon' those whom they lead. This is the elephant in the room nobody seems to want to deal with.

The Bible is clear - the church is led by elders who are to serve as SERVANTS (diakonoi) of all.

You can't see that, but more and more people are waking up and leaving the pseudo-catholic modern church paradigm in search of the bible way.

[Originalist]

"Without a VISION the people perish " is not referring to a "vision" in the sense of a dream or objective to be sought after. Rather, it is referring to the Old Testament office of prophet. Without a prophetic vision and word from a prophet, the people would perish.

Thus this statement cannot be somehow twisted as a condoning of the authoritarian model of "pastor" used in many modern churches.

[Esaias]

"Without a VISION the people perish " is not referring to a "vision" in the sense of a dream or objective to be sought after. Rather, it is referring to the Old Testament office of prophet. Without a prophetic vision and word from a prophet, the people would perish.

Thus this statement cannot be somehow twisted as a condoning of the authoritarian model of "pastor" used in many modern churches.

Obviously you're just a bitter anarchist, like me.

:icecream

[Abiding Now]

I've had some fun on this thread, but I'm serious here, this thread has been interesting and has me wondering about a few things.

A Few Question.

1. These elders that rule in the local church are they laity or ministry?

2. How many elders are needed to fulfill the NT example of elder rule?

3. How are elders selected to rule in the local church?

4. Is there an age requirement?

5. What about their marriage status.

Anyone.

[DaveC519]

Utter nonsense. The first council (Acts 15) proves the church was ruled by a plurality of elders.
No, Acts 15 proves the mother church in Jerusalem CONTAINED apostles and elders, of which James was their leader. After the Pharisees, Peter, and Paul and Barnabas all had their say, it was James who had the last word, and it was at his direction ("wherefore MY sentence is"- vs. 19) that the letter to the Gentile believers was written.

James was appointed by special appearance of the resurrected savior (1Cor 15:7). When Peter was released from prison, he instructed those of John Mark's household to "go shew these things unto James, and unto the brethren".

After Paul's conversion, he at first associated with none of the apostles but Peter and then, specifically, James (Gal 1:18-19). Before the first Jerusalem council, when certain believers of the circumcision came to Antioch, Paul identified them as those who had "come from James" (Gal 2:12).

Upon Paul's final return to Jerusalem in Acts 21, he presented himself to the church, specifically to James (vs. 18).

So, we see James was indeed the head of the mother church in Jerusalem.

Paul and Barnabas appointed elders in 'every church'. The elders are those who 'rule' in the church. Timothy and Titus were part of the APOSTOLIC ministry of establishing churches, including ordaining elders (plural) in the church.And, as I previously posted, I don't disagree with this. The apostles themselves, specifically Paul, served as the first proto-pastors over the churches they established, appointing elders to serve in their absence. But we ALSO see that in the church at Ephesus, an already established congregation who previously had "overseers" (episkopoi = bishops, Acts 20:28), that Paul later places Timothy as its pastor (singular).

The 'monarchical episcopate; can be historically traced to the polemics found in Ignatius' writings.Clement of Rome speaks directly to this (44), that the office of Bishop was appointed and filled by the Apostles themselves, these being their immediate successors. Eusebius provides a list (History, ch. V) of the bishops of the Jerusalem church, James being the first.

Furthermore, as I already proved the modern 'single pastor model' is in direct opposition to Jesus' express command that those who are to be in leadership positions in the church are NOT to follow the gentile pattern of 'exercising authority upon' those whom they lead. This is the elephant in the room nobody seems to want to deal with.

The Bible is clear - the church is led by elders who are to serve as SERVANTS (diakonoi) of all.Please show where I said that the single pastor model should follow the Gentile pattern? Pastors should follow the model set down in the scriptures I've previously quoted, specifically, 1 Pet 5.

You can't see that, but more and more people are waking up and leaving the pseudo-catholic modern church paradigm in search of the bible way.My friend, I see all too clearly the very attitude that Clement specifically admonished in the church at Corinth. Yes, it is unfortunate that there are pastors who do not lead according to the servant model set forth in Scripture. But that does not mean we throw the baby out with the bath water. God will most certainly bring these abusers into judgment (Ezek 34:10). Instead, we pray that God set over his flock shepherds according to his will, for his purposes, that will feed his flock as he commanded (Jer 23:4; Ezek 34:15).

[DaveC519]

"Without a VISION the people perish " is not referring to a "vision" in the sense of a dream or objective to be sought after. Rather, it is referring to the Old Testament office of prophet. Without a prophetic vision and word from a prophet, the people would perish.

Thus this statement cannot be somehow twisted as a condoning of the authoritarian model of "pastor" used in many modern churches.
LOL, if you'll go back and read my post, I said the pastor would "receive" the "vision". That means the vision has to come from God. And, no, I wasn't speaking of a "dream" or "objective". I was speaking of the very clear, and yes- prophetic- mandate that MUST come from God to his people for their direction of ministry. This will come through the Pastor. That is not to say others will not participate in receiving prophetic direction. But it will all point in the same direction, and will be mutually confirmed.

[Nitehawk013]

The single pastor model is a great model...for the man on top with all the power.

[DaveC519]

The single pastor model is a great model...for the man on top with all the power.
For those pastors who treat their role as such, God will most definitely bring into judgment (Ezek 34:10).

The scriptural model of leadership (Mt 20:25-28; 1 Pet 5:1-3) is an inverted pyramid, meaning the one "on top" is really on the bottom and servant of all. For every example of an abuse of this, I have no doubt there are a hundred- or even a thousand- unsung examples of Godly pastors with true servant hearts feeding the flock in the manner set forth in Scripture. Rather than only focusing on the bad apples, let us focus even more on the good ones!

[RandyWayne]

For those pastors who treat their role as such, God will most definitely bring into judgment (Ezek 34:10).

The scriptural model of leadership (Mt 20:25-28; 1 Pet 5:1-3) is an inverted pyramid, meaning the one "on top" is really on the bottom and servant of all. For every example of an abuse of this, I have no doubt there are a hundred- or even a thousand- unsung examples of Godly pastors with true servant hearts feeding the flock in the manner set forth in Scripture. Rather than only focusing on the bad apples, let us focus even more on the good ones!

I do agree with this. Just like when I worked in retail, I knew there were 10-100 good customers for every bad one that wanted to make me tear my hair out at the end of the day, but those bad ones were the only ones I remembered, and really REALLY got under my skin.

[KeptByTheWord]

For those pastors who treat their role as such, God will most definitely bring into judgment (Ezek 34:10).

The scriptural model of leadership (Mt 20:25-28; 1 Pet 5:1-3) is an inverted pyramid, meaning the one "on top" is really on the bottom and servant of all. For every example of an abuse of this, I have no doubt there are a hundred- or even a thousand- unsung examples of Godly pastors with true servant hearts feeding the flock in the manner set forth in Scripture. Rather than only focusing on the bad apples, let us focus even more on the good ones!

This is true, I like the inverted pyramid model. That is biblical, but the problem still remains that one bad apple spoils the whole bag. One piece of mold spoils the whole loaf of bread. Trying not to toss the baby out with the bath water is hard when you have these kind of situations.

[DanShaf]

"And he gave some,apostles;and some,prophets;and some,evangelists;and some,pastors and teachers; Eph 4:11 is as far as I know the single use of the word in the NT...And I believe,considering the punctuation,pastor and teacher are the same.This does not diminish the role of what we call pastors,but I believe that in the New Testament church,the roles might not have been as firmly fixed as they are in our minds..I commonly remind the folks that gather with us in our small country church, that they can call me what they want. They can accept my leadership if they wish. I TEACH strong doctrine! Sometimes they leave temporarily, (except for a nucleus) but some keep coming around and they have to hear truth if they are there. In my opinion, I am an elder that labors in the word and doctrine. I learned long ago, that I could not force anyone to do anything!